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View Full Version : So, you're going to fight an army...



Rasman
2010-01-08, 07:01 PM
...what do you, as an individual melee character, bring with you to make fighting these masses MUCH easier?

arguskos
2010-01-08, 07:02 PM
inb4 caster.

Anyways, I would probably bring some siege engines, use them to soften up the enemy lines before I engage them.

Glass Mouse
2010-01-08, 07:03 PM
A great cleavage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0102.html).

Prime32
2010-01-08, 07:05 PM
Something which gives you a damaging aura, like the mantle of flame soulmeld.

Some Desert Wind manouvers, which are one of the few ways a martial character can deal area damage.

Eldariel
2010-01-08, 07:06 PM
Armor of Invulnerability. DR 5/Magic is gonna go a long way, and is very much the easiest way of acquiring DR. Also, Martial Spirit, Delayed Damage Pool, Spiked Chain, sufficient AC that I'm only hit on 20s (~30 or so), Greater Fortifications, Boots of Steadfast, Crystalmask of Mindarmor, Ring of Freedom of Movement and if I'm allowed to pick feats, Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightement (Pride), Steadfast Determination and yeah.

Basically, I strive to make myself immune to as many things as possible that they can throw at me (I'm expecting an army to have at least low-level battlemages and some heavy artillery like Giants or such), wade in healing myself with each strike and cut swathes of destruction with Great Cleave, using enemies to prevent too efficient targeted volleys. Better DR would also be welcome, but I expect an army cannot afford magical weapons across the board, so DR/Magic is gonna actually do something.


That, or I play an Eternal Blade Archer and bombard the entire army into oblivion in a matter of seconds from a kilometer or two away.

Rasman
2010-01-08, 07:10 PM
Something which gives you a damaging aura, like the mantle of flame soulmeld.

Some Desert Wind manouvers, which are one of the few ways a martial character can deal area damage.

are there any elixers that would give that?

tahu88810
2010-01-08, 07:12 PM
Leadership and thus an army of my own.
Magic items for a nice lockdown
Knowledge of the area, so I can use choke points.
Cleave.
A decent lockdown build.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-08, 07:13 PM
Literally, kill yourself and reroll a caster. It's probably most effective.

Second most effective, if you can sneak, assassinate important people.

The larger the scale, the less any one melee character matters. It's pretty easy to make yourself more or less immune to damage from those much lower level than you, yes, but targetting is a problem. You can normally kill a few people every round.

Doing this, you'll wipe out, oh...probably a hundred or so people in the course of a battle. Presuming you fight on the front lines, and don't face anything too unusual or crazy.

Casters, on the other hand, entirely alter the course of battles as standard actions at high levels. Wall of fire? Yeah, that's a pretty severe issue for low level troops. They either need to go around and screw up their battle plan, or suffer enough damage to make them easy picking for friendly troops. Cloudkill....the symbols....illusions...wall of force. Yeah, the caster is more important than half a dozen melee types of equivalent level.

Rasman
2010-01-08, 07:17 PM
Literally, kill yourself and reroll a caster. It's probably most effective.

Second most effective, if you can sneak, assassinate important people.

The larger the scale, the less any one melee character matters. It's pretty easy to make yourself more or less immune to damage from those much lower level than you, yes, but targetting is a problem. You can normally kill a few people every round.

Doing this, you'll wipe out, oh...probably a hundred or so people in the course of a battle. Presuming you fight on the front lines, and don't face anything too unusual or crazy.

Casters, on the other hand, entirely alter the course of battles as standard actions at high levels. Wall of fire? Yeah, that's a pretty severe issue for low level troops. They either need to go around and screw up their battle plan, or suffer enough damage to make them easy picking for friendly troops. Cloudkill....the symbols....illusions...wall of force. Yeah, the caster is more important than half a dozen melee types of equivalent level.

...somehow, I fail to see where I asked what to do if I were a caster :smallannoyed:...I get that a Wizard has better battlefield control than a melee character. Punching something in the face is just more satisfying to me than throwing fireballs at masses of goblins.

I'm also looking for more in lines of equipment and items, rather than feats and builds.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-08, 07:21 PM
If feats and builds are not on the table, what feats and build do you have?

It's a bit hard to give advice regarding gear when we don't even know what level you are, or what available wealth you have.

Rasman
2010-01-08, 07:28 PM
If feats and builds are not on the table, what feats and build do you have?

It's a bit hard to give advice regarding gear when we don't even know what level you are, or what available wealth you have.

wealth isn't a huge issue, we have a king backing our army, so we can pretty much get anything we want

the general level of the part is 7-8, and when I say gear, I'm not really talking weapons, armor, etc.

I'm refering more in lines of Caltrops, Marbles, Bag of Boulders, Elixer of Flaming Hands, stuff in that direction of equipment. With applications like covering large areas of the battlefield with Oil and lighting it with a wand or a fireball spell, stuff like that.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-08, 07:32 PM
You don't want magical advice, because you prefer punching things in the face to throwing fire at masses of goblins....yet you're talking about using wands and fireball spells?

The most effective melee characters will be those that abuse UMD to pretend being a full caster. Look at the most broken things a wizard can do, and emulate that.

After all, once you're in the "limitless wealth and magical items" area, it's kinda silly to say "that's too magical"

Bibliomancer
2010-01-08, 07:37 PM
the general level of the part is 7-8, and when I say gear, I'm not really talking weapons, armor, etc.

What is the size of the army? At 8th level, you probably won't be able to defeat anything with more than 100 1st level warriors (unoptimized ones). Anything significantly higher will simply move around you.

Again, some context would be helpful. If you had, say, a very very very narrow gorge which was the only choke point, you might have some hope.

On a flat plain your only hope is to cover the area from miles in every direction* with caltrops, which probably isn't an option.

*As a circle from your current position. A simple line 20 squares thick could be defeated by building a bridge out of their dead bodies. They could do this in two places and bypass you.

Without context, (numbers, terrain, objectives) the only answer I can give you is that you're doomed.

JaronK
2010-01-08, 07:37 PM
Depends on your initial build. And use that money to hire some casters who can throw down Walls of Fire and similar.


JaronK

Prime32
2010-01-08, 07:43 PM
are there any elixers that would give that?There are magic items which grant manouvers, but IIRC you won't be able to use them as frequently as a real ToB class. And the reason I suggested manouvers in the first place was because they aren't magic - spells will still do more damage to wider areas.

The best way to fight an army is weather control since it affects a huge area - again, caster-only. Face it, "punch them one at a time" sucks as a strategy compared to "incinerate everyone in a wide area". Your higher damage output is meaningless when they die in one hit anyway.

One caster combo I'm fond of is Warmage/recaster increasing the radius of meteor swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm) to 80ft and then Widening it. Or as I like to call it (when Energy Substituted to cold), "Hraesvelgr" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR65jnIywFk#t=2m22s). :smallwink:

Johel
2010-01-08, 07:51 PM
Hum...

I may have something for you, indeed.
It depends on how much time we have and how much raw iron the King can supply before the battle and how many apprenctice blacksmiths (or anybody who isn't too clumsy) is available to work at the royal forges.

You'll also need :

Wings of Flying (for yourself)
People with at least a few ride skill ranks (even commoners can do)
Griffins, Pegasus, Hippogriff, Giant Owls (and any flying mounts you can get)
Lot's of bags of holdings.


Da Planz

As soon as possible, have the royal forges melt thousands of 2lb iron balls.
Put the balls into Bags of Holding, 125 balls per bag.
Fly above the enemy army, at an altitude of 1.400 feet, while it's in close formation or at least grouped.
Empty the bags.
20d6 damage for whoever is hit by a falling ball.
Keep doing that until the army flees.
Once the enemy is routed, have a good night of sleep.
Pack your sword and go hunting the fleeing soldiers.

Rasman
2010-01-08, 08:08 PM
Hum...

I may have something for you, indeed.
It depends on how much time we have and how much raw iron the King can supply before the battle and how many apprenctice blacksmiths (or anybody who isn't too clumsy) is available to work at the royal forges.

You'll also need :

Wings of Flying (for yourself)
People with at least a few ride skill ranks (even commoners can do)
Griffins, Pegasus, Hippogriff, Giant Owls (and any flying mounts you can get)
Lot's of bags of holdings.


Da Planz

As soon as possible, have the royal forges melt thousands of 2lb iron balls.
Put the balls into Bags of Holding, 125 balls per bag.
Fly above the enemy army, at an altitude of 1.400 feet, while it's in close formation or at least grouped.
Empty the bags.
20d6 damage for whoever is hit by a falling ball.
Keep doing that until the army flees.
Once the enemy is routed, have a good night of sleep.
Pack your sword and go hunting the fleeing soldiers.


now that's not a bad idea, but I'm not quite sure that our DM will allow it...I don't think it'd have to be that high though, because we're fighting an Army of Worg Riding Goblins, Hobgoblins, Kobalds with two Ogre Generals, one an Ogre Mage.

We're not really gonna have a lot of time to prepare the battlefield though, so I'm looking more to ways to control the battlefield, at least a small portion of it, with some simple items. Items that require UMD aren't out of the question, but it's not a class skill for me, so it'll probably blow up in my face...I tend to have bad luck when bad things are about to happen to me.

NEO|Phyte
2010-01-08, 08:20 PM
I'd bring a Bloodstorm Blade that has reached the capstone ability, and has as long-range of a thrown weapon as can be found. Bonus points for sneaking in 5 levels of War Mind so each attack hits 2 squares worth of army.

Signmaker
2010-01-08, 08:25 PM
I'd bring a Bloodstorm Blade that has reached the capstone ability, and has as long-range of a thrown weapon as can be found. Bonus points for sneaking in 5 levels of War Mind so each attack hits 2 squares worth of army.

Tack on Quicksheath, a Pandemonic Silver weapon, and a CL18 Control Winds spell. =P

Johel
2010-01-08, 08:28 PM
now that's not a bad idea, but I'm not quite sure that our DM will allow it...I don't think it'd have to be that high though, because we're fighting an Army of Worg Riding Goblins, Hobgoblins, Kobalds with two Ogre Generals, one an Ogre Mage.

We're not really gonna have a lot of time to prepare the battlefield though, so I'm looking more to ways to control the battlefield, at least a small portion of it, with some simple items. Items that require UMD aren't out of the question, but it's not a class skill for me, so it'll probably blow up in my face...I tend to have bad luck when bad things are about to happen to me.

Mmh... If there's not much time and one of your character is "creative" in his ideas, there's maybe a way. Not that your DM will like it but...

Barbed tape
The most basic of them require little skill, iron and time.
A two-man team can easily deploy a fence several dozen meters long.
You can easily deploy fences that, while deployed, will be 5-feet thick, 100 feet long and 5 feet tall.
That should make any worg hesitate before it makes its jump... Cavalry blocked, or at least slowed down.

Rasman
2010-01-08, 08:33 PM
Mmh... If there's not much time and one of your character is "creative" in his ideas, there's maybe a way. Not that your DM will like it but...

Barbed tape
The most basic of them require little skill, iron and time.
A two-man team can easily deploy a fence several dozen meters long.
You can easily deploy fences that, while deployed, will be 5-feet thick, 100 feet long and 5 feet tall.
That should make any worg hesitate before it makes its jump... Cavalry blocked, or at least slowed down.

I rememeber reading about something similar, but it was a trap that was like a spring that when activated, entangled the target and caused slashing damage and if you tried to get out of it forcefully, it just caused more, but it was something you could stretch like a rope to cover a large area.

ericgrau
2010-01-08, 08:40 PM
Great cleave, whirlwind attack, combat reflexes.

More attacks via TWF and/or haste may be good, since you don't need much damage and all your attacks are hitting anyway.

Agreed that some form of DR is nice. A little AC too. Making sure they hit only on a 20 and even then do minimal damage is nice. A tower shield is good for directional arrow immunity (see tower shield rules on how to gain total cover).

Eldariel
2010-01-08, 08:44 PM
A tower shield is good for directional arrow immunity.

You give up your attacks if you use Tower Shield for Total Cover. This includes AoOs, special attack actions and so on.

Also, why bother with Whirlwind Attack? Surely full attack with Great Cleave has high enough chances of wiping out everyone around you to make Whirlwind Attack not worth another 3 feats?

Critical
2010-01-08, 08:44 PM
Frenzied berserker can probably wipe out the whole army in one round, so definitely it :smallsmile:

dangerprawn
2010-01-08, 08:50 PM
Where is the battle being fought? What are the key terrain features, both those that will help you and those that will hinder you? How much is "not a lot of time"?

Here's some ideas, but we really need concrete answers to the terrain questions. That will help make or break this fight.

Concertina Wire. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concertina_wire) You want this. This is a basic no-magic battlefield control tactic, but it requires time to install and knowledge of the terrain. If the enemy troops are stuck on the ground you can funnel them or protect a vital area. Put the wire on top of a steep slope like these fellas (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3451/3388673939_413b6d5c78_o.jpg), and Calvary will have a hard time jumping over it.

In the game a number of things can serve this funciton. The various Wall spells, particularly Wall of Thorns. Or replicate the concertina wire itself.

Have the King throw down for some Major Creation to create barbed wire. A roll of concertina is about 4ft by 4ft and extended covers about 30-40 yards per roll (IIRC, military types check my numbers). Each casting should get you 3 rolls, following these approximations.

Battlefield Fortification, Sor/Wiz 4, Heroes of Battle. Get as many castings as you can.

If the terrain is not to your liking and the above spell isn't enough, try and swing getting Move Earth, from the PHB. That should let you set up the field roughly in your favor. Then stack your concertina wire on top of the berms from Battlefield Fortifcation. Form an alley to funnel the enemy troops in, and create Stone Shaped shelters for your archers and pikemen to attack them from the sides while the enemy dies in your guantlet.

Johel
2010-01-08, 08:52 PM
I rememeber reading about something similar, but it was a trap that was like a spring that when activated, entangled the target and caused slashing damage and if you tried to get out of it forcefully, it just caused more, but it was something you could stretch like a rope to cover a large area.

... Dang !!

Entangle.
It requires nearly no logistic and a wand of it shouldn't be too hard to come by. Each casting means a 80 ft line is blocked for the next minute. A given the range, you could easily cover a front of 800 feet per wand and hold it for about 5 minutes.
A wand cost about 750 gp

Web.
If you can take care of the logistic (that's it, find peasants willing to dig and set several poles every 20 ft along the battlefield), the "Web" spell is even better. With a single wand (and a fast horse), you should be able to cover a 2000 feet front for about 30 minutes.
A wand cost about 4.500 gp

EDIT :
@dangerprawn :
Wall of Thorns is even better, yes.
Although since it's a 5th level spell, that means no wand.
We are looking at a much more powerful kind of magic, therefor.

ericgrau
2010-01-08, 08:54 PM
You give up your attacks if you use Tower Shield for Total Cover. This includes AoOs, special attack actions and so on.
Attacking archers with a melee weapon tends to be a bit hard anyway. The point would be to advance, as you can still move. A bow could also work, especially at lower levels (and higher if he's a focused archer). So could AC, DR, etc. Up to him.


Also, why bother with Whirlwind Attack? Surely full attack with Great Cleave has high enough chances of wiping out everyone around you to make Whirlwind Attack not worth another 3 feats?
Unlike great cleave it lets you make attack all opponents at your full attack bonus regardless of whether or not the other attacks miss. Great cleave might let you do so and some attacks may not be at full AB. It also works well with a reach weapon or potion of enlarge person too. Though ya it is a bit feat intensive and not for, say, a low level barbarian.

Come to think of it, other potions will be nice too. This is likely to be a long fight so a couple rounds towards buffs may be worth it.

Demons_eye
2010-01-08, 08:58 PM
Get flying and a bag of nets, eat the penalty and rain them down on the enemy's, use Acid, Alchemist’s fire, Tanglefoot bags, and Thunderstone's, other things like marbles and cattledrops help.

Dogmantra
2010-01-08, 09:05 PM
EWP: Spiked Chain
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Whirlwind attack (and pre-requisites)
(Great) Cleave

May be suboptimal in normal games, but I don't think we're in a real game anymore, Toto.

Rasman
2010-01-08, 09:22 PM
Get flying and a bag of nets, eat the penalty and rain them down on the enemy's, use Acid, Alchemist’s fire, Tanglefoot bags, and Thunderstone's, other things like marbles and cattledrops help.

this is fundamentally the line of thinking I was looking for, the sad part is that our Magic Carpet escaped, so we don't have flight...aside from loading myself into a catapult...which I'm considering anyway...

I'm looking towards more, old school, low magic ideas, things like the Braveheart trope where they roll flaming logs or haybales down a hill at the enemy

As for what the battlefield looks like, I don't really know, thus why I'm looking for very general ideas, although it appears that most people haven't read any of the thread and are still throwing out build ideas...

The Glyphstone
2010-01-08, 09:28 PM
Are you being literal about the limitless wealth?

If so, get a Command-Word-Activated custom item of Wall of Stone/Iron at-will. Who cares what the battlefield looks like when you can literally rebuild the entirely to look like whatever you want?

Grommen
2010-01-08, 09:33 PM
...what do you, as an individual melee character, bring with you to make fighting these masses MUCH easier?

More friends.

Rasman
2010-01-08, 09:35 PM
Are you being literal about the limitless wealth?

If so, get a Command-Word-Activated custom item of Wall of Stone/Iron at-will. Who cares what the battlefield looks like when you can literally rebuild the entirely to look like whatever you want?

it's limitless within reason, it's not like we can say, "My King, we need 5 rings of wish" and have him snap his fingers and we get them

the particular king we have helping us is much like a Viking really, so Magic isnt' really what his people pride themselves on...I like the thought process, but I'm still leaning more in the direction of the last comment on the previous page

Grommen
2010-01-08, 09:45 PM
this is fundamentally the line of thinking I was looking for, the sad part is that our Magic Carpet escaped, so we don't have flight...aside from loading myself into a catapult...which I'm considering anyway...

I'm looking towards more, old school, low magic ideas, things like the Braveheart trope where they roll flaming logs or haybales down a hill at the enemy

As for what the battlefield looks like, I don't really know, thus why I'm looking for very general ideas, although it appears that most people haven't read any of the thread and are still throwing out build ideas...

Sorry for the previous post. I could not help myself.

Is their a chance that you can find a tribe of friendly Stone Giants around? They make really good field artillery, and they are highly mobile.

Eldariel
2010-01-08, 09:48 PM
Attacking archers with a melee weapon tends to be a bit hard anyway. The point would be to advance, as you can still move. A bow could also work, especially at lower levels (and higher if he's a focused archer). So could AC, DR, etc. Up to him.

Personal preference is to use opposing melee to block LoS so the archers can't target, preferably using items of teleport (Boots of Teleport or whatever) to close the distance between units if they're spread wide. Of course, that makes Enlarge Person slightly worse, but meh... And yeah, I agree that Tower Shield is definitely worth carrying around, I'm just not sure how much the Total Cover-option would be used in the end.


Unlike great cleave it lets you make attack all opponents at your full attack bonus regardless of whether or not the other attacks miss. Great cleave might let you do so and some attacks may not be at full AB. It also works well with a reach weapon or potion of enlarge person too. Though ya it is a bit feat intensive and not for, say, a low level barbarian.

I don't think one can afford the feats, especially if you're supposed to be respectable in normal combat too. Even for a Fighter, 3 feat is 6 levels worth of class features. Besides, if a Fighter is fighting standard Men-At-Arms with AC maybe in the 20s, I'd expect even the -10 attacks are 1-or-hit.

At that point, I feel the 3 feats are better used to either generate some manner of charge capability to take down tough singular creatures in the army, or to generate some manner of Fast Healing or more To Hit (to facilitate even -10s hitting) or something of the sort.


Come to think of it, other potions will be nice too. This is likely to be a long fight so a couple rounds towards buffs may be worth it.

Hmm, what'd you have in mind? Some long duration buffs if you're expected to kill an entire army, and ones that don't have a cap; Pro Arrows, Stoneskin and the like are kinda killed by the fact that they only block couple of hundred points of damage, and I don't see too useful hour/level abilities available as Potions.

A huge stack of Haste Potions could potentially be worthwhile if one is really rich tho. Well, Oil of Greater Magic Weapon +5 could be very useful, just for the above, and quite affordable (way more so than actual +5 weapons)... Heroism is another potential option for Saves-bonus and all that.

Rasman
2010-01-08, 09:50 PM
More friends.

eh...we have that to an extent actually, every king has to have an army, right?

numbers isn't really an issue, I'm just trying to get a rough idea of how to be a more effect melee combatant when fighting masses of baddies


Sorry for the previous post. I could not help myself.

Is their a chance that you can find a tribe of friendly Stone Giants around? They make really good field artillery, and they are highly mobile.

eh...Giants are kind of a bad idea at the moment...the only giants in the area are frost giants and we KINDA helped kill their king in order to help the king that is currently helping us

Zaq
2010-01-08, 10:40 PM
Get a wand (or a few scrolls) of Protégé, a Bard spell that can be found in the Spell Compendium (and elsewhere too, I'm sure... probably Complete Adventurer, if I had to guess). It can turn people into Bards for a while. Bards are... very useful when it comes to fights with armies of mooks. Sure, it'll only be about a +1 or +2 Inspire Courage (more if you say that you can use Inspirational Boost and/or the Badge of Valor to increase Protégé-granted IC...), but it's way more than you'll bring to the field as any melee character.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-08, 10:46 PM
now that's not a bad idea, but I'm not quite sure that our DM will allow it...I don't think it'd have to be that high though, because we're fighting an Army of Worg Riding Goblins, Hobgoblins, Kobalds with two Ogre Generals, one an Ogre Mage.

Well, there you go. Sneak into the camp and assassinate the generals and the mage in advance.

Nothing helps like getting rid of their leadership in advance.

Optimystik
2010-01-08, 10:46 PM
You don't want magical advice, because you prefer punching things in the face to throwing fire at masses of goblins....yet you're talking about using wands and fireball spells?

This had me ":smallconfused:" as well.

Anyway, I'd be a Hulking Hurler, and just outthrow the siege engines. (Or even better, throw the siege engines.)

Aldizog
2010-01-08, 10:59 PM
Choose the battlefield. That is how smaller armies defeat larger ones (as at Tours and Stirling) or at least look good while losing (Thermopylae). Even Vikings do this (Stamford Bridge). Perhaps use sniping and skirmishing to lure the enemy where you want them to go; focus all attacks on enemy casters. If you take one down, keep shooting its corpse -- you don't want it to be just in negatives.

Don't ask the DM "Where is the battle going to be?" -- ask him "Does anything nearby resemble a mountain pass, a bridge, or a narrow field between a forest and a river?

Actual equipment suggestions can be useful, but your comment "We don't know what the battlefield looks like" is a much, much bigger problem than any deficiency in gear or feats. Choose the battlefield.

Soranar
2010-01-08, 11:11 PM
how insane is your characer?

flying mounts + the skills to ride them aren't always available

The last time I can remember fighting an army of mooks, I had a potion to enlarge myself 2 sizes and I had the army catapult me in the middle of the opposing army.

I was a frenzied berserker mind, wielding a spiked chain. I also had our mage and our cleric buff me with every possible defensive spell they had and I took potions/magic items to cover the rest.

btw being immune to fatigue really helped

Anyway, after 3 or 4 rounds of killing everything in reach (30 ft) I had to try and chase them down since the mooks had started to run away and despite having several boosts to my speed my killing spree was greatly reduced at that point but I still managed to kill around 700 of them. (2 on my landing)

As much fun as it sounds the battle was a chore, just kept rolling the dice (we multiplied each result to shorten it) and even with improved power attack I had to use 2 attacks on half the mooks so it was really confusing to execute. It was a mixed army too so some minions had DR to overcome, others didn't, different ACs, some had to roll will saves to see if they cut an ran

really not a fun idea for a DM usually, just saying

the wizard and the cleric kept flying around blasting everything in sight (often trying to herd them towards me with fear spells) and by the time the day was over the higher CR critters showed up

their spells were depleted and most of my effects were gone and if it weren't for the rogue we'd have died (just a warning)

he (the rogue) really had no fun for most of the fight though

Coidzor
2010-01-08, 11:35 PM
Some kind of mass demoralize could definitely **** up the ability of an enemy to maintain a battle-line, or at least punch a hole through their main battle-line.

Or eradicate their most hardened point or elite cadre of units or force them to commit their reserves to taking on the larger than life swath of death through their forces.

The charge, cleave+move, cleave+move build plus the mass demoralize is probably the most effective influence a single meleer can have on the course of a battlefield as the one man himself.

As more of a leadership type... *shrug* I imagine something along the lines of a marshall who bolsters his battleline while taking out the heavies and maybe mass demoralizing without leaving his peeps behind.

JaronK
2010-01-08, 11:35 PM
What resources do you have for recruiting your own army? Can you pick races, classes, and so on? I designed a first level army at one point that would be a serious threat, but it doesn't sound like you actually build your own in time.

JaronK

Tyndmyr
2010-01-08, 11:40 PM
As much fun as it sounds the battle was a chore, just kept rolling the dice (we multiplied each result to shorten it) and even with improved power attack I had to use 2 attacks on half the mooks so it was really confusing to execute. It was a mixed army too so some minions had DR to overcome, others didn't, different ACs, some had to roll will saves to see if they cut an ran

really not a fun idea for a DM usually, just saying

This is true. I've tried the whole "PCs in a battlefield thing", and it is...difficult to pull off right. It really is better to use them as an elite strike force nailing specific targets and strategic objectives than it is to use them to just rack up a body count. This is ESPECIALLY true for melee types, who end up getting very repetitive combat compared to magical classes.

dangerprawn
2010-01-09, 12:07 AM
numbers isn't really an issue, I'm just trying to get a rough idea of how to be a more effect melee combatant when fighting masses of baddies

One of the issues here is that melee guys that excel at fighting hordes of enemies are usually built that way. Can't change your characters classes and feats before the fight, so the next step is how to mitigate not being able to be the best horde fighter.

I can think of two ways to deal with the issue, both of which have been discussed here. Is there a way you can learn what the battlefield will be? I know you've said that you don't really know, but do you know for example if it's a named place, like the Death Gorge or the Empty Plains? If you have magical support to Scry those locations, you could determine what the layout is.

- Battlefield/Terrain Control or Management
- Magical Support

These really go in hand together, though there are specific tactics that are primarily one or the other.

Terrain

Choose the battlefield. That is how smaller armies defeat larger ones (as at Tours and Stirling) or at least look good while losing (Thermopylae). Even Vikings do this (Stamford Bridge). Perhaps use sniping and skirmishing to lure the enemy where you want them to go; focus all attacks on enemy casters. If you take one down, keep shooting its corpse -- you don't want it to be just in negatives.

Don't ask the DM "Where is the battle going to be?" -- ask him "Does anything nearby resemble a mountain pass, a bridge, or a narrow field between a forest and a river?

Actual equipment suggestions can be useful, but your comment "We don't know what the battlefield looks like" is a much, much bigger problem than any deficiency in gear or feats. Choose the battlefield.

Magical Support

Get a wand (or a few scrolls) of Protégé, a Bard spell that can be found in the Spell Compendium (and elsewhere too, I'm sure... probably Complete Adventurer, if I had to guess). It can turn people into Bards for a while. Bards are... very useful when it comes to fights with armies of mooks. Sure, it'll only be about a +1 or +2 Inspire Courage (more if you say that you can use Inspirational Boost and/or the Badge of Valor to increase Protégé-granted IC...), but it's way more than you'll bring to the field as any melee character.

Magical Support

A huge stack of Haste Potions could potentially be worthwhile if one is really rich tho. Well, Oil of Greater Magic Weapon +5 could be very useful, just for the above, and quite affordable (way more so than actual +5 weapons)... Heroism is another potential option for Saves-bonus and all that.

Terrain/Magical Support

Entangle.
It requires nearly no logistic and a wand of it shouldn't be too hard to come by. Each casting means a 80 ft line is blocked for the next minute. A given the range, you could easily cover a front of 800 feet per wand and hold it for about 5 minutes.
A wand cost about 750 gp

Web.
If you can take care of the logistic (that's it, find peasants willing to dig and set several poles every 20 ft along the battlefield), the "Web" spell is even better. With a single wand (and a fast horse), you should be able to cover a 2000 feet front for about 30 minutes.
A wand cost about 4.500 gp

Even with just Entangle and Web wands you can do a lot.

You mentioned mundane Braveheart things...

- There are 366 US pints in a barrel of Oil, so that would cost 36.6gp a barrel. My math-fu is not strong enough to determine how much of an area that would cover.
- Area Denial Weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_denial_weapons) (caltrops, punji sticks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punji_stick), Exploding Spikes (MIC 160))
- Defensive fortifications that hurt. Remember in 13th warrior when they cut all those trees to make giant spikes? Do that if you can.
- Don't forget the power of the almighty hole in the ground. Dig it deep enough, about 6 or 8 feet in the ground, at least that much wide.

...

Man, I really want to plan and fight this battle. I'd destroy these guys. :smallsmile:

Lysander
2010-01-09, 12:15 AM
Remember that you're not just fighting an army, you're fighting an army of a few specific types of creatures. Plan for the particular strengths and weaknesses of each race you're fighting.

Since you're fighting kobolds in part, and they're dazzled in sunlight, I recommend you try to time your attack for mid-day. If you can't attack during the day, Daylight oil is pricey (750gp) but maybe worth it on something you carry if you're not footing the bill. Being dazzled is a tiny penalty per unit but since it applies to every kobold within 60ft that attacks you the benefit can add up. Plus, it's crucial not to fight in darkness. They all have darkvision, your side doesn't. A bright light is a good idea.

Another thing about kobolds. They all have trapmaking as a racial skill. If your DM remembers that be wary of them luring you into one.

Now for that ogre mage. He has a lot of really nasty at-will and 1/day magic powers. How are you going to deal with a flying invisible spellcaster? Plus he has regeneration against everything but acid and fire. I highly recommend picking up a lot of alchemist fire and trying to peg him with it. That'll deal lethal damage, plus if he's burning you'll be able to see the light from the fire even if he turns invisible. This is the kind of guy you need to strike quickly and with overwhelming force or he'll assume gaseous form and escape if cornered.

Can you recruit any dwarven allies or mercenaries? Or play one yourself? Their bonus against goblins and giants would be really handy for a fight like this.

deuxhero
2010-01-09, 12:19 AM
I see if I can somehow make it rain (an incantation from UA prehaps?) to hurt their morale, coordination and ranged attacks

Rasman
2010-01-09, 12:55 AM
Remember that you're not just fighting an army, you're fighting an army of a few specific types of creatures. Plan for the particular strengths and weaknesses of each race you're fighting.

Since you're fighting kobolds in part, and they're dazzled in sunlight, I recommend you try to time your attack for mid-day. If you can't attack during the day, Daylight oil is pricey (750gp) but maybe worth it on something you carry if you're not footing the bill. Being dazzled is a tiny penalty per unit but since it applies to every kobold within 60ft that attacks you the benefit can add up. Plus, it's crucial not to fight in darkness. They all have darkvision, your side doesn't. A bright light is a good idea.

Another thing about kobolds. They all have trapmaking as a racial skill. If your DM remembers that be wary of them luring you into one.

Now for that ogre mage. He has a lot of really nasty at-will and 1/day magic powers. How are you going to deal with a flying invisible spellcaster? Plus he has regeneration against everything but acid and fire. I highly recommend picking up a lot of alchemist fire and trying to peg him with it. That'll deal lethal damage, plus if he's burning you'll be able to see the light from the fire even if he turns invisible. This is the kind of guy you need to strike quickly and with overwhelming force or he'll assume gaseous form and escape if cornered.

Can you recruit any dwarven allies or mercenaries? Or play one yourself? Their bonus against goblins and giants would be really handy for a fight like this.

well, our Ranger is the Giant Bane (Giants are his favored enemy AND for the kobalds he has Sunburst Arrows, he makes both of them cry) but the alchemists fire is a good suggestion.

As for the army, we don't really get to pick and choose what they are because they're being provided for us, this is going to be a relatively low magic battle, aside from the Ogremage. Speaking of the Ogremage, any general idea of an AC and Fort saves or where in the Monster Manual I'd find a mock up of one?


One of the issues here is that melee guys that excel at fighting hordes of enemies are usually built that way. Can't change your characters classes and feats before the fight, so the next step is how to mitigate not being able to be the best horde fighter.

I can think of two ways to deal with the issue, both of which have been discussed here. Is there a way you can learn what the battlefield will be? I know you've said that you don't really know, but do you know for example if it's a named place, like the Death Gorge or the Empty Plains? If you have magical support to Scry those locations, you could determine what the layout is.

- Battlefield/Terrain Control or Management
- Magical Support

These really go in hand together, though there are specific tactics that are primarily one or the other.

Terrain


Magical Support


Magical Support


Terrain/Magical Support


Even with just Entangle and Web wands you can do a lot.

You mentioned mundane Braveheart things...

- There are 366 US pints in a barrel of Oil, so that would cost 36.6gp a barrel. My math-fu is not strong enough to determine how much of an area that would cover.
- Area Denial Weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_denial_weapons) (caltrops, punji sticks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punji_stick), Exploding Spikes (MIC 160))
- Defensive fortifications that hurt. Remember in 13th warrior when they cut all those trees to make giant spikes? Do that if you can.
- Don't forget the power of the almighty hole in the ground. Dig it deep enough, about 6 or 8 feet in the ground, at least that much wide.

...

Man, I really want to plan and fight this battle. I'd destroy these guys. :smallsmile:

lol...I want you on my side

frankly, if we had more time, I could make this battlefield almost unapproachable...bottlenecks covered in grease or oil with archers ready to fire flaming arrows, pillboxes with repeating crossbow archers in them, catapults launching the goblin's dead bodies back at them, Gandalf charging down a mountain...err...scratch that last part...

at the vary least, I'll be holding on to some brace weapons, Goblinkabobs are in this time of year

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-09, 01:03 AM
Wands of Summon Monster 4.

They last for 7 rounds each (will likely only last 1 round each, due to archery).

Activate, and summon a Yeth Hound. Have it fly over enemy army and use its Bay ability. Everything within 300 feet of it must make a Will save (low DC) or be panicked for 2-8 rounds. Even level 1 soldiers with 10 Wisdom will have a 50% pass chance. But that's a LOT of saves, and you've likely thrown the enemy army into total disarray. Enough disarray, and the hound may survive for a second round, even.

Will make it much easier to cut down enemies. Just resummon one every 3-5 rounds.

If you can, get a wand of invisibility as well (provided you have another character that can assist). This will let you stay undetected while you summon, or even better, will allow invisible hounds to get in position.

This idea has synergy if you are immune to fear, or have a will save of +9 or better. I recommend attempting to attain one or the other, via item (scroll of Polymorph/wand of the same can do immunity to fear, Cloak of Resistance or casting of Superior Resistance can do the latter). Alternately, if you can deafen yourself (casting of deafness, or silence), you can render yourself immune.

Bottom line, force amplification is your friend. Anything that gets more targets for the enemy, or reduces the enemy's ability to effectively field their forces, will help you.

herrhauptmann
2010-01-09, 01:07 AM
eh...we have that to an extent actually, every king has to have an army, right?

numbers isn't really an issue, I'm just trying to get a rough idea of how to be a more effect melee combatant when fighting masses of baddies



eh...Giants are kind of a bad idea at the moment...the only giants in the area are frost giants and we KINDA helped kill their king in order to help the king that is currently helping us

I may have missed a post somewhere, but did you say what your build is, and what your party has? I think you mentioned 8th level or so... What else, relatively low magic because you're with vikings. For spells, look at what say a 6-7th level adept or shaman can cast. That might be your limit for casting.

deuxhero: Morale won't drop the instant it starts to rain. It'd take several days of slogging through the mud to really have an effect. And by then, it'd probably be hurting the OP's army more. Afterall, most monster races tend to live in their own filth, while the 'playable' races are usually clean, literate, with all their teeth (at least as depicted in most D&D adventures and novels).

-Lines of pits with stakes in them are a nonmagical way of funneling enemy troops where you want them.
-Look into gaining battlefield artillery. Ballistas, mangonels, etc. In historical sieges, the siegers would often launch rotting animals into a castle or city, trying to make the sieged sick. Perhaps you could do something to taint their water supplies a few days before.
-If you have an entrenched position, get high ground, make the enemies come up a steep slope (slower movement rates). Once they're close, poor oil down upon them. Now they need balance checks to stay on their feet or they fall and roll downhill. Next light the oil on fire. Nonmagical fire doesn't do much damage, but it's enough to take out kobolds, goblins, regular orcs, and even make an ogre think twice if he's gotta go a good distance through it.
-The ogre (not ogre mage) should be killable using massed archery. Most giants don't have especially good AC, so they're sorta vulnerable to something like that. Regular ogre is only a CR 3 afterall.
-Initiate the fight by taking out one of the enemy leaders.
-This obviously isn't Tippyverse, so use some low level illusion magics to help distract the enemies. Ex: Kobolds attack, vikings gave way and pretend to rout. As kobolds pursue, from out of the forest ( a decent distance away), comes an illusion of a flanking unit of cavalry or berserkers or something. Kobolds aren't dumb, so they'll give up the pursuit to turn and face the new threat (it's preferable to getting run down). And it's doubtful most of them will make their will save (and you should get a bonus for them being distracted, or circumstances for it being believable). As they turn to face the new enemy, your fleeing soldiers turn around and smash into the kobolds. A good chunk of kobolds should still be caught facing the wrong way (flatfooted), so your men should do well in their charge.
-Do you have access to any mounted chargers? They can cut a line through their enemies with the right feats and sufficient room. Far better than great cleaving a square that's 15 feet on a side all along your front line. However, someone with reach (human with enlarge potion), and a spiked chain, can do very well going through a mass of kobolds or something similar. He'd have 20ft reach (4 squares). Technically that's a box 10 squares across (50ft), minus the 4 squares he'd be standing in. Now great cleave becomes a viable feat.

Dimers
2010-01-09, 01:10 AM
Obviously, spells and spell-effect items (boots of haste or what-have-you) can be enormously valuable for your melee character. Any buff you find useful, find a way to get it. Don't forget to check the psionics books if they're allowed in the campaign.

For reshaping terrain, try feather token (tree) or any competent musician with a lyre of building ... even a folding ship, to just plain get in the way at a chokepoint. (Daern's instant fortress would probably cost a bit much, though.) Figure out some way to block LOS, such as fires made with green wood or bad-quality charcoal, an eversmoking bottle, wands of fog, that sort of thing. If the enemy has clouds too, you can clear them out with a feather token (fan). For extra allies when you need them most, use figurines of wondrous power, a bag of tricks, a horn of valhalla, or feather tokens (whips). Break up enemy formations by throwing cabers at them. Have your catapults throw red-hot sand instead of boulders to get AoE. Mess with enemies' minds using Intimidate skill tricks -- you'll have to ask your DM what'll work for this scenario -- or applying a hat of disguise to look like an enemy.

Carry extra weapons. Unless you're naturally armed to begin with, you could easily end up disarmed.

Oh, and if you're playing a realistic scenario, you'll need some form of reliable communication with headquarters. Flags, whispering wind spells, whatever.

Rasman
2010-01-09, 01:34 AM
build wise, our party consists of a Fighter, Monk (me), 3 Rogues (I wish I knew why...) a Ranger and a Wizard.
We've got a LOT of Sneaky Sneaky, so that won't be much of an issue in terms of eliminating generals, although the rogues are kinda cowards, but nothing compared to the ranger. Fighter is very much the "Smash first, ask questions after it's dead" type, so I foresee him charging into the middle of the battle to make the army piss itself. The wizard is very much the "I dare you to touch me" type to the point that it's sad/scary. He loves his wall spells and is in his first level of 7 Fold Veil, so battlefield control in that aspect is his specialty. I'm not particularly sure what I'm going to be doing. I'm more of a "I'll take the big one" type since my grapple and stuns are my best areas, atm. Grappling seems like a bad idea at this point though, unless I get into an isolated fight or something.

the choke points probably won't be too hard to set up, we have some left over wood spikes from our session before last that we were ORIGINALLY going to use as Tree Arrows, sadly we never got any use out of them. The worgs are my only real concern at the moment because they're almost smarter than the goblins riding them.

Oil won't be much of a problem either, as a play, we get anything that costs 1gp or less per unit for free, so we'll have LOTS of oil.

Here's a question though, is a summoned Eagle smart/strong enough to drop a flask of oil and/or a lit torch on an enemy?

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-09, 01:38 AM
build wise, our party consists of a Fighter, Monk (me), 3 Rogues (I wish I knew why...) a Ranger and a Wizard.
We've got a LOT of Sneaky Sneaky, so that won't be much of an issue in terms of eliminating generals, although the rogues are kinda cowards, but nothing compared to the ranger. Fighter is very much the "Smash first, ask questions after it's dead" type, so I foresee him charging into the middle of the battle to make the army piss itself. The wizard is very much the "I dare you to touch me" type to the point that it's sad/scary. He loves his wall spells and is in his first level of 7 Fold Veil, so battlefield control in that aspect is his specialty. I'm not particularly sure what I'm going to be doing. I'm more of a "I'll take the big one" type since my grapple and stuns are my best areas, atm. Grappling seems like a bad idea at this point though, unless I get into an isolated fight or something.

the choke points probably won't be too hard to set up, we have some left over wood spikes from our session before last that we were ORIGINALLY going to use as Tree Arrows, sadly we never got any use out of them. The worgs are my only real concern at the moment because they're almost smarter than the goblins riding them.

Oil won't be much of a problem either, as a play, we get anything that costs 1gp or less per unit for free, so we'll have LOTS of oil.

Here's a question though, is a summoned Eagle smart/strong enough to drop a flask of oil and/or a lit torch on an enemy?

A flask of oil? You're thinking small potatoes. Telling you, don't use eagles, use yeth hounds.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-09, 01:41 AM
The wizard is very much the "I dare you to touch me" type to the point that it's sad/scary. He loves his wall spells and is in his first level of 7 Fold Veil, so battlefield control in that aspect is his specialty.

Oh dear god, he's going to rack up kills. The red veil is quite sufficient to destroy kobolds. Get them in a choke point, and this will literally solve the problem.

Just have the wizard wall in their rear, put a red veil in front, and start having fun. Trap them all for the slaughter.

Forget the mundane items and the defensive army, just start calculating the wealth and xp for killing an army by yourselves.

Rasman
2010-01-09, 01:42 AM
A flask of oil? You're thinking small potatoes. Telling you, don't use eagles, use yeth hounds.

lol...just an idea the wizard brought up, he's amused by an army of eagles

EAGLES FOR EVERYONE!!!


Oh dear god, he's going to rack up kills. The red veil is quite sufficient to destroy kobolds. Get them in a choke point, and this will literally solve the problem.

Just have the wizard wall in their rear, put a red veil in front, and start having fun. Trap them all for the slaughter.

Forget the mundane items and the defensive army, just start calculating the wealth and xp for killing an army by yourselves.

lol...I was joking with him that we should just grow me as big as we could and I'd just Bull Rush the army into his walls. He picked up the Energy Resist buff as well, so I'd take pretty much no damage from it if I somehow ran into one.

Aldizog
2010-01-09, 01:43 AM
Speaking of the Ogremage, any general idea of an AC and Fort saves or where in the Monster Manual I'd find a mock up of one?

Seriously, don't do that. It's rude to the DM and it's just begging for him to alter its stats. And maybe he's already done that, who knows? Any information you know about the creature should be gained by Knowledge checks.

Rasman
2010-01-09, 01:47 AM
Seriously, don't do that. It's rude to the DM and it's just begging for him to alter its stats. And maybe he's already done that, who knows? Any information you know about the creature should be gained by Knowledge checks.

eh, the people I play with are kinda elitist when it comes to what they know...especially the DM...and I pretty much just started playing, so I need to know what I can in advance...I mean, I pretty much got laughed at for trying to use Stunning Fist on a frost giant, so I'll take what I can get at this point, THUS why I ask so many dumb questions on here

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-09, 01:51 AM
eh, the people I play with are kinda elitist when it comes to what they know...especially the DM...and I pretty much just started playing, so I need to know what I can in advance...I mean, I pretty much got laughed at for trying to use Stunning Fist on a frost giant, so I'll take what I can get at this point, THUS why I ask so many dumb questions on here

Rule of thumb for big and dumb: Don't target Fortitude saves.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-09, 01:52 AM
eh, the people I play with are kinda elitist when it comes to what they know...especially the DM...and I pretty much just started playing, so I need to know what I can in advance...I mean, I pretty much got laughed at for trying to use Stunning Fist on a frost giant, so I'll take what I can get at this point, THUS why I ask so many dumb questions on here

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogreMage.htm) is your friend.

Yeah, I play with one similarly high optimization group...btw, the ogre mage is definitely over CRed, so consider him more or less free xp. They get a decent alpha strike via invisibility and cone of cold....but you have a caster, and that's literally all the ogre mage really has.

So, see invisibility, and life's great.

Aldizog
2010-01-09, 01:52 AM
eh, the people I play with are kinda elitist when it comes to what they know...especially the DM...and I pretty much just started playing, so I need to know what I can in advance...I mean, I pretty much got laughed at for trying to use Stunning Fist on a frost giant, so I'll take what I can get at this point, THUS why I ask so many dumb questions on here
Well, ask in character. Have your monk ask the ranger "Okay, you're the expert on fighting giants, what do you know about Ogre Magi?"

Your character shouldn't know things like Fort saves. Sure, a frost giant looks big and tough and maybe you might intuit that it would be hard to stun, but then again there are giant-looking things that are actually relatively easy to stun, because they happen to be aberrations or monstrous humanoids. Your PC shouldn't know these strengths and weaknesses unless he has the proper Knowledge skills.

Kiren
2010-01-09, 01:52 AM
I prepared my list from Unforgotten realms:

A dagger, a hammer, a saber, a axe, a candlestick, a short sword, a long sword, a bastard sword, a great sword, a cross, the letter T and a M72 Anti-Tank Rocket Launcher.

Kallisti
2010-01-09, 01:52 AM
Get lots and lots and lots and lots of low-level adepts with wands of fireball. Even two or three well-protected casters with wands of fireball can take out a huge chunk of an enemy army. Get similar wands for your rogues, if they have Use Magic Device.

Also, good call on the Yeth hounds to whoever's idea that was.

What else...pits full of punji spikes is a good idea. Easier to get than caltrops, and it'll make life a lot more interesting for the Worg cavalry.

Whoever said to choose the battlefield yourself has hit the most critical part of planning for a big battle like this.

I'd advise the PCs themselves not to go near the front lines. As Hinjo (I think) pointed out during the siege of Azure City, even if the mooks need a nat 20 to hit you and you can survive many, many hits, you'll be overwhelmed eventually. Do as everyone's been advising and go assassinate their leaders. Get invisibility and silence on scrolls for the non-stealthy party members.

dangerprawn
2010-01-09, 01:57 AM
Sidebar: For an interesting look at creating a beatstick to fight the hordes, watch this guy kill some kobolds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135924).

Rasman
2010-01-09, 02:01 AM
Rule of thumb for big and dumb: Don't target Fortitude saves.

lol...yeah, I figured that out the hard way...Giant Axes are Giant...


The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogreMage.htm) is your friend.

Yeah, I play with one similarly high optimization group...btw, the ogre mage is definitely over CRed, so consider him more or less free xp. They get a decent alpha strike via invisibility and cone of cold....but you have a caster, and that's literally all the ogre mage really has.

So, see invisibility, and life's great.

that it is, I didn't actually think that would be on the SRD though, so I kinda wrote off looking at it...we can't seem to fight anything that isn't big and dumb though...

it's not that they're high optimization, because this session is pretty lax, they're just kinda...snobby, for lack of a better term, when you make a mistake...it's annoying, but it keeps to a tolerable level

I should really just take it as common knowledge that big things don't like fire at this point...

Tyndmyr
2010-01-09, 02:02 AM
I'd advise the PCs themselves not to go near the front lines. As Hinjo (I think) pointed out during the siege of Azure City, even if the mooks need a nat 20 to hit you and you can survive many, many hits, you'll be overwhelmed eventually. Do as everyone's been advising and go assassinate their leaders. Get invisibility and silence on scrolls for the non-stealthy party members.

If I were talking to Hinjo, I would have chuckled and replied "Protection from Arrows".

Tyndmyr
2010-01-09, 02:04 AM
Sidebar: For an interesting look at creating a beatstick to fight the hordes, watch this guy kill some kobolds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135924).

This is hysterical. Yeah, I can easily make a variety of builds that could literally kill an infinite number of kobolds.

That test would be hilarious. If anyone decides to run the whole "one man vs an army of mooks" thing again, I will gladly participate.

Coidzor
2010-01-09, 02:04 AM
Wands of Summon Monster 4.

They last for 7 rounds each (will likely only last 1 round each, due to archery).

Activate, and summon a Yeth Hound. Have it fly over enemy army and use its Bay ability. Everything within 300 feet of it must make a Will save (low DC) or be panicked for 2-8 rounds. Even level 1 soldiers with 10 Wisdom will have a 50% pass chance. But that's a LOT of saves, and you've likely thrown the enemy army into total disarray. Enough disarray, and the hound may survive for a second round, even.

Yes. That's great. Pretty much a better version of my crude flailing.

Rasman
2010-01-09, 02:11 AM
Sidebar: For an interesting look at creating a beatstick to fight the hordes, watch this guy kill some kobolds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135924).

that is a LOT of rolling...I'd like to see someone do it without the free heals though, or cleave...THAT would be a challenge

I also like the Yeth Hound thing, BUT, my DM would probably pop a blood vessel from having to roll that much, it would be worth watching him turn funny colors though...it's almost as good as getting frightning presense

Tyndmyr
2010-01-09, 02:13 AM
I would gladly accept that challenge. At level one. Cleave is only one way of causing an endless wave of death.

Rasman
2010-01-09, 02:16 AM
I would gladly accept that challenge. At level one. Cleave is only one way of causing an endless wave of death.

speaking of cleave, would picking up a spiked chain, even if I'm not proficient with it, be worth it for this battle considering I'll be getting lots of AoOs OR should I use a Range weapon that I'm proficient with?

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-09, 02:24 AM
that is a LOT of rolling...I'd like to see someone do it without the free heals though, or cleave...THAT would be a challenge

I also like the Yeth Hound thing, BUT, my DM would probably pop a blood vessel from having to roll that much, it would be worth watching him turn funny colors though...it's almost as good as getting frightning presense

Better. Range is huge. That said, there are ways to effectively handle it.

Whatever the odds are, that % passes, that % fails.

Eldariel
2010-01-09, 02:28 AM
This is hysterical. Yeah, I can easily make a variety of builds that could literally kill an infinite number of kobolds.

That test would be hilarious. If anyone decides to run the whole "one man vs an army of mooks" thing again, I will gladly participate.

Now I sorta wanna test how many I could deal with with a level 1 character. I ran out of feats in the theoretical build though. Then I built one for level 3 and noticed that Great Cleave + Combat Reflexes + Kusari-Gama Prof + Extreme Steel Shield + Adamantine Body + Thick-Skinned + 18 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con means you can deal with a LOT of Kobolds.

Crusader 1/Fighter (Exoticist) 1/Cleric 1; mite as well toss Pride-domain in while at it. Need some save buffs tho. Though I guess being Warforged and thus immune to a ton kinda helps. And uhh...something else, I guess. Clerics are cool like that. Level 1 WBL is enough; all you need is a Kusari-Gama, Extreme Steel Shield and a silly hat. AC 22 is plenty and yeah, mite as well cast Enlarge Person on yourself as a Cleric and get to work. Sweep the board 4 times in a turn healing infi points to yourself, IUS to do the same with your fist as a secondary attack on your own turn and have fun.

Rasman
2010-01-09, 02:31 AM
Now I sorta wanna test how many I could deal with with a level 1 character. I ran out of feats in the theoretical build though. Then I built one for level 3 and noticed that Great Cleave + Combat Reflexes + Kusari-Gama Prof + Extreme Steel Shield + Adamantine Body + Thick-Skinned + 18 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con means you can deal with a LOT of Kobolds.

Crusader 1/Fighter (Exoticist) 1/Cleric 1; mite as well toss Pride-domain in while at it. Need some save buffs tho. Though I guess being Warforged and thus immune to a ton kinda helps. And uhh...something else, I guess. Clerics are cool like that. Level 1 WBL is enough; all you need is a Kusari-Gama, Extreme Steel Shield and a silly hat. AC 22 is plenty and yeah, mite as well cast Enlarge Person on yourself as a Cleric and get to work. Sweep the board 4 times in a turn healing infi points to yourself, IUS to do the same with your fist as a secondary attack on your own turn and have fun.

speaking of Kusari-Gama, someone told me they're considered Monk weapons at one point, is this true and what book can I find them in?

Tyndmyr
2010-01-09, 02:34 AM
Well, a standard kobold's damage maxes at 1d6-1. 5. So, if you're immune to crits(one feat as warforged) and have 5 DR, you are immortal. I believe you can pick up 3 DR, immunity to crits, and high AC with your standard level 1 feat and 2 flaws.

That's pretty close to immortality. Not perfect, but darned good, and before we even factor in class abilities.

75 xp per kobold...you only need to kill 12 to level the first time. It seems pretty easy to make a build that will level more rapidly than it takes damage, even without DR or gestalt.

I'd probably do a caster, just to make it a more interesting build.

Eldariel
2010-01-09, 02:36 AM
speaking of Kusari-Gama, someone told me they're considered Monk weapons at one point, is this true and what book can I find them in?

It says nothing about it being a Monk-weapon (it IS listed in the Asian Weapons-section, but none of them are Monk-weapons by default) and can be found on page 144 in the DMG.

EDIT: You can get DR 4/Adamantine and Crit Immunity. If you're a Crusader, that's close enough. Though to get high enough AC that they only hit on 20, you need to use a shield which means you can't have a reach weapon meaning it's slow killings. Especially since you lack Great Cleave and don't autohit.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-09, 02:41 AM
If you're immune to their damage, you don't need a high AC. =)

Knaight
2010-01-09, 02:48 AM
It isn't individual weapons you really need. Its large scale stuff. Razor or barbed wire is always fun, and has been covered, but this being D&D and all, trapping them in a gorge between two barriers(Pallisade on one side, controlled rock fall on the other, or two magic walls), after preparing a nice nest of dried grasses, then setting the entire thing ablaze is much more effective. Fire earned its place in warfare for a reason.

Even better would be if you have a canyon with a river in it. Trap them between a wall and a hastily constructed dam. Fire from above, and once enough water has built up, bow the dam. It is probably less effective, but then, you can do this after the fire, just to clean up the mess.

Eldariel
2010-01-09, 02:50 AM
If you're immune to their damage, you don't need a high AC. =)

At this point though, we're one point of DR short of full immunity; pestersome to say the least. Also, even if we could use a reach weapon, we couldn't use a chain :(

Tyndmyr
2010-01-09, 02:51 AM
At this point though, we're one point of DR short of full immunity; pestersome to say the least. Also, even if we could use a reach weapon, we couldn't use a chain :(

Eh, if you're a crusader, you'll gain hp far faster than they'll get max damage hits. Even if you use a weapon you aren't proficient in.

I really hope someone with more time runs with this, and sets up an infinitely long combat of some sort.

Eldariel
2010-01-09, 02:58 AM
Eh, if you're a crusader, you'll gain hp far faster than they'll get max damage hits. Even if you use a weapon you aren't proficient in.

I really hope someone with more time runs with this, and sets up an infinitely long combat of some sort.

Crusader's healing is directly tied to hitting, hence why I find proficiency so important. Kobold's 15 AC is nothing to laugh at on level 1; 18 Str Crusader has mere +5 to hit.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-09, 03:06 AM
True. I'd probably rely on Fiery Burst shenanigans for offense. Would decrease my defense, but I'd chew through them at a great rate.

Chemus
2010-01-09, 03:06 AM
Alas, Improved Fortification, the warforged feat for crit immunity, requires BAB +6. (I have a lonely warforged paladin who's probably going to take it...if he survives that long)

The healing+spiked chain/kusari-gama looks pretty good, though. That on top of the DR would win many a battle.

Biggest problem is with the little buggers using, say, trip or grapple with aid another. If even one has improved trip/grapple and hits your abysmal touch AC, the others can help him...no?

Tyndmyr
2010-01-09, 03:09 AM
Alas, Improved Fortification, the warforged feat for crit immunity, requires BAB +6. (I have a lonely warforged paladin who's probably going to take it...if he survives that long)

Good point. Better off going with more DR then. Or something else. DR 5 and light fortification is still a pretty good deal.


Biggest problem is with the little buggers using, say, trip or grapple with aid another. If even one has improved trip/grapple and hits your abysmal touch AC, the others can help him...no?

Well, they have to be in melee to help him via aid another. And alive.

If you ready actions, this risk can be managed pretty well. Likewise, you can probably limit the amount of them next to you via terrain...or backing up against a wall of dead kobolds.

Eldariel
2010-01-09, 03:11 AM
Yeah, if we make the Kobolds smart, pain is to occur. There's simply the option of piling on you once they drag you down until the pile is heavy enough to kill you, for one. Which is why killing the bunch around you each round sounds appealing.

It's worth noting though, even if they trip you or w/e, they can't damage you given crit immunity. Without it though, spears are x3 crit weapons so we're looking at a maximum of 17 points to the face...


And yeah, one thing they could do (and indeed, could've done in the example fight) is to use readied Aid Another for AC to ensure that the Crusader's healing strikes miss and the kobolds don't die and then...pile-up until the guy can't move and then pile-up until the pile crushes the guy underneath. I'm sure there are rules for what damage certain amount of weight over you does. Perhaps in the cave-ins section or something?

In the example fight, I would've simply had the Kobold hordes Aid Another Grapple. Cuts out weapons, Whirlwind Attack, most methods of healing and so on. If you can achieve DR 17/-, I think you can't lose tho.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-09, 03:15 AM
And yeah, one thing they could do (and indeed, could've done in the example fight) is to use readied Aid Another for AC to ensure that the Crusader's healing strikes miss and the kobolds don't die and then...pile-up until the guy can't move and then pile-up until the pile crushes the guy underneath. I'm sure there are rules for what damage certain amount of weight over you does. Perhaps in the cave-ins section or something?

They still need to be in position to melee you to do that, though. So you can still kill them as they come up to you.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-09, 03:20 AM
In the example fight, I would've simply had the Kobold hordes Aid Another Grapple. Cuts out weapons, Whirlwind Attack, most methods of healing and so on. If you can achieve DR 17/-, I think you can't lose tho.

Incorrect. You can lose.

Lose != Die.

If 100 kobolds tie up the guy, and the rest go around somehow, and take the objective? Even if you didn't die, you lost.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-09, 03:23 AM
Well, eventually you'll get a nat 20 on your check to oppose grapple right?

Wait, forget that...you can still damage people while in a grapple. So, even with them all dogpiled on you, preventing you from moving, you're still killing your way out.

Also, lets keep in mind that grappling gives them a -4 penalty for being small. So, they're not likely to pull it off in the first place.

Coidzor
2010-01-09, 03:26 AM
Yeah, but if they're dedicated to swarming and enough of them are within move-range, they'll exhaust the AoOs of any character, simply by dent of numbers. Like, a dex of 20 with combat reflexes gives +5 AoOs + 1 AoO base. That's only two sides (sharing a corner) on a horizontal plane for a character. They're going to fill up all of the spaces around the character in the first round that enough of them can move in. It only take 8+6=14 kobolds to completely surround said character, and only has significant chances (since the character CAN still miss after all) of losing 6 kobolds to the act of filling in the squares around him itself (with an additional 16 kobolds in the next ring and, ...however many make up the exterior of the 7x7 thing, I think 24 in the ring after that).

So I'm not seeing how he's going to prevent being surrounded.

Now the kobolds' ability to start and win a grapple, I can't recall offhand.

Can one aid another inside of a grapple in order for them to combine their wimpiness in order to pin and then cause damage in the grapple so that the character has to escape the pin in order to try to escape or damage them back?

Eldariel
2010-01-09, 03:27 AM
Incorrect. You can lose.

Lose != Die.

If 100 kobolds tie up the guy, and the rest go around somehow, and take the objective? Even if you didn't die, you lost.

We're talking about a very specific challenge here; I think that challenge was supposed to continue until you died.


Well, eventually you'll get a nat 20 on your check to oppose grapple right?

Wait, forget that...you can still damage people while in a grapple. So, even with them all dogpiled on you, preventing you from moving, you're still killing your way out.

Also, lets keep in mind that grappling gives them a -4 penalty for being small. So, they're not likely to pull it off in the first place.

Few points:
1) There are no natural 20s on grapple-checks. They're pretty exclusively limited to attack rolls and saves. Just about nothing else has a mechanic for autosuccess or failure.

2) More likely, once you're limited to killing a Kobold a turn (with reasonable chances), more will come than you can kill.

3) They'll probably Pin you. That means you can't damage them anymore. You can't really do anything but try to escape the Pin (you gotta succeed a Grapple-check vs. EVERYONE grappling you); even if you succeed, they'll just Pin you again next turn.

4) They may have insane penalties to Grapple-checks, but there are also about 100 times more of them than you and they have Aid Another. This would look very much like miniature Nanobots, really.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-09, 04:25 AM
We're talking about a very specific challenge here; I think that challenge was supposed to continue until you died.It's in a roleplay setting, and I presume the army's objective isn't: The PC's.



Few points:
3) They'll probably Pin you. That means you can't damage them anymore. You can't really do anything but try to escape the Pin (you gotta succeed a Grapple-check vs. EVERYONE grappling you); even if you succeed, they'll just Pin you again next turn.At level 8?
With 2 attacks, it's nearly assured that he can escape a grapple from pin easily.

You do have to win vs every opposing grapple, but if they're small, and 1 HD, and he's got grapple as a focal point, as he said, he could easily be swinging a +14 or so to grapple, vs the kobold's individual -3 (if 1st level warriors, elite array, with a 15 put in strength for a 11 final str, small size, and +1 bab).

2 grapples to escape pin and escape grapple, and he's out. Next round, assume he's surrounded by 8 kobolds. Let's say the first one to attack drops to an AoO, leaving 7 remaining. Being decently touch AC'd, let's say 1 misses, 1 hits. The remaining 5 Aid another the grapple check, for +10. That makes it monk +14, kobolds +7. Even without that AoO, even without the miss? Monk 14, Kobolds 11.

In short? Pinning for creatures with 1 iterative takes 2 rounds. Not gonna happen against a grapple focus monk, and even if it does, by some miracle, the monk's almost 100% to escape.

This isn't saying monk is good. It's saying that taking small sized non-grapple based CR 1/2 creatures, and pitting them against a ECL 8 monk with some focus in grapple? Not gonna go well for the small guy.

Frankly, they're better off with small heavy crossbows, and a few hundred shots.


4) They may have insane penalties to Grapple-checks, but there are also about 100 times more of them than you and they have Aid Another. This would look very much like miniature Nanobots, really.
Only a limited number of foes can grapple at once. I believe up to 8 smalls can grapple a medium, though I'm not 100% on that (might be 4, AFB). If he gets enlarged, it becomes more problematic, (while the number of foes that can grapple increases, the grapple target they're going against goes up too) and if he gets Expansioned for 2 categories, it becomes impossible (can't initiate grapple vs something more than 2 sizes bigger than you).

Coidzor
2010-01-09, 04:39 AM
Yeah, I think we got sidetracked from the task at hand into kobold slaughtering

...8 level monk, knowing what sort of preexisting focus was going on would be useful for advising.

Skill loadout+feats, sort of thing.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-09, 04:49 AM
Other options?

Get Fly + Body of the Sun. As many as you can fly over get fried. Your increased movement will actually be of use here.

Want more synergy? Add Enlarge Person in. Increases the area of effect.

Cut swaths in the enemy, and the fire will deal lethal damage to the ogre mage.

Try to make sure you have a Protection from Arrows type effect up, because you'll likely be shot at. A lot.

Eldariel
2010-01-09, 05:16 AM
It's in a roleplay setting, and I presume the army's objective isn't: The PC's.

At level 8?

Ah, sorry. This was a tangential discussion with regards to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135924) thread and how to go about it on level 1 and what potential problems one may encounter.

Ire
2010-01-09, 06:29 AM
Get the opposing army into a valley of some sort. Initiate a stampede of cattle into said valley by applying oil to their tails and lighting them on fire.

Or do what the Romans did, use catapults/flaming arrows, get pigs grease them up and light them on fire.

A pretty standard tactic is to dig large pits where your enemy will charge so those who walk over them will fall into the pit and die and those who don't fall in have to run in a pattern you can control and therefore bombard.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-09, 07:09 AM
Catapults + Trolls = Very Angry Ammunition.

Emmerask
2010-01-09, 07:40 AM
Bring something that protects you from arrows would be my first advice.

Be a spartan would be good too :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Lysander
2010-01-09, 10:59 AM
Why not weaken the army before battle? Capture an enemy scout or sentry and cast Contagion on him. Send him back to the enemy army with a communicable disease. Or two! Or three!

Rasman
2010-01-09, 11:36 AM
lol...the level 1 kobold fight amused me still, goes to show the amusing things you can pull off in this game

someone mentioned Thunderstones a while back, are there other versions of thunder stones that might have a more offensive effect?

DragonBaneDM
2010-01-09, 06:00 PM
Oh wow cool thread! Are you attacking the BBEG's base or are you on the defensive?

Rasman
2010-01-09, 06:28 PM
Oh wow cool thread! Are you attacking the BBEG's base or are you on the defensive?

defense, for the most part

Karoht
2010-02-11, 04:20 PM
Or bring 300 of these guys.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136953

Just saying.

Ormagoden
2010-02-11, 04:38 PM
I play a tri-kreen with cleave feats and 4 bastard swords all tricked out with some nicey nice enchantments that just boost damage.
(like flaming, frost, shock, acidic, thundering)

Or maybe a cryo hydra with cleave feats, deformities for reach, and those dragon dentures from the draconomicon.


Also

Catapult + shrink item + Earth elementals + dismissing spell before impact = epic

Oh yeah...you can poison their water source.

kentma57
2010-02-11, 05:36 PM
Fighting tightly packed low level infantry, what my sorrcerer dreamed of.
An elf with 8 Str that stood at the imperesive hight of 4'2" got alot of respect on the battle field. Use his favorite trick, a 5'8" scotish claymore that had a use activated 'Whirling Blade' spell on it.

Altima
2010-02-11, 06:11 PM
The problem with cleave and such is reach--you can only be surrounded by eight medium creatures (sixteen kobolds). Double if you get enlarged. So if you're not using a reach weapon, which is likely since this battle is part of a campaign and not a design-to-fight, you'll, at most, kill 32 kobolds a round. Assuming they all fill the areas.

During the actual battle itself, you and the rest of the PCs would be best served as either assassins or an elite strike force.

For example, you can command a squad of your own mooks and challenge the goblinoid leaders of each regiment. If you manage to turn him into paste rather brutally, it may disenheart said critters and force them to flee. It will at least demoralize them. Your rogues can merely dress up in (your) mook livery and backstab a commander when he's not looking.

As an elite strike force, pinpoint a collection of leadership and teleport, fly, or tunnel your way there, and smash it into pieces.

I'm guessing the PCs aren't the generals. If that's the case, I imagine the actual battlefiend preparation will be taken care of, such as where and when to fight and so on.

Another recommendation would be, perhaps, to build lines of small holes with post-diggers so that when the worgs charge (and worgs will charge), if one of their feet slip into the hole, it may break a leg, dismount a gobbo, or similar shenannigans.

Tao the Ninja
2010-02-12, 09:07 PM
Get the opposing army into a valley of some sort. Initiate a stampede of cattle into said valley by applying oil to their tails and lighting them on fire.

Or do what the Romans did, use catapults/flaming arrows, get pigs grease them up and light them on fire.

A pretty standard tactic is to dig large pits where your enemy will charge so those who walk over them will fall into the pit and die and those who don't fall in have to run in a pattern you can control and therefore bombard.

THIS. (x+y)+(x+z), where x=seige engine, y=oil, and z=alchemist's fire.
BOOM

Dr.Epic
2010-02-13, 12:31 AM
Frenzied Berserker who takes extended rage as many times as possible. Just put me in a catapult and fire me to the enemy's side. It'll be fine.