E6 tiers

[KingRexII]

I've been getting back into D&D lately, and I was researching the multitude of 3.5 variations and houserules that's floating around the interwebs. I stumbled upon E6 (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=352719), and by its description, it seems pretty appealing to me as I have always preferred playing/DMing in the 'Heroic fantasy' quartile, but disliked the exponentially growing combination of options that I felt I ought to keep track of as PCs levelled through the 'Wuxia' quartile and beyond.

However, I'm curious about how the classes now fit into the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) using E6. One of the reasons why the designer of the rules stops at level six is that, according to him, level six is where the classes are fairly balanced with each other. Assuming this is true, I'm wondering if that assertion holds true through the 20 feats after 6th level.

Does the wizard now get bumped down to tier 2 or tier 3 because he's been stripped of his higher level powers or is he still a tier 1 because he still has things like Ray of Enfeeblement and Fly and the ability to scribe more spells? Do monks and fighters move on up to tier 4 because their multitude of bonus feats still keeps pace with higher tier classes or are they still lagging behind?

Furthermore, are the tiers closer to each other? Have the gaps in power now closed so that a tier 1 class and a tier 4 class can play together without the tier 4 player feeling underpowered?

Anyway, I'm just looking for any analysis to this, either theoretical or practical.

[Mongoose87]

CW Samurai becomes Tier 1.

Just kidding. I know the idea is to make everything more balanced, since spellcaster power growth doesn't have time to balloon into a monstrousity.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Fighter is powerful for the first couple levels, but falls behid as soon as others start gaining feats and he starts running out of them. The ToB classes are awesome still. Full BAB matters more because that's the only way to grab 2 attacks.

And Wizards are still gods since now they can snag all the Sudden metamagics, have one of the only sources of Flight, and, of course, Glitterdust. The ones who get nerfed are Sorcerers and Warlocks, who seriously miss out on options.

[Aldizog]

I haven't played E6 per se. But if I look at the actual 3E/3.5 games that I've played in the 1-6 range, I'd say they're often well-balanced and you can have a Tier 5 (non-dungeoncrasher fighter) with a Tier 1 (wizard or cleric) with no problems. Spells per day are a non-trivial issue at those levels if you have multiple encounters per day. (I have no interest in theoretical arguments here; I'm just talking about my experience.)

Druids remain powerful at low levels thanks to the animal companion. And warlocks at 6th get Least invocations that in some cases are as good as 4th-level spells, which the other casters will never get.

[Draz74]

E6 has very different balance at Level 6 than it does at Level 20 (i.e. when your characters are Level 6, plus have 14 extra feats).

This is most noticeable in the Fighter, who is a reasonably competitive class in E6 up until Epic phase starts (especially if he's some combination of Ubercharger and Dungeoncrasher). However, when everyone has gotten to pick out 14 extra feats, there is suddenly no reason to be playing a Fighter instead of a Warblade (who was decent all along, but becomes truly awesome in Epic when he can pick out all the feats he ever wanted).

Full casters with 3rd-level spells are certainly not weak, Wizard included. That being said, some of them can feel awfully limited. The Sorcerer, for example, only knows one Level 3 spell and two Level 2 spells.

[Xzeno]

We (me and part of my group) played an E3 campaign a while back. The thing we noticed was that druids were significantly more powerful than other classes because of the animal companion. This might have had something to do with our low stats, however.

[Mongoose87]

Full casters with 3rd-level spells are certainly not weak, Wizard included. That being said, some of them can feel awfully limited. The Sorcerer, for example, only knows one Level 3 spell and two Level 2 spells.

Bear in mind, though, you're supposed to add feats increasing spells known and spells/day.

[Sinfire Titan]

Wizards can still end encounters, they just don't get the golden spell levels (4, 6, 9). They still get 2nd level spells, which contain Glitterdust, Pyrotechnics, Alter Self, and Invisibility (among others). They still get 3rd level spells (which aren't that bad). They still have Save or Suck spells, and can still buff themselves into a compentent demi-gish (and can arguably do so easier since they have an attack bonus only 3 points behind that of the Full BAB classes).

[Draz74]

Bear in mind, though, you're supposed to add feats increasing spells known and spells/day.

I thought of that, but Extra Spell still doesn't let the Sorc learn more Level 3 spells than the single one he knows. It may or may not still be worth taking in order to learn additional Level 2 spells.

Heighten Spell, of course, is definitely worth it when you have lots of feats. At least with that, the Sorc can turn things like Glitterdust into, effectively, Level 3 spells.

[grautry]

I thought of that, but Extra Spell still doesn't let the Sorc learn more Level 3 spells than the single one he knows. It may or may not still be worth taking in order to learn additional Level 2 spells.

Heighten Spell, of course, is definitely worth it when you have lots of feats. At least with that, the Sorc can turn things like Glitterdust into, effectively, Level 3 spells.

E6 rules include several additional feats.

See here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-house-rules/202109-e6-game-inside-d-d-pdfs.html) and check out Expanded Knowledge.

[Saph]

In my experience, ToB classes are king in a low-level game, with Druids stacking up about equally. Clerics and Wizards are still useful, but are relegated to more of a support role. Beguilers are awesome, as level 6 is where they get a laundry list of most of the best low-level control, buff, and debuff spells in the game. Bards and Sorcerers get hit hard, since they never climb past the 'meh' stage of spell power.

At level 6, I'd probably rank it something like this:

Tier 1: Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage, Druid, Beguiler.

Tier 2: Wizard, Cleric, multiclass Fighter/Barb/Ranger, Duskblade, Knight.

Tier 3: Rogue, Paladin, single-class Fighter/Barb/Ranger.

Tier 4: Sorcerer, Bard, Monk, Dragon Shaman.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Saph:

I would disagree on a few of your class selections
Cleric buffs arn't clericzilla style they never get divine power so there role of party tank isn't there. I would say that there buffs at level 6 would put them in tier 3.

My changes:

Tier 1: Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage, Druid, Beguiler, psion

Tier 2: Wizard, multiclass Fighter/Barb/Ranger, Duskblade, Knight, Binder
Spirit shaman, Wujen, swashbuckler, wilder

Tier 3: Rogue, Paladin, single-class Fighter/Barb/Ranger, cleric, Truenamer, Shugenja, Hexblade, Psiwarrior, Scout, Warmage, psi-rogue

Tier 4: Sorcerer, Bard, Monk, Dragon Shaman, Shadow caster, Ninja, Favored soul, Spellthief,Warlock, Marshel, Dragon fire adept

Tier 5: CW sameri, soulknife,



Think i got em all
I don't know the complete psi classes well enough to place them

[gorfnab]

Mystic Ranger would probably be Tier 2, Tier 1 if you go Wild Shaping with Sword of the Arcane Order. :smallamused:

[Glimbur]

Incarnate can out-damage a warlock at level 6, and has some other tricks too. They exactly get a second bind, but only have the lowest-tier binds available. I'd put them around Tier 3.

Totemist should be pretty workable, but the inability to Double Charka on your Totem due to level limits hurts some. Tier 2, maybe 3.

Soulborn... let's not go there.

[Stegyre]

At level 6, I'd probably rank it something like this:
This may have already been factored in, and I just wanted to make it explicit: isn't the valuation best done, not right at 6th level, but at "6th level plus n feats"? Some classes are helped more than others by all the bonus feats available in E6, in lieu of level progression. I'm just wondering to what extent, if any, folks would change these rankings if we said, "Tiers as of 6th level plus 10 feats."

[Eldariel]

Fighter is actually fairly good in E6. Fighter 6 JUST finishes Dungeoncrasher, can pick up Resolute and start picking up Martial Maneuvers of level 1 and 2 with feats soon enough (though Martial Study being limited on how many times you can take it [dumb limitation IMHO] means he's mostly limited to one school, really).

If you use the Capstone Feats, straight Fighter getting access to Weapon Mastery and to lesser extent, stuff like Improved Critical is suddenly quite relevant. Really, I'd say Goliath Fighter with Knockback is quite excellent in E6. Hidden Talent: Expansion, Practiced Manifester & extra points and such enable making great use of the bonus feats.

[JaronK]

Honestly, I don't think it changes very much. Clerics can still raise armies of the dead (Wizards can too if they get creative, and with all those extra feats why shouldn't a Wizard take Arcane Disciple?). Druids are stuck forever at a level where Fleshrakers and Hunting Bats are the king of the Wildshape Forms... oh no, whatever will they do? Plus their animal companions are still awesome. Many casters are limited only by a lack of feats, but in E6 that's exactly what they'll get (Arcane Thesis metamagic combos, anyone?). Archivists are basically exactly where Wizard are... sitting pretty. Plus they've got all those nice low level spells off the Paladin, Adept, and Ranger lists that they can go nuts with. Artificers end up having craft reserve issues, but they can canibalize loot to make fun toys and they can get access to fourth level spells via their crafting. So the Tier 1s are fine.

The T2s are having a bit more trouble due to a distinct lack of options. Luckily there are feats to help a bit with that, but Expanded Knowledge doesn't say you can take it multiple times. So you're going to have to stick with a few really powerful options and make do with that. If you're a Sorcerer, I suggest Glitterdust, Alter Self, and Shrink Item. Oh the fun. Of course, if you're willing to cheese out Kobolds can cast 4th level spells. Wheee!

Level 6 is about where the ToB melees compare favorably but not insanely to the other melees as that second attack means standard action manuevers aren't quite as dominant and Shock Trooper is already in play (which no low level manuevers work well with except perhaps Battle Leader's Charge). Yes, Fighters have Dungeoncrasher if they want but that's about all they get for their entire class... lame. Anyway, the T3s are definitely sitting pretty, and the T2/3 distinction is looking mighty fuzzy since while the T2s still have more powerful spells, the T3s have so many more options. Dread Necromancers are very annoyed due to lacking their 8th level dead raising abilities (take Arcane Disciple!), but their Fear Aura combined with Imperious Command (and maybe Never Outnumbered) is all but unstoppable, plus Sickening Grasp is just so fun, so they'll have to make due with causing all their enemies to cower in fear endlessly. Not quite what they want from a Necromancer class, but it's darn effective and if they can get their hands on a Rod of Defiance they can rebuke and control absolutely every undead they see anyway, so that's a start. Beguilers... well they have Glitterdust, so they have nothing to whine about. Warblades have their Iron Heart Surge, Crusaders and Warblades have White Raven Tactics, and Swordsages can teleport around invisibly while having a good time too. Swordsages usually have trouble not having enough feats, so E6 is good to them. And Factotums, of course, have impossibly high skills for this level, plus if they went with Iajuitsu Focus they're sitting pretty with all those extra feats. Their version of sneak attack actually increases (as they get loot and things that boost their skill) so they're having a great time... also they have Alter Self.

And so on. Basically, the tiers are compressed simply because the really big boys have exponential power increase with levels so they haven't properly taken off yet. As such, it's not as necessary to be on balanced tiers. But they're pretty much still intact.

JaronK

[Longcat]

What about White Dragonspawn Greater Draconic Rite of Passage Kobolds? Assuming LA Buyoff is allowed, they'd be the only arcane caster with 4th level spells.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Honestly, I don't think it changes very much. Clerics can still raise armies of the dead (Wizards can too if they get creative, and with all those extra feats why shouldn't a Wizard take Arcane Disciple?). Druids are stuck forever at a level where Fleshrakers and Hunting Bats are the king of the Wildshape Forms... oh no, whatever will they do? Plus their animal companions are still awesome. Many casters are limited only by a lack of feats, but in E6 that's exactly what they'll get (Arcane Thesis metamagic combos, anyone?). Archivists are basically exactly where Wizard are... sitting pretty. Plus they've got all those nice low level spells off the Paladin, Adept, and Ranger lists that they can go nuts with. Artificers end up having craft reserve issues, but they can canibalize loot to make fun toys and they can get access to fourth level spells via their crafting. So the Tier 1s are fine.

The T2s are having a bit more trouble due to a distinct lack of options. Luckily there are feats to help a bit with that, but Expanded Knowledge doesn't say you can take it multiple times. So you're going to have to stick with a few really powerful options and make do with that. If you're a Sorcerer, I suggest Glitterdust, Alter Self, and Shrink Item. Oh the fun. Of course, if you're willing to cheese out Kobolds can cast 4th level spells. Wheee!

Level 6 is about where the ToB melees compare favorably but not insanely to the other melees as that second attack means standard action manuevers aren't quite as dominant and Shock Trooper is already in play (which no low level manuevers work well with except perhaps Battle Leader's Charge). Yes, Fighters have Dungeoncrasher if they want but that's about all they get for their entire class... lame. Anyway, the T3s are definitely sitting pretty, and the T2/3 distinction is looking mighty fuzzy since while the T2s still have more powerful spells, the T3s have so many more options. Dread Necromancers are very annoyed due to lacking their 8th level dead raising abilities (take Arcane Disciple!), but their Fear Aura combined with Imperious Command (and maybe Never Outnumbered) is all but unstoppable, plus Sickening Grasp is just so fun, so they'll have to make due with causing all their enemies to cower in fear endlessly. Not quite what they want from a Necromancer class, but it's darn effective and if they can get their hands on a Rod of Defiance they can rebuke and control absolutely every undead they see anyway, so that's a start. Beguilers... well they have Glitterdust, so they have nothing to whine about. Warblades have their Iron Heart Surge, Crusaders and Warblades have White Raven Tactics, and Swordsages can teleport around invisibly while having a good time too. Swordsages usually have trouble not having enough feats, so E6 is good to them. And Factotums, of course, have impossibly high skills for this level, plus if they went with Iajuitsu Focus they're sitting pretty with all those extra feats. Their version of sneak attack actually increases (as they get loot and things that boost their skill) so they're having a great time... also they have Alter Self.

And so on. Basically, the tiers are compressed simply because the really big boys have exponential power increase with levels so they haven't properly taken off yet. As such, it's not as necessary to be on balanced tiers. But they're pretty much still intact.

JaronK

clerics can raise dead though there realy limited to what 12 hd which for there level is pritty nice... never mind including rebukeing them as well.
hmm i guess i can see why clerics could be tier 2-1 range.

Though i have to agree with saph that the tob classes should be tier 1 they do have a ton of versitility and power at those levels.

[Longcat]

They aren't necessarily limited to 12 HD. Between Evil Domain, Death Knell, Desecrate, Ioun Stones and Prayer Beads, there's plenty of options to bypass the limit.

[Sinfire Titan]

Though i have to agree with saph that the tob classes should be tier 1 they do have a ton of versitility and power at those levels.

Tier 1 means capable of rewriting reality by sneezing. Tier 3 means capable of responding to any situation the DM throws at them, but still be challenged by some of them. Tier 6 means it has very limited capacity for dealing with encounters, and is pigeonholed into a single role by class features (CW Samurai). Tier Truenamer is, well, exactly what it says on the tin.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Tier 1 means capable of rewriting reality by sneezing. Tier 3 means capable of responding to any situation the DM throws at them, but still be challenged by some of them. Tier 6 means it has very limited capacity for dealing with encounters, and is pigeonholed into a single role by class features (CW Samurai). Tier Truenamer is, well, exactly what it says on the tin.

Well if that is the case then all full casters... and bard esc casters should be tier 1-2...

I always understood it as a scale of how quickly/efficently they overcome encounters.

[Sinfire Titan]

Well if that is the case then all full casters... and bard esc casters should be tier 1-2...

I always understood it as a scale of how quickly/efficently they overcome encounters.

That's the rational behind JaronK's original version. There's more to it than overcoming encounters (though it did take that into account), but it was mostly a measure of sheer resources available to any given situation. Casters have several answers to anything you can think of, but Warblades and such have a very limited number of responses (granted, they still have the ability to respond to a large number of situations).

[JaronK]

Well if that is the case then all full casters... and bard esc casters should be tier 1-2...

I always understood it as a scale of how quickly/efficently they overcome encounters.

Feel free to read the original post including FAQs, I think I made it pretty clear. It's not just dealing with encounters (that's in there too). It's basically "given a situation, what can you do?" That's not even just standard encounters, but also "you're traveling along, what do you do?" If the answer is "I find a graveyard and raise an army" or "I teleport for a quick trip to the city of brass to purchase better gear" you're probably not a Tier 5 class...

Bards don't have as much potential, really, and the ToB classes are pretty much just going to be solid at given encounters, not change the face of the campaign.

I guess I have to put that road metaphore into the first few posts. It seemed to get the message across better.

JaronK

[KingRexII]

Thanks for the analyses so far! I really want to know how the class balance will work out if I were to run a game using E6, and all of this has given me some food for thought.


They aren't necessarily limited to 12 HD. Between Evil Domain, Death Knell, Desecrate, Ioun Stones and Prayer Beads, there's plenty of options to bypass the limit.

Be careful about what items are assumed to exist. Both the Ioun Stones and Prayer Beads (I am assuming you mean the bead of karma here) do not exist in E6 as easy-to-get items as there is no one who has the necessary caster level and/or spell to craft such items. As per the article, they would more than likely be artifact grade items.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Feel free to read the original post including FAQs, I think I made it pretty clear. It's not just dealing with encounters (that's in there too). It's basically "given a situation, what can you do?" That's not even just standard encounters, but also "you're traveling along, what do you do?" If the answer is "I find a graveyard and raise an army" or "I teleport for a quick trip to the city of brass to purchase better gear" you're probably not a Tier 5 class...

Bards don't have as much potential, really, and the ToB classes are pretty much just going to be solid at given encounters, not change the face of the campaign.

I guess I have to put that road metaphore into the first few posts. It seemed to get the message across better.

JaronK

I have it was a mis-communication on what encounter/situation meant... I understand though... I have read them (err the ones on BG i belive)

so I guess then you are correct as all full casters will be withing tier 1-2 in e6

[JaronK]

It can be so hard to get across what exactly they're measuring. I need to work on that.

JaronK

[Gnaeus]

I'd say that the tier 3 casters certainly rise above the tier 2s. By the time they have taken their third Arcane Disciple for 9 extra spells, is there any question that a Dread Necro or Beguiler is more flexible and powerful than a sorcerer who is stuck getting 1 spell per feat?

[Draz74]

Someone brought up Incarnum, which I meant to mention earlier. Incarnum classes (and, to some extent, Psionic classes, especially Ardent and Wilder) are more examples of classes that are normally terribly feat-starved, and therefore benefit more than average by going through high "epic" levels in E6.

[JaronK]

I'd say that the tier 3 casters certainly rise above the tier 2s. By the time they have taken their third Arcane Disciple for 9 extra spells, is there any question that a Dread Necro or Beguiler is more flexible and powerful than a sorcerer who is stuck getting 1 spell per feat?

But what if the Sorcerer is a Dragonwrought Kobold? Loredrake + Greater Draconic Rite + White Dragonspawn (with LA paydown) = 5th level spells. It's on! Lots of optimization there, but if you're going to be rocking the Arcane Disciples all over the place...

Plus only Sorcs get Wings of Flurry, which is going to be AWESOME in E6 when combined with Arcane Disciple and a horde of metamagics.

JaronK

[Stegyre]

Be careful about what items are assumed to exist. Both the Ioun Stones and Prayer Beads (I am assuming you mean the bead of karma here) do not exist in E6 as easy-to-get items as there is no one who has the necessary caster level and/or spell to craft such items. As per the article, they would more than likely be artifact grade items.
Ioun stone does not exist (requires character level 12 -- absolutely impossible in E6), but the karma bead (CL 9) is relatively easy:

Character level (6) + Artificer bonus (2) + Create Magic Tattoo (1)

CMT requires a CL 13, but a high casting CL is even easier to get than an elevated crafting CL, and there are even alternatives. By RAW, Inspire Spell Power should work for a +1 crafting CL.

The maximum crafting CL I've been able to come up with is CL 14, resorting to Death Knell. Good characters top out at CL 13.

Anything close to those levels is quite rare. They require massive uses of Harmonic Chorus, a pretty high-level bard spell, in context. My best way of fudging this is if a cStP Erudite is possible, with Earth Power, and lots and lots of plebian followers with Wild Talent, Psionic Talent, and a cognizance crystal they all share around.

Anything above CL 14 just isn't possible.

[Zincorium]

A totemist at level six, having taken the feat Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, and binding landshark boots to his totem and putting four essentia into it.

If they can make a 5 foot high jump, with a +12 bonus from the landshark boots, they can make four attacks at their full attack bonus, with a +4 bonus from enhancement, and dealing 1d6+4+str per attack.

As a totemist doesn't really need any ability scores other than constitution, strength can be raised to significant levels.

Also, while a 2nd chakra bind is nice, it's better to take a level of barbarian instead get rage.

All this taken into account, and considering that the totemist can also switch it out entirely for one of the energy damage binds, should the totemist be raised to tier 2?

[Aldizog]

Anything close to those levels is quite rare. They require massive uses of Harmonic Chorus, a pretty high-level bard spell, in context.
And Harmonic Chorus can't be cast in E6; as a 3rd-level bard spell, it requires a 7th-level bard to cast.

[Longcat]

And Harmonic Chorus can't be cast in E6; as a 3rd-level bard spell, it requires a 7th-level bard to cast.

White Dragonspawn Kobold with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and Extra spell can cast it.

[Tyndmyr]

What about White Dragonspawn Greater Draconic Rite of Passage Kobolds? Assuming LA Buyoff is allowed, they'd be the only arcane caster with 4th level spells.

Fourth? Hell, with that, you could get fifth, right? Well, if you used Loredrake, that is. Im not 100% certain, as Dragons of Eberron is one of the few books I don't know.

At any rate, you could end up with epic feats...that strikes me as particularly useful in E6. A high optimization game of E6 would be a blast.

[JaronK]

Epic Toughness! That would be hilarious.

But yes, you could pull off 5th level spells in E6 if you had LA buyoff to play with. Nothing beats the heck out of an E6 world like a Kobold on a mission. Then again, you can Pun Pun in E6 anyway.

JaronK

[Tyndmyr]

A world in which kobolds are king is a world I certainly want to live in. Er, as a kobold, of course.

[Aldizog]

White Dragonspawn Kobold with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and Extra spell can cast it.

I don't know exactly how that cheese works. Does it give you casting as if you were one level higher? Then if the game is well and truly capped at 6, there is no Bard 7 level for you to cast as. Or does it give you casting of one spell level higher? Then in E6, the bard spell list could just end at 2nd, the paladin/ranger at 1st, and the wiz/clr at 3rd. There simply are no higher-level spells for you to reach by one trick or another.

At least, that's how I'd do it.

[Longcat]

I don't know exactly how that cheese works. Does it give you casting as if you were one level higher?


You gain an increase in caster level, with the added benefit of gaining additional spells known.



Then if the game is well and truly capped at 6, there is no Bard 7 level for you to cast as. Or does it give you casting of one spell level higher?


RAW, it is capped at 6 HD. Casterlevel, however, is not capped by HD.



Then in E6, the bard spell list could just end at 2nd, the paladin/ranger at 1st, and the wiz/clr at 3rd. There simply are no higher-level spells for you to reach by one trick or another.

At least, that's how I'd do it.

Your interpretation might make a sensible house rule. In fact, if I were DMing, I'd probably rule similarly.

However, since we're talking about TO, we can generally assume that things are played RAW. And by RAW, the example sorcerer can cast 4th level spells, and therefore gain access to Harmonic Chorus via Extra Spell.

[Tyndmyr]

Eh, in E6, at least it kinda is partially balanced by the terrible physical stats a kobold has. Well, str in particular. Horrible carrying capacity and grapple checks matter more at level six.

[Aldizog]

RAW, it is capped at 6 HD. Casterlevel, however, is not capped by HD.

Yes, but you can increase caster level without increasing spells per day.
Under E6, there is no caster progression beyond 6th. Something that adds both caster level and caster progression would max out -- like a Ftr7/Suel10/AbjCh3 would have in 3.5. He'd get the CL but not any increase spells per day or new spell levels learned, because there simply is no progression beyond what he already has.

Thankfully, the E6 document emphasizes DM judgment calls and attention to game balance, so I don't think they need to go revise the rules to explicitly prohibit every possible game-breaking combo.

[Indon]

Someone brought up Incarnum, which I meant to mention earlier. Incarnum classes (and, to some extent, Psionic classes, especially Ardent and Wilder) are more examples of classes that are normally terribly feat-starved, and therefore benefit more than average by going through high "epic" levels in E6.

This. When every other class is down to picking Toughness, Incarnum classes are still taking feats. Well, if not for one fact...

Since many Incarnum feats are open to every class, eventually any E6 character is going to want a lot of the Incarnum feats anyway, for even as little benefit as they get out of it in comparison. Azure Toughness, for instance, is outright better than normal Toughness is.

[Draz74]

Also, while a 2nd chakra bind is nice, it's better to take a level of barbarian instead get rage.

Stop me if I'm wrong, but after level 6, can't you just take Open Least Chakra to get another chakra bind (on any of the chakras that the pureclass Totemist would have had access to at this level) anyway?

[Tyndmyr]

Wouldn't factotum be rather powerful in E6? The normal feat crunch due to needing font of inspiration repeatedly would go away, and you could enjoy all the regular feats as well as being decently competent at...pretty much everything.

[Draz74]

Wouldn't factotum be rather powerful in E6? The normal feat crunch due to needing font of inspiration repeatedly would go away, and you could enjoy all the regular feats as well as being decently competent at...pretty much everything.

6th Level is actually the closest thing Factotum has to a dead level, and their "best" ability, Cunning Surge, is tantalizingly close but totally unattainable (Level 8). They end up with one 2nd-level spell and one 1st-level spell per day.

So they'd be excellent skill monkeys as always, but otherwise, I think, fairly unimpressive, even with loads of Font of Inspiration plus a few normal feats.

[Stegyre]

And Harmonic Chorus can't be cast in E6; as a 3rd-level bard spell, it requires a 7th-level bard to cast.
Spell Compendium changed it to 2nd level, so all that other discussion about how to get it? Don't worry. :smallwink:

In any case, higher level spells (actually, up to 7th level) are available through Artificers. :smallsmile:

It really goes without saying, but this makes Artificers extremely powerful in E6. (Assuming the DM doesn't houserule away higher level spells.)

EDIT: Most of the discussion so far has been focused upon single-class power. I'd love to get into an E6 optimization discussion, including multi-classing. (Actually tried starting a thread on that subject months ago, which went absolutely nowhere.)

Cleric dipping seems disproportionately powerful in E6 (a grossly disproportionate benefit for one of your precious six levels).

I'm also a big fan of Warblade or Swordsage 4, to qualify for all of the Diamond Mind save maneuvers (TOB 1, something, something, TOB 2-4).

Ardent cheese is good. (Ardent 1, something(s) 4, Practiced Manifester, Ardent 2, for at least one 3rd level power, and any 2nd level powers you want through Expanded Knowledge.)

As already noted, Artificer 6 or Psionic Artificer 6 is king.

If rebuilding and PrC levels are possible, many other paths look extremely interesting.

What E6 builds do others fantasize about?

[JaronK]

Yeah, Factotums would never get the level 8 ability, but they'd have plenty of inspiration. That means they'd be able to and Int to hit and damage all day long, but that's about it.

Really high skill checks though.

JaronK

[doc225]

couldn't you use cunning surge as the capstone?

[Person_Man]

I personally would put Incarnate and Totemist at or near the top of any E6 power or tier list, because they're extremely versatile and you can gain additional soulmelds, essentia and chakra binds with Feats. (Limited by your Constitution score, the number of body slots that you have available, and potentially your DM's reading of the Open Chakra Feats, which are vague).

Sorcerer 1/Totemist 2/Incarnate 3 is particularly ridiculous, thanks to the Share Soulmelds, Improved Familiar, and Practiced Caster feats (plus the ability to Share Spells).

But even pure Incarnate 6 can get:

Infinitely renewable Necrocarnum Zombie, usable on anything you kill with 6HD or less, at no cost.
DR 8/magic.
4d6 retributive fire damage against any enemy that hits you with a melee attack.
+4d6 Electricity damage to any melee attack you make once per round.
+10 Insight bonus to almost any Skill.

Now the above is limited somewhat by your essentia pool. But the it's also an out of the box, rules as written, no shenanigans Incarnate, prior to any Feat selection.

[Gavinfoxx]

Tier 1:

Venerable, Loredrake, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Spellhoarding, White Dragonspawn, Dragonspawn Abomination with Magically Talented, Dragonwrought, Desert Kobold, Dragonblood, Battle, Stalwart Sorcerer, with the LA Bought off!

Venerable: PHB
Loredrake: Dragons of Eberron
Dragonwrought: Races of the Dragon
Spellhoarding: Dragon Magazine #313
White Dragonspawn: Dragonlance Campaign Setting
Dragonspawn Abomination with Magically Talented: Bestiary of Krynn
Greater Draconic Rite of Passage: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a
Desert Kobold: Unearthed Arcana, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm
Battle Sorcerer: unearthed arcana, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer
Dragonblood Sorcerer: Races of the Dragon
Stalwart Sorcerer: Complete Mage

That gets you... uhhh... what level wizard casting?

[dextercorvia]

Tier 1:

Cheddar

I raise you one Versatile Domain Generalist for 9th level spells at first level, without needing to read the chart past 6th level.

[Endarire]

According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge), Expanded Knowledge can be retaken. So go, go Psion!

And if you're an Elan, you can retake Psionic Talent, which, coupled with your Resilience racial ability, can make you very formidible. (Negate 2 HP of damage per PP spent.)

[kardar233]

I think SotAO Mystic Ranger hits T1 due to being a Lightning Warrior with an Animal Companion. I mean, it doesn't even sacrifice power for flavor!

Add Wildshape in there too and it gets really fancy.

[Gavinfoxx]

I thought Mystic Ranger and Wildshape Ranger didn't stack?

[toapat]

That gets you... uhhh... what level wizard casting?

none, all that boosting is for Sorc levels.

Dragonspawn Abomination can not be applied to true dragons (Dragonwrought Kobolds), if it could be applied, you could have theoretically infinite casterlevel, although statistically you only have a 5% to get +1 sorc level.

every subsitution and ACF is useless. you are a 10th level sorc in a world of lvl 6s, you are a god.

Spellhoarding is an interesting situation though, you are a 10th level Wizard who gets his Wizard level from Sorcerer. the problem is of course, magic of higher spell level then 3rd is already an artifact, you need 5th level scrolls with which to inscribe your spellbook.

[Golden Ladybug]

Wildshaping SoTAO SS Mystic Rangers are pretty much the best around, but since Dragon Magazine is required and the combination of Shooting Star Ranger and Wildshaping Ranger is questionable, its doubtful to appear at every table.

Sorcerer's have it tougher than most ('cept for Kobolds), because of the way their spell progression works. They simply don't get enough spells to really shine without a fair amount of optimisation being involved.

Warlocks are fun, but you have to think long and hard about your Lesser Invocation. You only get one...you can have ALL of the Least Invocations though, because feats are cheap. Their damage isn't so hot either, and they can't even go Glaivelock to compensate.

Anyone who can get a bunch of Natural Weapons is going to shine in an E6 environment, just because of the sheer number of attacks they can bring to the table. PsyWars and Totemists fill this niche pretty well.

But yeah, as people have said, its pretty close to the Tier List normally, but with smaller gaps between all the classes


none, all that boosting is for Sorc levels.

Dragonspawn Abomination can not be applied to true dragons (Dragonwrought Kobolds), if it could be applied, you could have theoretically infinite casterlevel, although statistically you only have a 5% to get +1 sorc level.

every subsitution and ACF is useless. you are a 10th level sorc in a world of lvl 6s, you are a god.

Spellhoarding is an interesting situation though, you are a 10th level Wizard who gets his Wizard level from Sorcerer. the problem is of course, magic of higher spell level then 3rd is already an artifact, you need 5th level scrolls with which to inscribe your spellbook.

Apparently Artificers can create up to 7th level spells, according to Stegyre :smallwink:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wild Shape Mystic Ranger 6 with Sword of the Arcane Order, Natural Spell, and Extra Wild Shape, plus Magical Training to have his own expandable spellbook, is probably the standard to which Tier 1's should be held. That gets the complete Ranger chassis (HD, BAB, saves, skills), has 24 hours worth of Wild Shape (Fleshraker) per day from 4 uses at 6 hrs each, and casts up to 3rd level divine spells from the Ranger and Wizard spell lists even when wild shaped. Wildling Clasps are still available in E6, and your only important stats after 6th are Con and Wis. You can even cast both Snowsight and Obscuring Snow from Frostburn.

Bloodline levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) should probably be included in the Tier 1 category. They increase your caster level and max skill ranks, as well as your effective class level in any given class, but they don't increase your character level. That means they don't count against your six-level-limit, and you can use them to meet the skill requirements for a prestige class sooner. For example, an Illumian with Improved Sigil: Krau could go Archivist 1/ Bloodline 1/ Wizard 1/ Mystic Theurge 4. Any full caster at 6th level with three Bloodline levels will have a caster level of 9th, which means you can craft +3 weapons and armor, take Craft Rod, etc. There's no limit to how many bloodlines you can get (unless you get all of them), so you can put as many bloodline levels on a build as you want. A Druid would count his Bloodline levels toward his effective level for his Animal Companion's benefits, as well as his max HD and duration for Wild Shape. A Fighter with enough Bloodline levels could get Greater Weapon Focus/Specialization and even Weapon Supremacy, since there's no BAB requirement for any of those.

Prepared casters can afford to lose one level of spellcasting to become stronger characters. For example, you could go Beguiler 1/ Wizard 5 and get Versatile Spellcaster for spontaneous access to your 1st and 2nd level Wizard spells via your Beguiler spell slots, as well as access to up to 2nd level Beguiler spells. Human Paragon and Elf Paragon can be useful. A Monk dip on a Cleric or Druid for Wis to AC is even beneficial, especially with (Extended) Luminous Armor. Martial Adepts work very similar to this, you can multiclass two levels and still get 3rd level maneuvers.

The point I'm trying to make is, tiers for E6 characters isn't about individual classes, it's more about how much a given character can get out of six class levels. Very few classes are worth taking all six levels on an E6 character, so a tier system for individual classes isn't really going to work.