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Dr_S
2010-01-09, 01:36 AM
Hello everyone! *wave*

As my thread title suggests, I'm mostly new to these forums (among other things) I have lurked a bit, read a few threads, gotten some answers, but this is my first post.

I am also mostly new to D&D. When I was a kid, my friends mistakenly pegged me as one of those kids who thought they were too cool to take the game seriously. Now I find myself at a disadvantage because a lot of this game is very intriguing to me. My actual play experience I'll get to in a second.

I'm also mostly new to DMing... I know you're probably going O.o right about now, but as I explain my situation maybe it'll make it more clear.

My friends and I like table top gaming, however aside from the times we as a group sat down and played together, our entire table experience consists of me playing 2 sessions with someone I knew in Cali...

At this point we've got a firm enough understanding of the rules that we can actually play a game (me as the DM barely knowing the rules myself... and I should mention that I've read the sticky DM thread)

The reason I put myself in this situation is because I thought I'd rather play with close friends who didn't know how to play than a bunch of strangers. To my surprise despite all odds it's mostly a success.

Here's where I've got some problems I'd like some advice on.

Challenge Ratings: I can't for the life of me put together encounters for this group that are appropriate. Part of this is me being new to DMing, the rest being that no one knows any of the rules so they aren't used to combat and so I'm struggling to find a balance.

Meta-Game thinking: My group does not know how to play without it. We're all new so I don't think they're incapable but I need to find a way to discourage it that takes into consideration they've never played a game like this, so they just plain don't know how.

We've been sticking to 3.5 core books because the SRD is free online and we have a friend of a friend who will gladly loan us the hard copies when we need it.

If anyone has got some specific advice for my particular situation (Table of ALL newbies) concerning those 2 topics or any advice for this at all. Specifically when if comes to dealing with a Table of all Newbies (including again myself) that would be great.

Few specific questions I have:

1) My group at this time has voiced (and I agreed) that bringing someone in who's a more experienced player may be a bad idea because we don't want to spend an entire session being corrected on all the things we do wrong... Do you guys agree? Or do you think this is something we should consider further?

2) I've considered a few things concerning the meta-game thinking... one thing I was thinking of, (and I've done some reading so I know how dangerous this can be) was adding a DMPC next time so any questions directed at me the DM would be answered in character by a really confused PC? I'm still in the brain storming phase on this so... would this work? or would it backfire you think?

I had more but I've seemed to forgotten them all for the time being...

Kol Korran
2010-01-09, 04:55 AM
first of all- welcome to the game! i hope you and your friends will enjoy it quite a bit!
as to your questions:
adding an experienced player: it all depends on who the player is. if s/he is a jerk, then it's not advised. if they are helpfull nice people, maybe yes. Buuuutt... since your group decided to run without an experience player, i say go for it (better to stick with group decisions). you don't have to do everything by the book- do whatever seems right and suits you!

players meta gaming all the time: first of all- if everyone is having fun, then there is no harm in it, though i prefer some immersion in character myself. i would advise against a DMPC, since the game is complicated as it is in the beginning. instead try the followings advice:
- have everyone else (NPCs, monsters and more) very much in character. hopefully this will encourage some roleplaying.
- try and include situations/ encounters that includes some content that rfers to a PC's background or personality, or situations that involve moral choices or roleplay choices (you know your players, you know what gets them going).
- most importently, try not to just play it as a game, with always CR appropriate monsters and so on. try and play the world "realistically" as possible, with tactics, emotions, knowledge and lack of knowledge all having an effect. this will usually trump "game logic" fairly soon. only take care and don't intentionally try to ruin your PCs plans (unless you're playing a villain who does so), for their plans will be undone quite a bit by the world.
- metagaming usually happens in games where "things tend to go a certain way" or railroading. (i'm not saying you are) give your players the freedom to choose, but also make them accountable for their choices.

Challange rating: first of all make sure you understand the CR rules correctly, especially about involving monsters of different CRs, or many monsters together. do not that the system is FAR from perfect, as many playgrounders can tell you. you'll develop a sense of it over time. if however you see that an encounter is going wrong, you can easely modify it on the fly (note: use these methods sparingly, or else the players will catch on and feel cheated):
- encounter too tough: monster/s run away, prefering to run and heal and fight another day. this could become a recurring mini villain, or alert forces down the road, or whatever. alternetavely, if you "need" a monster to die, you can just lower it's hit points.
- encounter too easy: first of all- that is not too bad. sometimes it's nice to just wipe out monsters without a sweat- feels good! but if you do need to spurce things up then just have reinforcments arrive, after hearing the battle. these could be of a different kind of monsters, or one with class levels/ better equipment (mainly armor)

if you have any more questions please ask. some of us may have the answer for you. if you wish to discuss encounters and their CR, it might be a good practice for you.

hope this helped,
Kol.

taltamir
2010-01-09, 05:23 AM
some metagame is good and essential, some metagame is bad.

Example of good metagame is when the party coordinates their alignment, what is acceptable for PCs to do to each other, and for individuals to do things that go against the nature of their character because it will make the game better.

examples:
1. By coordinating their alignment, the party can avoid the tension of having a lawful good paladin with an evil partner and infighting that results. Unless they intentionally want to have such a game
2. By deciding what is and isn't acceptable, the party could decide that players can be of any alignment, and that evil ones should be backstabbing the good ones. It is important that there is a consensus that such a thing is acceptable and enjoyable to all ahead of time or it will end badly
3. Acting out of character... if your character would betray the party at some point resulting at a TPK, you might want to metagame a bit and come up with a convoluted reason for him to save them instead... much more fun for all.

metagame does not automatically mean evil... although many times people metagame inappropriately. Examples of bad metagaming:
EX: read? why would a wizard be stupid enough to read... just go kill some kobolds if you want to learn stuff!
EX2: Mmm, I am # XP short of leveling... Lets go buy 17 hunting dogs for 10gp each, then slay them. i have calculated that at their CR and my level it would be enough for me to level up
EX3: well, I failed my knowledge check, and I always always always start the battle by shooting melf acid arrow at the enemy. But I the player recognize that creature as one who is immune to acid, so I am not gonna use it on it.

nyjastul69
2010-01-09, 06:43 AM
Welcome to the game. The single most important thing to remember is 'it's supposed fun'. If your group is enjoying themselves, you're doing it right.

I don't have much to add to what the others said about metagaming other than to say a certain amount is good, it shows the players are interested in your game. As a DM this is your most important task.

The CR/EL system does indeed have its flaws, but it's only supposed to be a guide anyway. Use it, but don't be a slave to it.

Temotei
2010-01-09, 06:50 AM
Always give your friends a feather fall item or spell eventually. Especially if they're into climbing things. :smallsigh:

Welcome to the playground. There's a thread specifically for being welcomed in the friendly banter section of the forum, if you want to say "hi." :smallsmile:

BobVosh
2010-01-09, 06:57 AM
CR is mostly a joke. I really can't help but feel a dartboard was involved in choosing the CR of some creatures.

DMPC: It is a trap. ABORT. Don't do this thing.

Experienced player: Unless they are DMing I would recommend waiting until you feel vaguely comfortable with the system.

Metagaming: Meh, it happens. Especially with newer players. Either ya'll will get over it, or you will have fun with it. Not important unless it ruins the fun for someone. Running mainly from SRD could have something to do with it, as it is all crunch no fluff.

Buying a campaign setting (or borrow) is a good way around this. FRCS is always popular, Eberron as well if you like super mage tech. There are several fan updates for 3.5 of older systems. The one for Dark Sun was very well done here (http://www.athas.org/). Well, I think that is the link. At work so it is blocked :(

Good luck, and welcome to the WORLD OF TOMORROW!

Temotei
2010-01-09, 07:01 AM
Oh yeah, and Dexterity doesn't raise your ranged damage. That's what composite bows are for (Strength to damage).

DonEsteban
2010-01-09, 10:47 AM
Your CR problem probably has to do with your inexperience as a GM (because you apply the wrong tactics etc), but maybe also with your ignorance of the rules. So it might be a good idea to ask an experienced player to participate. Of course he shouldn't be a jerk, but if he isn't, he can maybe identify a few of your most severe problems. You could just bring him in for a one-shot adventure outside your current campaign, so if it doesn't work out there's not much lost...

IonDragon
2010-01-09, 11:03 AM
I strongly suggest starting at low levels if you're not doing so already. Starting at level 1 or 2 allows your players to ease into their powers and new spells rather than suddenly having them. Keeping in core is also a good idea. There is an unbelievable amount of information out there, and it can be overwhelming easily.

HailDiscordia
2010-01-09, 11:21 AM
It seems like you are all off to a good start and if everyone is having fun than you are already doing things correctly.

Don't feel the need to bring in an experienced player for the sake of it, especially since it is probably easier to manage a smaller number this early in your DM career. Don't worry about things like filling the supposed required party rolls or making sure you have a cleric or whatever. Build encounters around what the party wants to do/is capable of doing.

Also don't worry about CR too much. I would recommend starting at 1st level and throwing some weak monsters at them. Some goblins, maybe an orc with a falchion at the tough for an adventure. And from there sort of level up the competition with the party, it will give you a feel for what an enemy is capable of rather than just looking at CR and having them battle that.

Meta gaming is almost an essential part of learning the game, but I guess it depends on exactly what they are doing. There is also nothing wrong with hitting the pause button on the adventure and letting the party ask you questions about something, especially if they don't understand how stuff works. Example: if they want to sneak up on the goblin guard explain to them that they will need to make a move silently check opposed by the guard's listen. Start slow and make sure that everyone is learning how the game works.

Have fun!

Dr_S
2010-01-09, 01:01 PM
Hey thanks guys, I think I should clarify where my meta game problems lie.
Of course we don't always know the rules so I don't mind pausing and out of game discussing a few things or things like that... I have 3 main problems related to that.

1) Players try to outsmart DM. They are obsessed with really minor things, and they assume (though I've given them no reason to) that every clue I give them is a trap. Not because in game anything's happened, but because they think I only add minor stuff as the real clues (apparently never heard of adding things for flavor) and things that are "too easy" I wouldn't add unless it was a trick... (though their definition of too easy is pretty much anything I had prepared ahead of time...not information that was easy to come by)

2) There is a lot going on in our story... (several things happening at once) but they refuse to write anything down unless I tell them they have to (took forever for me to even get them to note things they find for their inventory) so fine I say, but then the game is over and they start asking me about the things that need clarifying... and it's a trap! I would like it if even one wrote anything down, because I remember things that I wrote, not things they took note of.

3) We've known each other for a long time. They think they know me, so I give them a minor clue and they make a ton of assumptions about it because of what they think I would add. They've been right at least twice, fortunately those two times were relatively minor things... it's the times they're wrong though. They start acting on information they made up and then get upset when it's not actually something I said and it's wrong.

Radar
2010-01-09, 04:54 PM
1) and 3) They will learn. You are new, they are new, things will strighten up most probably.
If they try to pursue every detail you give them, you might try adding a bit more details, so they will have to start choosing them and actually searching the real clues out. It's what i would do, but i can't warrant this method - never had to use it.
If they misinterpret something, drop more hints, that might disprove their wrong assumptions, so it would go more smooth, then suddenly finding out, they were wrong all along, unless the BBEG is the one misleading the PCs. :smallbiggrin:

2) Have a coloured pen, to mark information avaliable to PCs in your notes. Simple, but goes a long way.

Fuzzie Fuzz
2010-01-09, 05:13 PM
...I thought I'd rather play with close friends who didn't know how to play than a bunch of strangers...

I definitely agree.

1) My group at this time has voiced (and I agreed) that bringing someone in who's a more experienced player may be a bad idea because we don't want to spend an entire session being corrected on all the things we do wrong... Do you guys agree? Or do you think this is something we should consider further?

This was my group's thinking when we were getting together, but we needed another player, so we let a friend of one of the players join. He's played almost every system, so I was a bit wary, but he's been a great addition, and is useful as a reference more than he is annoying.

2) I've considered a few things concerning the meta-game thinking... one thing I was thinking of, (and I've done some reading so I know how dangerous this can be) was adding a DMPC next time so any questions directed at me the DM would be answered in character by a really confused PC? I'm still in the brain storming phase on this so... would this work? or would it backfire you think?

NOOOOOO. Don't do it! Bad idea.

Bold are my responses. Welcome to the game and the site! I play 4e, so I can't help with CR, and we're just as guilty of metagaming, so no help there either.

Aldizog
2010-01-09, 05:15 PM
Hey thanks guys, I think I should clarify where my meta game problems lie.
Of course we don't always know the rules so I don't mind pausing and out of game discussing a few things or things like that... I have 3 main problems related to that.

1) Players try to outsmart DM. They are obsessed with really minor things, and they assume (though I've given them no reason to) that every clue I give them is a trap. Not because in game anything's happened, but because they think I only add minor stuff as the real clues (apparently never heard of adding things for flavor) and things that are "too easy" I wouldn't add unless it was a trick... (though their definition of too easy is pretty much anything I had prepared ahead of time...not information that was easy to come by)

2) There is a lot going on in our story... (several things happening at once) but they refuse to write anything down unless I tell them they have to (took forever for me to even get them to note things they find for their inventory) so fine I say, but then the game is over and they start asking me about the things that need clarifying... and it's a trap! I would like it if even one wrote anything down, because I remember things that I wrote, not things they took note of.

3) We've known each other for a long time. They think they know me, so I give them a minor clue and they make a ton of assumptions about it because of what they think I would add. They've been right at least twice, fortunately those two times were relatively minor things... it's the times they're wrong though. They start acting on information they made up and then get upset when it's not actually something I said and it's wrong.
1) is something that even experienced players do all the time. Suppose the players are familiar with TV series like Stargate, or whatever, where Chekov's Gun is in clearly in effect. If you only have 44 minutes to tell your story, any detail that gets 1 minute of on-screen conversation has to matter. But if you have a bit more time, as you do when running a D&D session, you can be a bit more "realistic," where some details are just flavor, some NPCs who want to talk to you actually aren't quest-relevant, and so on.

2) is also something that some players just never want to do. Taking notes feels like work. But when you have to keep straight the names of various nobles and officials and scheming factions, it really helps. As you said, if even one person is willing to do this, you're okay. But really enforce "If it's not on your sheet, you don't have it." There can't be some abstract lump of "party loot" floating around -- a specific PC has any given item and can use it in a fight or lose it to a pickpocket. Good to get this habit into new players, as those who get used to the unaccounted-for pile of party loot find it a hard habit to break.

3), well, after a while I think they'll come to realize that you're making an effort to be unpredictable.

Triaxx
2010-01-09, 05:26 PM
If you've ever played Baldur's Gate, Elminster is the quintessential example of a totally useless DMPC, he shows up, spouts advice then leaves. Better to read the book for the information.

Experienced player: See if you can find one willing to sit in and advise on rules if you're not sure, but not play right away, or potentially ask them to DM a side session or two, so you can get a feel for how the hard to understand things work, like CR.

CR: It's a guideline. It's built to be taken out by a party of four adventurers whose levels are equal to the monster's CR. So a CR9 is meant for 4 level 9 adventurers. And is only supposed to use a quarter of their total resources to kill. Naturally some monsters are way overpowered, or way underpowered.

You will sometimes find that you'll need a Deus Ex Machina to get out of situations. Fighting too tough monsters on the road? Have a band of guards come along to even the odds, or even a forest ranger to assist can turn a fight from a Total Party Kill to an even match.

Temotei
2010-01-09, 05:37 PM
If you've ever played Baldur's Gate, Elminster is the quintessential example of a totally useless DMPC, he shows up, spouts advice then leaves. Better to read the book for the information.

Experienced player: See if you can find one willing to sit in and advise on rules if you're not sure, but not play right away, or potentially ask them to DM a side session or two, so you can get a feel for how the hard to understand things work, like CR.

CR: It's a guideline. It's built to be taken out by a party of four adventurers whose levels are equal to the monster's CR. So a CR9 is meant for 4 level 9 adventurers. And is only supposed to use a quarter of their total resources to kill. Naturally some monsters are way overpowered, or way underpowered.

You will sometimes find that you'll need a Deus Ex Machina to get out of situations. Fighting too tough monsters on the road? Have a band of guards come along to even the odds, or even a forest ranger to assist can turn a fight from a Total Party Kill to an even match.

Well, if Elminster actually did anything, the game would end right there. He's like level 35 or something.

EDIT: Unless there's another Elminster unrelated to the one I'm thinking of.

Dr_S
2010-01-09, 05:49 PM
Thanks some more,

So my first experience (the 2 times down in Cali I played with experienced players) we were actually playing in an Eberron setting. This is where I learned to love the bard, specifically bardic knowledge :D!

Anyway, Bob there mentioned picking up a Campaign setting book for when we do finally get back together. I'm not familiar with FRCS but I did like Eberron (and I don't see why my friends wouldn't) so I was wondering...

do I just need this book? (link to amazon page) (http://www.amazon.com/Eberron-Campaign-Setting-Dungeons-Roleplaying/dp/0786932740/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263077431&sr=8-1)Is that even the right one? There are like 18 different books with Eberron in the title and so I'm not sure which one(s) I'd need if I wanted to run an eberron campaign...

DragonBaneDM
2010-01-09, 05:57 PM
Welcome To The Playground Dr S!!!

nyjastul69
2010-01-09, 07:26 PM
Yes Dr_S that is the correct book and is the only one necessary to run an Eberron campaign. I would suggest this setting as it's the one you have some experience with. Good luck.

drengnikrafe
2010-01-09, 07:40 PM
I had a specific, strange set of circumstances around my start.

I joined a very experienced group. The group was so experienced that the DM knew everything by heart, and the rest of the players were optimizers. In order to be useful, my original thoughts said, I needed to optimize, and I needed to metagame. I immediately worked to understand the inner workings of the games, and how to be the most useful.

So, as far as the experienced person goes... it could be bad. If you add in someone who does what my group's more experienced people did, it becomes really difficult to understand things at a more reasonable rate.

Also, when I stepped into the shoes of DM and added a DMPC, he ended up a lifeless, personalityless shell so that my other things didn't suffer. Then, I removed him from the group. DMPCs don't work well until you can handle everything else without virtually any thought, and even then... they're very dangerous.

All that being said... Welcome. Hello. It's good to have you. Thank you for joining us.

Dr_S
2010-01-09, 11:07 PM
Yes Dr_S that is the correct book and is the only one necessary to run an Eberron campaign. I would suggest this setting as it's the one you have some experience with. Good luck.

Yes I liked the idea of the robots (warforged whatever) and the dragon marks, and somehow I did something useful and totally caught everyone by surprise... (we were given directions to a location that seemed weird so I recommended buying a map and tracing the directions in to it and we discovered it made a pattern) I was sucked in very quickly by eberron!

Swordgleam
2010-01-10, 12:41 AM
2) There is a lot going on in our story... (several things happening at once) but they refuse to write anything down unless I tell them they have to (took forever for me to even get them to note things they find for their inventory) so fine I say, but then the game is over and they start asking me about the things that need clarifying... and it's a trap! I would like it if even one wrote anything down, because I remember things that I wrote, not things they took note of.


Do you play with XP? (If your response to this question is "What? Doesn't everyone?" no worries; many people think XP is the only option. In some groups, the DM just says "you level now" whenever it seems appropriate, and it works great with the right group.) If so, consider giving a small amount of XP after each session for any notes the players take. You might have to adjust this system depending on how enthusiastic they are about it - depending on your players, they might start writing down every word you say.

Either that, or have a few situations each session where the players could gain something if they remembered something relatively important from earlier. This will make them realize that they benefit from knowing stuff.

For example, if politics are important and they found out earlier in the session that the head of the wizards' guild just announced he's running for mayor, you might have a shopkeeper say, "I'll give a 10% discount on potions to anyone who can suggest a candidate for me to vote for who will attract more wizards to the city." If the players turn to you and say, "Oh yeah, wasn't there some guy like that we heard about?" tell them, "You don't remember." They'll get the hint pretty quickly.

Dr_S
2010-01-10, 12:57 AM
hey that's a pretty cool idea!

I'm definitely glad I finally joined and posted instead of just lurking about like some sort of lurky thing...

We actually hadn't been using XP... but now that we know the rules a bit better I don't feel weird about giving them that as something to work with too (a few suggested the "level after major encounters/plot points" method and that was working for us)