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Satyr
2010-01-09, 07:54 AM
Next wee, I will play again in a game of D&D 4. I still don't the like the system very much, but as usual, the involved people are more important than the played game, and the Gamemaster in particular is a good friend and a good GM, so I think it is worth to try the game again. Besides, the campaign idea sounds like loads of fun; it is based on the - excellent - Prophesies of Pendor mod for Mount & Blade. The game will be very, very low on magic (as in: There are no spellcasters except a few people playing arond with rituals, non-humans are very, very rare and magical items are a legend, at best). Besdies, Nico, said GM wants to try my houserules fo D&D 4, and so I really couldn't say no. I am actually looking forward to it.

the problem is: I have the books with me, but apart from the PHB I, I have no idea how to build a decent character. I know that the other characters are a rogue, who dabbles in "Witchcraft" (warlock multiclass and ritual magic), and a half-elf warlord, but i don't know her focus. I wanted to play a fighter, because a big meatshield seemed like a good idea for this group, and protect the rest of the group with a really impressive greatsword. I know that the other players are ususally making characters who are not directly optimised for all eternity, but are usually quite competent, so I don't want to play a baggage character, besides, we are only three PCs, so everybody must count.
Characters are level 5, I will start with no wealth or equiment whatsoever (being a former prisoner of war) and have 32 points to buy abilities. The character pretty much has to be a human, and gets a nice addtional +2 bonus to Nature and Endurance, because of his homeland and culture. So, what would be some good ideas to actually build this character? The books I have at hand are the two PHB's, and martial, divine and primal power.

hamishspence
2010-01-09, 08:46 AM
It is hard to make a character badly underpowered in 4E, thankfully. There may be bad options, but mostly such a character will not lag far behind the others in power.

If "no equipment" means "no weapons at all" though, martial characters, and some primal characters (barbarian, warden) will be in a bit of a problem at first.

Tehnar
2010-01-09, 08:58 AM
A few thoughts:

-for your weapon I would look up the fullblade (from AV 1). The greatsword is sort of meh, you are better off with the bastard sword

-get 20 STR at level 1 (18+2 racial). Everything a fighter does requires hitting. I would even recommend that you think about increasing your strength even further if your DM allows it (as you have a greater point buy)

- a 12 starting dex will allow you to qualify for all heavy blade feats if you increase it every chance you get. Wherever to put more there or not depends on:

- the monsters your DM will throw at you. If he is using stock MM monsters then there is no point in increasing your defenses. Without magic items you will get hit almost every time something attacks you. Keep you STR maxed, your DEX at 12, and invest everything else you can in CON. If your DM will be modifying your opposition then keep your CON at 12 and increase your DEX as much as you can (but not at the expense of STR)

- if you want to protect your party pick multiattack powers: rain of steel, sweeping blow, passing attack

- its always good to have a backup way of healing so comeback strike and a warlord or cleric multiclass are never bad choices

- I would suggest feats: toughness, weapon expertise (heavy blades), warlord multiclass and human perseverance

- on level 6 pick the feat (forget its name) that gives you +2 bonus on your saving throws when you don't have action surges

Xallace
2010-01-09, 09:37 AM
Well, you say Greatsword, so I'm guessing you want to go a two-handed route? I'd say pick up Cleave, and scour your exploit list for other powers that benefit two-handers.

If you decide to stick with a heavy blade, get your Dex up to 17 by Epic levels, but otherwise it's your choice between Wis, Con, and Dex. Con will boost your HP, which is nice, but remember that you get a lot anyway. Dex improves your Reflex and initiative, but also helps qualify for feats and improve powers that utilize heavy blades. Wisdom, aside from bumping up what is otherwise a shoddy Will, boosts your Opportunity Attack Rolls and can help you qualify for fun fighter feats (like adding your Wisdom to damage on Opportunity Attacks, woohoo!).

You can take a feat to change your "+Wis to OA" class feature into "+Dex to OA," which will help your MAD but also loses out on certain options.

As was mentioned, the Fullblade is Greatsword+, so if you want to spend the feat (I think it's a Superior Weapon...), go for it.

Featwise, I agree with Weapon Expertise (PHBII), and Toughness and Improved Initiative (both PHB) are never bad options. Opportunistic Blade (PHB) can help a little, and once you hit 11th Heavy Blade Opportunity (PHB) is a must. I also recommend Action Surge (PHB) for awesome-heroic goodness.

Mando Knight
2010-01-09, 12:21 PM
-get 20 STR at level 1 (18+2 racial). Everything a fighter does requires hitting. I would even recommend that you think about increasing your strength even further if your DM allows it (as you have a greater point buy)

Pretty much wrong, often even with the ridiculously increased point buy you've been allotted. 20 Strength vs 18 Strength is only a 1 to-hit/damage difference and kills your secondary abilities under normal point buy. Starting with a level 1 total of 18 is fine, and lets you pump Constitution, Dexterity, and Wisdom. Wisdom is important for guarding your Will, and Dexterity for Reflex (and AC if you're going with Hide rather than Scale), and Constitution gives you HP and surges.

I'd recommend grabbing 16s in Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom, a 14 in Constitution, a 10 in Charisma or Intelligence and an 8 in the other, then boost Strength with the Human racial bonus. This will let you take advantage of most of your class features and such relating to wielding a two-handed sword.

Moff Chumley
2010-01-09, 12:57 PM
I agree with Mando Knight. +1 to damage is not nearly as good as +1 to one of your defenses.

Shazbot79
2010-01-09, 01:01 PM
Off the top of my head I would say Action Surge, Human Perseverance and Agile Superiority for feats.

You'll also want a high DEX...because sword based exploits usually have a rider effect that keys of DEX.

tcrudisi
2010-01-09, 01:17 PM
I agree with Mando Knight. +1 to damage is not nearly as good as +1 to one of your defenses.

I agree... but this is about more than +1 damage; it is also about +1 to hit.

The OP has 32 points, yes? In that case, assuming human, I would do the following:

Str 18+2
Con 12
Dex 14
Int 8/10
Wis 16
Cha 8/10

Cha and Int are interchangeable. Pick one to be 8 and the other 10.

For a background, I'd take Auspicious Birth from Scales of War.

Why this array?: great ability to hit (maxed out Str), great ability to protect your allies (really high Wis). I'm not as big on Dex as everyone else. Sure, it helps Reflex and Init... but it won't help your AC if you are in heavy armor. Con is important for healing surges, but that's all it does for you (which is admittedly a lot more than Cha and Int).

You were correct in choosing Fighter for this party. If your Rogue is an Artful Dodger, well, maximizing hit is even better, as you guys will fly through the bad guys. Depending on how your DM runs marks (do they always attack you if you mark them? Or will he often ignore your mark to go attack someone squishier?), the Fighter is an amazing choice either way. If he ignores you to go after the Rogue, well, he's going to feel a world of hurt when he attacks the Rogue or shifts away. If he always attacks you, exploit this by having the Rogue incur OA's on his turn, so you can punish the foes for daring to attack someone else. Combine this with the Warlord (expecially if Tac) to give you extra attacks to mark more targets or the Rogue when he misses on his turn (to ensure Sneak Attack), and you've got a great 3-person group.

Tehnar
2010-01-09, 01:26 PM
I would go so far to say that except for some hyperspecialized builds (that get a lot of effects off their secondary stats, like orbizard) you should start with a 20 in your main stat.

Basically that is how the numbers and abilities are set up in 4e. I am playing a heavy blade fighter in a 4e campaign which started with 20,12,12,8,12,10 stat array. From my experience I often regretted not hitting (and the heavy blade fighter is the thing with the highest to hit vs AC amongst all other classes), and rarely it happened that something hit me exactly by one or two points of difference.

Basically you get these things from your secondary stats:

CON more hp, more healing surges, and bonus to skills- the HP difference is marginal at higher levels, you wont run out of healing surgess but ways of triggering them, and the bonus to skills is also marginal

DEX better reflex defense, better initiative- tough monsters will hit your reflex defense if its 2 points higher or lower (them hitting it on a 4 or 6 wont make much difference), and sometimes it is better to go after the monsters then before

WIS better will defense, better opportunity attacks- as with the reflex defense tough monsters will hit you and the to hit to opportunity attacks can be improved with feats (and mmost DMs will avoid provoking AoOs against the fighter anyway)

Artanis
2010-01-09, 01:54 PM
32 is an awful lot of points :smalleek:

Mando Knight
2010-01-09, 02:01 PM
I would go so far to say that except for some hyperspecialized builds (that get a lot of effects off their secondary stats, like orbizard) you should start with a 20 in your main stat.
The opportunity cost is too great. You're killing off your secondary stats for only +1 to hit, damage, and a single NAD. And when one of the defenses you're ignoring is Will, you're going to end up dazed or dominated a lot more frequently than usual... which is all kinds of bad for a Defender.

The bonuses aren't just to your NADs, either. Fighters might be the most SAD Defender if you pick the powers right, but many of their nastiest powers and feats require decent secondary stats, which can be a lot higher than if you splurge on 20 Strength out of the gate. Furthermore, you're a Fighter. When wielding your weapon of choice, you're already +1 to-hit ahead of a Paladin or Warden who invested the same amount of points into Strength, so you can afford slipping some points out of Strength and into your off-stats.

Artanis
2010-01-09, 02:04 PM
The opportunity cost is too great. You're killing off your secondary stats for only +1 to hit, damage, and a single NAD. And when one of the defenses you're ignoring is Will, you're going to end up dazed or dominated a lot more frequently than usual... which is all kinds of bad for a Defender.

The bonuses aren't just to your NADs, either. Fighters might be the most SAD Defender if you pick the powers right, but many of their nastiest powers and feats require decent secondary stats, which can be a lot higher than if you splurge on 20 Strength out of the gate. Furthermore, you're a Fighter. When wielding your weapon of choice, you're already +1 to-hit ahead of a Paladin or Warden who invested the same amount of points into Strength, so you can afford slipping some points out of Strength and into your off-stats.

He has 10 more points than standard. I don't think cost is that big an issue.

DJDizzy
2010-01-09, 02:09 PM
Atleast you dont have to go through the rigmalrol of playing a wizard starting with NO spells, no spellbook and the only way to gain spells is through scrolls. Oh and the usual gold accumulation is reduced by 200%.

Usually bonus to defenses are better early than bonuses to hit/damage.

Master_Rahl22
2010-01-09, 02:30 PM
I hope your DM is using the static bonuses the DMG recommends for low-magic campaigns, because the combat math just plain doesn't work if you don't have magic gear. You'll be hit all the time and hardly ever get to hit back. Aside from that, Fighter would certainly make a good addition to that group.

HMS Invincible
2010-01-09, 02:55 PM
Depending on how your DM runs marks (do they always attack you if you mark them? Or will he often ignore your mark to go attack someone squishier?), the Fighter is an amazing choice either way. If he ignores you to go after the Rogue, well, he's going to feel a world of hurt when he attacks the Rogue or shifts away. If he always attacks you, exploit this by having the Rogue incur OA's on his turn, so you can punish the foes for daring to attack someone else. Combine this with the Warlord (expecially if Tac) to give you extra attacks to mark more targets or the Rogue when he misses on his turn (to ensure Sneak Attack), and you've got a great 3-person group.

How good of an idea is it to purposely trigger an OA with a fighter rogue combo? You get 1 extra weapon of attack and your rogue has to suffer an attack? Is it worth it every time?

Lunix Vandal
2010-01-09, 03:18 PM
That's just it, though -- every class gets extra bonuses based on their offstats. I mean, seriously, this is just from casually looking through the Character Builder:

PH1:Clerics: A melee cleric still wants Wis to buff his healing powers. Several Wis-based powers have Cha-dependent side effects (like the healing from Astral Seal or the Pacifist Healer feat).
Fighters: Depending on your build, you want high Con/Dex/Wis to grab weapon-group-slash-fighting-style-specific feats. Putting those stats at the bare minimum to qualify for those feats is just begging for a kick to the NADs.
Paladins: Regardless of whether you're Str or Cha-based, you need Wis if you want to use Lay on Hands, Ardent Vow, or Virtue's Touch more than once per day. Oh, and you'll want high NADs lest you put the name of "Invince-adin" to shame.
Rangers: I'd like to see a TWF ranger take the heroic-tier TWF feats before paragon levels with a starting Dex of 12. Not that you'll live that long, what with how pitiful that'll make your AC and Reflex. And oh look, there's a bunch of attacks that get bonuses based on your Wis? Who knew!
Rogues: All three "Rogue Tactics" options are based on Cha/Str. Your attacks are based on Dex. Do the math.
Warlocks: Your secondary power effects are often tied to Int -- which includes nearly two-thirds of your options for first-level encounter powers, incidentally.
Warlords: Three of your "Presence" options and five of your possible at-wills have secondary effects tied to something that isn't your Strength. Did I mention that one of those five is the "the striker gets to attack it again, but adding my Int to the damage" attack?
Wizards: All of the Implement Mastery options besides Tome of Readiness are keyed to Con, Dex, or Wis. A mere +1 doesn't cut it.
PH2:Avengers: Wis primary, effects tied to Dex/Int -- including the damage bonus from Censure of Pursuit/Retribution.
Barbarians: Lessee, three of the Feral Might options are tied to Con/Cha. A Str-18 Con-18 build can get an instant +4 AC by picking up Hide Armor Expertise -- and that only goes up as you keep raising Con.
Bards: All three Virtue options are tied to -- guess what -- something that's not your Cha. Oh, and that applies to most of your options for rider effects, too.
Druids: Two of the three Aspects are tied to Con. And here we go again: Six of the nine options for your level 1 encounter powers have offstat-based riders. Let's not forget that Hide Armor Expertise lets a Wis-18 Con-18 Swarm Druid mimic the defining feature of a Guardian Druid (and do it better, for that matter, because of the swarm's resistance to melee/ranged without gaining vulnerability to area attacks in the process).
Invokers: Both PH2 Covenants are tied to Int/Con. And five-out-of-eight level 1 encounter powers have Int/Con-based riders. Sensing a trend here?
Shamans: Three of the Spirit Companions have Int/Con-based riders. Oh, and that Str 13/Con 18/Wis 18 (Dwarf) Shaman? Yeah, he picked up Hide Armor Proficiency and Hide Armor Expertise. (+5 AC in two feats? That gets better as you raise your Con? Gimme!)
Sorcerers: All four power sources have their damage buff based on Str/Dex. And also prod you towards taking powers with riders tied to those stats.
Wardens: Your AC is tied to your Con/Wis, and both PH2 Warden variants have their second wind riders tied to those stats as well. Also, you're a defender, so high AC and NADs might be important. :smalltongue:

DragonBaneDM
2010-01-09, 05:41 PM
a big meatshield seemed like a good idea for this group, and protect the rest of the group with a really impressive greatsword. I

Beautiful. Greatsword's amazing. I'm gonna recommend weapon spec. Being a Battlerager won't do much for your group, and you don't wanna sack your weapon. And the warlord's probably Inspiring or Bravura, which is great for you.

Oh, and pick up Rain of Steel. May not look like much, but trust me, it's beautiful. Also, you wanna get that 12 in Dex like previously stated, and of course you want your Con really high, around a 16 probably, but don't ignore Wisdom. It's a critical fighter ability score now.


How good of an idea is it to purposely trigger an OA with a fighter rogue combo? You get 1 extra weapon of attack and your rogue has to suffer an attack? Is it worth it every time?

If you were either Hybrid or half elf with Riposte Strike, I say you're golden.

CarpeGuitarrem
2010-01-09, 05:53 PM
How good of an idea is it to purposely trigger an OA with a fighter rogue combo? You get 1 extra weapon of attack and your rogue has to suffer an attack? Is it worth it every time?
I'd like to note that this won't always work. OAs are always optional. A creature may fall for this once, but not necessarily twice.

DragonBaneDM
2010-01-09, 05:55 PM
In which case you just got combat advantage. As long as the move serves a purpose other than provoking the OAs, then it's worth it.

Shardan
2010-01-09, 11:01 PM
I prefer sword and board, but if you're starting with nothing and have no opportunity to gain your equipment easily, try staff. with staff fighting feat its a double weapon and defensive. From the way youy're describing it, it might be a while before you even have armor and weapons. This will give you a free weapon and 1 point shield bonus and make 2 weapon moves available. When you level you can retrain staff fighting into something more long term. Having great sword expertise won't help if you can't get ahold of one.

Also, since you have the points, you can plan to be MAD and not worry. Wisdom gives bonuses to OA and with a feat to your Fighters Challenge hits.
Dex is a prereq for alot of feats, esp heavy blade and pole arm feats. One thing I do love about 4ed is that you can retrain as you go. start with your staff and staff fighting and evolve into the full fullblade fighter. Ask your DM whether or not you'll actually be allowed to earn equipment in a timely fashion. For stats I'd start 16 (+2 human to make 18) str and at least 14 in dex, wis, and con to cover NAD's, feats, and secondary stats. Choose two handed weapons for your fighter weapon talent.

Your feats, you can have fun with now and retrain into serious stuff when you get the EQ you'll have. Human Perseverance and Stubborn survivor stack giving you insane saving throw bonuses for this level though. Staff fighting gives a defensive weapon that you can use 2 handed weapon moves with and 2 weapon moves as a double weapon with as a basically free weapon (just farm one out of the woods)

Since your leader is a warlord and will need to be side by side with you, Sideways defense might be useful to give an AC boost to adjacent allies or Defensive resilience if your DM rules the defensive stat on your weapon equals a shield since it is a shield bonus.

If you can get a real weapon easily, skip staff fighting and go for expertise in your great sword. and multiclass warlord will give you a daily heal and an extra skill.

really, with 4e pick your base stuff carefully, and the rest can be retrained.. ;)

Mando Knight
2010-01-09, 11:07 PM
How good of an idea is it to purposely trigger an OA with a fighter rogue combo? You get 1 extra weapon of attack and your rogue has to suffer an attack? Is it worth it every time?

It works best if it's an Artful Dodger: they can tease the opponent with their invulnerable AC vs OAs.

Swordgleam
2010-01-10, 12:49 AM
I'd second the suggestion of taking warlord as a multiclass feat. Warlords don't have a ton of healing, and you don't have a cleric or a pally, so an extra heal per encounter will be nice for everyone. Plus, you get an extra skill. Fighters are short on those and you have a small party, so the more skills, the better.


I hope your DM is using the static bonuses the DMG recommends for low-magic campaigns, because the combat math just plain doesn't work if you don't have magic gear. You'll be hit all the time and hardly ever get to hit back.

This might be true in theory, but I've been throwing tough encounters at my low-magic group and they do fine except when they decide "let's all get flanked in the first two rounds" is an awesome strategy. It's only a +1 bonus every 5 levels that you get from the gear, plus a handful of powers that are nifty but not game-breaking.

Satyr
2010-01-10, 07:32 AM
thanks for all the answers. They were very helpfuil until know. Based on the different suggestions I came up with a buid like this for now:

STR 16 +2 (human) +1 (level)
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 12
WIS 14 +1 (level)
CHA 10

That's probably suboptimal, but leaving one ability at 8 with 32 points to improve them is a bit too muh minmaxing for my taste, and I don't like playing "stupid" characters and I talk too much anyway. I think the character will be able to do something, even with less strength than possible. It just feels a bit more rounded.

I take the Fighter Weapon Talent for two-handed weapons. I might not have any weapon at the moment, but I am confident that I will eventually get the ancestral full blade of my clan hinted in the background story I am currently developing.

As at will powers, I take Cleave, Reaping Strike and Footwork Lure. Tide of Iron would probably be better, but I don't plan to have the free hand for the shield there. Hopefully, I can use the Lure to regularly create combat advanatages to our rogue.

For the other powers, I go for those that allow mer to attack as many enemies as possible (Passing Attack, Sweeping Blow, Rain of Steel), because the more people I hit, the more I mark, the more I mark, the fewer attack other teammates and give them the space to breath to use their abilities. As a secondary prriority, I take powers that increase my overall durability (Combat Strike) to make sure that I can take the beating I will hopefully provoke. As a third priority, I try to be mobile, because I won't be much of a defense when I am not between the enemy and my friends; besides, it can help to establish as many combat advantages for the rogue as possible, which seems to be a good idea as well (Pass Forward seems to be a good idea for this).

For feats, I think that Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blades), Weapon Prfoficiency (Fullblade), Action Surge and Improved Initiative are a good choice, with human preservance and toughness (is it me, or is it really odd that toughness, of all feats is suddenly something like a good choice?) as further options; I'd like to take a multiclass feat, and I vary between Student of Battle, and Berserker's Fury. The latter one has the more intesting skill choices, the warlord option offers the more useful power, and I like the Combat Veteran path.

As trained skills, I probably take Athletics, Endurance, Heal and Intimidate; Streetwise is better left for the rogue. If I multiclass with Barbarian, either Nature or Perception are solid choices, as a warlord wannabe, diplomacy or history comes to mind - I'll ask the the warlord player what skills she uses, and will probably take the leftovers, to cover a broader area of competences.

Are there any dire misconceptions, really stupid choices or showings of logical lapses in this concept?

The basic character concept is, that the character was a knight from an old knighthood order, and was trapped in a fearie realm for quite a long time (or at least quite a long time in the outside world; due to different speeds of time, he has only spent a year or so with the fey, while in the "real world" over thirty years came and went by). Now his order is outlawed, pretty much everybody he ever knew believes he is dead, his own children are older know than he is himself, and he was just freed by the other two characters from the Eladrin prince that kept him prisoner.
The main focus on the campaign is, that the not very peaceful or nice, mostly low magic subcontinent of Pendor is invaded from the feywild; a portal has opened and a slow trickle of fey powers are trickling into 'our' world, forests are growing quickly and expanding everywhere, monsters appear in these forests, and the human kingdom that once spun over Pendor has collapsed and made place for squabbling successor kingdoms.

The PC's task is pretty much to a) unite the human kingdoms to defend their world against those pesky elves and their creatures, and b) kill some elves and burn down forrests. I am not quite sure if we stand on the right side in this conflict, but whatever. It is pretty much an Anti-Avatar campaign.
I also think we get some additional features and bonuses instead of magical items, (from one of the DMG's?), so that the lack of equipment won't hurt so bad. I also will probably get at least one magical item (that's a conclusion from the fact that the other two also have their one magical item as well - a witchcraft Pact dagger for the Roguelock, and a mithral chain shirt for the warlord), probably said ancestral full blade sword.

Draz74
2010-01-10, 01:24 PM
For feats, I think that Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blades), Weapon Prfoficiency (Fullblade), Action Surge and Improved Initiative are a good choice, with human preservance and toughness (is it me, or is it really odd that toughness, of all feats is suddenly something like a good choice?) as further options; I'd like to take a multiclass feat, and I vary between Student of Battle, and Berserker's Fury. The latter one has the more intesting skill choices, the warlord option offers the more useful power, and I like the Combat Veteran path.

As trained skills, I probably take Athletics, Endurance, Heal and Intimidate; Streetwise is better left for the rogue. If I multiclass with Barbarian, either Nature or Perception are solid choices, as a warlord wannabe, diplomacy or history comes to mind - I'll ask the the warlord player what skills she uses, and will probably take the leftovers, to cover a broader area of competences.

Improved Initiative isn't really considered the powerhouse it once was, probably due to the way everybody gets +1/2-level to Initiative checks now. I'd say Human Perseverance is a stronger feat.

Toughness is good (:smallconfused:) for the first few levels of each tier of play, but "meh" at the end of each tier. I've heard of people starting with it, then retraining it out, in, out, in, out during their careers. At level 5, I wouldn't especially prioritize it.

I would prioritize one of those multiclass feats, though.

tcrudisi
2010-01-10, 03:20 PM
I take the Fighter Weapon Talent for two-handed weapons. I might not have any weapon at the moment, but I am confident that I will eventually get the ancestral full blade of my clan hinted in the background story I am currently developing.

Just a friendly warning: Using a 2-handed weapoon will result in much weaker defenses (10% lower in AC, Reflex, and possibly Fortitude). You will, however, do really good damage. It's a trade-off.


As at will powers, I take Cleave, Reaping Strike and Footwork Lure. Hopefully, I can use the Lure to regularly create combat advanatages to our rogue.

As I said in my above post, if your Rogue is an Artful Dodger, he'll create his own combat advantage while giving you a free attack. I actually think you'll use it differently, since you have no squishies: I'm betting you will use it to put the enemy into flanking for you and the Warlord, then the Warlord will attack, shift out of the way, then free up the slot for the Rogue.

May I suggest different at-wills, though? Brash Strike is completely and totally awesome. Footwork Lure is always a solid choice. The third at-will is a surprise: Knockdown Assault. Basically, I look at the 3rd at-will as being the "highly situational" at-will where you want a power that won't be used often, but when it is, the DM cries. That's what this power is. When someone dazes a monster, you knock it prone. Everyone moves away from it. It can do one action: stand up. Brash Strike and Footwork Lure are wonderful at-wills to cover all the other situations.


... because the more people I hit, the more I mark, the more I mark, the fewer attack other teammates and give them the space to breath to use their abilities. ... (Pass Forward seems to be a good idea for this).

First, Pass Forward is an amazingly good power. Take it and never look back.

Second, it depends on how the DM runs the monsters. Just because you have marked an enemy does not mean that they will attack you. Yes, they feel a compulsion to do so, but it is not mandatory. They can break that compulsion to go after your healer or striker. Yes, you'll get to punish them and they'll be at a -2 to hit... but so what? If your AC is over 9,000 and you hit like pre-steroid Barry Bonds, the monster will likely ignore you to go after the Rogue that is floating like a butterfly and stinging like a bee.


... and Improved Initiative are a good choice, with human preservance and toughness (is it me, or is it really odd that toughness, of all feats is suddenly something like a good choice?)

Toughness is a great choice, especially since you'll be taking a lot of hits. Improved Initiative? Well, not so much, as Draz74 said. Brutal Tactics would be a great choice, as would be Weapon Focus and Fighter Weapon Specialization. If you aren't able to hurt the bad guys, they won't care if you threaten to hit them when they move to attack your allies. Also, the biggest weakness to having 3 martial classes is the lack of skill synergy. I strongly advise against taking the Warlord multiclass for the heal. You have the Wisdom; take Initiate of the Faith instead. It'll give you a daily heal plus training in Religion. Yeah, you won't be especially good at Religion, but it's better than everybody being terrible at it (unless your Warlord is Tactical, then he should be decent). But anyway: diversify your groups skills or you will find that you cannot successfully do many skill challenges.


...I'll ask the the warlord player what skills she uses, and will probably take the leftovers, to cover a broader area of competences. Are there any dire misconceptions, really stupid choices or showings of logical lapses in this concept?

See? This is what happens when I reply before reading the whole thing. I give advise that wasn't needed. And, no, not really. Nature is fantastic if no one else has it. If no one else has Perception? Well, heh, I can't type how screwed you guys would be unless your DM is just a really, really nice DM.

Satyr
2010-01-10, 04:42 PM
Improved Initiative isn't really considered the powerhouse it once was, probably due to the way everybody gets +1/2-level to Initiative checks now. I'd say Human Perseverance is a stronger feat.

Yes, I have just seen that we will get an initiative bonjus anyway due to the warlord no matter what we do. That should be sufficient, I think, which opens the slot for the fitting multiclass feat, and taking Human Preserverance on the next level.


As I said in my above post, if your Rogue is an Artful Dodger, he'll create his own combat advantage while giving you a free attack.

Which would be fine anyway, because I'll probably deal some damage myself. So, it's still a valid combo, right?


Brash Strike is completely and totally awesome.
Why? Do I oversee something? I'll probably won't have one of the preffered weapons, and so it is pretty much like sure strike, with the side efect of lowering my defenses further. Yes, that will provoke them to attack me, but should I really make it so easy for them?


Knockdown Assault, Brutal Tactics, Fighter Weapon Specialization
Where are those from? I can't find them in any of the books, and we have no DDI access in this group.


See? This is what happens when I reply before reading the whole thing. I give advise that wasn't needed. And, no, not really. Nature is fantastic if no one else has it. If no one else has Perception? Well, heh, I can't type how screwed you guys would be unless your DM is just a really, really nice DM.

I am pretty sure that the rogue has both the sense stuff skills. It's just my experience that it is never bad to have more than one guy who could spot a trap or an ambush.

tcrudisi
2010-01-10, 06:35 PM
Which would be fine anyway, because I'll probably deal some damage myself. So, it's still a valid combo, right?

Why? Do I oversee something? I'll probably won't have one of the preffered weapons, and so it is pretty much like sure strike, with the side efect of lowering my defenses further. Yes, that will provoke them to attack me, but should I really make it so easy for them?

Where are those from? I can't find them in any of the books, and we have no DDI access in this group.

I am pretty sure that the rogue has both the sense stuff skills. It's just my experience that it is never bad to have more than one guy who could spot a trap or an ambush.

In order:

1) It's very much a valid combo IF your Rogue is an artful dodger. The DM might get tired of getting whacked every time the Rogue incurs an OA, misses with his attack, and gets hit by you... but then the Rogue is still getting free combat advantage. It's win/win. If your Rogue is a Ruthless Ruffian? Weep at his ineffectiveness. If he is a Brutal Scoundrel? Well, they do more damage at the expense of giving up that wonderful mobility outlined above. You'll have to work with him some more, in that case, to ensure that he gets combat advantage.

2) Even if you are not using one of the favored weapons, it is still a great power. Sure Strike: +2 to hit, Weapon damage. Brash Strike: +2 to hit, Weapon + Str damage, grant CA to the enemy you attack. How often will you be granting CA anyway? Quite a bit. When you are already giving them CA, why not go ahead and take a free +2 to hit on that foe? It's considerably more damage than Sure Strike and incredibly accurate. Sometimes you will not want to give the enemy CA, so don't. Instead, use Footwork Lure to attack them. You do not have to do the shift thing when you use Footwork Lure.

Reaping Strike is, in my eyes, mediocre at best. It does Str damage when you miss. But why miss? If getting damage on the foe is that important, Brash Strike is still a lot better with the +2 to hit.

3) Knockdown Assault -- PH Heroes: Series 1
Brutal Tactics -- Dragon Magazine 379
Fighter Weapon Specialization -- Dragon Magazine 379

Quick sales pitch: It's completely worth having everyone chip in $2.50 for a one-month subscription that up to 5 people can use (I'm assuming 4 of you). You would get all the Fighter powers and feats (plus all the other classes) that have been released up to last month. It's a deal that can't be beat.

4) I agree, within reason. If I'm running in a 5-person group, I want two people trained in Perception, definitely. However, in a 3-person group? I think it would be best to diversify everyones skills as much as possible until everything is covered before doubling up on the really important skills. Others may disagree with this.

Draz74
2010-01-10, 08:54 PM
Regarding overlapping skills ... is anyone in the party going to invest in Jack of All Trades?

DragonBaneDM
2010-01-11, 02:36 AM
Regarding overlapping skills ... is anyone in the party going to invest in Jack of All Trades?

Why would they? It's one of those "I ran outta stuff to take Paragon Tier" feats.

EDIT: Whoah. Didn't see you were a pirate too. I apologize, me harty!

tcrudisi
2010-01-11, 03:29 AM
Why would they? It's one of those "I ran outta stuff to take Paragon Tier" feats.

EDIT: Whoah. Didn't see you were a pirate too. I apologize, me harty!

Normally, Jack of All Trades would be as you described. But for a 3 person party where all 3 are martial characters? It could be very big for ensuring that the group can overcome skill challenges or just have the necessary skills to advance. I didn't consider it before, but it's certainly not a bad feat to take (unlike normal).

Kurald Galain
2010-01-11, 07:08 AM
I agree with Mando Knight. +1 to damage is not nearly as good as +1 to one of your defenses.

+1 to hit, however, is much better than +1 to one of your defenses.

I find that focusing on your primary attribute while mostly ignoring the others works very well in 4E.