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View Full Version : Caster nerf to 2nd tier 3.5 [PEACH]



paddyfool
2010-01-08, 06:20 AM
Do you think this would work to make tier 1 casters more Tier 2ish in 3.5?

- Give Wizards, Clerics and Druids only the same slots to memorise spells as Sorceror currently has for spells known.
- Have the only Sorcerors be Battle Sorcerors (Unearthed Arcana).
- Use PHBII variant for wild shape.
- Ban DMM cheese
EDIT: - Ban all metamagic reducers except metamagic rods
EDIT: - Ban some of the more infamous prestige classes
EDIT: - Nerf animal companion somehow (Wild Cohort? Ranger version?)

EDIT: Feel free to suggest similar fixes for other tier 1 casters - I only really felt at all confident with those from Core.

Roderick_BR
2010-01-08, 08:25 AM
I didn't understand what you said about clerics and wizards. They get spell slots equal to the sorcerer's spells known? They already start with more or less that (one 1st level spell on first level, one 2nd level spell at third level..), no change here.
Battle Sorcerer variant is good, though I'd make it 1 less spell slot instead of 1 less known spell. Give him the Schew Materials too.
For the druid, wildshape works. You can nerf his animal companion too, I think there's a feat called wild cohort that is a weaker animal companion http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a just add back the empathic link.
I think that DMM, like Natural Spell, didn't have to exist, as these classes are strong enough already. Creating feats to remove limitations of already overpowered classes is stupid.

paddyfool
2010-01-08, 08:39 AM
I didn't understand what you said about clerics and wizards. They get spell slots equal to the sorcerer's spells known? They already start with more or less that (one 1st level spell on first level, one 2nd level spell at third level..), no change here.

This would nerf them in two ways:

1) Delay the arrival of each new level of spellcasting by one level (2nd level spells at 4th level not 3rd, all the way up to 9th level spells at 18th level not 17th).

2) Give them less spell slots for casting the higher level spells, and thus make them less likely to have an answer for everything.

If nothing else, the first of these effects might delay caster domination for at least one level of play.

On the other hand, it would also give them the compensation of giving them more slots for low-level spells, and a lot more for cantrips, right from level 1. I'm absolutely fine with this - a level 1 wizard with one more 1st level spell and 1 more cantrip is going to have more fun without making the other party members look bad, and a level 10+ wizard can feel free to go to town with their 9 cantrips per day.

Overall, what this does is make the power curve a smidgen less non-linear.

EDIT: However, I have seen a real downside on further examination - sorc known spell progression barely progresses at levels 2 and 3, making these levels a bit dead. Any suggestions on what might best compensate for this?

Latronis
2010-01-08, 09:46 AM
I didn't understand what you said about clerics and wizards. They get spell slots equal to the sorcerer's spells known? They already start with more or less that (one 1st level spell on first level, one 2nd level spell at third level..), no change here.
Battle Sorcerer variant is good, though I'd make it 1 less spell slot instead of 1 less known spell. Give him the Schew Materials too.
For the druid, wildshape works. You can nerf his animal companion too, I think there's a feat called wild cohort that is a weaker animal companion http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a just add back the empathic link.
I think that DMM, like Natural Spell, didn't have to exist, as these classes are strong enough already. Creating feats to remove limitations of already overpowered classes is stupid.

The battle sorcerer is one less spell known and one less spell per day per spell level.

Set
2010-01-08, 09:55 AM
I'm less convinced that Wizards warrant any sort of nerf (some individual wizard *spells*, on the other hand, could do with a beating), but for Clerics and Druids, my 'fix' would be to require them to be either Spontaneous Casters (spells known as a sorcerer, no more knowledge of their entire spell-list, but +1 casting / day / level of spells) or Prepared Casters (maintain a prayerbook, learning and aquiring spells as a Wizard, with X at 1st level, and then 2 / level free thereafter, with all others needing to be purchased).

In my mind, that's close to the biggest 'offense' of the Cleric and Druid, is their access to every darn spell on their spell list, at no cost at all.

While making that change, I'd remove the Sorcerer class entirely from the game, and allow a Wizard to make that same choice at 1st level, to be a Prepared Caster or a Spontaneous Caster. As a Spontaneous Caster, he'd continue to learn new spells at the same levels as he would as a Wizard (no offset casting) and gain the Wizard's bonus feats, being essentially a Wizard with a tiny set of Spells Known and a few extra spells / day that he can cast flexibly, instead of fixed prepared spells from a spellbook.

Ditto the Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Assassin, Blackguard, Adept, etc. Every spellcaster would choose at 1st level to be be Spontaneous or Prepared. No need for a 'spontaneous cleric' Favored Soul or a 'spontaneous druid' Spirit Shaman class or for an argument over whether the Assassin should be prepared (as in 3.0) or spontaneous (as in 3.5).

lesser_minion
2010-01-08, 12:20 PM
An interesting idea.

Bringing back Animal Friendship (and the animal cleric's ability to cast it), and nerfing it to 2nd level for druids and clerics would probably handle "I have a fighter as a class feature".

I'd suggest giving half casters full caster level instead of half to compliment that.

Spontaneous summoning needs to die in a fire, and I'd suggest changing Wild Shape into a spell.

That removes the "I have all of this and full casting" and brings back the druid's supposed limitation of having little or no synergy between his two biggest class feature.

Being able to use gear while Wild Shaped was also a 3.5 invention, and should be removed, especially Wilding Clasps.

Dante & Vergil
2010-01-08, 01:25 PM
Do you think this would work to make tier 1 casters more Tier 2ish in 3.5?

- Give Wizards, Clerics and Druids only the same slots to memorise spells as Sorceror currently has for spells known.
- Have the only Sorcerors be Battle Sorcerors (Unearthed Arcana).
- Use PHBII variant for wild shape.
- Ban DMM cheese
EDIT: - Ban all metamagic reducers except metamagic rods
EDIT: - Ban some of the more infamous prestige classes
EDIT: - Nerf animal companion somehow (Wild Cohort? Ranger version?)

EDIT: Feel free to suggest similar fixes for other tier 1 casters - I only really felt at all confident with those from Core.

The 1st is ok, but as Roderick said, it doesn't change much. You can just turn the classes into spontaneous casting classes (mainly the druid and/or cleric) and give them spells known similar to a sorcerers.
The 2nd works, but would would better, as suggested earlier, if it was one less spell per day each level instead of one spell known per level.
The 3rd is fine as is, but be sure that it can quallify as wildshape for requirements of things, and that it have more supplemental material, because it's very sparse.
The 4th only really needs the stipulation that DMM can only attach metamagic as long as you can cast the spell normally w/o the reduction.
The 5th is ok, but personally I don't think it would be a problem if one were to be allowed to take feats that reduce single metamagic feats by one being only two feats that allow that; one normal feat (Easy Metamagic from one of the Dragons is a good example), and one for epic (Improved Metamagic from the ELH). It's only what I think because feats are a limited resource as it is.
The 6th should be fine.
The 7th is ok, but maybe you should just remove it, and only allow the druid to pick the animal companion or the shapeshifting.

My final word is that if you use shapeshifting, natural spell really shouldn't be a problem.

taltamir
2010-01-10, 06:34 PM
reducing all the full casters from tier 1 to tier 2 is ridiculously easy:
1. "there is no such thing as a prepared casters. All casters are spontanous."
2. Profit

this means that your spells known are limited instead of infinite. You just dropped a whopping whole tier from 1 to 2 because you have gone from "I buy some scrolls, scribe them and rest for a day" or "I pray for a day" and you get to completely alter your spells to "I have only X tricks I know, X is determined by my levels, I cannot change it other then leveling up"

clerics, despite having spells which are inferior to wizard/sorc spells, are still tier 1 because they are even more versatile (every cleric knows any cleric spell ever published by WOTC... no finding scrolls, no scribing... if they are high enough level they can just pray for them in the morning and get them)

Naturally that makes some classes redundant (wizard vs sorcerer, cleric vs favored soul)... you can combine those if you want.

EDIT: check this thread
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7666872#post7666872

using this database:
http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndLive/FindSpell.php

Every cleric (in addition to their ability to emulate spells from other classes using anyspell (spell domain), they can emulate any 7th or level level spell using miracle (no XP cost for this use).

But even ignoring that. Clerics know at least 926 spells, druids 709 spells.

EDIT2:
Op, your suggestions are all sound, but they are more of a "reducing casters from 2nd tier to 3rd tier"... something to do after you already banned the "infinite spells known" to drop all tier 1 classes to tier 2.
Oh, and nerf druid shapeshifting (since it gives it an infinite amount of shapes, many of which have crazy SLAs)

Jane_Smith
2010-01-10, 08:47 PM
Maybe change Natural Spell into a metamagic feat, like so?


Natural Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit: You can complete the verbal and somatic components of the spell while polymorphed. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of the spell.
You can also use any material component or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while polymorphed unless that form is normally capable of speech. A natural spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.

This also allows transmuter wiz/sorc's access to it, and druids using other things beside's wild shape - yet at a cost now. We use this in my homebrew'ed games.

Milskidasith
2010-01-10, 09:19 PM
Maybe change Natural Spell into a metamagic feat, like so?


Natural Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit: You can complete the verbal and somatic components of the spell while polymorphed. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of the spell.
You can also use any material component or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while polymorphed unless that form is normally capable of speech. A natural spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.

This also allows transmuter wiz/sorc's access to it, and druids using other things beside's wild shape - yet at a cost now. We use this in my homebrew'ed games.

That's way, way too big of an increase in spell slot. A 0 increase that forced to choose if it was cast in regular or wildshape form, and a massive duration reduction on wildshape, could work, though.

Temotei
2010-01-10, 09:25 PM
I thought the sorcerer was tier 2 already.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-10, 09:49 PM
reducing all the full casters from tier 1 to tier 2 is ridiculously easy:
1. "there is no such thing as a prepared casters. All casters are spontanous."
2. Profit

This. The difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is versatility, not power. Sorcerer can still snap the game in half, he just needs Psychic Reformation if he wants to snap the game in half in several different ways. Wizard-nerfed-in-spell-progression can still snap the game in half, he just can't snap the game in half more than one way in a given day.

Temotei
2010-01-10, 10:34 PM
This. The difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is versatility, not power. Sorcerer can still snap the game in half, he just needs Psychic Reformation if he wants to snap the game in half in several different ways. Wizard-nerfed-in-spell-progression can still snap the game in half, he just can't snap the game in half more than one way in a given day.

That's what tier 2 means. Able to break the game, but not in as many ways as a tier one.

Latronis
2010-01-11, 12:37 AM
That's way, way too big of an increase in spell slot. A 0 increase that forced to choose if it was cast in regular or wildshape form, and a massive duration reduction on wildshape, could work, though.

So.. natural spells have no adjustment but are only useable while wildshaped?

I'd just make it a +1 adjustment (natural spell is similiar to silent + spell, but not as useful as a silent + stilled spell) and allow it to be cast while not shaped.. which is using a +1 slot for no gain so if they want too they can.

Draz74
2010-01-11, 01:31 AM
Someone's gotta point out the SRD's rules for switching Clerics and Druids to spontaneous casting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm).

That right there makes Clerics Tier 2. Adding in the PHB2 Shapeshift Variant for Druids makes Druids Tier 2 too.

Even better, that variant rule makes Clerics of different gods actually play differently. It's brilliant. Almost as good as just replacing the Cleric with the Ardent. :smallamused:

I'd still recommend a few tweaks to these classes:

Clerics shouldn't get Heavy Armor Proficiency. Instead, they should get proficiency with their deity's Favored Weapon. Heavy Armor Proficiency becomes a bonus feature of the War Domain.
If you're not allowing Cloistered Clerics, then change the standard Cleric into something a little closer to Cloistered: d6 Hit Die, 4 skill points/level.
Divine Power is a War Domain spell. It is not on the general Cleric list.
Turn attempts from Nightsticks can't be used to power other feats (including DMM). Just for actually turning Undead.
Poor nerfed Druids should probably get Wild Cohort as a bonus feat (at their first "dead level"). If they spend an actual feat on this animal, it should get back the special benefits that a normal RAW Druid's companion gets. (I.e. share spells, be handled as a free action. Keep the Hit Dice and such to the normal table for Wild Cohort.)
If your druids are too good at abusing summoning spells (or they just make the game move too slowly), use the other PHB2 variant that gives Druids a fast healing spell-ish thingie instead of summoning.


Voila, a Cleric and Druid class that I actually don't mind playing with. Nicely Tier 2.

Erudite ... just ban it. It really doesn't add any flavor to what the Psion already has.

Wizard, Archivist, and Artificer are much trickier to fix. It's tough to limit the number of Spells Known on a Wizard or Archivist without spoiling their scholarly flavor.

Temotei
2010-01-11, 01:39 AM
So.. natural spells have no adjustment but are only useable while wildshaped?

I'd just make it a +1 adjustment (natural spell is similiar to silent + spell, but not as useful as a silent + stilled spell) and allow it to be cast while not shaped.. which is using a +1 slot for no gain so if they want too they can.

Read his post again.

He meant that if you do the metamagic route with Natural Spell, to reduce wildshape duration instead of increase the actual spell levels of spells cast.

Drolyt
2010-01-11, 11:57 AM
Do you think this would work to make tier 1 casters more Tier 2ish in 3.5?

- Give Wizards, Clerics and Druids only the same slots to memorise spells as Sorceror currently has for spells known.
- Have the only Sorcerors be Battle Sorcerors (Unearthed Arcana).
- Use PHBII variant for wild shape.
- Ban DMM cheese
EDIT: - Ban all metamagic reducers except metamagic rods
EDIT: - Ban some of the more infamous prestige classes
EDIT: - Nerf animal companion somehow (Wild Cohort? Ranger version?)

EDIT: Feel free to suggest similar fixes for other tier 1 casters - I only really felt at all confident with those from Core.

1. This won't hurt them that much, gives them more lower level spells, hurts the Wizard the least. It's really the spells that make them broken, limiting how many of them they get won't help.
2. They already are Tier 2. This hurts Sorcerers far more than the above hurts the Tier 1 Classes.
3. Works fine.
4. No reason to ban. It's non core, no sane DM should allow it.
5. Again, other than the Rods its non core. DMs shouldn't be allowing things that ruin their game.
6. The most powerful core prestige class is the Archmage, hardly broken. DMs should be banning anything that will ruin their game.
7. Although some people complain about Animal Companions, they really aren't that powerful unless you come up with some trick that really abuses them.
Your ideas aren't bad, but other than the Wild Shape thing I don't think they would help that much. If you are allowing all non core material without review into your games it's your own fault that DMM and Incantatrix are ruining the game.

taltamir
2010-01-11, 09:27 PM
This. The difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is versatility, not power. Sorcerer can still snap the game in half, he just needs Psychic Reformation if he wants to snap the game in half in several different ways. Wizard-nerfed-in-spell-progression can still snap the game in half, he just can't snap the game in half more than one way in a given day.

to clarify:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138003

In this thread I show exactly how many spells a cleric can cast. Close to a thousand cleric spells, but thousands with anyspell and XP free wish emulation.