abusing basic spells

[Soranar]

ever found a creative way to use very basic spells?

My favorite was Create Water (was a better trick in 2nd edition as you created a lot more water then)

basic level 0 spell , available to a lot of classes (my favored soul was fond of it), you get 2 gallons per level, no cap (3 if empowered)

basically you trap something that needs air to live (too bad dragons can breathe underwater now, my DM had a fit with that one) and drown it by creating a flood out of nowhere

(can take several rounds/days to accomplish but it is really effective)

you can also hold it in with a magic wall (say at the top of a mountain) and let the resulting wave crush the bandit camp/city that was bugging you

[LibraryOgre]

If you have to spend days/weeks doing something with cantrips, I don't think it's terribly abusive.

[Soranar]

like I said it was simpler in 2nd edition (took 3 rounds to flood a small city, killed a dragon by myself with it ) but it's still fun from the look of creating a lot of destruction with a low level spell

[Dr_S]

conjure water inside a sealed container... Second time I played... we actually designed a weapon around that premise. Yay for pressurized systems!

[ocdscale]

Don't you need LoS for Conjure Water?

[Slayn82]

There was the Shrink item Combos, like reducing a heavy anvil and then using Juggle to put it exactly atop of someone, and then returning it to its original mass, 4000x greater. Talk about a headache. Or using it with Craft arrow to turn an entire tree into an arrow, and then shooting it at someone. Arrow enters, heavy impact makes it return to its original size (or you simply use the comand word) - Fatality.

And that was in 2nd edition too.

Since we are talking about Shrink item, can someone clarify something to me about the right translation of its Area of Efect? The 2cu ft./ level is confuse in Portuguese, and can end up being translated as, for a level 5 caster, 10 cu ft or one cube of 10 ft on each edge. Im almost sure the first is the right one, but could someone please clarify for me? ( i have seen both translations around).

[Eloel]

Since we are talking about Shrink item, can someone clarify something to me about the right translation of its Area of Efect? The 2cu ft./ level is confuse in Portuguese, and can end up being translated as, for a level 5 caster, 10 cu ft or one cube of 10 ft on each edge. Im almost sure the first is the right one, but could someone please clarify for me? ( i have seen both translations around).

It IS the first one.

[Glimbur]

Helping Hand is a very silly spell. It's a 3rd level cleric spell in core. It sends a ghostly yet visible hand to beckon a person to come towards you. There are no provisions on how you can hide from the hand, or elude the hand, or etc. So, if someone is hiding really well, you just cast Helping Hand and now you see where to drop your AoE's. Pretty silly.

[The Blackbird]

...http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6293/presitidigitation.png

Image by SandyCeasar.

[Moriato]

basic level 0 spell , available to a lot of classes (my favored soul was fond of it), you get 2 gallons per level, no cap (3 if empowered)


You can't actually empower create water. Well, you can, but it doesn't do anything because empower only affects random variables. If create water summoned, lets say... 1d2 gallons of water per level, then it would have an effect.

The trick still works, of course, just not empower.

[Soranar]

You can't actually empower create water. Well, you can, but it doesn't do anything because empower only affects random variables. If create water summoned, lets say... 1d2 gallons of water per level, then it would have an effect.

The trick still works, of course, just not empower.

All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.

as stated in the SRD, 2 gallons is a numeric effect

problem is the second sentence which I completely ignored...

[Soranar]

as for the nuclear weapon minor trick...

hands: apply directly to forehead

[Moriato]

All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.

as stated in the SRD, 2 gallons is a numeric effect

problem is the second sentence which I completely ignored...

You missed the next line.


Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.

2 gallons per level is a numeric effect, but it's not random, or variable.

Same reason empower doesn't work on spells like heal. If there are no dice involved, empower doesn't work.

[Dr_S]

Don't you need LoS for Conjure Water?

Proof that I'm still a newb >.<
To be fair my friend boasted playing for 16 years and he's the one who suggested that as a way to solve our problem...

I was using thermodynamics to convince him we should find magics to super cool the contents then cork it and let it return to room temperature

[KillianHawkeye]

All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.

as stated in the SRD, 2 gallons is a numeric effect

Yeah, but it's not variable. It will always be twice your caster level.

[Bayar]

...http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6293/presitidigitation.png

Image by SandyCeasar.

That joke is so old, and yet so funny...

[Da Pwnzlord]

Don't you need LoS for Conjure Water?

Well, if it's a clear bottle made of glass....

[Roupe]

First image to mind, is a old fantasy AD&D illustration of the use of untie can-trip against a female waiter clothing knots.

soften stone and clay (lvl 2)against the terrain of a battlefield...

edit: large army battlefield is even more fun

[graeylin]

before it was ruled as abuse, we would summon monsters just to see who they attacked... it was a great way to sort out who was your friend, and who really wanted you dead, but was bluffing.

summoned monsters attacked your enemies on the next turn...

and in the old days, OMG, what you could do with Prestidigitation...

[nyjastul69]

Well, if it's a clear bottle made of glass....

Line of effect is also necessary.

[Slayn82]

Not in the good, old 2nd Edition, where that trick originated.

Also, ozgun92, thank you for the clarification. Its much apreciated, as a second opinion. Oh, Devir...:smallsigh:

[aboyd]

I constantly used Stone Shape as an attack. Very simple shape -- put your hand on a wall and have a line of stone moving up the wall and across the ceiling, ending in a big ol' square. Square separates from the ceiling and squishes anything underneath. My DM ruled that critters got a Reflex save, but it still was far more useful in far more encounters than anyone anticipated.

I never regretted it or apologized. The only reason I ever tried it was because he'd pushed us through something like 8 combats in the span of 2 hours, game time, and we simply had nothing left, not even scrolls, that we could use offensively. I was desperate. It worked.

[2xMachina]

You missed the next line.



2 gallons per level is a numeric effect, but it's not random, or variable.

Same reason empower doesn't work on spells like heal. If there are no dice involved, empower doesn't work.

Meh, I never liked the static nature of D&D spells. A good wizard should be able to change spells the way mechanic can change how a machine works. (Or programmer with programs?)

You'd think the wizards never experimented with spells to see how they actually worked (like a scientist), and change certain things to see how it'd affect the spell.

[Gamerlord]

Meh, I never liked the static nature of D&D spells-

METAMAGIC! :smalltongue:

[Dhavaer]

Meh, I never liked the static nature of D&D spells. A good wizard should be able to change spells the way mechanic can change how a machine works. (Or programmer with programs?)

You'd think the wizards never experimented with spells to see how they actually worked (like a scientist), and change certain things to see how it'd affect the spell.

That's exactly what metamagic is.

[Vaynor]

Even at level 20, 40 gallons of water is a lot less than you're making it out to be. Maybe you could drown a gnome.

[Eloel]

Yeah, but it's not variable. It will always be twice your caster level.

Can a Wild Mage empower that spell? His caster level changes, which means any spell has a 'variable' effect. Go-go empowered Nightshield?

[Rainbownaga]

Even if it was d2 +2 per level, empowering would only add an extra 0-1 gallons in total, right?

[Dhavaer]

Can a Wild Mage empower that spell? His caster level changes, which means any spell has a 'variable' effect. Go-go empowered Nightshield?

That's not an effect of the spell, though, it's an effect of the Wild Mage's class ability.

[Eloel]

Even if it was d2 +2 per level, empowering would only add an extra 0-1 gallons in total, right?

I'm pretty sure Empowered Magic missile is 1d4+1 * 1.5, not 1d4 * 1.5 + 1. So, 1d2+2 empowered would be 4 or 6

[2xMachina]

METAMAGIC! :smalltongue:


That's exactly what metamagic is.

A little limited for what I mean. We can't change create water to 1d2 gallon for example.

[IonDragon]

Even at level 20, 40 gallons of water is a lot less than you're making it out to be. Maybe you could drown a gnome.

But you get something like 10-12 0th level spells/day at level 20 too, so it's 400 gallons of water. Also, 1 gallon is enough for a human to drown in if they can't get out.

[AslanCross]

Meh, I never liked the static nature of D&D spells. A good wizard should be able to change spells the way mechanic can change how a machine works. (Or programmer with programs?)

You'd think the wizards never experimented with spells to see how they actually worked (like a scientist), and change certain things to see how it'd affect the spell.

See: Metamagic, Incantatrix, Arcane Thesis

[GoC]

2 gallons per level is a numeric effect, but it's not random, or variable.

Actually it is variable (2 gallons per level), just not random.

[Eldariel]

See: Metamagic, Incantatrix, Arcane Thesis

Also, spell research. But this all comes right back to the Vancian roots of D&D casting where the whole point is that Wizards DON'T understand what they're doing and only through years of accurate repetition and memorizing manage to replicate the exact maneuvers and words and materials that generates the spell effect it's written out for.

And once in a century, an adventurous mage successfully uncovers a new combination that works. That's why spells are memorized as they are and used as spell slots and in a pretty static way; the mages don't really know what they're doing (and how they're memorized and how they disappear from the mind is a part of the same explanation; a memorized spell is effectively "pre-cast" to the point where only one maneuver actually resolves the spells - the casting process itself takes for-fcking-ever hence why mages do most of it in the morning). Though why the same applies to non-Wizards is anyone's guess. Really, 3.5 partially threw that out of the window with Sorcerer (who needs to be intuitively familiar with magic to...well, do anything), full-casting Cleric/Druid and such. But the limitation still remains, making for some odd crap.

[Zen Master]

like I said it was simpler in 2nd edition (took 3 rounds to flood a small city, killed a dragon by myself with it ) but it's still fun from the look of creating a lot of destruction with a low level spell

You ... small city?

At 20th level, you'd get all of 60 gallons pr. cast? Suppose you cast two each round, in 3 rounds you'd have 360 gallons of water.

You invaded Lilliputania, and crushed it under your own personal deluge. I say how that's fun in all sorts of ways, but personally I'd say it could have been done with a single fireball too =D

[lesser_minion]

My understanding is that Create Water doesn't need line of effect or line of sight (so you can use it to fill bottles, and so on). You just cannot use it to create things inside a creature, which is a general limitation of conjuration spells, specifically added because of how broken Create Water was three editions ago.

The nastiest trick with Create Water is the first edition one - no-save-just-die from having vast quantities of water created within your body, causing ruptured and crushed organs, drowning, and other horrible effects.


These days, Shrink Item is used as a very cheesy defence against antimagic fields, based on the argument that the item 'pops' into its new size when the effect is suppressed. Or at least, until the DM says 'noooo'.

[Soranar]

in second edition create water didn't make mere gallons of water but several cubic meters by caster level, I'd quote it but can't find it anywhere

wow I feel old, stuff from my youth isn't online anymore

[Mongoose87]

If you can't empower it, why don't you just heighten it?

[Soranar]

well you can still quicken, still or silent

thats a lot of water

[PhoenixRivers]

I'm pretty sure Empowered Magic missile is 1d4+1 * 1.5, not 1d4 * 1.5 + 1. So, 1d2+2 empowered would be 4 or 6

Incorrect. Only variable results are increased.

(1d4) - Variable
+1 - Not Variable

(1d4 * 1.5) +1 - per missile. This yields a result of 2-7 (2, 4, 5, or 7) damage. As this is a base level 3 spell, without some metamagic shenanigans, you'd have 3 missiles when you could first do this, yielding (1d4 * 1.5) + 1 (3 times).
Total damage between 6 and 21 (6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21 being all possible results-some more likely than others)

Note: Only VARIABLE numeric results are increased. If a number is known before it's needed, it's not variable.


If you can't empower it, why don't you just heighten it?
Because there's no saving throw involved, and no effect based on spell level. Thus, only useful if you wanted to guarantee a minimum caster level for a wand or scroll.

[Sharkman1231]

...http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6293/presitidigitation.png

Image by SandyCeasar.

Okay, to create a large explosion by way of nuclear fission, you would need to first gather a large amount of fissile material (e.g. uranium, plutonium, etc.) and that would have have reached supercritical mass. Then using prestidigitaion would have worked.

So, first use locate object or a rod of mineral detection to get the ore, then use fabricate to create a mass of U-235 (you also have to seperate the U-235 from the U-238) then compress the mass using shrink item shennanigans & dropping it on the mass of uranium to compress it. THEN you can use prestidigitaion to start the chain reaction.

I think the woukd also require
Knowledge(relativity)
Knowledge(chemistry)
Knowledge(other stuff that relates to nuclear physics)

I haven't learned enough about fusionto give a explanation on that subject.:smallbiggrin:

[Pharaoh's Fist]

You don't need to know about relativity.

[lsfreak]

Incorrect. Only variable results are increased.

In the PHB, it specifically uses Magic Missile as an example of empower: you take the 1d4+1, and increase it by 50%.

The SRD doesn't include this, but it also doesn't include ANY of the further elaboration that the PHB does.


Empower Spell
All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.

Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.


Empower Spell
All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, and so forth, as appropriate. For example, an empowered magic missile deals 1-1/2 times its normal damage (roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1-1/2 for each missile). Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you cast dispel magic) are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

[PhoenixRivers]

In the PHB, it specifically uses Magic Missile as an example of empower: you take the 1d4+1, and increase it by 50%.

The SRD doesn't include this, but it also doesn't include ANY of the further elaboration that the PHB does.

Primary source. The written rule trumps example. There are many, many cases where "examples" violate rules. In these cases, the rules hold precedence, regardless of the example.

[Sharkman1231]

You don't need to know about relativity.


Yes you do, the equtation E=mc^2 enabled the Manhattan Project.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

That's not necessarily true; the ability to create sustained fission was theorized before Einstein iirc.

[2xMachina]

You don't need to know how big the "boom" would be. Just that it would.

[Dr_S]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createwater.htm

I had to check...
It specifically mentions that you can't create it inside a creature... this to me seems like something they wouldn't mention if you needed LoE (because that would cover creating it inside of creatures)

Second, Variable is a bit of a loaded word. Depending on what you're using a variable for it can mean a lot of things.

There are 2 reasons I could see the argument for variable (though I suppose unless WOTC specifies which they count I guess comes down to house rules)

The value can be expressed as an equation W<=2L Thus the value is non-constant because level determines the amount.

The second being that it's up to the caster how much because it says "up to 2 gallons per level" again meaning the value changes.

Variable doesn't mean random, it means that it is a value that can or does vary from time to time, and since it's non-constant I suppose I could see the argument for it. Unlike say duration or range which are set constants.

[PhoenixRivers]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createwater.htm

I had to check...
It specifically mentions that you can't create it inside a creature... this to me seems like something they wouldn't mention if you needed LoE (because that would cover creating it inside of creatures)
SRD, Conjuration overview (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration)

"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."


The value can be expressed as an equation W<=2L Thus the value is non-constant because level determines the amount.However, you know when you start casting, what that maximum amount is. It's known prior to the spell resolving.


The second being that it's up to the caster how much because it says "up to 2 gallons per level" again meaning the value changes."You choose" isn't variable, by D&D Parlance


Variable doesn't mean random, it means that it is a value that can or does vary from time to time, and since it's non-constant I suppose I could see the argument for it. Unlike say duration or range which are set constants.

In the SRD? It pretty much does.

Your AC can change based on the armor you wear, the spells on you, and more. By the definition of variable you use? It's a variable.

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/variableModifiers.htm) refers to that as static, and variable is replacing it with a roll. (Source: SRD, Variable Modifiers system)

The Variable Result Alternative Failure Results Method (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/massaveDamageThresholdsAndResults.htm) adds a die roll.

The Empower Spell Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#empowerSpell) explicitly states that spells without random variables are not affected.

I can go on. There's a lot of examples, and none support your view.

[Callista]

Yes you do, the equtation E=mc^2 enabled the Manhattan Project.Once again, not really. What you really have to know is quantum physics.

But really, Knowledge (Physics) would cover both.

This is only without a DM who has not ruled that his world has different laws of nature. In a world where magic is possible, that is quite probably the case.

Also: Abusing basic spells? Mage Hand. Seriously. For a stealth-oriented character, it does some amazing things. Mage Hand lets you poison the ogres' food, steal the keys to your cell, remotely detonate traps, scare unwitting villagers, lure away guards, drop five pounds of acid on somebody or five pounds of oil for a Grease-like effect...

If your DM rules that you are allowed to manipulate things instead of just lifting them, then the spell is utterly broken. You can now pick locks at a distance, magically poke out your opponents' eyes, steal the enemy wizard's spell components, change the paths of arrows in flight and deflect the impact of the lighter hand weapons, pick pockets...

[Sharkman1231]

You don't need to know how big the "boom" would be. Just that it would.

Knowing how large an explosion would be is extremly important, especially if you're dealing with radioactive materials.

Edit: I give up, I'm not going to post anymore on this subject. I'm done.:smallsigh:

[PhoenixRivers]

Once again, not really. What you really have to know is quantum physics.

But really, Knowledge (Physics) would cover both.

This is only without a DM who has not ruled that his world has different laws of nature. In a world where magic is possible, that is quite probably the case.

Also: Abusing basic spells? Mage Hand. Seriously. For a stealth-oriented character, it does some amazing things. Mage Hand lets you poison the ogres' food, steal the keys to your cell, remotely detonate traps, scare unwitting villagers, lure away guards, drop five pounds of acid on somebody or five pounds of oil for a Grease-like effect...

If your DM rules that you are allowed to manipulate things instead of just lifting them, then the spell is utterly broken. You can now pick locks at a distance, magically poke out your opponents' eyes, steal the enemy wizard's spell components, change the paths of arrows in flight and deflect the impact of the lighter hand weapons, pick pockets...

As Arcane Trickster is a PrC that grants the manipulation ability to Mage Hand, I'm guessing that before, the answer's "no".

[Dr_S]

Fair enough,

Everyone was so caught up in the word variable I didn't read the second line.

Why the heck didn't they just say "increase the amount of any random numerical value" though? I feel like using variable was ASKING for confusion...

Or perhaps they meant that Total damage done counts as variable (because that value changes) which is why they had to specify that a RANDOM variable had to be included in the spell for it to work?

such as
3d6 - Random value
3d6+18bajillion - variable that includes a random value?

I don't think it's so clear. They should have more standardized definitions in many cases... (in many cases they do a good job)

Honestly I don't know I've already admitted to being a newb... at this point in time I don't think it matters though (because seriously we're arguing over 1 gallon of water per level/per 0 level spell)

[Flickerdart]

Knowing how large an explosion would be is extremly important, especially if you're dealing with radioactive materials.

Edit: I give up, I'm not going to post anymore on this subject. I'm done.:smallsigh:
Forcecage yourself, and no, it doesn't matter.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Knowing how large an explosion would be is extremly important, especially if you're dealing with radioactive materials.

That's why you have grad students do the dangerous work.

[Shardan]

as an athasian fire cleric, fire trap was a way to mass produce napalm grenades. trap glass bottles of lamp oil. chuck them at enemy. Boom, fire and oil. Fire trap is permanent until used. I trapped special made arrows for the archer in the party too.

of course using grease on the floor right before a trap the thief discovered to lure opponents towards us, slip on the grease and slide right into the trap. Alternatively grease an incline, stand at the top and range the enemy to death. Grease an incline and web the bottom, grease an incline leading to a cliff...
Then lob firetraps at the enemy

[Deathslayer7]

not so simple yet so nice. Create water by a Druid onto a large broad area of attacking people on a plain or something. Cast turn mud to rock. :smallbiggrin: Most people will at least be ankle deep in mud if not more.