Gestalt Villain Question

[Beelzebub1111]

I was thinking of having a villain in my campaign be Gestalt in a non-gestalt game. I rationalized it by saying that he was once two people but forbidden magics fused them together, body, mind and soul. And now he's doing this ritual on others to make a powerful army the likes of which the world has never seen. My question is, how should I figure out his CR?

[Zincorium]

Eyeball it. Seriously.

A level 18 wizard and a level 18 ranger are not comparable threats to the party. Gestalt makes this possible range even wider. You can't really calculate it as a flat modifier.

Can you give the exact stats you're considering? You can probably get some consensus for a specific character's CR.

[Beelzebub1111]

I was thinking around level 15 either Fighter/Wizard, Fighter/Warlock, or maybe Artificer/Wizard. His minions would be levels 2-8 and would be Fighter/Wizards, Fighter/Clerics, and Fighter/Rogues, maybe a Sorcerer/Wizard or two. His lieutenants are a level 12 Warmage/Ranger and a Level 12 Rogue/Ninja.

[Zincorium]

I was thinking around level 15 either Fighter/Wizard, Fighter/Warlock, or maybe Artificer/Wizard. His minions would be levels 2-8 and would be Fighter/Wizards, Fighter/Clerics, and Fighter/Rogues, maybe a Sorcerer/Wizard or two. His lieutenants are a level 12 Warmage/Ranger and a Level 12 Rogue/Ninja.

The gap between a fighter//warlock (the double slash is a common convention for gestalt as opposed to multiclass) and a wizard//artificer is pretty big. Fighter warlock man can be dangerous if using eldritch chain or glaive, but has fairly limited options. I'd put it at CR 14- action economy is still going to work against him. Fighter//wizard is potentially higher if good spells are taken.

Archivist is generally not a good BBEG class. All of their abilities depend on creating and utilizing magical items- so their loot scales much faster than how dangerous they are.

On the lieutenants: warmage//ranger can blast, but is more or less a durable wizard with a lazy spell choice. Rogue//ninja is either completely meh or a huge threat depending on whether you're applying both sneak attack and sudden strike for damage. If I mistook what you were saying, and these are regular multiclass characters (which is the reason for the // convention), the warmage/ranger is going to be a pushover.

The mooks are mostly irrelevant unless in huge numbers and/or close to the party's level.

[Duke of URL]

Since the gestalt guidelines say that gestalt characters can take on CR+1 creatures (CR+2 if they rely on special abilities), I'd make the BBEG's CR equal ECL+1, maybe ECL+2 depending on how optimized and synergistic it is.

[2xMachina]

Make them have permanent-Schism on too, since it's 2 person in 1 anyway.

[Beelzebub1111]

The gap between a fighter//warlock (the double slash is a common convention for gestalt as opposed to multiclass) and a wizard//artificer is pretty big. Fighter warlock man can be dangerous if using eldritch chain or glaive, but has fairly limited options. I'd put it at CR 14- action economy is still going to work against him. Fighter//wizard is potentially higher if good spells are taken.
Makes sense, I'll take that into consideration



Archivist is generally not a good BBEG class. All of their abilities depend on creating and utilizing magical items- so their loot scales much faster than how dangerous they are.
Alright then, that makes sense...if you mean artificer rather than archivist



On the lieutenants: warmage//ranger can blast, but is more or less a durable wizard with a lazy spell choice. Rogue//ninja is either completely meh or a huge threat depending on whether you're applying both sneak attack and sudden strike for damage.
The Lieutenants aren't set in stone, though. I would say that sneak attack and sudden strike double up.


If I mistook what you were saying, and these are regular multiclass characters (which is the reason for the // convention), the warmage/ranger is going to be a pushover.

No, you are right I just didn't know the // convention


The mooks are mostly irrelevant unless in huge numbers and/or close to the party's level.
The mooks will be in decidedly large numbers.


Make them have permanent-Schism on too, since it's 2 person in 1 anyway.
Not really, the way the ritual works, is that they litterally become one person with the best attributes of both, the best facets of their personality while removing the negatives. I'm going to roll the stat-lines each of the two characters to be fused separately (4d6 drop lowest for bbeg and lieutenants. 3d6 for mooks.) then take the best of each and put them together. they are litterally the best aspects of two people fused together to make a "superman"

[Prime32]

The problem with gestalt characters is that they even if they have two sets of spells they can't (normally) cast both in one turn. Either find a way to get extra actions or put active abilities (like spells) on one side and passive abilities (like large Hit Dice and immunities) on the other. Try to get some ability score synergy though.

A swiftblade build could be nasty.

Wildshape rangers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) can cast spells from the other side of the gestalt if they have Natural Spell, and psionics don't have components so you can use those anyway. Maybe Wildshape ranger X//Monk 2/Psychic warrior (X-2) with the Tashalatora feat? (and some wildshape-improving PrCs)

[Kylarra]

Make one side a factotum! Then moderate your use of extra actions to +1/turn or just enough to mitigate the action economy that the party has over your usual BBEG.

[Beelzebub1111]

I would like to stay away from Tome of Battle and...probably Magic of Incarnum. I have a lot of NPCs to make, and I'd like to keep it simple, just core and the completes.

[Kylarra]

I would like to stay away from Tome of Battle and...probably Magic of Incarnum. I have a lot of NPCs to make, and I'd like to keep it simple, just core and the completes.Well, to keep things simple, what you should do is have a base class and a support class. Your base class is what you want to primarily define the character's abilities and tendencies. The secondary class should be picked to shore up some of the weaknesses, HD, saves, skills, and provide passive abilities.

I'd still recommend factotum as the second half of the BBEG's gestalt though, it provides a nice middling baseline of abilties, making it ideal to support almost any other class.

[Glimbur]

Well, to keep things simple, what you should do is have a base class and a support class. Your base class is what you want to primarily define the character's abilities and tendencies. The secondary class should be picked to shore up some of the weaknesses, HD, saves, skills, and provide passive abilities.

Cleric//Monk or Druid//Monk are solid for an active and a passive. Ranger//Rogue can be interesting for TWF with sneak attack and full BAB. Fighter helps wizard some, but it's not very flashy about it.

[Gensh]

There's always the classic monk//wizard. Since the monk's abilities pretty much focus on keeping itself alive by overcoming a normal person's limitations, it keeps the wizard from being squishy and fits the fluff too.

[deuxhero]

Factotum also helps as the biggest weakness of a single boss against a party is lack of actions.

[Beelzebub1111]

I think I'm going to go with the Warlock//Fighter as the...Ur-gestalt, I think would be the best describing word. Warlock being the main and fighter being the "enhancer" class. I think I'll change ranger//warmage with ranger//wizard. and going with Barbarian//Rogue for the other lieutenant.

[noiadodh]

if the BBEG is at least 14th level, make him a swiftblade

3.0 haste is THAT good

[JaronK]

Warlock//Fighter isn't even going to be as nasty as a well made Wizard, so the CR shouldn't be too high there.

JaronK

[grautry]

A level 18 wizard and a level 18 ranger are not comparable threats to the party. Gestalt makes this possible range even wider. You can't really calculate it as a flat modifier.

^ Agreed.

But, generally speaking I'd start at the level of the character.

If one side has a lot of passive bonuses and/or defenses, that's probably worth 1 CR.
If the character can abuse action economy I'd add 2 CR. Maybe even 3-4 CR if you can do it heavily(like say, a Factotum with, oh, 50 Inspiration points going supernova).
Depending on the optimization and synergy between the classes, you can get a very wide range of challenges. But for the sake of an argument, let's say that this could be worth anywhere from -3(no synergy, sucky classes) to 3 CR(very, very awesome).

Still, this is obviously a very rough guide. The most important thing to consider is whether he can abuse action economy. If yes, then it's a far bigger challenge than its level would indicate. If no, then gestalting the character won't make him a much bigger threat.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I tend to avoid any BBEG with Archivist or Wizard levels, because I don't want the party getting monty-hauled with a spellbook like that.

So, having said that... Monk//Sorcerer with Ascetic Mage feat to use Charisma for AC bonus would do well.

Paladin (one of the other alignment variants)//Sorcerer/Prc is a damn good choice. Casting stat to all saves. In fact, Pal2/Monk...//Sorcerer would be very obnoxious. Very resistant to Save or Loose effects, harder to hit in melee combat, and hits surprisingly hard when he's not tossing around flaming balls of doom. Use spellcasting prestige class to flavor Sorcerer side.

For mooks...

Beguiler//Cleric. These are the buff and support guys. Maybe 1 out of every group is this guy. What does he do? Well, half his slots are already used on buffs for the rest of the group. Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestments, Shield of Faith, with the right domains you can also get Barkskin for natural armor. If the party likes using Death effects, toss some Death Wards in there. Haste is the first thing that comes out of their mouth during combat to make mooks extra nasty.

Barbarian//Wildshape ranger/MoMF. Morphs into a creature, then eats your face. Pre-design the forms so you don't have to deal with it mid-fight.

Fighter//Monk. Yea, each one, individually, suck. Together? Well, not as powerful as many gestalt combinations, but it does make for a very powerful mook. Lots of combat options, lots of resistances, lots of 'no' buttons. And hey, they're mooks anyways, right? They're supposed to go down quicker than Uncle Bob's Moonshine.

Warmage//Barbarian. This is your artillery support, blasting the heck out of the PC's with lots and lots of AE damage. Flashy, but not too dangerous. Oh, go ahead and try to close with him if you want... he's got a Greatsword and Shock Trooper to make you regret that decision.

Rogue//Ranger. Your flanker/tracker/skillmonkey mooks. They'll be the ones tracking the PC's and setting up traps, ambushes, and other unpleasant surprises. Not to mention coordinating all the other guys so they know when the best time is to come charging in...

Druid//Monk is probably too powerful for a 'mook'... but a Kung Fu Panda is nothing to sneeze at. If they steamroll other things, have this Kung Fu Dire Bear ready to eat their face off.