WOTC: Divination is worst school

[taltamir]

According the RAW, you must ban 2 schools of your choice if your wizard specializes... Except you cannot ban divination. And if you chose to specialize in divination, you need only ban 1 other school.

To me this sounds like WOTC saying that divination is the worst (by far) school.

Anyone else find this pretty hilarious?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Indeed I do.

[Signmaker]

More like "knowledge is power", to me.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Not so much the worst as simultaneously too crippling to ban, and not having enough good spells to make specializing in worth 2 schools. And for once, they're kind of right(at least core-only). Would you honestly cast a divination spell of each level, daily, unless you had to?

[Grumman]

Or maybe it's not that Divination is weak, but that you can't not learn Divination and still be a Wizard. It's the school that contains Read Magic, after all.

[Tyndmyr]

According the RAW, you must ban 2 schools of your choice if your wizard specializes... Except you cannot ban divination. And if you chose to specialize in divination, you need only ban 1 other school.

To me this sounds like WOTC saying that divination is the worst (by far) school.

Anyone else find this pretty hilarious?

Of course it's terrible it has no blasting! :smallbiggrin:

[taltamir]

Not so much the worst as simultaneously too crippling to ban, and not having enough good spells to make specializing in worth 2 schools. And for once, they're kind of right(at least core-only). Would you honestly cast a divination spell of each level, daily, unless you had to?

mmm, that is one way to interpret it... although I thought their intent was "it is unfair to allow you to ban such a worthless school for extra power" rather then "it will be crippling to ban because of must have spells so we must forbid banning it, but it will be worthless to specialize because most spell levels don't have worthwhile spells, only a few levels do, so we forbid it because it will be bad choice"

I mean, specializing in divination sounds better then specializing in evocation. And WOTC banning it because it will not be sufficiently useless seems uncharacteristic... I mean, they allow turning. and seem to encourage the storm wind fallacy of sacrificing power for "role playing"

As for spells. I actually wonder if I would. I am going to try that right now:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#firstLevelSorcererWizardS pells

LVL1:
Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages.
Detect Secret Doors: Reveals hidden doors within 60 ft.
Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Identify M: Determines properties of magic item.
True Strike: +20 on your next attack roll.

Aside from identify and detect undead (which are useful, but situational), I would want all the other 3 memorized every day, always.

LVL2:
Detect Thoughts: Allows “listening” to surface thoughts.
Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
See Invisibility: Reveals invisible creatures or objects.

Ok those are all freaking awesome. I want to memorize all of them, multiple times...

LVL3:
Arcane Sight: Magical auras become visible to you.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: Hear or see at a distance for 1 min./level.
Tongues: Speak any language.

Clairaudience is fairly limited use (visible sensor, limited range, short duration, long casting time... its only redeeming factor is that you do not need a line of sight to location...
the rest are awesome.

LVL4:
Arcane Eye: Invisible floating eye moves 30 ft./round.
Detect Scrying: Alerts you of magical eavesdropping.
Locate Creature: Indicates direction to familiar creature.
Scrying F: Spies on subject from a distance.

All are awesome spells, I will want detect scrying and scrying prepared daily. the rest situationally.

LVL5:
Contact Other Plane: Lets you ask question of extraplanar entity.
Prying Eyes: 1d4 +1/level floating eyes scout for you.
Telepathic Bond: Link lets allies communicate.

All awesome... I will go for telepathic bond.

LVL6:
Analyze Dweomer F: Reveals magical aspects of subject.
Legend Lore M F: Lets you learn tales about a person, place, or thing.
True Seeing M: Lets you see all things as they really are.

True seeing, daily.

LVL7:
Arcane Sight, Greater: As arcane sight, but also reveals magic effects on creatures and objects.
Scrying, Greater: As scrying, but faster and longer.
Vision M X: As legend lore, but quicker and strenuous.

greater scrying and greater arcane sight are both worth a slot every single day of my wizard's life.

LVL8:
Discern Location: Reveals exact location of creature or object.
Moment of Prescience: You gain insight bonus on single attack roll, check, or save.
Prying Eyes, Greater: As prying eyes, but eyes have true seeing.

I am thinking moment of prescience, although all are awesome.

LVL9:
Foresight: “Sixth sense” warns of impending danger.

Only one spell, but one of the most awesome spells in existance... definitely worth a daily slot...

So there is at least one awesome spell per level that is definitely worth a daily slot...
I intentionally avoid divination usually because it just seems... wrong to take. Same reason I don't play a chain tripper or some other builds... but I am really tempted to play a dedicated diviner now.

In our game varient of single school "wizards" only, the abjuration + divination are a single school right? I am actually really interested in playing one in a party. If you don't mind and will allow useful divinations, I would like to make one if my cleric bites the dust.


Or maybe it's not that Divination is weak, but that you can't not learn Divination and still be a Wizard. It's the school that contains Read Magic, after all.

you can use spellcraft, read magic just means you automatically succeed your spellcraft check to decipher a spell.


Of course it's terrible it has no blasting! :smallbiggrin:

lolermao!
I literally laughed my ass off (someone dial 911, I am bleeding a lot!)

[oxybe]

Of course it's terrible it has no blasting! :smallbiggrin:

*cough*locatecitybomb*cough*

[Grumman]

you can use spellcraft, read magic just means you automatically succeed your spellcraft check to decipher a spell.
Using Read Magic also means you permanently gain the ability to decipher that spell. Without Read Magic you can only attempt to learn a spell once per level, and can only attempt to prepare a spell once per day, with a non-zero chance of failure. Such a wizard might roll low and fail to learn any of his starting spells, leaving him a commoner with a very expensive pet cat.

[Zeful]

*cough*locatecitybomb*cough*

*coughdoesntworkcough*

[JadedDM]

Of course it's terrible it has no blasting! :smallbiggrin:

Probably more truth in that than you realize. I seem to recall hearing somewhere that WOTC thought of wizards as purely blasters, and were surprised when they found out the players were using them for other things, too.

[taltamir]

Using Read Magic also means you permanently gain the ability to decipher that spell. Without Read Magic you can only attempt to learn a spell once per level, and can only attempt to prepare a spell once per day, with a non-zero chance of failure. Such a wizard might roll low and fail to learn any of his starting spells, leaving him a commoner with a very expensive pet cat.

you are mixing a few things up:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook


Arcane Magical Writings
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in her own way. Another person’s magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until she takes time to study and decipher it.

To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers a magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.

Once a character deciphers a particular magical writing, she does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering a magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing was a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use the scroll.
You may retry to decipher a found scroll or spellbook once a day until you succed... read magic just means automatic success on deciphering it (aka, recognize what spell it actually is)


A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll.

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp.
As you can see, read magic helps with the deciphering of the spell, not with the learning of the spell. Deciphering it allows you infinite retries (once per day) and automatically succeeds if you have help from author... also, once you deciphered magic writing (what read magic does) with a spellcraft check, you never need to do it again for that particular magical text (its not for that particular spell, if you find the spell from another source you must decipher that as well)

[Crow]

I am playing a divination specialist right now actually. I have found that I actually end up leaving most of my specialist slots empty, so I can fill them in 15 minutes for whichever divination spell I end up happening to need.

The unfortunate part of being a specialist Diviner is that you need to pick at least one divination spell for one of your two free spells on level up. Not a problem, unless you play core like our group, and isn't a problem until levels 18, 19, and 20, where you are only getting one free 9th level spell. You instead have to choose a lower level spell because there is only one 9th level divination spell.

But luckily wizards are strong enough at that level, that complaining about it is pretty pointless.

[taltamir]

wait... what?
you get 1 free slot per spell level, not per class level...
A level 20 specialist has 9 bonus slots, not 20 bonus slots.

[Eldariel]

wait... what?
you get 1 free slot per spell level, not per class level...
A level 20 specialist has 9 bonus slots, not 20 bonus slots.

She's talking about free spells LEARNED. That's the other effect of specialization. Though to be fair, on those levels you generally should have access to all spells you want through money anyways.

And even non-Core actually adds pitifully few Divinations for high levels. There's Hindsight and yeah...

[taltamir]

well... you will be using your SL9 slot on forsight anyways.

Since I have never ever seen a valid plan to kill a high level wizard without totally surprising it, foresight makes it effectively impossible to surprise you. You win DnD :)

[Eldariel]

well... you will be using your SL9 slot on forsight anyways.

Since I have never ever seen a valid plan to kill a high level wizard without totally surprising it, foresight makes it effectively impossible to surprise you. You win DnD :)

Aye, but it feels sorta wasteful to learn level 1s you've missed from 18-20 'cause that's all the Divinations you have left to learn. :smallwink:

[Zaq]

I've always found it interesting that Seers (Clairsentience specialist Psions, that is) don't have any similar rules that apply to them. I know that the process of specializing in a psionic discipline is very different from specializing as a wizard, but still, I think it's telling.

[Optimystik]

I've always found it interesting that Seers (Clairsentience specialist Psions, that is) don't have any similar rules that apply to them. I know that the process of specializing in a psionic discipline is very different from specializing as a wizard, but still, I think it's telling.

Given that all psions automatically ban Illusion (due to not having it), I'd say it's fair.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

If you're a smart player, you'll never ban divination. It's one of the best schools and one of the reasons of why wizards are overpowered. At low levels it's just useful, but once you reach beyond 10th level, you'll crack up your DM's adventures.

[TheOOB]

I seem to remember the general advise being if you don't have a particular school you want to specialize in, spec in divination and ban evocation. Divination is highly useful, not only having at least one good "adventure" spell per spell level. Evocation on the other hand sucks. Blasting is horribly inefficient for wizards, conjuration and necro blast just as well(if not better), and shadow evocation covers the couple evocation spells you might miss.

[taltamir]

If you're a smart player, you'll never ban divination. It's one of the best schools and one of the reasons of why wizards are overpowered. At low levels it's just useful, but once you reach beyond 10th level, you'll crack up your DM's adventures.

I always ignore divination because I don't like wrecking the DM's plot.

[Aedilred]

I'm currently playing a Divination specialist, and I have to admit that at low levels it was quite painful. There are some really useful spells in there, but so many of them are only relevant in certain situations. Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Thoughts (which is not as useful as it sounds), See Invisibility - they can all be invaluable, but they can equally be totally useless. Unless I knew I was going to need one of them I'd almost always rather have had an extra Illusion or Transmutation spell instead.

Once you break into mid-levels, though, it really comes into its own. Having Scrying prepared for "free" every day... Clairvoyance can be pretty useful too. It gets better from then on.

[Eloel]

I like the Prescience variant from Unearthed Arcana while specializing in Divination. The extra divination slots are not as useful as a 'get out of jail free' card (+int to save) every day.

That's why I never go generalist except as an elf - banning evocation makes you lose VERY little, and there are a bunch of things to gain from being a diviner (master specialist capstone is one worth mentioning. 3/day 5-round True Seeing for casting a cantrip? Cool, now I can keep that gold I'd spend on True Seeing.

[Eldariel]

I always ignore divination because I don't like wrecking the DM's plot.

Doesn't that specifically enhance plot when DM doesn't need to give you clues; you can dig 'em out for yourself, AND you have more of an idea on WHY what happens so DM doesn't need to explain out-of-game why so many seemingly illogical events took place. As a DM, I utilize player Divinations as a tool.

[jmbrown]

According the RAW, you must ban 2 schools of your choice if your wizard specializes... Except you cannot ban divination. And if you chose to specialize in divination, you need only ban 1 other school.

To me this sounds like WOTC saying that divination is the worst (by far) school.

Anyone else find this pretty hilarious?

It's a carryover from AD&D. The DMG pretty much said a wizard wasn't worth crap without read magic and detect magic. In 2E you could forgo greater divination (4th and higher level spells) but all wizards learned basic divination.

This was before the catchall spellcraft but divination is such an integral part of all spellcasters and nearly every fictional wizard is described as a philosopher and prophet so it makes sense.

[Kobold-Bard]

Of course it's terrible it has no blasting! :smallbiggrin:

Basically yes. WotC never thought people would play Diviners (what kind of Wizard wants to do that rather than freaking blow stuff up, party support is Cleric work), and assumed everyone would drop it at the first chance they got, so made it undroppable to make you pick a school that might actually be used (but still obviously inferior to Evocation because, y'know...FIREBALL!!!! :smallbiggrin:)

[Saph]

LVL1:
Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages.
Detect Secret Doors: Reveals hidden doors within 60 ft.
Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Identify M: Determines properties of magic item.
True Strike: +20 on your next attack roll.

Aside from identify and detect undead (which are useful, but situational), I would want all the other 3 memorized every day, always.

LVL2:
Detect Thoughts: Allows “listening” to surface thoughts.
Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
See Invisibility: Reveals invisible creatures or objects.

Ok those are all freaking awesome. I want to memorize all of them, multiple times...

LVL3:
Arcane Sight: Magical auras become visible to you.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: Hear or see at a distance for 1 min./level.
Tongues: Speak any language.

Clairaudience is fairly limited use (visible sensor, limited range, short duration, long casting time... its only redeeming factor is that you do not need a line of sight to location...
the rest are awesome.

Is there a single core spell you DON'T think is awesome? Look, those spells have their uses, but they're situational in the extreme. If you were playing a wizard with just those spells, I think most parties would boot you on grounds of uselessness.

At low levels specialising in Divination is a poor choice because the low-level Divinations are too specialised and just aren't necessary. See Invisibility isn't worth preparing every day unless you expect to run into invisible enemies every day.

[Bavarian itP]

If you're a smart player, you'll never ban divination.

If you're smart enough to know the rules (or to read the first post in a thread you're going to post in), you CAN'T ban divination.

[PhoenixRivers]

LVL1:
Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages.
Detect Secret Doors: Reveals hidden doors within 60 ft.
Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Identify M: Determines properties of magic item.
True Strike: +20 on your next attack roll.

Aside from identify and detect undead (which are useful, but situational), I would want all the other 3 memorized every day, always.I've marked through all the ones I find situational. Specially since divine casters Identify for cheaper.


LVL2:
Detect Thoughts: Allows “listening” to surface thoughts.
Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
See Invisibility: Reveals invisible creatures or objects.

Ok those are all freaking awesome. I want to memorize all of them, multiple times...Locate Object, while situational, is highly useful to have. The odds of Detect Thoughts getting good information? Not as good as one would think.
See invis? Again, situational, best in scroll form, but still, very useful when needed.


LVL3:
Arcane Sight: Magical auras become visible to you.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: Hear or see at a distance for 1 min./level.
Tongues: Speak any language.

Clairaudience is fairly limited use (visible sensor, limited range, short duration, long casting time... its only redeeming factor is that you do not need a line of sight to location...
the rest are awesome.
Arcane Sight, I'll agree, is very, very good. The others? Too situational, or the return isn't worth the cast time.


LVL4:
Arcane Eye: Invisible floating eye moves 30 ft./round.
Detect Scrying: Alerts you of magical eavesdropping.
Locate Creature: Indicates direction to familiar creature.
Scrying F: Spies on subject from a distance.

All are awesome spells, I will want detect scrying and scrying prepared daily. the rest situationally.The problem with detect scrying is that anyone with an int of 12+ can do that. Other spells? Too situational to be justified, when compared to other level 4 spells.


LVL5:
Contact Other Plane: Lets you ask question of extraplanar entity.
Prying Eyes: 1d4 +1/level floating eyes scout for you.
Telepathic Bond: Link lets allies communicate.

All awesome... I will go for telepathic bond.Telepathic Bond is best off a scroll, then Permanencied. Prying eyes is good, but the time it takes to get information from them? Makes them less than highly effective in high tension environments. CoP, however, is probably one of the best divinations in the game.


LVL6:
Analyze Dweomer F: Reveals magical aspects of subject.
Legend Lore M F: Lets you learn tales about a person, place, or thing.
True Seeing M: Lets you see all things as they really are.

True seeing, daily.It's good, but you can get by with a Gem of Seeing, if needed. Pretty short duration makes it less than amazing, though still, it trumps so much that it's worthwhile. The rest? Prepare as needed, otherwise, don't worry about em.


LVL7:
Arcane Sight, Greater: As arcane sight, but also reveals magic effects on creatures and objects.
Scrying, Greater: As scrying, but faster and longer.
Vision M X: As legend lore, but quicker and strenuous.

greater scrying and greater arcane sight are both worth a slot every single day of my wizard's life.Greater Scrying is situational, and defeated by anti divination magic near this level. Greater Arcane Sight? Eh, once you get Arcane Sight Permanencied, the extra bells and whistles that Greater gives you don't justify a slot, IMO.


LVL8:
Discern Location: Reveals exact location of creature or object.
Moment of Prescience: You gain insight bonus on single attack roll, check, or save.
Prying Eyes, Greater: As prying eyes, but eyes have true seeing.

I am thinking moment of prescience, although all are awesome.
While I like Prying Eyes, the primary reason you, as a wizard, want to see something? Is to target it. You can't with this. Discern Location? Stopped by spells at this level. MoP? I'll concede, is amazing.


LVL9:
Foresight: “Sixth sense” warns of impending danger.

Only one spell, but one of the most awesome spells in existance... definitely worth a daily slot...Agreed.

So there is at least one awesome spell per level that is definitely worth a daily slot...
I intentionally avoid divination usually because it just seems... wrong to take. Same reason I don't play a chain tripper or some other builds... but I am really tempted to play a dedicated diviner now.Too many of them are situational to justify. For example, Summon Monster can get many of them.

[Gamerlord]

It DOES show how incompetent WOTC playtesters are.....

[Runestar]

Divination is useful. Only problem is I would never memorise them in my slots when I could be filling them with more useful spells.

The only way you will catch me casting divination spells is if the DM allows the spontaneous divination variant from complete champion. :smallamused:

[Foryn Gilnith]

To me this sounds like WOTC saying that divination is the worst (by far) school.

No, I just think it sounds like WotC doesn't want diviners to ban two schools. I don't really read any meaning into it, the same way I don't read meaning into the HD cap of skeletons. That's just me, though. Return to your discussion.

[Gorbash]

If you're a smart player, you'll never ban divination. It's one of the best schools and one of the reasons of why wizards are overpowered. At low levels it's just useful, but once you reach beyond 10th level, you'll crack up your DM's adventures.

Why is that a good thing? That's why I never dable too much in Divination, it can ruin games. What fun would combat be if you knew every single time what are you fighting against? If you're playing Adventure Paths or similar, it's the equivalent of flipping through adventure yourself.

[Dragonmuncher]

The Core Div spells are... ok. Some are great, some decidedly less so. What about splatbooks? I'd imagine in all those books combined, there are at least a few awesome divination spells suitable for a specialist?

[Starbuck_II]

There is a +10 vs SR spell in Complete Mage. Swift action to cast.

[Eldariel]

Divination Guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.msg8065#msg8065) lists a bunch of Divinations from various sources, but unfortunately the number of options on higher levels is still pitifully small.

It's missing...Eye of Power [SC] and Fiendish Clarify [BoVD] and that's it for level 7+ Divinations. Eye of Power is pretty cool, but it's a 9th level spell and MUCH weaker than equivalent Illusions.


On the other hand, I'd always want Greater Scrying available. There's a reason it's called "Scry'n'Die" after all...

[taltamir]

Is there a single core spell you DON'T think is awesome?
The entire school of evocation with the exception of contingency and walls/cage of force. Also a variety of spells from a variety of schools.


Look, those spells have their uses, but they're situational in the extreme. If you were playing a wizard with just those spells, I think most parties would boot you on grounds of uselessness.
At low levels I am just an archer anyways.
As a normal wizard, it will be these spells in my bonus slots, and spells like haste, enlarge person, and glitterdust in normal slots.
At the game world where all wizards are limited to one school only, being the only one with divination rocks as long as the DM doesn't stealth nerf it... sure in combat I am a so so archer (and remember, only transmuters get to fly, etc)... but out of combat I can tell the party what they will be facing every day... it is the difference between life and death, it is being the ultimate scout.


At low levels specialising in Divination is a poor choice because the low-level Divinations are too specialised and just aren't necessary. See Invisibility isn't worth preparing every day unless you expect to run into invisible enemies every day.

At low levels glitterdust is the only spell worth casting. Grease is nice too but situational:
although shaped grease to drop 4x10 foot circles in a hallway someone is escaping through is hilarious... make 4 saves or fall and we catch you :p. And the best uses for grease are to grease a buddy to help him escape a grapple, or to grease a weapon to make the enemy drop it.

Low level blasting is actually inferior to shooting a crossbow... etc.
Magic starts coming into its own when you get 3rd level spells and learn the all mighty haste.

[ericgrau]

mmm, that is one way to interpret it... although I thought their intent was "it is unfair to allow you to ban such a worthless school for extra power" rather then "it will be crippling to ban because of must have spells so we must forbid banning it, but it will be worthless to specialize because most spell levels don't have worthwhile spells, only a few levels do, so we forbid it because it will be bad choice"

I mean, specializing in divination sounds better then specializing in evocation. And WOTC banning it because it will not be sufficiently useless seems uncharacteristic... I mean, they allow turning. and seem to encourage the storm wind fallacy of sacrificing power for "role playing"

As for spells. I actually wonder if I would. I am going to try that right now:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#firstLevelSorcererWizardS pells

LVL1:
Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages.
Detect Secret Doors: Reveals hidden doors within 60 ft.
Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Identify M: Determines properties of magic item.
True Strike: +20 on your next attack roll.

Aside from identify and detect undead (which are useful, but situational), I would want all the other 3 memorized every day, always.

LVL2:
Detect Thoughts: Allows “listening” to surface thoughts.
Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
See Invisibility: Reveals invisible creatures or objects.

Ok those are all freaking awesome. I want to memorize all of them, multiple times...

LVL3:
Arcane Sight: Magical auras become visible to you.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: Hear or see at a distance for 1 min./level.
Tongues: Speak any language.

Clairaudience is fairly limited use (visible sensor, limited range, short duration, long casting time... its only redeeming factor is that you do not need a line of sight to location...
the rest are awesome.

LVL4:
Arcane Eye: Invisible floating eye moves 30 ft./round.
Detect Scrying: Alerts you of magical eavesdropping.
Locate Creature: Indicates direction to familiar creature.
Scrying F: Spies on subject from a distance.

All are awesome spells, I will want detect scrying and scrying prepared daily. the rest situationally.

LVL5:
Contact Other Plane: Lets you ask question of extraplanar entity.
Prying Eyes: 1d4 +1/level floating eyes scout for you.
Telepathic Bond: Link lets allies communicate.

All awesome... I will go for telepathic bond.

LVL6:
Analyze Dweomer F: Reveals magical aspects of subject.
Legend Lore M F: Lets you learn tales about a person, place, or thing.
True Seeing M: Lets you see all things as they really are.

True seeing, daily.

LVL7:
Arcane Sight, Greater: As arcane sight, but also reveals magic effects on creatures and objects.
Scrying, Greater: As scrying, but faster and longer.
Vision M X: As legend lore, but quicker and strenuous.

greater scrying and greater arcane sight are both worth a slot every single day of my wizard's life.

LVL8:
Discern Location: Reveals exact location of creature or object.
Moment of Prescience: You gain insight bonus on single attack roll, check, or save.
Prying Eyes, Greater: As prying eyes, but eyes have true seeing.

I am thinking moment of prescience, although all are awesome.

LVL9:
Foresight: “Sixth sense” warns of impending danger.

Only one spell, but one of the most awesome spells in existance... definitely worth a daily slot...

So there is at least one awesome spell per level that is definitely worth a daily slot...
I intentionally avoid divination usually because it just seems... wrong to take. Same reason I don't play a chain tripper or some other builds... but I am really tempted to play a dedicated diviner now.

In our game varient of single school "wizards" only, the abjuration + divination are a single school right? I am actually really interested in playing one in a party. If you don't mind and will allow useful divinations, I would like to make one if my cleric bites the dust.



you can use spellcraft, read magic just means you automatically succeed your spellcraft check to decipher a spell.



lolermao!
I literally laughed my ass off (someone dial 911, I am bleeding a lot!)

I'm with Runestar on this.

You only get 4 spells per level, castable once each. Maybe 1-2 more with a high int. True strike, scry, true seeing, moment of prescience and foresight are the only ones on that list which you might use every day. Quickened true strike might be worth something at high levels, but otherwise they're merely ok and far from essential. The rest are good only on scrolls or after you find your target first and then prepare the spells. Or otherwise with a very well thought out plan and lots of extra spell slots. Maybe a wand. Otherwise you're likely to not use them at all meaning lots of wasted spell slots. This is precisely why divination is the worst by far. If you could cast every spell at will without burning spell slots it might be great but 90% of the time any given divination spell is useless or minimally useful from only 1 casting.

If playing a wizard and allowed to ban divination, I might be tempted not to ban it only so I could use the right scrolls and a couple spells tucked away in my spellbook for odd situations. Even then I could live without it. And if there was a cleric or just about any other caster in the party, I wouldn't be able to ban divination fast enough. As a sorcerer almost nothing short of detect magic would get within a mile of my spell list, but I'd still carry several divination scrolls.

[Pigkappa]

LVL4:
Arcane Eye: Invisible floating eye moves 30 ft./round.
Detect Scrying: Alerts you of magical eavesdropping.
Locate Creature: Indicates direction to familiar creature.
Scrying F: Spies on subject from a distance.

All are awesome spells, I will want detect scrying and scrying prepared daily. the rest situationally.


Yeah, well, you'll probably want Dimension Door too. And Charm Monster, and maybe greater Invisibility or Shadow Conjuration, and definitely Enervation, maybe Fear, and most likely Polymorph (if that isn't banned). Some of those Divination spells are nice, but definitely situational. We can say the same for all spell levels, except maybe for 1 (True Strike) and 6 (True Seeing).

Divination is a good school, but IMHO having a bonus Divination spell slot for each spell level isn't as good as having one for another school, except Evocation.


Edit: ninja'd, first time it happens :smallfrown:

[Jayabalard]

Doesn't that specifically enhance plot when DM doesn't need to give you clues; you can dig 'em out for yourself, AND you have more of an idea on WHY what happens so DM doesn't need to explain out-of-game why so many seemingly illogical events took place. As a DM, I utilize player Divinations as a tool.You need to read the context... he's making response to someone who suggests that divination is "one of the reasons of why wizards are overpowered [because] once you reach beyond 10th level, you'll crack up your DM's adventures." as if this is somehow a good thing to be doing.

[Eldariel]

I'm with Runestar on this.

You only get 4 spells per level, castable once each. Maybe 1-2 more with a high int. True strike, scry, true seeing, moment of prescience and foresight are the only ones on that list which you might use every day. Quickened true strike might be worth something at high levels, but otherwise they're merely ok and far from essential. The rest are good only on scrolls or after you find your target first and then prepare the spells. Or otherwise with a very well thought out plan and lots of extra spell slots. Maybe a wand. Otherwise you're likely to not use them at all meaning lots of wasted spell slots. This is precisely why divination is the worst by far. If you could cast every spell at will without burning spell slots it might be great but 90% of the time any given divination spell is useless or minimally useful from only 1 casting.

If playing a wizard and allowed to ban divination, I might be tempted not to ban it only so I could use the right scrolls and a couple spells tucked away in my spellbook for odd situations. Even then I could live without it. And if there was a cleric or just about any other caster in the party, I wouldn't be able to ban divination fast enough. As a sorcerer almost nothing short of detect magic would get within a mile of my spell list, but I'd still carry several divination scrolls.

No Contact Other Plane? That spell is ridic. good and Wizard/Sorc-specific. Easily the best Divination in the game IMHO. Use it every day, figure out what you'll fight tomorrow, which spells are optimal, when you'll be attacked, where the sought object is, etc.

I definitely find True Strike, Greater Scrying, Greater Arcane Sight (on those levels, that information can be hugely important), Moment of Prescience, Greater Prying Eyes & See Invisibility (at the levels where Greater Invisibility becomes accessible, preparing this doesn't really cost you much and should save your life) all worth at least considering, and in many cases, preparing.

Having played Divination specialist, I didn't feel like I was wasting the extra spell slots even though they didn't have direct combat application, and it allowed me to save a bunch on various scrolls (and of course, cast them on my CL to maintain e.g. See Invisibility all dungeon). Personally, I'm a huge fan of Greater Prying Eyes about 100-200' in front of me whenever in any sort of dungeon settings; they last hours/level so they're pretty maintainable. Their True Seeing is very key when not wanting to waste money on actually casting said spell.

[Saph]

No Contact Other Plane? That spell is ridic. good and Wizard/Sorc-specific. Easily the best Divination in the game IMHO. Use it every day, figure out what you'll fight tomorrow, which spells are optimal, when you'll be attacked, where the sought object is, etc.

Uh, I really don't think so. Firstly, CoP comes with a risk of lobotomising yourself if you fail. Secondly, you can never count on any answer to be accurate, so any response you get is no more than a probability. Thirdly, you're going to bore the rest of the party out of their minds as you waste time quizzing the DM about stuff you could find out more quickly by actually participating in the adventure. I would seriously consider teamkilling a Wiz/Sorc who insisted on casting this every day.


I definitely find True Strike, Greater Scrying, Greater Arcane Sight (on those levels, that information can be hugely important), Moment of Prescience, Greater Prying Eyes & See Invisibility (at the levels where Greater Invisibility becomes accessible, preparing this doesn't really cost you much and should save your life) all worth at least considering, and in many cases, preparing.

Meh, most of those are too high level to be practical in most games. And I've never seen any reason to bother preparing True Strike, since it's one of the few spells that gains absolutely no benefit from being cast at a higher CL. Just carry a few scrolls of it around for the rare cases when it's worth spending a standard action to land a hit. The only situation in which I really like the spell is when I'm playing a Sorcerer and can combine it with Arcane Fusion.

[Noble Savant]

I would like to point out that Foresight is a pretty weak spell for a level 9 slot. You're stopping time with these spells. Being forewarned for 10 minutes/Level is hardly going to make you invincible.

[Crow]

Uh, I really don't think so. Firstly, CoP comes with a risk of lobotomising yourself if you fail. Secondly, you can never count on any answer to be accurate, so any response you get is no more than a probability. Thirdly, you're going to bore the rest of the party out of their minds as you waste time quizzing the DM about stuff you could find out more quickly by actually participating in the adventure. I would seriously consider teamkilling a Wiz/Sorc who insisted on casting this every day.


Well to be fair, the spell can be ok, if the entire team takes part in the questioning. That way you make it a group activity, rather than a "rest of the group goes for pizza" moment. Plus, you can use verifying questions to determine how accurate your information is if you desire.

However, the risk of rolling a 1 and becoming a commoner for a couple weeks is why our group doesn't use it all the time, and why I laugh when it gets brought up in the "invincible wizard" threads.

edit: Foresight is just the enabler that allows you to never be flat-footed, allowing celerity cheese or contingency combos to make you always go first, or un-catchable.

[The Glyphstone]

Why would you ever risk becoming a Commoner? It's not difficult to have an Int mod anywhere from +7 to +10 at high levels, and if they really need an accurate answer, it might be worth blowing a Moment of Prescience on. Remember that Ability checks, like skill checks, do not auto-fail on ones unless houseruled, that's only attack rolls and saving throws.

[Saph]

Why would you ever risk becoming a Commoner? It's not difficult to have an Int mod anywhere from +7 to +10 at high levels, and if they really need an accurate answer, it might be worth blowing a Moment of Prescience on. Remember that Ability checks, like skill checks, do not auto-fail on ones unless houseruled, that's only attack rolls and saving throws.

Ability checks don't auto-fail on 1s, true - and they can't be boosted by Moment of Prescience either. Moment of Prescience works on opposed ability and skill checks.

[Crow]

Even with a mod of +10, you have a 25% chance of becoming a commoner for 5 weeks if you consort with outer plane denizens.

[The Glyphstone]

Ability checks don't auto-fail on 1s, true - and they can't be boosted by Moment of Prescience either. Moment of Prescience works on opposed ability and skill checks.

I stand corrected on the MoP.

But if you restrict yourself to Demi-deities, you can't turn yourself into a commoner no matter how hard you try, with a DC10. It's only a 50% chance of accurate answers, and a 20% chance of a lie, but you can cast the spell multiple times to get different demi-deities and cross-reference their answers if it's important that you know the truth.

[Noble Savant]

edit: Foresight is just the enabler that allows you to never be flat-footed, allowing celerity cheese or contingency combos to make you always go first, or un-catchable.

That *is* pretty nice, but the spell's duration puts a slight crimp on that in my opinion.


I stand corrected on the MoP.
But if you restrict yourself to Demi-deities, you can't turn yourself into a commoner no matter how hard you try, with a DC10. It's only a 50% chance of accurate answers, and a 20% chance of a lie, but you can cast the spell multiple times to get different demi-deities and cross-reference their answers if it's important that you know the truth.

That sounds like it would be difficult to do well, not to mention be very expensive in terms of spells.

[deuxhero]

If I wanted to use Contact other plane, I'd pick up an imp familiar (ot full rainment of the four) and use the same but better SLA it has.

[Roderick_BR]

She's talking about free spells LEARNED. That's the other effect of specialization. Though to be fair, on those levels you generally should have access to all spells you want through money anyways.

And even non-Core actually adds pitifully few Divinations for high levels. There's Hindsight and yeah...
Actually, from the normal 2 levels learned, one of them HAS to be from your specialist school, so it's more a nerf (you are forced to learn it, instead of learning something more useful if you, for example, already have the spells you want for your chosen school).

[taltamir]

oooh, or lesser planar binding to summon an imp and make him use commune.

[deuxhero]

That also works (and it is cheeper).

[taltamir]

Heh...
is there anything that isn't better and cheaper to summon some creature to do it for you?

[deuxhero]

Breathing? ?

[Kallisti]

WotC wrote core, and many of the splatbooks, on the premise that wizards were primarily blasters, with some secondary battlefield control and utility.

Divination, largely usable only outside of combat, is really weak by that standard.

It's just not the standard most optimizers use.

[Eldariel]

Actually, from the normal 2 levels learned, one of them HAS to be from your specialist school, so it's more a nerf (you are forced to learn it, instead of learning something more useful if you, for example, already have the spells you want for your chosen school).

Isn't that what I said? When you know all the worthwhile high level Divinations, you gotta learn Detect Secret Doors or something. Not that big a problem though since you can just buy scrolls and scribe the spells you actually want; the level-up spells are more a factor in the early game.