[3.5] Otyugh Hole: Who uses it? Why? How?

[ErrantX]

I've seen a lot of mention of using the special location from Comp Scoundrel called the Otyugh Hole, where folks go and get Iron Will for 3k gold. Okay, so, umm.... what?

Let me explain. I understand from a CharOp perspective. It's a feat for basically free. Iron Will is often a PreReq feat, or at the very least shores up a weak Will save from multiclassing. Okay, I get that.

Who actually uses this in their games? Why do you use it (beyond the obvious above)? How do you justify it in game? Who voluntarily jumps into such a rancid pit and hangs out? This is something I just don't get. How do people use it in their games to justify IN CHARACTER why they're doing this, or is this something you ask your DM to use and have them torture their PC for the feat?

Just a curiosity. Help a man out and tell him what you do and think on the subject.

Thanks!
-X

[deuxhero]

Most classes that need iron will/skill focus are weaker even without the requirements.

[Douglas]

Most classes that need iron will/skill focus are weaker even without the requirements.
Incantatrix.

[Sinfire Titan]

Incantatrix.

Ur-Priest.

[Kantolin]

Why do you use it (beyond the obvious above)? How do you justify it in game? Who voluntarily jumps into such a rancid pit and hangs out?

Both in real life and especially in a fantasy setting, people are willing to do astonishing things for the purpose of power. Heck, people are willing to do amazing things for the /potential/ for power - they just have to think it works.

Now, it states 'But those who survive the ordeal become underworld legends'. I can think of a bunch of people and archetypes who, hearing that, would go attempt that to one-up the previous legend, to prove themselves, to show off, or because the fact that /Joe/ of all people went through it and now everyone's busy watching /Joe/ and nobody's noting your accomplishments just because he went and sat in a pit for awhile...

[2xMachina]

Well, it's pretty IC to go get the feats from somewhere rather than spend the rare feats you get.

Sit in a pit for a week or spend 1/7 of my lifelong resource. I'd rather sit.

[Zaydos]

We're talking people who sale their souls for power here. People who will do unspeakable acts for it. So yes if the place is supposed to give power I can think of many people who wouldn't even hesitate.

Of characters I've played:
Zantar: He'd have gone, this will make me more capable of defending my friends and loved ones against the aberrant hordes I fight against. It will make me smell for a bit. This is gross. And then have gone in. He had 4 good will save classes too so he didn't need another +2.
"Laughing Tom": Ooh smelly hole. Strange magic this be... I will investigate. Ooh cool it made my will stronger... He'd go in just from curiosity, if he knew its effect he'd go to discover how it works.
Erdrick: No. He was a fighter barbarian with a hatred and superstition of magic.
Nent: I forget. Possibly he'd be willing to do it out of curiosity or if other PCs were doing it but he wasn't out for power.
Uskgix (dragon wyrmling cohort the party picked up/raised): I need to get stronger to help my foster parents. Oh gods this is going to stink. Dives in.

So I can see characters doing it.

[ErrantX]

Well, it's pretty IC to go get the feats from somewhere rather than spend the rare feats you get.

Sit in a pit for a week or spend 1/7 of my lifelong resource. I'd rather sit.

Yes, but in IC, do you really understand how that works? Do you know how many feats you personally have IRL? I can't follow your logic there.

How do you, as a DM, work this in? How do you, as a PC, decide to research such a thing and then dive into the cesspit?

-X

[deuxhero]

Ur-Priest.

I said "most".

[Heliomance]

Erdrick: No. He was a fighter barbarian with a hatred and superstition of magic.

The Otyugh hole isn't magic. It's simply the worst prison in the world. Spending a week in it scars you irrevocably, and the Iron Will feat represents the mental shields you had to lock around your psyche to avoid going mad.

[Zaydos]

The Otyugh hole isn't magic. It's simply the worst prison in the world. Spending a week in it scars you irrevocably, and the Iron Will feat represents the mental shields you had to lock around your psyche to avoid going mad.

Then Erdrick would laugh and go right in to prove his manliness; plus mental shields are good, they help you kill vile wizards.

Although Nent almost certaintly wouldn't in that case.

Tom would for fun; can't be worse than his old teacher. Zantar might not. Uskgix would.

[FishAreWet]

Everytime I've ever seen it taken, it's worked into backstory.

Which is really simple to do. What adventurer hasn't been to prison? :smallcool:

[Heliomance]

I would imagine it's the kind of place that, no matter how gung-ho you were going in, afterwards everyone has the "You don't KNOW, man! You weren't THERE!" reaction to their time in it.

[Akal Saris]

I've never bothered to use the otyugh pit on a character (in part because I haven't played a character with a PrC that required Iron Will yet), but I'd probably go with the "magical prison changes a man" backstory.

Though I probably wouldn't allow my PCs to "buy" the location as part of their backstory unless that PC's character was much weaker than the rest of the party. "Free" feats, especially when linked to incantatrix and the like, are not generally something I like to see in-game. Especially when some of my games already give out free feats via corruption/depravity rules.

[jiriku]

Mmm, I used the Otyugh Hole to pick up Iron Will for my incantatrix. He's a homicidal, pyromaniac githyanki sorcerer specializing in all manner of destructive magics. It's not hard to imagine how such a character might find himself thrown into such an awful prison.

[Bibliomancer]

So, the associated gp cost is similar to that of a magic location, meaning that the DM subtracts it from the party wealth, correct? Why would the other players agree to lose money so that you could get a feat?

An interesting, if overpowered, concept. Shouldn't it be a permanent +2 bonus on will saves, so that you can train to improve your willpower even more and to avoid using it to qualify for prestige classes?

[FishAreWet]

So, the associated gp cost is similar to that of a magic location, meaning that the DM subtracts it from the party wealth, correct? Why would the other players agree to lose money so that you could get a feat?

No, you buy it with your Wealth By Level.

[Sinfire Titan]

So, the associated gp cost is similar to that of a magic location, meaning that the DM subtracts it from the party wealth, correct? Why would the other players agree to lose money so that you could get a feat?

An interesting, if overpowered, concept. Shouldn't it be a permanent +2 bonus on will saves, so that you can train to improve your willpower even more and to avoid using it to qualify for prestige classes?

No, and no.

[Glass Mouse]

So, the Otyugh Hole is a horrible prison... which stinks... which you have to develop a mental shield against in order to avoid insanity?

Why ever would you have to pay 3k gold for that?

(yes, I'm more concerned with the IC reasons for paying that... Does the GM really go "Yeah, so you murdered that entire orphanage; these guys are throwing you in jail... and charging you 3k to do it!"?)

[Longcat]

Let's see: I've already forsaken the gods, and in some settings (e.g. Forgotten Realms), severe punishment ensues. Compared to that, a few days in some stinking hole don't seem that bad.

At the very least, there won't be any non-consensual intercourse in the shower room.

[Milskidasith]

So, the Otyugh Hole is a horrible prison... which stinks... which you have to develop a mental shield against in order to avoid insanity?

Why ever would you have to pay 3k gold for that?

(yes, I'm more concerned with the IC reasons for paying that... Does the GM really go "Yeah, so you murdered that entire orphanage; these guys are throwing you in jail... and charging you 3k to do it!"?)

Could be reparations for your crime, or just subtracted from the next loot pile, or in your backstory.

[Douglas]

Why ever would you have to pay 3k gold for that?

(yes, I'm more concerned with the IC reasons for paying that... Does the GM really go "Yeah, so you murdered that entire orphanage; these guys are throwing you in jail... and charging you 3k to do it!"?)
You don't. The 3k value is only for WBL purposes. If you create a character above level 1, you can insert the location into your backstory and gain its benefit by sacrificing - out of game, in character building - that amount of money. If you encounter the location in game and the DM is carefully monitoring and controlling the amount of equipment you get, he counts getting the location's benefit as equivalent to 3k gold worth of loot. If you, as a player, visit the location in game and stay there long enough to qualify, you get the benefit free of charge.

[Sinfire Titan]

So, the Otyugh Hole is a horrible prison... which stinks... which you have to develop a mental shield against in order to avoid insanity?

Why ever would you have to pay 3k gold for that?

(yes, I'm more concerned with the IC reasons for paying that... Does the GM really go "Yeah, so you murdered that entire orphanage; these guys are throwing you in jail... and charging you 3k to do it!"?)

Fining you 3K in reparations and jail time. Sounds about right.

[Signmaker]

Free fuel for a chaos swap. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Alternatively, you could be level 20+ and realize that a free feat for 3000 gp, even one not immediately useful, is still useful.

[Twilight Jack]

Based upon this cost, would it then be reasonable to state that a wondrous item which grants access to a feat when worn should be worth about the same amount?

I've always wondered why a crafter couldn't install a feat into an item for the wearer/bearer's use. I've never found any rules for it at any rate. The metamagic rods might have been a good baseline, but they are so very specific in their functions that I felt they didn't make a very good baseline.

[Tyndmyr]

Based upon this cost, would it then be reasonable to state that a wondrous item which grants access to a feat when worn should be worth about the same amount?

That feat, yes...worth 3k. Any other feat, worth 3k, plus cost of chaos shuffle via scrolls.

After all, Iron Will, while not terrible, isn't exactly the most powerful of feats.

[Zaydos]

Crystal Mask of Mind Shielding (I forget the exact name, from XPH and MIC) grants a +4 Insight bonus to Will saves for 10,000 GP; that is 5/8th the cost of a cloak of resistance +4 (+4 resistance bonus to all saves). So I'd say a +X Y bonus to Will saves is 5/8ths that of +X resistance bonus to all (and a Y bonus to all is normally double). So 2500 for a +2 to Will saves (with body slot) is fairly reasonable; as this stacks with everything normally it would be slightly higher; I actually had my DM allow a +2 competence bonus to Will saves item.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Spending a week in a horrible place could be construed as a rite of passage.

Barbarians would do it.

[averagejoe]

Fining you 3K in reparations and jail time. Sounds about right.

Now I have images of adventurers insisting that they be punished by being thrown into the otyugh hole, against the fairminded judgment of the public officials. :smallbiggrin:

[Grumman]

I have used it at character creation, because it helps define the character background and also helps me meet the prerequisites for a few PrCs. As this particular adventurer's origin story is basically "Got kidnapped, got turned into a Spellwarped, escaped her captor", starting off with Iron Will but a lot less equipment than her comrades makes sense.


So, the Otyugh Hole is a horrible prison... which stinks... which you have to develop a mental shield against in order to avoid insanity?

Why ever would you have to pay 3k gold for that?
You don't - you get thrown into that dark pit and have to fight your way out, but you don't get any worthwhile loot from the things you kill. You don't pay 3,000 gp for the privilige, you just lose 3,000 gp in opportunity cost.

Alternatively (the way I treated it), you get your ~3,000 gp of stuff confiscated and it becomes part of some NPC's treasure.

[Keld Denar]

Hire a random joe NPC to point at you and shout: She turned me into a newt!

I got better.

[Thespianus]

I can see the Hole being used in background stories, subject to DM approval, etc. But how would you play it out in a campaign?

Player: "My character - Peter Powerhungry - goes looking for the worst imaginable hole to strengthen his spirit"
DM: "He finds a cold waterfall and he stands underneath it for a week."
Player: "Do I get any benefits from this?"
DM: "No. Your pants get wet."
Player: "Then I go look for a worse place to harden myself"
Dm: "Oh. Ok. You stand on the roof of a house in a raging storm for a while."
Player: "..And..?"
DM: "Your pants get wet. Again."
Player: "Damn. How about that magic hole over there?"
DM: "Curse you and your sly quest for power. Yes, you sit in a hole for a while, you get Iron Will for 3000 GP".

;)

I mean... I've found the magic locations to be kind of..well.. hard to really work into the plot in a way that doesn't reek of power-greed.

Then again, I'm kind of reluctant to have characters go look for the exact magic item they want as well, so maybe it's just me. If my character is used to a Rapier, he would probably use his Rapier +1 even if he finds a Shortsword +2.

[Demented]

I imagine this would be a lot more fun with the sanity rules.

"Of course you can get an extra feat! In exchange for 3000gp, a sanity check whenever something foul is in the air..."
"Wait, maybe this is a bad idea."
"...and a few ranks in Knowledge (forbidden lore: otyugh reproduction)..."
"No! No! Just no!"

[2xMachina]

Yes, but in IC, do you really understand how that works? Do you know how many feats you personally have IRL? I can't follow your logic there.

How do you, as a DM, work this in? How do you, as a PC, decide to research such a thing and then dive into the cesspit?

-X

Well, I know I don't have Iron Will. I also know that feats are rare, by definition of feats alone. At low lvls, I know 1 more feat would be A LOT, considering how much feats I have at this time.

The feat is pretty much like a cert. Say, employers want to see more certs before hiring (common really. or so my high school teachers told me). I know I've like 2,3 certs? Do I take a 3 year uni course, or a 1 week crash course that gives me the same cert? Crash Course please.

[Grumman]

I mean... I've found the magic locations to be kind of..well.. hard to really work into the plot in a way that doesn't reek of power-greed.
The obvious method to introduce it is to assume the BBEG or some other organisation found it first, and has been taking advantage of it since then. For example, a BBEG whose fortress is built over an Otyugh Den might have a cadre of shock troops with Extended Rage as a bonus feat. If the adventurers are captured and are thrown in or if they win and decide to clear it out, they may get the benefit.

[Xenogears]

I can see the Hole being used in background stories, subject to DM approval, etc. But how would you play it out in a campaign?

Player: "My character - Peter Powerhungry - goes looking for the worst imaginable hole to strengthen his spirit"
DM: "He finds a cold waterfall and he stands underneath it for a week."
Player: "Do I get any benefits from this?"
DM: "No. Your pants get wet."
Player: "Then I go look for a worse place to harden myself"
Dm: "Oh. Ok. You stand on the roof of a house in a raging storm for a while."
Player: "..And..?"
DM: "Your pants get wet. Again."
Player: "Damn. How about that magic hole over there?"
DM: "Curse you and your sly quest for power. Yes, you sit in a hole for a while, you get Iron Will for 3000 GP".

;)

I mean... I've found the magic locations to be kind of..well.. hard to really work into the plot in a way that doesn't reek of power-greed.

Then again, I'm kind of reluctant to have characters go look for the exact magic item they want as well, so maybe it's just me. If my character is used to a Rapier, he would probably use his Rapier +1 even if he finds a Shortsword +2.

1) "I'm on a quest for self improveemt. I've heard of a place so horrible that those who survive it gain formidable mental defenses. I will find it."

2) "I must prove to the others that I am the strongest. I will go to this 'Otyugh Hole' and show them all that nothing is too difficult for Garushik the Mighty."

Both work fine. They are simple, easy, fairly common, non-alignment specific backgrounds that would seek this place out.

[Irreverent Fool]

...Though I probably wouldn't allow my PCs to "buy" the location as part of their backstory...

But why would they ever have it there otherwise?

obnoxious
sig

[Ernir]

In a world where people sell their souls for feats, the Otyugh hole seems rather reasonable...

[Tyndmyr]

If it's part of the backstory, they should have the attendant mechanical bonus.

And clearly, if they get the bonus, they should take the according penalty for the sake of balance.

I see no problem with that.

[Foryn Gilnith]

You are the Goddamn Batman. You make an obscenely high knowledge check when researching an organization. You discover that they have a "special ops" order, that learning those special techniques requires abnormal mental hardening, and that a surprising number of criminals have joined the order. You do some moar research and find out that time in the Otyugh Hole could teach these abnormal mental techniques.

Sort of like how Batman got that whole Zur-En-Arrh thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_of_Zur-En-Arrh) by traumatizing himself (or something, haven't read that arc in a while); PCs get prestige class powers by entering the Otyugh Hole.


Then again, I'm kind of reluctant to have characters go look for the exact magic item they want as well, so maybe it's just me.

You can create and quantify magic item effects. Magical locations are notably harder to research or replicate.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

1) "I'm on a quest for self improveemt. I've heard of a place so horrible that those who survive it gain formidable mental defenses. I will find it."

2) "I must prove to the others that I am the strongest. I will go to this 'Otyugh Hole' and show them all that nothing is too difficult for Garushik the Mighty."

Both work fine. They are simple, easy, fairly common, non-alignment specific backgrounds that would seek this place out.

3) "I didn't do it guv'ner, I swear!"

[Runestar]

You know how your parents used to say "No trip to the zoo if you didn't do well in your exams?"

Here, it is "No trip to the Otyugh hole if you don't come in first in class!" :smallamused:

[deuxhero]

That feat, yes...worth 3k. Any other feat, worth 3k, plus cost of chaos shuffle via scrolls.

Pft, you can just grab a familar, DCS awareness, move 5 feet away, move 5 feet closer DCS awareness

[Synovia]

Well, it's pretty IC to go get the feats from somewhere rather than spend the rare feats you get.

Sit in a pit for a week or spend 1/7 of my lifelong resource. I'd rather sit.

"1/7 of my lifelong resource" is completely meta/OOC. The idea that a character would justify it as that IC is utterly ridiculous.

There are plenty of reasons to justify it, but this isn't one.

[Story]

You can usually turn meta reasons into IC by changing the wording a bit.

For example, spend a week sitting in a hole to develop skills that would normally take years of training.

[Synovia]

You can usually turn meta reasons into IC by changing the wording a bit.

For example, spend a week sitting in a hole to develop skills that would normally take years of training.
Except there are no skills being learned.

Spending a week in the hole to toughen up makes sense. "To avoid using 1/7 of my lifetime feats" is just not IC in any sense.

[Pickford]

No, you buy it with your Wealth By Level.

Not according to the Complete Scoundrel.



This entry provides the gp value of the conferred ability. Although the abilities can never be bought or sold, they can be substituted for treasure of like value and count toward the benefitting character's overall wealth.

never be bought or sold. If you managed to survive it (surviving a week in a prison without food/water, alone and possibly pestered by ghouls/otyughs is easier said than done) that just means your end take of gold from an adventure would be reduced by 3k. Not that you can spend 3k to access it (though I suppose you could bribe a guard to get you in, but maybe not).

I find it unlikely that a 3rd level character who has no combat focus is going to survive being placed, without gear and alone, in such a pit as is required.

Edit:

That feat, yes...worth 3k. Any other feat, worth 3k, plus cost of chaos shuffle via scrolls.

Chaos shuffle? I googled and found another thread attempting to explain it...but...it shouldn't work.


The subject immediately gains one Abyssal heritor feat for which it qualifies, chosen by you at the time of casting.
If the subject does not qualify for the designated feat, the spell fails.


Prerequisite: Evil Outsiders Only

How many people are playing evil outsiders?

[Story]

There are a lot easier and cheaper ways to get extra feats for DCFS anyway. But that's TO.

Anyway, you can buy it if it's part of your backstory. Other than that, you just have to hope your DM is nice.

[Rubik]

In one game, I played a boy who started life as an illithid breeding experiment. His parents were chosen due to their intellect, his mind was scrambled, he was instilled with incredibly formidable psionic powers, and he had impulses to release a horrific elder evil implanted directly into his psyche.

I bought Iron Will via the Otyugh Hole as part of his backstory and refluffed it to the psychic scarring he developed in the illithid laboratories.

Is there anyone here who insists that this was the wrong thing to do?

[Pickford]

In one game, I played a boy who started life as an illithid breeding experiment. His parents were chosen due to their intellect, his mind was scrambled, he was instilled with incredibly formidable psionic powers, and he had impulses to release a horrific elder evil implanted directly into his psyche.

I bought Iron Will via the Otyugh Hole as part of his backstory and refluffed it to the psychic scarring he developed in the illithid laboratories.

Is there anyone here who insists that this was the wrong thing to do?

I would only maintain it was not the RAW thing to do.

[Mnemnosyne]

Whenever I use it, I tend to justify it in backstory with a prison sentence for something heinous. On one occasion, my character, a binder who was very hostile toward gods and churches she felt were taking advantage of their worshipers, giving them the bare minimum they could get away with (and who persecute binders for no good reason) got captured and put into it as punishment for her heretical 'crimes'. Naturally, she went on to PrC into Ur-Priest with the help of her Iron Will feat.

In-game, I don't think I could justify having most of my characters seek out such an experience, because they're not the type that would subject themselves to something like that for either power (if they knew about the feat) or bravado (if they don't know about the feat but just want to do something that proves how awesome they are). However, both of those seem plausible justifications to seek out the experience. Additionally, if something sufficiently scarring did happen to one of my characters, I might ask the DM for it to count in much the same way and give the feat.

[Rubik]

I would only maintain it was not the RAW thing to do.Fair enough.

[SilverSavio]

I made a Mailman for a friends campaign once that was, well, a mailman, and the Otyugh Hole was part of the course curriculum for mailman training because one must endure the worst pits of the world to deliver the mail.

[Douglas]

Chaos shuffle? I googled and found another thread attempting to explain it...but...it shouldn't work.





How many people are playing evil outsiders?
If you are referring to this thing (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Abyssal_Heritage), that is homebrew and has nothing to do with the actual WotC content that Embrace the Dark Chaos refers to. Heck, even if you were playing an evil outsider and that particular homebrew feat were allowed, Embrace the Dark Chaos would not let you gain it - it's tagged as a [Fiend] feat, not an [Abyssal Heritor] feat.

Check the feats section of Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss for the feats referenced, pages 82 to 87. Four of them have no prerequisites at all, and the rest are fairly easy to qualify for.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yes, but in IC, do you really understand how that works? Do you know how many feats you personally have IRL? I can't follow your logic there.

How do you, as a DM, work this in? How do you, as a PC, decide to research such a thing and then dive into the cesspit?

-X

How is it not always crowded?

But, seriously, this sounds like a great place to ambush people. I'll have to read about the location myself, but I'd think we'd see bandits and assassins flocking around the hole like seagulls, unless the knowledge of the benefit was very obscure. Over time, though, word spreads.

Sounds like a good plot hook!:smallcool:

[Mnemnosyne]

Actually, knowledge of it has to be obscure; if a great many people know of it and claim to have visited, it stops conferring its benefit. Also, it can only grant its benefit to one person per week.

[Norin]

Oh unholiest of corrupted and desecrated vile necromantic deeds!

This thread was from 2010. :smallbiggrin: :smallwink:

[Story]

Whenever I use it, I tend to justify it in backstory with a prison sentence for something heinous.

My current character had a backstory spent mostly in prison, but I didn't have enough WBL to get it.


Oh unholiest of corrupted and desecrated vile necromantic deeds!

This thread was from 2010. :smallbiggrin: :smallwink:

I should have known when a thread I'd only seen before in the archives popped back up on the front page. But I just assumed it wasn't as old as I thought it was.

[Slipperychicken]

Why ever would you have to pay 3k gold for that?


Nobody pays for it. That's the value of the feat, which counts against your WBL.

[Shining Wrath]

Actually, knowledge of it has to be obscure; if a great many people know of it and claim to have visited, it stops conferring its benefit. Also, it can only grant its benefit to one person per week.

Which means that if someone manages to kill you after you've been in there a day, they can climb in and start their own week.

If a great many rogues / assassins / other bad people know of this place, the smell of the rotting corpses around the hole will match that of the hole itself - and the otyughs will be very fat.

[TuggyNE]

Now I have images of adventurers insisting that they be punished by being thrown into the otyugh hole, against the fairminded judgment of the public officials. :smallbiggrin:

This right here is exactly why SAN loss rules in D&D are pointless: no adventurer worthy of the name has any to speak of.


Which means that if someone manages to kill you after you've been in there a day, they can climb in and start their own week.

If a great many rogues / assassins / other bad people know of this place, the smell of the rotting corpses around the hole will match that of the hole itself - and the otyughs will be very fat.

Only now, at the end, do you understand.

[Daftendirekt]

The Otyugh hole isn't magic. It's simply the worst prison in the world.

Epiphany: The Otyugh Hole doesn't give you Iron Will. It turns you into Bane.

[Akal Saris]

My current character had a backstory spent mostly in prison, but I didn't have enough WBL to get it.



I should have known when a thread I'd only seen before in the archives popped back up on the front page. But I just assumed it wasn't as old as I thought it was.

I was rather surprised to see my own post on page 1! But I guess it's comforting to know that topics which interested me in 2010 still interest me today :smallbiggrin:

And I STILL haven't used the otyugh hole with a character!

[chainlink]

A couple people touched on this but I'll clarify. It doesn't HAVE to be an "Otyugh Hole".

For one of my players it was shipwrecked at sea, floating on a chunk of wood under blistering sun and freezing nights, fighting to stay alive against the environment and creatures trying to eat him while the ghost of the betrayed Captain visited every night.

For another it was a broken limb in a disease ridden jungle laced with psychotropic fungi that would absorb his mind if he stayed still too long while hunted by carnivorous grippli.

Stuff like that. The whole awful prison is arguably cooler though.

[kkplx]

How many people are playing evil outsiders?

Counterquestion, could an (non-evil, non-outsider) Artificer casting the spell from a scroll cast it on himself, emulating the Race and Alignment required? He'd have to hit a higher UMD check, obviously, probably +15, +5 for race, +10 for alignment, on top of his 35 base check for casting a CL 15 scroll.