Looking might be unnecessary *spoiler*

[Half-blood]

Could Xykon conceivably craft a new phylactery? I don't believe that there are any rules prohibiting it. It could even be sort of a contingency plan. If Xykon was ever destroyed along with his NEW phylactery, he could conceivably come back.

[Keris]

According to Libris Mortis, "A lich can construct only a single phylactery. A lich whose phylactery is destroyed suffers no harm, but cannot construct a new one".

[Optimystik]

Judging from Xykon's distress, it's pretty safe to say he has no recourse but to find the existing one.

[factotum]

I'd have to agree with that. Xykon wouldn't have gone so ape over the loss if he could just craft another one--it's not like he has much better to do with his time, after all.

[Sewblon]

I'd have to agree with that. Xykon wouldn't have gone so ape over the loss if he could just craft another one--it's not like he has much better to do with his time, after all.

Besides, if he could, he would be more or less unbeatable, which would make generating any kind of tension either very contrived, or very complicated.

[Asta Kask]

According to Libris Mortis, "A lich can construct only a single phylactery. A lich whose phylactery is destroyed suffers no harm, but cannot construct a new one".

Exactly. This isn't Harry Potter.

[Hannes]

Isn't the phylactery where the lich holds his soul? So to make another phylactery he would have to have a second soul?

[Itamarcu]

Exactly. This isn't Harry Potter.

Well, if Xykon had 7 phylacteries, at least one was gone - When Larry Gardener died.

[Kish]

Isn't the phylactery where the lich holds his soul? So to make another phylactery he would have to have a second soul?
No, Xykon's soul is in his body until his body is destroyed. Then it goes to his phylactery.

[Ancalagon]

I bet Xykon doesn't know and doesn't want to find out if he could make a new one.
What is or is not possible does not matter as long as he's just a bit too scared to put this to an actual test.

[derfenrirwolv]

Libris mortis isn't core, then again the question is unanswered in core. It seems that xykon either can't, or doesn't know he can, make one. The only person we know who CAN make one is redcloak. And the most likely scenario for something happening to xykons phylactery is... redcloak himself.

[SaintRidley]

The only way something like that happens is if Xykon goes ahead and tries to make himself a Demilich. Not going to happen, though.

[Ancalagon]

Libris mortis isn't core, then again the question is unanswered in core. It seems that xykon either can't, or doesn't know he can, make one. The only person we know who CAN make one is redcloak. And the most likely scenario for something happening to xykons phylactery is... redcloak himself.

Unclear. Recloak once had to help Xykon to make a phylactery, but it's pretty likely Xykon learned how to do it on his own by that. That he ONCE needed Redcloak does not mean he'll need him again.

In fact, Xykon has been shown to be a masterful item-crafter himself since then (all the items he made in Azure City during waiting). After he spend some 8 hours per day during the months in AC, it's pretty unlikely he would still needs assistance for another phylactery (IF he can make one).

I think it comes either down do "he knows (or believes) he only has one phylacters" or "he does not know about that but does not want to find out".

After we saw all the protections that are on the thing it might be even possible for Redcloak to "simply do" something to it.

Xykon said "WE protected it", this indicates that at least he and Redcloak put wards on it. Redcloak might be able to dispel the ones he put on it, but in the case of Xykon he still has to overcome the DC of a level 28ish pure caster.
Even if Redcloak hits level 18 or 19 until then it would still take some time and work.

[factotum]

Libris mortis isn't core

Neither is the Electric Orb spell Tsukiko used against Haley, or the Eye of Fear and Flame created by Redcloak. Saying "it isn't core" does not equate to "it isn't used in the strip".

[silversaraph]

No, Xykon's soul is in his body until his body is destroyed. Then it goes to his phylactery.

Xykon has a soul? :smallconfused:

[factotum]

Xykon has a soul? :smallconfused:

Yes. Why do you think he doesn't? Everyone in Stickworld has a soul, no matter if they're good or evil.

[Morquard]

From what I know, even those people (or most of them anyway) that say "Libris Mortis is not core" etc, and that he can make a new phylactery, agree that this is only the case if his first one is actually destroyed.

Its not destroyed, its lost.

Otherwise any Lich would be stupid if he didn't spend the first 100 years of his unlife making phylacteries and spreading them all over the world, one of the 10000 of them he has by then gotta have to survive anything.

No he can only have one at a time. If he can make another one if the first one gets destroyed... who knows? But it doesn't matter, at least for now.

[Ashram]

The only way something like that happens is if Xykon goes ahead and tries to make himself a Demilich. Not going to happen, though.

Yes, because we totally need another Acererak. >.>

Only Xykon isn't a tiefling and a total bad ass.

[Morquard]

Isn't a Demi Lich just a floating skull?

SOD:
I mean he was already pissed when he noticed he can't taste coffee anymore. How much more would he be pissed if he can't even crush someone's throat with his fingers anymore?

[BatRobin]

Well, if Xykon had 7 phylacteries, at least one was gone - When Larry Gardener died.

2nd when the Locket Talisman broke.

[TheSummoner]

Does that mean the Greenhilt Sword, Serini's Diary, and Redcloak are numbers 3, 4, and 5?

[Pyron]

Yes. Why do you think he doesn't? Everyone in Stickworld has a soul, no matter if they're good or evil.

Unless you get tickled by the Snarl. :smallsmile:

[Boogastreehouse]

Neither is the Electric Orb spell Tsukiko used against Haley, or the Eye of Fear and Flame created by Redcloak. Saying "it isn't core" does not equate to "it isn't used in the strip".

Interestingly enough, though, in both of the examples you've given, it was deliberately pointed out that they were not core. Haley expresses surprise at the introduction of non-core spells, and Redcloak is shown reading the source book that contains the no-core monster he intends to create.

It seems that Rich is determined to maintain a clear distinction when he deviates significantly away from core, and by significantly I mean for more than just a quick throw-away joke.

[veti]

I think it comes either down do "he knows (or believes) he only has one phylacters" or "he does not know about that but does not want to find out".

Third possibility: he could make another one, but at a colossal XP cost. No-one likes losing levels, if there's any way at all to avoid it.

[grautry]

Could Xykon conceivably craft a new phylactery? I don't believe that there are any rules prohibiting it. It could even be sort of a contingency plan. If Xykon was ever destroyed along with his NEW phylactery, he could conceivably come back.

There's an epic spell that lets you split your phylactery into multiple pieces. It's not that tough to cast either(Spellcraft DC 30).

Frankly, if I was an epic lich caster, the first thing I'd look into after learning epic magic would be "can I make my extremely well protected extremely important shiny bauble even more protected, say, by turning it into multiple shiny baubles?".

But really, if Xykon used all the resources available to him as an epic sorcerer, then he'd be invulnerable and we'd have no dramatic tension whatsoever. :smallwink:

[factotum]

It seems that Rich is determined to maintain a clear distinction when he deviates significantly away from core, and by significantly I mean for more than just a quick throw-away joke.

OK, then, you believe the wizard who teleported the Order to Cliffport was around 18th level, then? That's the only way by Core he could have teleported himself and six other people.

[Katana_Geldar]

Yes, because we totally need another Acererak. >.>

Only Xykon isn't a tiefling and a total bad ass.

I was wondering if he was trying to go that way with the whole souls in gems sort of thing, isn't that how a demilich is made?

[Ashram]

A demilich is just a lich who's so unbelievably powerful that they don't need their undead body anymore, and their soul is free to travel across the cosmos... Or in Acererak's, the Negative Energy Plane, in order to merge with it and basically become an undead god of evil negative energy. There's a whole truckload of story aside from that, which would take me too long to look up again. I don't think there's an actual method to becoming a demilich, though. (Never mind, found the SRD for it. I must say, I liked the 3.0 version of it, where there was no story, it just meant that a lich had become so powerful that they had ascended.)

I believe Acererak, when you fight him in Return to the Tomb of Horrors, is near epic/epic.

[SaintRidley]

I was wondering if he was trying to go that way with the whole souls in gems sort of thing, isn't that how a demilich is made?

Not quite, though as a flavour thing I tend to go with requiring the eight prospective soul gems to each have a soul trapped within. The souls fuel the transformation.

[Herald Alberich]

Does that mean the Greenhilt Sword, Serini's Diary, and Redcloak are numbers 3, 4, and 5?

The 6th is the Ming.

[RebelRogue]

Yes, because we totally need another Acererak. >.>

Only Xykon isn't a tiefling and a total bad ass.
Wasn't Acererak an aasimar in life?

[Cisturn]

no he was a teifling

[veti]

Except that Acererak first appeared in Tomb of Horrors, in 1978, and the tiefling race wasn't invented until 2e appeared, more than ten years later.

Bloody revisionist supplements...

[derfenrirwolv]

Neither is the Electric Orb spell Tsukiko used against Haley, or the Eye of Fear and Flame created by Redcloak. Saying "it isn't core" does not equate to "it isn't used in the strip".

No, but it does mean "that may not be how ootsverse works". We know that rich generally follows D&D rules, we don't have a pattern of him following 3rd party material.





Unclear. Recloak once had to help Xykon to make a phylactery, but it's pretty likely Xykon learned how to do it on his own by that. That he ONCE needed Redcloak does not mean he'll need him again.

Xykon meets all the requirements to make it (caster level 11+ and the create item feat) but may not know how to make it. Xykons lack of knowledge: religion means that Redcloak could technically know more about liches than xykon.



I think it comes either down do "he knows (or believes) he only has one phylacters" or "he does not know about that but does not want to find out".

which.. is pretty much exactly what i said.




Xykon said "WE protected it", this indicates that at least he and Redcloak put wards on it. Redcloak might be able to dispel the ones he put on it, but in the case of Xykon he still has to overcome the DC of a level 28ish pure caster.
Even if Redcloak hits level 18 or 19 until then it would still take some time and work.

Since redcloak isn't around xkyon 24 7, he can just wander off somewhere and toss the phylactery into a volacno (next to the ming)

[SoC175]

Well, there is an epic spell that allows a lich to have multiple phylacteries at the same time. However it's unlikely that Xykon knows this particular spell

[Sanguine]

Well, there is an epic spell that allows a lich to have multiple phylacteries at the same time. However it's unlikely that Xykon knows this particular spell

There's also the DemiLich route.

[factotum]

No, but it does mean "that may not be how ootsverse works". We know that rich generally follows D&D rules, we don't have a pattern of him following 3rd party material.


Really? I must have imagined the Electric Orb, the Eye of the Fear and Flame, the Huecuva, or even the Flumphs (who are not core 3rd edition monsters). Oh, and can you tell me where it gives the rules for airships and the Dashing Swordsman prestige class in the core rulebook?

[Narazil]

Really? I must have imagined the Electric Orb, the Eye of the Fear and Flame, the Huecuva, or even the Flumphs (who are not core 3rd edition monsters). Oh, and can you tell me where it gives the rules for airships and the Dashing Swordsman prestige class in the core rulebook?
Aren't flumphs from an older version of D&D?

[Manga Shoggoth]

Aren't flumphs from an older version of D&D?

Yup. They're from the original AD&D Fiend Folio (c)1980. So, incidentally, is the Eye of the Fear and Flame (which I noticed when looking up the Flumphs...)

[SaintRidley]

Yup. They're from the original AD&D Fiend Folio (c)1980. So, incidentally, is the Eye of the Fear and Flame (which I noticed when looking up the Flumphs...)

The Eye of Fear and Flame was updated to 3rd edition in the 3e Fiend Folio. Sadly, Flumphs weren't and were relegated to Dorukon's chamber of outdated monsters.

[Mystic Muse]

:smallconfused:Spell compendium is 3rd party?

[SaintRidley]

:smallconfused:Spell compendium is 3rd party?

3rd edition, 3rd party, what's the difference?

:smalltongue:

[Mystic Muse]

3rd edition, 3rd party, what's the difference?

:smalltongue:

one I'll use for characters the other I won't.

:smalltongue:

[derfenrirwolv]

Really? I must have imagined the Electric Orb, the Eye of the Fear and Flame, the Huecuva, or even the Flumphs (who are not core 3rd edition monsters). Oh, and can you tell me where it gives the rules for airships and the Dashing Swordsman prestige class in the core rulebook?

Thats a strawman. He references non core material, it doesn't mean he adheres to it for rules.

[Chronologist]

I have a question about Zykon's Phylachery.

When a lich is destroyed, isn't it supposed to reappear next to its phylactery? If so, couldn't Zykon simply destroy himself again, then reform over 1d10 days ? Sure, he loses some time he could be spending going to the next gate, but his immortality is virtually assured.

[Kish]

I have a question about Zykon's Phylachery.

When a lich is destroyed, isn't it supposed to reappear next to its phylactery? If so, couldn't Zykon simply destroy himself again, then reform over 1d10 days ?
Tsukiko made that exact suggestion, remember? Xykon's response was that he wasn't going to run the risk of reforming in a sea monster's stomach.

[Chronologist]

Oops, I forgot about that.

Personally I think the risk of that happening is worth it, but I guess that's why I'm not an epic lich sorcerer :smalltongue .

On a side note, I'm surprised Zykon had the forethought to design the Cloister epic spell, yet failed to anticipate needing another Epic Spell to bypass it.

[Gift Jeraff]

Oops, I forgot about that.

Personally I think the risk of that happening is worth it, but I guess that's why I'm not an epic lich sorcerer :smalltongue .

On a side note, I'm surprised Zykon had the forethought to design the Cloister epic spell, yet failed to anticipate needing another Epic Spell to bypass it.

Dorukan designed it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) Also, there seem to be very little epic level people alive at one time, so it makes sense to not really expect that.

[Degnared]

I'm inclined to believe / interpret that a lich only gets the one phylactery ever, even reading the rules as written. But I could see an argument for a lich being able to construct a new one, the process of which would de-phylacterize the original.

Also:


On a side note, I'm surprised Zykon had the forethought to design the Cloister epic spell, yet failed to anticipate needing another Epic Spell to bypass it.

There are a lot more abjurations than just the Cloister on the phylactery.

[derfenrirwolv]

On a side note, I'm surprised Zykon had the forethought to design the Cloister epic spell, yet failed to anticipate needing another Epic Spell to bypass it.

He didn't design it, he cripped it off of Durokan

[Larkspur]

Frankly, if I was an epic lich caster, the first thing I'd look into after learning epic magic would be "can I make my extremely well protected extremely important shiny bauble even more protected, say, by turning it into multiple shiny baubles?".

This would imply that Xykon would actually have to do some research. Not going to happen.

Redcloak may know, but Redcloak actually has a pretty strong incentive to keep the knowledge to himself. SoDThere's no percentage for him in keeping Xykon alive if he himself is killed, since the Plan needs him (or another Mantlebearer) to perform the gate ritual. So he doesn't need a contingency plan in case he gets killed and something happens to his holy symbol. And if Xykon's got extra phylacteries hidden in random places, then the Dark One can't just smite him and eliminate the threat of revenge when they finish the ritual. It's very much in Redcloak's interest for Xykon's only phylactery to be the one hanging around his neck.

[SoC175]

The Eye of Fear and Flame was updated to 3rd edition in the 3e Fiend Folio. Sadly, Flumphs weren't and were relegated to Dorukon's chamber of outdated monsters. The flumph was actually officially updated to 3.5 in an issue of Dungeon Magazine (and before that inofficially updated to 3.0 in a 3rd party monster supplement). Last April the flumph was also officially upgraded to 4e (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/FoolsGroveDelve.pdf).

[factotum]

This would imply that Xykon would actually have to do some research. Not going to happen.


It already HAS happened--remember "Xykon's Moderately-Escapable Forcecage"? Not to mention that he's already said he can only make magic items for 8 hours in 24--he needs something to occupy the rest of his time!