How to make my Players HATE this villian?

[Crow]

The villian in our upcoming campaign is going to be the Queen of the land. With the King recently dead (some sy she had a hand in the deed), she wants to sieze complete power for herself. However, she first needs to eliminate the other legitamate claimants to the throne (The King's brother, and his sons).

(please no discussions on royal lineages and whatnot. The King's brother/sons are the next heirs, and eliminating them will get her the crown in this setting, so let's leave it at that.)

The players are coming in at a time when the Queen's forces are going to be closing in on the remaining heir, which they will need to spirit away to safety. She has not consolidated her power, so many towns and at least one city will not be in her complete control yet. However, the captain of the watch in this particular town, having heard that the Queen's forces are coming, will have already thrown the heir in jail for keeping until her arrival, and will not be helpful to the players.

The queen herself is a highly intelligent seductress type. I have not decided on a class for her, but I have decided that she has a secret past, being the child of a hobgoblin/human union, which is not readily apparent in her appearance. Her position of queen was aquired through many deceptions and misdeeds, and she harbors a hatred for those she rules due to the rampant predjudice her family suffered at the hands of humans when she was just a girl. Her eventual goal (whether possible or not) is to overturn the primarily human aristocracy, and replace it with a goblinoid regime in which humans would be second-class citizens, or even slaves.

What can I do in this first session (rescue the heir) that will evoke a strong feeling of anger or hatred towards this queen? I want the players to absolutely HATE her. I want them to be genuinely angry, and am not sure what I can do to them at this level (they are starting at 3), to get this reaction. If there is some way that I can get the desired effect through the actions of a subordinate, that would be even better.

So, as you can see, I am in need of help. So any suggestions you guys can offer would be great.

[konfeta]

Rust Monsters?

[Temotei]

One of the books describes how to make a good villain...(no, not good-aligned...one that's so mean the players might cry...not really).

[Serpentine]

The thing that always gets to me (in movies, books, etc) is supreme injustice. Alas, I don't think I can come up with very good examples, nor am I sure how you could incorporate it... But, you know, false accusations, conspiracies against individuals, persecution of loved-ones just to get at a victim, destruction of evidence just before it can be shown to people who matter... That sort of thing.

[evil-frosty]

What is the party made up of? This can help if your party is into roleplaying a little bit more then just kill, loot, rinse and repeat. So if the cleric is a cleric of Pelor have her use undead willingly. Also the BoVD is very good for this type of thing. Somethings in it though are more for mature players, and parts and really sick.

[Sploosh]

Step one) Seduce a PC
Step two) Give them a disease
Step three) Steal his/her stuff
Step four) Constantly remind him/her of it whenever possible

[Graywolf]

Have her employ reoccurring villains that keep getting away. The only thing they should hate more than her are the recurring villains themselves.

[Tavar]

Well, you can't do this often, but note NPC's that are important to the players. Work them being killed by the Queen into the story somehow. For instance, say they break the heir out of jail, and hide him in the town. When the queen comes, have her assemble the townsfolk, and demand to know who's responsible. When no one answers, have her start randomly selecting villagers to make examples of. Don't include all of the Important NPC's, but make sure to have some.

[Raging Gene Ray]

The best I can come up with is have them be the only ones who know of the Queen's misdeeds.

Nobody believes the PCs or helps them, in fact, everyone who SHOULD want the Queen destroyed (or deposed or defeated or defenestrated) will either shun the PCs, accuse them of treason, and say they couldn't POSSIBLY know what they're talking about because the Queen is such a saint.

An added bonus is when the injustice of the Queen's spotless reputation finally pushes them to the breaking point, you get to see if they take some of their anger out on the NPC cleric who refuses to heal them until they swear allegiance to the Queen, or any other innocent but ignorant NPC.


The thing that always gets to me (in movies, books, etc) is supreme injustice. Alas, I don't think I can come up with very good examples, nor am I sure how you could incorporate it... But, you know, false accusations, conspiracies against individuals, persecution of loved-ones just to get at a victim, destruction of evidence just before it can be shown to people who matter... That sort of thing.

Yeah, something like that!

[Longcat]

Make her cross a Moral Event Horizon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralEventHorizon).

One of the scenes that startled me greatly was the following scene in Berserk:
The protagonist walks into a town, and bears witness to an execution. The person to be executed is a young woman, and her younger brother (still a child) begs a nearby priest to release her. The priest, however, threatens to charge the boy with heresy (which equals death), and proceeds to execute the innocent girl desperately pleading for her life.

Replace the priest with the queen, and you're good to go.

[Zincorium]

Third Serpentine on the major injustice.

Say, one of the PCs is hired to act as a messenger, conveying a message to one of the queen's retinue. The queen decides, using convoluted logic, that one of the group has insulted the crown and the entire group is sentenced to be put into the stocks for a week.

The queen then snidely remarks "I'd like to see you resist..."

[KillianHawkeye]

Well if you want to get started right away, your first opportunity seems to be with this watch captain. If he's already imprisoned the Prince, then he's clearly on the Queen's side. So make this guy an utter bastard. A corrupt cop who thinks he practically owns the place. Make sure that the Prince is really mistreated, and let the PCs overhear the captain gloating about the rewards the Queen will grant him for being the one who captured the final legitimate heir.

Optionally, you can have them identified during the rescue attempt and have them accused of kidnapping the Prince. Then the Queen can put some nice, juicy bounties on the party's heads. They'll be hating her in no time. :smallwink:

[Darius Rae]

Step one) Seduce a PC
Step two) Give them a disease
Step three) Steal his/her stuff
Step four) Constantly remind him/her of it whenever possible

Also start her out undercover, as a DMPC :smallyuk:

[CoffeeIncluded]

How about:

Create a recurring NPC that the characters grow a soft spot for. Say, for example, a messenger who becomes friendly with the PCs, and delivers important news and random stories and sometimes slips in little items (And sometimes big items) for the PCs in their messages.

And then have the NPC publicly executed/killed/something by the queen and there's nothing the PCs can do to stop it.

Sorry if it's a bit hard to understand; I'm tired and about to go to sleep.

[UglyPanda]

You don't need to have The Queen actually show up or do anything in order to make the PCs hate her.

You could have the PCs meet one of the heirs, and just make him a really nice guy who is wracked with stress trying to hide from The Queen. Or have roaming groups in the army kidnapping and torturing anyone who knows anything about the heirs.

Alternatively, you could just make her seem perfectly reasonable and invites one of the heirs to dinner. At dinner, one of the guards "defects" and attacks the heir*. The Queen feigns shock and walks away with a clearly visible smile on her face as the traitor guard is immediately executed.


If you create NPCs who exist only to be killed, be sure not to do it too often. Otherwise you end up with PCs who don't care about NPCs because they know you're just doing it to tug at their heartstrings.

*Whether or not the assassination attempt succeeds is up to taste.

[deuxhero]

Have her openly slap around an assistant for bringing her bad news despite the assists apparent loyalty?

[taltamir]

normally I would say have her frame the PCs for something... problem is, she is the frigging queen, she doesn't need to frame them....

mmm, but she could, oh yes! Have the PCs do several missions in an orphanage or some such... somewhere with children... let them roleplay the downtime so they grow attached a bit...

then have her and her men slay them (the orphans), leave a few alive as the PCs come back, pretend to want to blackmail them but in the end just admit she was playing them all along and execute them... make sure she has a high level wizard and a contingent teleport ready so that she gets out while laughing... immediately afterward hear the villagers come, the PCs can recognize some of the queens men amongst the villagers in peasant clothing, they are an angry mob out for the blood of the murderers, pretty enflamed too, if the PCs do kill some of the queens undercover men, then it is taken as them slaying helpless villagers...

The PCs escape, afterwards there are signs everywhere looking for the band of heinous killers, people scream and run when they see them, or offer "evil" jobs to the kindred spirits, random paladins try to slay them, etc...

[Xyk]

Have her take the PCs loot? That's a sure-fire way to make them want her dead.

[taltamir]

Have her take the PCs loot? That's a sure-fire way to make them want her dead.

lol... DISJUNCTION!


Rust Monsters?

yea, rust monsters work too... oh I fing hate those.

give her entourage a sunder monkey with a tricked out adamantium sword, and a sniper (as in... 3000 foot range bow class that does lots of damage and doesn't care much about cover... with force bolts... ooh that is the most hated enemy I have ever had.)

[Serpentine]

I think it's worth noting that, unless she's an extremely powerful despot, she will need the general goodwill of the public (or at least not enough illwill to make it worth revolution) in order to rule. Therefore, any villiany will probably be generally secret or with very good PR attached to them. And/or, target a disliked minority...

[Raging Gene Ray]

Have her openly slap around an assistant for bringing her bad news despite the assists apparent loyalty?

Eh, that's par for the course for BBEGs. She needs something that stirs up genuine resentment not "hey, look, there's the generic minion-abuse. LOL!"

Besides, they know the Queen's Evil, they know the assistant knows the Queen's Evil, so why should they feel sorry for the Evil-Aiding schmuck?

[Hawk7915]

Yet another vote on injustice, in two different ways. The first, as suggested, is RP/story injustice: this woman is a merciless monster who eats babies and kicks puppies if it furthers her goals. She launches a smear campaign against the heroes, frames them for the death of the heir, gets them arrested, kidnaps their loved ones, seduces then poisons them and steals all their stuff, etc. By the end of the first campaign, everyone should be screaming "But it's not FAIR!".

Second, mechanically injust. Whatever she is, she's way too much for them now in terms of a fair encounter. And she's always just out of reach. She's flying. Or on a balcony with a legion of archers around her. Or she drops a Solid Fog and smacks everyone with wands of confusion and then laughs and runs away. Whatever the heroes do, they can inconvenience her...but they can't kill her, and every encounter with her is an exercise in frustration and eye-gouging misery. Especially when, as they are helplessly fogged/confused/hold-personed/stranded across the chasm, she's doing the aforementioned evil stuff :smallamused:.

Be careful on the second point; it takes a special kind of playgroup to enjoy an encounter with an enemy who's main form of attack is to make them a bunch of helpless slobbering fools who skip 80% of their turns. But they will most assuredly both hate and dread her.

EDIT: As far as statting her out, she can honestly (and it would be really funny) just be an expert with maxed out UMD and a solid CHA and INT...or a Rogue if you want a little more oomph. A caster enemy would be easiest to turn into a invincible hate-machine, but then you run into the problem of "if she's a 10th wizard, why all the subterfuge?"

[Drekk]

Perhaps the PC's get involved in killing some goblinoids (friends/relatives of this queen?), and they make it known they did so, expecting a reward, a bounty, etc...And the queen (through indirect channels, but obvious enough that someone from on high hates the PC's guts) sticks it to the PC's. She has ridiculous charges drawn up, and throws them in jail indefinitely after a farce trial, forcing them to devise an escape and find out who has it in for them. :smallwink:

[Fishy]

Pull a Kefka. Might not be effective for her first entrance, but if the PCs are making her life difficult, but she knows where the last heir is going to be, isn't it simpler and easier to just destroy the entire town?

[taltamir]

EDIT: As far as statting her out, she can honestly (and it would be really funny) just be an expert with maxed out UMD and a solid CHA and INT...or a Rogue if you want a little more oomph. A caster enemy would be easiest to turn into a invincible hate-machine, but then you run into the problem of "if she's a 10th wizard, why all the subterfuge?"

as a monarch (to be), she is one of the few people rich enough to afford using an expensive consumeable on every damn attack via umd of high level spells :)


Perhaps the PC's get involved in killing some goblinoids (friends/relatives of this queen?), and they make it known they did so, expecting a reward, a bounty, etc...And the queen (through indirect channels, but obvious enough that someone from on high hates the PC's guts) sticks it to the PC's. She has ridiculous charges drawn up, and throws them in jail indefinitely after a farce trial, forcing them to devise an escape and find out who has it in for them. :smallwink:

well... they did just murder some cute little goblins and stole their stuff, only because their skin color is different.


By the end of the first campaign, everyone should be screaming "But it's not FAIR!".
They totally should

[Rasman]

you can always go with the "you're just pawns and I'm the ultimate badguy, so I can just do away with you as I please" trope, since she hates humans anyway. Once her subordinates fail in a task, have her either "kill them" or do something "OMG Look at that" to them. Something like mixing in something into their food that turns them into mindless zombies because some of them had second thoughts.

A good way of going about this is developing a NPC that is really helpful an nice to your PCs, but the Queen ends up doing something evil to them, the simplest form being killing them. Give your players someone the can bond with and identify with and then kill them off, that's how you make someone really hateable.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

One phrase:

"By the power of the Moon, I will Punish You!"

If that doesn't get them pissed, nothing will.

[Reluctance]

Have her take the PCs loot? That's a sure-fire way to make them want her dead.

This. If you want a visceral reaction from your players, degrade their characters. Destroying their stuff is the most reliable path to that. Let them find a magic item of awesomeness, let somebody close to the queen destroy the item of awesomeness, instant enmity.

Second only to that is forcing their characters to grovel - or else. People play for a vicarious sense of power. Strip them of that, force them to comply with an NPC's petty whims, and your players will want blood. Have one of the queen's trusted lieutenants notice the PCs and see them as troublemakers who need to be kept on the straight and narrow. After having to walk on eggshells for the town adventure, they'll jump at the chance to cut her down to size.

[Demented]

Pull a Kefka. Might not be effective for her first entrance, but if the PCs are making her life difficult, but she knows where the last heir is going to be, isn't it simpler and easier to just destroy the entire town?

Though, one can't just go destroying a town willy nilly. Unless you're Kefka, of course. However, if the town were unwilling or unable to hand over the crown prince...

This also gives a reason for why the captain of the watch is holding the heir prisoner but hasn't killed him himself; the captain wants to save the town but can see no other way than to surrender the heir to the queen. The captain can, of course, be given enough hope to try a different tact when dealing with the queen's forces... ("Your crown prince is another castle.")

...But if anything happens other than the heir being handed immediately over to the queen's forces, the town burns and the captain with it.

Edit:
Oh, and if the queen ever acquires something of a PC's, she must use it. Preferably against the PCs. It's just more fun that way.

[Lapak]

If it's not too late to do so, give them a prologue adventure first without giving them the background you just gave us. Have them working for a good and noble gentleman by recovering a valuable magic item that was stolen from the royal vaults before it can be used in an assassination attempt against the King. Make it tough on them. Make them sweat it out and recover the item at the last moment, right as the assassin is lurking in His Majesty's bedroom. They'll return the item, they'll be rewarded, everything will be great...

And then the King will be murdered, and they'll be attacked by the noble gentleman, and when they beat him he will reveal that the 'assassin' was a spy working for the King, who had found the item in the Queen's possession. That he hired them to stop the spy from telling the king and get it back. And that because of them, her assassination attempt went just as planned.

They will HATE her for making them her tools in this, especially if they are left with no proof at the end.

[Kelunas]

I'm a fan of hypocrisy, guilt and trickery. Get the queen's minions to trick the players (Who I'm assuming tend towards good) into having a hand in the execution of one of the sons. This can be indirect like providing critical information or an item to the assassins. Present this as a typical adventurer task without any obvious link to the local politics. Make the assassinated son perticularly good natured and good with the population.

Have her stand politically for equality, kindness and freedom. Then let the players learn of her plans for the enslaving of humans and the roll the party played in the assassination. Bonus points if the son was working towards bringing equality and peace between the two races. The sense of responsibility towards the remaining sons, the horrible hypocrisy of her plans and the fact that she tricked the party into helping her will build serious hatred.

Also, having the party loose an item (or merely the opportunity of acquiring an item) works too.

[Jerthanis]

Honestly, I think hatred of villains is kind of a crap-shoot in RPGs. Sometimes the PCs will generate huge emotion to killing the BBEG if you give him a goatee and a half-cool catchphrase.

Sometimes you can have them personally brainwash one character's girlfriend to serve evil, kill another PC outright, and raze a village to the ground for no reason and the PCs won't be more than annoyed by them.

First of all, don't tell the PCs her backstory. Personally it made me think to myself, "poor girl... good for her for rising to the top against terrible adversity". It's a sympathetic reason to be a villain, so it's not conducive to making them hate her.

I really don't have any ideas as to how to make them hate her in the FIRST session. If the PCs interact with a really sympathetic and likable Guard Captain, and then he shows up to arrest the PCs as traitors on the order of the Queen, the PCs will have to resist arrest. They will resent being forced to hurt a person themselves more than they would resent a person they like being hurt.

[Thajocoth]

Do you want just the PCs to hate her? Or everyone to?

If she does something evil enough, then it's obvious to hate her, but too evil, and everyone would hate her. It's a delicate balance.

Since the place the party's starting isn't completely under her control yet, it should seem pretty good... Maybe even a sort of Renaissance. But in a place where she is in control... Paint it more like the Dark Ages. That shows that she's evil, without really making everyone hate her, as most NPCs might not notice the difference. But, while this makes her obviously evil to the PCs (probably), it might not be enough to make the PCs actively hate her.

But if you just outright have her publicly slaughter peasants for her banquets... Then no one who isn't very evil should support her out of anything but fear.

It's a delicate balance...

Also, don't forget the rule of 3. Anything you want the PCs to know needs 3 ways to discover, as they'll miss 2 completely. I think this extends to her being evil.

[Longcat]

1. Make her a DMPC
2. Let her travel undercover with the party
3. Hog the spotlight with her
4. Make the party share their loot with her
5. Actively use Sunder/Shatter
6. When the time for her Heel Face Turn (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn) comes, utilize Disjunction on the party
7. From that point on, the Queen's troops will always attempt to Sunder/Shatter, and have the appropriate feats to do so.
8. In every major fight involving the Queen, at least one Disjunction will be cast on the party.

[akma]

You could make the queen make up ridiculus rumors on the adventureres after the first time they thwart her plans. For exemple, if they will save the prince, then say the queen will call for officers to arrest them for necrophilia, or other similier thing that counts as sick, especially a thing that will gross the players.
Also, I think methods like sunder, disjunction, and favourite NPC, will make the players hate you as much as they will hate the queen.

[kamikasei]

Honestly, I think hatred of villains is kind of a crap-shoot in RPGs.

Agreed. Really, you need to have a few gambits you can try and deploy them carefully according to your reading of your players. No single idea is guaranteed to work.


I really don't have any ideas as to how to make them hate her in the FIRST session.

And doubly agreed here. A more modest goal will probably work better. Ease them in to it. A sacrificial NPC, and/or a betrayal, could work well. I agree with the other posters who advise keeping the queen from being publicly and visibly evil.

Say, the players arrive at a border town which is being threatened by goblinoids. The heir is based there, a real upstanding type, no desire for power, happy to protect the town/county/whatever that he owns (he's pretty low in the pecking order of the kingdom), but if duty calls him to take the throne he'd make a good king. The players spend a session or two helping the heir defend the town. They do a good job. Everything's great, they're getting to be real heroes and making a difference in these people's lives.

Then the troops the queen sent to reinforce the town turn around, open the gates to the goblins, and start slaughtering the townsfolk. As well as getting rid of the heir, she's getting rid of the witnesses by making the town a casus belli to increase her own power via fear of an external threat. (Eventually she'll bring up enough forces of goblinoid tribes organized and equipped by her to properly invade the kingdom, with an eventual outcome of her 'surrender' in a way that maintains her power structure but replaces the human aristocracy with goblinoid warlords.)

Let the players witness the heir's death, ideally after a "this is why I'm killing you" speech from his assassin which points out that it's all part of the queen's plan (without giving too much away, of course). Getting them out of there might be tricky, as the queen's troops want to leave no survivors, but you can come up with something. The essential point is to not just have her do something evil but destroy something good that the players had worked hard to accomplish - and had succeeded in!

If the party makeup lends itself in any way to its members being discredited in their claims against the queen (some of them are goblinoid, or some other race or nationality against which prejudice can be stirred up; they're a member of an organization which can be accused of sedition), they're suddenly in a fight-the-power situation where most people they meet will see them as, directly or indirectly, agents of the kingdom's enemies.

[soir8]

I like to introduce some adorable child or charming and beautiful woman, who the PCs grow close to. Then I have them die horribly.

[Demented]

You are an awful person.
For making me smile.

[paddyfool]

If the PCs get the heir away OK, have her agents start rumours that the PCs are evil demon-worshipping cultist paedophiles who want the kid for some obscene ritual. Or better still, have her openly announce this in public and put a hefty bounty on their heads ...

EDIT: Oh, wait, Akma got there first.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

In general, I find getting the players to hate X is a two or three step process:

Step 1: Get the players emotionally invested in Y.
Step 2: Destroy or steal/kidnap Y.
Step 3: (Optional) Have X gloat about destroying Y.

Y can be anything really. Cool gear can work if your players are the sort to go 'A +3 sword of killstabbing! AWESOME!' as soon as they get their grubby hands on it. :smallamused:

Otherwise NPCs can work well, although you have to make sure your players really, genuinely like said NPC before killing him/her/it off. It usually takes a few sessions for that. Also, it's not a good idea to try to get players to like something too hard. If they can tell they're supposed to like someone, they will probably dislike (but not hate) him/her/it. In general, who players like and dislike is a slightly random thing. This method may require some patience.

Other things players tend to get invested in: Reputation, pets, personal freedom (chucking PCs in jail is the number 1 cause of death amongst villains), etc. Broadly speaking, anything 'theirs'

[Xuincherguixe]

In addition to the other suggestions....

Have them accuse the PCs of doing everything they do, with no sense of irony. They will insist nothing they do is ever wrong.

And for some inexplicable reason, the towns people love her even as she steps all over them.

Have the PCs charged with Treason. Even the ones not necessarily of that nation.

Go full on fascist here.

If you're willing to go pitch black dark, you've got a lot of options. Have others suffer whenever the players challenge the Queen. Even if they have a clever plan which saves everyone... innocents somewhere are punished for your actions.

An Ogre might be eating a small child. When the PCs try to kill it, the Guards step in and arrest them. Turns out the Ogre is the Queens black knight. Naturally, they would be charged with cannibalism.

All the towns people should be too terrified to rebel. And some of them get killed under suspicion of being rebels anyways.

Mind you a lot of this only works if the Queen was already an established power.

And if they ever do kill her? They'll be arrested and put up for execution. From which they should probably escape.

And if you want to be a real bastard, the lack of leadership causes the nation to descend into Anarchy and everyone starts killing each other.


*coughs* Might have gone a little overboard there... but you get the idea.


You could also give her the traits of all sorts of people you can't stand.


Good idea to give her a cabal of followers as well. Every good villain needs henchmen. They should naturally be as awful as she is. An Assassin is probably someone good to have here. Eliminate her rivals in addition to someone to throw at the PCs.

[taltamir]

you can always go with the "you're just pawns and I'm the ultimate badguy, so I can just do away with you as I please" trope, since she hates humans anyway. Once her subordinates fail in a task, have her either "kill them" or do something "OMG Look at that" to them. Something like mixing in something into their food that turns them into mindless zombies because some of them had second thoughts.

why would anyone hate the villian for dishing out well deserved comeuppance to their evil minions? i'd say the bastards deserved it for their evil crimes... and should have known better than to work with Evil TM

[Choco]

I really don't have any ideas as to how to make them hate her in the FIRST session. If the PCs interact with a really sympathetic and likable Guard Captain, and then he shows up to arrest the PCs as traitors on the order of the Queen, the PCs will have to resist arrest. They will resent being forced to hurt a person themselves more than they would resent a person they like being hurt.

Yeah.. I don't know how much they already know, but getting the players to hate a queen that is loved (or at the very least not hated) by the general population would usually involve them learning some insider information.

On that note, WHY are the PC's saving this heir? They must already be involved somehow.

But going off of Jerthanis' guard captain example, I would say do just that. Make the guard captain a standup guy just doing what he can for the community, or even better, have him be a close friend to the heir. Then he is forced into imprisoning and turning over the heir to save his town (have the PC's find out about this somehow). Of course when the PC's break the heir out of prison the guard captain will follow. They will defeat him and probably leave him alive (maybe here he could explain why he wants the heir back so bad). Then have the queen have him executed for failing her.

EDIT: Depending on how long you want her to keep raping the dog, you could have her then kill off ALL the town guards after the captain is executed. Then tell the villagers they are probably better off without that useless rabble. Then just leave. This could create plot hooks for the PC's to defend the now defenseless town :smallamused:

[denthor]

Have murder pinned on the PC's by order or the Queen striped of all magic items and sent away. "Given a mission" one of the guards working for the underground knows it is a false rap.

Tells them on the way out and offers a sending scroll so they can come back when they are stronger.

Thus the adventure begins with them not being a threat to the queen and ends with the queen being the final battle.

[Deme]

My first plan would be something like this:

1: introduce an NPC. Someone helpless, likeable, and possibly useful, depending on the character. Don't make them look marked for death: make it look like they have plenty of things that will lead to future adventures somehow. Wait for the bond to grow a bit.

2: Have the queen be just about to kill them as the PCs come up. The reason must be absurdly petty. If anyone else would have been involved with that reason, have them be scattered around, already dead in awful ways.

3: When they protest, have the queen's guards hold them back. The Queen turns to them and says "if you do what I say, I could spare this maggot."

4: Have the queen, surrounded by her super-guards, order them to do humiliating things. Strip naked and bark like a dog. Lick the filfth and blood off of the boots of her seemingly invincible soldiers. If they at any point refuse, she kills the hostage personally and walks away, saying it's the PCs' fault. If they go along, I reccomend it creshendoing into a random but guessable question, maybe "What's my favorite color?" Whatever they answer, let it be right.

5: "Yes, very good. You play well," she'll say (or something like that.) And then she looks off to the side and kills the hostage. And then she walks away.

This won't work a second time, so make it good. I like this strategy because it is both sadistically injust, but also personally embaressing to the PCs. If they refuse, then maybe they'll get framed for the murder of the person, since the Queen says that it's their fault.

[Tar Palantir]

Have her Charm the party, preferably after doing some horribly evil thing like those previously mentioned. Charm spells are a declaration of war in my group.

[akma]

1: introduce an NPC. Someone helpless, likeable, and possibly useful, depending on the character. Don't make them look marked for death: make it look like they have plenty of things that will lead to future adventures somehow. Wait for the bond to grow a bit.

2: Have the queen be just about to kill them as the PCs come up. The reason must be absurdly petty. If anyone else would have been involved with that reason, have them be scattered around, already dead in awful ways.


The person could be a magic item trader, who will say he might be willing to send the players on missions to get magic items for him in the future and get paid for it, or already did that kind of deal (Crow said the players start the adventure in level 3). That way it`s a usefull NPC, and it looks like he will lead to many adventures, that`s why the players would be shocked when he will be killed and won`t see it coming.
The queen could kill him for refusing to give her a discount, or refusing to give her items for free.

[Deme]

The person could be a magic item trader, who will say he might be willing to send the players on missions to get magic items for him in the future and get paid for it, or already did that kind of deal (Crow said the players start the adventure in level 3). That way it`s a usefull NPC, and it looks like he will lead to many adventures, that`s why the players would be shocked when he will be killed and won`t see it coming.
The queen could kill him for refusing to give her a discount, or refusing to give her items for free.

Or not stocking her favorite shampoo. Or using goblinoid bits.

[JeenLeen]

I think it's hard and depends on the group. Do your players tend to get emotionally invested in characters, plot, etc? What would bother the players.

For me, I would most despise a BBEG who I thought was an ally or had been playing my character for a fool the entire campaign. That's hard in your setup. Maybe the queen has a general who is pretending to be an ally to the PCs; maybe he's even the victim of a Mindrape or other severe mind control effect so that he believes he is trying to help the PCs, but various 'command words' or actions will make him reveal his true loyalties.

If the PCs kill him, the queen laughs and says how he was just a mindraped puppet. If they try to save him, ...well, I'd make it possible, but maybe deep down he was evil, and it all was an act - he was even Mindraped into NG to better play the part.

I like having NPC allies and information sources, contacts I can trust as valid resources, so the above is a gut punch to me.

Of course, it's hard to get the PCs to like an NPC; they might take an interest in someone rather random, and ignore the person you hoped they'd befriend. Maybe introduce various ones and see which one they take a likening to?


I'd avoid the Sundering and Disjunctions, unless you will soon replace the destroyed gear -- that makes the player dislike the DM more than the BBEG. :smalltongue:

[Rhiannon87]

I'm gonna go back to my default response to this type of question: fear. Abject bloody fear. If your group is big into roleplaying, then the Queen and her allies need to make the party terrified at the thought of them-- not just the thought of going into battle, but the thought of what she can do to them. Kidnapping, torture, mental domination... Have her or her pet wizard scry on the party, read their thoughts, learn all their secrets, then use sending or telepathic links to get into their heads and taunt them. Psychological warfare. Figure out what each character is afraid of and use it against them ruthlessly.

Example: We're storming the bad guy's castle and come across a torture chamber. My character's father has threatened her with torture before (he's her boss as well as her father), and so that's a subject that's rather touchy for her. One of the other PCs in the party is her boyfriend, whom she's very very attached to. The bad guy Sends her a message saying basically "Hmm, I could throw your boyfriend on the rack there... you could sit in one of the thrones and watch as I flay the skin off him, wouldn't that be fun?". (The actual wording was much creepier, and the "throne" in question included manacles at the wrists and ankles, so... yeah.) Cue her freaking out while the rest of the party tries to negotiate with the creatures there without her.

The point: put the fear of the gods into your characters. Don't make them think she'll kill them, make them be afraid that she won't if she ever gets to them.

And all that being said: you cannot do that in one session. Can't be done. This level of fear takes a long time to build up. They break the heir out of jail, that brings them to her attention. She starts this campaign of terror against them, destroys their safe houses, hunts them with everything she has, gets inside their head, dominates trusted friends and allies and sets them against the party... by the time they finally go to face her, they will be terrified and utterly certain that this is a life-or-death situation. They have to kill her or they will be destroyed. Slowly and painfully.

[Flarp]

Simple - have her snatch away success from them at the last moment.

Make it look like everything is about to be okay - all plotlines are tied up, everyone is saved, there's no evil ontological inertia...

And then, the Queen appears and ruins it all.

For the cherry on top of the evil sundae (though this can sometimes be over-the-top and ruin it all, season to taste), have it be part of a massive xanatos gambit to completely screw the PCs over. Or, instead, have the Queen use the PC's recent adventures to pin all her misdeeds, which the PCs had just aquired evidence of, onto the good guys.

It is just a story - you can't really inspire Inigo Montoya hatred. Just absolute frustration - which is a powerful tool.

[reefwood]

If it's not too late to do so, give them a prologue adventure first without giving them the background you just gave us. Have them working for a good and noble gentleman by recovering a valuable magic item that was stolen from the royal vaults before it can be used in an assassination attempt against the King. Make it tough on them. Make them sweat it out and recover the item at the last moment, right as the assassin is lurking in His Majesty's bedroom. They'll return the item, they'll be rewarded, everything will be great...

And then the King will be murdered, and they'll be attacked by the noble gentleman, and when they beat him he will reveal that the 'assassin' was a spy working for the King, who had found the item in the Queen's possession. That he hired them to stop the spy from telling the king and get it back. And that because of them, her assassination attempt went just as planned.

They will HATE her for making them her tools in this, especially if they are left with no proof at the end.

I am really enjoying many of the ideas brought up in this thread. This one is my favorite so far. A couple things I'd like to toss into this scenario:

1) Getting into the King's bedroom seems like a difficult task unless the PCs are sneaky and/or can teleport, but maybe the PCs catch up with the "assassin" when the King is either a) traveling on the road or through town, or b) at a public event where the King is speaking (or at least present). Maybe the King knows there is a threat directed at him from somewhere close, so he chose to meet the "assassin" outside the castle to avoid anyone know that he and the "assassin" met or recovered the item.

2) After the death of the King is announced, maybe the PCs will return to the nobleman out of curiosity or to help find the new assassin. If not, the nobleman could call them to a meeting. Once the PCs arrive, the nobleman has his guards seize them/arrest them (or try). The nobleman will charge them with the murder of the King because the King was killed with that magic item, and the nobleman will claim that the magic item given to him by the PCs was a false copy and that they must have kept the real magic item to kill the King. Maybe the PCs end up in jail until trial and have to escape (perhaps with help from someone who was on the King's side and is trying to uncover the truth), or maybe they fight their way out of the nobleman's estate and are on the run and get contacted by the same person that would have helped them escape jail. This tweak does not give them the chance to learn learn stuff from the nobleman right away, but maybe they will in time, or maybe they still will right away if they kill the nobleman's guards and get him to confess (at least to them).

[Calmar]

I believe the PCs' hatred towards the queen should be nothing more or less than a pleasant side-effekt of her schemes.

It seems her primary goal is the subjugation of of humanity (and the other player races?) and the rise of the goblins within and maybe beyond the borders of her realm.

Since she has hobgoblin-blood running through her veins I assume she desires to raise up a realm of hobgoblins, rather than goblins, or even goblinoids in general, because as far as I know hobgoblins have little respect for the weak and pathetic goblins and the lazy and undisciplined scum bugbears are - at least that's the way I see it; quite similar to the relation between uruk-hai and orcs.

Apparently she can't simply invite her (hob)goblin - allies into the realm and establish them as ruling class without removing the noble opposition first. That is first of all the heir, but she also has to remove her current allies as well. After all it's one thing for a baron or duke to aid the royal party during a civil war and a radically different thing to allow a big bunch of bloodthirsty monsters to degrade yourself and your whole kin to second-class citizens.

That's where the PCs can get involved.

Some thoughts - that of course need to be fleshed out in any case: The PCs could be hired by some noble, or even the queen herself, to aid in the defense against a monstrous invasion. Whether they realize it, or not, the heroes and their allied human forces are sent into hopeless battles and suicide missions. At some point it becomes obvious that something is going really wrong and that the realm is going to lose this war. Moreover their good efforts and attempts to turn the tide are obviously ignored and even sabotaged by the queen.
The civil war against the heir could be happening in the background with the PCs believing the heir is the bad guy who wants to sabotage the queen's war against the monsters.

[Dr Bwaa]

Some good ideas here. Part of the way to make your PCs hate a villain is never to let them forget her. Don't beat them over the head with it, of course, but have signs of her malice always present. Some examples:

The captain of the watch or whatever, who has imprisoned the heir? That's not all he's doing. The queen is coming, so he recruits an extra heap of "town guards" (read: "thugs") to make his town perfect. When the PCs get to town, they find it the cleanest, quietest little town they've ever seen, except in the market, where all the vendors have identical forced smiles and talk too loudly (but do not yell, like one expects of street vendors). Soon, it becomes apparent (probably learned the hard way) that there's a strict curfew, any disobediance or uncleanliness is a punishable offence, etc. In fact, the six guards at the gate don't even let the PCs in until they have bathed satisfactorily in the nearby (or less-nearby) river.

Somebody brought up (or at least eluded to) racism. If one party member is a different race than all the others, make that race the subject of the Queen's wrath. No better way to induce fear than the knowledge that your race is arrested/killed on sight, and as we all know, Fear leads to Anger leads to Hate. Mission accomplished!

This can be harder to accomplish, but if you can get an agent of the Queen to turn one or more party members against each other (or get one so self-absorbed that he/she jeopardizes the rest of the party), that will lead to huge, very effective hatred. If this hatred is the ultimate goal, it should come out that the party was played against each other, so everyone sees it very clearly. If there's one thing PCs hate, it's being played.

Overall, just use underhanded tactics. Psychological warfare like Rhiannon mentioned; low blows; cheap tricks; the whole shebang. She shouldn't be out against the PCs specifically (not yet, anyway), but having her make decisions that radically worsen the world for the PCs as a matter of course is a great way to get them to hate her.

EDIT: Calmar's suggestion for the queen to sabotage the party's "mission to save the country" is really nice, too :smallamused:

[Thelas]

How about forcing them to kill one of their own party members (mind control, either on one or all but one)... in a way that destroys the loot?

As soon as you get that associated with her, it should be decent to good.

[Randel]

I have a copy of the 48 laws of power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_48_laws_of_power) here, it list many of the ways to get ahead and gives examples from history... however most of the ways to get power involve being a two-faced lying manipulative monster who's completely willing to shove loyal allies under a bus just to disarm your enemies enough to make them do your dirty work for you before you completely and utterly destroy them... all while looking innocent and righteous as you do it.


1. She acts completly innocent of all crimes, never gets her hands dirty, and has hired help o it for her.

The assasins who are after the heirs have no known connections to her and are probably considered enemies of the state... however, she as queen demands that the killers be imprisoned 'for questioning' rather than killed. Thus, the killers are after the heirs, the guards are after the heirs "to protect them", and if the killer gets caught then he surrenders to be taken in by the authorities (the players may see a wanted poster somewhere telling them that the rewards is much higher if the killer is brought in alive).

Thus, the players may 'save the day' and return the heir to his rightful place, capturing the killer and safely escorting the heir back. They may also run into a band of goblins who are doing something, possibly the goblins capture the heir somehow and are going to kill or ransom him off. They work (or seemingly work) completly independent of the asassin. The PCs kill the goblins and get the heir back to the queen.

There is a brief celebration, the heir is back safe and sound, queen is presantly surprised. She gets the whole party to relax and then sends in assasins to kill them and the heir.

Turns out that she plans to kill the heir while the players are there and frame them for the attack... possibly letting herself get injured in the process (ripped dress and maybe some illusion magic or something). She mocks them as the PCs are nearly killed (and most of their equipment is taken when they relaxed) but of course they manage to escape.

She then villifies the players and in fact all adventurers on the basis that they are overpowered killers who are trying to take over the kingdom. Her assasins either got killed as part of the plan, left the country with lots of money (possibly with the players expensive magic items), or got disguised and appointed as elite guards.

She plays as a poor woman who's family was killed 'by adventureres' and was nearly killed herself (she keeps the scars for a few days before they are healed up). The PCs and all other adventurers are wanted men and guards, bandits, mercinaries, and others are all looking for them or attacking them.

The goblins and monsters meanwhile stop attacking settlements, maybe the queen is 'trying to make peace' with them and it looks like its working. Thing is that they are waiting until after the fight when all the adventurers are dead, or most of the kingdoms army, militia, and armed population is dead as well.

Once everyone is weakened, the goblins come in and take over the place with the Queens help. Many crooked officials like the guard and stuff are certain that they will get favored positions in the new totalitarian regime.

Basically, all humans not on board with the Queens plan would either be killed or used as slaves. The goblins aren't attracted to humans (well, very few of them are) and they just plan to use the men to do heavy labor while the women cook and clean and stuff. However, the humans who joined the Queen would have 'first pick' of the slaves to use for their own purposes.

So, the players might run into 'human trafficking' operations. Maybe the head guard of a town has a deal with goblin raiders. The goblins make occasional attacks on the village stealing food, gold, and peasants, he looks the other way most of the time and occasionally leads his men to the goblins place and 'beats' them, bringing back stuff for himself and possibly some poor captured farmgirl for his own uses... the goblins would have just had her cook and clean and stuff, corrupt official would rape her.

Once the players find out how evil some of the officials are... and that the Queen is the one who has been putting them in charge... and the fact that for almost all intents and purposes she and her cronies are "worse" than the goblins themselves... then yeah, they might very well hate her guts.

So... general idea is that she changed the system so that corrupt officials either stay in power or can't be executed (if the players kill the corrupt bastard then they are branded as enemies of the state, if they don't then he goes free) the heir if he finds out will want to change the system but he's being targeted especially.

[dyslexicfaser]

The PCs being unable to get anyone to believe the Queen is anything but a saint would probably work. I know that would rile me.


Have her employ reoccurring villains that keep getting away. The only thing they should hate more than her are the recurring villains themselves.

That'd be kind of interesting. Sort of like Vrumagun from the Slayers anime; tracked the PCs from town to town, showing up anywhere they go until they daren't even go to the grocery store or the toilet without him springing out at them, spell-slinging. Not especially powerful, but clever and quick with his spells enough to be a threat.

If you introduce him and the players all groan and say, "That guy again?!", you're on the right track.

[FMArthur]

Whoever said "rust monsters" is right on the mark. Destroy their equipment. Rob them. Bestow some permanent level loss. The benefit of this strategy is that it gets through any mental barriers like feelings of separation from the story or numbness to clichéd "oh look this villain is bad" scenes; almost all players find more offense at an undoing of hard work than any plot device can evoke. RPG character-power growth is an addicting part of many games for a variety of reasons, and provides a happy feeling whenever your character improves. Destroying their progress makes an equal negative feeling. They can't help it.

[Dr Bwaa]

Whoever said "rust monsters" is right on the mark. Destroy their equipment. Rob them. Bestow some permanent level loss. The benefit of this strategy is that it gets through any mental barriers like feelings of separation from the story or numbness to clichéd "oh look this villain is bad" scenes; almost all players find more offense at an undoing of hard work than any plot device can evoke. RPG character-power growth is an addicting part of many games for a variety of reasons, and provides a happy feeling whenever your character improves. Destroying their progress makes an equal negative feeling. They can't help it.

But be careful. This can only work if all your players are mature enough to handle it, or else their rage ends up directed at the DM and the general experience. NOT a good time. That said, it can work if all are good enough roleplayers to move on with it.

[dyslexicfaser]

To me, destroying their equipment is definitely not the way to go.

That just gives a sense of metagame loss and frustration. They won't hate the villain, they'll hate you, and rightly so.

[AustontheGreat1]

as a player, nothing pisses me off more that the feeling of helplessness. have her do some great injustice, (like has already been suggested multiple times.) and make sure that their is nothing the players can do about it in the beginning.

or have her defeat the players very easily and make sure she laughs at their failures.

[Tyndmyr]

Some of these ideas are great...some are too far.

Make sure the villain is the hated one, not you. Things like blatantly making sure there is nothing the players can do, taking all their equipment, etc might eventually make them annoyed at you.

[FoE]

The queen eats a live puppy RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE PARTY. The party is angered because they were planning to eat that puppy.

Alternatively, you could make the players hate you, and then brag about how you much you like the queen character and how impossible it is to take her down.

[noiadodh]

3 or 4 Disjunctions at the pcs...

[Twilight Jack]

In my experience, the best way to truly invoke hatred of a villain is to forcibly turn the party's allies against them (this falls under the heading of EXTREME INJUSTICE, which has been mentioned before).

The most hated villain I ever ran blackmailed one of the party's favorite NPCs (a flamboyant Halfling swashbuckler, although this was 2e and he was merely a fighter) into betraying the party by secretly approaching said NPC and threatening to murder everyone in the village in which he had been born, unless he turned over a particular artifact which said villain had been racing to acquire against the PCs. Although the PCs weren't aware, this particular NPC had been sending the majority of the treasure he'd earned back to his hometown for the entirety of his career. In the climax of this particular arc, the PCs manage to beat the villain to the prize, only for the NPC to betray them and hand it over when the villain arrives. The villain then reveals that he slaughtered the halfling's village a week ago and teleports away.

Believe me, you can still get some of my players to spit on the ground by mentioning that villain's name.

[Randel]

Oh, one random thought here:

Have her act completly innocent and/or adorable if seemingly scatterbrained, but 'accidentally' screwing the PCs over or just making their lives horrible 'completly by mistake'.

Think King Steve from 8-Bit Theater (http://www.nuklearpower.com/8-bit-theater/) or Qui-Gon from Darths and Droids (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/).

She asks the PCs to do some task for her, possibly one of the many parts of her big master plan, and says it all matter of factly and cutely (for some weird reason I'm imagining an anime character, like one in a maid costume. One of those who seems oblivious to whats going on but somehow manages to cause all sorts of problems for people and doesn't even know it) she may mention that there are 'a few' bandits out there when in fact its hugely fortified and in the middle of a jungle. Or she asks them to retrieve some item only for them to find that its a huge statue that weighs several tons.

Some fundamental 'flaw' in her instructions results in bad things happening to the PCs or alot of trouble for them (she didn't give them money to pay for the bridge toll, for example) and she promises to give them a great reward, but when they come back they find that its a really crummy reward.

Like:

She asks them to bring a magic item worth several million gp and rewards them with a few hundred once they bring it to her.

She promises that when they finish the task they will be remembered as heros for generations. Then they find that she erected a 'Heroes Bridge' leading to some monster infested area (possibly in such a way that it would have been awesome to have when they started) and their names are inscribed on the bridge... on the bottom... misspelled... and with a memorial in a more accessible area listing all the other people who died heroically... even though most of those are rich nobles who are still very much alive (and donated so much money towards making the bridge... which they themselves taxed from the players best NPC friends).

She gives them some traveling money to go to the place and spend all of it on various tolls, directions, river crossings and such. They have to spend their own money getting back. Then when they collect their reward it includes a Royal Charge... which basically gets them discounts on tolls and traveling and stuff... which never becomes a problem again.

Or she starts signing them up for stuff without their knowledge. Like declaring them to be the champions of the kingdom which basically means that challengers from other kingdoms show up at random and challenge them to duels... which if they refuse damages their reputation.

Or she has them go on some mission somewhere that turns out to be mostly a waste of time (it wasn't that much of a challenge) but in doing so they weren't around to save their favorite village from being attacked and looted by raiders.

She also doesn't answer questions with any degree of satisfaction or accuracy (she does this to manipulate people and obfuscate stupidity so that her opponents underestimate her) and often says that "X knows more about it than I do." when X is either unavailable, unhelpful, or dead (possibly because the PCs killed him for being a treacherous maniac earlier, or because the PCs failed to save him from something).

Oh, and she sometimes 'forgets' things like what their verbally agreed on reward would be, or if one of the PCs dies during their mission to the Tomb of Horrors that she sent them on kill some bad guy (possibly a good guy who was cursed with something... and they are tasked to retrieve the cursed item that turned him). Once they return she 'forgets' that she sent them on that mission and so do all her advisers and pretty much everyone else since it turns out he wasn't even bothering anyone... and since the guy is dead there's no real reason she 'needs' to reward them. They end of pawning off the cursed item for peanuts and later find that its used to kill someone else.

And of course, she does it in such a way that if they complain then it makes them sound like jerks.

Once the PCs figure out that she was in fact doing it all full knowing how much her 'mistakes' were slowly ruining their lives then they will hate her more than ever.

[Crow]

Thank you guys for all the great suggestions.

I ended up making the guard captain a sympathetic character. His wife had passed away and he was living with his little daughter. The only reason he had imprisoned the heir was to not provioke the Queen's wrath, which he feared she would take out on the city and it's people. He agreed to help the players, and even allowed them and the heir to lay low at his residence until the heat died down after they alerted the guards while rescuing the heir. The big moment came after he sent his little girl up the street to get some spiced apples for their "guests". A short while later soldiers showed up at the door, with a man who would from then be known as one of the Queen's henchmen. They had the captian step outside with them, and informed him that the Queen was relieving him of command for his failure to secure the heir. The captain asked why he had brought so many men, and the henchman revealed the captain's 5 year old daughter. He then proceeds to give the whole "Queen will not tolerate failure" speech, and cuts the girl's throat as she cries for her daddy. The captain goes into a rage, and ends up being cut down. All of this while the players are watching from a vent in the captain's cellar, unable to intervene without risking the heir's life.

To add insult to injury, he orders the soldiers to string up the bodies of the captain and his daughter in the square as an example to others.

The players were all dead silent, staring in shocked amazement, before one of them piped in "We better get out of here."