Time Lords weren't actually losing the Time War (Doctor Who Theory)

[Drolyt]

Spoiler for the latest Doctor Who Special
My theory is that the Time Lords were doing just fine. Rassilon used it as an excuse for his his end of time plan.

[kamikasei]

I would suggest you put something like "[spoilers for latest Dr Who finale]" in the thread title so that discussion can take place without spoilers here.

Is this a pet theory of yours (tell us more!) or something you want to claim as fact (back it up!)? Either way, give us a little more to work with!

[Starscream]

The Time Lords were doing just fine. Rassilon used it as an excuse for his his end of time plan.

Could be. It would certainly fit in with the more Machiavellian attitude they sometimes display. I imagine the Daleks were holding their own, though.

Incidentally, the producers of the show once said that it was the Time Lords who "fired the first shot" so to speak. When they sent the Doctor back in Genesis of the Daleks to prevent them from ever existing, it began the conflict between the races.

Maybe the Time Lords knew that the Doctor would not have it in him to commit genocide, even against the Daleks. They sent him knowing that his actions would eventually provoke a war, giving them the excuse they needed.

Edit:
Ooh! Here's a thought. In the original series, the Daleks were plenty dangerous but possessed nowhere near the universe ending levels of technology they have in the new series. Maybe the Time Lords intentionally leaked some of their technological secrets to the Daleks in order to escalate the conflict and make the situation seem desperate enough to execute their ultimate plan.

[Drolyt]

I would suggest you put something like "[spoilers for latest Dr Who finale]" in the thread title so that discussion can take place without spoilers here.

Is this a pet theory of yours (tell us more!) or something you want to claim as fact (back it up!)? Either way, give us a little more to work with!

Clarified that. There isn't much evidence for my theory, but it seems impossible that the Time Lords, with all their ridiculous technology lost to those tin cans. Not that I don't like the Daleks, but prior to the revival they were never shown to be anywhere near the Time Lords (no one was, except maybe the black and white guardians). Especially given what Rose did in the first season, why couldn't the Time Lords become vengeful gods? No, I think the war might have gone ill for them at first but I doubt they had any chance of actually losing. The real reason the Doctor wiped them all out was to stop the Time Lords, not the Daleks.

[The Big Dice]

I'd say there was a very good chance the time Lords were losing the Time War. After all, they hadn't been in a conflict since the war to wipe out the Great Vampires and when the Sontarans invaded Gallifrey in The Invasion of Time, they really didn't have the weaponry or the will to put up any kind of a fight.

That's why they'd want to resurrect people like the Master and Rassilon. People who are willing and able to fight. And in the case of Rassilon, who designed technology so ancient that the Time Lords have forgotten what it's really for. Some of which included weapons capable of wiping the target from history.

The Daleks, on the other hand, are inventive, vicious and aggressive. Sure, they lack a billion years of history and technology compared to the Time Lords. But, they're smart and inventive and they excel at war in a way that the Time Lords don't. And they have access to reliable time travel technology.

Personally, I think that the Time Lords plan stank of desperation. If the Daleks had won the Time War, there would be peace. All other races would be subjugated or exterminated and Daleks would be supreme.

Rather than face that (and be top of the extermination list) the Time Lords came up with a plan where they would be the only survivors from the universe. Which isn't too different from what the Daleks planned to do in The Stolen Earth. That's not something you'd come up with if you were in position to win a war like that.

[DraPrime]

I'm gonna have to agree with The Big Dice. The conclusion that I got from watching that episode was that desperation from losing simply drove them totally mad, which is why the Doctor went ahead and blew up everybody.

[Drolyt]

I'd say there was a very good chance the time Lords were losing the Time War. After all, they hadn't been in a conflict since the war to wipe out the Great Vampires and when the Sontarans invaded Gallifrey in The Invasion of Time, they really didn't have the weaponry or the will to put up any kind of a fight.

That's why they'd want to resurrect people like the Master and Rassilon. People who are willing and able to fight. And in the case of Rassilon, who designed technology so ancient that the Time Lords have forgotten what it's really for. Some of which included weapons capable of wiping the target from history.

The Daleks, on the other hand, are inventive, vicious and aggressive. Sure, they lack a billion years of history and technology compared to the Time Lords. But, they're smart and inventive and they excel at war in a way that the Time Lords don't. And they have access to reliable time travel technology.

Personally, I think that the Time Lords plan stank of desperation. If the Daleks had won the Time War, there would be peace. All other races would be subjugated or exterminated and Daleks would be supreme.

Rather than face that (and be top of the extermination list) the Time Lords came up with a plan where they would be the only survivors from the universe. Which isn't too different from what the Daleks planned to do in The Stolen Earth. That's not something you'd come up with if you were in position to win a war like that.

You make good points, but the Time Lords capabilities were portrayed inconsistently. In the novels especially they were practically gods. As for the fact that the plan was a repeat of last season's finale, at worst RTD needed to step down because he was out of ideas and at best it was a not so different moment for the Time Lords/Daleks. As to whether they would do that if they were in a position to win, I don't think the Time Lord High Command cared about other sentient species. I bet the only reason they never tried something like that before is because Time Lords like Rommana, the Doctor, and the Doctor's former self of the Other would have stopped them. Rommana and the Doctor both held the position of top time lord at different points after all. I think the Time Lords were in a tight spot, but I really doubt they were going to lose. After all by the time the Doctor pulled that stunt and destroyed them all Davros was dead and Skarro was gone, but Gallifrey still stood.

[Haven]

at best it was a not so different moment for the Time Lords/Daleks

Huh, hadn't thought of it like that. Neat!

[comicshorse]

While I agree with everything Big Dice side, his arguments only apply to the rather decadent Time Lords . I can't see Rassillon lacking the will or imagination to take the war to the Daleks. So it is possible that while Rassillon could have turned things around he deliberately let them get to the point where the Time Lords only choice was to go along with his plan to ascend. OR that by the time he turned up ( and I for one can't wait for the story to see how that happened) things were so far gone he couldn't reverse them
Incidentally as the Master did rip a whole in the Time Lock for a few minutes any bets that's how they get the Daleks back in for the next series

[Drolyt]

While I agree with everything Big Dice side, his arguments only apply to the rather decadent Time Lords . I can't see Rassillon lacking the will or imagination to take the war to the Daleks. So it is possible that while Rassillon could have turned things around he deliberately let them get to the point where the Time Lords only choice was to go along with his plan to ascend. OR that by the time he turned up ( and I for one can't wait for the story to see how that happened) things were so far gone he couldn't reverse them
Incidentally as the Master did rip a whole in the Time Lock for a few minutes any bets that's how they get the Daleks back in for the next series

Good points. I too really want to know how they managed to pull off that bit with Rassillon. Seriously though, the 10th Doctor's human clone thingy destroyed the entire Dalek fleet in the series 4 specials, and the 8th/9th apparently had a device capable of wiping out both the Daleks and the Time Lords, even given that he is a rarity one should think that Rassillon at least could have defeated the Daleks, and if not him Rommana or maybe the Rani (not sure what happened to her). The Master too (that's why they thought he was the perfect warrior), but he was too worried about his own skin. As a side note, I thought the Master's redemption was BRILLIANT, but now I'm worried they won't be able to bring him back as a villain and still make sense... he was my favorite villain...

[The Big Dice]

First off, forget the novels and anything to do with the Cartmel Master Plan. Time Lords are born, not grown in looms. When debating canon, anything seen on screen trumps anything in other media. Susan being the Doctor's grand daughter along with the way Gallifreyans are initiated before the Untempered Schism and the revelation of the Woman being the Doctor's mother put any connections to Lungbarrow and the Other to rest. That stuff is fanon, not canon.

As for the power of the Time Lords, it depends if you look at it from an inside or an outside perspective. From the outside, they are capable of time looping entire planets, putting forcefields around worlds to contain them and interrupting a transmat beam to redirect it not only across interstellar space, but across time as well. That's pretty impressive. And there's things like the Transduction Barrier, an almost impenetrable force field that protects Gallifrey. Time Lord technology is godlike in power.

They had a black hole under their Citadel as a power source. They called it the Eye of Harmony and by the time of the Doctor, most Time Lords thought it was nothing but a legend. They had insane amounts of power, and had been around for so long, as well as being cut off by their own choice for so long, they'd forgotten more than most species ever learn.

But from the inside, they've got a combination of absolute power and near total isolation from the rest of the universe. Rather than exercise their power for the good of all, they instead squabbled and bickered among themselves, with only a few renegades leaving Gallifrey. Borusa's fall from being a great teacher and statesman to wanting absolute power for himself is probably the most obvious example of what Time Lord isolationism did to them.

As for the how of the Doctor destroying the Dalek fleet and Gallifrey at the same time, he probably used the Hand of Omega. He'd already used it to send Skaro's sun nova. The repeated description of both races burning strongly implies that he used the Hand to detonate Gallifrey's sun.

Ressurecting people like Rassilon and the Master would be child's play to the Time Lords. They had the Matrix, a computer system that contained the minds of thousands of dead Time Lords, including Rassilon. Creating a new body and downloading the mind into it should be fairly simple for them. Assuming they didn't simply break their own laws and travel back in time to bring him back directly.

But they were fighting the Daleks. A race who are inventive and inquisitive, capable of reproducing time travel technology and using it to chase the First Doctor all around time and space. Sure, they might be rabidly xenophobic and obsessed with racial purity, but that's all about the creature in the shell. And those creatures have always been depicted as being scientifically advanced.

Think about how you'd fight a time war. It's not just about vast battle fleets blazing across space and huge armies slugging it out on the ground. That stuff is for Star Wars. Instead, you'd have forces travelling through time trying to rewrite history itself. Something the Daleks have already shown themselves to be willing to do. In Day of the Daleks, they had conquered the Earth years before the conquest shown in the Dalek Invasion of Earth.

In fact, it's possible to look at the broadcast history of Dalek stories and incorporate many of them into the Last Great Time War. Genesis of the Daleks might have been the opening salvo, but stories like The Chase and Remembrance of the Daleks coming from the earliest days and the end of the original run of Doctor Who can be seen as battles in the Time War.

My take on things is, the war was raging unchecked across the whole of time and space. No clear victory for either side was achievable, so the Daleks hit on the idea of wiping out the Time Lords directly. The Time Lords learned of the Dalek plan and in an act of sheer desperation they came up with the idea of ending time. The Doctor probably tried to talk them out of the madness, but when he realised he had no other option, he said "I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry" and told the Hand of Omega to send Gallifrey's star into a supernova once the Dalek fleet commenced it's atack.

[Drolyt]

First off, forget the novels and anything to do with the Cartmel Master Plan. Time Lords are born, not grown in looms. When debating canon, anything seen on screen trumps anything in other media. Susan being the Doctor's grand daughter along with the way Gallifreyans are initiated before the Untempered Schism and the revelation of the Woman being the Doctor's mother put any connections to Lungbarrow and the Other to rest. That stuff is fanon, not canon.

As for the power of the Time Lords, it depends if you look at it from an inside or an outside perspective. From the outside, they are capable of time looping entire planets, putting forcefields around worlds to contain them and interrupting a transmat beam to redirect it not only across interstellar space, but across time as well. That's pretty impressive. And there's things like the Transduction Barrier, an almost impenetrable force field that protects Gallifrey. Time Lord technology is godlike in power.

They had a black hole under their Citadel as a power source. They called it the Eye of Harmony and by the time of the Doctor, most Time Lords thought it was nothing but a legend. They had insane amounts of power, and had been around for so long, as well as being cut off by their own choice for so long, they'd forgotten more than most species ever learn.

But from the inside, they've got a combination of absolute power and near total isolation from the rest of the universe. Rather than exercise their power for the good of all, they instead squabbled and bickered among themselves, with only a few renegades leaving Gallifrey. Borusa's fall from being a great teacher and statesman to wanting absolute power for himself is probably the most obvious example of what Time Lord isolationism did to them.

As for the how of the Doctor destroying the Dalek fleet and Gallifrey at the same time, he probably used the Hand of Omega. He'd already used it to send Skaro's sun nova. The repeated description of both races burning strongly implies that he used the Hand to detonate Gallifrey's sun.

Ressurecting people like Rassilon and the Master would be child's play to the Time Lords. They had the Matrix, a computer system that contained the minds of thousands of dead Time Lords, including Rassilon. Creating a new body and downloading the mind into it should be fairly simple for them. Assuming they didn't simply break their own laws and travel back in time to bring him back directly.

But they were fighting the Daleks. A race who are inventive and inquisitive, capable of reproducing time travel technology and using it to chase the First Doctor all around time and space. Sure, they might be rabidly xenophobic and obsessed with racial purity, but that's all about the creature in the shell. And those creatures have always been depicted as being scientifically advanced.

Think about how you'd fight a time war. It's not just about vast battle fleets blazing across space and huge armies slugging it out on the ground. That stuff is for Star Wars. Instead, you'd have forces travelling through time trying to rewrite history itself. Something the Daleks have already shown themselves to be willing to do. In Day of the Daleks, they had conquered the Earth years before the conquest shown in the Dalek Invasion of Earth.

In fact, it's possible to look at the broadcast history of Dalek stories and incorporate many of them into the Last Great Time War. Genesis of the Daleks might have been the opening salvo, but stories like The Chase and Remembrance of the Daleks coming from the earliest days and the end of the original run of Doctor Who can be seen as battles in the Time War.

My take on things is, the war was raging unchecked across the whole of time and space. No clear victory for either side was achievable, so the Daleks hit on the idea of wiping out the Time Lords directly. The Time Lords learned of the Dalek plan and in an act of sheer desperation they came up with the idea of ending time. The Doctor probably tried to talk them out of the madness, but when he realised he had no other option, he said "I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry" and told the Hand of Omega to send Gallifrey's star into a supernova once the Dalek fleet commenced it's atack.

I agree with the fanon thing, and I always thought the loom thing was... weird. Still, DW never had a set canon, and the Cartmel Master Plan had nothing to do with the novels, it was what was intended for the show before it was canceled. At any rate you go near my point: if the Doctor with the Hand of Omega could wipe out both races, Rassillon, the founder of time lord society, should be able to do something similar to just the Daleks. Really, if they could destroy all of time in desperation, they should be able to target the Daleks locally.

[comicshorse]

In the special one of the Time-Lord High Coucil made reference to the Doctor stealing 'The Moment' and intending to use it

[Drolyt]

In the special one of the Time-Lord High Coucil made reference to the Doctor stealing 'The Moment' and intending to use it

I have yet to find any clues as to what that might be. If anyone finds anything let me know.

[The Big Dice]

I agree with the fanon thing, and I always thought the loom thing was... weird. Still, DW never had a set canon, and the Cartmel Master Plan had nothing to do with the novels, it was what was intended for the show before it was canceled. At any rate you go near my point: if the Doctor with the Hand of Omega could wipe out both races, Rassillon, the founder of time lord society, should be able to do something similar to just the Daleks. Really, if they could destroy all of time in desperation, they should be able to target the Daleks locally.

Canon is what you see on the screen. It really started being an issue in the 70s, when the Doctor Who Appreciation Society started up. Back in the 80s, the producers of the show were often a bit too self referential as well. Quite often bringing up things from the show's history for no real reason other than they could. It got quite annoying.

The Cartmel Master Plan heavily informed the novels, especially the New Adventures line. His idea was to make the Doctor more than "just a Time Lord" and to restore some mystery to a character that he felt had probably had too much about him revealed over the past 25 years. That's what the whole thing with the Other was, and maybe it could have worked if the show had gone on.

The thing with the Hand of Omega was, it's a remote stellar manipulator. The only way it would be useful as a war ending weapon of mass destruction is if all the forces were gathered in a single place. And if the Daleks saw in the timey-wimey stuff that time was going to come to an end, maybe that's what triggered the decision to attack Gallifrey with everything they had.

And gave the Doctor the opportunity to end the war.

As for the Doctor "having the moment" I think that Time Lord woman, who reminded me a lot of Dalek Kaan, had forseen how the war was going to end. And that's what led to Rassilon's decision to use a final sanction.

[chiasaur11]

Doctor Who canon can be summed up as follows:

Noddy is non-canon. Everything else?

Canon. Even the stuff that contradicts itself.

I officially love Doctor Who Canonicicity policy.

[The Big Dice]

Doctor Who canon can be summed up as follows:

Noddy is non-canon. Everything else?

Canon. Even the stuff that contradicts itself.

I officially love Doctor Who Canonicicity policy.

That's Steven Moffat for you. It's a time travel show that delights in altering history, so canon is what they decide it is.

[Starscream]

I officially love Doctor Who Canonicicity policy.

Me too. Any other show would probably ignore the 1996 movie because nobody ever saw it. But no, the 8th Doctor apparently happened. We just pretend the whole "half-human" thing didn't because those words are blasphemy!!!

[The Big Dice]

Me too. Any other show would probably ignore the 1996 movie because nobody ever saw it. But no, the 8th Doctor apparently happened. We just pretend the whole "half-human" thing didn't because those words are blasphemy!!!

It was regeneration confusion. Or script writers that thought making him half human would endear the character to the US audience. As if there's any chance of that when your pilot is shown opposite the Superbowl.

I did read something about it being due to a malfunctioning Chameleon Arch, but ultimately it doesn't matter.

Also, for ultimate 8th Doctor action, check out the BBC webcast of Shada, the unfinished episode.

[industrious]

Eight was wearing a pocket watch; it was all part of Seven's plan to confuse the Master. Would have worked if not for that kid who stole the Doctor's screwdriver.

[Drolyt]

As if there's any chance of that when your pilot is shown opposite the Superbowl.


Are you expletive serious? I knew it bombed, but I didn't realize they made any marketing decisions that insane. Edit: As for the "Moment" it might not be some sort of time lord artifact but simply be that the Doctor has his chance, as in the moment is his. That's not how I interpreted it at first, but it might be right.

[Scorpina]

To return to the point of the original post, I'd suggest that the Time Lord's weren't losing the Time War - but they weren't winning either. From what The Doctor said, it seemed like

Neither side was anywhere near winning, and there was a hell of a lot of firepower being deployed on both sides but that didn't do anything to break the whole stalemate/mutally assured destruction thing they had going on. Thus the 'Ultimate Sanction' seems to have been the only way to end it. I'm really not sure who 'The Could've Been King and his Army of Meanwhiles and Never Weres' are, but they sound pretty important - and as for 'The Nighmare Child', 'The Skaro Degradations' and 'The Hoards of Travesty'... yeah, bad stuff is going down there.

Not that I'm ruling out Rassilon beign a Magnificent Bastard, of course, but I don't think you can suggest that the Time War was going well for Gallifrey.

Unless The Doctor was lying...

[Drolyt]

I don't think the time war was going too well for the Time Lords, I just highly doubt they were that close to losing. As for "The Could've Been King and his Army of Meanwhiles and Never Weres" "The Nightmare Child", "The Skaro Degradations", and "The Hoards of Travesty", I've rethought some things and the way the Doctor and the Master talk about them makes me think they weren't all Dalek inventions. Maybe something else was going on in the last great time war...

[mshady]

I thought Rassilon was immortal and not bound by the "normal" Time Lord regeneration cycle?

For that matter, I wonder what happens when the 12th Doctor dies and how he'll live on? If that really will be the end. Doubt it :)

Mike

[Starscream]

For that matter, I wonder what happens when the 12th Doctor dies and how he'll live on? If that really will be the end. Doubt it :)

13th. He gets 12 regenerations, for a total of 13 lives.

Yeah, I bet they find a way to keep going. It was already implied in The Five Doctors that it is possible for a Time Lord to be given another regeneration cycle. We've just never seen it done.

Incidentally, in between his 12th and final life, the Doctor is supposed to be destined to become an evil being known as the Valeyard. Don't know if that's still going to happen, his defeat might have averted his existence.

Still, I doubt they'll stop at 13. And I hope they won't. With any luck, my grandchildren will be watching holographic Doctor Who someday.:smallsmile:

[kamikasei]

...I've rethought some things and the way the Doctor and the Master talk about them makes me think they weren't all Dalek inventions.

I assumed they were all Time Lord inventions, actually.

[comicshorse]

As for "The Could've Been King and his Army of Meanwhiles and Never Weres" "The Nightmare Child", "The Skaro Degradations", and "The Hoards of Travesty", I've rethought some things and the way the Doctor and the Master talk about them makes me think they weren't all Dalek inventions. Maybe something else was going on in the last great time war...

I assumed this were horrible aberations created by the Time-Lords and Daleks messing with Time in the war


For that matter, I wonder what happens when the 12th Doctor dies and how he'll live on? If that really will be the end. Doubt it :)

I'm pretty sure the Master has already gone beyond his 13 lives and through a combination of body-stealing (The Keeper of Traken) and messing with stellar forces ( The Deadly Assassin) he seems to have managed so I'm sure the Doctor can think of something

[The Big Dice]

I'm sure there was all kinds of crazy messed up stuff going on in the Time War. It seems many of the advanced races either knew about it and couldn't take part for some reason, like the Sontarans, or they got caught in the crossfire, like the Gelth and Nestene.

I just hope they don't go into too much detail about the Time War. It would suck knowing exactly what happened. And if they bring back the Time Lords, it would suck even more. Back in the day, the Doctor needed that bit of mystery and edginess that came from being a renegade from his people. But no, he needs the mystery and edginess that comes from being the last of them.

[comicshorse]

Apart from the Rani, they've got to bring back the Rani

[Drolyt]

Apart from the Rani, they've got to bring back the Rani

That would be cool. And of course the Master can't stay dead.

[Mercenary Pen]

That would be cool. And of course the Master can't stay dead.

Of course not. Near dead, I'll grant you (survival just gives him another reason to be the bad guy), but not out and out "six feet under pushing up the daisies" dead.

[Drolyt]

I'm sure there was all kinds of crazy messed up stuff going on in the Time War. It seems many of the advanced races either knew about it and couldn't take part for some reason, like the Sontarans, or they got caught in the crossfire, like the Gelth and Nestene.

I just hope they don't go into too much detail about the Time War. It would suck knowing exactly what happened. And if they bring back the Time Lords, it would suck even more. Back in the day, the Doctor needed that bit of mystery and edginess that came from being a renegade from his people. But no, he needs the mystery and edginess that comes from being the last of them.

I think this is part of what ruined old who, and why both the Cartmell Master Plan and the Last Great Time War were conceived. However, during Who's greatest popularity during the Tom Baker years there was hardly any mystery at all. At any rate the problem is similar to that Tolkien faced when writing appendices for the Lord of the Rings: to those who love the feeling of awe and mystery its just a horrible idea, while those who want to know everything will simply keep demanding more, never satisfied until your work is more detailed than the real world. I have the ill chance of falling somewhere in between, I want all that info to be revealed, but I want it to happen slowly, so that in the meantime I can still have my wonder and mystery and awe.

[Scorpina]

If any Time Lord is coming back, I want it to be Romana, she's so awesome.

But yeah, knowing too much about the Time Lords can be a bit of a problem. I prefer at least a little mystery, myself.

[Drolyt]

If any Time Lord is coming back, I want it to be Romana, she's so awesome.

But yeah, knowing too much about the Time Lords can be a bit of a problem. I prefer at least a little mystery, myself.

I would love it if Romana came back, but it took enough hand waiving to bring back the Master. At least the Rani could claim she was using some sort of tech to escape the Time War, and it makes more sense for a renegade to have been far away from the Time War anyways.

[Scorpina]

There's no definate canon that Romana ever came back from E-Space, though, so it's entirely possible that she was still there during, and after, The Time War. So, I'd think that'd explain her still being alive easily enough.

[Drolyt]

There's no definate canon that Romana ever came back from E-Space, though, so it's entirely possible that she was still there during, and after, The Time War. So, I'd think that'd explain her still being alive easily enough.

Honestly I'm confused on that point, I had heard that she came back and was Lady President during the Time War, but now we see Rassilon as Lord President, and besides that, I don't remember where I heard that. I suppose if she was still in E-Space maybe the Doctor couldn't detect her. I wonder if that applies to alternate universes as well? It seems likely that the Time Lords and the Daleks were removed from all universes, but would the Doctor know if there was a survivor in another universe? After all he doesn't have the capability to traverse them easily.

[The_Admiral]

The time lords were politicians Romania must have been ousted.

[Drolyt]

As a side note, The Moment may have been a modified De-Mat Gun (I think that's right), a gun that could erase someone from time. Apparently the Doctor had something to do with the Medusa Cascade being out of sync, and the Cascade had something to do with him ending the Time War.

[The Big Dice]

Apart from the Rani, they've got to bring back the Rani

Please don't bring the Rani back. She was embarrassing. Especially the way she dressed up and pretended to be Bonnie Langford.

[Drolyt]

Please don't bring the Rani back. She was embarrassing. Especially the way she dressed up and pretended to be Bonnie Langford.

Yeah they would have to revise her character a bit, she was never as awesome as the Master, but given how awesome the John Simm master was I think they could pull it off. It would if nothing else give them new villains to work with so they don't have to keep bringing back the Daleks.

[Androgeus]

Yeah they would have to revise her character a bit, she was never as awesome as the Master, but given how awesome the John Simm master was I think they could pull it off. It would if nothing else give them new villains to work with so they don't have to keep bringing back the Daleks.

What do you mean don't bring back the Daleks? You have to keep bringing them back so that they can cause greater trouble and then be defeated in an even more elaborte way so that when they come back next time it's even more surprising!

[Drolyt]

What do you mean don't bring back the Daleks? You have to keep bringing them back so that they can cause greater trouble and then be defeated in an even more elaborte way so that when they come back next time it's even more surprising!

I find it hard to tell when reading, but I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic. That said, I think the Daleks should come back, just not every season, and they shouldn't steal the show like they have been doing. Honestly, the only Season Finale I really liked was Season 3 with the Master. The Master is awesome incarnate, so I was able to forgive RTD for having the fate of the universe at stake at least once a season.

[The Big Dice]

...I think the Daleks should come back, just not every season, and they shouldn't steal the show like they have been doing. Honestly, the only Season Finale I really liked was Season 3 with the Master. The Master is awesome incarnate, so I was able to forgive RTD for having the fate of the universe at stake at least once a season.
Doctor Who without the Daleks is like bacon without eggs. It works, but it needs that little something something.

And you can say what you want about Daleks, but everyone who saw the finale of season 2 was far more exited than any adult should be about seeing Daleks v Cybermen on screen at last. They should repeat the idea from season 3, where there was a Dalek story in the middle of the season, but it was simply a two part story that had no bearing on the way the season ended.

Oh, and bring back the Ice Warriors with a suitable makeover for the 21st century. Or go back in time to show the Silurian civilisation at the height of it's power.

[Drolyt]

Doctor Who without the Daleks is like bacon without eggs. It works, but it needs that little something something.

And you can say what you want about Daleks, but everyone who saw the finale of season 2 was far more exited than any adult should be about seeing Daleks v Cybermen on screen at last. They should repeat the idea from season 3, where there was a Dalek story in the middle of the season, but it was simply a two part story that had no bearing on the way the season ended.

Oh, and bring back the Ice Warriors with a suitable makeover for the 21st century. Or go back in time to show the Silurian civilisation at the height of it's power.

All true. The problem isn't the Daleks, the problem is that RTD insisted on having each finale have more worlds/universes in danger than the last. Not that similar things haven't been done before, but once a season? Come on.

[comicshorse]

Oh, and bring back the Ice Warriors with a suitable makeover for the 21st century. Or go back in time to show the Silurian civilisation at the height of it's power.

I'd really like to see a modern take on the Mandagorra Helix and the Draconians
's

[Drolyt]

I'd really like to see a modern take on the Mandagorra Helix and the Draconians
's

I'd like to see alot of the old enemies, but what would be really cool is to bring back the Black and White Guardians. Still, I'm hoping the new guy will continue the trend of also introducing new aliens and enemies. Nostalgia isn't everything after all (besides, I don't have any; I saw new who first).

[The Big Dice]

I'd like to see alot of the old enemies, but what would be really cool is to bring back the Black and White Guardians. Still, I'm hoping the new guy will continue the trend of also introducing new aliens and enemies. Nostalgia isn't everything after all (besides, I don't have any; I saw new who first).

I'd like to see more of the Shadow Proclamation myself. As for the old stuff, if you can, watch William Hartnell in The Daleks, Patrick Troughton in Tomb of the Cybermen, Jon Pertwee in Inferno, Tom Baker in Pyramids of Mars, Peter Davidson in Earthshock, Colin Baker (and Patrick Troughton) in The Two Doctors and Sylvester McCoy in The Curse of Fenric.

They should give you a pretty solid idea of what the other actors to play the part were like.

[Drolyt]

I'd like to see more of the Shadow Proclamation myself. As for the old stuff, if you can, watch William Hartnell in The Daleks, Patrick Troughton in Tomb of the Cybermen, Jon Pertwee in Inferno, Tom Baker in Pyramids of Mars, Peter Davidson in Earthshock, Colin Baker (and Patrick Troughton) in The Two Doctors and Sylvester McCoy in The Curse of Fenric.

They should give you a pretty solid idea of what the other actors to play the part were like.

Will do. Aside from the current series the only Doctor I've seen is the fourth, who everyone said was the best (I haven't been disappointed). I would also like to see more of the Shadow Proclamation. I wonder if they existed pre Time War, and if so what relation they had with the Time Lords and whether they participated in the war.