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Lysander
2010-01-07, 02:17 PM
Think about this. Take two PCs, a level 1 fighter and a level 1 wizard that set off adventuring on their own. Theoretically the fighter can level up faster because he can keep killing things. Once he can buy a ring of sustenance he only needs to sleep two hours a day. Meanwhile the wizard always needs at least a 9 hour break to prepare spells, plus trips back to town to replenish his spell component pouch.

Sure by higher levels the wizard is more powerful, but the fighter has a higher level. And that's when he takes Leadership and gets himself an npc wizard cohort that's a higher level than the PC wizard. By the time the wizard reaches level 20 the fighter is epic level and has an epic level wizard as a class feature.

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 02:20 PM
And his epic level wizard cohort realizes he wears the pants in the relationship and disintigrates the epic level fighter.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-07, 02:22 PM
Think about this. Take two PCs, a level 1 fighter and a level 1 wizard that set off adventuring on their own. Theoretically the fighter can level up faster because he can keep killing things. Once he can buy a ring of sustenance he only needs to sleep two hours a day. Meanwhile the wizard always needs at least a 9 hour break to prepare spells, plus trips back to town to replenish his spell component pouch.

Sure by higher levels the wizard is more powerful, but the fighter has a higher level. And that's when he takes Leadership and gets himself an npc wizard cohort that's a higher level than the PC wizard. By the time the wizard reaches level 20 the fighter is epic level and has an epic level wizard as a class feature.

And yet the Fighter has no way to avoid encounters (which counts as beating them, as per the DMG itself), thus will be more likely to die than the Wizard. Meanwhile, the Wizard can take his sweet time with the encounters, possibly using Precocious Apprentice or judicious use of Illusions to deceive the enemies he can't kill.

Lysander
2010-01-07, 02:22 PM
And his epic level wizard cohort realizes he wears the pants in the relationship and disintigrates the epic level fighter.

The feat grants "loyal companions and devoted followers", why wouldn't the cohort wizard be glad to assist?

Eloel
2010-01-07, 02:24 PM
Think about this. Take two PCs, a level 1 fighter and a level 1 wizard that set off adventuring on their own. Theoretically the fighter can level up faster because he can keep killing things. Once he can buy a ring of sustenance he only needs to sleep two hours a day. Meanwhile the wizard always needs at least a 9 hour break to prepare spells, plus trips back to town to replenish his spell component pouch.

Sure by higher levels the wizard is more powerful, but the fighter has a higher level. And that's when he takes Leadership and gets himself an npc wizard cohort that's a higher level than the PC wizard. By the time the wizard reaches level 20 the fighter is epic level and has an epic level wizard as a class feature.

For a same-level cohort, Fighter needs to have 4 levels above Wizard. At around 10th level for Wizard (13-ish for Fighter, by best estimates), Wizard will have the power to crush armies on his own, for astounding XP. Fighter? He'll still swing his sword, only more accurately.

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 02:25 PM
The feat grants "loyal companions and devoted followers", why wouldn't the cohort wizard be glad to assist?

My point is a level 1 fighter is more "powerful" than a level 1 wizard. This is a matter of how hp and fighting encounters work. Once you hit the sweet spot (usually level 6) the division in power is ultimately clear. I guarantee you the fighter's epic level cohort wizard is carrying more weight than his retainer.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-07, 02:27 PM
Eh...only for the first 5 levels or so.

After that the Wizard is ending high CR encounters by targeting weak saves, advancing through the XP chart rapidly.

The Wizard has more social skills, allowing him to gain experience through social encounters as well as combat encounters.

The Wizard ends most encounters within 1-3 rounds, burning less of his daily allotment of power in the process.

The Fighter is limited by a human healing rate...the Wizard can just buff himself to be immune, or planeshift to the positive energy plane for a little while.

The Fighter is limited by time constraints: a high level Wizard can shatter those, planeshift to a null-time plane, and Celerity/Timestop/Delayed Blast Fireball several encounters worth of enemies within a few seconds, then regain all his spells instantly before returning to the normal time stream...

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-07, 02:28 PM
My point is a level 1 fighter is more "powerful" than a level 1 wizard. This is a matter of how hp and fighting encounters work. Once you hit the sweet spot (usually level 6) the division in power is ultimately clear. I guarantee you the fighter's epic level cohort wizard is carrying more weight than his retainer.

At 1st level, the Wizard is casting Color Spray, Sleep, and possibly Pyrotechnics (requires a feat). He's got a 50% chance of ending the encounter every round. The Fighter, meanwhile, is only capable of attacking a single target/round (possibly more, but that requires AoOs and feats). A 1st level Fighter needs 2-3 rounds to take out an equal level encounter (assuming singular enemies, groups take much longer).

Fawsto
2010-01-07, 02:29 PM
{Scrubbed}

My only coment is the following: The only thing that keeps a adventurer going on is the ammount of resources he can spend. The fighter's resources are his HPs and other the uses of his magical items. Rougthly a Spellcaster's resources are simply better due to versatility.

The versatility provided by spells allow Casters to fight and conquer any battlefield, allowing them to actually deafeat foes that would simply outmatch a melee type (aka fighter).

Lysander
2010-01-07, 02:31 PM
My point is a level 1 fighter is more "powerful" than a level 1 wizard. This is a matter of how hp and fighting encounters work. Once you hit the sweet spot (usually level 6) the division in power is ultimately clear. I guarantee you the fighter's epic level cohort wizard is carrying more weight than his retainer.

Oh absolutely. But it's still something the fighter has power over, simply because of RAW. Aladdin commands the genie, thus has the genie's power indirectly.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-07, 02:32 PM
Oh absolutely. But it's still something the fighter has power over, simply because of RAW. Aladdin commands the genie, thus has the genie's power indirectly.

Alright. But, again...soon enough the Wizard hits level 6, and grabs another Wizard or...god forbid...a Cleric as a cohort. Same deal, only more powerful.

Mind addressing the counter-arguments raised to yours?

Sir Giacomo
2010-01-07, 02:38 PM
It is true that adventuring parties are more often constrained by casters needing to rest than by non-casters needing to rest.

So Lysander makes quite a good point here. It is quesionable though whether this makes the fighter more powerful than a wizard.

- Giacomo

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-07, 02:40 PM
It is true that adventuring parties are more often constrained by casters needing to rest than by non-casters needing to rest.

Oh, by all means agreed. That said, there's a definite point where this turns the other way and, without ready access to healing magics, the Fighter is more limited by repeated encounter than the Wizard.

Kylarra
2010-01-07, 02:48 PM
It is true that adventuring parties are more often constrained by casters needing to rest than by non-casters needing to rest.

So Lysander makes quite a good point here. It is quesionable though whether this makes the fighter more powerful than a wizard.

- GiacomoOn the other hand, that's because recovering HP is often delegated to the land of cheap replaceable wands, irony I know, whereas spell slots spent aren't so easily regained.

Samb
2010-01-07, 02:53 PM
And his epic level wizard cohort realizes he wears the pants in the relationship and disintigrates the epic level fighter.

Fighter would make the save.....

Kylarra
2010-01-07, 02:54 PM
Fighter would make the save.....That's why you use mindrape instead.

Pluto
2010-01-07, 02:58 PM
In my experience:

Low level melee characters are usually the ones driving the party to rest.
They're the ones who need spells to keep doing what they do.
Low level Wizards shoot crossbows just about as well as low level Fighters and Rogues.


And Wizards also have spells.

chiasaur11
2010-01-07, 03:08 PM
To paraphrase one of the great leaders of recent times:

Fighters are superior in only one respect.

They are better at dying.

Optimystik
2010-01-07, 03:09 PM
To quote Roy from DCF: "Standing in Front of Other People 101"

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 03:11 PM
At 1st level, the Wizard is casting Color Spray, Sleep, and possibly Pyrotechnics (requires a feat). He's got a 50% chance of ending the encounter every round. The Fighter, meanwhile, is only capable of attacking a single target/round (possibly more, but that requires AoOs and feats). A 1st level Fighter needs 2-3 rounds to take out an equal level encounter (assuming singular enemies, groups take much longer).

He's still limited by the number of times he can cast those.

It's dumb to try and compare the classes to each other because there are too many mitigating factors. The only thing that matters is that the wizard has all the time his natural lifespan allows him and even that can be circumvented. The fighter still has to rely on magic regardless.

Sliver
2010-01-07, 03:20 PM
A level 1 wizard will defeat 3-4 encounters without getting into real danger (even not assuming single opponents, as color spray could take care of most challenges, as they will be of low CR (1/4-1/2)) and recover after a single day's rest.

A fighter that decides to rest after defeating just as much encounters will be at low HP and will need to rest for almost a week, unless he decides to spend his wealth to do the same thing the wizard doesn't need to pay to do - recover quickly. Even with the poor recovery rate of 1-hp per day (2, if rests for the entire day, a thing that 1st level wizard won't need to do) he still has more trouble with multiple foe encounters as he can't attack more then one foe, unlike the wizard.

That is assuming they are both fighting the average party level = CR, so the wealth they are gaining isn't enough to ensure that the fighter can constantly recover his HP quickly. Assuming 3-4 encounters per day, a wizard can level after 3-4 days, while the fighter will spend quite a lot in bed.

Who levels up faster at low levels then?

JaronK
2010-01-07, 03:25 PM
Casters need to rest and non casters don't because the casters are healing the non casters. If the Fighter is running off on his own, then especially at low levels he'll take some damage and then need to rest for days until he's ready to go again. Imagine your little lone Fighter 1 vs an Orc Warrior 1. This is a reasonable challenge. But the Orc gets off a good solid hit and does 10 damage to our Fighter (who, let's say, had a con of 14 and is now at 2hp). The Fighter takes the Orc out, but now must rest for 10 days (5 if he can find a healer to take care of him).

The Wizard meanwhile is walking around color spraying entire encounters and then finishing them by Coup De Grasing with a Scythe (proficiency not needed for Coup de Gras). He can take out MUCH higher level threats (four Orc Warriors is pretty high CR for a first level wizard). Even doing just two encounters per day he's going to be fine.

It only gets nastier from there.

JaronK

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-07, 03:29 PM
He's still limited by the number of times he can cast those.

I can easily get 4 castings/day out of a 1st level Wizard. Focused Specialist+Int 18 gets me that much. Precocious Apprentice gets me 2nd level spells to boot.

lesser_minion
2010-01-07, 03:30 PM
Meh... Incantatrix gives you near infinite metamagic on every spell you bother to cast in a day. That's about six.


The cohort would never consider himself to be contributing more than his master, though.

Cohorts don't have much tactical input - they just do what they're told. All of an NPC wizard cohort's effectiveness comes from their leader. Without a leader, an NPC cohort wizard is a commoner with a fireball.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-07, 03:38 PM
And this is why you always ban leadership. Because it's ridiculous no matter how you look at it.

No, that's why you look closely at how the PC intends to use it. Used primarily as a story device, I've never had problems with it.

Still, it's a tricky customer. I'll definitely grant you that. :smallbiggrin:

lesser_minion
2010-01-07, 03:41 PM
And this is why you always ban leadership. Because it's ridiculous no matter how you look at it.

Djinn's right. There are some legitimate uses of leadership.

Flight can be an OK one, although I know most optimisers seem not to like that method. Or, more accurately, I've never seen an optimiser use it that way.

Sliver
2010-01-07, 03:48 PM
The Fighter takes the Orc out, but now must rest for 10 days (5 if he can find a healer to take care of him).

To be fair, it is 5 days of complete bed rest without a healer (heals double HD). about 3 with a healer taking care of him.


four Orc Warriors is pretty high CR for a first level wizard

Indeed.. It is an overpowering (more then a CR+4 encounter. A CR1 encounter counts as one you should have 50% of losing). And it should give the wizard 600xp. Sure, it is not a guaranteed win, but it isn't supposed to be winnable at all, and for the fighter, it sure isn't. If he survives, it is because he got darn lucky.


Cohorts don't have much tactical input - they just do what they're told. All of an NPC wizard cohort's effectiveness comes from their leader. Without a leader, an NPC cohort wizard is a commoner with a fireball.

And a fighter without a wizard is a commoner with a sword. You don't see a wizard at level 6 hiring a dude with a sword, do you?

Even the familiar isn't considered a total slave. A wizard cohort will high INT, especially if the fighter takes him to epic, and will consider the fact that he is stronger then his supposed leader. The fact that with the fighter he is a wizard with fireball means he is better without the fighter that makes him prepare fireball.. "Prepare that spell that you can only use if you win initiative and I don't charge in before you get to cast it off." Soon enough, he will cast that spell even if the fighter does charge in, just to catch him in the blast.

Sillycomic
2010-01-07, 03:48 PM
I like how one of the reasons you give for a fighter being more "powerful" than a wizard is the Leadership feat.

So... at some point during the game, this POWERFUL fighter will get a WIZARD friend to help him out during battle.

Hmmm, and you didn't even assume the wizard would do the same? I guess not, if a wizard were of enough levels to actually take the Leadership feat, he wouldn't even need it anymore

Radiun
2010-01-07, 03:50 PM
Think about this. Take two PCs, a level 1 fighter and a level 1 wizard that set off adventuring on their own. Theoretically the fighter can level up faster because he can keep killing things. Once he can buy a ring of sustenance he only needs to sleep two hours a day. Meanwhile the wizard always needs at least a 9 hour break to prepare spells, plus trips back to town to replenish his spell component pouch.

Sure by higher levels the wizard is more powerful, but the fighter has a higher level. And that's when he takes Leadership and gets himself an npc wizard cohort that's a higher level than the PC wizard. By the time the wizard reaches level 20 the fighter is epic level and has an epic level wizard as a class feature.

By this train of thought, isn't the Warlock the most powerful class?
By level 6 he can hover above targets and take easy shots at them (possibly from as far as 250ft), and should they lock themselves in their house, he can shatter anything he pleases.

Thus the Warlock, who we could presume keeps a somewhat similar pace to this fighter, except when he starts flying above high CR creatures which lack flight, at which point he sky rockets to the lead, is the most powerful class?

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 03:51 PM
I can easily get 4 castings/day out of a 1st level Wizard. Focused Specialist+Int 18 gets me that much. Precocious Apprentice gets me 2nd level spells to boot.

You're assuming an optimum layout with material beyond what the class was originally designed for. I'm sure the fighter could pick up some feats and strength 18 to increase his versatility as well.

Using elite array and core mechanics a wizard falters before a focused fighter but after level 5 he has enough resources to do what he pleases.

Bibliomancer
2010-01-07, 03:51 PM
It's dumb to try and compare the classes to each other because there are too many mitigating factors.

Why, then, did you attempt to do so?

However, as stated previously, wizards have more versatility, and even at low levels can level up faster than an individual fighter, since a fighter must spend days recovering hit points after a challenging battle.

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 03:55 PM
Why, then, did you attempt to do so?

However, as stated previously, wizards have more versatility, and even at low levels can level up faster than an individual fighter, since a fighter must spend days recovering hit points after a challenging battle.

Because D&D, before 4th edition, wasn't designed with balance in mind between classes. This should be apparent with casters vs. non-casters. If you stick a level 1 fighter adjacent to a level 1 wizard and the fighter wins initiative I guarantee he'll likely win that fight.

But what happens when you stick the fighter 40 feet away or the wizard wins the initiative? What if the wizard has mage armor going from before their fight? What happens when you have a level 5 wizard vs. level 5 fighter? A level 13 wizard vs. level 20 fighter? We all know the answer to that last one.

People need to stop trying to find a balance between the classes because it doesn't exist. The tier breakdown arose for this very reason.

Bibliomancer
2010-01-07, 04:01 PM
You're assuming an optimum layout which goes against good play testing. Using elite array and core mechanics a wizard falters before a focused fighter but after level 5 he has enough resources to do what he pleases.

A specialist wizard in core (Int 17, gray elf) can still cast 3 first level spells (one from levels, one from specialist, and one from having an Intelligence score above 12) per day, plus three cantrips. Color spray, readied, is more than enough to disable 2 first level orc warriors, thus winning an EL1 (if you follow with a coup de grace). This can be done three times per day (assuming optimal circumstances, which your assessment of wizard seems to do), so a wizard will reach level two before a fighter. Also, a wizard can buy one or two scrolls (25 gp, starting wealth around 100 gp) as insurance for the above set-up, thus almost guaranteeing that the wizard will survive to second level. Note that with Dex 16 (elf, 14 +2), a wizard will often be able to sneak up on orcs (Listen +1).

Even assuming that your assessment of the speeds of leveling is valid, a fighter alone won't survive long enough to take a cohort. By 5th level, a fighter will be overwhelmed by ogres or other melee focused opponents in one on one combat, and he will die automatically if faced with a flying opponent possessing a long range ranged weapon.


Because D&D, before 4th edition, wasn't designed with balance in mind between classes. This should be apparent with casters vs. non-casters. If you stick a level 1 fighter adjacent to a level 1 wizard and the fighter wins initiative I guarantee he'll likely win that fight.

But what happens when you stick the fighter 40 feet away or the wizard wins the initiative? What if the wizard has mage armor going from before their fight? What happens when you have a level 5 wizard vs. level 5 fighter? A level 13 wizard vs. level 20 fighter? We all know the answer to that last one.

People need to stop trying to find a balance between the classes because it doesn't exist. The tier breakdown arose for this very reason.

You're changing your argument. Are you attempting to defend the title or simply prove that the class system in 3.5 is broken?

I accept that casters are more powerful than fighters, but in most games, it doesn't matter, because the casters collaborate with the rest of the party, or the players are not experienced enough to play a caster efficiently. A normal wizard in core whose main tactic is fireball is not significantly more powerful than the fighter, and so the system functions.

Gnaeus
2010-01-07, 04:09 PM
By this train of thought, isn't the Warlock the most powerful class?
By level 6 he can hover above targets and take easy shots at them (possibly from as far as 250ft), and should they lock themselves in their house, he can shatter anything he pleases.

Thus the Warlock, who we could presume keeps a somewhat similar pace to this fighter, except when he starts flying above high CR creatures which lack flight, at which point he sky rockets to the lead, is the most powerful class?

No. The Druid wins this race. By level 4 he mounts his Dire Bat and kills any non-flying, non-ranged enemy with his sling. If they go into a house, he sets it on fire with produce flame, or sends summoned monsters after them. By level 6 the druid, like the Warlock, can fly all day on his own (12 hours = all adventuring day), has a pet to melee things which is as good as a not-very well built fighter, and a huge tier 1 range of spell options, while at level 6 the warlock can pretty much just fly, blast and shatter.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-07, 04:10 PM
I like how one of the reasons you give for a fighter being more "powerful" than a wizard is the Leadership feat.

So... at some point during the game, this POWERFUL fighter will get a WIZARD friend to help him out during battle.

Hmmm, and you didn't even assume the wizard would do the same? I guess not, if a wizard were of enough levels to actually take the Leadership feat, he wouldn't even need it anymore

But then it isn't the Fighter being useful, it's his little wizard buddy.

Arundel
2010-01-07, 04:19 PM
How is it that these threads still exist? You don't even need a proper argument to win this thread.

A wizard can reshape reality as a class ability (Wish).

I know I'm generalizing, but compared to that what else matters?

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 04:22 PM
You're changing your argument. Are you attempting to defend the title or simply prove that the class system in 3.5 is broken?

I accept that casters are more powerful than fighters, but in most games, it doesn't matter, because the casters collaborate with the rest of the party, or the players are not experienced enough to play a caster efficiently. A normal wizard in core whose main tactic is fireball is not significantly more powerful than the fighter, and so the system functions.

I'm not defending the OP's point, I'm saying these topics are dumb because there's no deciding factor on the strength between class vs. environment.

We've had battles between class vs. class and it's easy to determine the victor of those. You can't make the same base assumption that either character will even survive to whatever level you expect them to in the case of DM vs. Player. If your first level gray elf wizard activated a portcullis trap (also CR1), he'd die. A first level fighter likely wouldn't.

Level, items, and feat layout are massive determining factors in survivability. I don't care how many castings of color spray you have because you're assuming you'll only be fighting monsters. A fighter first has to make it to level 5 to get leadership but a wizard must do the same. You can't create some magical percentage to determine whether either of them will make it.

Doc Roc
2010-01-07, 04:31 PM
I would argue that class strength does matter at least a bit more than you suggest.

The breadth of the difference between fighter and wizard is wide enough that it becomes what you could comfortably refer to as a "survivability gap." Wizards are just much better defensively than a fighter can reasonably hope to be, and can resolve non-combat situations with considerably more aplomb. Leadership doesn't change this. It's just one more feat that anyone can take that causes problems for everyone.

:(

Lysander
2010-01-07, 04:31 PM
That's true. My point isn't so much that any one class is necessarily better than another, but the fact than leadership can negate or complicate a lot of "who's better than who" arguments.

Doc Roc
2010-01-07, 04:32 PM
Does it? It's a factor uniformly available to all concerned parties. I would suggest that this renders it basically null.

However, there's a much wider power gap between a wizard two levels lower than you, and a fighter two levels lower than you. So your mileage may vary.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-01-07, 04:35 PM
That's true. My point isn't so much that any one class is necessarily better than another, but the fact than leadership can negate or complicate a lot of "who's better than who" arguments.

Then your thread title and initial post are, in fact, completely contrary to your argument. As you just stated, it seems that your argument is now that a Wizard of X level is weaker than a Fighter of X+Y level plus a Wizard of X+Y-2 level.

Which is sort of obvious, isn't it?

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-01-07, 04:37 PM
Lv 1 Fighter is more powerful than Lv 1 Wizard.
Duh.
Lv 5 fighter < Lv 5 Wizard.
Lv 10 Fighter < Lv 5 Wizard.

Your theory falls apart after the wizard gains a level or two.
While it is true a lv 1 fighter beats a lv 1 wizard, so do most things with more than 6 HP.
Wizard is more powerful than fighter, I'm sure this was done on purpose.

JaronK
2010-01-07, 04:37 PM
Because D&D, before 4th edition, wasn't designed with balance in mind between classes. This should be apparent with casters vs. non-casters. If you stick a level 1 fighter adjacent to a level 1 wizard and the fighter wins initiative I guarantee he'll likely win that fight.

Actually it was, they just did it wrong. Designers and playtesters thought too much alike and only balanced certain things (blaster Wizards with healbot Clerics and sword wielding Fighters), all of which fell apart when people started playing who tried other things. But the rest of your points still stand. Just saying... they tried. Balance was in mind. Those minds just needed work...

JaronK

JaronK
2010-01-07, 04:39 PM
Lv 1 Fighter is more powerful than Lv 1 Wizard.
Duh....[clip]

While it is true a lv 1 fighter beats a lv 1 wizard, so do most things with more than 6 HP.
Wizard <I>is</I> more powerful than fighter, I'm sure this was done on purpose.

You haven't been introduced to the joys of Colorspray, have you?

JaronK

Hyfigh
2010-01-07, 04:39 PM
Did anyone else notice that the OP was saying basically "my Fighter can beat your Wizard because he can have a Wizard friend"?

You realize the Wizard could use Leadership to have a Wizard cohort too, right?

Wizard + Wizard = pwnt Wizard + Fighter

Signmaker
2010-01-07, 04:41 PM
Fighters are stepping stones for casters, nothing more. The role of the beatstick type is to shield his allies from harm whilst their weak bodies begin to hone mystical energies of asswhoop. Then they trade active/support roles, and all are happy.

So yes, the fighter will outpace the wizard at lower levers. That is why the fighter is linear, and the wizard quadratic. Because the wizard eventually gains access to AoEs, and therefore does more with his actions.

That being said, I highly doubt that either of the two would survive going at it solo. There's just far too many monsters that are ill-suited to mash up against both classes, and they're going to get ganked. Unless you're a paranoid wizard with sufficient spell slots, but those are hard to come by without the aforementioned cultivation process.

JaronK
2010-01-07, 04:42 PM
Actually, his point was a little better than that. He was saying "my Fighter could level up faster than your Wizard and then get a Wizard friend who was higher level than your Wizard, therefor he's stronger." The second part was correct... a higher level Wizard is stronger than a lower level one, plus the higher level Wizard has a Fighter carry his flag for him (you haven't really made it until you have a flag bearer, it's a thing).

The problem is the assumption that Fighters can level up faster on their own, which forgets the problem of running out of HP.

Crusaders could do this much better. So could Dread Necromancers, who are AWESOME for low level durability. DR 2 by level 2 and infinate healing by level 1? Rock on.

JaronK

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 04:43 PM
Actually it was, they just did it wrong. Designers and playtesters thought too much alike and only balanced certain things (blaster Wizards with healbot Clerics and sword wielding Fighters), all of which fell apart when people started playing who tried other things. But the rest of your points still stand. Just saying... they tried. Balance was in mind. Those minds just needed work...

JaronK

I have a hard time believing anyone cared about balance when a ranger started with 2HD or paladins could only own 10 magic items and had to donate everything.

Maybe the 80s definition of balance is different from the aughts but I just can't wrap my mind around pre-RPGA D&D caring a lick about balance between classes. You were expected to have a balanced party to cover all ground but trying to find common ground between a fighter and a cleric is dumb because one is more versatile than the other.

lesser_minion
2010-01-07, 04:55 PM
Indeed.. It is an overpowering (more then a CR+4 encounter. A CR1 encounter counts as one you should have 50% of losing). And it should give the wizard 600xp. Sure, it is not a guaranteed win, but it isn't supposed to be winnable at all, and for the fighter, it sure isn't. If he survives, it is because he got darn lucky.

EL3, actually, IIRC.

The four encounters per day thing, bizarrely, makes little sense unless CR 1 is the equivalent of 2.27 level 1 PCs (not 1, as they claim).

If you have four guys fighting one guy, and each of these guys is identical in every respect, then the four guys will expend about 6% of their resources fighting.


And a fighter without a wizard is a commoner with a sword. You don't see a wizard at level 6 hiring a dude with a sword, do you?

Not so. And the level 6 wizard might be tempted to hire a dude with a sword, because while he might be able to incapacitate 12 orcs, he can't exactly scythe them all in six rounds on his own.


Even the familiar isn't considered a total slave. A wizard cohort will high INT, especially if the fighter takes him to epic, and will consider the fact that he is stronger then his supposed leader. The fact that with the fighter he is a wizard with fireball means he is better without the fighter that makes him prepare fireball.. "Prepare that spell that you can only use if you win initiative and I don't charge in before you get to cast it off." Soon enough, he will cast that spell even if the fighter does charge in, just to catch him in the blast.

What? No. The fighter tells him how to be effective. If he's well-treated, and friendly with the fighter (both implicit), then even if he does think he's stronger, he won't take action.

Int doesn't let you make split-second combat decisions. It makes you good at planning, reasoning, and casting spells.

If he was good at split-second tactical decisions, he would have assumed a leading role, and he'd be a generic ally, not a cohort.



I have a hard time believing anyone cared about balance when a ranger started with 2HD or paladins could only own 10 magic items and had to donate everything.

Maybe the 80s definition of balance is different from the aughts but I just can't wrap my mind around pre-RPGA D&D caring a lick about balance between classes. You were expected to have a balanced party to cover all ground but trying to find common ground between a fighter and a cleric is dumb because one is more versatile than the other.

Which one? The cleric has more written on the page, sure, but the fighter will be a lot better at improvising than the cleric. I'm pretty sure 1e encouraged a lot less thinking inside the box than 3e did.

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-07, 04:59 PM
Who said 1st level fighters are more powerful than 1st level wizards?

Color spray cast by a 16 INT wizard is if I recall correctly, DC 10+1+3=14.

A fighter's will save could be as high as 4, (If he had an 18 in Wis for some reason) or as low as -2 (if he used wisdom as a dump stat). So your odds of being KO'd the first round the wizard gets to act are anywhere from 50% to 80%

An Azer (cr 2) has a will save of 4, A bison (CR 2) has a will save of 1, a Giant Bee (cr 1) has a will save of 2, A Locathah (cr .5) has a will save of 1...

In short, a 1st level encounter is quite likely to end on the first round the wizard gets to act.

A giant Crocodile (CR 4) has a Will save of a measily +3. Admittedly, he has too many HD to effectively glitterscythe, but a wizard could still Blind and then crossbow him to death without much worry.

JaronK
2010-01-07, 05:01 PM
I have a hard time believing anyone cared about balance when a ranger started with 2HD or paladins could only own 10 magic items and had to donate everything.

Oh, I thought you meant 3.5. Nevermind.

JaronK

Lysander
2010-01-07, 05:01 PM
One way the fighter could replenish hp is to hire a cohort cleric at level 6, then swap them out for a wizard at higher levels after he can afford to buy healing items.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-01-07, 05:03 PM
In short, a 1st level encounter is quite likely to end on the first round the wizard gets to act.


A first level encounter ends on the first round no matter who acts. A human fighter will have what, three feats? Weapons focus, weapons spec, and improved init.
Fighter now has a better chance at going first, and with his great sword is dealing around 8, instead of 6.5. I doubt the wizard had the luxury of a 20 CON.
The point is, arguing who goes first wins, is pointless. Because whoever goes first...WINS!

Signmaker
2010-01-07, 05:04 PM
One way the fighter could replenish hp is to hire a cohort cleric at level 6, then swap them out for a wizard at higher levels after he can afford to buy healing items.

This assumes that the fighter survives till 6th level. Which is quite unlikely if he is, say, ambushed in his sleep. The same can apply to the solo wizard, except the wizard might be lucky enough to have a ring of sustenance and rope trick, so that he can at least rest for two hours and lie awake for 6 praying that he doesn't have to fight until his slots replenish. So for both sides, your argument is more or less a neutral "what if"


A first level encounter ends on the first round no matter who acts. A human fighter will have what, three feats? Weapons focus, weapons spec, and improved init.
Fighter now has a better chance at going first, and with his great sword is dealing around 8, instead of 6.5. I doubt the wizard had the luxury of a 20 CON.
The point is, arguing who goes first wins, is pointless. Because whoever goes first...WINS!

Nnnot quite. Low-level has the attribute that people screw up. Often enough to warrant probabilities important.

JaronK
2010-01-07, 05:06 PM
One way the fighter could replenish hp is to hire a cohort cleric at level 6, then swap them out for a wizard at higher levels after he can afford to buy healing items.

Too late. The whole claim here was that Fighters could level faster than Wizards in the very low levels, thus outpacing them before Wizards got the super abilities. If the Fighter has to wait until level 6 just to be able to not spend days between encounters, then by that time the Wizard is probably into double digit levels and has an Archivist cohort, an army of undead healed by Necrosis Carnexes all of which bathes in Minor Creation made Black Lotus poison each day, a castle built of Walls of Stone and Fabricates, and endless wishes from Planar Bound Efreetis.

At which point the Fighter may level up above him, since the Wizard has probably retired into his awesome castle furnished with endless wishes and full of nymph babes anyway (hey, he's got to keep his Fey Mysteries Initiate HP up somehow, right?) and is no longer gaining exp.

JaronK

Vaynor
2010-01-07, 05:08 PM
I think that this is kind of a moot point. It's been well established that fighter-types are more powerful than casters at low levels. Once casters get to pretty much anything over level 5-6, they start winning. And past that it's not even a challenge.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-01-07, 05:12 PM
Nnnot quite. Low-level has the attribute that people screw up. Often enough to warrant probabilities important.

Yes but in hypothetcial talk like this, probabilities and low stats are too big of a variable to draw an answer. It becomes a, "Well in that case" discussion with no end.
Let's assume they each have three good stats, a 17, a 15, and a 14. Then they have three crap stats, a 10, an 11, and an 8. (This would be after any and all racial modifiers are applied. Not before. For the sake of balance the good stats are achieved through high rolls, or racical modifiers. Both cannot be applied here.)
Who wins here? Now the question is altered, because now you can minmax for the sole purpose of the fight and it becomes harder. Or, you can say it's just two random PCs, and the answer goes back to whom ever rolls better.

JaronK
2010-01-07, 05:13 PM
I think that this is kind of a moot point. It's been well established that fighter-types are more powerful than casters at low levels. Once casters get to pretty much anything over level 5-6, they start winning. And past that it's not even a challenge.

No it hasn't.

There is pretty much nothing Fighters have at level 1 that competes with Colorspray (and Nerveskitter if you're willing to throw more spells into the encounter). Then we can start talking about Magecraft fun...

Colorspray = encounter over.

JaronK

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-01-07, 05:15 PM
No it hasn't.

There is pretty much nothing Fighters have at level 1 that competes with Colorspray (and Nerveskitter if you're willing to throw more spells into the encounter). Then we can start talking about Magecraft fun...

Colorspray = encounter over.

JaronK

Bow equals, "Where is fighter? Oh look, I have an arrow sticking out of my chest." Encounter over. Too many variables.

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 05:17 PM
Oh, I thought you meant 3.5. Nevermind.

JaronK

It applies to 3.5 as well. Whose bright idea was it to allow druids to have a CR 1 companion at level one?

Edit: The design process that went into the druid in general is baffling to me. By RAW, a druid can make infinite money by spending 24 hours to get a domesticated animal like a horse, selling it (releasing it from service), and then spending 24 hours to get a new one for free.

One could argue "If the DM allows that he's dumb" but that still doesn't change the fact that the rules for it are stupid.

lesser_minion
2010-01-07, 05:18 PM
Too late. The whole claim here was that Fighters could level faster than Wizards in the very low levels, thus outpacing them before Wizards got the super abilities. If the Fighter has to wait until level 6 just to be able to not spend days between encounters, then by that time the Wizard is probably into double digit levels and has an Archivist cohort, an army of undead healed by Necrosis Carnexes all of which bathes in Minor Creation made Black Lotus poison each day, a castle built of Walls of Stone and Fabricates, and endless wishes from Planar Bound Efreetis.

At which point the Fighter may level up above him, since the Wizard has probably retired into his awesome castle furnished with endless wishes and full of nymph babes anyway (hey, he's got to keep his Fey Mysteries Initiate HP up somehow, right?) and is no longer gaining exp.

JaronK

I'm not sure. A 1- or 2- level Paladin dip guarantees that the fighter is free of healing issues by 2nd level.

The only issue is that you aren't strictly a fighter then.

You don't even need that - you can afford to roll a UMD check more than once. On average, you'll get a few uses out of a wand before it temporarily becomes unusable.

The fighter can also do a little bit more than hit things with a stick. There aren't actually that many good low-level spells with a 110ft range.

JaronK
2010-01-07, 05:18 PM
Bow equals, "Where is fighter? Oh look, I have an arrow sticking out of my chest." Encounter over. Too many variables.

Wait, since when have Fighters had Spot and Hide on their list? I mean, I agree that for soloing archery's a good idea, but Fighters have a lot of trouble actually seeing enemies. That whole -1 to spot checks penalty for every 10 feet means enemies tend to see them first, which makes ranged combat a lot more difficult.

JaronK

JaronK
2010-01-07, 05:20 PM
I'm not sure. A 1- or 2- level Paladin dip guarantees that the fighter is free of healing issues by 2nd level.

Wait, what? Now our "Fighter" is actually half paladin? Doesn't count at all! I already said other melees can do this better (Crusaders).


The fighter can also do a little bit more than hit things with a stick. There aren't actually that many good low-level spells with a 110ft range.

There aren't that many Fighters who can see anything with a -11 to their spot check either, so that's not terribly relevant. If we're going low level sniper combat, then it's the Rangers and Factotums who can rock it... not so much Fighters. They're good at pouring out full round archery fire, but not at actually starting encounters at long enough range to do that solo very effectively.

JaronK

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-01-07, 05:21 PM
Wait, since when have Fighters had Spot and Hide on their list? I mean, I agree that for soloing archery's a good idea, but Fighters have a lot of trouble actually seeing enemies. That whole -1 to spot checks penalty for every 10 feet means enemies tend to see them first, which makes ranged combat a lot more difficult.

JaronK

So, what you're saying is a light armored fighter (because they can't afford Plate at lvl 1) could never use the Bows extreme distance to win a fight? So, this is by RAW, or, you know, RAIWT (Rules As I Want Them)?

JaronK
2010-01-07, 05:21 PM
It applies to 3.5 as well. Whose bright idea was it to allow druids to have a CR 1 companion at level one?

The same playtesters that thought the animal companion was just for show and kept it back during combat (because they weren't supposed to get the puppy hurt). The same ones that thought Wild Shape was for pretending to be an animal, but used Weapon Focus: Scimitar to rock out in combat without using Wild Shape.

Yeah, those guys. They were trying. They just failed hard.

JaronK

JaronK
2010-01-07, 05:23 PM
So, what you're saying is a light armored fighter (because they can't afford Plate at lvl 1) could never use the Bows extreme distance to win a fight? So, this is by RAW, or, you know, RAIWT (Rules As I Want Them)?

How do you expect them to start the encounter at long range? You need a decent spot check for that.

Rules as I want them has Fighters actually being good at this sort of thing. When I've made house ruled Fighters I've ALWAYS given them spot for precisely this reason (plus the fact that they're supposed to be good guards, so they should really have it).

But by RAW, Fighters can't see enemies very well at all, making them very poor at actually starting long range encounters. They're more likely to start the encounter within charge range (or nearly so).

JaronK

Signmaker
2010-01-07, 05:24 PM
So, what you're saying is a light armored fighter (because they can't afford Plate at lvl 1) could never use the Bows extreme distance to win a fight? So, this is by RAW, or, you know, RAIWT (Rules As I Want Them)?

No, they can't. They're as blind as wizards are. Fix their spot checks to not suck at level 1, and then you'll have an argument that's valid. Otherwise, both contestants are more or less within casting range.

To see a Large object is DC0, IIRC. Therefore, it's a DC4 to spot someone not hiding (a la Random "OH****KILLIT" encounter). For your 'extreme distance' to work, you'd need something along the lines of a 15+ spot check, with a character with A. Little wis (read <13) and B. Few ranks in spot.

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 05:26 PM
The same playtesters that thought the animal companion was just for show and kept it back during combat (because they weren't supposed to get the puppy hurt). The same ones that thought Wild Shape was for pretending to be an animal, but used Weapon Focus: Scimitar to rock out in combat without using Wild Shape.

Yeah, those guys. They were trying. They just failed hard.

JaronK

When I read stuff like this it makes me think about Pathfinder's playtesting (Playtest our game like you'd play a normal RPG guys!).

I remember my first druid was a dwarf who had a camel. Then the DM introduced a druid with a wolf that killed me quick and I said "Why would anyone ever choose the other animals at level 1?"

lesser_minion
2010-01-07, 05:26 PM
There aren't that many Fighters who can see anything with a -11 to their spot check either, so that's not terribly relevant. If we're going low level sniper combat, then it's the Rangers and Factotums who can rock it... not so much Fighters. They're good at pouring out full round archery fire, but not at actually starting encounters at long enough range to do that solo very effectively.


:smallbiggrin: Very good point.

Although I'm pretty sure Hide checks autofail when you don't have cover or concealment, so the opposing check (the Spot check) must autosucceed.

Sorry, I completely forgot about encounter distance rules there. Yes, that is horrible, although I'm pretty sure the spot check autosucceeds at half the maximum encounter distance, unless that's an old rule that I haven't checked yet.

Also, I did concede that dipping Paladin doesn't really count, and pointed out that cross-classing UMD works as well.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-01-07, 05:27 PM
But by RAW, Fighters can't see enemies very well at all,


And by RAW you just mean lack of spot as a skill. Which is fixable by a feat. It's not like the Wizard can hide very well.

Let's see, Fighters need....DEX, STR, CON. Okay, spot requires WIS. Alright, so, I'm statted to be a good fighter. But, I figure I can be a better ranger AS a fighter, for some reason. So, I dump CON and rely on my HD, and instead pump WISdom, and take Skill Training Spot.
Great, problem solved, bow wins. We're not playing Hide and Seek. We're playing D&D.

Signmaker
2010-01-07, 05:29 PM
And by RAW you just mean lack of spot as a skill. Which is fixable by a feat. It's not like the Wizard can hide very well.

Let's see, Fighters need....DEX, STR, CON. Okay, spot requires WIS. Alright, so, I'm statted to be a good fighter. But, I figure I can be a better ranger AS a fighter, for some reason. So, I dump CON and rely on my HD, and instead pump WISdom, and take Skill Training Spot.
Great, problem solved, bow wins.

Not even close, as I stated above. Also, mixing up your starts to arbitrarily try and win an argument is usually indicative of something. In this case, inconsistency.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-01-07, 05:29 PM
Not even close, as I stated above.

So what you're saying, is in a flat open area, I can't see the Wizard less than a football field away? Do the math people, the fighter's not blind.

Signmaker
2010-01-07, 05:31 PM
So what you're saying, is in a flat open area, I can't see the Wizard less than a football field away?

Well, they do tend to be skinny, so I suppose they'd look like trees at first glance. :smallwink:

And that argument is countered by "Well, the wizard could see you too if it was a football field". More or less, you argument hinges on the fact that the fighter not only wins spot, but does so at a far enough distance. You have yet to show that that distance is consistently manageable.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-01-07, 05:31 PM
Well, they do tend to be skinny, so I suppose they'd look like trees at first glance. :smallwink:

And that argument is countered by "Well, the wizard could see you too if it was a football field".

Yes he could. But the question is, can the wizard hit me from that 110 (or 120) ft away?

Signmaker
2010-01-07, 05:32 PM
Yes he could. But the question is, can the wizard hit me from that 110 ft away?

CL1 Medium Range spell says...well..yes? Not all wizard spells are close-range, mind.

JaronK
2010-01-07, 05:32 PM
And by RAW you just mean lack of spot as a skill. Which is fixable by a feat. It's not like the Wizard can hide very well.

Let's see, Fighters need....DEX, STR, CON. Okay, spot requires WIS. Alright, so, I'm statted to be a good fighter. But, I figure I can be a better ranger AS a fighter, for some reason. So, I dump CON and rely on my HD, and instead pump WISdom, and take Skill Training Spot.
Great, problem solved, bow wins.

Great, now you dumped con on a soloing Fighter. This is going to go great, I can just feel it. Seriously, even if you take Skill Training (isn't that a variant rule anyway? In UA?) and get a Wis of 14, now you've got a +6 to spot. Check out the encounter distance rules and look at what kind of distances you start at. Not great... and you just dumped Con. Unwise!

Meanwhile, the Wizard isn't relying on starting at long range, so it doesn't matter as much to him. Colorspray doesn't have huge range.

JaronK

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-01-07, 05:33 PM
CL1 Medium Range spell says...well..yes? Not all wizard spells are close-range, mind.

Yes...Yes it does.
So are we honestly back to the "Whomever wins initiative" portion. Because I've already said that's the only way it works. Wiz wins if he gets init, Fighter wins if he gets init. No one has the advantage over the other in a fair fight.

JaronK
2010-01-07, 05:33 PM
Yes he could. But the question is, can the wizard hit me from that 110 (or 120) ft away?

Now you've lost track of what we're doing. The question is "who's better at low level soloing for fast exp" not "who wins in an area fight."

If we're arena fighting, I'm selling the spellbook and buying 15 Riding Dogs, and just sicking them at you while hiding behind a tower shield. Let's see you shoot those before they get to you!

JaronK

JaronK
2010-01-07, 05:34 PM
Yes...Yes it does.
So are we honestly back to the "Whomever wins initiative" portion. Because I've already said that's the only way it works. Wiz wins if he gets init, Fighter wins if he gets init. No one has the advantage over the other in a fair fight.

Is this a bad time to mention Nerveskitter?

JaronK

Signmaker
2010-01-07, 05:36 PM
Is this a bad time to mention Nerveskitter?

JaronK

Probably. But the issue isn't PVP, from what I understand. The OP was proposing more of a levelling race, if I understand correctly, with the fighter supposedly gaining enough of a gap to compete with the wizard.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-07, 05:37 PM
Think about this. Take two PCs, a level 1 fighter and a level 1 wizard that set off adventuring on their own. Theoretically the fighter can level up faster because he can keep killing things. Once he can buy a ring of sustenance he only needs to sleep two hours a day. Meanwhile the wizard always needs at least a 9 hour break to prepare spells, plus trips back to town to replenish his spell component pouch.

Sure by higher levels the wizard is more powerful, but the fighter has a higher level. And that's when he takes Leadership and gets himself an npc wizard cohort that's a higher level than the PC wizard. By the time the wizard reaches level 20 the fighter is epic level and has an epic level wizard as a class feature.

What's more powerful? A fighter with a wizard cohort or a Wizard with a wizard cohort?

I think this is pretty obvious.

At first level...yes, certain melee builds to have more stamina than wizards do. This advantage is pretty minimal, though, unless heavy optimization is applied to the fighter. IE, usually starting with making him a ToB class or some such. If you apply similar tricks to the wizard(reserve feat, for example), this advantage is neutralized. Hp are still a limited resource, remember.

As you get higher, wizards are able to take on an increasingly high number of encounters per day. IE...as many as they have spells for, so...a ridiculous amount. Unless the fighter keeps spending all his WBL on potions of clw, he has no such advantage.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-01-07, 05:37 PM
Now you've lost track of what we're doing. The question is "who's better at low level soloing for fast exp" not "who wins in an area fight."

If we're arena fighting, I'm selling the spellbook and buying 15 Riding Dogs, and just sicking them at you while hiding behind a tower shield. Let's see you shoot those before they get to you!

JaronK

That last one is completely beyond the point because it's not ameasure of the wizards power, considering you can't sell a spellbook you don't have (IE: having paid for it and the spells which make it worth money).

The question was whom was better at gaining exp. And it was a question of fighter versus wizard, which somehow became a question of who wins.
Honestly, at level one, they all gain EXP just as well as the other.

JaronK
2010-01-07, 05:37 PM
Probably. But the issue isn't PVP, from what I understand. The OP was proposing more of a levelling race, if I understand correctly, with the fighter supposedly gaining enough of a gap to compete with the wizard.

Yeah, but then people started trying arena PvP nonsense. At which point the Wizard goes with dogs and crushes all.

JaronK

Yakk
2010-01-07, 05:45 PM
Indeed.. It is an overpowering (more then a CR+4 encounter. A CR1 encounter counts as one you should have 50% of losing). And it should give the wizard 600xp. Sure, it is not a guaranteed win, but it isn't supposed to be winnable at all, and for the fighter, it sure isn't. If he survives, it is because he got darn lucky.
Level 1 fighter. 18 strength (+4)/16 dex(+3), spiked chain, combat reflexes (and

Fighter has 19 AC. Orcs have an AC of 13 and a +4 to hit and 5 HP.

+5 to hit against AC 13 is a 8+, or a 65% chance of killing each orc as it approaches the warrior.

The first hit has a 50% chance of killing the fighter (roughly), the second will kill the fighter.

Orcs hit AC 19 on a 14+ on a charge, so 30% chance per orc.

Turn 0: Fighter isn't surprised, but cannot attack orcs.
Turn 1: Orcs charge. 1.4 orcs left, fighter is hit an average of 0.42 times.
Turn 2: Fighter withdraws. Orcs charge again. 0.5 orcs left. Fighter is hit an average of 0.62 times total.
Turn 3: Fighter beats on orc. 0.18 orcs left. Fighter is hit an average of 0.66 times total.
Turn 4: Fighter beats on orc. 0.063 orcs left. Fighter is hit an average of 0.68 times total.
Turn 5: Fighter beats on orc. 0.022 orcs left. Fighter is hit an average of 0.69 times total.

In short, a fighter who isn't surprised has a quite decent chance against 4 orc warriors at once. Probably a better than even chance of never being hit once from them.

The wizard who lets the orcs attack first is doing more than a bit worse. With 13 AC, the orcs hit on a 8+ on a charge. One hit will kill the wizard. So if 4 orcs manage to charge the wizard before the wizard attacks, the wizard has a 1.5% chance of surviving.

Of course, I did have the fighter earn enough to afford full plate (practically a +1 item) -- the real fighter's AC after an encounter or two would be around 18 (breastplate) or 17 (scale).

By turn 4, 2.14 orcs have had a chance to attack the fighter. So at 17 AC, that works out to an average of 0.856 hits on the fighter (with 1 hit having a 50% chance of killing the fighter, and 2 hits having a 100% chance of killing the fighter).

However, I fully expect a level 1 spiked chain fighter (with 18 str/16 dex -- hence, + attribute modifiers) to have a greater than 50% chance of beating 4 orc warriors, assuming the orc warriors don't manage to surround the fighter and/or use ranged weapons.

Remember, cheese is strong stuff.

Signmaker
2010-01-07, 05:50 PM
However, I fully expect a level 1 spiked chain fighter (with 18 str/16 dex -- hence, + attribute modifiers) to have a greater than 50% chance of beating 4 orc warriors, assuming the orc warriors don't manage to surround the fighter and/or use ranged weapons.

Big if. Which is why my belief is that neither player survives a solo campaign fighting traditionally. They have to be very sneaky for the first few levels, or they're more or less in trouble (dead).

Tyndmyr
2010-01-07, 05:50 PM
You're assuming an optimum layout with material beyond what the class was originally designed for. I'm sure the fighter could pick up some feats and strength 18 to increase his versatility as well.

Using elite array and core mechanics a wizard falters before a focused fighter but after level 5 he has enough resources to do what he pleases.

Oh what, we're using core now, and elite array? Not specified originally, but this pretty much rules out any chance of the fighter winning.

Sure, core wizards at level 1 are relatively weak. Especially if you insist on elite array. Still, they've got a minimum of two level 1 spells per day, plus cantrips and a crossbow. That's enough to do 1-2 appropriate ECLed encounters. So, in two days, they're level two. Yay, problem solved, they now have spells. In another day or two, they reach level three, and start leveling at a rate of once/day. It's not going to take long for them to utterly surpass the fighters initial, minor lead.

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 05:51 PM
We're still assuming the players will always be pit against monsters. Traps are encounters as well and neither wizard nor fighter are equipped to handle them at early levels. Falling rocks is a CR 1 trap and it's literally "Rocks fall, you die."

Doc Roc
2010-01-07, 05:54 PM
JM Brown likes to......... invisibly change the topic to his preferred arena of discussion, second edition. As a result, it's hard to have a good conversation with or involving him in my limited experience, despite the fact that he often is quite eloquent and makes excellent points. The more frustrating bit is the switch back and forth. Head hurts.

In other words,
stop that, you!

Tyndmyr
2010-01-07, 05:55 PM
I'm not defending the OP's point, I'm saying these topics are dumb because there's no deciding factor on the strength between class vs. environment.

We've had battles between class vs. class and it's easy to determine the victor of those. You can't make the same base assumption that either character will even survive to whatever level you expect them to in the case of DM vs. Player. If your first level gray elf wizard activated a portcullis trap (also CR1), he'd die. A first level fighter likely wouldn't.

CR1 traps range up to 4d6 damage. That's not counting a crit. I think it's quite safe to say that a fighter OR wizard getting hit by that is quite dead.

You are welcome to test this theory out in the endless or neverending dungeons. Neither of those are limited to core only, but if you want to, you certainly can run core fighters vs core wizards and see which lasts longer. Frankly, I suspect that pure core builds will die rather rapidly in either dungeon, but hey, your proposal is testable in a standardized fashion.

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-07, 06:02 PM
If I use a bow you will never see me coming!


You have neither Hide, Listen nor Spot on your skill list. Of course, neither does Wizard. Neither the fighter or the wizard can really claim stealth as a huge advantage.



Well, I can be decent at Spot once I assign a high roll to something I'd normally use as a dump stat, and spend a feat on it!


:-/ YOU have now re-arranged your build and spent feats for this specific scenario. The wizard, meanwhile, has not traded any of his versatility.



Weapons focus, weapons spec, and improved init.


Spec has minimum level 4. I wasn't aware people actually took Weapons Focus. Wizard has Improved Init too.

16 STR, 1 BAB, Weapons Focus comes to a total of +6 to hit. To hit a wizard with a dex of 14, you'll need to beat a 6. You have a 70% chance of hitting and dealing anywhere from 4-11 damage. With a 6 HP wizard, that means that rolling a 1 or a 2 for damage doesn't end the round. That's a 75% chance of 1-hit KOing. .7 times .75=.52

Your odds of 1-hitting a wizard with average rolls in non-dump stats are the same as the wizard 1-hitting you if you have an above average roll in a dump stat.

This is to say nothing of the fact that a fighter will have great difficulty against things like Bison and Unicorns and Dire Crocodiles when the time comes, while a Wizard will graduate smoothly to Blind and still be able to render foes worthless in a single round.

JaronK
2010-01-07, 06:07 PM
Big if. Which is why my belief is that neither player survives a solo campaign fighting traditionally. They have to be very sneaky for the first few levels, or they're more or less in trouble (dead).

Which is why at the end of the day I'd rather be a Whispergnome Factotum. With Darkstalker you should be totally able to pick all your fights. You lack the raw power of the Wizard, but you can sneak around using Iajuitsu Focus with your Quickrazor (thank you Complete Warrior for making it so you don't need a feat for that!) to one shot enemies after you sneak up on them.

Plus, traps aren't nearly as nasty if you're a Factotum for obvious reasons.

Still, Crusaders can make it happen. Martial Spirit is perfect for this, and with Extra Granted Manuever and Stone Power they're solid as all heck. I wouldn't want to take four Orcs at once or anything, but as long as you can survive the encounters at all you're fine for the next. Plus Steely Resolve ensures they don't go down to one lucky hit.

And again, Dread Necromancers can solo up a storm. Endless healing, decent low level combat abilities, and DR by level 2. Not too shabby.

JaronK

Riffington
2010-01-07, 06:12 PM
This is confused. The limiting factor to how many encounters you can have per day is not "how many times can you inflict damage". It is "how many level-appropriate encounters you can learn about while avoiding all the too-scary encounters".

As such, Bards rule.

Signmaker
2010-01-07, 06:19 PM
Which is why at the end of the day I'd rather be a Whispergnome Factotum. With Darkstalker you should be totally able to pick all your fights. You lack the raw power of the Wizard, but you can sneak around using Iajuitsu Focus with your Quickrazor (thank you Complete Warrior for making it so you don't need a feat for that!) to one shot enemies after you sneak up on them.

Plus, traps aren't nearly as nasty if you're a Factotum for obvious reasons.

Still, Crusaders can make it happen. Martial Spirit is perfect for this, and with Extra Granted Manuever and Stone Power they're solid as all heck. I wouldn't want to take four Orcs at once or anything, but as long as you can survive the encounters at all you're fine for the next. Plus Steely Resolve ensures they don't go down to one lucky hit.

And again, Dread Necromancers can solo up a storm. Endless healing, decent low level combat abilities, and DR by level 2. Not too shabby.

JaronK

I prefer the quick sheath from Dragonlance over the Quickrazor, myself. But that's because I like spamming Pandemonic Silver. Otherwise they're more or less equivalent.

But we digress.

Is the thread more or less wrapped up then?

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-01-07, 06:20 PM
Yeah, but then people started trying arena PvP nonsense. At which point the Wizard goes with dogs and crushes all.

JaronK

I'm wondering however, how you can use these dogs without Handle Animal. Just buying the dog will not allow you to command it to attack, and the DC to train it to attack on command is 20.

Signmaker
2010-01-07, 06:21 PM
I'm wondering however, how you can use these dogs without Handle Animal. Just buying the dog will not allow you to command it to attack, and the DC to train it to attack on command is 20.

If you'd prefer, he could instead hop over to the A&EG, which offers many an animal that he can pay to have pre-trained, thus significantly reducing the DC. They tend to be far more lethal than riding dogs too.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-01-07, 06:23 PM
If you'd prefer, he could instead hop over to the A&EG, which offers many an animal that he can pay to have pre-trained, thus significantly reducing the DC. They tend to be far more lethal than riding dogs too.

That's true, but the question becomes, where is this money coming from?

JaronK
2010-01-07, 06:24 PM
I'm wondering however, how you can use these dogs without Handle Animal. Just buying the dog will not allow you to command it to attack, and the DC to train it to attack on command is 20.

Riding Dogs are already war trained, which comes with the attack command, so you can give the order as a free action outside of your turn (speaking). That means the dogs can actually act before the Wizard. Nasty trick.

And the money comes from the fact that the Wizard's free spellbook is worth over 5kgp (because each 0 level spell is worth 100gp, and he's got all of them). Like I said, this is a tactic for area PvP, not real play.

JaronK

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-01-07, 06:24 PM
Riding Dogs are already war trained, which comes with the attack command, so you can give the order as a free action outside of your turn (speaking). That means the dogs can actually act before the Wizard. Nasty trick.

JaronK
Nasty trick indeed. Kind of wondering how much said dog costs.

Signmaker
2010-01-07, 06:26 PM
And the money comes from the fact that the Wizard's free spellbook is worth over 5kgp (because each 0 level spell is worth 100gp, and he's got all of them). Like I said, this is a tactic for area PvP, not real play.

JaronK

Also, a tactic that not many take kindly. You can buy a 6-headed cryohydra mount for only 4500, and have it trained for something like another 1500.


Nasty trick indeed. Kind of wondering how much said dog costs.

150 gp, as per the PHB.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-01-07, 06:28 PM
Also, a tactic that not many take kindly. You can buy a 6-headed cryohydra mount for only 4500, and have it trained for something like another 1500.



150 gp, as per the PHB.

That just gave me an idea that might have my DM very mad at me. :)

Signmaker
2010-01-07, 06:28 PM
That just gave me an idea that might have my DM very mad at me. :)

I live to serve.

JaronK
2010-01-07, 06:32 PM
Also, a tactic that not many take kindly. You can buy a 6-headed cryohydra mount for only 4500, and have it trained for something like another 1500.

Like I said, it's for arenas, not real play. And yeah, you can get all kinds of nasty stuff, but the dogs are cheap as dirt so you can get a swarm and be sure a few win initiative. I don't like giving my opponent a chance to act, as they might actually do something. Can't have that.

JaronK

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 06:32 PM
JM Brown likes to......... invisibly change the topic to his preferred arena of discussion, second edition. As a result, it's hard to have a good conversation with or involving him in my limited experience, despite the fact that he often is quite eloquent and makes excellent points. The more frustrating bit is the switch back and forth. Head hurts.

In other words,
stop that, you!

I should probably designate but the lack of balancing exists in every edition up to 4th. I would even argue against 4th especially where strikers are concerned but I know less about that edition than all the others.


CR1 traps range up to 4d6 damage. That's not counting a crit. I think it's quite safe to say that a fighter OR wizard getting hit by that is quite dead.


Which was my point regarding why you can't compare two classes together in an adventuring environment. A trap that deals 2d6 points of damage will, on average, kill the wizard but not the fighter. The 4d6 trap will probably kill all the classes.

Traps are encounters too and unlike spotting 2 orcs in the distance a non-rogue can't spot the common trap.

JaronK
2010-01-07, 06:34 PM
I would assume that for this rapid low level leveling scheme you'd stay out of dungeons. Neither Wizards nor archery Fighters want to be in a closed in dungeon full of traps. It's basically like standard MMO leveling... run around the newbie area hacking up CR 1 annoyances.

Meanwhile, a Factotum could absolutely dungeon crawl for Exp, as they rock in that environment.

JaronK

Riffington
2010-01-07, 06:39 PM
Riding Dogs are already war trained, which comes with the attack command, so you can give the order as a free action outside of your turn (speaking). That means the dogs can actually act before the Wizard. Nasty trick.

Wait, you can use free actions while flat-footed?

JaronK
2010-01-07, 07:26 PM
Wait, you can use free actions while flat-footed?

Speaking is specifically a free action that can be done out of turn. It's special that way.

JaronK

Grommen
2010-01-07, 10:13 PM
And his epic level wizard cohort realizes he wears the pants in the relationship and disintigrates the epic level fighter.

whow it only took one post! :smallbiggrin:

I'm starting to think it's less about fighters and wizards, and more about picking a fight. At this point the two camps have dug a trench wider and deeper than the one that went across Europe in WWI. Lets get the UN in here to negotiate a cice-fire.

chiasaur11
2010-01-07, 10:30 PM
whow it only took one post! :smallbiggrin:

I'm starting to think it's less about fighters and wizards, and more about picking a fight. At this point the two camps have dug a trench wider and deeper than the one that went across Europe in WWI. Lets get the UN in here to negotiate a cice-fire.

I think you're thinking of the League of Nations.

More period appropriate.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-07, 11:14 PM
whow it only took one post! :smallbiggrin:

I'm starting to think it's less about fighters and wizards, and more about picking a fight. At this point the two camps have dug a trench wider and deeper than the one that went across Europe in WWI. Lets get the UN in here to negotiate a cice-fire.

Well, in fairness, it's pretty obvious that trying to prove "how fighters are more powerful than wizards" by using a fighter(with a wizard) is a wee bit pointless, and is only going to attract people pointing out the obvious logical flaw.

You're not proving that a fighter is more powerful than a wizard...its ECLx fighter + eclx-2 wizard > eclx wizard. Which is...doubtful. Depends on levels.

Even if they end up being equal, basically you've only proven that a fighter is equivalent to 2 levels of wizard. Um, congrats?

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-07, 11:34 PM
I should probably designate but the lack of balancing exists in every edition up to 4th. I would even argue against 4th especially where strikers are concerned but I know less about that edition than all the others.

OH NOES I KAN DEEL DMG111!


Ssriously people...

Deepblue706
2010-01-08, 12:06 AM
Riding Dogs are already war trained, which comes with the attack command, so you can give the order as a free action outside of your turn (speaking). That means the dogs can actually act before the Wizard. Nasty trick.

Are you sure about that? The Skill Entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm) suggests to me that only the Ranger's and Druid's Animal Companions can be commanded as Free Actions with a Handle Animal check (to which they also have a bonus), but in any other case, the PC in question has to do it as a Move Action.

adecoy95
2011-03-27, 01:48 AM
at level 3 a wizard casting invisibility/levitate will beat the fighter every time.

at higher levels i suppose it would depend on the magic items. but a wizard would start off with the winning edge and i would be surprised if the fighter ever could get enough magic items to overcome it (assuming the wizard doesn't stay in rags either).

JaronK
2011-03-27, 04:40 AM
Are you sure about that? The Skill Entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm) suggests to me that only the Ranger's and Druid's Animal Companions can be commanded as Free Actions with a Handle Animal check (to which they also have a bonus), but in any other case, the PC in question has to do it as a Move Action.

You've got a dog trained to attack when the master says "Sic 'em." Saying "Sic 'em" is a free action because it's just speaking (in fact, "Sic balls, Chopper!" is also legitimate).

Then again, the ending does indicate it might be a move action, in which case this silly dog Wizard really ought to take Improved Initiative... or just have the dogs trained to guard him, in which case they'll attack hostiles automatically.

As for this overall thread, I remembered that avoiding an encounter also counts as beating it, so clearly the winner here is still a Whispergnome stealth class (Factotum, Rogue, Scout, whatever) who just sneaks past lots of stuff. That should level you VERY quickly!

JaronK

Engine
2011-03-27, 04:45 AM
You've got a dog trained to attack when the master says "Sic 'em." Saying "Sic 'em" is a free action because it's just speaking (in fact, "Sic balls, Chopper!" is also legitimate).
Then again, the ending does indicate it might be a move action, in which case this silly dog Wizard really ought to take Improved Initiative... or just have the dogs trained to guard him, in which case they'll attack hostiles automatically

While speaking per se is a Free Action, speaking when handling an animal is a Move Action. Doesn't make a sense, but, hey. It's D&D.:smallwink:

Swooper
2011-03-27, 10:43 AM
Whoa, what's with the necromancy? :smalleek:

Firechanter
2011-03-27, 11:21 AM
Looks like someone cast Raise Thread. Lose a level and 5000GP.

averagejoe
2011-03-27, 01:01 PM
The Mod They Call Me: Thread necromancy.