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View Full Version : What one effect/thing has been your bane in D&D?



paddyfool
2010-01-06, 08:15 AM
For me, it's mind-affecting stuff. It killed my first two characters, without them ever succumbing.

My first character death: Poorly built arcane spellcaster (you don't need the details); started at high level and was still figuring things out. Party dwarf fighter/barbarian somehow becomes both Confused and Dominated at about the same time. I slap a Hold Person on him, and am tempted to stick a Resilient Sphere around him as well, but other players beg me not to. Next round he shrugs off the Hold Person and bisects me.

My second character death: Paladin of Freedom. Giant bug-faced thing turns up (Umber Hulk); entire party of 6 bar me and the wizard fail their will saves despite +4 bonuses. Naturally, I charge, and the Hulk shreds me before the cowardly wizard's familiar arrives to delivery the killing Shock.

Raging Gene Ray
2010-01-06, 08:18 AM
Sounds like trusting your fellow party members to NOT screw things up for you is your bane, not mind-affecting stuff.

Longcat
2010-01-06, 08:18 AM
The "Instant Death" optional rule from the DMG. Basically, whenever someone threatens on a Nat 20, followed by another Nat 20 on an attack roll, and confirms it, the target dies instantly unless they're immune to critical hits.

Guess that explains why I'm currently playing a Necropolitan.

JediSoth
2010-01-06, 08:22 AM
The Orb spells in 3.5. Ranged touch attack, no save. Against anything big (i.e. low touch AC), it's like an automatic damage button.

I have a problem with a green dragon the size of a small house getting killed in two rounds from a scrawny elf sorcerer making average to-hit rolls. It should be a semi-epic climatic battle, not a *yawn* ho-hum *blast blast* *loot loot*.

paddyfool
2010-01-06, 08:23 AM
Sounds like trusting your fellow party members to NOT screw things up for you is your bane, not mind-affecting stuff.

"Your overconfidence is your weakness."
"Your faith in your friends is yours."

The_Pyre
2010-01-06, 08:26 AM
I think it goes for both 3.5 and 4E that stun is very, very annoying. It hasn't caused any character deaths yet, but there's nothing more annoying than skipping your turn while your opponent continues to hack at you.

paddyfool
2010-01-06, 08:26 AM
The Orb spells in 3.5. Ranged touch attack, no save. Against anything big (i.e. low touch AC), it's like an automatic damage button.

I have a problem with a green dragon the size of a small house getting killed in two rounds from a scrawny elf sorcerer making average to-hit rolls. It should be a semi-epic climatic battle, not a *yawn* ho-hum *blast blast* *loot loot*.

Are you familiar with Scintillating Scales? It's a level 1 buff which sorta closes this gaping hold in a dragon's defences...

Saph
2010-01-06, 08:29 AM
3.5: Stun/paralyse/unconscious effects. Failing a save and being knocked out of the battle is intensely annoying. On the plus side, there are ways to counter it.

4e: Low dice rolls. Due to the way 4e combat works, if you happen to hit a run of poor attack rolls, you're useless, and there's really nothing you can do about it except hope the odds turn in your favour.

Totally Guy
2010-01-06, 08:35 AM
Locked Doors...

I hate locked doors. I like my dice rolls to matter. I hate it when I'm expected keep rolling until I succeed.

So whenever I can't get through a door. I do something completely different. A couple of times this has killed me. But I stand by the principle.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-06, 08:37 AM
My little brother. The details of it are lost to Gleemax forever, but the jist of it is that he's able to screw up any character I build for him (and anyone who knows me will tell you this should not happen). He's screwed up a Warblade Chain Tripper build, for starters.

The other would be my previous DM (the one reponsible for adding Snake Napalm to my vocabulary). That one deserves a post of its own though.

Smythen
2010-01-06, 08:40 AM
Playing!

I have a tendency to believe that all GMs think like me, and award heroic actions... Most of my friends that GM thinks that heroic actions are reckless and thereby foolish.

Best one yet (though my char got ressed).
Paladin char, throws his rope (that attaches itself to anything) at the back of the bbeg bluedragon, climbs to the back of it and starts chopping at its neck with his +5 holy avenger bastard sword. (in flight riding my drake, how cool is that).
Dragon/GM reaction breathe lightning each round until i die....

Serpentine
2010-01-06, 08:49 AM
Mine are both rolls. For one character in particular, Survival checks to not get lost. Maxed out Survival, did fine finding food or whatever. But when it comes to finding her way or tracking... Forgeddabowdit!
The other is just really inconvenient attack rolls. High (especially crits) when I want low (e.g. to prevent character death), and miserable when I want high (e.g. an encounter has gone on for far too long, and most of the enemy's hit points are gone).

@^ Unless it couldn't breathe fire that often (probable, unless he just got lucky on the rolls), if that's what the dragon would do, then I think it's reasonable for it to do that...
I had an unfortunate situation when fighting a dragon, once, where an invisible catfolk Beguiler climbed on the back of the dragon to do his damage of some sort (cool and heroic), and also took damage from the dragon trying to whack him off. Another character (Witch) cast Call Lightning on it (pretty impressive-looking, at least)... but couldn't see the kitty, what with him being invisible and all. I think I said that if the dragon made its Reflex save he'd be okay, or something like that. It didn't. He toasted. He was actually, from memory, just on negative hit points... but being invisible, noone knew where he was, much less that he needed help :smallsigh: I was worried, at the time, that they'd think much the same as you: that I was picking on that character/player. Particularly as the dragon fight was on the way to resurrect the same player's other character...

IonDragon
2010-01-06, 08:51 AM
Poison. Especially save or die. It's the only thing aside from pure and simple bad luck that's ever killed my characters. Which is really funny because I usually play Sorcs...

Aharon
2010-01-06, 08:51 AM
@Smythen
That must have been a very lucky dragon, as you can only use your breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds, 1d4-1 with a feat from Draconomicon the name of which escapes me.

Effect:
Stun et al. It's the one my players complain most about, so much that the DMPC has to use Resurgence very often...

Rhiannon87
2010-01-06, 08:57 AM
Currently, I have loathing for paralysis. Three party members got offed by ghasts due to paralysis. 15,000 gp worth of diamonds evaporated in one combat which the DM informed us with a look of mixed shock and horror, "The fort save DC for that was so low I didn't think anyone would fail!".

Two 12th-level fighter-types with fort saves of +15 or greater got killed by ghasts because they were paralyzed and then failed the saves against the subsequent coup de grace. IT HAPPENED LIKE A MONTH AGO AND I AM STILL GOING WTF DICE, WTF.

JediSoth
2010-01-06, 09:10 AM
Are you familiar with Scintillating Scales? It's a level 1 buff which sorta closes this gaping hold in a dragon's defences...

I'm not familiar with that one. Which book is it in?

Of course, since I'm switching to Pathfinder from 3.X, it's likely I won't have the orb problem anymore.

Optimystik
2010-01-06, 09:16 AM
Ability damage/drain. This is why I hate undead, especially the ones with turn resistance. So many of them are under-CR'ed for this very reason.

Mongoose87
2010-01-06, 09:17 AM
I had a Wizard with the nasty tendency to roll between 2-4 on his Will saves. It's hard to play "God" when you're rolling on the floor, thanks to Tasha's Hideous Laughter.

Kol Korran
2010-01-06, 10:49 AM
as a player? (i'm fairly new to that) my bane is any dice rolls. i roll 2 at about 40% of the time. it has become a running joke with my group about 20% of my rolls are above 10. i'm playing a cleric so i try to mostly cast buffs, divinations and so on... the party has been disappointed by my cure spells. thank the gods for Lesser vigor wands!

as a DM? i had several banes:
1) min maxing powergamers- i just don't know how to plan well for those guys, without diverting the attention of the game from the other players. sure, i know talking helps, but only some times.
2) in two groups i had a player kept forgetting everything, including game rules, and derailing the game or interupting it's pace. i've tried to work with these players (as i have with other newbies), but these two just had to go at the end.
3) myslef. most times it doesn't happen, but a few tiems i got caught with my own "plans" for how things should go. thankfully i caught myself in time, but those were awekward, and not fun moments.

Xenogears
2010-01-06, 10:54 AM
I'm not familiar with that one. Which book is it in?

Of course, since I'm switching to Pathfinder from 3.X, it's likely I won't have the orb problem anymore.

IIRC it turns their natural armor into a deflection bonus. That makes it work on touch attacks. I might be wrong about the details but thats the gist of it.

The Rose Dragon
2010-01-06, 10:57 AM
WotC.

After WotC, probably cats. Not because they can kill me or anything, because they have a tendency to somehow ruin every Hide in Shadows and Move Silently check I make.

"I rolled a 1!"

"Sorry, the cat made too much noise and they are alerted to your presence anyway."

"Damn you, you feline beast!"

Xenogears
2010-01-06, 11:07 AM
WotC.

After WotC, probably cats. Not because they can kill me or anything, because they have a tendency to somehow ruin every Hide in Shadows and Move Silently check I make.

"I rolled a 1!"

"Sorry, the cat made too much noise and they are alerted to your presence anyway."

"Damn you, you feline beast!"

Least they don't eat your character sheets....

bosssmiley
2010-01-06, 11:08 AM
Illusions. They're a nightmare to adjudicate, and screw with your ability to react to the environment rationally. Used right they are the worst nightmare of everyone at the table.

They also bring in the whole "it was all a dream" trope in all its' suckyness.

Zaydos
2010-01-06, 11:11 AM
Least they don't eat your character sheets....

Or minis... cats love to attack miniatures.

Signmaker
2010-01-06, 11:12 AM
Dispels. I'm fairly competent with AC and save-boosting tricks, but it takes a lot of expensive stuff to become fairly dispel-resistant.

Cuaqchi
2010-01-06, 11:24 AM
Poison. Especially save or die. It's the only thing aside from pure and simple bad luck that's ever killed my characters. Which is really funny because I usually play Sorcs...

Seconded. I have only ever lost characters to poison or disease.

The worst was in 2nd Ed when my Ranger began hewing through a wyvern, doing enough damage in one round to bring the creature to 1 HP. Then with its counterattack the only hit was the tail that did a grand total of 1 HP forcing me to make a save against poison that I botched...

oxybe
2010-01-06, 11:27 AM
SPIIIIIIIDERRRRRRRRRS... grrrrr... mumble mumble mumble... i swear i had more characters die due to spider-related incidents then any other type or subtype of monster.

that and Save or Die/Suck/Sit out the encounter or game type effects. those type of effects that don't give you a chance to react and instead forces you to come with a bunch of proactive buffs/scrolls/consumeables in case it arises are a pain. at least 4th ed goes with 3 strikes scenario for a lot of them (it slowly becomes worse as you fail the save until the 3rd one does the final blow), like the medusa's petrification.

Zeta Kai
2010-01-06, 11:28 AM
As a player & as a DM, I hate grappling. The rules are just a mess in 3E. How is it done? How is it maintained? What can you do? What can the other guy do? What can other people do? I understand it, but getting everyone to agree on how the mechanics operate is not really worth it. My groups have a tacit agreement to never grapple anything. You don't grab me, I won't grab you, & the game can just go on real smooth-like.

Lysander
2010-01-06, 11:33 AM
Trying to be a diplomat. I'm naturally attracted to skill-monkey characters with lots of languages, high charisma, and maxed out diplomacy/bluff/sense motive. Whenever I want to negotiate peace or make new allies the optimized barbarian players charge into battle. Then while spines are being hacked and heads fly through the air my less than ideal for melee character stands around being mostly useless.

Asheram
2010-01-06, 11:36 AM
As a player & as a DM, I hate grappling. The rules are just a mess in 3E. How is it done? How is it maintained? What can you do? What can the other guy do? What can other people do? I understand it, but getting everyone to agree on how the mechanics operate is not really worth it. My groups have a tacit agreement to never grapple anything. You don't grab me, I won't grab you, & the game can just go on real smooth-like.

Best way to fix this? Get the most truthful guy in the party to play a wildshape druid. Then you Know he'll learn all about it, then if there's an argument, refer to him.

mikej
2010-01-06, 11:40 AM
WoTC

Joking aside, I'd say melee in general. When the situation calls for me to make any melee ( including ranged ) attack, I always roll horribly low, or worse a natural 1. Over my years playing D&D I think I can count on my fingers the amount of times I rolled a natural 20 in melee. Saves, Skills, Ability Checks, all good. That's one of many reasons I stick primary with casters. If I do melee, mainly Druid, I tend to wildshape+buff myself until I could hit even with a low roll.

Fishy
2010-01-06, 11:44 AM
Pretty much anything [Mind Affecting], to be honest. Panicking for 4 rounds while everyone else is doing neat things is a pain. And "Suddenly, you realize how cool Bob is, and completely agree with his opinions" can rub me the wrong way sometimes.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-06, 11:48 AM
D20s. God, I hate those unruly little jerks. Apparently, they hate me too.

subject42
2010-01-06, 11:48 AM
As a player, my bane has been DMs that put a +yes modifer on NPC rolls for social situations. It's quite annoying when your 10th level character getting a 39 on his intimidate check isn't enough to get the random hired thug to tell where he was offered the job, much less what the guy offering the job looked like.

As a DM, my bane has been players using Enchantment spells to solve every problem in low level campaigns. I don't really want to play an undead/construct only campaign, but it does get out of hand after a while.

ericgrau
2010-01-06, 12:10 PM
Lately it's been playing a trip monkey in a campaign with almost zero humanoids. Whoops. Fortunately he has other tricks... most of which seem to be likewise negated by the weirdness of the world.


Are you familiar with Scintillating Scales? It's a level 1 buff which sorta closes this gaping hold in a dragon's defences...
For dragons, but not all the other big creatures. And it makes his touch AC crazy high against all other ranged touch spells, which royally gimps those spells. Fighting nukes with nukes is fine if your group must have nukes, but it's much easier to ban the no save, no SR, wtf-it's-conjuration-damage spells. Don't forget shivering touch while you're at it. It's not like you're being crazy strict or mean either; it's only a couple things which are well known to be problematic.


Locked Doors...

...somehow ruin every Hide in Shadows and Move Silently check I make.
Taking 10's and 20's is your friend.


paralysis, confusion, dominate, poison
Yeah, DMs tend to underestimate the save DCs and beef the money/stats of the baddies too much. There are various ways to resist or become immune though. Or if your DM feels like it's only natural for half the monsters to be casters who immediately target the will saves of melee, play a fighter with a holy symbol or a cleric who hides his. Then if your DM tries to pull that again in round one, ask him why the monster would do that.

dsmiles
2010-01-06, 12:23 PM
Quivering Palm.

As a DM, I lost 3 BBEGs in a row to a Halfling Monk. Unlucky rolls didn't help any, though.

jokey665
2010-01-06, 12:34 PM
Ghasts. If there is a ghast anywhere near me, my character is probably dead.

The Rose Dragon
2010-01-06, 12:36 PM
Taking 10's and 20's is your friend.

I rolled a 1. Why would I need a 20?

((Though it could be nice if you have Move Silently and Hide in Shadows higher than 20%.))

Tyrmatt
2010-01-06, 12:38 PM
Elves.

No matter what spell I cast, no matter how I approach it, they screw me over. I collapsed a mine shaft on my own party thanks to an elf :/

oxybe
2010-01-06, 12:38 PM
Taking 10's and 20's is your friend.



for picking locks, searching an area & such, i wholeheartedly agree to put 2 minutes aside and take 20 if possible.

as for hide & move silently, i'm pretty sure you aren't really allow take 10/20 by the rules, since you're most likely to doing it in a stressful situation where there are threats and distractions (like guards/sentries).

ericgrau
2010-01-06, 12:39 PM
^ You can take a 10 as long as you are not threatened or distracted, which you are not. The only times you are you can't hide anyway, because you are being observed. Taking 10's is practically made for stealth.


I rolled a 1. Why would I need a 20?

((Though it could be nice if you have Move Silently and Hide in Shadows higher than 20%.))
Check out the skill rules. You can take a 10 instead of rolling as long as you are not threatened or distracted. Usually that means "not in combat". If a poor roll has no negative consequences, you can essentially retry 20 times without rolling to get a roll of 20. Naturally this takes 20 times as long as normal.

Tar Palantir
2010-01-06, 12:39 PM
I'm remarkably lucky on both sides of the screen, but one of my players in my last campaign developed a mortal fear of worgs. He was killed twice by packs of CR 2 worgs, once at level 6 and once at level 9. Without fail, he gets separated from the group and trip-locked until dead (it doesn't help that he's never played a character with a Con bonus in any of my campaigns). The second time, the party would barely have gotten XP from the fight; I just wanted to give him a chance for revenge on those damn wolves. Didn't turn out so hot for him :smallsigh:.

Curmudgeon
2010-01-06, 12:41 PM
As a DM: Polymorph, and all its associated grief.

As a player: playing a nonflying ranged combatant. There seems to always be really high DR, or Wind Wall, or something else to just make the character's actions largely irrelevant in combat.

The Rose Dragon
2010-01-06, 12:42 PM
You can take a 10 as long as you are not threatened or distracted, which you are not. The only times you are you can't hide anyway, because you are being observed. Taking 10's is practically made for stealth.

Hear that? That is the point flying right over your head. :smalltongue:

((2nd Edition. Not 3rd. In 2nd Edition, rolling a 1, on a percentile die, while determining thief skill uses, is a very good thing. And there is no taking 10 or 20.))

ericgrau
2010-01-06, 12:44 PM
Oh, 2e. Sucks to be you!

Better tip: When playing in a cruel system or with a cruel DM, simply don't play the Hated Things. You are doomed no matter what. 2e thiefs are good only for finding traps half the time and dying to them the other half. Find alternate methods to deal with traps like poles, henchmen, weights, etc.

arguskos
2010-01-06, 12:45 PM
Players.

No, really, my player's have been my bane. Not because they jack up my plans (I don't plan much anymore), but because they took the old axiom of "Measure twice, cut once" to it's logical extreme "measure x times, cut once, where x is how many hours are in the session". :smallannoyed: What I wouldn't give for a group that just DID stuff.

Gamerlord
2010-01-06, 12:46 PM
As a player & as a DM, I hate grappling. The rules are just a mess in 3E. How is it done? How is it maintained? What can you do? What can the other guy do? What can other people do? I understand it, but getting everyone to agree on how the mechanics operate is not really worth it. My groups have a tacit agreement to never grapple anything. You don't grab me, I won't grab you, & the game can just go on real smooth-like.
I once had a tiny snake succeed a grapple against one of my player's fighter, and maintain it for quite a few turns.

My players hate gnomes, as I have made sure they can never trust gnomes.

Curmudgeon
2010-01-06, 12:47 PM
Hear that? That is the point flying right over your head. :smalltongue:
Ah, the joys of opposed checks. You can't Hide if there's nobody who could Spot you. And once they're there, you can't "take 10" on your Hide check -- except for Rogues with Skill Mastery. :smallsmile: (Gotta love those exceptions to exceptions.)

dsmiles
2010-01-06, 12:54 PM
Ah, the joys of opposed checks. You can't Hide if there's nobody who could Spot you.

Sure you can...

"I hide from the darkness"

oxybe
2010-01-06, 01:02 PM
((2nd Edition. Not 3rd. In 2nd Edition, rolling a 1, on a percentile die, while determining thief skill uses, is a very good thing. And there is no taking 10 or 20.))

ah. my bad.

i keep forgetting that i should dust out my older books every now and then since people still play with them. most of the time when i see 20% on a skill check i'm thinking 1-4 on a d20.

Eldariel
2010-01-06, 01:03 PM
Forcecage. 'cause I made the mistake of playing a non-caster in a high-level game once (in a game without magimart, no less). Other than that, fcking LICHES. I don't think I've yet to win a single encounter with one on tabletop. Them being Wizards doesn't help.

Optimystik
2010-01-06, 01:03 PM
ah. my bad.

i keep forgetting that i should dust out my older books every now and then since people still play with them. most of the time when i see 20% on a skill check i'm thinking 1-4 on a d20.

Well in fairness to you, if 2e isn't specified then you didn't err in assuming 3.x. That's what most people do here.

Choco
2010-01-06, 01:03 PM
Players.

No, really, my player's have been my bane. Not because they jack up my plans (I don't plan much anymore), but because they took the old axiom of "Measure twice, cut once" to it's logical extreme "measure x times, cut once, where x is how many hours are in the session". :smallannoyed: What I wouldn't give for a group that just DID stuff.

Wow, are you my DM?

I am playing with a group of people that likes to do this, even DURING COMBAT.

Anyway, my bane in D&D is people who make the most rediculously stupid arguments to be able to munchkin something. Like arguing that more than 1 of (insert item here) could be affected with one casting of a spell that affects "object touched" because 1) it doesn't specifically say only 1 object and 2) starting a side argument/discussion over how objects made of multiple connected objects would be affected by the spell, even though while this side discussion has some grey area, 2 SEPERATE, NOT CONNECTED IN ANY WAY items can not be counted as the same object...

The Rose Dragon
2010-01-06, 01:06 PM
ah. my bad.

i keep forgetting that i should dust out my older books every now and then since people still play with them. most of the time when i see 20% on a skill check i'm thinking 1-4 on a d20.

Hah! You and your new streamlined skill systems. In our days, only rangers and thiefs could move silently and hide in shadows. We also had bards, but they were a pain to play due to their high requisite stats.

@Opti: He did err in assuming 3rd Edition when I said "Hide in Shadows", not "Hide".

Xzeno
2010-01-06, 01:21 PM
AS a DM: My players doing sane things. Crazy stuff, I can deal with. But "We contact the proper authorities." How do I fight that type of cunning?

As a player: My DM has a method of checking whether or not my character is OP: Imagine a character of the same class with the worse build possible. If Xzeno's character is better, it needs nerfing... except full casters. They stay as they are. Because non-casters shouldn't get nice things.

Dienekes
2010-01-06, 01:26 PM
Druids.

My party is one of the most unoptimized rabble you've ever seen, with a firm tendency to play the classes as intended. Even then druids are still bloody head and shoulder's above the rest

arguskos
2010-01-06, 01:37 PM
Wow, are you my DM?

I am playing with a group of people that likes to do this, even DURING COMBAT.

Anyway, my bane in D&D is people who make the most rediculously stupid arguments to be able to munchkin something. Like arguing that more than 1 of (insert item here) could be affected with one casting of a spell that affects "object touched" because 1) it doesn't specifically say only 1 object and 2) starting a side argument/discussion over how objects made of multiple connected objects would be affected by the spell, even though while this side discussion has some grey area, 2 SEPERATE, NOT CONNECTED IN ANY WAY items can not be counted as the same object...
Unless you played on Saturday's at UTD campus in Dallas, TX, no, I really doubt it. :smalltongue:

Happily, I no longer play that group, since I've moved to another state now. Still, the memories will haunt me I think. They're great folks, just... sometimes, the discussions duke, the discussions. >_<

Pyro_Azer
2010-01-06, 01:45 PM
Rats. Normal rats right out of the monster manual. I can attribute 2 deaths to them so far.

Choco
2010-01-06, 01:50 PM
Tripping attempts.

I am notorious for never succeeding in a trip attempt as a player, and I have been playing since 3.0 came out.

Rhiannon87
2010-01-06, 01:56 PM
As a player & as a DM, I hate grappling. The rules are just a mess in 3E. How is it done? How is it maintained? What can you do? What can the other guy do? What can other people do? I understand it, but getting everyone to agree on how the mechanics operate is not really worth it. My groups have a tacit agreement to never grapple anything. You don't grab me, I won't grab you, & the game can just go on real smooth-like.

I just... I don't understand this predominant attitude in the D&D community. At all. Grappling is complicated only insofar as there are many options as to what you can do once you are grappling. Turning undead is a more obnoxious beast-- you can't do it without consulting a chart. My group is one that has had some problems with rules before, and we've never had much issue with grappling. Saying that grappling is overly complicated and no one understands it, to me, seems like saying that wizards are overly complicated and no one can understand it because they have too many options.

[/confused rant]

arguskos
2010-01-06, 02:01 PM
You know, I think the grapple hate comes from the fact that it's a lot of rolls, and is easy to jack up. It's also poorly worded, since it's somewhat unclear when each combatant makes their checks. Attackers turn? Defenders turn? Both? Neither? Init count -5? (that last one was a joke)

When I AM a player, my bane is spellcasting. Most of my DMs have believed that spellcasters should be nerfed into the ground, and proceeded to throw lots of arbitrary rules at me so I couldn't do anything. :smallannoyed:

I also have bad luck when it comes to rolls. I tend to roll poorly for like everything, though, crits are fairly frequent. It's bad when I have multiple dice named the Player Killers.

oxybe
2010-01-06, 02:02 PM
I just... I don't understand this predominant attitude in the D&D community. At all. Grappling is complicated only insofar as there are many options as to what you can do once you are grappling. Turning undead is a more obnoxious beast-- you can't do it without consulting a chart. My group is one that has had some problems with rules before, and we've never had much issue with grappling. Saying that grappling is overly complicated and no one understands it, to me, seems like saying that wizards are overly complicated and no one can understand it because they have too many options.

[/confused rant]

because while the opposed check part isn't hard, there are a few annoying conditions that may or may not apply depending on the action you are trying to take.

if a girallon is trying to grapple 2 medium creatures with one hand each and a third medium creature with 2 hands, what are the modifiers for doing so?

subject42
2010-01-06, 02:04 PM
I just... I don't understand this predominant attitude in the D&D community. At all. Grappling is complicated only insofar as there are many options as to what you can do once you are grappling.

For me, at least, the problem is when multiple people get involved in the grapple scenario. Attacks of opportunity get kinda weird. My personal nightmare scenario was when we had two characters grappling, one person with a pole arm 10 feet away with combat reflexes, a ranged fighter, a melee fighter, and another character trying to break up the grapple.

Beelzebub1111
2010-01-06, 02:05 PM
A bane to me from my perspective as a player? Level Draining. I never make my fort save the next day...NEVER.

A bane from my perspective as a DM? 4x crit weapons. Nothing ruins a recurring villain more than a 4x critical hit.

Zaydos
2010-01-06, 02:07 PM
It doesn't have improved grab so it chooses one opponent to make a grapple check against and grapples it normally. If it was trying to escape the grapple it has to beat all 3 of them although they don't add their rolls together.

Edit: Double ninja'd. My actual method of dealing with grappling right now is screw it I cast Evard's Black Tentacles... something seems counterproductive about this but I don't know why.

Thorcrest
2010-01-06, 02:20 PM
As a player: DMs that give us a small army and make us fight a horde of monsters that outnumber them like 100 to 1 because we are high levels!

As a DM: Players that complain when I throw huge armies at them... Just Kidding

Really its when players take four hours to clear the first two rooms of a dungeon that only had two enemies and 1 trap. FOUR HOURS! IN A DUNGEON THAT SHOULD HAVE TAKEN FOUR HOURS TO COMPLETE!

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-06, 02:21 PM
Undeads.... urg how I hate them, I love to play rogues and for my first ever campain my DM just throwed undead at us, I don't even recall making a succesful sneak attack in that campaing.

That was before I knew about Dungeonscape.... but god how I hated that campaing.

valadil
2010-01-06, 02:33 PM
d20s. I've had a few game sessions where I've rolled more 2s than everything else combined. Seriously. They don't like me. My d4s roll higher.

Hunter Noventa
2010-01-06, 02:44 PM
As a player & as a DM, I hate grappling. The rules are just a mess in 3E. How is it done? How is it maintained? What can you do? What can the other guy do? What can other people do? I understand it, but getting everyone to agree on how the mechanics operate is not really worth it. My groups have a tacit agreement to never grapple anything. You don't grab me, I won't grab you, & the game can just go on real smooth-like.

I, as a player never grapple. But my DM has been known to use monsters that do. With improved grab. And about a +30ish grapple modifier. It frustrates me to no end that there's no way to counter somethign like that and be useful for anything but grappling.

Lioness
2010-01-06, 02:46 PM
As a player - I don't actually know. I guess, it's annoying when my dice roll badly, but it doesn't happen that often.

As a DM (all of one session) - my dice. They have something against me DMing, I swear. Dice that usually roll rather high rolled 1s, 2, and generally nothing over 13. If I was lucky they gave me an 18
For a roll that I thought I needed a 19

(Player told me save DC was 19, and then later said 'Oh, Uh. I made a mistake...it was meant to be 18.)
Yeah, that was about 4 rounds my monsters spent unable to do something because your spell was still in effect...unhappy.

Spellcasters who don't prepare their spells before the session (I'm guilty of this as a player). Who then prepare them quickly. Who then spend their turn looking up what each spell does before casting it. Why prepare it if you don't know what it does!?

Err, apart from that, nothing much. The guy who normally DMs is a really annoying player, but I figure I can work with that and be just as evil back.

jokey665
2010-01-06, 02:52 PM
I, as a player never grapple. But my DM has been known to use monsters that do. With improved grab. And about a +30ish grapple modifier. It frustrates me to no end that there's no way to counter somethign like that and be useful for anything but grappling.

One of my players played a Goliath Psychic Warrior who semi-specialized in grappling, and he could out-grapple just about anything I sent him that was anywhere near an appropriate CR, even the most grapple-centric monsters. Even when he wasn't grappling he was usually 2- or 3-shotting most monsters.

FMArthur
2010-01-06, 03:02 PM
A single stupid player. He knows enough of the rules to play and I'm fine with reminding him of the rules he forgets from time to time... but he drags his party down pretty hard no matter what he does. Someone in this thread said that a Druid is still good in the hands of a bad player. I would love to DM for your bad players. This guy can't choose or take care of an animal companion. He doesn't know if a spell is useful or not when he chooses it. He rarely wildshapes and only wastes enormous amounts of time when he does. His primary combat tactic is to bonk enemies with his crude club. And he's not the only useless druid player I've seen.

On the other hand, he roleplays a chaotic-evil half-orc barbarian exceptionally well, to the collective joy of the mostly-good, diplomacy-centric party.

unre9istered
2010-01-06, 03:24 PM
A single stupid player...

This. The last game I ran had a player who wanted to play a chaotic stupid bard who was trying to act like a druid (with a druid in the party no less). The first thing he did in game was kill a civilian who was running away from monsters that popped out of the ground because the civilian "wasn't helping". That character left the party after being attacked by the other party members. He refused to allow them to disarm (strip the armor from that is) the goblin chief they had captured because he wanted to be friends with it (after the chief had attacked him several times during his diplomatic overtures). For his new character I told him to try to think of a normal dnd situation in which his new character would do something to make the party hate him or where a normal parties reactions would turn him against them, if he could then he needed to come up with a new character.

His character in the game we're starting now (which I'm not running, thank god) sounds like a stupid good pacifist. We haven't actually ran yet so he might roleplay the character to be less annoying than it could be but I have little faith that this will be the case. Please note, when he came up with the idea he knew that two of the other players were making a rogue going for assassin and a CN barbarian/fighter who grapples with spiked armor.

Skull if you're reading this I hope you don't take too much offense.

Stompy
2010-01-06, 03:41 PM
Really bad rolls (like a natural 2) vs. save or die stuff.

-DM consolidated a 12-headed cryo breath weapon into one reflex save. I rolled a 2. The action point I spent trying to raise that was a 2. My level 9 sorc took 134 HP of cold damage, before he got a turn in initiative order. He was also forced into the room with the cryohydra.

-Was meleeing a crystalline ooze thing when it exploded, rolled a 7 on a reflex save to dodge flying ooze shards. That failed, he took ooze shrapnel, and then proceded to roll a 2 on a fort save. That cleric/crusader/RKV died of system shock.

-Rolled low vs. symbol of death, one that was triggered by another party member's stupid curiosity.

Note that I had good saves on all of these characters.

Thurbane
2010-01-06, 03:52 PM
Will saves. Just can't seem to make them, even when I'm playing a character with a good base Will save (my last two characters have been Wizard and Dragon Shaman). Unless you pump a ridiculous amount of feats and/or items into it, your will is always going to be iffy against appropriately CR foes. And failing a will save usually means "game over" or at least "fight over". Even a humble Charm Person, Sleep or Color Spray can end the fight (sometimes before it's even begun).

Next time I play an evil PC, I'm going to take the Willing Deformity and Deformity (Madness) feats to get immunity to mind affecting abilities and spells. :smallmad:

JediSoth
2010-01-06, 04:24 PM
...
For dragons, but not all the other big creatures. And it makes his touch AC crazy high against all other ranged touch spells, which royally gimps those spells. Fighting nukes with nukes is fine if your group must have nukes, but it's much easier to ban the no save, no SR, wtf-it's-conjuration-damage spells. Don't forget shivering touch while you're at it. It's not like you're being crazy strict or mean either; it's only a couple things which are well known to be problematic.
...

I talked about banning those spells. The player in question's argument for the Orb spells was "What are you talking about unbalanced? They're AWESOME!"

I have since learned to be VERY wary of anything he says is "awesome."

Since purchasing Fiery Dragon's Battleboxes, I never had problems with grapple, though I do wish they'd included a handy-dandy Turn Undead reference, 'cause I was always looking that up when the people playing the clerics bothered to show up to the games.

Shyftir
2010-01-06, 04:56 PM
When I deal with Turn Undead, I just tell my players to roll some dice then decide what I think should happen dependent on if they roll worth crap. Oddly enough the guy playing the cleric asked me later what my alternate turn undead system was, he apparently thought there was some kind of logic behind it. He looked really dissapointed when I told him I made it up on the fly.

My bane:
Mindflayers: I tend to play melee characters, I've spent HOURS under psionic blast.

Story: I had a DM who was going for "epic" battle and his method was to give everybody a second character made by him that was high level and half-celestial. This wouldn't be such a bad thing but we had 8 players in the party. So we were running two separate combats with 8 players and multiple enemies in both. My real character and another of our core melee characters got hit with a mind blast, and then the DM rolled a maximum duration roll on the blast, so I sat for several hours not getting to play my actual character and not liking my extra. Needless to say we got a new DM.

sofawall
2010-01-06, 05:14 PM
Jumping and/or water. If I jump, I tend to end up in a bad situation. If there is water, either something is in it to try and attack me from it, often at range (If I can swim) or I will end up in it myself (if I cannot).

As for grapple checks, I'm always the one on the the BAB/STR/Size end of the equation.

Deepblue706
2010-01-06, 07:43 PM
For me, just overwhelming damage. Not Massive Damage rules, not Critical Hits (although I suffer many). I mean getting attacked by everything, and it always dealing damage. Fireballs, Arrows and Swords have eliminated more of my characters than anything else. Mind Control, Instant Death, and the like? Harmless, because I always take preventative measures, and play hardy characters. But damage...no, for some reason, despite high AC, good HP, high miss chances and many other allies to support me and share in the beating...it's always damage.

Oslecamo
2010-01-06, 08:00 PM
I, as a player never grapple. But my DM has been known to use monsters that do. With improved grab. And about a +30ish grapple modifier. It frustrates me to no end that there's no way to counter somethign like that and be useful for anything but grappling.

Close combat quarters burns you one feat, but makes you basically immune to grapple if you're a good melee dude. Basically you always get an Aoo to prevent a grapple, and if you suceed you get a bonus equal to the damage you dealt on the grapple check.

If you're a caster, freedom of movement/dimension door.

Aldizog
2010-01-06, 08:17 PM
Close combat quarters burns you one feat, but makes you basically immune to grapple if you're a good melee dude. Basically you always get an Aoo to prevent a grapple, and if you suceed you get a bonus equal to the damage you dealt on the grapple check.

If you're a caster, freedom of movement/dimension door.
I'm a little unclear on Close-Quarters Combat. Do you just assume that the PC can take the AOO even if he doesn't threaten the creature's space? The feat is supposed to bypass the no-AOO effect of Improved Grab, but does it also ignore the no-AOO effect of "he's beyond your reach"? Just assume the PC is attacking the claw/tentacle/etc?

And if that's the case, then can a PC in general ready an action to attack the claw/tentacle/etc. of a monster that's attacking from beyond his reach?

Zeful
2010-01-06, 08:18 PM
Player entitlement: The concept that I as the DM am banned from perfectly valid strategies because of some arbitrary "gentleman's agreement" is silly. Villains will be trying to kill you, not take your stuff, rust monsters and disjunctions help that, thus you will face those dangers against such people. If you don't like that, prepare against it.

Boci
2010-01-06, 08:27 PM
Player entitlement: The concept that I as the DM am banned from perfectly valid strategies because of some arbitrary "gentleman's agreement" is silly. Villains will be trying to kill you, not take your stuff, rust monsters and disjunctions help that, thus you will face those dangers against such people. If you don't like that, prepare against it.

But DnD is about fun, so what if your players don't like loosing their gear, instead being challanged in other ways? Also, why do your villains not consider taking loot themselves?

As for me, well save or die in general. Thats one thing 4E did right.

Kallisti
2010-01-06, 08:33 PM
Dice. Definitely dice. For some reason they all hate me.

Thelas
2010-01-06, 08:43 PM
Dice. Definitely dice. For some reason they all hate me.

Yes.
The dice hate me.
Whether hating me is a 1 or a 20 depends, because I usually DM and I don't like tpks.
But they hate me, all right.

holywhippet
2010-01-06, 08:56 PM
I had a problem in a 4E game where we were trying to pass a diplomacy skill check. My warlord was the only one in the party with decent talking skills. Unfortunately the other players kept piping up with helpful comments - which were followed by the DM saying "making a diplomacy/bluff check".

Temotei
2010-01-06, 09:07 PM
Falling damage. I tend to have my characters jump off high things. It hurts. :smallannoyed:

*mumble*grumble*

Boci
2010-01-06, 09:12 PM
Falling damage. I tend to have my characters jump off high things. It hurts. :smallannoyed:

*mumble*grumble*

Assuming 3.5, do you have 2k spare?

Slayn82
2010-01-06, 09:16 PM
But DnD is about fun, so what if your players don't like loosing their gear, instead being challanged in other ways? Also, why do your villains not consider taking loot themselves?

Well, as someone that has been facing this since 2nd edition, ( i probably lost more magic items to bad rolls at fireballs saves than anyone, including once a Ring of 3 Wishes and a bag of Holding with 200,000gp. In AD&D) you can get used to it, and there is always the chance to grab something new and change the airs. Or beat more enthusiasticaly the Jerk that did it. Also, i tend to sunder/cleave magic items a lot, to despair of mages nearby. I like to take the victory from the Jaws of Misery.

My true bane in D&D has been cursed items. Of course, often im forced to use them anyway. At least those dont leave me at fumbles. And some of them are very cheap for their effects.

Dimers
2010-01-06, 10:30 PM
Hamfisted railroading from uninventive DMs. SoDs, lousy rolls, players being stupid, these things I can handle. But when the DM only has one right answer and can only think of one way the whole party could possibly get that answer, that kills the fun of the game for me. If you're going to give us a cutscene anyway, don't make your players spend hours trying to guess what precise method you're thinking of. Gahh. :smallfurious:

Zeful
2010-01-06, 10:39 PM
But DnD is about fun, so what if your players don't like loosing their gear, instead being challenged in other ways? Also, why do your villains not consider taking loot themselves?

First: Because I consider the main way to challenge my players is with puzzles. I derive the most enjoyment when the players manage to back me into a corner instead of me backing them into a corner. Also I see no point in pulling my punches.

Second: Any loot the villain might gain is secondary to the successful defense of his plans, so they will try to gain as much of an advantage against the PCs as possible. Attacking items is the quickest way to gain that advantage, so is the first offensive action to take towards victory, as well as the most effective.

Again I see no reason to pull my punches.

Temotei
2010-01-06, 10:49 PM
Assuming 3.5, do you have 2k spare?

I can never find the right item, and for some reason, DM's hate my feather fall items. :smallannoyed:

I should definitely be a good DM someday. Then I can actually include my favorite items that aren't totally overpowered.

I should just always multiclass into sorcerer or wizard for feather fall. :smallamused:

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-07, 12:31 AM
MDJ wrecks game sessions and is slightly harder to recover from than death. Saying "I'll reroll a level lower" should never be a boost in power. Meanwhile, the rules for adjucating MDJ are idiotic. Make saves for your items. Each of them. For the entire party. And do you check items in extra-dimensional spaces? What happens to items stored in extra-dimensional spaces that are Disjoined? What's the CL on your +7 sword with 13K in special abilities on it? What's an item's bonus to saves, anyways? Are Cloaks of Resistance checked first or last? And each member of the party is asking those questions, looking for anything to let them keep the items that are vital to their power at those levels.

And meanwhile, no one is having fun. Because losing a massive chunk of power is never fun, especially when there is no reasonable defense against it. Just like Sunder, or Blasphemy, players cannot be immune to them without focusing so much on that that they're weak against everything else.

For my bane, Blasting spells. I never make my saves against them, and they've wiped out several of my characters. Actually, dice in general seem to hate me.

Temotei
2010-01-07, 12:33 AM
MDJ wrecks game sessions and is slightly harder to recover from than death. Saying "I'll reroll a level lower" should never be a boost in power. Meanwhile, the rules for adjucating MDJ are idiotic. Make saves for your items. Each of them. For the entire party. And do you check items in extra-dimensional spaces? What happens to items stored in extra-dimensional spaces that are Disjoined? What's the CL on your +7 sword with 13K in special abilities on it? What's an item's bonus to saves, anyways? Are Cloaks of Resistance checked first or last? And each member of the party is asking those questions, looking for anything to let them keep the items that are vital to their power at those levels.

And meanwhile, no one is having fun. Because losing a massive chunk of power is never fun, especially when there is no reasonable defense against it. Just like Sunder, or Blasphemy, players cannot be immune to them without focusing so much on that that they're weak against everything else.

For my bane, Blasting spells. I never make my saves against them, and they've wiped out several of my characters. Actually, dice in general seem to hate me.

So you wouldn't survive the 150 foot drops my characters have?

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-07, 12:51 AM
So you wouldn't survive the 150 foot drops my characters have?More like, I've rolled up, and been forced to play, a char whose average stats were 8, with only one stat out of 9 above a 10. That said, I generally have ways of surviving falls, some of which are...inventive.

arguskos
2010-01-07, 12:53 AM
More like, I've rolled up, and been forced to play, a char whose average stats were 8, with only one stat out of 9 above a 10. That said, I generally have ways of surviving falls, some of which are...inventive.
Wait, srsly?! Daaaaamn. That's crappy. What char was that one, pray tell? Also, Scruff wants to speak with you about a char concept. He's on atm.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-07, 01:05 AM
Wait, srsly?! Daaaaamn. That's crappy. What char was that one, pray tell? Also, Scruff wants to speak with you about a char concept. He's on atm.My lappy is in the shop, so probably can't get on with this PoS, but I'll try.

It wasn't D&D, the system was 3d6 9 times in order, then roll 3d6 and replace one. I also got a 4d6 roll-and-place-anywhere for my race. My stats ranged from 5(int)-9, with one 10 and one 15(in Wis). I ended up playing a priest of a nature god. We evenually decided he had down syndrome. Decently fun, but never again. Not being able to contribute sucks.

I've also gotten 40 on HP rolls that should have averaged 70(Arguskos let me reroll, thankfully) and failed saves vs massive firey death that I needed a 4 for. I have repeatedly considered making reroll-focused characters because of this, but never gone through with it.

Temotei
2010-01-07, 01:08 AM
My lappy is in the shop, so probably can't get on with this PoS, but I'll try.

It wasn't D&D, the system was 3d6 9 times in order, then roll 3d6 and replace one. I also got a 4d6 roll-and-place-anywhere for my race. My stats ranged from 5(int)-9, with one 10 and one 15(in Wis). I ended up playing a priest of a nature god. We evenually decided he had down syndrome. Decently fun, but never again. Not being able to contribute sucks.

I've also gotten 40 on HP rolls that should have averaged 70(Arguskos let me reroll, thankfully) and failed saves vs massive firey death that I needed a 4 for. I have repeatedly considered making reroll-focused characters because of this, but never gone through with it.

Murphy's Law.

Look at Complete Scoundrel though. Seriously.

Malificus
2010-01-07, 01:12 AM
rapiers.

I reliably crit miss with them. I'm usually better off using a bow in melee than I am using a rapier.

Glass Mouse
2010-01-07, 01:58 AM
TPKs.

That's right - When I die, I don't go alone! :smallamused:

(or rather, my GMs hardly ever kills anyone unless it's a muck-up big enough to off the entire party. It tends to be pretty awesome.)

Vaynor
2010-01-07, 02:06 AM
The "Instant Death" optional rule from the DMG. Basically, whenever someone threatens on a Nat 20, followed by another Nat 20 on an attack roll, and confirms it, the target dies instantly unless they're immune to critical hits.

Guess that explains why I'm currently playing a Necropolitan.

I was participating in a level one campaign and I was something like 3 exp off of level 2, so I decided to go to the local inn's basement and kill a rat to level up before heading out. We were using that rule and the rat killed me in one hit.

Ravingdork
2010-01-07, 03:30 AM
I was participating in a level one campaign and I was something like 3 exp off of level 2, so I decided to go to the local inn's basement and kill a rat to level up before heading out. We were using that rule and the rat killed me in one hit.

One of my friends was playing a level 12 half-celestial paladin. He was drawn into a wizard's arena style game where he was forced to fight everything from teams of manticores to small dragons to purple worms. Single handedly he bested all of the wizard's monsters. The wizard, so furious at the loss of all of his wonderful pets, challenged the paladin himself.

The fight ended in round 1 when the wizard won initiative and hit the paladin with a chill touch spell, instantly killing him with a SUPA-crit.

The SUPA-paladin was just KO'd by a 1st-level spell from a wizard not even half his level.

You haven't seen player fury until you humiliate someone that badly.

ON TOPIC: My bane is hellfire. I can't tell you how many high level games are lost to TPK because some boss explodes dealing hellfire damage to the party, which fire immunity does nothing against (even though we prepared in advance!).

Death throes (the spell or the balor ability) is pretty aggravating too as there is no real way around it.

Smythen
2010-01-07, 07:15 AM
@Smythen
That must have been a very lucky dragon, as you can only use your breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds, 1d4-1 with a feat from Draconomicon the name of which escapes me.

Effect:
Stun et al. It's the one my players complain most about, so much that the DMPC has to use Resurgence very often...

Gamemaster didnt give a **** and just fried me. btw it was 2nd ed. So the rules where most likely different.

potatocubed
2010-01-07, 07:40 AM
Player characters. Always killing the NPCs they're supposed to talk to, allying with the ones they're supposed to kill, and otherwise foiling my plans.

*shaky fist*

Rhiannon87
2010-01-07, 08:42 AM
Player characters. Always killing the NPCs they're supposed to talk to, allying with the ones they're supposed to kill, and otherwise foiling my plans.

*shaky fist*

LOL. Our wizard just single-handedly killed a pair of named NPCs (probably not allies, but important-ish people, apparently) because she was out for a walk and being too friendly. The DM had huge eyes of shock the entire combat... which ended up being rather brief, as the wizard summoned a chaos beast.

Oslecamo
2010-01-07, 08:46 AM
The fight ended in round 1 when the wizard won initiative and hit the paladin with a chill touch spell, instantly killing him with a SUPA-crit.

The SUPA-paladin was just KO'd by a 1st-level spell from a wizard not even half his level.


Eerrr, how is that possible? Chill touch deals 1d6 damage and 1 str. Crit doubles that, doing 2d6 damage and 2 str. That's a maximum of 12 damage. Either the paladin was on his last HP, or you were using homebrewed crit rules, in wich case pretty much anything with a lot of luck could have killed the paladin.

paddyfool
2010-01-07, 08:48 AM
Read back in the thread, and you'll see they were using the "Instant Death" optional rule from the DMG...

Evard
2010-01-07, 09:01 AM
My big bane problem is DM's that don't like it when things don't go their way... Also if they didn't like my character concepts (like my crazy female warlord or my male wizard with precious monocle) and kill them off instead of just saying not to make characters like that... I RP when i can but certain DM's of mine in the past hated it if the RP went over 2 seconds and tended to punish anyone who did (hint dead characters) -_-;;;

Oslecamo
2010-01-07, 09:02 AM
Well, I guess that if they agreed to use that alternate rule, they should be prepared to get their characters one shotted by anything that can deal damage.

Boci
2010-01-07, 09:06 AM
First: Because I consider the main way to challenge my players is with puzzles. I derive the most enjoyment when the players manage to back me into a corner instead of me backing them into a corner. Also I see no point in pulling my punches.

Huh? How is that relevant to my question? How does destroying all their shiny magical gear relate to that?


Second: Any loot the villain might gain is secondary to the successful defense of his plans, so they will try to gain as much of an advantage against the PCs as possible. Attacking items is the quickest way to gain that advantage, so is the first offensive action to take towards victory, as well as the most effective.

So at level 14, your villain is willing to write of 480k worth of magical items? He's not even going to try and kill the PCs whilst leaving there items intacts? Yeah, sure, I could totally believe every BBEG I face using that mindset.


Again I see no reason to pull my punches.

What if your players don't want to loose their magical items.

Oslecamo
2010-01-07, 09:19 AM
So at level 14, your villain is willing to write of 480k worth of magical items? He's not even going to try and kill the PCs whilst leaving there items intacts? Yeah, sure, I could totally believe every BBEG I face using that mindset.

I dunno, perhaps a BBEG that doesn't want to get killed by rods of metacheese and vorpal swords. Loot is nice, but killing the PCs is the priority, and geting rid of their magic items will make that much easier.



What if your players don't want to loose their magical items.
[/QUOTE]
There's more magic loot out there. My settings don't spin around the PCs. There will be medium level nobles to be mugged, orcs to raid, ect, ect. What, don't tell me you never saw a rogue stealing stuff whitout killing? Heck, if they're high level enough for disjuction to be thrown around, I may even let them use a wish/miracle to get their stuff back. Pelor would certainly be willing to give you a favor if you stopped that evil ritual to blot out the sun.

2xMachina
2010-01-07, 09:33 AM
Unless you give them a free wish, they're down 5k xp. Per encounter you MDJ.

Might as well change the stupid MDJ to suppress all magic item for 1d4 rounds or something like that. Does the job, and no permanent WBL damage (or hefty xp cost)

Boci
2010-01-07, 09:43 AM
I dunno, perhaps a BBEG that doesn't want to get killed by rods of metacheese and vorpal swords. Loot is nice, but killing the PCs is the priority, and geting rid of their magic items will make that much easier.

So no arogant villain who assumes he can take on the PCs with heir magical items? No causious calculator who is determine to at least try and not destroy the magical items whose value could accelerate his plan by a considerable amount? I don't mind one BBEG destroying all items but if everyone does so I am going to get very annoyed.



There's more magic loot out there. My settings don't spin around the PCs. There will be medium level nobles to be mugged, orcs to raid, ect, ect. What, don't tell me you never saw a rogue stealing stuff whitout killing? Heck, if they're high level enough for disjuction to be thrown around, I may even let them use a wish/miracle to get their stuff back. Pelor would certainly be willing to give you a favor if you stopped that evil ritual to blot out the sun.

Again, once that is okay. But if I have to raid minor nobles after every BBEG fight its going to get boring. Also, the stardard, melee need magical items for than casters (and ironically enough, casters can defend their magical items better then melee). If all your BBEG use MDJ, how many people are going to play melee?

Cyanic
2010-01-07, 09:51 AM
Not entirely in the right spirit but my bane has always been real-life scheduling. :smallyuk:

Blackfang108
2010-01-07, 09:53 AM
I had a problem in a 4E game where we were trying to pass a diplomacy skill check. My warlord was the only one in the party with decent talking skills. Unfortunately the other players kept piping up with helpful comments - which were followed by the DM saying "making a diplomacy/bluff check".

We had two people with Training in Diplomacy and Decent Cha. (One was CHA based).

Neither of us were able to talk one session, and the other two idiots - excuse me, party members, wouldn't shut up ands start pissing off the lordling we were talking to. (My character ended up staging the suicide of the Lordling. Exactly three living people know that I did it.)

Slayn82
2010-01-07, 10:21 AM
So no arogant villain who assumes he can take on the PCs with heir magical items? No causious calculator who is determine to at least try and not destroy the magical items whose value could accelerate his plan by a considerable amount? I don't mind one BBEG destroying all items but if everyone does so I am going to get very annoyed.

Again, once that is okay. But if I have to raid minor nobles after every BBEG fight its going to get boring. Also, the stardard, melee need magical items for than casters (and ironically enough, casters can defend their magical items better then melee). If all your BBEG use MDJ, how many people are going to play melee?

No reason to have all BBEG using MDJ. Only a few. And the ones that do usually have a very frightening reputation, because one thing a high level caster cant really do is to hide what spells are his favorites, or their best tricks, with Bardic Knowledge checks and Legend and Histories spells. Or simple detect magic and identify magic checks when seeing the after effects of the spells. Yes, mid to high level magical battles start way before the contending sides face up.

And the alternate rules for shutting down magical items looks a good compromisse, but instead of permanent or 1d4 rounds inert should be more like 1d4 days. Consumable items like scrolls and potions die and Items with charge stay inert for 1d4 days and lose half of the remaining charges.

This beast is "THE MAGICAL NUKE" after all, able to wreck artifacts, so lets at least degrade it to a Magical EMP. And eliminate the "safe zone for the caster", because that is just unfair. Its not supposed to be "I WIN", without risks. It should be " LETS ALL LOSE". Or "i didnt brought my magical items, so take that".

Usually, this spell is a lotto game of who keeps more magical items around. In 2nd Edition, with no WBL and every adventure giving a bunch of magical items, one more unfair than the other, you usually lost just 1/3 of your magic at high levels, and had ready backups in a chest in your mule somewhere.

Also, do other people bother to put non casters BBEG in their games, or its only me?

Emmerask
2010-01-07, 10:33 AM
The Orb spells in 3.5. Ranged touch attack, no save. Against anything big (i.e. low touch AC), it's like an automatic damage button.


nerfed(houesruled) it along time ago to a normal ranged attack, makes no sense being a touch attack anyway :smalltongue:

anyway my bane is death in lots of games caused by to much confidence in my characters and dice ^^

Fiery Diamond
2010-01-07, 11:01 AM
^ You can take a 10 as long as you are not threatened or distracted, which you are not. The only times you are you can't hide anyway, because you are being observed. Taking 10's is practically made for stealth.


Check out the skill rules. You can take a 10 instead of rolling as long as you are not threatened or distracted. Usually that means "not in combat". If a poor roll has no negative consequences, you can essentially retry 20 times without rolling to get a roll of 20. Naturally this takes 20 times as long as normal.

However, most of the time a poor roll on stealth checks (move silently or hide) DOES have negative consequences. Especially move silently.

Ravingdork
2010-01-07, 12:12 PM
Read back in the thread, and you'll see they were using the "Instant Death" optional rule from the DMG...

We've since stopped using that rule as a result of what happened to the paladin.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-07, 12:24 PM
Player entitlement: The concept that I as the DM am banned from perfectly valid strategies because of some arbitrary "gentleman's agreement" is silly. Villains will be trying to kill you, not take your stuff, rust monsters and disjunctions help that, thus you will face those dangers against such people. If you don't like that, prepare against it.

In the unlikely event I ever play with a DM such as this, I will happily use all the various TO tricks to thus acheive effective immortality.

This is why the gentleman's agreement is in place.

ericgrau
2010-01-07, 12:46 PM
Since purchasing Fiery Dragon's Battleboxes, I never had problems with grapple, though I do wish they'd included a handy-dandy Turn Undead reference, 'cause I was always looking that up when the people playing the clerics bothered to show up to the games.
Sig. :smallbiggrin: References for all such things, including grapple and turn undead. Or if you just want the summarized turn undead rules, go to the main page (ericgrau.fileave.com I think) and download the .doc version so you can copy-paste the text you want.


However, most of the time a poor roll on stealth checks (move silently or hide) DOES have negative consequences. Especially move silently.
You can still take 10's on stealthy checks, you just can't take 20's. Taking 20's is basically done only when you could reroll 20 times, so essentially you also get a 1 and everything in between. If you can't do that then you can't take a 20. Taking 20 is simply faster than rolling 20 times.

Zeful
2010-01-07, 12:57 PM
So no arogant villain who assumes he can take on the PCs with heir magical items? No causious calculator who is determine to at least try and not destroy the magical items whose value could accelerate his plan by a considerable amount? I don't mind one BBEG destroying all items but if everyone does so I am going to get very annoyed.Few of my BBEGs are foolish enough to take that risk. The plan comes first, any loot they might gain if they successfully kill the PCs is secondary at best.


In the unlikely event I ever play with a DM such as this, I will happily use all the various TO tricks to thus acheive effective immortality.

This is why the gentleman's agreement is in place.

Theoretical optimization in a game requires the DM accept the same interpretation as you do. That's not a given.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-07, 01:10 PM
Theoretical optimization in a game requires the DM accept the same interpretation as you do. That's not a given.There's not necessarily a debate. Look at the ban list for ToS. Almost none of the banned stuff had a reasonable interpretation, or they would have used that. Heck, the ECL 13 immortal Dweomerkeeper has no RAW-debates, simply SU spell, DMM Persist, and Warforged. What about Control Winds? Orbizards? Holy Word? Heck, Planar Shepherds with either Fast time or free wishes. Gentlemen's ageements are required for a reasonable game.

babson99
2010-01-07, 01:53 PM
1. Dispel Magic and buffs. I put in a house rule that Dispel Magic can't strip buffs after the cleric used it against a bbeg who had eight different buffs going, and a huge battle had to halt while I recalculated a half-dozen stats.

2. Freedom of Movement. Bye bye, any sort of grappling or terrain hindrance. I'd be fine if the spell gave a +10 bonus or whatever.

3. In Pathfinder, the nerfing of size bonuses to grappling. Hasn't anyone on that development team ever tried to grab a small child or dog? If I want to grab my seven year-old daughter or my beagle, they're gonna get grappled.

4. Heroes' Feast precludes all poisons. This got fixed in Pathfinder.

Oslecamo
2010-01-07, 02:05 PM
Heck, Planar Shepherds with either Fast time or free wishes. Gentlemen's ageements are required for a reasonable game.

It's the DM who decides wich planes exist and wich don't on his setting, and if you look closely at an Efreet's entry, you'll notice the "1/day—grant up to three wishes " isn't actually an SLA(it's separated from the other SLAs by an ";", the wishes aren't connected to the spell wish, and aren't even italized), so it's entirely up to the DM what that particular ability actually does.

Boci: Not every BBEG is gonna throw disjuction off course, certainly not at low-medium levels, but as you level up and aproach epic, the monsters will get stronger, and disjuction is a powerfull 9th level spell whitout extra costs to the casters, so a BBEG wizard or cleric with magic domain would certainly have it ready.

2xMachina
2010-01-07, 02:17 PM
Solar. Core, and casts cleric spells at CL 20, so Miracle.

SLA, Wish, 1 per day too.

So, it's a Druid who is also a lvl 20 cleric.

Oslecamo
2010-01-07, 02:23 PM
He's also CR 23. So it would be suprising if he was just as strong as a 20th level druid.:smalltongue:

2xMachina
2010-01-07, 02:27 PM
Wait, since when Planar Shepherd's Wildshape to Outsider gives them CR?

Oslecamo
2010-01-07, 04:24 PM
Wait, since when Planar Shepherd's Wildshape to Outsider gives them CR?

If I remember well, a planar shepered cannot change into an outsider with more HD than itself, and solars have 22 of them. So no solar-druid pre-epic!

Sleepingbear
2010-01-07, 05:39 PM
My bane would have to be DM's that just decide that something isn't going to work the way it's supposed to.

Despite previously agreed upon and used rules.

Despite common sense.

Despite the decision destroying fun for all players involved.

The example that comes to mind happened recently at a table where the DM is normally fair in the even application of the rules, uses common sense and strives to ensure that the players have fun. Which is why the incident sticks out so sharply.

We were investigating some Ork raiders. We spotted a scout. I cast deeper sleep on him and we thus captured him. While he was unconscious I cast bestow curse on him to knock 6 points off his wisdom. He was also hit with an enervate. Both spells stuck.

When he woke up, we started playing out the good cop, bad cop, indifferent cop routine on him. We role played it out and backed it up with extremely high rolls on intimidate, bluff and diplomacy. All by people with substantial ranks in those skills.

He wouldn't even tell us his name. Nothing we said or did mattered, the DM just plain decided he wasn't going to talk. Rules didn't matter. RP didn't matter. Common sense and fun didn't matter.

And all we were trying to do was further the plot by gathering information! :smallconfused:

The encounter and the session ended when some ork raiders attacked. We fended them off but not before they coup de graced the captive. Probably because I said out loud that it could wait until after I had memorized charm person. :smallfrown:

It was the first time all the players left the session unsatisfied with how things went. :smallyuk:

So yeah, DM's get a lot of authority but when they abuse it, the game is ruined. :smallmad:

Boci
2010-01-08, 12:50 AM
If I remember well, a planar shepered cannot change into an outsider with more HD than itself, and solars have 22 of them. So no solar-druid pre-epic!

Isn't it based off caster level? Because that it quite easy to boost.




Boci: Not every BBEG is gonna throw disjuction off course, certainly not at low-medium levels, but as you level up and aproach epic, the monsters will get stronger, and disjuction is a powerfull 9th level spell whitout extra costs to the casters, so a BBEG wizard or cleric with magic domain would certainly have it ready.

Loosing 500k or more in loot sounds like a cost to me.

Zeful
2010-01-08, 12:53 AM
Loosing 500k or more in loot sounds like a cost to me.

500k in loot versus ruling the world and everything in it.

Name on villain that will take the money.:smallsigh:

Boci
2010-01-08, 01:01 AM
500k in loot versus ruling the world and everything in it.

Name on villain that will take the money.:smallsigh:

So what, none of your villains need the money? All there schemes are already accounted for, fully funded, set in motion and the PCs are the only thing standing in their way?:smallsigh:

Also, you are hurting melee a lot more than spell casters with this teactic.

I'm with Tyndmyr on this one. In such a game, I would start using the unholy trio.

Seatbelt
2010-01-08, 01:37 AM
Players.

No, really, my player's have been my bane. Not because they jack up my plans (I don't plan much anymore), but because they took the old axiom of "Measure twice, cut once" to it's logical extreme "measure x times, cut once, where x is how many hours are in the session". :smallannoyed: What I wouldn't give for a group that just DID stuff.

I play headstrong characters with low wisdom for exactly this reason. A door? I open it. A switch and a question about what to do? I hit it. Etc etc. I do it so often the DM created a trap whose solution could only be solved by doing something unintuitive. I advocated it for the whole half hour debate and the party thought it was moronic. But I won that round, trebeck. :D

Zeful
2010-01-08, 01:57 AM
So what, none of your villains need the money? All there schemes are already accounted for, fully funded, set in motion and the PCs are the only thing standing in their way?:smallsigh:

Also, you are hurting melee a lot more than spell casters with this teactic.

I'm with Tyndmyr on this one. In such a game, I would start using the unholy trio.

For the BBEG of the campaign, who is likely the first villain high enough level to use this tactic? Yes, he is fully funded, all his plans are in motion and waiting on the full moon or something when the PCs show up to save the world. If the PCs manage to figure out everything early then they will have likely interrupted something important, and maybe even stole the plot critical MacGuffin causing the BBEG to seek them out.

And yes I'm aware of how much more it hurts melee than casters: I Don't Care, I already do enough to reign back the power of casters.

Aldizog
2010-01-08, 02:06 AM
So what, none of your villains need the money? All there schemes are already accounted for, fully funded, set in motion and the PCs are the only thing standing in their way?:smallsigh:

If I'm the BBEG spellcaster, I'm not going to defeat the PCs in a manner that preserves their gear, go sell their gear at a random market, and then use the proceeds to buy what I need.

First, I'm going to be absolutely sure that I kill them. Using the most effective means possible, showing no mercy, and using Trap the Soul or a similar method to prevent Resurrection. If Disjunction means I have a 99% chance of surviving, and failing to use Disjunction means I have a 98% chance of surviving, then I use it every single time, no matter what. I didn't get to be BBEG by being stupid. And it's not just items, anyway; it also auto-dispels their buffs and contingencies.

Second, I take what I need. WBL is entirely irrelevant to me. I rob, murder, manipulate, enslave, and extort to get whatever I need. If I need 5,000 gp in diamond dust, do you think I'm going to go to a jeweler and buy it? No, I'll track and kill the mid-level cleric I see walking out of his shop. I really don't need money; I can cast 9th-level spells, after all.

Third, how likely is it that I could sell the magic items even if I wanted to? My evil reputation means that most people won't deal with me, either out of principle or out of fear that I'll mess with them. With good reason. If I do sell any magic items to gullible fools, they're ones that I've specifically designed to never work against me; perhaps they allow me to scry on or dominate the owner as well. If a PC fighting me has a Vorpal Sword, well, I might give it to a lieutenant that will never betray me (some kind of golem, maybe). But I'm not going to preserve those items unless I'm absolutely positive I can slay the intruders at no risk to me whatsoever.

And, yeah, I imagine that any near-Epic villain capable of casting Disjunction is among the most powerful beings in the world. Probably has a dozen schemes in motion and fully funded, and the PCs are the last best hope to stop him. This is not some Dr. Horrible wanna-be.

Boci
2010-01-08, 02:11 AM
For the BBEG of the campaign, who is likely the first villain high enough level to use this tactic? Yes, he is fully funded, all his plans are in motion and waiting on the full moon or something when the PCs show up to save the world.

Every time? Doesn't that get old?

What if you're PCs don't care what you think constitutes smart tactics for the BBEG and just want to have a hack'n'slash combat with him without worrying about their magical items.


And yes I'm aware of how much more it hurts melee than casters: I Don't Care, I already do enough to reign back the power of casters.

Wrong response. The fact that casters are nerfed doesn't change the fact that melee without magic items cannot cover most of there many weaknesses, such as lack of flight, vulnerability to SoD/S, ect.

Also, if casters in your game are nerfed, how does MDJ still exist?


If I'm the BBEG spellcaster, I'm not going to defeat the PCs in a manner that preserves their gear, go sell their gear at a random market, and then use the proceeds to buy what I need.

First, I'm going to be absolutely sure that I kill them. Using the most effective means possible, showing no mercy, and using Trap the Soul or a similar method to prevent Resurrection. If Disjunction means I have a 99% chance of surviving, and failing to use Disjunction means I have a 98% chance of surviving, then I use it every single time, no matter what. I didn't get to be BBEG by being stupid. And it's not just items, anyway; it also auto-dispels their buffs and contingencies.

1. Which such tactics used by the BBEGs, who is going to play melee?

2. I guess I just expect a different kind of BBEG. When I DM, WBL is very relevant to BBEG, and the PCs are rarely the only threat they face.

Aldizog
2010-01-08, 02:46 AM
What if you're PCs don't care what you think constitutes smart tactics for the BBEG and just want to have a hack'n'slash combat with him without worrying about their magical items.
If the characters want to go into a fight with a caster capable of 9th-level spells without considering what tactics he might use, and just hope to hack him to death, they will almost certainly all die. As a player and a DM, I wouldn't have it any other way.


1. Which such tactics used by the BBEGs, who is going to play melee?
Players who enjoy melee characters. It is the DM's job to ensure game balance and to design encounters and adventures such that different character types can contribute. IME, theoretical optimization is a game people play on the Internet, where casters always win; in D&D, which people play at tables in person, the disparity is not so great, because it's a game that you play with your friends. You develop tactics that let everybody have fun. Were I a player going up against a caster BBEG, depending on the terrain, I could certainly be behind a surprise plan of "blanket the room in antimagic fields and let the fighters handle him." Even if I were playing a caster and it would mean less spotlight time for me. Because that just sounds a lot cooler and more fun than a wizard-duel with the fighters sitting on the sidelines.



2. I guess I just expect a different kind of BBEG. When I DM, WBL is very relevant to BBEG, and the PCs are rarely the only threat they face.
WBL has serious, serious flaws as an aspect of game design if you look at it as a rule rather than as a guideline. Most of all that it breaks versimilitude. NPCs and PCs are measurably different in-game; spending doesn't matter; PC rogues are prohibited from lifting that noble's dagger if it would put them over WBL. No, it's a guideline, and there are exceptions. A noble can be an exception, as he can be low-level with a lot of wealth. A Conan type can be an exception, as he spends all of his money. A high-level caster is an exception, as he just takes what he needs or abuses spells to get what he wants.

As to PCs being the only threat? For the PCs to have some motivation to take the almost-certain-death mission of attacking a near-Epic caster, they do have to be pretty much certain that it is absolutely necessary and that there is nobody else both willing and able to do it.

Zeful
2010-01-08, 02:54 AM
Every time? Doesn't that get old?Why would it? He's the climax of the entire campaign, it's likely been months between the start of the campaign and now.


What if you're PCs don't care what you think constitutes smart tactics for the BBEG and just want to have a hack'n'slash combat with him without worrying about their magical items.Because such a game might last two sessions. Hack'n'Slash with no story goes nowhere fast with me, I suck at running them. I'm a good storyteller, and I like doing it, so that's what I'm going to run the most.


Also, if casters in your game are nerfed, how does MDJ still exist?Because I do not view it as a detriment to gameplay.


2. I guess I just expect a different kind of BBEG. When I DM, WBL is very relevant to BBEG, and the PCs are rarely the only threat they face.I expect my BBEGs to be ruthless Genre Savvy monsters, both as a player and a DM. Pretty much Evil Overlord List villains.

As for WBL: It's a guideline, I see no problems breaking items that the PCs were going to get rid of anyway and then giving them better stuff and money (to make up for the broken stuff). If I followed the WBL guidelines, then I can only give them better stuff or money. The only thing I'm not touching are PC defining items, unless the Player says it's okay.

Boci
2010-01-08, 02:56 AM
Players who enjoy melee characters. It is the DM's job to ensure game balance and to design encounters and adventures such that different character types can contribute.

Hence the BBEGs not casting MDJ.


IME, theoretical optimization is a game people play on the Internet, where casters always win; in D&D, which people play at tables in person, the disparity is not so great, because it's a game that you play with your friends.

Hence no BBEGs casting MDJ.


WBL has serious, serious flaws as an aspect of game design if you look at it as a rule rather than as a guideline. Most of all that it breaks versimilitude. NPCs and PCs are measurably different in-game; spending doesn't matter;


PC rogues are prohibited from lifting that noble's dagger if it would put them over WBL.

I wouldn't stop him. If he's willing to risk it he deserves the extra gold. If he stole 10,000gp at level 3 however I'd convince him to set up a business so he could benefit from the gold without breaking WDL.


No, it's a guideline, and there are exceptions.

I know, but WDL is never "of no concern" to adventurers and BBEGs in my game.


As to PCs being the only threat? For the PCs to have some motivation to take the almost-certain-death mission of attacking a near-Epic caster, they do have to be pretty much certain that it is absolutely necessary and that there is nobody else both willing and able to do it.

As a general rule for me, if the PCs won't save the world, someone else will. Then again, my PCs have not yet had to save the world, even at near epic. Sometimes my PCs have to race against other NPC adventuring parties to reach a goal.

Boci
2010-01-08, 03:02 AM
Why would it? He's the climax of the entire campaign, it's likely been months between the start of the campaign and now.

For me, "It is time for the final battle that will decide the fate of world/some country/some city, cross of all magical items" would grow old after the first time.


Because such a game might last two sessions. Hack'n'Slash with no story goes nowhere fast with me, I suck at running them. I'm a good storyteller, and I like doing it, so that's what I'm going to run the most.

That's is not what I said. Unless the BBEG has to cast MJD for it to be a good story. You can have deep roleplaying game and then end it with a simple hack'n'slash final battle without any need to worry about your gear. That doesn't invalidate the previous detailed story and in depth role playing. I have already given plausable reasons for why the BBEG does not cast MDJ.


Because I do not view it as a detriment to gameplay.

How is a spell that renders melee unable to touch spell casters (fly + wind wall) not detriment?



As for WBL: It's a guideline, I see no problems breaking items that the PCs were going to get rid of anyway and then giving them better stuff and money (to make up for the broken stuff). If I followed the WBL guidelines, then I can only give them better stuff or money. The only thing I'm not touching are PC defining items, unless the Player says it's okay.

Expect maybe your PCs want to see what it is like to fight a BBEG with magical items.

Aldizog
2010-01-08, 03:06 AM
Hence the BBEGs not casting MDJ.

That's one option. Another would be to introduce an artifact sword or two into the campaign. That boosts melee PC power and is very resistant to MDJ. Another option would be to provide (Ex) flight as a plot reward for some quest, or similar features so that the melee PCs don't need magic items. Another option would be to make use of fairly confined areas, where melee types do better. Another would be to provide Fast Healing (Ex) as a plot reward and have 10-12 encounters per day in a time-sensitive quest. There are dozens of things that a DM can do to keep melee types from feeling useless... abstaining from MDJ is not the only possible solution.

Boci
2010-01-08, 03:11 AM
That's one option. Another would be to introduce an artifact sword or two into the campaign. That boosts melee PC power and is very resistant to MDJ. Another option would be to provide (Ex) flight as a plot reward for some quest, or similar features so that the melee PCs don't need magic items. Another option would be to make use of fairly confined areas, where melee types do better. Another would be to provide Fast Healing (Ex) as a plot reward and have 10-12 encounters per day in a time-sensitive quest. There are dozens of things that a DM can do to keep melee types from feeling useless... abstaining from MDJ is not the only possible solution.

I'll admit some of those options are viable (others aren't, the BBEG you described would not end up in a confined space), but that seems like a lot of effort to justify the use of a 9th level spell. Also, what if the PCs get attached to their magical items, customizing each one?

There's also a lot more tactics melee cannot defend themselves against. Forcecage? Waves of exhaustion? Otto's irresistable dance? Are you going to give plot rewards that make them immune to all of those?

AngelisBlack
2010-01-08, 03:17 AM
As a player: DMs that give us a small army and make us fight a horde of monsters that outnumber them like 100 to 1 because we are high levels!

As a DM: Players that complain when I throw huge armies at them... Just Kidding

Really its when players take four hours to clear the first two rooms of a dungeon that only had two enemies and 1 trap. FOUR HOURS! IN A DUNGEON THAT SHOULD HAVE TAKEN FOUR HOURS TO COMPLETE!

I sadly have had a similar experience. Only, it was one room. ONE room! How does a 5 man party get held up by two clerics that are summoning?! They didn't even make it into the room, they had to retreat from the gods dammed hallway.
/rant

But my bane as a DM has been this one player who has an unhealthy obsession with elves, fey creatures, and anime. He tried to make his Beguiler a female elf carrying a Katana. Before that, he played a ranger who was a female elf too. Before that, he played a pixie [he convinced me at the time that pixies kept their special arrows even as PCs because I didn't look at the entry with more care]. Needless to say said pixie got on my nerves pretty quick and the 2 HD wonder died in a totally convincing way.

Zeful
2010-01-08, 03:22 AM
For me, "It is time for the final battle that will decide the fate of world/some country/some city, cross of all magical items" would grow old after the first time.I don't see it that way.


That's is not what I said. Unless the BBEG has to cast MJD for it to be a good story. You can have deep roleplaying game and then end it with a simple hack'n'slash final battle without any need to worry about your gear. That doesn't invalidate the previous detailed story and in depth role playing. I have already given plausable reasons for why the BBEG does not cast MDJ.I see.
I don't like those endings. You build up the Big Bad as some kind of great strategist only for the final battle to be decided by fisticuffs? That seems like it was poorly written to me.

I know that's not what you're saying, I could still have the final fight fit all the previous characterization without using MDJ. But I don't find that as satisfying an end for a highly strategic villain then having him defeated from a position of obvious power.

averagejoe
2010-01-08, 03:22 AM
Displacer beasts. They're not especially deadly or anything, I just don't like them.

Shifty bastards.

Also my players. From what I hear, it must be a small number of DM's who prefer a sandbox-esque style of DMing and have players that want to be railroaded. I have a feeling it's the whole, "Do the opposite of what the DM wants," shtick that players have going. :smallsigh:

Boci
2010-01-08, 03:28 AM
I don't see it that way.

I see.
I don't like those endings. You build up the Big Bad as some kind of great strategist only for the final battle to be decided by fisticuffs? That seems like it was poorly written to me.

I know that's not what you're saying, I could still have the final fight fit all the previous characterization without using MDJ. But I don't find that as satisfying an end for a highly strategic villain then having him defeated from a position of obvious power.

One way around that would just be to remove MJD from the game entirely and then there's no need to worry about the spell. If your players spend time customizing the appearance of their magical items its hardly fair to render it useless with a single spell.

Roderick_BR
2010-01-08, 03:46 AM
My allies' poor judgment :smallamused:

Oslecamo
2010-01-08, 04:30 AM
One way around that would just be to remove MJD from the game entirely and then there's no need to worry about the spell. If your players spend time customizing the appearance of their magical items its hardly fair to render it useless with a single spell.

If you don't have the will save to protect most of your items from MJD, you've got bigger things to worry about than losing your gear. Or is the DM suposed to don't throw any effect that demands a will save as well?

Marillion
2010-01-08, 04:40 AM
One way around that would just be to remove MJD from the game entirely and then there's no need to worry about the spell. If your players spend time customizing the appearance of their magical items its hardly fair to render it useless with a single spell.

I kinda see what you're saying, but if they (the characters or the players) really care that much about their magical items, Disjunction will really get their dander up and it'll provide incentive for them to overcome all odds and slay the villain. For example:

YOU! BROKE! MY! SWORD!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)

On topic:

Horses. Every time I try to do something involving a horse, it ends poorly for me. Once, my group was ambushed by Orc raiders. I tried to shoot them with my crossbow from horseback and critically fumbled. I shot my horse in the neck and, doing what comes naturally to things that have been shot in the neck, it fell over. I then failed my tumble check to escape the horse falling over, and wound up trapped beneath it with my legs broken. I did shoot some orcs from the ground, so I still managed to contribute, but the cleric couldn't stop laughing long enough to cast CMW on me.

BobVosh
2010-01-08, 04:49 AM
I hate gravity rules. Falling from orbit just should do more damage. I think it goes 5D4 fire damage and 20D6 damage. That means you could technically get 25 damage. Average of 82.5 damage. Which means most characters can jump from the moon (with a ring of jump) and land on the planet at level 10.

Marillion
2010-01-08, 04:54 AM
I hate gravity rules. Falling from orbit just should do more damage. I think it goes 5D4 fire damage and 20D6 damage. That means you could technically get 25 damage. Average of 82.5 damage. Which means most characters can jump from the moon (with a ring of jump) and land on the planet at level 10.

Personally, I'd rule that the PC would also have to make a fort save or die in order to not suffocate on the way down, due to how sparse the atmosphere is at the levels you're talking about.

But to be fair, a 10th level PC is (essentially) Superman when you consider that the average person only has anywhere from 4 to 10 HP. Could an average person survive a fall from orbit? Of course not. But could a superhuman? Maaaaaaaaaybe.

BobVosh
2010-01-08, 05:00 AM
Personally, I'd rule that the PC would also have to make a fort save or die in order to not suffocate on the way down, due to how sparse the atmosphere is at the levels you're talking about.

But to be fair, a 10th level PC is (essentially) Superman when you consider that the average person only has anywhere from 4 to 10 HP. Could an average person survive a fall from orbit? Of course not. But could a superhuman? Maaaaaaaaaybe.

A second level fighter could. with 3 con bonus, and incredible luck, they could even walk away without a care. 20 from HD, 6 from con. 25 damage.

Also you can hold your breath for con score, and I have no clue how close the moon is since it depends on the world. However in some it probably isn't too far for that. Throw in necklace of adaptation or bottle of air, and suffocating isn't going to happen. Drowning/suffocating rules are a bit silly, but I don't mind them much.

Marillion
2010-01-08, 05:31 AM
Also you can hold your breath for con score, and I have no clue how close the moon is since it depends on the world.
Assuming first that it's a fairly earth-like world, if you reached terminal velocity quickly, you might hold your breath long enough to make it down to where there is air to breathe, but at terminal velocity the air will almost literally be ripped out of your lungs. (Interesting note; My biology teacher told me that when people fall from extraordinarily distances, it's not usually the sudden stop at the end that kills them:smalltongue:). Also, if you're falling from orbit, chances are you'll be screaming like an unfed infant with diaper rash, and thus be unable to hold your breath as long. (Will save vs fear?)


However in some it probably isn't too far for that. Throw in necklace of adaptation or bottle of air, and suffocating isn't going to happen.
True, but who is going to be prepared for a sudden drop from orbit? I mean, that's not exactly a scenario that crosses most adventurer's minds.:smalltongue:

But, with enough preparation and tremendous amounts of luck, yeah, a second level fighter might survive a fall from orbit.

Roderick_BR
2010-01-08, 07:16 AM
So what, none of your villains need the money? All there schemes are already accounted for, fully funded, set in motion and the PCs are the only thing standing in their way?:smallsigh:

Also, you are hurting melee a lot more than spell casters with this teactic.

I'm with Tyndmyr on this one. In such a game, I would start using the unholy trio.
Some villains may still carry it since they routinelly runs into groups strong enough to be a threat, so he may think that destroying the enemy's equipment so he doesn't die far outweights the lost loot.
And again, some villains are not interested into "looting" heroes. They'll just pick up whatever looks valuable and throw it into the treasure vault or something.
You don't see Lex Luthor or the Joker trying to steal things from Batman and Superman (even though Joker already thought about it, and Superman carry nothing other than his suit).

Oslecamo
2010-01-08, 08:43 AM
And again, some villains are not interested into "looting" heroes. They'll just pick up whatever looks valuable and throw it into the treasure vault or something.
You don't see Lex Luthor or the Joker trying to steal things from Batman and Superman (even though Joker already thought about it, and Superman carry nothing other than his suit).

And don't forget the villains wich are not even interested in a profit, and just challenging heros!

After all, what's the sense of spending billions of dollars into a super tech evil suit, and then attacking a public bank where you'll get only some hundreds of thousands of bucks at best?

Aldizog
2010-01-08, 11:15 AM
I'll admit some of those options are viable (others aren't, the BBEG you described would not end up in a confined space),
Of course he would. A stronghold or fortress provides all kinds of advantages over just flying around in the open. The ability to ward and trap it, particularly, but there are dozens of other advantages as well. A well-defended stronghold is much more secure than no stronghold at all. The downside is that you can't always be flying 100' up if you are fighting enemies who have fought their way through your defenses and traps into your stronghold. Works best if the BBEG has something to defend -- like ongoing ritual preparations -- so he is less likely to run away and kill the PCs later with scry-and-fry.



There's also a lot more tactics melee cannot defend themselves against. Forcecage? Waves of exhaustion? Otto's irresistable dance? Are you going to give plot rewards that make them immune to all of those?
No, of course not, but the game isn't PvP in arenas. It's parties. If I want to play a melee type and at least one caster in the party has Mind Blank, then Irresistable Dance is no longer Irresistable. Horizon Walker can defend himself against both Forecage and Waves of Exhaustion, or various spells by the party casters can help out. And that's just core; there are plenty of defenses out of core (Fey Legacy, for one). But even beyond that, your question was not "can a melee type solo against the BBEG" -- I'm not arguing that. It was "who would want to play a melee type if the BBEG was smart?" Those are completely different questions. When you play the game, do the casters just look to glorify themselves, or do they look to use their magic so the party as a whole thrives (both in defeating challenges and in the players having fun)?

Edit: If you're saying "MDJ is bad because melee types need a Christmas Tree of magic items to do anything against an enemy caster," then isn't the better solution to introduce feats, skill tricks, and the like so that melee types don't need all those trinkets just to not be insta-pwned? Rather than ensuring that they have all those magic items and that those items are never endangered in any way?

dsmiles
2010-01-08, 12:07 PM
I hate gravity rules. Falling from orbit just should do more damage. I think it goes 5D4 fire damage and 20D6 damage. That means you could technically get 25 damage. Average of 82.5 damage. Which means most characters can jump from the moon (with a ring of jump) and land on the planet at level 10.

Aaaahhhh...the good ol' days...when falling damage inflicted a cumulative 1d6/10 feet. (10 feet = 1d6, 20 feet = 2d6+1d6, 30 feet = 3d6+2d6+1d6...200 ft was max damage at 20d6+19d6+...+1d6) You know, back when character death was the rule rather than the exception, and resurrection was rare enought that it was easier to roll a new character (3d6 in order).

Aldizog
2010-01-08, 12:25 PM
Aaaahhhh...the good ol' days...when falling damage inflicted a cumulative 1d6/10 feet. (10 feet = 1d6, 20 feet = 2d6+1d6, 30 feet = 3d6+2d6+1d6...200 ft was max damage at 20d6+19d6+...+1d6) You know, back when character death was the rule rather than the exception, and resurrection was rare enought that it was easier to roll a new character (3d6 in order).
When was that? The oldest set of rules I have is Moldvay Basic, which simply says "1d6 points of damage per 10' fallen."

Boci
2010-01-08, 12:32 PM
Edit: If you're saying "MDJ is bad because melee types need a Christmas Tree of magic items to do anything against an enemy caster," then isn't the better solution to introduce feats, skill tricks, and the like so that melee types don't need all those trinkets just to not be insta-pwned? Rather than ensuring that they have all those magic items and that those items are never endangered in any way?

Yes, that solution is far better. But which is easier, not using a single spell, or redisigning the melee classes? How many threads are there dedicated to doing the latter? The flame wars they often degenerate to show that implementing such a change is no easy task. Banning a single spell is.

Hal
2010-01-08, 12:38 PM
Negative levels. For me, nothing sucks the momentum out of a game than losing experience/levels that took weeks, maybe months, to attain. It's even worse if it's a one-sided loss (that is, only a small contingent of the party gets hit with it). Now you have some level 15 party running with one or two characters at level 10 . . . you'll notice a difference. Last time I dealt with it, it was a level 5 party, except my paladin got bolted back down to level two. Blaaaaaaaah . . .

Sliver
2010-01-08, 01:12 PM
Negative levels. For me, nothing sucks the momentum out of a game than losing experience/levels that took weeks, maybe months, to attain. It's even worse if it's a one-sided loss (that is, only a small contingent of the party gets hit with it). Now you have some level 15 party running with one or two characters at level 10 . . . you'll notice a difference. Last time I dealt with it, it was a level 5 party, except my paladin got bolted back down to level two. Blaaaaaaaah . . .

And the better XP gain didn't fix that? :smallconfused:

Blas_de_Lezo
2010-01-08, 01:18 PM
Stunning or Paralyzed, or anything that just passes on your turn, and you only have that idiot look, waiting for the cleric to heal you :smallannoyed:

9mm
2010-01-08, 01:25 PM
Bad Players in a game whose DM flat out tells you "you must be this competent to survive."

Also, my ability to twink better than everone else.

Vortling
2010-01-08, 01:39 PM
The savings throw mechanic in 4e. I never seem to save except when it doesn't really matter. "I save against the ongoing damage that I resist anyways but not the dazed? Great." I once spent an entire session either stunned or dominated, depending on which enemy managed to hit me that particular round. It was incredibly boring.

Thrawn183
2010-01-08, 03:00 PM
High will saves. I love failing will saves. It always makes for exceedingly fun and interesting fights.

Eldariel
2010-01-08, 03:03 PM
A second level fighter could. with 3 con bonus, and incredible luck, they could even walk away without a care. 20 from HD, 6 from con. 25 damage.

Also you can hold your breath for con score, and I have no clue how close the moon is since it depends on the world. However in some it probably isn't too far for that. Throw in necklace of adaptation or bottle of air, and suffocating isn't going to happen. Drowning/suffocating rules are a bit silly, but I don't mind them much.

Let's not forget that real humans have survived fall from an airborne aeroplane without a parachute. That's what, 10km? Granted, they've broken bones and so on, but they've been alive. Now, this doesn't happen almost ever, but it is possible. See Surviving Falls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_fall) here, for example. Point being, maximum freefall speed is not automatically lethal for a Human.

JaronK
2010-01-08, 03:32 PM
I hate gravity rules. Falling from orbit just should do more damage. I think it goes 5D4 fire damage and 20D6 damage. That means you could technically get 25 damage. Average of 82.5 damage. Which means most characters can jump from the moon (with a ring of jump) and land on the planet at level 10.

Actually, just the other day our group Necropolitan tank realized that with his 150+hp he should have no trouble dropping from any height, and asked to get a chance to be used as an Orbital Drop Strike Trooper.

We're planning on making it happen.

JaronK

Tyndmyr
2010-01-08, 04:23 PM
And the better XP gain didn't fix that? :smallconfused:

Oh yes...I would like to nominate annoying DMs who insist on flat xp awards for everyone as a bane.

Even worse, are those who reduce leveling up to fiat...Yay...now I have no idea of when I'll level, why Im behind the party, and I'll likely never catch up.

good_lookin_gus
2010-01-08, 04:56 PM
First: Homebrewed Fumble Charts

I'm not someone who normally believes in luck, but I'll be damned if I don't roll remarkably frequent natural 1s. My IRL group has always drafted percentile charts for ridiculous things to happen on natural 1s and 20s. The 20 charts had long been disproportionately more significant. Unfortunately, the pendulum chose to swing back for a campaign when I played a TWF Swordsage with ~8 attacks per round. A lot of annoying mishaps occurred, but the worst was knocking myself unconcious while fighting a construct, which somehow knew to perform a coup de grace:smallmad:

Second: PbP Games That Fall Apart Because One(1) Person Stops Posting

Now when it's the DM, sure. It sucks, but I understand. Losing Joe, the inessential jerkface, should hardly be a problem at all.