A Theory Why The Tippyverse Doesn't Happen

[Lysander]

The tippyverse. A place where Dnd magic is taken to its logical conclusion. Create Food traps for endless free food. Teleportation Circles for public transportation. Skeleton servants tirelessly obeying your every command. Death being a reversible condition you can get Resurrection insurance for.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with this. It's just an example of Niven's law "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

But what about the standard high magic DnD world that doesn't have magical tech everywhere? What stops this magitech from developing?

Here's one theory. Not THE theory. Just a theory.

The material plane is where mortals are born, live, and die. When they die they pass on to various good, evil, lawful, and chaotic aligned planes. What they do during life determines their alignment, and thus where they go.

The residents of each plane want to increase their population, needing more warriors for the endless battle of alignments between the planes. Dead mortals become the lowest form of outsider in whatever plane they pass to, but can grow in power over time. The material plane is basically an outsider factory, producing more beings for all the outer planes.

The Tippyverse utopia is a problem for all outsiders because it eventually takes away all challenge and suffering. There is no need noble sacrifice, no selfish misdeed. Why steal when you can just create or summon whatever you need? Why murder when true resurrection will bring them back to life? There's enough of everything for everyone, so everyone leads a comfortable leisurely existence. Without hardship and choice almost everyone's alignment becomes neutral and they all wind up at the Outlands. The aligned planes, on all sides, are determined to prevent this.

So whenever the tippyverse starts to unfold an unstoppable force of fiends or celestials, or sometimes both, soon arrives to undo it. You hear tales of places like Atlantis that briefly achieved paradise before the outsiders cast it into the sea. A little magic here or there or a lone wizard in his study is beneath their concern, but once magic becomes universal outsiders soon arrive to reset the status quo.

And that's why peasants use mules to plow their fields instead of skeleton elephants.

[Gamerlord]

Or may be cause wizards are so fragile that they tend to die before they are a threat.

[Johel]

*Clap Clap*

I like it, Lysander

[Project_Mayhem]

my interpretation is that characters in game don't have perfect meta knowledge of the rules, and so don't know how to do all the abusive stuff. Fixed.

[Tyndmyr]

It doesn't take perfect meta knowledge. For example, once you realize you can make repeating traps with magical spells attached...or items that do the same, it doesn't take meta knowledge to consider what the most useful items might be, mostly starting with cheap ones.

IE, create food and such.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Atlantis. I like it. Plus, it gives the DM clout against rule-abusers xD.

[Xuincherguixe]

... I think this is less metagaming and more common sense.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, yeah...Gods and such are gonna want to protect their power. If wizard x is gaining power at a phenominal rate, and stealing believers from them or w/e, you will attract unwanted attention.

I kinda like the tippyverse, actually. Its a fun place.

[Saph]

The first reason you don't get these kind of exploits in practice is because in real games, setting trumps RAW. If 1000 pages of setting material give you one type of campaign world, and one poorly worded line in the DMG gives another, and it's blatantly obvious that the DMG line wasn't intended to work that way, then only the dedicated Rules Lawyer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RulesLawyer) types are going to prefer the DMG interpretation. Since in real life Rules Lawyers are about as popular as their legal counterparts, it shouldn't be a surprise that you don't get Tippyverses.

The second, related reason is that most Tippyverse staples require a level of rules abuse that will get you booted from most gaming groups within one session if you try it.

[Choco]

Another in-game reason for this not happening could be because magic power is limited. It is never specified where Arcane magic comes from and how much Divine power a given god can produce to grant to followers.

This would actually make a good plotline. You start out in the Tippyverse, but using that much magic on even the most mundane tasks starts taking it's toll on the world, which slowly begins to crumble.

[Coplantor]

Another in-game reason for this not happening could be because magic power is limited. It is never specified where Arcane magic comes from and how much Divine power a given god can produce to grant to followers.

This would actually make a good plotline. You start out in the Tippyverse, but using that much magic on even the most mundane tasks starts taking it's toll on the world, which slowly begins to crumble.

Have you ever played Dark Sun?:smallamused:

[Hashmir]

Another in-game reason for this not happening could be because magic power is limited. It is never specified where Arcane magic comes from and how much Divine power a given god can produce to grant to followers.

This would actually make a good plotline. You start out in the Tippyverse, but using that much magic on even the most mundane tasks starts taking it's toll on the world, which slowly begins to crumble.

Go play Tales of Symphonia.

[Choco]

Have you ever played Dark Sun?:smallamused:

I shat a pile of bricks when I heard WotC was going to release official Dark Sun books for 4th edition later this year. That is probably one of the major reasons for my conversion from 3.5e.

I think that about answers your question :smallbiggrin:

Both that and Tales of Symphonia take place well after some magic-overuse caused disaster though. I was thinking of a campaign based during the fall/disaster.

[Lysander]

Well, yeah...Gods and such are gonna want to protect their power. If wizard x is gaining power at a phenominal rate, and stealing believers from them or w/e, you will attract unwanted attention.

I kinda like the tippyverse, actually. Its a fun place.

What I like about the theory is that you don't actually need to spell it out for your players in detail. Almost every fantasy novel has a downside to magic. Wizards in stories often only use it in times of great need, and then only as sparingly as possible. They never really spell out why, just that it will upset the natural order of things or unbalance the universe. As it's put in the Earthsea series: "“To light a candle is to cast a shadow.”

Greater information could actually be provided by simple knowledge checks. Maybe something like this would be appropriate

{table="head"]Knowledge Arcana DC|Information
5|Many ancient civilizations had much greater magic than the present does.
10|Ancient high magic civilizations tended to only last a few years before suffering a grim end.
15|Widespread use of magic tends to attract hostile attention from outsiders.
20|Outsiders are committed to keeping the material plane one of struggle and ethical choice. Fiends and celestial have a common purpose in reducing any magical utopias to a more primitive level.
25|Many artifacts and remnants of epic spells were created as last ditch efforts to fight off the invading armies of outsiders. These attempts invariably proved futile.
[/table]

[Grumman]

The aligned planes, on all sides, are determined to prevent this.
No. Good and Evil are not mirror images of each other. Your theory would mean that Good outsiders are not Good, and are in fact Evil, by virtue of their willingness to screw everyone over to maintain their own numbers.

[oxybe]

why doesn't a tippyverse happen?

a wizard undid it. he was a jerk.

[Eldan]

No. Good and Evil are not mirror images of each other. Your theory would mean that Good outsiders are not Good, and are in fact Evil, by virtue of their willingness to screw everyone over to maintain their own numbers.

Welll... Greater good, yadda, yadda, yadda. Solars are so good they would probably be against it (being humble is one of their main shticks, after all), but I can totally see Asura or Eladrin going for this: magic utopia -> no more good outsiders. Since good is already struggling and only still alive thanks to the blood war, they have to prevent this.

Alternative explanation: a lawful evil wizard tries to take over and establish Big Brother Land. Veiled Eladrin prevent this. Chaotic Evil wizard wants to blow everything up. Army of Archons kills him. Neutral Good wizard tries to create free-food-and-healing utopia. There is a strange and inexplicable shift in direction of the blood war and suddenly everyone on the world ends up dead because a battalion of Tanar'ri gets lost, swiftly followed by an army of Baatezu. No Yugoloth were ever involved.

[Lysander]

No. Good and Evil are not mirror images of each other. Your theory would mean that Good outsiders are not Good, and are in fact Evil, by virtue of their willingness to screw everyone over to maintain their own numbers.

They view giving people the chance to become celestials as good, even if that causes some suffering. Angels can be some cold bastards. After all, the flesh of this world is but ash, only the eternal soul truly matters.

Plus, if they didn't meddle in the material plane the fiends still would and would probably tilt things towards evil. It's basically fight for good, and gather noble souls, or allow demons and devils to run rampant over all creation.

[Coplantor]

Anyone played Total Annihilation: Kingdoms here? The game is set on a world that had recovered from a magical apocalypse caused by abuse of magic wich swept away 90% of thw world's population. The game story happens 5000 years after though, but a part of the world itself is beign transformed into what could be called hell on earth due to magic abuse.

[erikun]

The second, related reason is that most Tippyverse staples require a level of rules abuse that will get you booted from most gaming groups within one session if you try it.
This, at least from what I've seen. I know most DMs wouldn't allow players to create food traps or chaingating Solar chains. The reason for it not working may vary, but from most of what I've seen it just won't happen.

Then again, there are other DMs who let you go crazy, under the assumption that everyone before you was too close minded or low level to attempt Trippification. Both ways work.


why doesn't a tippyverse happen?

a wizard undid it. he was a jerk.
Rope Trick + Bag of Holding. They told you it was hazardous!

[WalkingTarget]

There's nothing necessarily wrong with this. It's just an example of Niven's law "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Just a nitpick, but that's Clarke's third law. For [one of] Niven's Law[s] you need it to put it the other way 'round. "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."

[Tyndmyr]

This, at least from what I've seen. I know most DMs wouldn't allow players to create food traps or chaingating Solar chains. The reason for it not working may vary, but from most of what I've seen it just won't happen.

Then again, there are other DMs who let you go crazy, under the assumption that everyone before you was too close minded or low level to attempt Trippification. Both ways work.

I will gladly allow very high degrees of tippification. That said, Im very comfortable with elements of very high magic coexisting with a more traditional world. Teleport circles are great, but you still need caravans to places without them. If high level mages just aren't that common, tippification isn't instant or ridiculously easy.

[Lysander]

Just a nitpick, but that's Clarke's third law. For [one of] Niven's Law[s] you need it to put it the other way 'round. "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."

Damn it. I started with Clarke's law then decided to change it to Niven's, I just put forgot to swap magic and technology.

[LibraryOgre]

No. Good and Evil are not mirror images of each other. Your theory would mean that Good outsiders are not Good, and are in fact Evil, by virtue of their willingness to screw everyone over to maintain their own numbers.

The thing is, it doesn't require good to be willing to screw over the entire world. Just for evil to be willing to.

Evil comes to the utopia... say, three generations on. The people who are important now have never known want or fear. Everything is supplied to them by their mighty wizard-kings, and some few are selected to be part of the mighty wizard-kings. So where does evil fit in?

Some are NOT selected to be wizard-kings. They're not smart enough. They're determined to be of the wrong ethical stripe. They don't have an innate ability to cast magic. But a demon comes and offers them a chance. Sell your soul to me and become as powerful as the wizards. Work for me, and I'll give you what you want. I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say and I will be your slave.

Boom. Warlock. Cleric. Sorcerer. You've got one of them. He charms people. They sabotage food-making devices.... the warlock and cleric dispel them, the rogues disable those nasty traps. Society, never more than three missed meals from revolution, starts to fray, because the food was not... could not be... stored against problems. Replacements can be made, but those take time. Meanwhile, evil seeps in through the crack opened... and widened... by the demon-worshiper. The new wizard-kings, having not needed the spells of combat, have to learn them. Time has to be spent responding to this threat... and in that time, the problem gets worse.

Sure, good can stop this incursion. But in order to do so, you have to assume that good outsiders are proactive. That they go to places where evil is and kick its butt. And, by and large, good outsiders don't come unless called. Chaotic outsiders may look at this utopia and refuse, insofar as they are able, to help a stratified, lawful society continue to exist... and if it's a more free-wheeling utopia, lawful outsiders may do the same. They're not lawful GOOD or CHAOTIC good, they're LAWFUL GOOD and CHAOTIC GOOD... those things are both intrinsic to their nature, and a CG outsider is not going to say "Gee, you've got a wonderfully stratified society that seems to result in good for everyone, I suppose that personal freedom thing isn't that important" any more than they're going to say "My, what a pleasant chaotic hellhole you have. I love how maximum freedom for everyone has turned out, and so will turn a blind eye to the rapine and slavery."

All it takes is one person who is not completely content... and demons with a will to cause chaos and misery.

[The Rose Dragon]

Just fear me, love me, do as I say and I will be your slave.

"You have no power over me!"

[LibraryOgre]

"You have no power over me!"

Wondered how long it would take someone to catch that one. :smallwink:

[Lapak]

I'm still fond of the reasoning I decided on the last time I saw this subject: XP is soul-stuff, and is a finite-but-huge resource without which children cannot be created. This is impossible to notice on an individual scale, no matter how treasure-laden any given adventurer is, but a society that mass-produces permanent spells and magical items is gradually sequestering a critical element without which their population cannot increase - and eventually, they can push it beyond the point where their population can even remain static.

This leads to grand magical societies rising to prominence every few thousand years, only to sink into decay and collapse as their population shrinks and dies off, and eventually their empires become unliveable wastelands until enough of the magic stuff is destroyed and the soul-stuff powering it released. Provides plenty of ancient ruins for treasure-hunting in, to boot. It also explains the typically-slow reproductive rate of elves and dwarves (older demihumans tie up more experience, you can only gradually regrow the population as some folks die off), let alone dragons, and makes liches and the like even more of an abomination.

[Swordgleam]

I'm still fond of the reasoning I decided on the last time I saw this subject: XP is soul-stuff, and is a finite-but-huge resource without which children cannot be created.

I really like that idea. But how about a slightly creepier twist? Children can be created without xp, but they're soulless. Able to master basic skills and go through the motions, but unable to add anything to the world that doesn't already exist - unable to make art, invent things, or even tell jokes.

Plus, then you can have the evil types steal xp-souls from already existing people and transform them into tragic shells of their former selves.

[hamishspence]

Heroes of Horror bleak ones, or Magic of Incarnum Lost, might be possible ways of representing soulless ones.

Technically Lost are being that have attracted too much soul energy of the wrong kind, but the rules seem like they could work.

[Lapak]

I really like that idea. But how about a slightly creepier twist? Children can be created without xp, but they're soulless. Able to master basic skills and go through the motions, but unable to add anything to the world that doesn't already exist - unable to make art, invent things, or even tell jokes.

Plus, then you can have the evil types steal xp-souls from already existing people and transform them into tragic shells of their former selves.Eh, that just leads to the Tippyverse populated by mindless slaves. But you're welcome to adjust the idea for your own purposes however you like. :)

[Arakune]

It doesn't happen because it's expensive:

It needs an 5th level cleric with craft wondrous item, it costs 7500gp (CL 5xLvl3x500), 600 xp (40xCL5xLvl3), takes 15 days to complete.

For some settings, getting a PC class at that level is very difficult, it costs too much for small communities, it only helps a few people (5 min) and it doesn't taste all that good. For most part, making food the classical ways is way cheaper.

Now, after a certain level you sure CAN mass produce those things, but at that point you have better things to do.

[Swordgleam]

Eh, that just leads to the Tippyverse populated by mindless slaves. But you're welcome to adjust the idea for your own purposes however you like. :)

Well, I kind of assume that civilization would crumble within a generation or two of people who can't invent, create, or solve problems. If even the slightest thing goes wrong with the utopia, it all crumbles, because no one has the capacity to fix it.

So your boom-and-bust magic civilization cycle stays intact, just a couple generations delayed and with a little more creepiness.

[Grumman]

Work for me, and I'll give you what you want.
He has what he wants.


Boom. Warlock. Cleric. Sorcerer. You've got one of them. He charms people. They sabotage food-making devices.... the warlock and cleric dispel them, the rogues disable those nasty traps.
So let me get this straight: when they ruin utopia, it's evil, but when the outsiders ruin utopia, it's not evil?


a CG outsider is not going to say "Gee, you've got a wonderfully stratified society that seems to result in good for everyone, I suppose that personal freedom thing isn't that important" any more than they're going to say "My, what a pleasant chaotic hellhole you have. I love how maximum freedom for everyone has turned out, and so will turn a blind eye to the rapine and slavery."
People in an ultra-high fantasy world are more free, not less. Do you know why? Because servitude is no longer necessary to satisfy their wants and needs. If you gave a hunter-gatherer a magic food generator you have not enslaved him to the button, you have freed him from the need to spend most of his waking hours just trying to survive. Society is both more lawful and more chaotic, for the better.

[Gnaeus]

The Tippyverse utopia is a problem for all outsiders because it eventually takes away all challenge and suffering. There is no need noble sacrifice, no selfish misdeed. Why steal when you can just create or summon whatever you need? Why murder when true resurrection will bring them back to life? There's enough of everything for everyone, so everyone leads a comfortable leisurely existence. Without hardship and choice almost everyone's alignment becomes neutral and they all wind up at the Outlands. The aligned planes, on all sides, are determined to prevent this.

That is foolish in the extreme. Having unlimited food and water wouldn't take away all challenge and suffering any more than having unlimited air does. The population would increase until it reached the first limiting factor that can't be endlessly and cheaply created. My guess is that that would be space, because it is hard to actually increase living space without building pocket planes, and no one able to build pocket planes is going to be planning to use them as population control. The population expands until there is no room for all the people, then civilization starts pushing at the edges, leading to wars with surrounding nations. You still get suffering, but with a larger population, more outsiders are created.

If you think that unlimited food and water production eliminates suffering, I am really glad to be living in a society where no suffering exists. Modern technology has the ability to make way more food than there are people, but we manage to make one another unhappy anyway. There is always something that people want that can't be endlessly created. That creates scarcity, which leads to economies and all the good and bad that goes with them.

[Eldan]

And on the freedom issue: I'd have to go on a research paper hunt later, but I've read a study by anthropologists which stated that no one has as much free time per day as hunter-gathererers...

[Randalor]

Soulless children you say? Model them after the Soulless Iosian elves from Iron Kingdoms. They go through the motions *They can move, walk, talk, eat* but they are emotionly dead, they have very little in the way of self-preservation or self-motivation. Occasionally, one will develop a habit or "curiosity" of certain things. The biggest example that comes to mind is Nayl, a soulless magehunter, who dissects captures wizards to see why they can cast spells.

Or alternativly, run them as Tranquil mages from Dragon Age Origins, never caring about themselves, emotionless, will do the last thing they were told, irregardless of situation, ect.

[Deth Muncher]

And that's why peasants use mules to plow their fields instead of skeleton elephants.

We call them skelephants.

[GoC]

Sadly this doesn't work because of one reason: Genesis.
Make your own demiplane and start up the soul factories for your consumption. Soon you're right back to throwing solar systems around.:smallsigh:

[Kallisti]

I kinda like the tippyverse, actually. Its a fun place.

I'm glad you're enjoying your stay.

Lysander, I like it. It makes sense (as long as the outsiders are smart enough to keep mortal wizards from hitting Tippyverse levels of power or optimization) and it has nice flavor.

[GoC]

Speaking of which...
Kallisti: Are you ever going to start that Team Solar vs. Dead-Gone battle?

[Chemus]

Crunch-wise, I can see no inherent reason why the Tippyverse doesn't happen. The game can be played many different ways, most of them not wrong. (If they are wrong, I probably don't want to know about them)

XP is a limiting factor, though NPC's seem to be able to gain experience in fashions different from PC's; training and study, perhaps just living. This means that ...nevermind. I just got it.

Eberron is a version of a Tippyverse.

Gnaeus is correct; food, transportation, information, etc., are not the only resources around.

Also, living things won't coexist harmoniously just because there isn't any real need to compete. Competition is always a factor. You can get a suit of clothes made magically for free? The non-magically made suits just got more desirable. Free food? Crafted food just became a luxury status symbol. Instantaneous transportation to any location you desire? Then Hawaii is always crowded, and none of those dweebs has to go home; no work necessary. You will have environmentalists doomsayers who say that all the magic is harming the population/world/ethereal plane, and who knows, maybe they're right.

You will not have a utopia even if every need is accounted for; bad apples and malcontents will cause problems, one-upsmanship and other forms of competition will always cause strain in society and between nations.

I am not an authority, but Eldan's contention that hunter-gatherers had more free time rings partially true. However that's only where they need not prepare for times of need in times of plenty. Farming is safer, more certain.

I think that utopia wouldn't happen, no matter what changes to available resources were made.

See the book/series "There Will Be Dragons." (I forget the author(s), but I think it's John Ringo) It has a good showing of a possible outcome of Clarke's Law.

[Doc Roc]

The Elemental Weirds prevent the Tippyverse. It's really that simple.


She sees you where you're sleeping
She knows when you're awake
She knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for



[I]Fragment of a Children's Rhyme in the Irda Ruins, Dated to 1500 PCE

[Deepblue706]

No, this is all wrong.

The reason why the Tippyverse doesn't happen is because there is an ever-present board of Campaign Setting Directors - all of which being epic-level wizards - that smite all attempts at making it happen because then there'd be too many sci-fi elements, and it wouldn't be goddamn D&D.

This invisible order protects the genre boundaries and ensures it all works properly. Because when it doesn't, the universe has an increasing chance of exploding with each moment.

The only arena in which these Wizards have no say is over the godless lands of GURPS, which is a chaotic realm wherein one might play with all genres interchangeably...

...but we must not speak upon such matters any further. The dark ones may be listening.

[AshDesert]

No, this is all wrong.

The reason why the Tippyverse doesn't happen is because there is an ever-present board of Campaign Setting Directors - all of which being epic-level wizards - that smite all attempts at making it happen because then there'd be too many sci-fi elements, and it wouldn't be goddamn D&D.

This invisible order protects the genre boundaries and ensures it all works properly. Because when it doesn't, the universe has an increasing chance of exploding with each moment.

The only arena in which these Wizards have no say is over the godless lands of GURPS, which is a chaotic realm wherein one might play with all genres interchangeably...

...but we must not speak upon such matters any further. The dark ones may be listening.

I would like to introduce you to Spelljammer (http://tgr316.blazeirc.net/RPGMotivational/spelljammer.jpg).

[oxybe]

too much sci-fi? isn't traditional fantasy just Scifi with "technobabble" replaced with "Arcanobabble" and everyone dresses in poofy pants & tights while smelling like pigs & cows?

[ZeroNumerous]

People in an ultra-high fantasy world are more free, not less. Do you know why? Because servitude is no longer necessary to satisfy their wants and needs. If you gave a hunter-gatherer a magic food generator you have not enslaved him to the button, you have freed him from the need to spend most of his waking hours just trying to survive. Society is both more lawful and more chaotic, for the better.

Uh, no. The lack of pressure to fulfill the basic needs means that people start to get bored. As they have more time on their hands, they need proportionally more things to fill their time to stave off the angonizing, mind-numbing and soul-crushing boredom. What happens when you've played every game imaginable? You start inventing new ones. And it's a whole lot easier to go to "gladitorial blood sports" than to "magical soccer in a ball of gravity-defying water".


That is foolish in the extreme. Having unlimited food and water wouldn't take away all challenge and suffering any more than having unlimited air does.

You're right. It doesn't take away any challenges other than needing food/water. But the thing is: The Tippyverse removes all(double emphasis) challenges. Death? True Res, then Rebirths when you turn Old. Space? Infinite due to Genesis and/or Greater Teleport+Adaptation. Why worry about space on the Earth when you can colonize the moon? Food? Infinitely reusable Create Food/Water traps. Clothes, furniture or houses? Infinitely reusable Fabricate traps. Labor? 24/7 skeletal manservants that fold for easy travel.

Magic has removed any and all need to fulfill basic needs. There are no nations to war against because wars no longer need to be fought. Because anyone who has the idea of starting up his own nation is visited by the Mindrape Fairy who fixes that problem right quick. The entire Prime Material Plane is run by immensely powerful epic++ wizards and their armies of shadesteel golems funded/built by pain factories staffed with created non-sentient life. The Tippyverse does not stop at mere unlimited food and unlimited water. It starts there and escalates. It is contentedness incarnate, and it is disgusting.

[Doc Roc]

FnordCitizen, you will please accept that soon you will understand that it is not disgusting? Fnord

To be perfectly blunt, I think it would be a good idea to note that what we call the tippyverse wasn't first articulated by tippy, but could probably be more aptly blamed on PhaedrusXY, LoP, T_G, and the WotCOhort. God rest gleemax.

[jmbrown]

The way I look at utopian societies is that people become too complacent. Granted, I don't know much about the Tippyverse, but in a world of supreme magic is there a need for the average commoner? If a skeleton can tireless haul rocks, why do you need someone mundane?

Sad fact is, not everyone can be a wizard. When you think about the IQ requirements, only a small fraction of a medieval-world population can read let alone speak properly. You have this tiny amount of casters in relation to the inferior folk and what do you do with them?

Kill them? Place government enforced segregation Brave New World style? Eventually there'll be a wizard who takes pity on these poor souls and decides that utopia shouldn't come before everyone else. He starts crafting a few magic immune golems or gates in an army of demons/celestials and goes to town. Some people can't be satisfied with paradise when the damned are knocking on your gates asking for solace.

[Doc Roc]

Infinite magic.

Infinite stat-boosters.

Infinite psychic reformations.

Infinite retraining tricks involving barghests and such.



There are no commoners.
There is no stupid.
This is transhumanism in a thin disguise.

[jmbrown]

Infinite magic.

Infinite stat-boosters.

Infinite psychic reformations.

Infinite retraining tricks involving barghests and such.



There are no commoners.
There is no stupid.
This is transhumanism in a thin disguise.

I'm not an encyclopedia of 3E magic but I do know you can't have an inherent bonus to an ability score higher than +5. I'm sure someone out there has found a disgusting trick around it, but you still have a clear division in power. It'll be the difference between an 18 intelligence wizard and a 28 intelligence wizard. One of those two has a higher output and he'll be unsatisfied when the 18 intelligent wizard gets the same or better treatment than him.

In a world of experts you still have people who are exceptional-but-not-as-much-as-the-next-guy. Skeletons may be cleaning the toilets but the dumbest of the smart is creating the skeletons.

[Coplantor]

Infinite magic.

Infinite stat-boosters.

Infinite psychic reformations.

Infinite retraining tricks involving barghests and such.



There are no commoners.
There is no stupid.
This is transhumanism in a thin disguise.

Hahahaah, I just love this, If I have space in my sig, can I sigquote you?

[Doc Roc]

I'm not an encyclopedia of 3E magic but I do know you can't have an inherent bonus to an ability score higher than +5. I'm sure someone out there has found a disgusting trick around it, but you still have a clear division in power. It'll be the difference between an 18 intelligence wizard and a 28 intelligence wizard. One of those two has a higher output and he'll be unsatisfied when the 18 intelligent wizard gets the same or better treatment than him.

In a world of experts you still have people who are exceptional-but-not-as-much-as-the-next-guy. Skeletons may be cleaning the toilets but the dumbest of the smart is creating the skeletons.


Hahahaha, no, I can push anyone's stat to any number. And glue it there.
Besides, when you're using L'Hospital's Rule to describe power differentials, you may be missing the point.


You can quote me, Co.

[ZeroNumerous]

One of those two has a higher output and he'll be unsatisfied when the 18 intelligent wizard gets the same or better treatment than him.

Well guess what: It doesn't matter. The mindrape fairy comes along and fixes his problem. It is disgustingly complacent and everyone is happy because everyone is required to be happy. I certainly hate it as much as you do, but it's simply impossible for it to fall apart unless the epic level immortal wizards running the joint decide to fu--

"Everything is fine. Tippyverse is great. Thank you for reading this post about how great Tippyverse is. -Signed MF."

[jmbrown]

Hahahaha, no, I can push anyone's stat to any number. And glue it there.
Besides, when you're using L'Hospital's Rule to describe power differentials, you may be missing the point.


You can quote me, Co.

How am I missing the point? In the D&D game, the difference in power is determined by level and ability score. A person with 1,000,002 intelligence still produces more output than a person with 1,000,000. A level 1 wizard must still gain the experience to be able to cast the spells that allow society to function.

The biggest fallacy of Tippyverse is the idea that human beings are content with what they have. Eventually someone with the power to make a change will. It's human nature.

[Doc Roc]

Who said anything about you getting to stay human?

I'll drag you kicking and screaming into my beautiful future.
And the best part is that when we get there, you'll think it's beautiful too.

[ZeroNumerous]

The biggest fallacy of Tippyverse is the idea that human beings are content with what they have. Eventually someone with the power to make a change will. It's human nature.

Mindrape. It is a spell. You can make a use-activated item of it. You can then have 9001 little fairies flying around every minute of every hour of every day wiping minds and making them content. To put it simply:

Human nature? Crushed under complacency. Humanity? Meaningless as you get a random chance to become anything else at your Old age category. Individuality? Ya, sure, as long as you're loyal to the Archmage.

Your biggest fallacy is that you assume people still have choices.

[quiet1mi]

Always wanted to play in a Tippyverse... an inverse shadowrun where magic is advanced and technology is being researched to gain an edge over competing factions...

[Doc Roc]

Mindrape. It is a spell. You can make a use-activated item of it. You can then have 9001 little fairies flying around every minute of every hour of every day wiping minds and making them content. To put it simply:

Human nature? Crushed under complacency. Humanity? Meaningless as you get a random chance to become anything else at your Old age category. Individuality? Ya, sure, as long as you're loyal to the Archmage.

Your biggest fallacy is that you assume people still have choices.

I think that one could imagine a tippyverse....

Let's call it a Jakeverse....

Where you have a mechanism for infinite divination. Choices are only taken away if it is clear that their long term effects would be in some fashion profoundly negative for another person. It's not the annihilation of choice. It's the constrain of gnostic will.

[taltamir]

OP, very nice theory, it is also sorta canon considering the various "world encompassing wizard nations with unlimited powers" that the worlds have in their past, usually ended when the gods personally intervened (or were forced to intervene...

Example, the nethril, with their mythallar and floating utopia cities... Xerxus went and tried to usurp the god of magic who comitted suicide instead. reborn minutes later, those few seconds without magic (arcane magic comes from the god of magic) were enough for the cities to crash and burn and their civilization to expire...
and to top it all off, the new god of magic nerfed magic, rewrote its laws to make many things no longer possible / different...

4e is supposedly chronically related to 3.5e with the gods literally reshaping reality to form the new cosmology and magic mechanics.

[jmbrown]

Who said anything about you getting to stay human?

I'll drag you kicking and screaming into my beautiful future.
And the best part is that when we get there, you'll think it's beautiful too.

And who are you but someone with the power to enact this authority? If you have this power, doesn't someone else? If they don't, then that makes you the authority. If they do, then what's stopping them from overriding your authority?


Mindrape. It is a spell. You can make a use-activated item of it. You can then have 9001 little fairies flying around every minute of every hour of every day wiping minds and making them content. To put it simply:

Human nature? Crushed under complacency. Humanity? Meaningless as you get a random chance to become anything else at your Old age category. Individuality? Ya, sure, as long as you're loyal to the Archmage.

Your biggest fallacy is that you assume people still have choices.

Being the authority figure. One man who rules over all others without peer. If everyone is loyal to him, he has nothing to fear. But he's not omnipotent. He can't stop everything from happening. Eventually he makes a mistake, slips up, or his power blows up in his face.

And if it doesn't; if this archmage is truly perfect, makes no mistakes, and knows and sees everything, he's a god. Pure and simple, if this omnipotent and omnipresent archmage exists he's a god and Tippyverse is his dollhouse.

[Doc Roc]

And who are you but someone with the power to enact this authority? If you have this power, doesn't someone else? If they don't, then that makes you the authority. If they do, then what's stopping them from overriding your authority?



Really now?
Magic! :)
It's possible in 3.x to create a sort of godmachine, a NDIA, or non-deterministic infinite-state automata, a sort of supra-turing complete computer. And from this, we can actually divine perfectly optimal solutions if we can acquire the data. Please trust me when I say we can acquire the data.

The Jakeverse is run by an immense, possibly infinite, array of these god-machines. They always agree, and they always act to preserve the general AND specific optimum. In cases of conflict, they will use magic to literally split the time-lines, ripping apart the very fabric of the universe to make a better one.

The mechanical underpinnings for these things?
Relatively trivial.

[jmbrown]

Really now?
Magic! :)

Damn. The unbeatable rebuttal. Yeah, I concede.

[Bibliomancer]

Technically Lost are being that have attracted too much soul energy of the wrong kind, but the rules seem like they could work.

That could explain their attraction to incarnum. They are attempting to replace what they lost, but their fallen state is anathema to the very energy that they are trying to utilize. The reason why they generally appear in areas where incarnum use is heavy is because its use disrupts the normal flow of soul energy, creating pockets of high power (soulmelds) at the expense of barren patches (which spawn Lost).

An interesting idea, although you could always create a demiplane from which to steal soul-energy, or siphon it subtly off the Blood War (a society of high level wizards could fight off a very high number of evil outsiders, with the right preparations).

Also, a society can be designed with a set alignment (a LE example is given in Fiendish Codex II) and so a group of wizards could protect their fledgling Tippyverse by agreeing become vassals to a certain outer power, probably the archons.

Additionally, there are an infinite number of Material Worlds on the Prime Material Plane (or so it is implied, given the infinite number of outsiders), and some of them are probably secluded, boring Tippyverses of which we know nothing, since there are no adventurers in them.

[Doc Roc]

I have expanded my rebuttal, if you would like to endeavor a refutation. I am actually enjoying this conversation, though I will admit that perhaps we should split it off into its own thread at this point.

[ZeroNumerous]

Being the authority figure. One man who rules over all others without peer. If everyone is loyal to him, he has nothing to fear. But he's not omnipotent. He can't stop everything from happening. Eventually he makes a mistake, slips up, or his power blows up in his face.

See: You're still making the grossly inaccurate assumption that people have choice. Mindrape forces loyalty. You do not have a choice. You simply are loyal, because mindrape replaced all those horrible thoughts of individuality with nice thoughts of the Archmage. And even if he didn't have Epic spellcasting, and thus wasn't an omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient big-brother figure: He'd still be in charge. Why? Because everyone likes him, because they're programmed to like him.


And if it doesn't; if this archmage is truly perfect, makes no mistakes, and knows and sees everything, he's a god. Pure and simple, if this omnipotent and omnipresent archmage exists he's a god and Tippyverse is his dollhouse.

Ya, he effectively is a god and the Tippyverse is effectively his dollhouse. Or did you forget I was telling you precisely that in much fewer words?

[jmbrown]

I have expanded my rebuttal, if you would like to endeavor a refutation. I am actually enjoying this conversation, though I will admit that perhaps we should split it off into its own thread at this point.

Eh, not really. When you reference things like L'Hospitale's Rule my brain starts to throb. I don't want to kill any more catgirls than this topic has done already.


See: You're still making the grossly inaccurate assumption that people have choice. Mindrape forces loyalty. You do not have a choice. You simply are loyal, because mindrape replaced all those horrible thoughts of individuality with nice thoughts of the Archmage. And even if he didn't have Epic spellcasting, and thus wasn't an omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient big-brother figure: He'd still be in charge. Why? Because everyone likes him, because they're programmed to like him.


Then it's not a society so much as it is an automated machine. Emperor Tippy or whatever should just ascend because clearly he's mastered the mortal world.

[Kelb_Panthera]

TBH I'm only passingly familiar with the tippyverse, but the version DocRoc is describing sounds decidedly lawful. It won't take long for the forces of Chaos, both good and evil to rally against it. Mind you I said rally, not organize.

[Coidzor]

Ya, he effectively is a god and the Tippyverse is effectively his dollhouse. Or did you forget I was telling you precisely that in much fewer words?

Also, literally a god if he programs his mindrapes right and uses that worshipers to divine rank conversion formula thing.

In regards to the OP: Good idea, but now we need to homebrew up an Anti-Tippy Wizard Inevitable.

[taltamir]

Also, literally a god if he programs his mindrapes right and uses that worshipers to divine rank conversion formula thing.

In regards to the OP: Good idea, but now we need to homebrew up an Anti-Tippy Wizard Inevitable.

where is the formula?

[Boci]

where is the formula?

System Reference Document lists how many folloers each divine rank implies under the divine section.

[Doc Roc]

TBH I'm only passingly familiar with the tippyverse, but the version DocRoc is describing sounds decidedly lawful. It won't take long for the forces of Chaos, both good and evil to rally against it. Mind you I said rally, not organize.

I hope they're MA-Immune, for their sake.

[Coidzor]

where is the formula?

Think it's Deities and Demigods from 3E where I first saw it, so either whatever updated it in 3.5 or that book. Could be recalling erroneously, but I have seen some words bandied about on the boards as well about followers correlating to divine rank so I figure I'm not completely offbase here. Don't have the book on hand right now though, so I couldn't say. Hopefully someone else around is more familiar with the subject.

[Boci]

Here's the SRD version:

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/DivineRanksandPowers.rtf


Rank 6–10: Called lesser deities, these entities grant spells and can perform more powerful deeds than demigods can. Lesser deities have anywhere from a few thousand to tens of thousands of worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods. They also have keener senses where their portfolios are concerned.

Rank 11–15: These entities are called intermediate deities. They have hundreds of thousands of mortal worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods or lesser deities.

Rank 16–20: Called greater deities, these entities may have millions of mortal worshipers, and they command respect even among other deities. The most powerful of greater deities rule over other deities just as mortal sovereigns rule over commoners.

So nothing concrete but a start. Hopefully dieties and demigods has some more detailed rules.

[Reinboom]

OP, very nice theory, it is also sorta canon considering the various "world encompassing wizard nations with unlimited powers" that the worlds have in their past, usually ended when the gods personally intervened (or were forced to intervene...

Example, the nethril, with their mythallar and floating utopia cities... Xerxus went and tried to usurp the god of magic who comitted suicide instead. reborn minutes later, those few seconds without magic (arcane magic comes from the god of magic) were enough for the cities to crash and burn and their civilization to expire...
and to top it all off, the new god of magic nerfed magic, rewrote its laws to make many things no longer possible / different...

4e is supposedly chronically related to 3.5e with the gods literally reshaping reality to form the new cosmology and magic mechanics.

...you... you just butchered the story of the fall of Netheril. :smallfrown:
Karsus tried to take Mystryl's power in order to stop a powerful magic war that was tearing the weave. The reason Mystryl sacrificed herself is to prevent the weave from being completely destroyed in the moment before she completely lost her godhood, since she was the only being repairing it. Karsus, in the backlash of this, was petrified. It is never said that Mystryl sacrificed herself specifically to stop Karsus or this incredible point of magic, only to protect the weave.
Even after a couple moments past and Mystryl's reincarnation went in full, Mystra, her new form, still tried to save as much of the Netheril empires as she could (and was able to still guide 3 cities safely to the ground).
The rules are there more to protect the weave more so than to make sure that level of magic doesn't occur again. They go hand in hand, sort of, but the intent is different.

[Foryn Gilnith]

In regards to the OP: Good idea, but now we need to homebrew up an Anti-Tippy Wizard Inevitable.

Wouldn't that just be Lawful Neutral Pun-Pun?

[Doc Roc]

No, seriously, go read elemental weirds.

They date to the birth of creation.
They have infinite divinations at free action speed.
They have ninth level spells.
They have the elemental type, with all that it implies.
They have regeneration with no mechanism for overcoming it.

[dragonfan6490]

I would think that Inevitables would be the reason the Tippyverse doesn't come about...

[taltamir]

I would think that Inevitables would be the reason the Tippyverse doesn't come about...

inevitables are delicious little bundles of XP that come to you :)... as a bonus, they are expected, you can defend and make plans and fight them on your terms.


...you... you just butchered the story of the fall of Netheril. :smallfrown:

um... sorry :)

[Demented]

Eventually, you manage to piss off a Divine Rank 21 Diety. That doesn't have stats.


After which, you, and everything you have labored to create, is reduced to a thin film of flux slime.

[taltamir]

Eventually, you manage to piss off a Divine Rank 21 Diety. That doesn't have stats.


After which, you, and everything you have labored to create, is reduced to a thin film of flux slime.

thats why you make an ice assassin of a divinity 21 being first, and have it raise you to divinity 21+, then you make ice assassins of yourself for an army of divity 21+ gods... who can literally strip lesser gods of their power.

[Demented]

A nice idea in theory, but when it comes to an overdiety, the Ice Assassin spell functions as follows:

Ice Assassin
Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M, XP
Casting Time: 8 hours
Range: Touch
Area: One duplicate creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

When you begin casting this spell to create an ice assassin of an overdiety, you instantly die.

XP Cost: (Irrelevant, but for the sake of bookkeeping) 5,000.

[Grumman]

Uh, no. The lack of pressure to fulfill the basic needs means that people start to get bored. As they have more time on their hands, they need proportionally more things to fill their time to stave off the angonizing, mind-numbing and soul-crushing boredom. What happens when you've played every game imaginable? You start inventing new ones. And it's a whole lot easier to go to "gladitorial blood sports" than to "magical soccer in a ball of gravity-defying water".
So people in your world have never heard of the arts? Or studying the universe? Or trying to make advancements in the field of magic?


Kill them? Place government enforced segregation Brave New World style? Eventually there'll be a wizard who takes pity on these poor souls and decides that utopia shouldn't come before everyone else. He starts crafting a few magic immune golems or gates in an army of demons/celestials and goes to town. Some people can't be satisfied with paradise when the damned are knocking on your gates asking for solace.
There are no damned! There's enough to go around for everybody, without even needing the resources that less advanced societies once relied on.


TBH I'm only passingly familiar with the tippyverse, but the version DocRoc is describing sounds decidedly lawful. It won't take long for the forces of Chaos, both good and evil to rally against it. Mind you I said rally, not organize.
Again, you cannot both be good and be against a Tippyverse-style utopia. If the forces of Chaotic Good care more about staving off their own obselesence than actually achieving good, they are not Good.

I'm beginning to wonder if some people learned everything they know of the effects of technology on society from Matrix: Reloaded.

[Deepblue706]

I would like to introduce you to Spelljammer (http://tgr316.blazeirc.net/RPGMotivational/spelljammer.jpg).

Everyone knows Spelljammer is just an urban legend.

[Doc Roc]

So, I'm going to be blunt. All the arguments against the Tippyverse hinge on three things:

Interventionist Deities

In the ideal situation, the Jakeverse represents a paragon society for the Good and Lawful deities. You'd have just as many for you as against you. This is basically also an apple-cart that you can avoid upsetting. Why bother arsing with deities when you can build your utopia inside a huge array of closed demiplanes linked only to each other?
A Set of Gentlemen's Agreements

This is actually pretty reasonable, since the trap rules are Not For Players, and in fact BoVD material really wasn't either originally. In fact, a lot of Tippyisms are considered rather frangible by the CO\TO community. This also covers home-brew or the Pun-Pun Contingency, and so comprises the most broad and also most applicable set of counter-arguments. Mostly, however, as an exercise regarding the Full Articulation of the rules in motion as laws of a simulated universe, Tippyism is a useful thought experiment that shouldn't be scorned because you dislike it.
An Insistence that Humans are Basically Terrible.

We have nothing to discuss on this issue, and likely if you feel this way we have very little to discuss overall.


None of these are exactly RAW, nor are they reconcilable between internerdstrangernet strangers.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So people in your world have never heard of the arts? Or studying the universe? Or trying to make advancements in the field of magic?


There are no damned! There's enough to go around for everybody, without even needing the resources that less advanced societies once relied on.


Again, you cannot both be good and be against a Tippyverse-style utopia. If the forces of Chaotic Good care more about staving off their own obselesence than actually achieving good, they are not Good.

I'm beginning to wonder if some people learned everything they know of the effects of technology on society from Matrix: Reloaded.

You can't be good and be against a society where noone has any freedom of choice? In the tippyverse that works, people simply can't be people, they have to be nearly mindless animals to simply be content with their lot in life. They also have to be completely free from the influence of outsiders of any kind that might push them to do anything that is even remotely bad for society at large. Since people aren't mindless and outsiders *will* have their influence somebody somewhere is going to do something that the people in-charge aren't going to like. At that point the force that's represents the people in charge are going to have to "correct his mistake" or ignore it completely. If they ignore it then more people will act out and in no-time flat the tippyverse is plunged into multiple interpersonal wars where people try to take power over one-another by sheer force or manipulation. At some point this problem *will* have to be addressed or chaos will reign, hardly what I call a utopia. If on the other hand the lone man who does wrong is immediately squashed before his behavior can spread, that's tyranny and the chaotic memebers of the celestial host will come down hard on the people responsible for the tyranny, because it will happen again, and again, and again. If you're arguing that tippyverse levels of magic will result in trans-humanism, then there's the problem of the gods themselves taking exception to mortals screwing up what the gods created. Even the gods of good would rally against any mortal or group of mortals so arrogant as to believe that they can do a better job of creation that the gods themselves, even if they are right. Nevermind the period of transition where-in the tippyverse makers have to force other humans to bend to their will whether they like it or not. Remember that in D&D the gods *aren't* omniscient. They can make mistakes, like squashing the tippyverse before it can get started because of their own arrogance.

[Setra]

Big Brother is watching this thread

[Skaven]

[edit:removed post]

[ZeroNumerous]

So people in your world have never heard of the arts? Or studying the universe? Or trying to make advancements in the field of magic?

Arts? Made by magic. Studying the universe? You already know everything there is to know about it via magic. Advancements in the field of magic? You only get up to 9th level, unless the epic wizard running the show wants you to also be epic, but that's unlikely to happen as then you become a threat to the stability of the Tippyverse.

[Zeful]

There are no damned! There's enough to go around for everybody, without even needing the resources that less advanced societies once relied on.And the mindraped populace of billions don't count as the damned?


Again, you cannot both be good and be against a Tippyverse-style utopia. If the forces of Chaotic Good care more about staving off their own obselesence than actually achieving good, they are not Good.Yes they can. A truly CHAOTIC GOOD being is not going to accept the destruction of freedom for any advancement of good, as the CG philosophy pretty much is "Given freedom man will choose good". By taking away one's freedom, they can no longer choose to be good, making any good deeds on their part meaningless. Yes it's naive, but it's no more naive than thinking a CG being would accept the "utopia" described in this thread is actually Good.


I'm beginning to wonder if some people learned everything they know of the effects of technology on society from Matrix: Reloaded.
The tippyverse pretty much boils down to: "If you want something, anything, here it is. You don't have to work for it." That is not good for society. Without government endorsed Mindrape, people will eventually rebel, if only for something to do that allows them to achieve something.

[jseah]

Let's push the Tippyness of Tippyverse even further.

All of you, anything you want, we have it, and very soon, so do you.

This includes the ability to choose however you want to act. IE. no mindrape

All of you get your personal demiplane, with any toys, magic, whatever the heck you want/wish for.
CE overlord wants to oppress people? Well, there's all forms of pseudo-sentient beings to meet your baser needs.
Feel like stomping some puppies, well, here ya go!

It's a very subtle form of mindrape. Without actually using the spell, you give any and all of them the ability to interact with an entire simulated universe that just happens to be identical to the current one.
IE. This is the Matrix. The matrix isn't a bluff world (unless you want it to be) and is an exact and complete simulation of the entire world. '
EDIT: you can't tell the difference since the information content is the same. Technically speaking, you have "solved" the universe.

Divination-based machines have higher than infinite computational power. They can simulate ALL of the phase space that is the universe and everything in it.

You cannot complain that the people you're oppressing aren't "real" people. They are completely real in the simulation.

At the same time, they're also just a few petabytes in a computation. They have no soul and yet act exactly as if they do. Repeat after me, divination-based machines can simulate any reality, including making soulless simulation act as if they had souls. You can even mimic every single effect having a soul has.


For anyone familiar with anime, the ultimate end of tippyverse is where everyone is in their own private universe where they have the same position as Haruhi Suzumiya.

[Lysander]

Right. That would be the problem. Not that there would be a stratified society of archmages mind controlling the populace. The problem is that EVERYONE would be an archmage. Or have powers equivalent to one thanks to magic items.

Have you seen Wall-E? People basically become like the humans in that, except they get to have their own demiplanes and teleport around.

[dsmiles]

@OP:

My theory on this is because the DM can always say, "No."

[Zincorium]

@OP:

My theory on this is because the DM can always say, "No."

I think I speak for a lot of people when I say...

WHOOSH.

[Sebastian]

Another in-game reason for this not happening could be because magic power is limited. It is never specified where Arcane magic comes from and how much Divine power a given god can produce to grant to followers.

This would actually make a good plotline. You start out in the Tippyverse, but using that much magic on even the most mundane tasks starts taking it's toll on the world, which slowly begins to crumble.

Or even better, you just start using too much magic, at a cetin point it just stop working, now your teleport network is useless, your summoned workers disappear, your flying cities fall down and so on, that is what happened to Atlantis and all these magic rich kingdoms in the past, they were based around magic and when magic stopped working they collapsed or were destroyed by their enemies once their defenses didn't works anymore, or both.

but the reason the Tippyverse don't work is that it is based on some assumptions which are not necessarily true, just to say one, magic item/trap creations chapters are not rules, they are guidelines, this means that, no, you can't create a trap based on create food, exactly like you can't create a sword with an at will True Strike on it, even if the rules say you can. Also Tippy kinda assume that, for example you have as many wizards as you want/need and that they can burn XPs at their discretion, but that is not always true. Yes, theorically you could use teleportation circle to build a nation-wide network of teleporters, for example, but if you have just one 20 level wizard it would not be so easy, and even if it was, maybe he would have better uses for his time and XPs.

[Tyndmyr]

Even if you assume that the only level 20+ wizards to exist are those used in examples(Ie, at least one of each PrC), then that's still a rather large pile of high level wizards. Now, they may not have all existed at once, but even a single wizard can do a good bit of tippification if he so desires.

[Saph]

No he doesn't, because Pun-Pun stops him.

Once you include Pun-Pun or a similar figure, the D&Dverse immediately starts making much more sense.

[Zeful]

@OP:

My theory on this is because the DM can always say, "No."
A more accurate response would be is that it's not fun to play in a Tippy-verse utopia, where there is no challenge for anything.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Or even better, you just start using too much magic, at a cetin point it just stop working, now your teleport network is useless, your summoned workers disappear, your flying cities fall down and so on, that is what happened to Atlantis and all these magic rich kingdoms in the past, they were based around magic and when magic stopped working they collapsed or were destroyed by their enemies once their defenses didn't works anymore, or both.

Plato's Atlantis fell after the Atlantians became wicked and impious.

The real Atlantis fell because the Ancients lost a war against the vast hordes of the Wraith, forcing them to hide the city for many millenia.

[Tyndmyr]

A more accurate response would be is that it's not fun to play in a Tippy-verse utopia, where there is no challenge for anything.

Why would there be no challenges? No challenges mean no xp, and if there's one thing that superpowerful wizards that rely on crafting stuff to maintain their society will need, it's xp.

[Xenogears]

Why would there be no challenges? No challenges mean no xp, and if there's one thing that superpowerful wizards that rely on crafting stuff to maintain their society will need, it's xp.

I thought Pain factories solved that?

[Tyndmyr]

Well, partially. That does require that Tippy be evil, though, which isn't a guarantee.

Besides, monsters are useful for all sorts of things besides straight xp. Thus, even if Tippy can eradicate them all, it probably isn't desirable to do so. Just to have safe areas and wild areas.

[Lysander]

Why would there be no challenges? No challenges mean no xp, and if there's one thing that superpowerful wizards that rely on crafting stuff to maintain their society will need, it's xp.

Well, then that's the ultimate destination of the tippyverse. Plenty of magic items are created to automate everything, then everyone born faces no challenge and becomes a neutral level 1 aristocrat.

[Xenogears]

Well, partially. That does require that Tippy be evil, though, which isn't a guarantee.

Besides, monsters are useful for all sorts of things besides straight xp. Thus, even if Tippy can eradicate them all, it probably isn't desirable to do so. Just to have safe areas and wild areas.

Well since the Tippyverse also usually involves Mindrape it would seem he is usually evil.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Mindrape: It's Awwwight.

[Zeful]

Why would there be no challenges? No challenges mean no xp, and if there's one thing that superpowerful wizards that rely on crafting stuff to maintain their society will need, it's xp.

Because as a setting, you, the player, are not one of the many wizards crafting magic traps/items to maintain the empire and actually require xp. You are one of the many mindraped sheep that get everything you've ever wanted just by thinking about it. There's no challenges in that.

[Eldan]

Wasn't it that you got your XP from summoned monsters and golems? While wielding items which can one-shot these creatures, and automatic teleport/resurrection items in case something went wrong?

[Xenogears]

Wasn't it that you got your XP from summoned monsters and golems? While wielding items which can one-shot these creatures, and automatic teleport/resurrection items in case something went wrong?

Well anything summoned counts into it's summoners CR so that wouldn't work. And if you can one-shot them then they aren't a challenge so no XP there either.

[Tyndmyr]

Because as a setting, you, the player, are not one of the many wizards crafting magic traps/items to maintain the empire and actually require xp. You are one of the many mindraped sheep that get everything you've ever wanted just by thinking about it. There's no challenges in that.

First off...theres a good version of mindrape, so it's possible for a paranoid wizard to end up in charge that isn't actually evil.

It's also horribly inefficient for a wizard to mindrape everyone. That requires a fairly decent level 17+ wizard to general population ratio. That seems...unlikely. Yeah, he *could* do that for all those close to him, but the entire population? No.

So it's entirely possible that as an adventurer, you are not at all mindraped. Sure...the setting is inherently challenging, in that mindrape is a huge threat if you are an overt threat to his power, but this isn't really unusual in any evil setting.

[Xenogears]

First off...theres a good version of mindrape, so it's possible for a paranoid wizard to end up in charge that isn't actually evil.

It's also horribly inefficient for a wizard to mindrape everyone. That requires a fairly decent level 17+ wizard to general population ratio. That seems...unlikely. Yeah, he *could* do that for all those close to him, but the entire population? No.

So it's entirely possible that as an adventurer, you are not at all mindraped. Sure...the setting is inherently challenging, in that mindrape is a huge threat if you are an overt threat to his power, but this isn't really unusual in any evil setting.

By "good version of mindrape" do you mean sanctify the wicked? Because that doesn't allow reprograming. If its something else you meant then just ignore that line.

As for inefficiency. Have golems with per day/at will uses of mindrape? I mean if your evil you have pain factories for infinite xp. Or you could use the sacrifice rules to get infinite dark craft gp and xp (although youd need to worship some evil god then).

[Tyndmyr]

Can't remember the name of it...there was a good way to get an effect that was basically like mindrape. Not exactly, of course, but good enough for the purpose of making you safe.

Now yes, you can make use of mindrape chains...but the friend of your friend is not always your friend. In practice, this ends up being a lot more variable than would be seemed. What, are you going to have mindraping in the delivery room? How are they going to know to love you if they dont know who you are?

[Johel]

Because as a setting, you, the player, are not one of the many wizards crafting magic traps/items to maintain the empire and actually require xp. You are one of the many mindraped sheep that get everything you've ever wanted just by thinking about it. There's no challenges in that.

Actually, there is... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126825)
...and that's for both sides of the Tippyverse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126822)


Well anything summoned counts into it's summoners CR so that wouldn't work. And if you can one-shot them then they aren't a challenge so no XP there either.

Called creatures still earn you XP, though.
It costs you 1000 XP to call anything through "Gate".
The Balor gives 6000 XP once slain.
The Marilith gives 2000 XP once slain.

[2xMachina]

Programmed amenesia

The non-evil mind rape. Slower though (10 mins)

That said, Tippyverse sounds fun.

[Mike_G]

Programmed amenesia

The non-evil mind rape. Slower though (10 mins)

That said, Tippyverse sounds fun.


It sounds fun like syphilis. Enjoyable while you're working on it, but then a pain in the nethers that never gets any better.

[Johel]

It sounds fun like syphilis. Enjoyable while you're working on it, but then a pain in the nethers that never gets any better.

That's both spiritual and poetic.
Me like it. :smallamused:

[2xMachina]

It sounds fun like syphilis. Enjoyable while you're working on it, but then a pain in the nethers that never gets any better.

The good thing is, either you're in control, or you never worry about it. Either way, you're happy.

In fact, I'd say you'd be happier not in control. No need to worry about the logictics. Just enjoy free everything, and have a programmed amnesia when you start to have doubts.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

It sounds fun like syphilis. Enjoyable while you're working on it, but then a pain in the nethers that never gets any better.

And easily curable with a course of antibiotics?

[Mike_G]

And easily curable with a course of antibiotics?


Or dilation of your Johnson with a steel rod.

Which is about how much I think I'd enjoy the Tippyverse.

[Dervag]

Welll... Greater good, yadda, yadda, yadda. Solars are so good they would probably be against it (being humble is one of their main shticks, after all), but I can totally see Asura or Eladrin going for this: magic utopia -> no more good outsiders. Since good is already struggling and only still alive thanks to the blood war, they have to prevent this.Alternatively, the way in which Good outsiders might break up a Tippian society might be different. Evil outsiders just tear the place apart; Good outsiders stage a bloodless coup, usher the key people to beautiful resort towns on the upper planes, cure the Mind Raped minions, and start a church dedicated to keeping all the former inhabitants alive until they can fend for themselves again. It's much more expensive that way. But you might well wind up with the Tippy wizards as your friends, as a benefit, instead of having to try to kill them, which is going to be costly.


too much sci-fi? isn't traditional fantasy just Scifi with "technobabble" replaced with "Arcanobabble" and everyone dresses in poofy pants & tights while smelling like pigs & cows?Ah, no.

First of all, there is a LOT of science fiction where the "technobabble" isn't babble. Second of all, most traditional fantasy has an entirely different flavor from most traditional science fiction, because science fiction is set in a world that keeps up the pretense "this could be our future," while fantasy does not. Moreover, most technology in nearly all science fiction works for everyone; magic usually doesn't.

The genres blur together at the edges, but that doesn't mean they're interchangeable.


Again, you cannot both be good and be against a Tippyverse-style utopia. If the forces of Chaotic Good care more about staving off their own obselesence than actually achieving good, they are not Good.The problem is that the Tippyverse comes in multiple varieties: utopian and dystopian. The version in which everyone is Mind Raped into submission is the bad version, but it's also the more stable one because the possibility of rebellion is largely eliminated.


Big Brother is watching this threadWell, I hope he learns something.


Plato's Atlantis fell after the Atlantians became wicked and impious.

The real Atlantis fell because the Ancients lost a war against the vast hordes of the Wraith, forcing them to hide the city for many millenia.No, no no, the real Atlantis fell because Gharlane of Eddore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharlane_of_Eddore_(Fictional_alien)) manipulated its colonies into blowing it up with a nuclear strike! Sheesh, nobody gets it right...

[Pharaoh's Fist]

No, no no, the real Atlantis fell because Gharlane of Eddore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharlane_of_Eddore_(Fictional_alien)) manipulated its colonies into blowing it up with a nuclear strike! Sheesh, nobody gets it right...
You! Obey the fist!

[LibraryOgre]

He has what he wants.

Not sure where you're getting that from. The way I see the Tippyverse, is it is ruled by extremely powerful wizards and the like. Some people will not be extremely powerful wizards, but still want to be in charge. That's where the demons come in.

EDIT: Ah, looked again. See, while many people will be content with having food and shelter and the like looked after, some will not, unless you mindrape EVERYONE into being happy about it... and no one saves or otherwise overcomes it. If you create a Brave New World, there will always be someone who is dissatisfied with their lot... it's human nature. The number will be fewer, but they'll be there. Some who are dissatisfied will be evil bastards, willing to sell out others to get ahead. That's where the demons come in... indirect influence keeping at bay the Legions of Heaven.

Heck, it doesn't even have to be demons... one of the wizard-kings could do it. Or someone from another plane.



So let me get this straight: when they ruin utopia, it's evil, but when the outsiders ruin utopia, it's not evil?
Who said it's not evil? We're talking about destroying hundreds, maybe thousands, of lives for personal power. Increasing pain and suffering just to get ahead. It's horribly evil. But it means you don't need hosts of demons to cause the problem.


People in an ultra-high fantasy world are more free, not less. Do you know why? Because servitude is no longer necessary to satisfy their wants and needs. If you gave a hunter-gatherer a magic food generator you have not enslaved him to the button, you have freed him from the need to spend most of his waking hours just trying to survive. Society is both more lawful and more chaotic, for the better.

I don't think that a lawful or chaotic being will see it that way.

[unre9istered]

Out of curiosity, what prevents a tippyverse from arising in an RPGA game?

[jseah]

Mark Hall: Perhaps you do not see this, but Tippyverse is a post-scarcity situation. Anything you want, including being in-charge, is possible.

The Tippyverse is governed by a continuous future-monitoring divination computer. It runs on it's own. Those guys have no chance of upsetting it. You can upset your own private paradise if it makes you happy. You won't ever get to see another person's private paradise (you can get a simulated copy of it, but not the real thing)

[Johel]

Out of curiosity, what prevents a tippyverse from arising in an RPGA game?

The DM
And the sanity of players.

[unre9istered]

The DM
And the sanity of players.

I thought RPGA ran strictly by RAW. Is the gentleman's agreement what you mean or do the DM's have some latitude to deal with unruly players.

[Johel]

I thought RPGA ran strictly by RAW. Is the gentleman's agreement what you mean or do the DM's have some latitude to deal with unruly players.

Well, both...
The gentleman agreement is that you don't abuse RAW.
If said agreement is broken, you haven't broke any rule so technically, you aren't cheating, you're just being a jerk.
This being said, nothing prevent the DM, using strict RAW, to simply be a jerk too, this without even trying.
At this point, people stop having fun pretty quickly.

[The Big Dice]

Mark Hall: Perhaps you do not see this, but Tippyverse is a post-scarcity situation. Anything you want, including being in-charge, is possible.

The Tippyverse is governed by a continuous future-monitoring divination computer. It runs on it's own. Those guys have no chance of upsetting it. You can upset your own private paradise if it makes you happy. You won't ever get to see another person's private paradise (you can get a simulated copy of it, but not the real thing)

There is a sci-fi version of this. It's called the Culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture

This is basically the technological version of the Tippyverse, if the Tippyverse was run by benevolent outsiders rather than the Culture's Minds.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's a real easy answer in Forgotten Realms at least. Mystra said no. :smalltongue:

[Runestar]

What would be so bad about this tippyverse? Seems kinda cool - like skeletons providing free labour, clerical healing being cheap and readily available (subsidized healthcare!), bricks of sending as mobile phones etc.

I can even imagine every commoner receiving some sort of magical training and being able to at least cast a few cantrips of their own.

None of this would directly impact the party's ability to overcome challenges, since it won't affect their stats one bit. Rather, it is mostly background fluff that largely becomes irrelevant once they enter a dungeon.

So how is it powergamish?

[JonestheSpy]

What would be so bad about this tippyverse? Seems kinda cool - like skeletons providing free labour, clerical healing being cheap and readily available (subsidized healthcare!), bricks of sending as mobile phones etc.

I can even imagine every commoner receiving some sort of magical training and being able to at least cast a few cantrips of their own.

None of this would directly impact the party's ability to overcome challenges, since it won't affect their stats one bit. Rather, it is mostly background fluff that largely becomes irrelevant once they enter a dungeon.

So how is it powergamish?

What it is is boring, at least to me. Magic= technology is not magical, so to speak.

There have been some books written like this - the ones that first spring to mind are Piers Anthony's "Incarnations of Immortality" series. Magic coexists with modern technology as is just as mundane. So who cares?

There was actually was actually a tippyverse episode in the world history of Glorantha, the world of the old Runequest game (best developed world evar, imo). A few hundred years before the period when the game's standard setting occurs, a civilization called the Jrusteli God-Learners built an empire by acting exactly like internet powergame theorizers: They went and learned as much they possibly could about gods, magic, spirits, etc, everywhere they traveled, broke it down into its component parts, and figured out all sorts of new ways to use it. I believe the final straw was when they created a factory mass-producing magical swords. All the old powers put aside their differences to wipe them out.

[2xMachina]

Well, in Tippyverse, there is no need to adventure.

In fact, I'd say that Tippyverse MIGHT have happened, we just don't get to play on it, cause there's no demand for adventurers (all monsters are defeated and all new ones are conjured). Heck, adventuring might just be LARP for them.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... I can see adventurers being sort of extreme sport athletes. People watching teams blaze through a dungeon/obstacle course for Sponsorship and bragging rights. I thought I say an rpg that was something like that someplace.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Hmm... I can see adventurers being sort of extreme sport athletes. People watching teams blaze through a dungeon/obstacle course for Sponsorship and bragging rights. I thought I say an rpg that was something like that someplace.I remember Tippy mentioning that anyone who falls can get True Rez'd by a trap, so people do blood sports for fun. Though they can remove the option of Rezzing for more danger.

[Omegonthesane]

Well, in Tippyverse, there is no need to adventure.

In fact, I'd say that Tippyverse MIGHT have happened, we just don't get to play on it, cause there's no demand for adventurers (all monsters are defeated and all new ones are conjured). Heck, adventuring might just be LARP for them.

Where are people getting the idea that there's nothing to adventure for in Tippyverse? The Emperor's actual description was that there are lots of individual Tippy city-states, each headed by one wizard or cabal of wizards, and they have standing armies to defend against eachother and against the horde of monsters Outside that no one city-state can individually defeat. He even pointed out that you could do the classic ruins dive by going to a city-state that had fallen, and suggested what type of party would be likely to live and adventure Outside - what kind of people the wizards don't care enough to help.

[mostlyharmful]

Where are people getting the idea that there's nothing to adventure for in Tippyverse? The Emperor's actual description was that there are lots of individual Tippy city-states, each headed by one wizard or cabal of wizards, and they have standing armies to defend against eachother and against the horde of monsters Outside that no one city-state can individually defeat. He even pointed out that you could do the classic ruins dive by going to a city-state that had fallen, and suggested what type of party would be likely to live and adventure Outside - what kind of people the wizards don't care enough to help.

personally I'd have a tippyverse as this rather than an infinitely expanding utopia/dystopia..

The guys and girls and fish incharge have got there by there own sweat and risk and by now understand the role that plays in creating a healthy society and a sane set of family/friends for themselves.

They have what they and their immediates need, beyound the range of their city walls what do they need to disturb the dinosaurs and dragons for exactly?

When population becomes an issue it can be resolved with contraception/education and firm laws on right to reproduce.

If you want a constantly expanding powerbase then you'll run into problems with all the other high levellers/outsiders and it's generally not worth the hastle.

By getting to be a high level caster you've proved that what you really really want to be is a higher level caster and maybe get laid on the side and the city state is all you need for that, so why bother?

[Roderick_BR]

Where are people getting the idea that there's nothing to adventure for in Tippyverse? The Emperor's actual description was that there are lots of individual Tippy city-states, each headed by one wizard or cabal of wizards, and they have standing armies to defend against eachother and against the horde of monsters Outside that no one city-state can individually defeat. He even pointed out that you could do the classic ruins dive by going to a city-state that had fallen, and suggested what type of party would be likely to live and adventure Outside - what kind of people the wizards don't care enough to help.
That gave me an idea for an interesting idea. Get a classic group, nearly epic level, get lost in time or something, returning some centuries later, and finding tippycities in war with each other. A sort of "5 minutes in the future" but keeping the medieval fantasy theme. Bonus points if they are strong meeler classes (like ToB) that are the only one know that hold knowledge of the old stuff (kinda like that Demolition Man movie, where no one knows how to fight well in the future).

[2xMachina]

Well, I'm taking Tippyverse in a less definite sense. Merely a world where physic loopholes are exploited with infinite magic.

That kind of world, can be anything. I just thought of it is a singular front where the only opposition are the outsiders, and even then, held off with infinite magic (and chain-gating the other side.) Pit fiends invading? Looky here, Solars are here too. And out infinite repeating traps + loopholes.

The good's are more likely to band together. They'd be able to hedge off the evil Tippy wizards, and you'd end up with allied Tippy countries of LG/NG/CG, where emigration is easy. Don't like lawful? Head over to CG Tippy. Everyone's happy. Except the evils. Neutrals don't mind.

And they should research Cloister as soon as possible. Lock down the areas so that nothing can teleport in, but can teleport around inside. All borders are blocked, with gateways closely guarded.

[Debihuman]

Out of curiosity, what prevents a tippyverse from arising in an RPGA game?

Wouldn't it be the XP cost?

Debby

[Tyndmyr]

Well, see, by pouring magic into technology, you end up in a technologically advanced world entirely depleted of magic.

The Tippyverse happened. We're in it.

[Raven the Rogue]

Actually a Tippyverse of some kind seems like a logical result of high level magic. Yes gods could intervene to stop a Tippyverse from forming but that is more of an explanation of why one doesn't already exist in a setting that otherwise has high level magic (like the Forgotten Realms) rather than an explanation for why one can't exist under the rules.

Beyond that, I think a Tippyverse game might be a fun game to play and there are plenty of adventure hooks for them. Maybe a group of dissidents are sabotaging the magic devices that run the city and it's your job to hunt them down. Or maybe your adventurers have somehow woken up from the mind control and have realized that the machines that supply their every desires are run on the souls of their fellow citizens. You could be sent to spy on a rival city-state. You could be exiled from your city state and have to survive in the no-mans land outside. Outsiders could be invading your city. If you have powergaming players this would be a good way to stick them in a game where they encounter powergaming NPCs and villains.

[Witty Username]

In a tippyverse game I play, it was just assumed that mindrape was too expensive, Diplomacy/mirrorcasting works well.

[taltamir]

I remember Tippy mentioning that anyone who falls can get True Rez'd by a trap, so people do blood sports for fun. Though they can remove the option of Rezzing for more danger.

its unreal tournament :)

[Eldan]

Hmm... I can see adventurers being sort of extreme sport athletes. People watching teams blaze through a dungeon/obstacle course for Sponsorship and bragging rights. I thought I say an rpg that was something like that someplace.

I faintly remember that setting, yes. Something with "dungeon" in it's title. I haven't played it, but the books looked funny. You had to find sponsors for your team, then let them fight in dungeons for the benefit of viewers.

[Justin B.]

If the Gods have a reason for preventing Tippyverse, it's as easy as changing the laws of existence to no longer allow continuous use magical items. They're Gods, they can do this. Tippyverse prevented, no evil is done.