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View Full Version : D&D 3.5: Skeletons and Zombies, oh my!



Duke of URL
2010-01-07, 02:18 PM
If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell.


If the base creature has more than 10 Hit Dice (not counting those gained with experience), it can’t be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell.

Okay, I understand the rule. I'm not arguing the fact that it exists as RAW. I just want to know... WHY?

I mean, is there are practical reason I shouldn't have a 30 HD zombie or skeleton running around (okay, probably not running, in the case of a zombie, but never mind that) other than the fact that RAW says you can't do it?

In other words, is there a specific rationale behind this restriction, or is it just arbitrary?

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 02:23 PM
You don't see a problem with a level 6 cleric having a 12 hd zombie or a level 11 cleric with a 22 hd skeleton?

hamishspence
2010-01-07, 02:28 PM
Draconomicon chucks these limits out, with Skeletal Dragons and Zombie Dragons- that have no Hit Dice limits.

Zombie Dragons don't have the "double hit dice" that normal zombies do.

Combine with Desecrate spell and an altar for animating things with four times your hit dice- nasty.

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 02:30 PM
The limits for skeletons and zombies only apply to animate dead. The DM can wave his hand and say you fight a tarrasque zombie if he wanted.

kamikasei
2010-01-07, 02:33 PM
Seems like rather poor editing to put the limit on the spell in the template rather than the spell description, then.

Duke of URL
2010-01-07, 02:40 PM
You don't see a problem with a level 6 cleric having a 12 hd zombie or a level 11 cleric with a 22 hd skeleton?

A level 6 cleric CAN have a 12 HD zombie (double caster level). It's the 11th-level cleric who can't have a 22 HD skeleton or zombie.

And no, I don't have a problem with it, especially as skeletons and zombies are generally underpowered for their HD and CR, especially at higher HD.

KillianHawkeye
2010-01-07, 03:56 PM
I think the decision just got made somehow that a skeleton or zombie shouldn't have more than 20 HD in a typical game. If you're playing with Epic levels or certain expansion books, then things may be different.

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 03:58 PM
A level 6 cleric CAN have a 12 HD zombie (double caster level). It's the 11th-level cleric who can't have a 22 HD skeleton or zombie.

And no, I don't have a problem with it, especially as skeletons and zombies are generally underpowered for their HD and CR, especially at higher HD.

No, he can't have a 12 HD zombie because a 12HD zombie can't be animated.

The CR system is clunky as is. An CR 10 wizard can summon all the monsters he wants and by the CR system he's no more difficult than CR 10. A CR 10 wizard with a 10 HD zombie is more difficult than a CR 10 encounter.

kamikasei
2010-01-07, 04:03 PM
No, he can't have a 12 HD zombie because a 12HD zombie can't be animated.

A 6HD base creature can be animated to yield a 12HD zombie, a 12HD base creature can't be animated to yield a 24HD zombie. I think you intended to say the latter but have been taken to have meant the former (since you referred to the number of HD possessed by the zombie).

Runestar
2010-01-07, 09:03 PM
I agree that it is probably a metagame decision - that creatures with 21+ HD are too powerful to be animated as skeletons or something.

Then along comes draconomicon and their ridiculously under-cr'ed skeletal dragons...:smallyuk:

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-07, 09:20 PM
Why do 1st-level wizards get 3 cantrips per level? Why does Magic Missile cap at 5 missiles? Why do undead get d12 HD? Why are skeletons capped at 20 HD?
Because people are ultimately arbitrary.

Not awfully difficult to houserule, anyway.

rayne_dragon
2010-01-07, 09:23 PM
It's probably arbitrary, but you could fluff it as there isn't enough negative energy fueling the animate dead spell to make undead with more than 20 HD. It's really no different than the limits placed on other spells.

Duke of URL
2010-01-07, 09:24 PM
I think some of you are missing the point of the question. I'm not concerned with "fluffing it" or houseruling it. I want to know if there's a logical REASON for the rule.

JaronK
2010-01-07, 09:29 PM
No. Plague of Undead IIRC shatters those limits too, but it's a 9th level spell. It's basically just a cap on the spell much like most blast spells are capped, so that a 3rd or 4th level spell isn't strong even at level 15.

JaronK

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-07, 09:31 PM
I think the decision just got made somehow

I agree that it is probably a metagame decision


ultimately arbitrary.

It's probably arbitrary


We're just trying to hijack your thread with our talk of fluff and houserules.

dragonfan6490
2010-01-07, 09:56 PM
This may not be a consolation, but in the BoVD there are the Bone Creature and Corpse Creature Templates, which can be created by Create Undead or Create Greater Undead. They keep their HD and all class levels from life. Makes for interesting enemies.

ie.
Paladin: Look Skeletons! Attack!
Wizard: *Casts ordinarily Battle Ending Spell*
Bone Creature Wizard: *Counters Spell*

JaronK
2010-01-07, 09:58 PM
My favorite is Haunt Shifting an undead skeleton into a dead skeleton. Then it's a construct with a hardness score. That confuses them EVERY time.

JaronK

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 10:14 PM
I think some of you are missing the point of the question. I'm not concerned with "fluffing it" or houseruling it. I want to know if there's a logical REASON for the rule.

The reason is so a 3rd level spell doesn't grossly increase the ECL of a fight.

A 10th level cleric can summon up to 20HD of undead in a single casting and has a maximum of 40HD. He casts desecrate to summon up to 40HD and decides to create 2 roc skeletons. His ECL just bumped up to 12. Maybe he stumbles across a dragon graveyard. If he could summon more powerful stuff like you suggested, this level 10 cleric with desecrate could create a silver great wyrm which, judging by the way the skeleton chart works, would have a CR of 15. The ECL 10 cleric just bumped up to ECL 15 and no cleric at level 10 would be turning that dragon skeleton.

The limits on skeletons and zombies are there for the very reason of desecrate + animate dead. It's to keep people from creating things that grossly inflate their ECL as a third level spell.

It peters off once you hit level 15 but at that point undead are a waste of time especially when you can planar bind demons and easily afford rings of wishes. Epic spells includes an animate dead seed where you can summon practically any intelligent undead. Who the heck wants to be dealing with skeletons at that level?

Edit: Oh yeah, don't forget all the disgusting feats in Libris Mortis which do stuff like give undead you create boosted ability scores or cause them to violently explode upon death. My dragon skeleton dies, 40d6 points of damage Mr. 10th level fighter.

Magic is already stupid. If it didn't have caps it'd be stupider.

Runestar
2010-01-07, 10:23 PM
We're just trying to hijack your thread with our talk of fluff and houserules.

Except that I wasn't talking about fluff or houserules.

I feel the logical reason is exactly that - the designers, in their bid to create an internally consistent dnd setting, felt that there shouldn't be skeletons of more than 21HD. Just because. I don't think it is a game balance issue (since you can create undead hydras). Unlike 4e, they actually felt a monster's stats could accurately portray how it was able to go about its daily routine, rather than simply represent what a 5-round combat scenario with the PCs would entail.

It is the same reason why monsters have abilities they otherwise would never get to use in combat.

erikun
2010-01-07, 10:24 PM
I think some of you are missing the point of the question. I'm not concerned with "fluffing it" or houseruling it. I want to know if there's a logical REASON for the rule.
Reasons? Probably one of the following:

1.) So that the players do not have access to epic-level creatures
2.) So that a 3rd level spell has a restriction on what it can create
3.) Because abilities and immunities do not scale with HD, thus a 25 HD zombie would be far weaker than a standard 25 HD creature

I think #3 has been the official reason, much in the same way that HD advancement is capped after a certain amount. The first two may be better reasons for such a restriction, though I wouldn't be sure if they were part of the intention when the rule was designed.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-07, 10:25 PM
If he could summon more powerful stuff like you suggested, this level 10 cleric with desecrate could create a silver great wyrm which, judging by the way the skeleton chart works, would have a CR of 15.

Except... he can. There's a Skeletal Dragon template in Draconomicon with no cap.


Unlike 4e, they actually felt a monster's stats could accurately portray how it was able to go about its daily routine, rather than simply represent what a 5-round combat scenario with the PCs would entail.

Wait, what? What does this have to do with skeletons and zombies? They're mindless undead; they have no daily routine. And as you mentioned with the hydra example, a necromancer isn't limited in the effects he can produce.

JaronK
2010-01-07, 10:26 PM
Yeah, but you have to find a Dragon to do that, so it's a bit harder.

JaronK

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 10:29 PM
Except... he can. There's a Skeletal Dragon template in Draconomicon with no cap.

Draconomicon isn't core so I couldn't care less about it. If your DM allows it, well then your level 10 cleric with desecrate can now create monsters way above his level. Finding the bleached, intact bones of a dead monstrosity is now a necromancers treasure. They should give that a GP calculation on the WBL chart.

And even if Draconomicon does have 20HD+ skeletons, the skeleton template still says you can't animate it. Is there a note in Draconomicon saying "Skeletons above 20HD may be animate through the animate dead spell"? If it doesn't then skeleton dragons are regulated to DM's hands only.

Coidzor
2010-01-07, 10:38 PM
^: Agreed. When creating a dread necromancer, I was struck by how I'd basically be stuck begging the DM for the backstory to have any minions.

And, yeah, getting one's hands on the intact remains of a dragon is a treasure to anyone, necromancer or not. Considering the uses for the hide alone.
My favorite is Haunt Shifting an undead skeleton into a dead skeleton. Then it's a construct with a hardness score. That confuses them EVERY time.

JaronK

What's the source on that?

Runestar
2010-01-07, 10:38 PM
Wait, what? What does this have to do with skeletons and zombies?

Basically, my point is that spells may not have been designed solely on merit of balance, but also on how they ought to function in the dnd world. In hindsight, I admit my example wasn't the most apt.

Animate dead not creating 21+ HD undead could be one of these factors. There is no why.

JaronK
2010-01-07, 10:44 PM
What's the source on that?

Libris Mortis. Takes a bit to learn how to use the spell as it's complex, but it's VERY powerful.

And JM, yes, Draconomicon specifies that dragons are special when targetted with Animate Dead.

JaronK

jmbrown
2010-01-07, 10:52 PM
Libris Mortis. Takes a bit to learn how to use the spell as it's complex, but it's VERY powerful.

And JM, yes, Draconomicon specifies that dragons are special when targetted with Animate Dead.

JaronK

I could see creating an entire adventure around finding a fabled dragon graveyard (like poachers follow elephants to their graveyard to snatch up the ivory). Of course, as DM I'd be more wary about letting my clerics have a loyal, eternal, permanent minion with HD 4x their caster level.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-08, 12:08 AM
True Dragons aren't even that much worse than regular undead, except for the excess HD. The real fun is the fact that the Skeletal Dragons keep certain abilities that are usually lost. The Rage Drake in MMIII becomes very, very scary.

ericgrau
2010-01-08, 02:15 AM
The CR system is clunky as is. An CR 10 wizard can summon all the monsters he wants and by the CR system he's no more difficult than CR 10. A CR 10 wizard with a 10 HD zombie is more difficult than a CR 10 encounter.
Nah usually he's easier than CR 10, since there are often better spells you can cast than summons. But if you mean it's a permanent zombie and he restores all his spell slots, then IIRC the CR system says you're supposed to add in the zombie anyway.

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-08, 08:20 AM
Draconomicon isn't core so I couldn't care less about it. If your DM allows it, well then your level 10 cleric with desecrate can now create monsters way above his level. Finding the bleached, intact bones of a dead monstrosity is now a necromancers treasure. They should give that a GP calculation on the WBL chart.

And even if Draconomicon does have 20HD+ skeletons, the skeleton template still says you can't animate it. Is there a note in Draconomicon saying "Skeletons above 20HD may be animate through the animate dead spell"? If it doesn't then skeleton dragons are regulated to DM's hands only.

You don't need bleached, intact bones to make a skeleton. You can turn a fresh corpse into a skeleton too. :smallwink:

jmbrown
2010-01-08, 08:50 AM
You don't need bleached, intact bones to make a skeleton. You can turn a fresh corpse into a skeleton too. :smallwink:

The way I look at it, if you manage to find a dead dragon in the wild it's going to look like a krayt dragon: a pile of picked over bones. I'm sure every medium sized scavenger or larger will be hacking at those scales for some meat and every adventure and necromancer will be picking over its remains.

Speaking of krayt dragon, I'm going to have to make an adventure around this. Say there's a 5% chance per dragon age category that a "dragon pearl" forms in the gizzard of a dragon (due to all that metal and crap they eat). Some bard stumbles into a busy tavern with wild tales of a mystical dragon graveyard AND THE RACE IS ON!

Anonymouswizard
2010-01-08, 08:53 AM
You don't need bleached, intact bones to make a skeleton. You can turn a fresh corpse into a skeleton too. :smallwink:

:xykon:<---I never got why he liked zombies.

Runestar
2010-01-08, 09:03 AM
A 10th level cleric can summon up to 20HD of undead in a single casting and has a maximum of 40HD.

Bear in mind the casting time of animate dead, meaning you can never be casting it during combat. If the wizard npc begins battle already accompanied by skeletal minions, you will have to increase his EL (and the loss of a few slots shouldn't be enough to affect his cr, because he will have other spells to cast).

Conversely, a wizard summoning allies during combat isn't necessarily any tougher since you have to waste a round casting summon monster, and that round could just as easily have been used to cast some other spell like fireball or glitterdust. So it won't affect his cr.

Of course, if you have the wizard already summon a monster prior to battle, then some extra xp should be in order. :smallsmile:

Optimystik
2010-01-08, 09:09 AM
:xykon:<---I never got why he liked zombies.

Perhaps skeletons are too similar to him for his liking?

But some of his tricks (particularly the one he used in SoD) are made possible with zombies and not skeletons.

Duke of URL
2010-01-08, 09:56 AM
The way I look at it, if you manage to find a dead dragon in the wild it's going to look like a krayt dragon: a pile of picked over bones. I'm sure every medium sized scavenger or larger will be hacking at those scales for some meat and every adventure and necromancer will be picking over its remains.

Which is why you hunt your own dragons, to ensure the availability of the corpse in the first place. Graverobbing is flavorful, but much too dependent on random chance. Whereas animating the biggest, baddest meanie you can control is a safe option.

To those who are suggesting that the HD cap is specifically for the purposes of the animate dead spell, I strongly agree with kamikasei -- it's very poor writing and editing to put that limitation in the template and not in the spell description. If that was indeed the original intent, it was thrown out the window with Draconomicon.

hamishspence
2010-01-08, 10:19 AM
Technicially, given the HD cap on zombies, Redcloak's animation of the Ancient Silver Dragon, is only possible if the Draconomicon Zombie Dragon rules are being used.

And it is referred to as a zombie dragon in the strip, rather than a dragon zombie, as the MM refers to animated dragon corpses as.

One of the cheesiest things done with zombies and skeletons, is using Polymorph Any Object to turn a bit of flesh or bone into a whole corpse or skeleton, of whatever type you want.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-08, 10:45 AM
Technicially, given the HD cap on zombies, Redcloak's animation of the Ancient Silver Dragon, is only possible if the Draconomicon Zombie Dragon rules are being used.

And it is referred to as a zombie dragon in the strip, rather than a dragon zombie, as the MM refers to animated dragon corpses as.

One of the cheesiest things done with zombies and skeletons, is using Polymorph Any Object to turn a bit of flesh or bone into a whole corpse or skeleton, of whatever type you want.

Consider that the inverse works as one of the stupidest SoDs (turning a living human into a corpse), I believe it.

Someonelse
2014-05-11, 11:13 PM
My understanding of Animate Dead is that the hit dice of the zombie or skeleton are dependent upon the hit dice it had in life. The creature animated looses all class levels (down to 1) and therefore any hit dice related to them but they retain all racial hit dice. Then those hit die that remain are all changed to undead hit dice.
For example, you are a level 20 spell caster and you want a sweet giant skeleton to use as a tank. So you seek out and slay a 60 HD colossal scorpion, then cast Desecrate followed by Animate Dead. Now you have a sweet 60 hit die zombie or skeleton you control.

hamishspence
2014-05-12, 02:11 AM
Problem is - this doesn't apply to normal zombies or skeletons:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm

Hit Dice
Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), double the number of Hit Dice left, and raise them to d12s. If the base creature has more than 10 Hit Dice (not counting those gained with experience), it can’t be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm

Hit Dice
Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell.

Zombie dragons, however, don't follow the "double hit dice" and "10 HD cap" rules. Skeletal dragons don't follow the 20HD cap rule.

Thus you'd need a Half-dragon scorpion, and the Zombie Dragon or Skeletal Dragon template, if you wanted to animate a 60 HD scorpion as a zombie or skeleton.

RedMage125
2014-05-12, 02:26 PM
The Zombie Dragon from the Draconomicon also specifies some pretty stupid rules.

For example, a Dragon younger than Adult cannot be made into a Zombie Dragon (presumably to avoid some kind "zombie children" mentality, even if that "child" is a dragon).

However, the Vampiric Dragon template says the same thing, that only an adult dragon can be a vampire (which is semi-cohesive with the 5+ HD restriction for vampiric non-dragons). BUT, if a vampiric dragon happens to slay a sub-adult dragon, that victim instead turns into a zombie dragon.

But we've already established that the zombie dragon template cannot be applied to sub-adult dragons...

WTF, Wotc?

Xar Zarath
2014-05-13, 12:00 AM
...*snip*...WTF, Wotc?

Sssh, don't worry, its ok they cant hurt you anymore:smallredface:...besides there's 5e now:smallbiggrin:

TuggyNE
2014-05-13, 01:35 AM
Sssh, don't worry, its ok they cant hurt you anymore:smallredface:...besides there's 5e now:smallbiggrin:

One of these clauses appears to weaken the other. :smallfrown: