Snowball world [Community Worldbuilding Project] [Archive]

Owrtho

2010-01-06, 06:43 PM

I'd suggest it was always a snow world (at least for as long as anyone knows). However, thats not to say it's always been as bad. Perhaps it was common use to use spells and enchantments to keep areas warmer and mostly free of snow, however recently a widespread phenomenon has started not only causing all those enchantments to fail, but actually increase the cold and snow.
I'd also suggest some places (perhaps termed oases) that for some reason naturally lack snow or have somewhat large hot springs heating the area.

As for locations of interest, I'd suggest a place usually located in a remote region called the Phantom Oasis (at least as a temporary name), that is a mythical oasis that can be seen from a distance, but rarely ever reached, mainly due to it not actually being tied fully to the normal world. It is in fact somewhat of a pocket dimension or the like, either natural or artificial that nonetheless maintains firm enough ties to the normal world to allow easy travel between the two. It does however constantly change its location relative to the world.
It might also be the source of the failing enchantments, having recently either started growing, or for reasons unknown begun suffering from snow, it has started targeting the most commonly used enchantments to alleviate the weather and replace their alleviated weather with the clod and snow that it has (which causes the location to suffer around twice as bad as normal).
This location may also be the actual reason for the place being a snow world if it did this on a rather more widespread scale sometime in the distant past.

Owrtho

BRC

2010-01-06, 07:07 PM

I imagine Dwarves being the dominant race, living in well guarded cities, with the biggest ones being built around Volcanoes. If we are going on thee "apocolypse" theory, elves would be all but gone. Their forest homes dieing in the eternal winter, and their philosophies being inconsistant with killing fuzzy things to make warm clothing. By this point, most elves are displaced wanderers, living in other societies. Ironically enough, Half-elves had already been established in societies, and worked as intermediaries. Today, Half-elves actually outnumber fullblood elves.
Humans, ever adaptable, have fulfilled a vital role in civilized life. The dwarves are generally very comfortable in their cities, and prefer to stay there. So when people need to venture between the warm mountainhomes, humans generally get the job. The Dwarves want as much space between them and the Winter as possible, so Humans have a whole intermediary society based on supporting the Dwarves. Humans live in the colder outer tunnels, and in exchange they handle all the jobs the Dwarves don't want to do.

Vadin

2010-01-06, 07:23 PM

The truth: 2,000 years ago, the world was a standard fantasy setting that was just on the verge of unlocking the secrets of machinery and revolutionizing the way the world worked.
The established order feared this. If small nations could be as powerful as the large and old ones, everything would change! And so an assemblage of powerful kings and a trusted council of advisors devised a spell that would stop the world from changing, ensuring that they and their lines would remain in power forever.
The gods had other plans. As the first syllable of the spell was uttered, all involved were slain and the greatest change of all thrown over the world- SNOW! Summer was replaced with a short spring and autumn, spring and autumn were replaced with winter, and winter was replaced with a period of bitter, icy cold and dark.

Since then the races and kingdoms have fractured and come together in so many different combinations that the original history has been all but lost- it remains in a number of variations of a creation myth with gods taking the place of those who fought change, those who were being stopped, and those who went about punishing the old power (the typical format is one god is being unfairly persecuted by its very different relatives and their allies, and they plan to wipe the unusual god out completely while casting the world in death and flames, and members of the rival divine lineage give the out-of-place god protection and stop the other pantheon's plan by countering their fire with ice on which life could still exist).

Sound good for an origin story and distorted history of what really happened?

Owrtho

2010-01-06, 08:12 PM

I imagine Dwarves being the dominant race, living in well guarded cities, with the biggest ones being built around Volcanoes. If we are going on thee "apocolypse" theory

That would likely only be if the snow is a recent thing, if we go with the theory it has always been such (in modern memory), then likely many groups and creatures would be adapted to living out in the cold. The dwarves would likely then just be recluses who rarely are seen outside their volcanic homes.

As for the possible origin story, it could work. But I'd think it would be better if the date were pushed back a good bit further.

Owrtho

The Tygre

2010-01-06, 08:20 PM

I like both those ideas:smallsmile: are the White Dragons the ones who started the apocalypse or did they just take advantage of the situation?

Could be either. I imagined them as beginning it, though. See, the way I see it is that the White got sick of being the runts of the litter dragon-wise. So long time ago, they started cloistering up in the north, breeding half-dragons, kobolds, white spawn of Tiamat, and whatever else. Some deals were made with necromancers, hence undead yeti army, as well as other unsavory characters like Mephistopheles, Kostchtchie , and/or Baba Yaga. When the moment was right, they went nuts. Whether that was after some other apocalypse or when the world was in some other crisis is debatable.

Vadin

2010-01-06, 08:30 PM

White dragons taking over as the scariest dragons around makes sense, but undead yeti army? That...it sounds like an army of robot pirate ninjas. Rather nonsensical, I must say. I mean, why not just use yetis? Also, when you say yeti, do you mean a rare and elusive primate adapted to life in icy mountains, or an intelligent monster species that lives in frozen areas and intentionally makes itself difficult to find (I ask because its never clear which end of the realism-spectrum people put yetis at)?

The Tygre

2010-01-06, 08:57 PM

kopout

2010-01-06, 09:45 PM

I think it should come off.

mr.fizzypop

2010-01-06, 10:57 PM

DIRE PENGUINS!!!!

Anyway, a snow setting would also introduce new equipment like snow skis and ice picks. Also maybe a ton-ton like species for fast travel?

I was also thinking you could have the elves(or another race) have retrogressed back to people like Inuit. They could be well known primitive hunters to the north. Famous for their arctic rangers and druids.
And what of the gnomes or halflings? Theres been no mention of them yet.

Latronis

2010-01-06, 11:10 PM

and it must include The Frigid Bitch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133267) :smallbiggrin:

Vadin

2010-01-06, 11:50 PM

This could take two directions: silliness and frivolity and a lot of humor, or a complex and overthought setting with original content and new and interesting creations. Which do we choose?

Owrtho

2010-01-07, 12:48 AM

I'd vote for the latter. Also I'm still of the mind that the snow shouldn't be from some kind of apocalyptic event, but rather just be the way the setting is.

Owrtho

The Tygre

2010-01-07, 01:27 AM

This could take two directions: silliness and frivolity and a lot of humor, or a complex and overthought setting with original content and new and interesting creations. Which do we choose?

Aye, the latter. I want to see this actually go somewhere.

BRC

2010-01-07, 01:51 AM

Well, if the setting has always been this cold, I'm imagining all societies fall into either subterranean agrarian societies or nomadic surface dwellers. Dwarves, gnomes, kobolds, and goblinoids are the first type, Elves, Halflings, and Orcs are the second. Humans are split about 50/50, or serving as intermediaries between the two groups.

There may be some permanent surface communities, but they are either based around magic, or are made up of some race that is naturally resistant to the cold. On the surface powerful cold resistant creatures like white dragons and Frost Giants are major movers and shakers. Often one will set themselves up as an Ice Tyrant, claiming stake to a section of the tundra, and attempting to gather a horde of minions. Many surface dwellers make deals with Ice Tyrants. A standard deal is that a group of surface dwellers will be allowed to live, work, and hunt, on the tyrant's territory, in exchange they have to do some work for the Tyrant. Usually, this work is fighting, often against the minions of another Tyrant. Some tyrants have mines they need laborers to toil in, some are too lazy to do their own hunting and want their people to bring them food (one advantage of the cold is that meat dosn't spoil as easily).
Though the classic image of the Ice Tyrant is that of a greedy, capricious overlord, they are not all that way. Some of them are local leaders who seek power in order to protect their people from the whims of a tyrant with fewer scruples. Or they are disinterested in ruling, like a wizard living in a frozen tower, merely staking a claim in order to prevent other tyrants from interrupting their work.

Tackyhillbillu

2010-01-07, 02:20 AM

I guess I might as well throw out another origin story. This one is a bit less Apocalypse, and more just a slow grinding down.

"In the times of antiquity, the world was green and warm. The surface was kind, and all knew peace and plenty. In the sky, there shone the Flame Imperishable, the Sun. The various peoples grew and multiplied. But time went on, and the Flame began to dim. It was slow, and went without being noticed. But eventually, it became obvious to all. The people prayed to their gods, and the answer they got was strange. Not even the gods knew what was happening. The Flame Imperishable was dimming. Such a thing was impossible.

Still more it dimmed. And the snows came forth from their places in the far north, and the mountain fastness, and claimed the land. Still it dimmed. The people died, their crops refusing to grow. And dimmer it grow.

The end is coming now. The wise give the Flame a few more years, at most. Then the world will utterly fall into darkness, and snow will conquer all.

---

Dwarves- The people least effected by this. They have collected in their mountain fastnesses. Early on, they took refugees, but several Mountain Holds were overwhelemed, and the Dwarves shut their doors. Now it is rare for anyone to see a Dwarf outside their Mountain Fastnesses. The Dwarves have taken to worshipping the Gods of Darkness and Cold, wanting to bring the ending of the sun quickly. If the Surface was extniguished, they would be the undisputed kings.

Elves- Almost all dead. They consumed themselves, laying protections over the Forests that were their home. These Trees stand, green and fresh as ever, serving as markers for those that fell to protect them. Those Elves that yet live are half insane, feral people, living in the preserved trees, Eternal Guardians of their Civilizations one lasting marker.

Gnomes- The Gnomes are one of the bright spots of the World. Their Technology has protected them, dwelling in great spheres of metal. There they plan their attempt to cease the dimming, and save the World. Their skill at Magic and Technology keeps the world bright and green. But even their prowess fails. The energy required to keep their homes warm grows everyday, and their ability to provide it fails.

Halflings- The only people to live unprotected on the Surface. The Halflings are widely regarded as mad. They dig their homes deep into the ground, below the Ice. They wear great furs all the time, and live as semi-nomadic Hunters and Gatherers, following game round the world. Their numbers shrink as well. Less Game, less light, less everything.

Humans- They are refugees, living where ever they can find shelter. They were the single race the gambled everything on their gods saving them, adding together all of their power in one gamble on refreshing the Flame. The Human's failed, and now are a broken people. The largest number dwell with the Dwarves, as second class citizens, but they can be found among all the peoples, eking out a miserable living.

---

One thing to remember is that living on ice is hard. It isn't just the Cold, though that is deadly. No food, no energy, moving is nearly impossible. To find a more difficult territory to live in then the Ice requires leaving the Earth.

A question, will there be Open Water? The vast majority of Ice Dwelling species feed off fish and such, because the Ocean is the only real source of food. But Open Water will be very hard to explain in a world that is completely Ice Locked.

Owrtho

2010-01-07, 02:25 AM

Well, if the setting has always been this cold, I'm imagining all societies fall into either subterranean agrarian societies or nomadic surface dwellers. Dwarves, gnomes, kobolds, and goblinoids are the first type, Elves, Halflings, and Orcs are the second. Humans are split about 50/50, or serving as intermediaries between the two groups.

If thats the case, I could actually see there being some permanent towns though with varying populations. Maybe it is somewhat common for certain locations on the rout the nomadic groups follow to make permanent settlement structures, they they then move between. There would of course be some who stayed, but it would allow for sturdy buildings that could withstand the weather and keep out the cold to be regularly had.
I would however think that a cold setting might be more likely to have permanent settlements due to the fact that it is easier to make warm stationary abodes and pool and gather resources in permanent settlements than mobile ones.

Edit:That second origin story sounds rather like the coming of an apocolypse...
Also, odds are that even if there is ice most places, the oceans wouldn't be completely frozen over. I don't particularly feel like going into all the science, but it would be for the same reason that the ocean doesn't freeze over normally.

Owrtho

BRC

2010-01-07, 02:42 AM

If thats the case, I could actually see there being some permanent towns though with varying populations. Maybe it is somewhat common for certain locations on the rout the nomadic groups follow to make permanent settlement structures, they they then move between. There would of course be some who stayed, but it would allow for sturdy buildings that could withstand the weather and keep out the cold to be regularly had.
I would however think that a cold setting might be more likely to have permanent settlements due to the fact that it is easier to make warm stationary abodes and pool and gather resources in permanent settlements than mobile ones.

Owrtho
Longhouses and roundhouses. Clans stay there for a season, often these stays are arranged ahead of time in great Clanmeets. The payment a clan makes for staying in these houses is their upkeep.

A House can be any sort of structure, or a collection of structures. Usually it's a few Longhouses or Roundhouses built out of wood, but sometimes it's a massive structure made of stone, or a series of caves, or even an area kept warm by the presence of powerful magic. The only thing all Houses have in common is that a clan could survive living there for an extended period of time. Most Houses have access to fresh water and a food supply (Local herds mainly), some have other perks, like a hot spring, or better fortifications in case of attack, or even magical effects.

It should be noted that, amongst the nomadic clans, damaging one of these houses, or staying there without having arranged it at a Clanmeet, is one of the worst crimes that can be committed. If a clan has been found to use a House without keeping it in repair, try to drive another clan out of a House, or, worst of all, intentionally destroy a house, the clan will often be considered "Coldbanished". They will be driven from Clanmeets, they can be forced out of houses, and nobody will want to deal with them. Even in the most brutal interclan wars, nobody wants to do any damage to a House that they cannot repair. Sometimes a House is accidentally damaged in the course of battle, and both sides have been known to stop fighting and immediately begin repairs.

Clanmeets occur every couple years, always during the warm season. They are a time for all sorts of trade, but the big thing is arranging who gets what houses. Clans will give up quite a bit in order to get a reservation at one of the better Houses. Every clan at a Meet is under a Truce, breaking the Truce can get you Coldbanished. Problems between two clans that cannot be settled peacefully are handled by ritual single combat.

Edit: Breaking the Truce isn't you getting mad and punching some guy, or even murdering provided justice is served. This more like an entire clan pulling out weapons and attacking another during the meet.

Owrtho

2010-01-07, 02:48 AM

I would expect the part about not being allowed to stay there without prior arrangement would have exceptions for extreme circumstances and the like.

Owrtho

BRC

2010-01-07, 02:55 AM

I would expect the part about not being allowed to stay there without prior arrangement would have exceptions for extreme circumstances and the like.

Owrtho
Oh yeah, if you're trapped in a blizzard and you run across an unclaimed house (or a claimed one that can squeeze you in for a couple days), feel free to stick around till the weather clears up. Fought off frost giants, crash at the longhouse until your warriors are healed up enough to get back on the road. But you don't stay any longer than you have to. The reason for this is that if you are staying there when you arn't supposed to, and another clan, in trouble and needing a place to stay, heads towards a House they think should be unoccupied only to find you there, then there is a major problem.
Edit: By the way, if you are in a House, and a wandering clan needs help, it's expected that you squeeze them in if you can, at least for a couple days. They will owe you a favor, and if you're actively at war with them you don't need to let them in.

Owrtho

2010-01-07, 03:09 AM

BRC

2010-01-07, 03:22 AM

I'd suggest a group known as the Caretakers. The Caretakers members come from all the clans and are chosen from worthy, fit members. They have the job of traveling to the various Houses in small groups and ensuring they are in good repair and stocked. Caretakers are chosen during the Clanmeets and retain the position until the next one, at which time they may opt to continue with the position (provided they did their job properly), or return to their clan until the next Clanmeet. Being a Caretaker imparts some privileges, and is generally considered an honored position, even among other clans. As such clan aggressions are rarely applied to them.

Owrtho
Intentionally Killing Caretakers without bringing those responsible to justice= Nice Way to get coldbanished. Even the cruelist Ice Tyrant who is at war with the local clans has compunctions about destroying Houses and hunting down Caretakers (usually because nomadic clans make up a good portion of their forces as well)

Vadin

2010-01-07, 01:35 PM

I like all this talk of clans and icy tyrants (it really is an excellent start).

Clans, though, aren't solely halfling, yes? I've always found mono-race groups to be a little boring unless there's adequate justification for it. I can see some clans being mostly or completely composed of one race, but all nomad groups who are a part of this structure being the same race?

Halfling/Merchant Clans: Smaller and eat less food, so they have lower overhead costs (non-halfling merchant clans tend to have spellcasters to supplement their supplies). They move about typically to make a profit on selling excess food and to trade away luxury goods like rare minerals and high-quality furs.
Dwarven/Builder Clans: With an instinct for good stonework or generations of masonry secrets, they are the furthest from the other clans and often build new Houses while staying in old ones (thus making them primarily responsible for turning one building into ten and one House into a small town with a semi-permanent population).
Orc/Human/Warrior Clans: These clans try and avoid getting personally involved in conflicts and instead hire themselves out to ice tyrants and warring clans as extra warriors. When fighting against clans, they are careful to use only blunt weapons so as not to take the life of someone who could be a potential client. Many see themselves as peace keepers and have rich shamanistic traditions, while others simply love fighting and would be doing what they do for fun if not profit.
Dragonborn/Scribe Clans: Though few in number, they wield lots of political power. These clans have permanently settled in Houses near where the Clanmeetings take place and aren't allowed to engage in warfare or be attacked. They get a small cut of the House bids in addition to guaranteed houses, and their only expected responsibilities are to manage the bids for whatever region they're assigned to and to keep track of the births, deaths, and marriages for the clans housed in that region.

Clans have been known to occasionally take in 'monsters' who seek their help, and so it isn't unheard of for a master bugbear craftsman to lead a Builder clan otherwise composed of mostly dwarves, or for a centuries old illithid to live alongside elves and dragonborn in a Scribe clan.

BRC

2010-01-07, 01:57 PM

I imagine a variety of different races would be part of Semi-nomadic clans.

The way I imagine it, a group of clans that live in a territory are part of a Nation. a Nation is not a single national entity, just a group of clans who have a territory and a number of Houses. Clanmeets are the only time a Nation comes together. Most Nations are simply a collection of Clans that share territory, but some Nations are ruled by an Ice Tyrant. Some Ice Tyrants let the Clanmeet system work, but most take over it's role, taking control of the House system, giving out the best Houses to the clans they favor.

The image of a Clan is a nomadic hunter-gather society, most are monoracial (not most types, you could have a clan of Orcs that functions much like a clan of halflings), but not all are like that. Some clans are magical in nature, like a mobile wizards university. Some carry only what fits in a backpack, others have entire fleets of wagons, or tame mammoths. Some are defended by barbaric warriors and barely tamed beasts, others by wizards and summoned or bound creatures, others by teams of armored Knights on Mooseback.

As I said, most clans are Monoracial, since most are not big enough to keep two seperate populations going without running into inbreeding issues. "Mongrel Clans", consisting of two races that can interbreed (Like Humans and Elves, with a sizeable Half-elf population) do exist and won't raise any eyebrows though. There are also "Recruiting Clans", which, rather than relying on reproduction for new members, instead recruits at the Clanmeets. Theses clans often have a specific purpose, like a magical academy, or a religious organization.

Vadin

2010-01-07, 02:45 PM

I like it.

There should be a central location for the clanmeet, and this should be where a clan whose sole purpose is to oversee the clanmeets should live. A historian clan, they keep detailed records of clan population, who bid how much for which houses, and what notable events have happened for each clan since the last clanmeet.

On mixed clans, human/orc clans are as common as orc clans, and human/elf clans are as common as elf clans (if not actually more common as pure elven birth rates are low). Elves in this setting should also have a somewhat less immortal lifespan to avoid the 'they live forever...why don't they rule everything?' problem. Say...around 150 years? So they live almost twice as long as the oldest humans- long enough to be very very old, but not so long that they'd be able to hole up and live their immortal lives totally out of the touch of the cold.

As far as races are concerned, we've agreed on some of the standard fantasy races:

Humans
Orcs
Elves
Dwarves
Halflings

Some others we might want to consider because they're cool as standard races:
Shifters
Formians (ant-people that live alongside volcanos and in underground warrens and might help service the clans)
For the love of Lolth, not Drow or any of the other elven variations
Goliaths (giant descended humans who are now a distinct race)
Genasi (elemental descended humans who are now a distinct race)
Dragonborn (dragon descended humans who are now a distinct race)

BRC

2010-01-07, 02:55 PM

Maybe each Free Nation (That is, one not ruled by an Ice Tyrant) has a Council of Elders that stays in a single House (the one that the Clanmeet takes place at) year round, organizes the Clanmeets, runs the bidding, keeps track of the Nation's history, settles big inter-clan disputes (when old-fashioned warfare isn't an option), chooses and runs the Caretakers, ect.

Of course, if the nation is ruled by an Ice Tyrant, they generally handle all that.

Eerie

2010-01-07, 03:19 PM

There are lots of unanswered questions about this world.

Are the oceans completely covered with ice, or are there permanent/seasonal ice-free zones?

What is the average temperature? There is a world of difference between -5C and -50C.

How the biosphere works, anyway? If it is always below zero on the surface, there will be no trees, and, actually, no life at all. You`ll get something like the icy moons of Jupiter, with oxygen produced by algae under the ice.

Vadin

2010-01-07, 03:39 PM

Well...magic and bah-humbug.

There are a few areas of seasonal tundra that allow big frozen forests to grow and the oceans are clear and the average temperature is between 0 and -30 degrees, with most of the world around -5 (cold and frozen, but livable).

@BRC: That sounds good, as long as there's also a regular meeting of representatives from each of the Nations. The idea of a continent-wide pilgrimage to converge on a single point and compare notes and trade information is pretty cool.

BRC

2010-01-07, 03:50 PM

@BRC: That sounds good, as long as there's also a regular meeting of representatives from each of the Nations. The idea of a continent-wide pilgrimage to converge on a single point and compare notes and trade information is pretty cool.
Call it the Great Meet.

Clanmeets vary from nation to nation, but usually it's every 3-5 years. The Great Meet happens every 50 years, in a great House protected by powerful magic.

Vadin

2010-01-07, 04:05 PM

Owrtho

2010-01-07, 05:20 PM

I'd expect in most cases the Tyrants are treated as just a particularly powerful clan, rather than an all powerful one.
On the issue of races, the Genasi might make the most sense (ice ones at least), followed by the Goliaths and Dragonborn.
Would we possibly want to come up with a custom race of some type?

Also, just thought I'd mention that some arctic gear and equipment can be found in the Frostburn book
And it seems that the thread has been successfully shifted from a postapocalyptic bent.
Owrtho

BRC

2010-01-07, 05:26 PM

It should be noted that the Clan system primarily applies to those races that cannot survive in the Cold. Naturally cold resistant races have no need for the Houses, or the Clans, they still deal with them though, and some take part in the Clan system anyway. Their focus is less on what House they get, and more on what resources are available there.

kopout

2010-01-07, 05:51 PM

For a special race how about the Anouki from the DS legend of Zelda games?
http://www.zeldauniverse.net/images/games/ph/characters/anouki.png
penguin-reindeer-dwarfs with flaky personalities :smallbiggrin:

The Tygre

2010-01-07, 05:56 PM

I was actually thinking about the Underdark of this world last night. My general thoughts are that things aren't much different. Drow, Duergar, Derro, Svirfniblin; what do they care that the surface is covered in ice? Half of them don't even know what ice -is-. Still, it's provided them all with greater motivation not to leave home. The only race that seems really affected are the Illithid. Things were going so well for them; the sun was disappearing, and they were just about to go up there and conquer the world. Now, now everything's cold. And since Illithid have to wear rubber wet-suits just to keep control of the slime constantly oozing off of them, the cold their friend is not. It's possible Illithid actually caused the apocalypse, and maybe they're now looking for a way to warm up the world.

Also, two words; War smilodon. Ooh! Or better yet, Were-smilodon!

BRC

2010-01-07, 06:47 PM

Are we going with "The way it is" instead of "heat death apocolypse", or is it that the apocolypse is slow enough that people aren't noticing.

kopout

2010-01-07, 07:04 PM

"The way it is" more work has been done on that option than the other. But feel free to have it be getting worse or even be thawing for the first time.

OrangeQuarter

2010-01-07, 07:45 PM

I really have to support the idea of Dragonborn being a very powerful race in this setting. Just think about it: A group of people who can produce their own heat. :smallamused: Even if they're not very powerful, they would be very useful minor members of clans; emergency firestarters. Maybe even wellpaid mercenaries, only tolerated for their natural connection to heat.

On the subject of dwarves: I was wondering if it might be more interesting to lack an extensive system of underground tunnels? Maybe the dwarves were forced out onto the surface, because, lacking an outside food source, they had to use up almost all of their tunnels growing fungi for food? I almost see dwarves as being displaced up onto the surface, and being very hostile for surrounding groups, use brute force and ancient technologies to claim new mountains for settlement. DnD age Imperialists. Though, the question of why they didn't just dig more tunnels is pressing...

Could be that an Underdark does exist, and considering the possibility of it having been an apocalypse (Or, the underdark being a relatively new discovery) many races tried to move to the relatively warm underground tunnels, inciting a mass movement towards defense and reliation; Native Americans that won, basically.

Desmond Tiny

2010-01-07, 08:11 PM

What if ilithids can use their psionic prrowess to create fire. They act as a particullarly powerful Tyrant which demand sacrifices every once in a while to eat. Ilithids generally work as a community. Also undead would be immune to the freezing. Some liches or vampires could have a ritual to make someone undead and thus not need to find food or shelter. Becoming undead would actually be a desirable quality and they would be respected and common rather than feared. Liches or vampires ussually sell this service for a few years of servitude as an indentured servant.

Vadin

2010-01-07, 10:35 PM

What if ilithids can use their psionic prrowess to create fire.

I don't know why they wouldn't be able to do that. I mean, energy ray is a first level power that costs 1 pp.

The Tygre

2010-01-07, 11:13 PM

Owrtho

2010-01-07, 11:30 PM

Becoming undead would actually be a desirable quality and they would be respected and common rather than feared.

Undeath isn't an abomination! It's a way of... life?

Owrtho

Milskidasith

2010-01-07, 11:41 PM

At every Great Meet, each clan should have the opportunity to bid on the which clan gets to live in the Central House. The benefit? They get a small percentage of all bids on National Houses. The cost? All the National House leaders get to split up the winning bid on the Great House.

A simplification-
There are several levels of meeting: Great Meet, National Clanmeet, Regional Clanmeet.

At the Regional Clanmeet, the clans from a given region within a Nation meet to bid on which houses in the Region they want.
At the National Clanmeet, clans can bid to move to a different Region in the Nation (typically they are also required to build a new House). Clans also bid on who will get to oversee their Regional Clanmeet.
At the Great Meet, several clans can, together, bid to move to a different Nation provided they can prove that they have the means to build enough Houses for themselves. Clans also bid on who will get to oversee their National Clanmeet and who will get to live in the Great House and oversee the next Great Meet.

Overseers get a portion of all successful bids that happen while they're overseers and they are exempted from engaging in or being involved in any clan disputes.

Ice Tyrants and their domains are considered clans whose Houses can't be bought but who can buy Houses as long as they stay on good terms with the local clans. They typically don't buy Houses, but they might if they're raising an army or if they're looking to pay back a mercenary clan and gain their favor.

I think you are taking the concept of houses too literally... houses, in this case, especially with the capitalization, typically refers to a noble family and their underlings (House Milski, House Vadin.)

Honestly, I can see the benefits of the Great Meet, and it makes sense, but "bidding" on Houses makes it seem as if you think of these houses literally, which is just weird, especially since the people are nomadic. Nomads + houses, especially with a bidding war for them, just doesn't make sense. Now, nomads with houses representing families within a clan makes sense, although only big clans could really sustain multiple independent houses (by definition, being in the same clan they would be somewhat interdependent.)

So what I see it as is something like this:

Small clans really don't have any houses. If they have a strong ruling member, they might be "House *leader's name" but that's mostly an honorary title. Small clans could still be useful, of course, and perhaps even stronger than individual houses in larger clans, but they simply aren't big enough to support separate houses. Sometimes, clans without houses can grow to the size where they could support multiple different houses with their own independence, but do not have multiple houses, but this is rare because larger clans generally are self sufficient enough that everybody is not directly related to everybody else's survival, and people, as instinct, form distinctive groups to stay with.

Larger clans have separate houses, each of which worked together, to a greater or lesser degree, but have at least some form of independence from each other, although they would band together in times of need. As an example where the houses would work together mostly all the time, the wizards clan would work together to survive all the time, but various specialists would be houses under a master wizard of each school.

For an example where the houses are used for social status, but everybody (mostly) worked for the common good (with power being a strong secondary goal), a sorcerous clan would have houses based on the dragon they were descended from, sticking together but using houses as a social title (Being descended from a legendary great wyrm ice dragon clearly puts you ahead in social status from being descended from a young and later slain red dragon, for instance.).

For a final example of a clan that's practically at war with itself between houses, only hating outsiders more, you could have a clan that staked out a huge swathe of land underneath multiple warlords in the mountains, with only two or three entrances into the area. The races of the clan would be varied, and in fact races that hate each other are in the area (Giants and dwarves, gnomes and kobolds, whatever you choose.) They are barely a clan, frequently warring against each other, but because of their unique geographical position it is nearly impossible for any one faction to gain enough of an advantage over another to kill each other off. The reason they work together at times is also based on geography; if outsiders were to come in, they all band together in order to fight them off, before devolving back into their civil war.

I think that makes a lot more sense than having nomads bidding on property every 50 years.

Owrtho

2010-01-07, 11:57 PM

The Tygre

2010-01-08, 12:39 AM

All this talk of houses means that domestic Fey like Domovoi and Brownies are going to play a very important role in this world, I see.

Milskidasith

2010-01-08, 12:40 AM

No, the Houses have from conception been literal buildings, or more specifically more like small towns. They're made as way-stations that the clans stay at between traveling. They do such because temporary portable shelter is usually not enough to protect against the harsh weather for long periods. The bidding is for the right to use a given house, and to make sure that the clans know who is where so that you don't end up with multiple clans all planning to use the same one at the same time. Generally all the clans will have access to Houses, but there is the issue of that some Houses are more desirable than others (for instance if one happened to have a natural hot spring), and also the issue of having to plan their travel route. Due to this clans bid on the right to use specific Houses, meaning that one might be willing to give certain goods or services for the right to a more desirable house. A clan could choose not to make any such bids, but would most likely be left with the least desirable Houses and have ended up with little to no say in their travel route till the next clan meet (unless they choose to just do without the Houses).
The clans are also generally much smaller than you seem to be thinking of them being.

Owrtho

Unless the world is literally so inhospitable that you cannot simply go anywhere without going to a house, there's no reason to bid on them besides being a luxury, because if you are nomadic anyway you can head wherever you want.

The problems with the house concept as you have it, are these:

They're nomads. Why would they pay to have access to houses that A: aren't always going to be in use by other nomads, and B: aren't necessary to travel, because unless there are so many houses that they never need to sleep outside of one, and all of them were more hospitable than what they could carry, they'd be able to go anywhere anyway. This brings me to my next point

They're small groups. There is no reason they could not share the areas, especially considering the fact they can survive outside houses anyway. Furthermore, if they need the houses to survive, and need to bid on them, the houses would have to be incredibly small for the clans to not be able to share them, and that contradicts with your statement you could usually use the houses. Furthermore, if the houses were such a necessity, there would be no reason for them to be nomadic; they'd just live there.

Another problem: This is an icy, frigid world with a meeting every 50 years with small groups of nomads visiting the houses. How the hell are they supposed to stay up? Fifty years of potential blizzards is a long, long time for a place that's occasionally used to be entirely destroyed.

Basically, since they're nomads they don't need to bid on houses to get places unless they are all incapable of surviving a day outside of them, in which case they wouldn't leave because they could die in a blizzard overnight, the clans are so small any house that isn't likewise extremely small would be able to be used by multiple houses so bidding would be useless, and such small buildings, with nomads, would be destroyed during the fifty years between meets anyway.

Basically, the concepts are incompatible. "Small nomadic clans" just does not work with "permanent dwellings" no matter how you slice it, because at its core nomads wouldn't need permanent dwellings, and the outside issues of relative size also point towards this being an impossible concept.

Yes, I noticed there was a lot written about how repairs would always be made to houses, but again, why? What purpose does keeping the houses up serve? If the world is generally cold, but not enough to kill you (-5, easily survivable for extended periods of time even without magic), there'd be no point for nomadic groups to fight over houses, except maybe the largest and most powerful of structures, and those would be permanent dwellings, not stopping points for nomads. Smaller structures, like longhouses, would neither be much warmer or more easy to set up camp in than tents you could carry around, nor be capable of withstanding the weather without active repairs all the time, which, again, makes no sense with nomads.

Even more, if there was such a powerful structure, small clans would not be the ones controlling it, but a large group that controlled the structure and the outlying area.

So can I see fighting over established areas? Yes. Can I see small groups of nomads fighting over the ability to use glorified tents every few years, rather than just, you know, using tents? No. I can see them fighting over powerful things (magical hot springs, etc.) but not longhouses... you could build one of those in a couple of days with hard work if you really wanted to.

Owrtho

2010-01-08, 01:33 AM

I think you missed some things. Clanmeets are generally every 2 to 5 years (it is at these that time slots for Houses are reserved). Houses are used most of the year round. The environment isn't such you need the Houses to survive for extended periods of time, but they are warmer, and more durable than tents and the like and allow for rest. A clan would usually be at least the size of a village (around 100 people). And in the cold weather, it can make it hard for such things as pregnant women, injured, etc. to last out in the cold or in tents and the like. The Houses are for being able to rest from the life of travel temporarily and are likely generally used for at least a moth or 2 at a time (if you have it reserved). During such time it is required you make sure it is in proper repair, but as Houses are generally used with some frequency there isn't much trouble with that.

Also, there isn't fighting over the Houses (normally). They make bids on time slots to reserve the houses. This likely usually starts at no cost, simply saying, "I want X House at Y time." Then if there are multiple clans that desire to use it at the same time they make make bids to see who gets it (this likely mostly is one giving the other goods or services in exchange for them letting them have the House at that time). That doesn't mean they have to use it even, but that they have it reserved at that time. This can be useful for multiple reasons, such as if they have Houses reserved along their route, then if a blizzard or the like occurs, they know where there is shelter nearby.

Also if you look at places like desserts in the real world, Nomadic groups tended to have some permanent structures (mainly wells or sources of water). This was due to the scarcity of water and likely they planned their travels to have access to them. In this case it isn't water thats scarce but shelter and warmth, so places are made that provide that for when they need it. Due to them not being things like water of which there may be a finite amount, and needing repairs, it is more beneficial to share, and in doing so share the burden of the upkeep. As nomads they won't use them all year round, and as they don't want them to fall into ill repair while away, they let others use them in exchange for keeping them repaired.

You also seem to overlook that nomads frequently have routes they follow each year (might be some other unit of time but thats not important). As such there need not be Houses everywhere, just on the routes they follow.

And as a side note, I believe longhouse is being used to refer to the layout of the building, exactly how it is. They are likely designed with the idea of keeping the cold out and the heat in and as such are warmer than such things as tents.

If you really want to question something, it would make more sense to questing their nomadic nature? What is gained by regular travel? Why not just hunker down and make home that are secure from the cold and harsh weather?

Owrtho

Milskidasith

2010-01-08, 02:17 AM

I think you missed some things. Clanmeets are generally every 2 to 5 years (it is at these that time slots for Houses are reserved). Houses are used most of the year round. The environment isn't such you need the Houses to survive for extended periods of time, but they are warmer, and more durable than tents and the like and allow for rest. A clan would usually be at least the size of a village (around 100 people). And in the cold weather, it can make it hard for such things as pregnant women, injured, etc. to last out in the cold or in tents and the like. The Houses are for being able to rest from the life of travel temporarily and are likely generally used for at least a moth or 2 at a time (if you have it reserved). During such time it is required you make sure it is in proper repair, but as Houses are generally used with some frequency there isn't much trouble with that.

This is a valid-ish point... but as I said, that isn't worth the cost of actually spending money to reserve the house. Why would you pay for a luxury?

Also, there isn't fighting over the Houses (normally). They make bids on time slots to reserve the houses. This likely usually starts at no cost, simply saying, "I want X House at Y time." Then if there are multiple clans that desire to use it at the same time they make make bids to see who gets it (this likely mostly is one giving the other goods or services in exchange for them letting them have the House at that time). That doesn't mean they have to use it even, but that they have it reserved at that time. This can be useful for multiple reasons, such as if they have Houses reserved along their route, then if a blizzard or the like occurs, they know where there is shelter nearby.

Reserving a house five years in advance is entirely pointless. Reserving it six months in advance is more than likely going to lead to an entirely inaccurate prediction of where you will be.

Also if you look at places like desserts in the real world, Nomadic groups tended to have some permanent structures (mainly wells or sources of water). This was due to the scarcity of water and likely they planned their travels to have access to them. In this case it isn't water thats scarce but shelter and warmth, so places are made that provide that for when they need it. Due to them not being things like water of which there may be a finite amount, and needing repairs, it is more beneficial to share, and in doing so share the burden of the upkeep. As nomads they won't use them all year round, and as they don't want them to fall into ill repair while away, they let others use them in exchange for keeping them repaired.

Water is necessary. Warmth above the high tempatures you can get with a well made tent is not.

You also seem to overlook that nomads frequently have routes they follow each year (might be some other unit of time but thats not important). As such there need not be Houses everywhere, just on the routes they follow.

Sure, they follow routes, but again, there is no reason to pay for a house, or lock yourself into one route, for a minor luxury.

And as a side note, I believe longhouse is being used to refer to the layout of the building, exactly how it is. They are likely designed with the idea of keeping the cold out and the heat in and as such are warmer than such things as tents.

Yes, they may be warmer, but the term longhouse does not suggest a building of enough luxury to be worth locking yourself into a specific route, or possibly even paying for, compared to a tent.

If you really want to question something, it would make more sense to questing their nomadic nature? What is gained by regular travel? Why not just hunker down and make home that are secure from the cold and harsh weather?

I questioned both. If they are nomads, why would they build houses? If there are grand magical fortresses that are warm, why would they be nomadic? One or the other needs to be removed, or at least less of a focus.

OrangeQuarter

2010-01-08, 03:05 AM

Milskidasith

2010-01-08, 03:35 AM

You're proposing that they have to be neither while snow associated nomads were both. The Inuit built permanent structures on the tundras they lived on, where people could rest and survive, and serve as a base for small hunting expeditions. A warm, central area where semi-permanent structures for manufacturing, medical care, and food storage can be made and taken care of is pretty useful. It simply gives a clan that extra needed security to survive a bad winter, or a military attack. They don't want to be nomads, and in the general sense of the word, while they travel from house to house with the temperatures and the game, at each house they are essentially a hunting-based settlement. So they move around from house to house, yes, but they aren't exactly 'lets all live out on the plains foreeeeveeer' types. They're just trying to survive.

Yes, but this appear to be permanent towns from what I can tell, or at least some of the things are (a large cave network, magically warm area, a fortress), which would definitely not be under nomad control. As for the smaller structures, yes, that works for one group. When all the groups are arranging timeshares years in advance, using a town as a base of operation or a storage facility does not work well, at all. Again, I can see nomads using the structures, especially the way you pointed it out, but using them in a timeshare-y "I want the house when I get there four years from now on my planned trip, and there's obviously no way I could just arrange things when I am entirely sure I can reach the house on time" doesn't work, and most of the advantages you stated are lost when they have to switch between people so much; any storage would require you drag all the materials there, and then remove them when you leave, or at least all personal goods.

Also, I would assume that it is not real money being spend, but favors; though more fitting would a system where the houses recorded generally as best would be given to weakened clans who can't handle bad conditions, and such.

No, it's explicitly stated to be basically trading goods for houses, and thhusly weakened clans would wind up dying off because they couldn't afford the better houses. Then again, the better houses are quite clearly big enough that using them for a nomadic base a few days is entirely pointless because they seem self sustainable and could simply be lived on permanently.

The Tygre

2010-01-08, 03:42 AM

I see no reason why we can't go with nomadic houses. If the majority of the community is agreed to it, it has a place. If not, it can be reconfigured, reworked, or scrapped all together. I'm for it.

BRC

2010-01-08, 09:38 AM

Houses are permanent structures, but with non-permanent occupants.

The way I see it, if a Clan stays in an area too long, they will deplete it's resources. The environment is simply too harsh for agriculture, and so a region must occasionally be allowed to lie Fallow. The system of these semi-nomadic clans is designed to ensure that this does not happen. A clan stays in a House for a given period of time, then leaves and the House stays empty (With the exception of clans needing a place to stay) for a period of time, allowing the local animal and plant populations to recover.

Edit: It's been explicitally stated that Clans decide who gets which houses. I don't think we've officially put a system for these decisions into stone. A clan could compete for a house by convincing others of their need, by promising favors or giving trade goods to other clans, by making deals (If you let us get the Fang Cliff House next spring, we will support you getting the Dragonsgrave House for the winter).

Milskidasith

2010-01-08, 01:11 PM

The way I see it, if a Clan stays in an area too long, they will deplete it's resources. The environment is simply too harsh for agriculture, and so a region must occasionally be allowed to lie Fallow. The system of these semi-nomadic clans is designed to ensure that this does not happen. A clan stays in a House for a given period of time, then leaves and the House stays empty (With the exception of clans needing a place to stay) for a period of time, allowing the local animal and plant populations to recover.

Yes, but why decide five years in advance? If they're travelling, there's no way they'd know they need to be there five years in advance. Also, having a house lie fallow in a harsh, blizzard filled snowball insures it's destruction, unless you want some clans to stay at the houses at all times making repairs with no food in the local area.

Edit: It's been explicitally stated that Clans decide who gets which houses. I don't think we've officially put a system for these decisions into stone. A clan could compete for a house by convincing others of their need, by promising favors or giving trade goods to other clans, by making deals (If you let us get the Fang Cliff House next spring, we will support you getting the Dragonsgrave House for the winter).

Paying for them is counter-productive, as I've already stated, unless the houses are so necessary a clan literally cannot survive without staying in one. This is especially true if the houses have to be abandoned to let the land lie fallow, because they'll have to spend even more resources rebuilding the house later.

So your explanation has just added more contradictions... if the clans need the houses to survive, why are they nomadic? If they leave them to lie fallow, how do the clans keep the houses in repair (if other clans stay there but don't hunt, you run into the fact that, if they need the houses to survive, staying in one but not getting any food is suicide, or at least a massive drain on resources). And still, why are the houses important? I have yet to see a reason given, in any post, why the houses are somehow important enough that you'd want to pay for them but not so important that you wouldn't take one over and live there permanently that doesn't also cause other contradictions (your explanation leaves the question of "how does a house left alone stay up for multiple years?")

Vadin

2010-01-08, 01:51 PM

It's been explicitally stated that Clans decide who gets which houses. I don't think we've officially put a system for these decisions into stone. A clan could compete for a house by convincing others of their need, by promising favors or giving trade goods to other clans, by making deals (If you let us get the Fang Cliff House next spring, we will support you getting the Dragonsgrave House for the winter).

I like this variable method.

As to 'why on earth would someone want to pay for a luxury'...are you aware that people pay for luxuries? And that they do so very, very often?

@Mils: TWO to FIVE. Stop trying to break things apart by choosing the largest number in that range. Two is much more likely for most regions and is a realistic amount of foresight for planning travel (in three months we'll be here, and then we'll wait a few weeks and weather the blizzard season in this house, and then come out once its over and head up this way...).

And yes, there is a group that spends all its time going between houses and making sure they are in good repair, the Caretakers. There are also clans who trade off their building skill for stays in houses and are probably culturally obligated to stay at a cruddy house every now and then to try and push it to a less cruddy house.

Honestly, I don't see why "We're going North and we'd like to stop somewhere part of the way to our destination to make sure we have everything and we're well rested" is such a difficult concept. Have you ever hiked the Appalachian Trail? Along the way, every few miles (in most places), there are adirondacks and man...they're a lot better than a tent. They block the wind (and in some cases, snow) and they're warmer and sometimes someone will have left some firewood there. Of course, you can't do that all the time and sometimes you have to sleep in your thin little tent and it is not as fun.

I'm sure that there are permanent settlements in some of the more critical locations, places with quite a few extra houses that are popular waypoints to places like strip mining areas, forests where reindeer and elk dwell, and large forests for logging. Near those destinations would maybe be a house, but there's no guarantee that there would already be a house if the area the nomads have traveled to is relatively new and unexploited. In such a situation they certainly could do without houses, but man...sleeping in a building with walls to block out the wind and keep in the heat from the fire would be pretty awesome.

Milskidasith

2010-01-08, 02:14 PM

First off, there's a difference between paying for luxuries IRL and paying for luxuries in this... this is apparently a harsh world where survival is key. I'll rephrase the question: Why, in a world where it's hard to survive, would you pay necessary survival goods in a barter to obtain a luxury? That's like, IRL, selling all of your food and quitting your job to buy a mansion.

@Mils: TWO to FIVE. Stop trying to break things apart by choosing the largest number in that range. Two is much more likely for most regions and is a realistic amount of foresight for planning travel (in three months we'll be here, and then we'll wait a few weeks and weather the blizzard season in this house, and then come out once its over and head up this way...).

There would be little point at pointing out the less absurd things, wouldn't there? The fact you said five means five is out there, and it's an absurd amount of planning.

And yes, there is a group that spends all its time going between houses and making sure they are in good repair, the Caretakers. There are also clans who trade off their building skill for stays in houses and are probably culturally obligated to stay at a cruddy house every now and then to try and push it to a less cruddy house.

Ok, but why do the caretakers exist? How do they survive if all they do is repair the houses that are in the state where you can't get food from them? Who would willingly join a group that's sole purpose is to nearly starve so other people can get to life in mild luxury?

Honestly, I don't see why "We're going North and we'd like to stop somewhere part of the way to our destination to make sure we have everything and we're well rested" is such a difficult concept. Have you ever hiked the Appalachian Trail? Along the way, every few miles (in most places), there are adirondacks and man...they're a lot better than a tent. They block the wind (and in some cases, snow) and they're warmer and sometimes someone will have left some firewood there. Of course, you can't do that all the time and sometimes you have to sleep in your thin little tent and it is not as fun.

Yes, I've hiked it. You know what? Yes, tents are worse. But is it worth enough I'd pay valuable resources to sleep in a building instead of a tent? Not unless I was really, really sure it would be horrible weather, and if it was really cheap, especially if I'm paying with food I get along the way, not money I get from elsewhere.

I'm sure that there are permanent settlements in some of the more critical locations, places with quite a few extra houses that are popular waypoints to places like strip mining areas, forests where reindeer and elk dwell, and large forests for logging. Near those destinations would maybe be a house, but there's no guarantee that there would already be a house if the area the nomads have traveled to is relatively new and unexploited. In such a situation they certainly could do without houses, but man...sleeping in a building with walls to block out the wind and keep in the heat from the fire would be pretty awesome.

Yes, it would be awesome. The problem is, it's not worth paying for it, and the way you have it set up just doesn't work. It requires massive amounts of planning in advance and a dues ex machina clan of people who only repair houses in fallow and don't do anything else in order to work without problems.

Vadin

2010-01-08, 02:36 PM

Caretakers are kept in food by other clans and they are a socially prestigious organization.

Bidding is not necessarily in the form of food, a clan stakes a claim on a house for a given time and bidding only occurs if there's a dispute, and bidding might be in the form of paying all the other clans some of your stockpiled food, it might be in the form of giving a few powerful clans some ivory, or it might even be agreeing to try and share it if its critical at that location for both clans (where sharing is having the weak, children, and elderly staying in the house while the fit manage outside or they all huddle together inside and its crowded).

Instead of naysaying everything that has been developed thus far, perhaps you could propose things as alternatives? To be fair, we are still very early on in the process, and the whole arrangement we have at present could be rearranged into a loose confederation of clans who have settled into a number of small towns centered around hot springs and networks of tunnels for agriculture and limited husbandry. Trade with groups of roving nomads supplements this mostly-sustainable lifestyle, and nomads bring in such luxury goods as extremely fatty meats, rare spell components, animals, ivory, and rare minerals. Regional clanmeets still happen, but its more of an administrative thing to try and ensure that they all charge similar prices for goods and/or they present a united front against a particular Ice Tyrant and/or they send troops to a given location for defense of one of the towns.

BRC

2010-01-08, 02:37 PM

Clans also keep the Houses in repair while they are staying there, it's not just the Caretakers. Also, Houses are very hardy structures, they're designed to be able to survive a season while the land around them lies fallow. The Caretaker's also don't starve, their groups are smaller and more mobile than a Clan, so they can hunt and forage in a fallow area without depleting it's resources too much while they stay and fix up a House. Also, being a Caretaker is an honored position, so any Clans they run into usually help them resupply. It's not like the Caretakers just wander around, cold and starving. Plus, Caretakers probably contain a higher proportion of spellcasters, it might be traditional for Spellcasters to train by doing a shift in the Caretakers, allowing them to meet and train with more experienced spellcasters from outside their Clan.

A Fallow area isn't one that's deprived of food. It's one that, if it gets constantly occupied by a clan will run out, so it's left to recharge. a Group of 20 cartakers (Some of which may be able to Create food) can stay in an area for a few weeks, long enough to repair a house, without depleting the local resources the way a clan of 100 staying there for a few months will.

Edit: also, stop saying "It dosn't make sense, it's just paying for luxury" . Luxury only dosn't make sense from a DnD players perspective, where the only difference between staying in a fleabag inn on straw mattress and in the nicest inn in town where you are served a delicious 5-course meal before spending a night in total comfort is the cost.

Milskidasith

2010-01-08, 02:59 PM

Caretakers are kept in food by other clans and they are a socially prestigious organization.

Again, why would you pay necessary survival goods (food) to caretakers so they can keep your luxuries in repair? It's cutting off your nose to buy a pair of glasses, basically.

Bidding is not necessarily in the form of food, a clan stakes a claim on a house for a given time and bidding only occurs if there's a dispute, and bidding might be in the form of paying all the other clans some of your stockpiled food, it might be in the form of giving a few powerful clans some ivory, or it might even be agreeing to try and share it if its critical at that location for both clans (where sharing is having the weak, children, and elderly staying in the house while the fit manage outside or they all huddle together inside and its crowded).

Yes, they can bid more than just food, and it's not always in dispute. Stop repeating yourself on points that are irrelevant. There is little to no reason to ever actually pay, in food, for a house because, as I said, getting rid of resources needed to survive for a luxury is self-destructive.

Instead of naysaying everything that has been developed thus far, perhaps you could propose things as alternatives?

I did. You ignored it and said "No, we're doing it like this."

To be fair, we are still very early on in the process, and the whole arrangement we have at present could be rearranged into a loose confederation of clans who have settled into a number of small towns centered around hot springs and networks of tunnels for agriculture and limited husbandry. Trade with groups of roving nomads supplements this mostly-sustainable lifestyle, and nomads bring in such luxury goods as extremely fatty meats, rare spell components, animals, ivory, and rare minerals. Regional clanmeets still happen, but its more of an administrative thing to try and ensure that they all charge similar prices for goods and/or they present a united front against a particular Ice Tyrant and/or they send troops to a given location for defense of one of the towns.

That makes a lot more sense.

Edit: also, stop saying "It dosn't make sense, it's just paying for luxury" . Luxury only dosn't make sense from a DnD players perspective, where the only difference between staying in a fleabag inn on straw mattress and in the nicest inn in town where you are served a delicious 5-course meal before spending a night in total comfort is the cost.

I'm not speaking from a D&D perspective at all. From a real life perspective, if I had a choice of eating well and sleeping in a tent, or selling off food to sleep in a mildly warm house, I'd pick the tent.

BRC

2010-01-08, 03:08 PM

I'm not speaking from a D&D perspective at all. From a real life perspective, if I had a choice of eating well and sleeping in a tent, or selling off food to sleep in a mildly warm house, I'd pick the tent.
Food isn't the only currency used. There are other goods they may trade and offer. Also, Caretakers showing up and demanding food isn't a regular occurrence, they normally take care of themselves.

You're also working on the assumption that a Clan will, at any point, only be able to have exactly enough food to eat, and that if they give any of it up, they will starve. If such is the case, they don't trade food, they trade other goods. It is, however, possible to have such a thing as a Surplus.

Vadin

2010-01-08, 03:37 PM

You still are over exaggerating everything ridiculously. In that example, you would sell a tenth of your food or so, not all of it. There is not a dichotomy of 'we all eat' or 'we all sleep in nice beds and starve'. Your examples are the only place this has happened.

Milskidasith

2010-01-08, 03:39 PM

Food isn't the only currency used. There are other goods they may trade and offer. Also, Caretakers showing up and demanding food isn't a regular occurrence, they normally take care of themselves.

You guys seem to be confused amongst yourselves, because just a couple posts ago I was told that the caretakers were provided for entirely by the other clans.

You're also working on the assumption that a Clan will, at any point, only be able to have exactly enough food to eat, and that if they give any of it up, they will starve. If such is the case, they don't trade food, they trade other goods. It is, however, possible to have such a thing as a Surplus.

No, I'm working on the assumption that, in a harsh, freezing world with limited food supplies, trading away even your surplus is suicidal because you'll need it if a blizzard hits. What you need to live in good conditions with the ability to gather food is vastly different than what you need to keep people alive for a week in a blizzard that traps you, and I'd prefer knowing I could live through that to getting the chance to go to a house if I don't get hit by said blizzard.

You still are over exaggerating everything ridiculously. In that example, you would sell a tenth of your food or so, not all of it. There is not a dichotomy of 'we all eat' or 'we all sleep in nice beds and starve'. Your examples are the only place this has happened.

One tenth of your food supplies is a massive amount... and again, the problem is that trading away your surplus is bad because you will need your surplus unless you are incredibly lucky. Again, if you have perfect weather, then sure, trading away surplus is a valid idea, but trading it away when there's a chance of a blizzard completely negating your ability to do anything is definitely not a smart idea.

Owrtho

2010-01-08, 03:40 PM

First, you seem to be of the mind that the clans must be lose to starving or some such. Just because their nomads, doesn't mean they can't have an excess of food. The issue is that the land can't sustain them for prolonged periods of time. As such they need to move on. Odds are that most clans have enough food that giving some up isn't a particular problem, any more than it would be for the average village in a normal setting to give up some food to some honored guests.
Also, just because the Houses might seem little more than a luxury most of the time, doesn't mean they can't be a necessity some of the time. There are likely particularly bad blizzards and the like that just can't be weathered in tents without a good chance of heavy loss.

Owrtho

Milskidasith

2010-01-08, 03:41 PM

BRC

2010-01-08, 03:43 PM

Vadin

2010-01-08, 03:49 PM

Keep in mind that as far as they know, the world has always been like this. They are used to this. They know blizzard season like islanders know tsunami season- it's bad and you should watch out for it, but it can be survived if the proper measures are taken and everyone keeps an eye out.

It also seems that you've built this setting up in your mind such that anyone doing anything other than storing up food is going to get themselves killed with no incentive to do anything else. Settings where the only goal is to get enough food are less than fun. Without some societal complexity and excess, enough excess to send a few people of on a perilous journey and enough complexity to unite otherwise disparate people, adventuring for ancient and lost treasures in dangerous tombs isn't going to happen.

Some concessions must be made to allow for such things or there will be nothing for players to do but go out, hunt, come back, and lather, rinse, repeat.

And yes, I saw your proposal, but I was less than thrilled with the opening and skimmed it because I was a tad insulted that you would jump on me for taking things too literally when you clearly hadn't read through what we had come up with so far.

SlyGuyMcFly

2010-01-08, 03:53 PM

I'm not saying they can't have an excess. I'm saying trading away your excess is a bad idea because if there's a blizzard you're going to need it. As for protecting from blizzards, unless you can predict the weather 2-5 years in advance, there is no guarantee you will have a house during a blizzard.

If you're hit by a bad blizzard, having a solid structure to live in is a lot more critical than having more food. A Clan can easily survive on reduced rations for a few weeks, but a few weeks of snowfall, bitter cold and freezing winds? You don't live through that in tents.

The way I see them being used is sorta like this: 'we're going to be here-ish when the cold(er) season starts, so we should spend a couple of months here, before travelling along this route to this other House here, were we can stay a couple of weeks if things have gone poorly during the trip. After that we'll get to this other place in time for the springtime Dire Caribou migration.'

Although I do think that making the Meets a yearly event, probably during whatever passes for summer, where Clans trade, exchange stories and determine House usage for the following year, might work out a little better.

Milskidasith

2010-01-08, 03:54 PM

You could say the same thing about any society. a Village shouldn't trade away any of it's food, because they may have a bad growing year and need it.

Where'd you find the materials for a strawman in a blizzard world?

Some concessions must be made to allow for such things or there will be nothing for players to do but go out, hunt, come back, and lather, rinse, repeat.

Adventurers are high levels. They can cast protection from elements and walk around nude for all the weather cares, create food magically, or just ignore it because 1d6 subdual per hour (or whatever it would be) isn't much for anybody who has 5 HD and a constitution of 14+.

Keep in mind that as far as they know, the world has always been like this. They are used to this. They know blizzard season like islanders know tsunami season- it's bad and you should watch out for it, but it can be survived if the proper measures are taken and everyone keeps an eye out.

I'm pretty sure blizzards don't come in seasons, or at least they certainly never did where I lived; they could come any time during winter, and even early spring.

It also seems that you've built this setting up in your mind such that anyone doing anything other than storing up food is going to get themselves killed with no incentive to do anything else. Settings where the only goal is to get enough food are less than fun. Without some societal complexity and excess, enough excess to send a few people of on a perilous journey and enough complexity to unite otherwise disparate people, adventuring for ancient and lost treasures in dangerous tombs isn't going to happen.

Temperatures range from 0 to -30, it's winter at all times except for what passes for summer, which is like late fall, there are few places permanently habitable, and it's near impossible for a group of more than 100-200 to survive because of the fact they'd go through resources too quickly. You guys set all that up, not me. I'm just taking it to it's logical conclusion.

BRC

2010-01-08, 04:01 PM

Where'd you find the materials for a strawman in a blizzard world?

Same place you found yours.

The point is, we're designing this world from the ground up. If we want food to be plentiful enough that a Clan can have an excess for trading/ giving to the occasional group of Caretakers, we can do that. We could make things so scarce that a hunter will spend days tracking down an especially plump rabbit, or we could have it so that if you close your eyes and throw a spear, you'll find something tasty on the other end.

But we definitely need to have Knights on Mooseback.

Edit: If we take things to their logical conclusion, we get the Tippyverse.

Milskidasith

2010-01-08, 04:05 PM

The point is, we're designing this world from the ground up. If we want food to be plentiful enough that a Clan can have an excess for trading/ giving to the occasional group of Caretakers, we can do that. We could make things so scarce that a hunter will spend days tracking down an especially plump rabbit, or we could have it so that if you close your eyes and throw a spear, you'll find something tasty on the other end.

If food is plentiful enough that they can have excess all the time, then it seems to go against the problem you had with larger clans existing at all. Sure, you can say whatever you want, but it should make sense with the other things you are saying.

Edit: If we take things to their logical conclusion, we get the Tippyverse.

Jeez, are we in a cornfield? Lot's of strawmen out here.

Vadin

2010-01-08, 04:10 PM

And a Blizzard season, when they are rather likely to start. Not guaranteed, but they are rare outside of this season.

Winter (4 months), Spring/Fall (6 months), Winter (4 months), Frostwind (2 months), repeat. A 16 month year on another planet in a different reality where that's how long it takes to go around the sun and the planet is further away and orbits more slowly. If there any physics concerns with that, MAGIC.

Now, let's please move onto the world's cultures, organizations, threats, history, important people, important places, unique monsters, unique races, differences in races between this and the standard Fantasy Setting, and other things that make it cool.

BRC

2010-01-08, 04:12 PM

If food is plentiful enough that they can have excess all the time, then it seems to go against the problem you had with larger clans existing at all. Sure, you can say whatever you want, but it should make sense with the other things you are saying.

Larger clans could not exist for other reasons (It's hard to travel with a large group). Just because, occasionally, food is traded, dosn't mean that there is always an excess for every clan. In fact, if that was the case, food wouldn't NEED to be traded, since everybody would have enough. Clans go through lean times and lush times.
Also, it's a fictional world, the mobile clans system is cool, lets put on our disbelief suspenders here.
Can we please not let the entire thread get bogged down by this argument. The Mobile Clans system, for example, I imagine as being primarily inland. Lets talk some about the Ice Tyrants, or subterranean societies, or the societies that live near the ocean, or races that are naturally resistant to the cold, and therefore don't need to use the Houses.

Vadin

2010-01-08, 04:19 PM

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/200/535838193_dafa2110bc.jpg

Mammoth men. Or rather, weremammoth descended shifters. Every few generations, one will be born with fully lycanthropic shifting and be able to turn into a full on dire mammoth. Typically, a mammoth shifter tribe is attached to a specific herd of mammoths, and these herds are very taboo to hunt (both because they are seen as protected by vengeful spirits of nature and because they are protected by easily angered longtusks).

They have a strong oral tradition and a herd-oriented martial heritage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5569037) that dates back to the first weremammoths.

BAM. Reclusive beast men with discipline.

Milskidasith

2010-01-08, 05:00 PM

Now, let's please move onto the world's cultures, organizations, threats, history, important people, important places, unique monsters, unique races, differences in races between this and the standard Fantasy Setting, and other things that make it cool.

Both of you stop trying to change the issue; there's no way your proposed system could work. Yes, the other stuff can be cool, but if the primary system makes no sense, I wouldn't want to play in that world.

The Tygre

2010-01-08, 05:01 PM

Oh, kind of like Loxo, except not as weird looking. Would they have any special connection to the afterlife? I remember reading back in Frostfell that Neanderthals revere mammoths as keepers of the dead. Or maybe that was just me toying around with elephant/mammoth graveyards...

See, that's the thing about community projects. There's at least half a dozen of us all working at the same time, with different expectations, different ideas, different worlds and reasonings and philosophies. We're going to be contradicting each other right and left. We can get down to brass tacks later. Right now, let's just have fun brainstorming.

Vadin

2010-01-08, 05:11 PM

Special connection to the dead...I don't know about the dead, but they might be especially in tune with the World Spirits, animal-god-ghosts who grant boons and deliver curses and have some sway over the natural world (weather, wild animals, plants, and natural phenomena).

The Tygre

2010-01-08, 05:14 PM

Vadin

2010-01-08, 05:30 PM

Quite. A superior understanding of the behaviors of animals and weather patterns, and some magical manipulation thereof.

Now, someone else make something up and begin to flesh it out! :smallbiggrin:

BRC

2010-01-08, 05:54 PM

I think we should flesh out the oceanside societies (Which are permenant, as opposed to the Inland clan nations). Stormwrack has that race of orca-people, maybe they would work well here.

kopout

2010-01-08, 06:24 PM

I'm not familiar with them. How do they work? More specifically are they people shaped monsters, goblin analogs, or an actual race with culture and everything?

FlamingKobold

2010-01-08, 06:58 PM

Alright, I just read this huge debate about bidding on houses and a few things occurred to me. How do people like these? (I will be laying them out in a numbered format to make them easier to respond to.

1. Proposed fact: Agricultural growth is incredibly hard to obtain, and for the most part downright impossible. This means that people live off of meat, primarily.

2. Proposed fact: If you stay in one place too long, the game population dies very quickly. The reason this is an issue in this setting specifically is that the temperatures mean that people don't want to ship precious food away, which drives the cost of trying to import food extremely high and unobtainable (To all but Ice Tyrants, who have minions for that kind of stuff)

3. This doesn't mean that people are complete nomads (Constantly moving) it just means that they are, for the most part, a semi-nomadic people. This means that one area can be inhabited by a small clan (100-150 people or so) for a period defined in terms of months, but varied based on precise location.

4. Houses are pretty big. They are something like motels. Yes, they can comfortably fit 150 or 200 people (A clan or so) But, if need be, multiple clans can stay in the same house. However, this means that there is a strong incentive to leave more full houses, because more clans means more people means less available food.

5. Caretakers work in small groups (2-5, depending on the size) and permanently live in the Houses. They are like the owners of the motel. They maintain working conditions of the House.

6. Caretakers are primarily (modified) magewrights. They focus on minor healing spells, communication (Sending) and repairing structures.

7. All houses and clans have sending stones. This enables clans to "call ahead" and see if a certain House is available. Bear in mind: There is a range on the spell, so they can't just contact every house. This means that, much of time, clans will avoid clogging up houses, and be able to not have to share a house with a clan they aren't on good terms with.

8. There are clanmeets (I won't try to establish a specific frequency) in the Great Houses. In the center of the clans' region, there is a collection of houses large enough to keep all the clans comfortably. Again, no one stays because there isn't enough game nearby.

9. There are also Grand Caretakerss, who maintain the Great Houses, and are generally the eldest and best Caretakers.

10. Clanmeets do not exist to decide who gets what house, but do have other purposes.
A) Solve disputes between clans.
B) Appoint new caretakers and Grand Caretakers, because a lot of them are old.
C) Work out deals between clans (trade goods, etc)

What do people think?

kopout

2010-01-08, 07:15 PM

Sounds goodish to me.

Owrtho

2010-01-08, 08:20 PM

I'd like to make a suggestion for a possible supernatural type of entity.
Storm bearers: No one is quite sure where they come from or what they are, but to the best of most peoples knowledge they are indestructible. A storm bearer usually looks like a person, but made of ice and snow. For mot they seem to be harmless, however each storm bearer has a specific target they track, which they do by what seems to be the memory of the land, as they always follow the same path as their target. If they reach within a certain distance (maybe 30 to 40 feet) of their target, harsh blizzards, hail, and other detrimental weather springs up (though they still seek out their target). While aside from the storms they cause they seem to have no ill will toward their target, they feared nonetheless.
Fortunately they can be avoided. They move only when it is cold enough (maybe -7 or colder), and can only move across snow and ice. People aren't sure why they show up, but they have been seen suddenly forming from the snow and ice in an area and immediately setting out (though it is not known if this is just how they rest when not moving). If the person they target dies, they are known to just break apart into normal snow and ice, but it isn't know if they actually die or are deciding upon a new target.
Those that find themselves as targets, often join the nomads, as their traveling lifestyle help keep them ahead of the storm bearers. Some even think it was the storm bearers that made the nomads come into being to begin with.

Storm bearers also aren't known to be intelligent.

Owrtho

FlamingKobold

2010-01-09, 12:05 AM

I like the Storm Bearer idea, I think it's very thematic. However, I think we need to define them a bit more. As in, you say that people don't know why they do things, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't know. I think you're trying to make it so that it's open to DM decisions, but it seems like something that's a bit too vague. I think we could make them kind of like inevitables. They seek out certain people for certain reasons, and only have one target.

That brings me to something else. I think it might have been mentioned briefly before, but I really think that this needs to be a low magic setting for sure. Otherwise, no one would care about the cold because of a ton of magic things. One thing I'm picking up from this setting is a gritty, hard working feel, which is ruined by magic.

Owrtho

2010-01-09, 12:46 AM

I agree on the low magic. As for the Storm Bearers, some possibilities is that they're manifestations of strong emotion toward an individual. The cold and ice take in the emotion and manifest in the form of the one who felt it, then pursue the one it's toward. As they get closer, the emotion gets stronger, thus causing more cold, snow, and ice (and it could be any emotion from hatred to love). If thats the case it likely takes some magical energy and or death in the area to bring it into being.
Another thought is that it is a messenger of nature or the like, sent to carry important messages or to punish.
It could also be just some kind of creature. One of the initial ideas is that if it reaches and kills its target, it then takes in the memory of the most important person to that person making them their next target (most important could be someone hated, loved, or somewhere in between, but needs to be alive).

Also, if we want to have some reason for the low magic (besides just that there isn't much), maybe snow in the setting drains persistent magic from things. Thus is you enchant someone with resist elements, and they walk out into a blizzard, all that snow will quickly sap the enchantment right off them. Thus they'd have to then bundle up just to keep the snow from reaching them even with the enchantment. Similarly, its easier to enchant real buildings against the cold than tents and the like as a real building could have an outer layer to keep off the snow and an inner enchanted layer.
It would also make magical gear and weapons much more rare and valuable as leaving them out in the snow would make them well, not magical any more.

Owrtho

Milskidasith

2010-01-09, 12:54 AM

That brings me to something else. I think it might have been mentioned briefly before, but I really think that this needs to be a low magic setting for sure. Otherwise, no one would care about the cold because of a ton of magic things. One thing I'm picking up from this setting is a gritty, hard working feel, which is ruined by magic.

You suggest low magic, but also suggest that everybody has magical communication and magical caretakers living everywhere (off of magic) in order to keep the hotels up. If you want low magic, eliminate that. Magitek isn't really low magic, at all.

Also, wouldn't the low temperatures make transporting meat much easier? It's essentially a freezer everywhere. At 0 degrees (just freezing) the meat should stay fine without getting freezer burnt.

Owrtho

2010-01-09, 01:00 AM

Just a question, but I notice it hasn't been mentioned at all. Everyone is talking about it being -5 degrees, but is this Celsius or Fahrenheit? It seems that that could make a bit of difference.

Edit: Also, while it likely doesn't work to have the Caretakers conjuring food and the like, they could as just a few people survive by hunting and the like without causing any particular trouble for the environment. Also, there is a difference between having 1 or 2 minor magical items in a clan and having magitek. All that is really needed for the ability to communicate is a means of knowing if it is occupied ahead of time. It doesn't seem like to much of a stretch that in a low magic setting each clan might have something like a small stone enchanted to vibrate or the like if others are within a certain distance, or maybe the Caretakers have an opposing type of stone that only works if it is heated or the like, thus when the House is occupied they put it in a fire. The stones could be quite valuable, and hard to make meaning that the Clans treat them quite well, since if they're lost or damaged then they'll need to pay a heft fee to get a new one.

Owrtho

FlamingKobold

2010-01-09, 01:10 AM

OrangeQuarter

2010-01-09, 01:18 AM

Quick Idea: What if the Storm Bearers were at the center of every blizzard, especially super-blizzard-type-hurricane-sort of things, in the 'Eye of the Storm'. Usually a clan has to just survive a blizzard, but sometimes when a clan is in a particularly bad position when the Storm Bearers pass, they have to gamble and send out a group of people to try and slay the Storm Bearer, and destroy the blizzard-hurricane-mabober? Easy quest hook. Party sets out, kills Storm Bearer... and finds themselves lost in the middle of the tundra. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Yeah, -5 Farenheit.

Vadin

2010-01-09, 01:25 AM

All these things.

All those things? I'm fine with them, as they are rather excellent.

As for low magic vs. high magic vs. normal magic, I think we should change some of what magic is in the setting.

Primal magic is well known for everyone. It doesn't create lasting effects that are outside of nature (they might make a fireball, but its fire would fizzle because it wasn't a natural fire), but it can enhance nature- it can accelerate healing immensely, it can keep fires going, and it can help you stay warm.

Soul magic is using the passed on members of your community and race or the spirits of the animals and beasts around you to gain strength, and is a very uncommon thing. It is not something that one can seek out, the ancestors or the World Spirits choose someone to receive this gift who they seek to mold into a champion for some reason (incarnum).

Arcane magic is rare and difficult and dangerous to obtain. This might not be reflected mechanically in the end, but as far as the setting is concerned, it's not common at all. The sources are pacts with summoned demons, summoned devils, fey courts who trade children for power, a manifestation of an otherworldly ancestor's magical might, and ancient items that teach secrets (items that hold the souls of ancient people of power instead of wizards' spellbooks).

Divine magic is less common than primal magic, but a devoted priest blessed by his deity is still well-known enough that there's one for every few clans. Diseases can be cured with enough time, and divine fury can be channeled, and wounds magically patched. The other source of divine magic is to find an especially powerful religious artifact and gain it's favor (archivists, the divine equivalent of wizards).

Magic weapons? Fogetaboutit (mostly)! A flaming sword is even rarer in this setting than it would be in a normal one, and a vorpal blade? No way! A few minor wondrous items, though, that let someone utilize a cantrip or a first level spell for something as small as pricking a finger or repeating a phrase is not out of the question.

In short: Druids, shamans, and people who have to obey and preserve the natural order are a few to a clan. Favored souls, clerics, and paladins are a few to a region. Sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards are a few to a nation. People who can use incarnum are about as common as people who can use arcane magic (though they are more likely to be respected, as soulmelding is a near-universally auspicious boon). Most 'heavy magic' is ritual and requires a lot more focus, and 'quick magic' that doesn't have many lasting effects is what is employed in combat and is lower impact (this is something from 4e that I've always been partial to and would work here).

Of course, high-level characters are always very uncommon, and these magical people have to contend with martial adepts, so...they are rare, but not inherently more powerful than those who know martial maneuvers (which are much more common and are often supernatural and enhanced by the same sources that grant other individuals full on magical abilities). And I know we tend to skirt the issue of editions with these things, but martial adepts in 3.5 are just as easily every martial character ever and swordsages and paladins and wardens in 4e (so we can continue to call them martial adepts without having to develop two totally separate nomenclatures).

Milskidasith

2010-01-09, 01:35 AM

Well, Milski, let's think about this.

Sending - First level

Cure light wounds - First Level

That Magewright spell - first level. It gives you a bonus to craft checks to repair things.

So, yes. I advocate that in a low- (not no-) magic setting, first level spells are available. Also, if you remember, caretakers are pretty elite. There aren't entire communities of them. You're just trying to be contrary...

Ah, lovely, because I criticize something I must be a horrible person trying to ruin your fun, and not somebody interested in the project who sees things as being contradictory. Yes, first level spells should be available. But the widespread use you have of them is akin to a setting where everybody goes to the local cleric to get healed up with a CLW whenever they get injured rather than resting it off. Yes, it's a low level spell, but it's still a high level use of it; mass communications, mass repairs, and mass healing by magic seem very high magic.

1. Clans won't completely starve all the time as you mentioned earlier and

Just because it's easy to store doesn't mean you don't have to eat it. I worked under the assumption their food was nonperishable from the start.

2. They want to give it away even less because they can just keep it for themselves.

Which is a problem.

If you had read what I was talking about, and what others said about the environment, the point is that there aren't many permenent settlements in the plains (which is where we're talking about) meaning that importing theings is really hard, because there isn't any specific place to get it from. Also, it bears noting that it's really fricking cold. That's the reason I gave. Great, it stays good longer, that doesn't make travelling any easier.

I have read what you are talking about. Nothing in this paragraph contradicts anything I've said; in fact, these are some of the points in my argument (if it's really frigging hard to go anywhere, why the hell would you schedule timeshares that force you to go to X place at Y time? You changed that, which is a step in the right direction, though.

EDIT: I was thinking -5 Farenheit, myself.

I was working under the assumption of -5 C.

-Snip-

How does this go with the suggestions of kobold, which you just supported, that have mass amounts of arcane magical items floating around, with arcane magic being used to repair the houses? That is completely contradictory.

Plus, I hate the idea of using souls to power cantrips and low level spells, or requiring a pact with a demon to cast burning hands. That's just absurd. If you want arcane magic to be rare and come from sources like dead souls and demonic pacts, it should be powerful whenever it's there, because really, who'd trade their soul to a demon to use cantrips?

Owrtho

2010-01-09, 01:42 AM

On the idea of storm bearers in all storms, not sure if it would quite work like that. Part of the idea is that a storm bearer can't just be killed. Otherwise they wouldn't be much a a threat if one was after you. You'd just hire someone to go out and kill it. That said, there might be ways to delay them. Perhaps if someone went out with a torch and some fuel or the like, they could try burning it, which would cause it to temporarily melt away and thus cause the storm to die down, but only as long as the fire was being applied. As such a clan might send someone out to hold it off while the rest try to get out, and then hope the person can make it back too them, but odds are they might not.
As for the ones that target people, they only make a storm when close enough to that person, but maybe they are corrupted normal storm bearers. Perhaps sometimes a storm bearer can be warped by particularly strong emotions of individuals who die within it. If the emotion is so strong, it will imprint itself on the storm bearer and in doing so, tie their ability to create storms to the emotion of the departed. As such it can only do so within a certain distance of the object of that emotion and will seek them out to fulfill its purpose of causing storms. Thus it pursues the person simplemindedly.

It would also be possible to remove the imprinted emotion. The easiest way is for the subject of the emotion to die, but also other methods exist (the next easiest is to fulfill what caused the emotion. This could be from killing a hated enemy (but falls into the first category, or giving a message, comfort, or some more specific thing to a loved one who would be the target).

Owrtho

Vadin

2010-01-09, 01:47 AM

I was supporting all of the ideas he presented (about clans and houses and nomadic-ness) except for calling it a low magic setting. And yes, you do come off as being incredibly contrary.

As for "Why would someone sell their soul for cantrips?" They wouldn't?:smallconfused:...because they haven't completely sold their soul yet? They may have sold some time of afterlife servitude, but there's no reason they would sell their entire soul right away. A devil is a secret contact who you are regularly negotiating with, "But, sir! If you but lent me a bit more of your power, I might be more able to brave the wastes and go and bring the gifted boy talked about in the Hao'ta clan into our fold!" It's not an all-or-nothing one-time deal, it's a long process of negotiation and power-addiction. The first hit is free, but the next level is gonna cost you some tedious and difficult to obtain spell components that can only be found on the material plane, and after that? Kill an angel, or find out what this rival wizard's devil is having him do.

As for the dead souls part, that was more a replacement for wizard's spellbooks. I always thought they were rather silly, and a jar that holds the soul of an evil wizard who wants to teach you magic and gain your trust so that one day he can trick you into letting him escape by taking over your body is a lot cooler than, "Hey, I'm literate and can use magic!" Before you bash soul jars- demon-possessed swords, a jewel that an ancient hero imprisoned an evil dragon in, and a book of dark spells that want to teach you their secrets are all also valid options (for an example, see the episode of Teen Titans where Raven's spellbook starts talking to her and she ends up learning a bunch of magic but getting tricked into releasing an ancient dragon once she is skilled enough to perform the ritual correctly.).

BRC

2010-01-09, 01:48 AM

Here is an idea.
A special ritual can grant somebody a given amount of magical potential, they have the ability to take, say, 4 levels of sorcerer, but their spell list is pre-determined depending on the ritual used. Which means that certain low-level magics are decently common, since there are known rituals to create people who can cast them. The problem with these rituals is that they have a sharp cap on the magical potential of the recipient. Somebody that gets the Ritual of Warcasting (Blasty spells) can take 4 levels of Sorcerer, but no matter what they do after that, they can't take any more. Their magical potential is strictly capped.

There exist True casters (The PC's), but they are very rare. It's much more likely that and magic you run into was gained by a ritual.

Owrtho

2010-01-09, 01:49 AM

Plus, I hate the idea of using souls to power cantrips and low level spells, or requiring a pact with a demon to cast burning hands. That's just absurd. If you want arcane magic to be rare and come from sources like dead souls and demonic pacts, it should be powerful whenever it's there, because really, who'd trade their soul to a demon to use cantrips?

I think the idea is that you need to trade a soul or the like to become able to do arcane magic. Its the opening cost, not a regular cost to progress from that point or use each spell. Thus while you trade it to lean the cantrips, you could then practice and move on to bigger better spells without further cost (well, might be some, but not on the same level as gaining access to the power to begin with).
Due to such an opening cost however, not many want to use it. Thus it is rare. And those that do use it, likely aren't the kind of people who will be going around helping people (at least not without an exorbitant fee, cuz face it, if they traded their own soul, they likely will be rather cruel as a result. If they traded someone else's soul, then you likely have bigger issues to worry about than the problem you wanted them to help you with).

Edit: Huh, everyone seems to be posting at the same time.

Owrtho

OrangeQuarter

2010-01-09, 01:54 AM

Er. Many peoplewould make pacts with demons or foreign magics for power. In fact, the entire Warlock class is based on that. Plus, the Demon aspect is only a part of it. I'd bet a caretaker would only be using Primal Magic, or IF arcane, Soul-Powah. And, as-we-said-before! This is first level stuff. Not that insane for a low magic setting.

... just saying.

Love the Ideas, Vadin!

And I also love the thoughts on Storm Bearers. What if they pure ones were very strong, and difficult to kill- damadge resistance except towards fire, and Fire is converted to nonlethal. Sort of a non-hostile Tarrasque-of-this-world? I see the Pure Storm Bearers being huge lumbering giants or Ice Elementals that just lumber through the environment completely oblivious to the existance of civilization, on a sort of a yearly pattern that would explain the whole 'storm seasons' things. Almost imporssible to kill, still extremely deadly to try and fend off.

And the Corrupted Stormbearers would be weaker, drained of the connection to Cold that give them power by their newfound connection to human beings. Of course, that would be counter-weighted by the whole 'wanting to kill people' things. And they would still be very dangerous- it could be very interesting to put all the roughness of this world more into context with having to sacrifice a subject of emotion to stop an oncoming Storm Bearer and save the rest of the tribe, rather than 'we had a bad season and don't have enough food, boohoo.'

Owrtho

2010-01-09, 02:08 AM

Well, not sure if a pure storm bearer would be huge, I'd see them more so as seeming like some nondescript thing at the center of the storm. As for the warped ones, they don't so much want to kill people, as they desire to be able to make storms like they're supposed to. Similar to how birds would want to be able to fly. They know that if they're near the person who the emotion is targeted at they will be able to use their ability, and the closer they get the stronger. Thus they hunt them down. They don't understand the fact that they are hazardous or the like, because they themselves can't be killed. They fail to comprehend the idea of death and such so see no harm in trying to be near the individual.
I'd also expect that they can't feel emotions normally (at least not the same way humans and the like do. Most likely they just feel an urge to travel and make storms). Thus when warped, it lets them fee emotions and things they've never experienced before. Some might even after awhile become accustomed to such things and come to desire it. They would likely be ones who have managed to get multiple emotions imprinted on them to the point that those emotions overpower the urge to make storms. They would be the ones that might try killing people, but might also try other things as well. At worst, they may start trying to make storms for the sake of getting more emotions.

Owrtho

BRC

2010-01-09, 02:11 AM

Idea: Truecold and Truecold Winds
A Truecold is a dangerous magical anomaly. Truecolds and permenant features of an area, the main factor being that no fire can be lit in an area affected by Truecold. Any spell with the Fire descriptor is cast at a -10 caster level (minimum zero), if the spell's caster level is reduced to 0 by this effect, the spell does not function. Because the number of spellcasters over 10th level is so rare, most people can be forgiven for believing that no Fire can burn in Truecold, and in every way that will effect them, they are right.

Areas of Truecold are generally well known and marked off with warning labels, only a traveler unfamiliar with the symbols, or unable to see them due to a blizzard, would walk into the Truecold without knowing they could get out before night fell. Many cold resistant creatures use areas of Truecold to set up bases. Many Ice Tyrants build their frozen fortresses in the Truecold.

More dangerous are the rare Truecold Winds, when an especially powerful wind blows through an area of Truecold, it will bring some of the magic with it. The areas the wind blows through are temporarily under the effect of the Truecold, and even the best-shielded flame will not burn. Fortunately, most nomadic shamans have perfected methods of predicting a Truecold wind and guiding their tribe to avoid it.

Truecold winds are dangerous for another reason. Ice-centric creatures love to follow them, attacking humanoids who find themselves unable to protect themselves with fire (Usually the bane of such creatures), a Truecold Wind will often contain a raiding party within it.

Edit: My ritual idea above was just a brain dropping, I'm not attached to it. However, I do think there should be some powerful spell casters, most of whom are probably Ice Tyrants.

OrangeQuarter

2010-01-09, 02:14 AM

... Wow. That's awesome.
And really fitting.

Though, I'm intruiging as to what a fully emotionalized Neutral Good (As opposed to what I would assume would be an origional True Neutral) Storm Bearer would do? Attack Evil Ice Tyrants? Redirect Pure's? Hmm.

BRC

2010-01-09, 02:23 AM

I Wonder, if somebody who really, really wants vengeance on somebody might intentionally seek out a storm bearer, and die in the blizzard so the hatred gets imprinted on the Storm Bearer, causing them to hunt down the subject of their vengeance.

Owrtho

2010-01-09, 02:30 AM

Well, I'd expect that a storm bearer's ability to produce storms is tied to their emotion (normally the only one they have is the urge to produce storms, but once warped...). When they are warped, they tend not to be able to fully understand the emotion, as they are so foreign the only know it exactly as the received it (thus only toward the one individual it was directed at). Thus they can't experience it in enough strength to make storms without being near the individual. They also lack the ability to understand that anything might find storms not to be desirable (hence you couldn't convince one not to make storms, but similarly they wouldn't care or become angry if you melted them down to escape the storm). However, if one starts accumulating enough emotions (somewhat difficult as the emotions imprinted on them tend to be much stronger than their normal urge and in being such cause much worse storms when they get close to the individual, which usually causes their death and the loss of that emotion), they start being able to piece together the emotional spectrum and experience the emotions on their own (mind this requires multiple similar emotions being imprinted, and all of the targets need to stay alive, and before that they can only have more emotions imprinted when close enough to cause the death of the target). As for the few that do have this occur however, they become able to start making storms on their own again whenever they experience a strong emotion. The issue again however is that a storm bearer is completely incapable understanding why they shouldn't make storms whenever possible, which means that any time they experience strong emotion they'll be making storms, and likely they'll be rather bad.

Most ice tyrants likely have means of weathering the storms or wouldn't be effected. A particularly cruel one might even like having storm bearers around as it would make them difficult to approach.

I Wonder, if somebody who really, really wants vengeance on somebody might intentionally seek out a storm bearer, and die in the blizzard so the hatred gets imprinted on the Storm Bearer, causing them to hunt down the subject of their vengeance.

I'm sure this happens sometimes. The issue is it isn't a sure thing. The emotion has to be very strong (to the point of over riding all their other emotions), and then there is the fact that it still requires some luck (if its good or bad depends on ones viewpoint) for it to imprint. There is also the issue of that if they're vengeance is fueled by something like say "You hurt my precious sister and now she's injured both physically and emotionally," it might just turn out that it is the love (or desire to protect) your sister that gets imprinted, thus making her the target (sorta backfiring on you). None the less, there are certain to be some who do it (though the ones with the best chance are those with nothing left but their desire for vengeance (ie. all their friends and family are already dead).

Edit: Also, are we going with the idea that all storms are powered by a storm bearer, or just some?

Owrtho

The Tygre

2010-01-09, 05:11 AM

I was personally thinking that some of the more dangerous storms could be powered by Xixecals.

Owrtho

2010-01-09, 05:17 AM

The Tygre

2010-01-09, 05:37 AM

Maybe they are responsible for some, but storm bearers would likely be the majority. Then again maybe they're what you get if a storm bearer manages to become evil (via multiple negative emotions being imprinted on it).

Owrtho

That's... actually kind of a cool (GET IT?!?!) idea. I wasn't talking about common storms. We are talking about Xixecal (s?), Epic Abominations, here. But maybe like, at the edge of the world or far out at sea or in forbidden mountains, they're legendary hyper-blizzards or snow hurricanes or stuff. Just somewhere we can put 'Here There Be Dragons' on the map without having to resort to incompleteness.

Admiral Squish

2010-01-09, 06:03 AM

I read a book once. It was about the world slowly freezing as city-sized snow-slugs crept down from hibernation on the north pole, spreading their wintry grip as they went. I think a coity-sized snowslug should definitely be a beastie here.

FlamingKobold

2010-01-09, 10:35 AM

milski: You seem to assume that I'm against you. However, my idea was a third party thing that I came up with after reading a 3 page debate.

Truecold and Stormbearers: Really like them. I need to get going soon, so I'll get to specifics later.

Magic: Eh, I think we sjould make more aof a mechanical ban on high powered casters and martial adepts. Maybe adept-level casting at the very highest. I like Primal and Spirit, and think we should just have those two (as well as making a druid and shaman class.) This is both thematic to the setting and makes it very different than other classes.

The druid should be something that is much more thematic. I think we should combine the druid and barbarian, but nerf spellcasting. For the most part, put in a rage-like feature (they are primal after all) but not as powerful (Or we could increase the power of the barbarian too) and wildshape. I know wildshape gets super OP very fast, but a couple of changes would make it a lot better. Like, you can turn into the forms of your animal companion(s) plus one or two others. Moreover, they should get at least one companion, maybe more as they level, to keep the champion of the wild things. This is also because i think it would be totally awesome to have a wanderer surrounded by a pack of wolves trekking across an icy tundra, and then the lone person turns into a wolf and joins the pack for battle. With all of thesse abilities Primal magic shouldn't be that powerful. Mainly buffing for themselves and their companions, and possibly some blasty things.

Shaman could go one of three way:
1. A reflavored, nerfed divine based spellcasting thing (Kind of like the divine adept from eberron who is described as a spirit shaman guy).
2. Take a lot of the spellcasting out of the spirit shaman class from Complete divine and add in a few more spirity abilities.
3. Soulmelds.

I kind of one of the first two (especially the second one. I think we can add enough abilities to be able to take spellcasting down to topping at 4th level spells or so) and I would be happy to put in the work to make all of the magic systems and classes and then post them here, if people want me to.

Sintanan

2010-01-09, 05:38 PM

Might I suggest the following for playable races?
* Human - I like the post above that says humans are 2nd-class citizens under dwarves.
* Elf Glacier Dwarves (Frostburn)
* Dwarf - The volcano-dwellers.
* Half-Elf
* Halfling Tundra Halfling (Frostburn)
* Gnome Uldra (Frostburn)
* Half-Orc Neanderthal (Frostburn)

To replace the half-elves, I suggest my valkov (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137146). Some fitting flavor to the world and dropping both the Blessing feat chain and the powerful build racial feat would allow the valkov to fit a role of skirmisher in the colder lands that a tundra halfling would have hard trouble in.

Our group is planning on a snowball-ish world for our next campaign, and the above recommendations are the common races we're using.

Owrtho

2010-01-09, 05:55 PM

I think the humans would only be second class citizens in the Dwarven cities. As for the nomads, I expect the Dwarves have very little influence there due to most living in their cities to avoid the cold.

Owrtho

FlamingKobold

2010-01-09, 06:12 PM

I like the Valkov, I saw the thread and think that they're pretty cool. I think that the primary nomads are going to be humans and tundra halflings. They have good relations with one another. I think that Valkovs and Neanderthals would dwell near dwarves, in northern and far eastern mountain ranges. (I generally envision a primarily plainsy continent with mountains along much of the coast, by the way)

However, I think elves could still exists in pine forests, being primarily druids (the more refined spellcaster). I also think something like an ice troll would be a pretty sweet player race. It would be kind of like an orc, with powerful build and weilding primarily greatspears. They would have cold resistance 5 or 10, making them great hunters on the tundra.

So a few questions, to dictate what I'll be doing tonight:

1. Do people like my magic suggestion in my latest post? Especially Owrtho, beccause i explicitly disagreed with him. (Not because I don't like you, of course :smallsmile: )

2. Ice trolls as a playable race?

3. Do other kinds of dragons exist? I can see white as primary, blues in mountain tops, red near volcanoes, and everyone else undcerground. Also, where do silver dragons fit into this? They're also ice dragons, and much more powerful than the whites.... Wouldn't they be the primary rulers?

4. Do we want a specialty demon-binding class? I think it might be pretty cool.

5. Does anyone have a way to make a map? And is really good at it? That way we can start statting out cities, intercity relations, etc.

6. What classes do we want in the setting? If low magic, then probably no martial adepts. If martial adepts, what disciplines? Do we want a special magewright-esque class for caretakers? Or should we make it a prestige class?

7. Elves? A pine forest where they all live would be cool.

I can stat a ton of things out, but I can't make maps... It would be superawesome if someone could try, to at least get a base idea.

Owrtho

2010-01-09, 06:27 PM

Well, I don't see any problems with you magic idea, and I don't recall you ever explicitly disagreeing with me.
As for ice trolls, it could work.
I'm sure there are other kinds of dragons, but I don't think any would be the main rulers, just ice tyrants.
If we want a demon binding class, maybe we could just use the binder? Might take some custom vestiges though.
Elves could live in pine forests.

Also, on the magic issue, if we want to still have arcane magic, maybe we could use my idea from before that the snow saps arcane energy, thus making it near useless outside and the like (and easy to counter).

Owrtho

Sintanan

2010-01-09, 06:39 PM

@FlamingKobold
1. I'll get caught up on everything in this thread shortly, so I can't comment here yet.
2. What/where are ice trolls? :smallconfused:
3. Whites would be common dragons, but other dragons could exist. The use of dragon psychoses in Dragon #313 (Nameless, Ravening, Riddled, Spellhoarding, Wandering) could be used on the non-whites/silvers as a means of making dragon encounters unique.
4. I really got to get caught up on this thread... :smallfrown:
5. A good basis for a snowball world might be Chris Wayan's Shiveria (http://www.worlddreambank.org/S/SHIVERIA.HTM). Just make it... well... icier. I like Chris's worlds, but the ecology given for them annoy me... how is it that every planet lives in perfect harmony?
6. Seems to me that this 'dying' world has a bit in common with the Dark Sun campaign, just more wintry. A normal-magic world with stunted fire descriptor magic and the ability to suck the warmth out of the world using a mechanic akin to Dark Sun?
7. Elves would be possible in pine forests.

FlamingKobold

2010-01-09, 07:06 PM

Owrtho: See, that's where i disagreed with you :smallfrown: I suggested scrapping arcane magic (and maybe giving the dragons other perks) and instead doing primal and spirit magic. Sorry if that was miscommunicated.

Ice trolls could be easily homebrewed :smallsmile:

Demon-binding: That's what we have to decide. We can make a demon binding class that binds the essence of demons (vestiges) or we could have a more summoning oriented class that actually binds real demons.

Shiveria: I think we might need a more custom world, especially for map-making purposes. We could, however, just be like "Dwarf city where texas is supposed to be." But I'm not sure that would be as good...

The Tygre

2010-01-09, 08:08 PM

And now you speak of ice demons, and possibly ice demon lords and princes. Now you're speaking my language. :smallcool:

Sintanan

2010-01-09, 08:15 PM

While --obviously-- you would want a custom world, I just figured that the layout and information about Shivera would be a good starting point in case the dreaded writer's block showed up. Chris Wayan goes into a lot of detail on what types of climates would pop up, where, and why.

I still suggest borrowing the concept of "tainted" magic from Dark Sun if classic magic is still used... a spellcaster can empower their spells by destroying the environment a little bit more through permanently freezing things (possibly the Truecold concept by BRC above)...
Gives the elves and druids something to worry about and an excuse to get outside, rather than just hiding in their pine forests. :smallbiggrin:

BRC

2010-01-09, 08:23 PM

Maybe Truecold is the result of somebody using superpowered firemagic. A Caster wants to summon up some especially hot flames (Considering how vulnerable many things will be to fire, that's probably the primary offensive magic used), it works, but ends up causing a vacuum of some sort, leading to an area of Truecold.

FlamingKobold

2010-01-09, 08:55 PM

Maybe we should make a few threads and put links in the OP. I think that if we just keep talking about all sorts of different things in one thread, it gets confusing. Then we can talk about the general setting here, and specifics (Magic systems, truecold, geography, etc) individually. Also, here's a preliminary version of my suggested binding system, which I could also make a base class for. (which can be moved to separate thread if we want to.

There is a 4 step process to a permanent binding
1. Preparation: A location for the ritual to take place must be found and prepared. This involves drawing intricate magical symbols in and around a magic circle. The circle and symbols must be drawn with specially prepared materials whose cost is the target CR^4. (Can be changed depending on the specifics of the campaigns average wealth)

2. When the location is dark (no lighter than moonlight) candles are lit around the circle, which is itself lit on fire. The binder (and any number of assistants, see below) begin the ritual, which requires knowing the name of the target (pretty easy to research). After one hour, the target is plane-shifted to the center of the circle.

3. Opposed rolls occur (feats can have effect on this. will be added later) between the binder and the target. The Binder rolls 1d20+level+int mod vs the target’s 1d20+CR+wis mod. The Binder gain’s bonuses from specific items and from having more assistants (see below).

4. If the binder wins, then he gains full control over the creatures mind, as though they were dominated. This is a permanent effect. If the target wins, several effects can occur, as given by the table below.

{table=header]|failed by 5 or less| failed by 6-10 | failed by 10+
Binder | knocked prone| prone, 1d4 damage/CR | stunned, 1d6 damage/CR
Assistants| no effect | knocked prone | prone, 1d4 damage/CR
Demon |1d6+2 round | 1d4+1 round | 1 round[/table]

Note: the “Demon” row gives how long the demon stays on the material plane before being sent back to where it came from.
Note: No matter what the outcome, all materials use are burnt and cannot be reused.

ASSISTANTS:
All assistants must have at least one level of binder. The maximum number of assistants is given by the binder’s level/2, rounded up. Each assistant must make a DC 14 intelligence check. If unsuccessful, nothing happens. If successful, the primary binder gains a +2 bonus on his opposed roll (cumulative).

Owrtho

2010-01-09, 09:12 PM

I wasn't saying I opposed the idea of completely scraping arcane, I was just saying that if the vote goes in favor of it remaining, or if people using the setting want to allow characters that use it, that would be a possible way to keep it from being too powerful.

As for making a new demon binding class versus using the binder, I'd point out that vestiges is just the flavor they're given in the source. To change that we could just replace the fluff and make it so that instead of being unique vestiges, they are types of demons. That said, I don't see a problem with making a new class either.
One thing I'd note though is I'm not sure using fire to summon the demons would be the best way to have it done. I would expect that most demons are more attuned to cold and ice. Then again that might be why fire is used (to keep them in check).

Owrtho

FlamingKobold

2010-01-09, 09:22 PM

Yep, that second bit is the fluff explanation for the fire. Also, the image of a guy in a dark room summoning demons by candlelight is just so cool.

What do people think of my previous broad suggestions for druid and shaman classes?

Ice Troll

Abilities: +4 strength, +2 constitution, -2 intelligence, -2 charisma. Ice trolls are strong and hardy, but they lack the intellectual resources of other nature and avoid social situations, preferring to solve them with spears.
• Size: Medium. As medium sized creatures, ice trolls receive no bonuses or penalties based on their size.
• Base Land Speed: 40 feet. As natural hunters, ice trolls need to keep up with their quarry.
• Powerful Build
• Low-light vision.
• Racial weapon familiarity: Ice trolls treat Greatspears as martial weapons and are treated as having the short-haft feat while wielding a spear (but not any other polearm).
• Cold Resistance: 10
• Natural Armor: +2. Ice trolls have very thick hides.
• Automatic Languages: Common, Troll. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Giant, Orc, Valkovin.
• Favored Class: Scout (Maybe barbarian? But I think that makes them too close to the valkov)
• Level adjustment: +1 (This makes them pretty playable)

Look good?

Sintanan

2010-01-09, 09:47 PM

Well, if you get rid of the valkov racial for powerful build and swap their favored class to scout they fit the role of skirmisher race more than brawler race... what with the speed increase. Then there's no problem making the ice trolls barbarians or making the valkov/ice trolls too similar.

Like I pointed out in the comments with the valkov, my group just needs them to cover a range of options which is why they get the blessing racials for wings and the strength racial for powerful build.

FlamingKobold

2010-01-09, 09:56 PM

Oh, you just reminded me: I meant to give the ice trolls powerful build, to make the +1 LA more warranted. And so that they can weild greatspears one handed.

BRC

2010-01-09, 09:57 PM

Can I repeat my demand that the setting include knights on Mooseback.

FlamingKobold

2010-01-09, 10:05 PM

I think Elk would be more thematic :) Also, that is easy with a ranger (With the mounted Combat track) or druids. If you want, I can make a specialty "Knight of the Sacred Elk" prestige class with an accompanying organization.

BRC

2010-01-09, 10:11 PM

I think Elk would be more thematic :) Also, that is easy with a ranger (I'm thinking about making a, outrider combat track. I have an idea for a little goblin race that rides worgs :smallsmile:) or druids. If you want, I can make a specialty "Knight of the Sacred Elk" prestige class with an accompanying organization.
Sounds good.

Also, I'm going to start chewing on some ideas for the Shoreline civilizations.

FlamingKobold

2010-01-09, 10:14 PM

I don't think that the drawbacks to arcane magic mentioned above are necessary if we limit arcane magic just to the magewright-esque caretakers. They don't have offensive spells, they just fix things and can occasionally cast CLW. Maybe we should take the magewright casting, and then make it spells per week, to make it so that they won't just use CLW all the time.

People. Seriously. How do we want to do Primal and spirit magic? I have a post on the previous page that has suggestions for both, but I don't want to fully do something so significant to the setting with out the input of others. Especially how do you guys want the Shaman's spirit-based abilities? In the form of spells or like the class features of the spirit shaman class? We need to figure out how the magic works before we can do much else.

Alright, you should start a new thread for them and post a link. I'll do the same when I finish the Knight of the Sacred Elk. It's only going to be 5 levels, max, by the way.

Edit: Nevermind about the elk. The prestige class will be the Order of the Moose Initiate. Here's the moose that will be used (can be taken as an animal companion by druid 4th level or higher.)

Moose
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 7d8+28 (59 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flatfooted 14
Base Attack: +5
Attack: Head butt +12 melee (2d6+6, crit 19-20); or hoof +11 melee (1d8+3)
Full Attack: Head butt +10 melee (2d6+6, crit 19-20), 2 hooves +9 melee (1d8+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 12
Skills: Listen +6, Spot +4, Swim +10
Feats: Alertness, Improved Critical (head butt), Weapon Focus (head butt)
Environment: Cold Plains
Organization: Solitary or pack (2-5)
Challenge Rating: 3

The Tygre

2010-01-10, 12:41 AM

Moose could be more like tanks; not as fast as war-elks, but can cover more kinds of terrain and take more hits.

And FK's right. We do need to get around to the different kinds of magic.

FlamingKobold

2010-01-10, 01:06 AM

That's what the dire moose (Which is also totally statted) is for.

Everybody who is involved: vote.

1. Yes or No, this is how we want the druid:

The druid should be something that is much more thematic. I think we should combine the druid and barbarian, but nerf spellcasting. For the most part, put in a rage-like feature (they are primal after all) but not as powerful (Or we could increase the power of the barbarian too) and wildshape. I know wildshape gets super OP very fast, but a couple of changes would make it a lot better. Like, you can turn into the forms of your animal companion(s) plus one or two others. Moreover, they should get at least one companion, maybe more as they level, to keep the champion of the wild things. This is also because i think it would be totally awesome to have a wanderer surrounded by a pack of wolves trekking across an icy tundra, and then the lone person turns into a wolf and joins the pack for battle. With all of thesse abilities Primal magic shouldn't be that powerful. Mainly buffing for themselves and their companions, and possibly some blasty things.

2. Vote A, B, or C for how spirit magic and the shaman class works.

A. A reflavored, nerfed divine based spellcasting thing (Kind of like the divine adept from eberron who is described as a spirit shaman guy).
B. Take a lot of the spellcasting out of the spirit shaman class from Complete divine and add in a few more spirity abilities.
3. Soulmelds.

I kind of one of the first two (especially the second one. I think we can add enough abilities to be able to take spellcasting down to topping at 4th level spells or so) and I would be happy to put in the work to make all of the magic systems and classes and then post them here, if people want me to.

3. Demon binder class: Yes or No? Preliminary Idea:

There is a 4 step process to a permanent binding
1. Preparation: A location for the ritual to take place must be found and prepared. This involves drawing intricate magical symbols in and around a magic circle. The circle and symbols must be drawn with specially prepared materials whose cost is the target CR^4. (Can be changed depending on the specifics of the campaigns average wealth)
2. When the location is dark (no lighter than moonlight) candles are lit around the circle, which is itself lit on fire. The binder (and any number of assistants, see below) begin the ritual, which requires knowing the name of the target (pretty easy to research). After one hour, the target is plane-shifted to the center of the circle.
3. Opposed rolls occur (feats can have effect on this. will be added later) between the binder and the target. The Binder rolls 1d20+level+int mod vs the target’s 1d20+CR+wis mod. The Binder gain’s bonuses from specific items and from having more assistants (see below).
4. If the binder wins, then he gains full control over the creatures mind, as though they were dominated. This is a permanent effect. If the target wins, several effects can occur, as given by the table below.

{table=header]|failed by 5 or less| failed by 6-10 | failed by 10+
Binder | knocked prone| prone, 1d4 damage/CR | stunned, 1d6 damage/CR
Assistants| no effect | knocked prone | prone, 1d4 damage/CR
Demon |1d6+2 round | 1d4+1 round | 1 round[/table]

Note: the “Demon” row gives how long the demon stays on the material plane before being sent back to where it came from.
Note: No matter what the outcome, all materials use are burnt and cannot be reused.

ASSISTANTS:
All assistants must have at least one level of binder. The maximum number of assistants is given by the binder’s level/2, rounded up. Each assistant must make a DC 14 intelligence check. If unsuccessful, nothing happens. If successful, the primary binder gains a +2 bonus on his opposed roll (cumulative).

4. Yes or No: The only arcane spellcasting is that of the caretakers, which have a magewrighty feel.

Owrtho

2010-01-10, 01:41 AM

I would say:
Yes
B
No (we should have the class, but I don't think it should summon up the demons, just get power from them)
No (we should either not have it or make some kind of class for it. After all, Caretaker isn't a permanent job, it's temporary).

Owrtho

The Tygre

2010-01-10, 02:29 AM

I would say:
Yay
C
Yay
Nay

IcarusWings

2010-01-10, 11:59 AM

i'd go

Yes

C

No(see Owrtho's reason)

Yes

Also, if the target of a stormbearer dies, I don't think the stormbearer should become pure again. I'd go for the whole "doomed to wander the earth forever" style; stormless, but still with potent wind and cold supernatural abilities. You could even make a race/template/class thing based around wind/ice magic.

Merlin

P.S: I'm all for the Mammoth dudes(but make them just normal mammoth-men instead were-folk)

Owrtho

2010-01-10, 12:15 PM

One thing I'd note, while demon powered magic shouldn't regularly involve summoning the demons, I could see it requiring that to gain powers from a specific demon.
It might be interesting if there were various demons, each providing different spells, but you had to summon and best that demon in some way to gain access to them (could be via combat, riddles, or the like). Then spells could be limited by the demon your channeling energy from for the day (might not be limited by days, but it could take something like a 2 to 3 hour ritual to change which demon you've made submit it giving you power).

Edit: Also there are reasons why I chose to have storm bearers become pure again. In part it would mean that even if it's common for people to feel strong emotion before death, often it will be directed at those nearby, thus they are also dying. This means while it might be common to have them get emotions imprinted, it usually doesn't matter as the targets die right after removing the imprinted emotion.
Also I'm of the mind that the emotion needs its target to keep it tied to the land of the living. If the target dies, the emotion looses what anchors it and thus leaves. This might not be the case for a storm bearer that has managed to start feeling emotion due to a large number of imprinted ones, but in most cases they are largely unable to feel emotion and thus it if only by the emotion having the anchor point (its target) that it is able to remain strong enough to impact the storm bearer.

Owrtho

FlamingKobold

2010-01-10, 12:21 PM

Wait, owrtho, isn't that what the vestiges basically are? Refluff them a bit to make the binding check something about a battle of mental wills, and you're set :smallsmile:

Okay, it seems apparent that we need to clarify who the caretakers are, in light of

Caretaker isn't a permanent job, it's temporary.

I was under the assumption (in my idea on page 3) that at the clanmeets, people were suggested to be elevated to be caretakers, it was voted on, and then they accept or decline the promotion. Then they get assigned to a house and stay as a caretaker (but may chage houses) until they die, quit (very uncommon, and they can lose their abilities), are impeached (cast out of region and stripped of abilities) or are elevated to Grand Caretaker.

What are others' views on the subject. I like the thought of it being a lifelong position, because being a caretaker demands more respect, power etc and is more of a lifestyle than a job.

BRC

2010-01-10, 12:22 PM

Maybe different Types of demons or entities for the different schools.

Manipulative Demons give you Enchantment
Wrathful demons give you Evocation.
Protective spirits give you Abjuration.
Spirits of Nature give you Conjuration
Spirits of Civilization give you Transmutation
Spirits of Death/ Death Demons give you Necromacy

FlamingKobold

2010-01-10, 12:31 PM

Do people like the idea off the druid only being able to wildshape into the form of their animal companion? Here are a couple other things that can be done pretty easily.

1. Normal wildshape (Probs not good)
2. Actually limiting it to animals (remember, there are only so many tundra animals)
3. Only turn into the shape of your animal companion (It would just be awesome)
4. Same as number 3, but you still get to increase in size, however, your animal companion also grows when you do this. (A man and a medium sized wolf suddenly become two large sized wolves? Awesome.)

I like number 4 the best.

Also, viewpoints on being able to get multiple companions? Wither all of the same type, or of different animals? (Again, dude with multiple wolves, then joins them)

MY PREFERENCES:

I like number four, and that they can only gain animal companions of one kind.

Note: The only companions that would be feasible in this environment are the dire rat, eagle, owl and wolf.

Owrtho

2010-01-10, 12:37 PM

Wait, owrtho, isn't that what the vestiges basically are? Refluff them a bit to make the binding check something about a battle of mental wills, and you're set :smallsmile:

Not exactly. A binder channels the vestige itself (not it's power). This means that the vestige is able to do things like influence emotion, as well as other things. I'm saying they should instead channel the power of various demons they have bested, but normally can't channel more than a few. This could be done by assigning short spell lists (possibly with a few spells for each level), to various types of demons (it might be done as BRC suggested, but I was thinking of it being more thematic, such as an Ice demon having multiple ice spells, a fire demon fire spells, some might have other kinds of spells based on what kind of demon they are), this would make a class that can choose between various sections of spell lists, rather than completely choosing what spells they have for the day.

Okay, it seems apparent that we need to clarify who the caretakers are, in light of

I was under the assumption (in my idea on page 3) that at the clanmeets, people were suggested to be elevated to be caretakers, it was voted on, and then they accept or decline the promotion. Then they get assigned to a house and stay as a caretaker (but may chage houses) until they die, quit (very uncommon, and they can lose their abilities), are impeached (cast out of region and stripped of abilities) or are elevated to Grand Caretaker.

What are others' views on the subject. I like the thought of it being a lifelong position, because being a caretaker demands more respect, power etc and is more of a lifestyle than a job.

I think that caretaker should be a temporary position. One that is seen as something of a great Honor, but is divvied into sections between clanmeets. At which point they may choose to continue or resign. The idea is that many of the young men and the like would try to prove them self worthy of being a caretaker, become one for a session or two, then go back to their clan and treat their former position kinda like a badge of Honor, as well as proof of their skills (not to mention they'd likely learn some skills).
That said, there could be a more permanent sub group of caretakers for those that wish to dedicate their life to the job rather than returning to their clan. These might learn some magic and usually only me one to a House, while the rest are the more temporary ones that tend to do most of the hunting/manual labor (not that the permanent ones don't help, just there is only one of them, so they can't do as much as the 3 to 9 other guys, but can do more notable stuff via their minor magic).

Edit: On the druid thing, I think I like number 4 best of whats there, but would have some suggestions.
Rather than just change sizes, I'd say maybe give the ability to gain templates such as a a certain level being able to turn into a dire wolf or the like. Also, I might suggest in some varying forms, but maybe it would come with the ability to have multiple animal companions. If so it might be balanced by having you only able to buff the companions that match you when you change forms. Thus if you have a wolf and a hawk, and become a dire wolf, your would gains the dire template, but your hawk doesn't (if you became a dire hawk it would gain the template and not the wolf). Thus you could choose multiple companions of the same type so they would all become stronger, or chose different types of companions that you would have versatility.

Owrtho

IcarusWings

2010-01-10, 12:37 PM

Note: The only companions that would be feasible in this environment are the dire rat, eagle, owl and wolf.

Well are we having polar bears, arctic fox, mammoths, any of that stuff? Maybe even an orca.

Owrtho

2010-01-10, 12:50 PM

From Frostburn they had the following animal companions:
1st+: dog, riding dog, gyrfalcon, raven, snowy owl, wolf
4th+: black bear, branta, lage shark, snow leopard, wolverine
7th+: brown bear, dire wolf, dire wolverine, megaloceros, terror bird
10th+: polar bear, glyptodon, smilodon, huge shark, orca whale
13th+: dire bear, dire elk, giant octopus, woolly mammoth
16th+: dire rhinoceros, dire shark, dire tiger, megatherium, giant squid, zeuglodon

I'd suggest that some changes be made to the list, but most of those seem fine.

Owrtho

FlamingKobold

2010-01-10, 12:52 PM

Merlin: I was talking about at first level. Also, You can only choose a new companion when your old one dies, so we should focus primarily on the originals.

I also believe that we shouldn't have more powerful companions, seeing as that is the purpose of the whole "when you wildshape, your companion becomes stronger too" thing. I do however, think we should make a "tundra bear," a medium sized, CR 2 bear thatcan be taken as a companion. Thoughts? I can make the tundra bear, if you want.

Edit: Owrtho: Yeah, I meant raven, not eagle. My bad. I also took out riding dog, because it woud suck to wildshape into one of them, but we could do it. Is gyrfalcon from Frostburn?

IcarusWings

2010-01-10, 01:01 PM

Fair enough. A tundra bear would be cool though :)

Merlin

Owrtho

2010-01-10, 01:03 PM

I agree with only the low level companions for the reason you mentioned. the gyrfalcon seems to use the same stats as the hawk, but is an arctic version (just like the snow owl is an arctic version of the owl).

A tundra bear would be handy, given that we won't have high level companions. Might also suggest looking into some other arctic creatures for possible companions (like penguins, arctic foxes, snow hairs, etc.).

Anyways, I'd say the idea you mentioned before for multiple animal companions could be good, but still should be limited to the first level ones (unless we did something like if you can have up to 2 companions, and you have lost both, you can choose to have 1 higher power one instead of 2 weaker ones).

Owrtho

BRC

2010-01-10, 01:03 PM

Another Idea.

The best way to gain access to Arcane magic is to make deals with certain entities. These entities span the entire alignment span, but some are harder to contact than others.

Some entities can be called by lighting some candles, drawing a circle on the floor, and saying their name. Others require you to go to a certain place and call their name (Like a Fire spirit in a volcano), others will seek you out of you undergo a vigil.

The point is, once you have established contact with an Entity, you need to make a Deal with them. The primary way this is done is to hunt down an entity that can grant you the spells you need and shares you're alignment (Want to be a Caretaker, find an NG Crafter Spirit and promise it that, if it gives you it's power, you will use that power to help the Clans by keeping the Houses in repair). But, sometimes you are unable to find an entity you can make a mutually beneficial deal with, there is always the cohersive method. You make contact with an entity you disagree with, and proceed to beat it's face in until it is willing to accept the deal "You give me power, and in exchange I let you live". This is tricky, and is usually done with considerable preparation and assitance.

FlamingKobold

2010-01-10, 01:24 PM

On the topic of caretakers:

The problem is that we differ on the fundamental premiseo of what the caretaker should be. You seem to want to think of it as just some job that people want to do. Something prestiges; an honor. A group that people want to be a part of. That latter part, that's what I agree with. However, with that power and honor come responsibility. These people are in charge of preserving the lives of hundred of people every month. This isn't just some job, it's an ideal that you devote your life to. To allow people to just step in and then step out degrades the position. The only way to make sure that the most qualified and devoted people take the job, it needs to be made a lifelong position. Therefore, if it's something that people devote their life to and swear an oath to uphold duties, it is okay, in my mind, to give them a special prestige class.

The only entry requirements would really be
Alignment: Any non-evil.
Special: Must be chosen by a clanmeet to take the position of caretaker.

On arcane magic: You need to think of this in the context of the world. This is a gritty, hard-core, almost unlivable environment. If people can get higher than 3rd level spells or so (and even those are very powerful, in some cases) there would be no need for the houses, and it would ruin the idea of it being inhospitable. I like the idea of the only arcane magic being related to the caretakers or summoning. The powers of the binder are good too. But at the point that we have spell slots, I think it's too magical. Maybe we could make a warlockish class. That would be thematically appropriate, methinks.

BRC

2010-01-10, 01:34 PM

I personally like my "Deal with an entity" method of arcane magic. Each entity has a set list of spells it can grant you, and the weaker spells are much more common. Entities also rarely grant you power on the condition of they simply agree with you, it's much more likely they require a sacrifice or a specific promise, and even then, they will often only grant you that power for a limited period of time. If you call upon a spirit of vengeance, and ask it for power in order to avenge your family, it may agree, but if you use the power too many times in ways that do not directly support your vengeance, you lose it. Also, once you avenge your family, the deal is fulfilled and the power is gone.
And if we want to limit access to certain spells, we just make the entities capable of granting those spells very very very rare.
Also, I wrote something up about a wizard contacting an Entity.

“Maratok the Housebuilder, I call upon you, with the sweat of my brow and the labor of my hands”
Korlan didn’t expect it to work. The first Calling never did, Maratok was a proud spirit, he would need to impress him first, so he got to work. He looked at one of the wind battered walls, yanked out all the rotten planks, and replaced them with fresh ones.
Korlan called again, it was important to do so after each task was completed.
“Maratok the Housebuilder, I call upon you, with the sweat of my brow and the labor of my hands”
Again, no response, Korlan reached for his brush and began covering the wood with a thick coat of Houseblubber, a sticky, oily tar that would keep the heat in and the cold out. Once that was done, he did not even bother stopping, instead simply saying the words again while he began putting another layer of wood over the Houseblubber.
“Maratok the Housebuilder, I call upon you, with the sweat of my brow and the labor of my hands”
And so it continued. When that wall section was done, he moved onto the next, until he ran out of wood. Korlan was, by this point, exhausted, but the Vigil must continue, so he put on his thick fur coat and stepped out of the House, making for the woods.
Upon arriving, he almost turned back, his mind numbed by fatigue and his fingers chill by the cold. He could barely remember what he was doing there. But there was an axe in his hand, and a tall, stout tree in front of him. Without thinking he worked, hacking away at it until it fell. With a crash he felt a sigh of satisfaction, but felt he was forgetting something. He had completed a task, there was something he was supposed to do. Words he was supposed to say. With his lungs stinging, he spoke.
“Maratok the Housebuilder, I call upon you, with the sweat of my brow and the labor of my hands”
And then, exhausted, he fell to the snow, there he would rest, he should go back, or he should keep working…why had he been working. He forgot, until a deep voice spoke.
“Korlan of the Neeshoal Clan, you need not bow before me. I have felt the sweat of your brow and seen the labor of your hands and declared it good. I ask, why did you call upon me.
Korlan rose, in front of him there was a figure, it looked to be a well muscled man clad in a thick coat over a deerskin shirt and trousers. In his hands he held a hammer, and on his back was a pack full of wood. No matter what Korlan did, he couldn’t quite make out a face. His fatigue was replaced by a surge of adrenaline, and he knew what to do.
“Honored Spirit, I called upon you to request a portion of your power.”
The spirit responded in a booming voice. “If I grant you this power, what shall you do with it?”
“I shall join the Caretakers. I shall build and repair the Houses, I shall serve the Clans. As proof of my determination, I offer the sweat of my brow, as proof of my skill, I offer the works of my hands”.
Though he could see the spirit’s face, he could feel it’s smile. Maratok reached down and helped Korlan to his feet. As the spirit touched him, he felt strength and vitality flowing through his limbs once again. The cold air seemed to warm, and his body ceased it’s complaints.
“ I hear your terms, and I find them good. You shall have my power, and with it, you shall built and repair and aid the clans.”
“Thank you honored spirit, so I shall”.

Edit: Described above is just one of the ways to get power from an entity. I might write up descriptions of the other main ones (Specific Goal, Trade, or Cohersion)

Vadin

2010-01-10, 01:42 PM

MEGAPOST.

Magic: Eh, I think we sjould make more aof a mechanical ban on high powered casters and martial adepts.

...I would be happy to put in the work to make all of the magic systems and classes and then post them here, if people want me to.

I disagree on the basis that casters are cool, big evil wizards who you accidentally summon from the past are cool, and high-level martial adepts are so much more fun to play than high-level fighters that it's not even funny.

That aside, I'm a primarily 4e guy, and when I want to put martial adept things in my 4e I let the fighter/rogue/ranger choose a path of powers that thematically fits a discipline and give those powers a little boost, like the option to deal energy damage, a bonus to attack rolls, a penalty on an enemy's defenses, etc.

If you want to brew up the less magical druid and shaman, I fully support that and will help make sure it stays in flavor.

2. Ice trolls as a playable race?

3. Do other kinds of dragons exist?

4. Do we want a specialty demon-binding class? I think it might be pretty cool.

6. What classes do we want in the setting? If low magic, then probably no martial adepts. If martial adepts, what disciplines? Do we want a special magewright-esque class for caretakers? Or should we make it a prestige class?

2. Ice trolls would be an awesome monster. Trollspawn, a race of troll-descended humans who are less troll sized and more intelligent than there forebears but still rather resilient might be a little easier to swallow than a whole race of trolls who aren't still troll-y.

3. OF COURSE DRAGONS EXIST!:smalltongue: No, but seriously, yeah, dragons are totally awesome. Strange dragon variants are also cool.

4. Yes, and a binder that changes his vestige once every full moon or somesuch instead of every day might be a little more thematically appropriate.

6. Dude, yes. Again, martial adepts are so much more fun than normal boring martial characters. They are also good ways to represent strong oral and martial traditions and/or just characters who fight and have the capability to produce cool effects.

Also, on the magic issue, if we want to still have arcane magic, maybe we could use my idea from before that the snow saps arcane energy, thus making it near useless outside and the like (and easy to counter).

That works pretty well (especially with the 'Your fire spell kills the world around you and makes the next fire spell more difficult' Truecold thing).

Everybody who is involved: vote.

1. Yes or No

2. Vote A, B, or C for how spirit magic and the shaman class works.

3. Demon binder class: Yes or No?

4. Yes or No: The only arcane spellcasting is that of the caretakers, which have a magewrighty feel.

1. Yes, kinda mostly. Combining rage and wildshape into a per encounter thing where they take on aspects of the beast, choosing which abilities and bonuses they gain while wildshaping would be my ideal choice.
2. B
3. Yes, and I think that a refluffed Binder could do the job quite well.
4. No

I was under the assumption (in my idea on page 3) that at the clanmeets, people were suggested to be elevated to be caretakers, it was voted on, and then they accept or decline the promotion. Then they get assigned to a house and stay as a caretaker (but may chage houses) until they die, quit (very uncommon, and they can lose their abilities), are impeached (cast out of region and stripped of abilities) or are elevated to Grand Caretaker.

This I am in agreement with. It is logical and it fits well.

Maybe different Types of demons or entities for the different schools.

Manipulative Demons give you Enchantment
Wrathful demons give you Evocation.
Protective spirits give you Abjuration.
Spirits of Nature give you Conjuration
Spirits of Civilization give you Transmutation
Spirits of Death/ Death Demons give you Necromacy

Devils- Enchantment
Demons- Evocation
Angels- Abjuration
Fey- Transmutation
World Spirits- Conjuration
Lifedrinkers- Necromancy (Lifedrinkers being spirits that take the souls life energy, putting them from life into death. The soul isn't harmed, but it can't come back to the material realm without powerful magic. Necromancy here doesn't affect the soul [except for specific spells like Soul Jar], it puts some life energy that is under the users control into a dead body)
Of course, having a deal with a certain type of entity doesn't mean that you can only ever get spells from those schools. If we're going with the binder making pacts those types of entities to gain power, then we could probably refluff most vestiges to fit rather well and there would probably be a few appropriate exceptions.

And making deals with entities as the surest way to arcane magic is thematically and mechanically appropriate. Warlocks (a life of negotiation and pledged allegiance to one powerful outsider) and binders (short-term pacts where an entity is summoned, weakened, and used) then would be the most common wielders of arcane magic. While we're refluffing vestiges, what about making some alternate warlocks? The standard blasty one would be the demon-warlock, but a devil one that dazes, stuns, and controls enemies might be appropriate as well. A fey warlock that gains benefits from temporary shapeshifting might be cool, an angelic warlock that puts up wards on his allies and gains a smite or few per encounter would be nice, and a life-drinker warlock that gets a few undead minions and can enhance his powers by damaging his allies would be pretty awesome.

FlamingKobold

2010-01-10, 02:15 PM

Alright, here's how I like to do things. I'm going to type a lot, and talk about everything separately, but I'm not going to use quotes. Rather, I'm going to bring up ideas from the posts of others and advance them. I also like numbering things a lot, in case you haven't figured it out.

1. We make Ice trolls a playable race. I already statted them out on page 4, I think, but there has been very little feedback.

2. I think general consensus is that Caretakers are primarily a lifelong position. If you disagree with it, please say why :smallsmile:

3. On martial adepts and Vadin. Okay, guys, we agreed that this is low magic. Martial adepts are pretty magical. If we nerf spellcasting, (which we are doing) then we also need to nerf martial adepts, otherwise they'll unbalance the game.

4. On this demony thingy. It is kind of bad for mechanical reasons if the extent of the "mechanic" is: "make the entity agree with you."This is flawed because a) It's totally subjective to the DM. Classes need to haave a falsifiable power level. b) If you have to do stuff like that a lot, then it wastes the game time of other palyers. c) It is hard to determine mechanically how powerful a certain demon is, how much they like you, and especially how that relates to your power and your level.

As an alternative, I think the best way to do this is to combine 2 people's ideas to create a binding class. This will take its roots from the binder class already in existence. However, we change how often you can rebind vestiges to on the full moon. This both limits versatility while keeping it thematically appropriate. Moreover, that the binder is about tier 3, we probably need to cap its vestige level at 1 lower, or just tone down the abilities slightly.

5. Warlocks. This is, I think, extremely out of place. Nothing personal, but I'm pretty sure that the concept of warlocks is as antithetical to the nature of the setting as you can get. It allows at will powers. No matter how strong these powers are, it's way to much. Even 1st level spells at will are much too powerful for this setting. In my first post, which detailed sending stones, I thought of them as extremely powerful and rare. Yep, 1st level spell at will item is super, super valuable, and only gifted to clan leaders.

6. This brings me to the nature of magic in this setting. This is extremely important, and needs to be decided before anything else is posted or can happen. Any amount of "common" magic, no matter how weak, is too powerful. Caretakers are extremely prestigious and respecteed becausd they can use first level spells. I think that the best suggestion for arcane magic thus far is the idea of the ritual to allow you to get up to a level 4 sorcerer. I think the limit of 2nd level spells in a weak spellcasting class is the only way that this iis ever going to work. A commoner sees you cast flaming sphere and is like "Holy Crap!" These ae the most powerful people around.

7. I think we're doing Spirit magic and the shaman class with method B. If anyone has objections to this, please raise them now. Basically, It's the spirit shaman from complete divine with more class features and no spellcasting. IIf you don't know what the class is, just post that, and I'll explain it in more detail.

8. Druids have no spellcasting, but rather have a Bestial Stance ability (rage, name subject ot change) have multiple companions, and can only take the form of their companions, who get buffed when you turn into one.

Vadin

2010-01-10, 03:01 PM

To reduce magic-explosions from at-will classes, what about giving them a rechargeable pool of power points? They start a combat at, say, half of their maximum point value. They regain a small number of points every round, or they can take a full round to gain more points.

They gain certain benefits when holding onto points (for example, having 10 points in your pool gives you +1 AC along with the benefits for 1, 3, and 7 points). Points can be expended to create certain spell-like abilities, but this expenditure also cuts him off from regaining points for a few rounds.

It isn't a total undoing of at-will casting, but it does give us a warlock that channels his patron's power. The more of the power he holds onto, the more passive bonuses he gains. The power can be expended to manifest magical effects, but such manifestations deplete his store of power and temporarily break the incoming waves of power.

Part psion, part warlock, part binder.

As for martial adepts, the effects don't get too overtly magical (except in the overtly magical schools, of course) until level 6 or so. Making a few adept classes that only gain 2/3 maneuver progression and some more class features or using the swordsage's recovery mechanic (full-round to regain 1 maneuver, probably raised to a few more for the action as they increase in level) should bring them into line quite well. Using these replacement base classes (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update) is also something that has made a few games I've played rather enjoyable.

BRC

2010-01-10, 03:06 PM

Maybe replace all casting with one "Spiritbound" class that functions as vadin described, and several spell lists/bonuses based on what patron spirit the character is bound to.
Somebody bound to a demon functions like a warlock, their points are spent on blasty Spells.
somebody bound to the spirit of a fallen warrior acts like a martial adept, they spend their power points on TOB manuevers.
Somebody bound to a healing spirit acts like a cleric, somebody bound to a Hunting spirit gets ranger-esque spells, ect ect.

Edit: You could also have "Reserve spells". If you have a maximum of 10points per battle, you can use "Nose of the Wolf", for the day you lose 3 of these points, but in exchange you get the Scent ability, so your maximum points for the day is 7.

Vadin

2010-01-10, 03:18 PM

Maybe replace all casting with one "Spiritbound" class that functions as vadin described, and several spell lists/bonuses based on what patron spirit the character is bound to.
Somebody bound to a demon functions like a warlock, their points are spent on blasty Spells.
somebody bound to the spirit of a fallen warrior acts like a martial adept, they spend their power points on TOB manuevers.
Somebody bound to a healing spirit acts like a cleric, somebody bound to a Hunting spirit gets ranger-esque spells, ect ect.

This. This is super cool. I heartily approve and we will develop this into something awesome that will build pretty much all casters into some place on a sliding scale of highly martial character to 2/3 casting controller.

I am also in favor of getting rid of the fighter, replacing the rogue and ranger with a hunter/tracker, and changing barbarian rages to per encounter to make them more useful.

FlamingKobold

2010-01-10, 03:22 PM

Okay, see, the problem isn't balancing in combat, it's out of combat. If it's a full round action to get more points, you bind yourself to healing spirit and get infinite healing. This setting needs to be super low magic, otherwise you undermine the concept itself. At will abilities need to go. Something as powerful as a paladin's lay on hands is too much. We really need to limit the magic, not make it slightly less spammable than a warlock's invocations.

Edit: Rages per encounter would be pretty useless... Suggestion:
Step 1. Take the warblade. This is the only nonmagicky martial adept.
Step 2: Make it 2/3 progression.
Step 3: Make absolutely nothing more powerful than that.

BRC

2010-01-10, 03:29 PM

This. This is super cool. I heartily approve and we will develop this into something awesome that will build pretty much all casters into some place on a sliding scale of highly martial character to 2/3 casting controller.

I am also in favor of getting rid of the fighter, replacing the rogue and ranger with a hunter/tracker, and changing barbarian rages to per encounter to make them more useful.
Here are some spirit ideas

Spirits of Destruction: Demons mainly, but the occasional neutral spirit may fall into this portfolio. Grants offensive spells. Power bonuses are based around boosting damage dealt.
Spirit of Manipulation: Fey and Devils, grants enchantment spells, power boosts give bard type abilities (Unless we just keep the Bard as a class)
Spirits of Healing: Grants healing spells, buffs, and the occasional non-lethal combat spell. Power bonuses grant the caster fast healing and defensive bonuses.

Warrior Spirit: Grants Manuevers, Power bonuses give boost to ability scores.

Builder Spirit: Grants conjuration and transmutation spells, power bonuses give you DR, make weapons masterwork, bonuses on craft checks, ect. Note: Most caretakers are bound to Builder spirits, and as such have the best weapons. Also, while a standard clan may have 1 spiritbound for every 10 mundane warriors, Caretakers not only have better warriors and hunters, but they have a higher proportion of Spiritbound.
Spirit of the Hunt: Grants ranger spells.
Bestial Spirit: Not "Spells" per say, but partial or total temporary transformations (Give self natural weapons and armor, scent abilities, or just turn oneself into a bear for abit).
Spirit of Justice: Paladin spells.

Edit: Is there a reason we couldn't base these guys off Psions? Give them points per day so as to avoid the unlimited healing thing?

FlamingKobold

2010-01-10, 03:50 PM

I don't think points per day is enough. It needs to have a dignificant drawback, otherwise we end up with healbots in every town. Maybe extremely expensive components, so you could only afford a few CLW spells per month. Or ability damage/drain for spellcasting. Or extremely long rituals for just about everything. Your conception is incompatible with a low magic world.

Owrtho

2010-01-10, 03:56 PM

On the topic of caretakers:

The problem is that we differ on the fundamental premise of what the caretaker should be. You seem to want to think of it as just some job that people want to do. Something prestiges; an honor. A group that people want to be a part of. That latter part, that's what I agree with. However, with that power and honor come responsibility. These people are in charge of preserving the lives of hundred of people every month. This isn't just some job, it's an ideal that you devote your life to. To allow people to just step in and then step out degrades the position. The only way to make sure that the most qualified and devoted people take the job, it needs to be made a lifelong position. Therefore, if it's something that people devote their life to and swear an oath to uphold duties, it is okay, in my mind, to give them a special prestige class.

The only entry requirements would really be
Alignment: Any non-evil.
Special: Must be chosen by a clanmeet to take the position of caretaker.

I think general consensus is that Caretakers are primarily a lifelong position. If you disagree with it, please say why :smallsmile:

Caretakers are extremely prestigious and respecteed becausd they can use first level spells.

First, I've only seen one person agree with the life long Caretaker position, and I don't recall you mentioning it being such until after I pointed out it's temporary (then again I may have just missed it).
Anyway, I don't see how it cheapens the Caretaker to make it temporary. If it is required to be permanent, then it basically is making those who take it cut off ties with their clan. This ends up meaning that while they have the honor of the position, the only people they will have prolonged contact with is other people with the exact same honor, which in my view rather cheapens it.
Thats where I suggest there should be 2 kinds of Caretakers. Permanent and temporary (and the names to tell the difference need to be better). When it comes down to it, most of whats needed to be a caretaker are hunting skills and the ability to keep a building in good repair. These aren't things that need lifelong dedication to be able to do well. They are skills that can be seen as quite valuable though. Thus the majority of caretakers would be temporary ones. They would mostly be young men from the clans hoping to gain honor and prestige for when they finish. The job would require a minimum time period of from 1 Clanmeet to the next (this could be changed to being X number of years but only in increments of time between Clanmeets). They would tend to do the mundane tasks around the House they take care of (cooking, cleaning, hunting, repairs, etc.).
There would then be the permanent Caretakers. Every House would have at least 1 (though only the larger and/or more important ones would have more). They would be the ones that gain special magic and such. They would also help with the mundane tasks, but would also have tasks made possible by their magic. They would also usually be in charge. It would be a bigger honor to become a permanent caretaker, but only some would take it as it means cutting ties with their clan (not that they can't have friends or family, but they are no longer a part of the clan and tend to only see them at Clanmeets or when they come to their House).
The Caretakers should not be respected for having magic. They should be respected for what they do. Also, the Non-evil requirement doesn't make sense. If your in a region where almost all the clans are evil, then why can't they have evil Caretakers? It seems it would just be a matter of having certain skills and being nominated for the position as well as accepting (might also require X years experience as a temp Caretaker, and likely require nomination by another permanent Caretaker).

Now, other issues. I don't think it is that magic shouldn't be common, but that controlled magic shouldn't be common. After all, storm bearers, demons, dragons, truecolds, etc. all could be called magic. However, they aren't controlled by people, and as such lend to the setting.
On the issue of the binder, I'd suggest also making more vestiges, and possibly remove the signs.

On the idea of points for at will abilities, it might work if they were more only recharged per day, or per 6 hours, or some similar thing.
Also not so sure how the 'all casters are 1 class' idea works. Mainly as some would likely have nonmagical abilities that the others wouldn't.

Also, there should still be rouges (or some similar thing). Even if there aren't many thieves among the clans, we still have towns and cities near the coast and underground. And it seems like in such places theft would be more common due to the harsh conditions.

Owrtho

FlamingKobold

2010-01-10, 04:45 PM

Oh crap, I forgot to mention: I think that the Caretakers should be permanent, but others can stay and assist them. They aren't as prestigous, but they are still respected. I think that encapsulates both of our ideas. They should have an official title, though.

And part of the point is that they aren't connected to their clans anymore. They need to become completely neutral, so that even in the event of a disagreement between two clns, the Caretakers will help everyone equally.

BRC

2010-01-10, 05:03 PM

Vadin

2010-01-10, 05:39 PM

Psychic warriors and swordsages are a place to start for creating one class that does casting-type things along with significant magicalish permanent abilities.

Sintanan

2010-01-10, 09:50 PM

Snowball World base class: Skinchanger (Druid replacement)Starting Age: As Druid.
Starting Gold: As Druid.
Alignment: Any neutral.

Hit Dice: d8
Base Attack Bonus: Average (3/4)
Good Saves: Fort, Will
Skills: 4+Int per level; Balance, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), Listen, Profession, Spot, Survival, Swim.

Class Progression
1st: Animal companion, nature sense, totem animal, totem shape 1/day, wild empathy
2nd: Resistance to cold 5
3rd: Snow stride, totem shape 2/day
4th: Resist nature's lure, trackless step
5th: Totem shape 3/day
6th: Dire totem shape 1/day
7th: Totem shape 4/day
8th: Bestial speech
9th: Resistance to cold 10
10th: Totem shape (planar)
11th: Totem shape 5/day
12th: Dire totem shape 2/day
13th: Ice stride
14th: Totem shape 6/day
15th: Timeless body
16th: Dire totem shape (planar), resistance to cold 15
17th: Totem shape 7/day
18th: Dire totem shape 3/day
19th: A thousand faces
20th: Immunity to cold, totem shape 8/day

Armor Proficiency: Light and medium armor, and shields (not tower shields). Armor and shield must be non-metallic.
Weapon Proficiency: Club, Battleaxe, Dagger, Dart, Kama, Quarterstaff, Scimitar, Sickle, Sling, Throwing Axe.
Nature Sense: As druid.
Totem Animal: At 1st level, a skinchanger selects one animal as his totem animal. The chosen totem animal may be one of the following: Bear, eagle, megaloceros, shark, snow leopard, or wolf. Once the totem animal is chosen, it cannot be changed.
Totem Shape: As wild shape ability. The skinchanger can only adopt the form of his totem animal once a day at 1st level. The skinchanger gets extra daily uses as shown on the class progression above. At 10th level, a non-evil skinchanger may apply the celestial template to his totem shape. A non-good skinchanger may apply the fiendish template to his totem shape. A neutral skinchanger chooses either celestial or fiendish and the choice cannot be changed once made.
Wild Empathy: As Druid.
Animal Companion: The animal companion granted to the skinchanger is stronger than its normal kin. The skinchanger is treated as a druid two levels higher for the purposes of available animal companion and animal companion abilities. See below for the animal companions available to the skinchanger. The list is sorted by selected totem and the minimum level for the animal companion is given in parentheses.
Bear: Black bear (2nd); dire bear (11th).
Eagle: Eagle (1st); dire eagle (3rd).
Megaloceros: Megaloceros (5th); dire elk (11th).
Shark: Shark, medium (1st); dire shark (14th).
Snow Leopard: Snow leopard (2nd); dire snow leopard* (14th).
Wolf: Wolf (1st); dire wolf (5th).
*Use the stat block for a dire tiger.

Snow Stride (Ex): The skinchanger may walk on non-magical snow without slowing or sinking.
Resist Nature's Lure: As druid ability.
Trackless Step: As druid ability.
Dire Totem Shape (Su): At 6th level, the skinchanger can change into the dire version of his totem animal (see the animal companion list above). At 16th level the skinchanger may apply the celestial or fiendish template to his dire totem shape. See totem shape above for further information.
Bestial Speech (Su): The skinchanger may speak while using totem shape or dire totem shape. Additionally, the skinchanger may speak with animals of the type available for his animal companion as if under the effects of speak with animals.
Ice Stride (Ex): The skinchanger may walk on non-magical ice without slowing or slipping.
Timeless Body: As druid ability.
A Thousand Faces: As druid ability.
I was thinking of adding in the axiomatic and chaotic(?) templates for the planar totem shape, but I forget where I found them so I figured I'll leave it at just celestial and fiendish at the moment.

Milskidasith

2010-01-10, 10:04 PM

Average BAB isn't 2/3rds, it's 3/4ths. Nobody has 2/3rds BAB.

It's also very weak: It has a horribly limited list of animal companions, and no spellcasting. It's basically "Bad warrior (the class) with a few mostly useless class features, the ability to ignore the settings cold, and a slightly better fighter tagging along."

Sintanan

2010-01-10, 10:23 PM

Sorry about that... :smallredface:

I would have added spellcasting, but with the current discussion of a low-magic world I was thinking it might be useful to give the skinchanger a spellcasting progression on par with the magewright npc class from Eberron, with spells drawn from the Druid spell list still.

I just wanted opinions on the skinchanger and thoughts on whether or not it should have spellcasting... maybe skinchangers can be caretakers?

Vadin

2010-01-10, 11:31 PM

Well then.

As much a fan as I am of wildshaping as it (which is, in fact, very little), I was thinking that instead of getting the physical attributes of a given monster, they would take on their form and attributes by choosing an increasing number of options (in addition to at least one natural weapon that deals 1d8 damage) for their alternate form to have.

For example,

Least Adaptations
Nocturnal: Darkvision 20 and Blindsight 3
Strong: +2 to hit and damage with melee attacks
Careful: +4 on one save
Claws: Gain an extra natural weapon, and both natural weapons deal 1d6 damage
Thick: +2 AC
Fast: +10' to base land speed
Flying: 20' fly speed with Clumsy maneuverability
Healthy: +10 temporary HP that stacks with temporary HP from other sources
Quadraped: You gain +5' to your base land speed and you increase your carrying weight as though your Strength was 4 points higher
Lesser Adaptations
Large: Size increases by one category
Vicious: Deal 1d6 damage when you successfully hit with both natural weapons (Requires Claws)
Powerful: +4 Strength
Cautious: Gain +2 to all saves (This stacks with and requires Careful)
Armored: +5 AC (This replaces and requires Thick)
Mighty: Your primary natural weapon deals 1d12 damage (or 1d10 if you are using two natural weapons)
Tough: +25 temporary HP that stacks with temporary HP from other sources (this replaces and requires Healthy)

Something more or less like that, with choosing a new one every other level or every few levels and gaining access to a higher tier at regular intervals. And they can assume the form per encounter not per day, because per day especially at low levels means that the character is effective in one fight in the day and no better than an NPC with one action to repeat over and over every other fight that day.

Also, would anyone care to flesh out the Elk Knights a little more? Or how they fey function in the world (lots of mischievous individuals, small bands of immortal trouble-makers with their own agendas, or a few groups of fey organized courts with complex politics)?

kopout

2010-01-10, 11:52 PM

I think there should be both Permenant and temporary caretakers.

Permenant ones either stay in the Houses or lead groups of temporary ones. If a clan arrives at a House, the Permanent caretakers there, direct repairs and maintenance of the House. If a House is lying Fallow, a team of temporary caretakers (Led by one or two permenants) goes there to keep it in shape.

I support this idea. Maybe have the temporary care takers as apprentices? you can drop out any time you like but if you decide to stay for life you get a big ceremony and are inducted into the (semi) sacred order of care takers.

Sintanan

2010-01-11, 12:47 AM

Vadin

2010-01-11, 01:08 AM

Essentially, yes. With some animal summoning, an animal companion (something that is rather powerful and not taken into account often enough), and standardization. The balancer in me wants to see a generic base animal with features chosen to differentiate them so that they can all be on similar power levels.

Also, for those of us who will be playing 4e, druids are rather well represented by beastmaster rangers who multiclass into druid and shaman (the shapeshifting aspect can stay fluff without any real loss here). Actual druids also work well if you want shapeshifting and summoning and a few extra overtly magical effects more than you want an animal companion and abilities that capitalize on that companion.

Shamans who speak with spirits and channel them and summon things and use the world around them are accomplished quite sufficiently by shamans that multiclass into druid for a few of the summoning powers.

On the arcane front, sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards serve quite well as themselves, especially warlocks- they already have a radiant oriented pact that can be refluffed to be angelic, a death spirit pact (in the Eberron of FR player's handbook), a diabolic pact, and a fey pact. Wizards that practice secrets learned from long dead archmages is done quite well by just being a wizard and choosing spells that fall into a certain theme.

Fighters, rogues, and rangers that multiclass into a different power source with the same role is a great way to emulate martial adepts that practice schools with supernatural elements (such as a fighter with warden powers for a discipline practiced by treants and dryads that teaches the initiator how to use the natural world to stop his foes).

In short, we can spend time 'brewing in 3.5, because 4e is pretty well covered.

But yeah. Fey. Anyone have any thoughts on them?

The Tygre

2010-01-11, 03:02 AM

Like I said earlier, domestic fey like Domovoi and Brownies are going to play a huge role, maybe the largest. Also, Fey might be seen as an alternative power source for magic.

Vadin

2010-01-11, 09:31 AM

I was thinking fey more along the lines of how they are presented in-game and not fey from Western European folklore. Something closer to Changeling and Exalted fey, where they are chaotic nature folk who live in a close but separate reality and are rather powerful individuals who may or may not have some overarching political unity. They include the likes of eladrin, cyclopes, pixies, and dryads. They are nature oriented, but not tradition-obsessed or totally concerned only with the preservation of the wilderness (it's where they are from and is important, but not something most are fanatical about).

When I said fey, the above is what I had in mind, though house spirits are pretty ok too, I suppose. Powerful not-quite-mortal, not-quite-immortal outsiders with too much free time and a love of games, experiments, and conflict is perhaps a tad easier to put into the setting as a group that functions outside of other societies but makes an effort to influence them (whether for a specific goal or just to see what would happen).

Something we could implement in that vein of thought (fey as cold-hearted beings with magic and too much free time) is the idea of 'goblin contracts' from Changeling (a WoD book). Goblin contracts are magical pacts that give a character a minor magical ability they can use fairly regularly, but they always come at a cost- for example, one lets a character magically unlock a door, but their door will be open the next time someone tries to pick their lock. Another one might be the ability to create a small magical flame, but you won't be able to feel heat from normal fire for the next 24 hours. Your arrow will be guaranteed a hit, but the next projectile fired at you will be especially powerful. You create a fireball, but everywhere you step turns to slippery ice for the next hour. Things that offer pretty nice instant benefits but have some long-range cost that can have unforseen consequences. These would be small pacts made with fey for their amusement and your potential benefit (probably implemented in the form of feats and feat chains).