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Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-07, 12:37 AM
Since my DM said no to my gestalt Incarnium/ToB build on the basis that he doesn't understand how Incarnium works (understandable if regretable)

so I decided for a mobility (not the feat) build and one of the first thougt that I had was Elocater, from a psywar build

On the other hand I don't know what to take on the other side.. I was considering a two-level dip into monk with talashtorra (sp?) [I am AFB right know does Talashtora also stacks levels for the speed bonus? because I recall it progressing Unarmed Attack Damage and flurry of blows]. I also plan on taking more psywar levels on the no-manifesting levels of elocater
but aside from that I don't know what to take.

So what would be a good class that mantains the mobility flavor and add other things to my build.

Zephyros
2010-01-07, 12:43 AM
Mobility based highly indicates swordsage (for even more wisdom synergy and some arguing with your DM for the armor bonus stacking :P ). It seems that your first side is gonna be PsyWar/Elocator with the second side being a dipping side. So off the top of my head you could fit in there sth like:

monk2 (for Tashalatora)
swordsage 2 (for blah blah blah)
fighter 2 (for the feats and some better bab)
and even go on with ShadowSun Ninja and/or Tattooed Monk

Pluto
2010-01-07, 12:44 AM
Swordsage compliments Psychic Warrior well.

Especially with a focus on mobility.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-07, 12:47 AM
Mobility based highly indicates swordsage (for even more wisdom synergy and some arguing with your DM for the armor bonus stacking :P ). It seems that your first side is gonna be PsyWar/Elocator with the second side being a dipping side. So off the top of my head you could fit in there sth like:

monk2 (for Tashalatora)
swordsage 2 (for blah blah blah)
fighter 2 (for the feats and some better bab)
and even go on with ShadowSun Ninja and/or Tattooed Monk

My first thought was also on swordsage for the Wisdom synergy, though I am almost sure my DM will say no to having wisdom to AC twice. and more skill points (<3 skill points)

Monk 2 is a given for talashtora....maybe
fighter 2 or even 4 for bonus feats (you just CAN'T get enough of them)
and as for other PRG classe thats a nono, do dual prestige classing for me

either way thanks for the advise

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-07, 04:47 PM
For Race how would an evolved undead gravetouched ghoul sounds? it has some sweet bonus on ability scores and the paralysis seems nice and as for the evolved undead SLA I am thinking on either greater dispel magic or haste.

deuxhero
2010-01-07, 04:50 PM
Does talashtora Monk/Psy Warrior//Swordsage's unarmed strike and co overlap or stack?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-07, 04:52 PM
Does talashtora Monk/Psy Warrior//Swordsage's unarmed strike and co overlap or stack?

I am not sure if they stack but I don't want the tashalatora for the unarmed strike bonus, I want it for the Wis to AC and the AC bonus

Draz74
2010-01-07, 05:08 PM
Then maybe you should just take the Wis to AC from Swordsage and call it a day. If you want more AC than that, a la the Monk's other small AC bonuses, just pick up Inertial Armor as a Power Known.

Even if you do get Wis to AC from your Monk/PsyWarrior side, Swordsage is definitely worth taking (maybe even pureclassing) on the other side of your Gestalt. If you take enough levels of it, it gets lots of benefits from Wisdom besides just AC.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-07, 05:15 PM
hmmm thats a good point... maybe I will stick to Swordsage

Keld Denar
2010-01-07, 05:31 PM
Unarmed Swordsage would progress unarmed strike damage, but it wouldn't advance flurry. Thats what you need Tashalatora for.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-07, 06:04 PM
I don't care about flurry I only wanted the AC and WIS bonus but I don't think my DM will rule them to stack... so I'll stick to normal Swordsage

Ryuuk
2010-01-07, 06:13 PM
The bonuses to AC shouldn't stack though, aren't both class features called AC Bonus? Even then, Swordsages only get their bonus while in light armor, while the monk needs to be unarmored.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-07, 09:22 PM
What would be good feats for my build? I am thinking on psionic meditation, psycrystal affinity, psycrystal contaiment, linked power and least expanded knowledge twice

Dodge (or an alternative dodge such as expeditous dodge), adaptive style and mobility are a must.

Which are other options that I should consider?

avr
2010-01-07, 10:00 PM
What level are you starting at, and what level do you think you might play to?

In any case, Power Attack isn't on your feat list yet & you definitely want it. The ToB feat which lets you recover your psionic focus as a swift action following a strike 3/day is also worth considering.

Why dodge/mobility? Swordsages get tumble as a class skill & 6+int skill points/level., Oh, and Shadow Jaunt etc.

If the campaign might last long enough to go into Master of Nine after Elocater, you might want the prereq feats for that PrC.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-07, 10:06 PM
What level are you starting at, and what level do you think you might play to?

In any case, Power Attack isn't on your feat list yet & you definitely want it. The ToB feat which lets you recover your psionic focus as a swift action following a strike 3/day is also worth considering.

Why dodge/mobility? Swordsages get tumble as a class skill & 6+int skill points/level., Oh, and Shadow Jaunt etc.

If the campaign might last long enough to go into Master of Nine after Elocater, you might want the prereq feats for that PrC.

This is for a high-level (ECL 17) one shot my DM is running
I am not sure on power attack but hey I get a lot of feats (psywar) and that feat ( I need to look for it) is definetly considered

Dodge and mobility are prerequisites for elocater.

As for Master of Nine, I don't want to step on the toes of the other Master of Nine

(If you are wondering the party is a druid//halfdragon fighter, cleric//half-dragon, half-fiend, shadow-something (from FR) black guard and an elan Master of nine (don't know the actual build)

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-07, 10:08 PM
What would be good feats for my build? I am thinking on psionic meditation, psycrystal affinity, psycrystal contaiment, linked power and least expanded knowledge twice

Dodge (or an alternative dodge such as expeditous dodge), adaptive style and mobility are a must.

Which are other options that I should consider?Get a hold on one of the many, many (many) ways to fly (wings of flying, raptoran, wings-aspect-dragonborn, phantom steed, alter self, polymorph, metamorphosis, fly, overland flight, fiendish graft (wings), flying carpet, metamorphosis'd psicrystal, or any of a half-dozen soulmelds...like astral vambraces...etc), then take the Flyby Attack feat, rather than worrying about Dodge, Mobility, AND Spring Attack. This will let you perform a strike, manifest a power, or make an attack in the middle of a move action, rather than just a single attack action, AND it burns a heckuvalot fewer feats, too. If you're worried about AoOs, either find a way to get mirror image (and let them precede you when you're attacking so it gets the AoO first), or get greater concealing amorpha, which negates AoOs completely.

[edit] D'oh! Dumb prereqs. Oh well. Flyby Attack is still recommended.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-07, 10:14 PM
As is said before dodge and mobility are for entering elocater; but the suggestion of fly-by attack is good and I have never played an Dragonborn so maybe I'll try it
Any sugestion for a good race as a base its highly apreciated(sp), I know water orc gets a lot of love but I don't think it would be a good idea for this build.

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-07, 10:43 PM
Half-giant or the online version of the kobold would be good bases for dragonborn, as would orc and water orc. Basically, the best ones are the critters with natural attacks, odd sizes, extra movement modes, and high ability scores.

Otherwise, you lose most everything else.

Signmaker
2010-01-07, 10:47 PM
I smell a lack of Crinti Shadow Marauder.

Teleporting Full Attacks would be quite mobile, yes?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-07, 10:52 PM
@Lycanthropomancer: Kobold sounds fine and I kinda like the idea of a completely draconic party.

@Signmaker:I am not familiar with the Crinti shadow marouder but it gives shadow pounce, right? I have already played a Telflamar Shadow Lord (which also gives Shadow pounce) and I can't understand why I forgot about that, I will consider it.

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-07, 11:12 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a

(Also, it's Lycanthromancer.)

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-07, 11:19 PM
Reading over the article I reminded myself of the poison dusk lizardfoks and I like them better than kobolds, though I got a few questions on the Dragonborn "template" do I loose the skill bonuses, the nat armor, chameleon, low-light vision and hold breath?

Edit (sorry for the misspelling)

Dimers
2010-01-07, 11:55 PM
In terms of mobility, I suggest scout as a class -- especially since the Elocator can move 10 feet per round as two five-foot steps, and therefore can make a full attack while getting skirmish bonuses.

EDIT: Oh, also, the scout gives fast movement, free feats that include Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack, and evasion. The skill points don't hurt, either.

Wings of Peace
2010-01-08, 03:48 AM
You should teach him the fun of Incarnum! Make your race Elan and take both the Body Fuel and Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest feats. :smallsmile:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-08, 04:42 PM
Scout.....maybe a swifhunter build on the other side.... increase in BAB some nice skills....hmm

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-12, 07:14 PM
I finally decided on this build but still I want critiques plese

Kalashtar (Bonus PP, entry into Quori Nightmare and RP reasons)

1 Psywar//Monk
2 Psywar//Monk
3 Psywar//Swordsage
4 Psywar//Rogue
5 Psywar//Rogue
6 Elocater//Rogue
7 Elocater//Psywar
8 Elocater//Swordsage
9 Elocater//Swordsage
10 Elocater//Psywar
11 Elocater//Swordsage
12 Elocater//Swordsage
13 Elocater//Psywar
14 Elocater// Swordsage
15 Elocater//Swordsage
16 Quori Nightmare//Psywar
17 Telflamar Shadowlord// Psywar
18 Quori Nightmare //Swordsage
19 Quori Nightmare //Swordsage
20 Quori Nightmare//Swordsage

From my preleminary Calculations I get Full Psywar manifester level 16 IL (8 lvl manoubers I think) Shadow pounce, flurry of blows, Wis to AC and access to some nice Race specific feats, skill points and a bit of SAD (Wis), Nightmare Shroud (concealment 20%), many bonus feats.
Also my DM agreed that I can flurry with Natural weapons (AKA Claws of the Beast) and that INA also aplies to Claws of the beast.

so what do the playground thinks?

I think that the only thing that suffers a bit Is BAB

Haven
2010-01-12, 07:24 PM
I'd suggest taking the Mantled Warrior ACF, specifically with the Freedom Mantle; that would give you +10 feet movement when psionically focused and access to some nice powers.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-12, 07:26 PM
I'd suggest taking the Mantled Warrior ACF, specifically with the Freedom Mantle; that would give you +10 feet movement when psionically focused and access to some nice powers.
That looses me... a feat right?... I'll need to check the mantle but at a glance it seems useful and prevents me for burning a feat for Speed of thought.

Haven
2010-01-12, 07:41 PM
Yeah. It also gives you the option of choosing some very nice (and thematically appropriate) powers, especially Dimension Hop and Fly. The mantle's on this page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060302a&o=d20modern/article), and the ACF is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-12, 07:44 PM
Yeah. It also gives you the option of choosing some very nice (and thematically appropriate) powers, especially Dimension Hop and Fly. The mantle's on this page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060302a&o=d20modern/article), and the ACF is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a).

Thanks for the link but I have access to complete psionics and before my DM ruled I could flurry with claws of the beast I was considering using the soul bound ACF.

I think I got Dimension Hop and fly on the Psywar build but the mantle give them as powers known automatically right?

Haven
2010-01-12, 07:52 PM
Oh, okay.

I think it just adds them to the list of powers you can choose (because neither is on the Psychic Warrior power list: Dimension Hop is only available from the Freedom mantle, and Psionic Fly is only available to psions with the Nomad discipline, so I think you'd need to take Expanded Knowledge to get them otherwise).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-12, 07:59 PM
Oh my mistake then....:smallredface:

Thurbane
2010-01-12, 08:19 PM
You could take Binder on the gestalt, at least enough to bind Paimon. Dance of Death is an awesome for a mobility based character, and you get Whirwind Attack as a bonus.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-12, 08:25 PM
You could take Binder on the gestalt, at least enough to bind Paimon. Dance of Death is an awesome for a mobility based character, and you get Whirwind Attack as a bonus.

So with a 3 lvl dip into binder and improved pact making?.... I am not sure If I want that fluff wise and I think I am stretching my DM patience with the build I posted before but thanks for the sugestion

Thurbane
2010-01-12, 08:31 PM
I've been working on an NPC villain: Centaur Binder X/Barbarian X. Dance of Death + massive base speed + Horseshoes of Speed + large reach weapon = pain!

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-12, 08:37 PM
I've been working on an NPC villain: Centaur Binder X/Barbarian X. Dance of Death + massive base speed + Horseshoes of Speed + large reach weapon = pain!

:smalleek: definetly NOT something I would want to loose Initiative againts....

Samb
2010-01-12, 08:46 PM
I finally decided on this build but still I want critiques plese

Kalashtar (Bonus PP, entry into Quori Nightmare and RP reasons)

1 Psywar//Monk
2 Psywar//Monk
3 Psywar//Swordsage
4 Psywar//Rogue
5 Psywar//Rogue
6 Elocater//Rogue
7 Elocater//Psywar
8 Elocater//Swordsage
9 Elocater//Swordsage
10 Elocater//Psywar
11 Elocater//Swordsage
12 Elocater//Swordsage
13 Elocater//Psywar
14 Elocater// Swordsage
15 Elocater//Swordsage
16 Quori Nightmare//Psywar
17 Telflamar Shadowlord// Psywar
18 Quori Nightmare //Swordsage
19 Quori Nightmare //Swordsage
20 Quori Nightmare//Swordsage

From my preleminary Calculations I get Full Psywar manifester level 16 IL (8 lvl manoubers I think) Shadow pounce, flurry of blows, Wis to AC and access to some nice Race specific feats, skill points and a bit of SAD (Wis), Nightmare Shroud (concealment 20%), many bonus feats.
Also my DM agreed that I can flurry with Natural weapons (AKA Claws of the Beast) and that INA also aplies to Claws of the beast.

so what do the playground thinks?

I think that the only thing that suffers a bit Is BAB

Screw BAB you have opportunistic strike. Quori nightmare just for concealment? Sounds like a very poor choice, if you want concealment cloak dance seems with hustle seems better. I don't get what you did at level 16 either, can you make a class on both sides?

Make sure you get astral construct so you can make use of opp strike, take up psychic renewal to get your maneuvers back as swift actions.

And you know what? I like spring attack. I hate taking all the feats for it but the end product is really nice, especially if you are not full attacking anyway (which you aren't). Flyby attack still provokes an AoO IIRC while spring attack doesn't. Honestly, I'm unkillible with this feat. I hit the baddy for 15d6 with sneak attack and some manuvuer, does he chase after me and hit me for 4d6 and take a AoO or full attack the BSF next to me for 12d6?

Your real issue is your piss poor PP pool. I'd say you take exclusively take ardent and a manifesting PrC on one side to maximize your PP.

Consider a fighter4/psywar11/swordsage5//ardent10/elocater10 instead of all that other wacky stuff. 3 bonus fighter feats, 5 from psywar, and mantles feats gives you lots to spare. Now you have great PP and access to 7-9th level powers and 6th level psion/wilder powers (like temp acceleration). Take dominant ideal and sub powers ACFs (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), and let the cheese ensue.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-12, 08:53 PM
Screw BAB you have opportunistic strike. Quori nightmare just for concealment? Sounds like a very poor choice, if you want concealment cloak dance seems with hustle seems better. I don't get what you did at level 16 either, can you make a class on both sides?

Make sure you get astral construct so you can make use of opp strike, take up psychic renewal to get your maneuvers back as swift actions.

And you know what? I like spring attack. I hate taking all the feats for it but the end product is really nice, especially if you are not full attacking anyway (which you aren't). Flyby attack still provokes an AoO IIRC while spring attack doesn't. Honestly, I'm unkillible with this feat. I hit the baddy for 15d6 with sneak attack and some manuvuer, does he chase after me and hit me for 4d6 and take a AoO or full attack the BSF next to me for 12d6?

Your real issue is your piss poor PP pool. I'd say you take exclusively take ardent and a manifesting PrC on one side to maximize your PP.

Consider a fighter4/psywar11/swordsage5//ardent10/elocater10 instead of all that other wacky stuff. 3 bonus fighter feats, 5 from psywar, and mantles feats gives you lots to spare. Now you have great PP and access to 7-9th level powers and 6th level psion/wilder powers (like temp acceleration). Take dominant ideal and sub powers ACFs (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), and let the cheese ensue.

Quori Nightmare is 4/5 manifesting prg class really fun fluff wise, your nightmare shroud represents your inner quori spirit, some sueful fear related abilities and I took psywar to avoid loosing manifester levels.

Also the shroud also grants deflection bonus to AC

Samb
2010-01-12, 09:16 PM
Quori Nightmare is 4/5 manifesting prg class really fun fluff wise, your nightmare shroud represents your inner quori spirit, some sueful fear related abilities and I took psywar to avoid loosing manifester levels.

Also the shroud also grants deflection bonus to AC

Psywar has terrible PP pool, ML is not the issue. You will be spending more of your depleted feat on psychic talent. Better to get a real manifesting class one the other side so you get lots of PP and higher level powers.

You like nightmare, that's fine but make sure it boosts the real manifesting class, not psywar. I said ardent because it is WIS based but psion and wilder are acceptable as well. The point is to get as much PP and powers as possible.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-12, 09:20 PM
can I get claws of the beast/vampire with mantles?

Samb
2010-01-12, 09:27 PM
Substitute Powers

Considering the esoteric nature of mantles, different ardents may have the same mantle but have different powers available to them. A mantle can have no more than ten powers in it, and if it has fewer, add further powers to fill the gaps if that mantle has no powers of that level. The powers need to fit the theme of the mantle at the DM's discretion. Otherwise, you can substitute a power of equal or lesser level. For example, the sense danger* power could be added to the Fate mantle as a 3rd-level power since only seven powers and no 3rd-level powers are in it, or the faint memory* power could replace escape detection in the Deception mantle.
Basically, you can put any power into any mantle within reason. So claws of the beast could easily be put in natural world or physical power mantle, while claws of the vampire could be in death or consumption mantle.

strider24seven
2010-01-14, 03:58 PM
Might I point out the Chrono-Legionnaire for awesome teleport-by charge shenanigans?
I can't seem to find the original thread on Wizards, so here's another:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131579
(Just search for Chrono: it's under a Spoiler)

If you're going for shapeshifting (metamorphosis, or form of doom if you can convince your DM to count it as an "alternate form"), go for 1-4 levels in Warshaper.

A couple levels in Fighter for bonus feats and BAB wouldn't hurt either. That way you might be able to pull off full PA+Deep Impact goodness on multiple teleports per round.

Alternatively, if you have a high INT, take a level in Wizard, specialize in Conjuration, and give up your familiar for Abrupt Jaunt. Teleport as an immediate action? Yes please. That might let you get off a full-attack with Shadow Pounce when it's not even your turn:smalltongue:.

Finding a way to learn Teleport Trigger could also be a pretty cool way to increase your shadow-pounciness.

Getting Stormguard Warrior or Combat Brute would also be pretty nice.

If you're not set on Psychic Warrior, you might want to try for War Mind. Your ML will suffer, but your PP will shoot up. And you get Sweeping Strike, since you're not actually moving, but teleporting. Then go with a reach weapon (spiked chain) + Expansion +great cleave for PAIN:smallbiggrin:!

Cognizance crystals and Psychic Vampire help with the PP crunch.

Hope this helps!