Can't Spot This (possible?)

[Frog Dragon]

I've been thinking for a build that just CAN'T be spotted. I can get perma invis (Pixie) and simply insane mundane Sneaking (Again, Pixie and Dark Template+Items) and be immune to most methods of spotting me by Darkstalker, but there's still a problem. That goddangit Mindsight. I need to be able to avoid that. LA up to 5 is perfectly acceptable here (for a total of 10 on top of Dark Pixie).

[Zaq]

I'm pretty sure that Mind Blank should stop that, but that's probably a little higher level than you want it to be. Other than that I don't know. That's kind of what makes Mindsight so damn powerful.

[FishAreWet]

Mind Blank or Telekentic Static (FCII) stop Mindsight.

How are you stopping Touchsight? Or the dreaded Transdimensional Touchsight?

Or Divine Fire Mastery?

[Jack_Simth]

I've been thinking for a build that just CAN'T be spotted. I can get perma invis (Pixie) and simply insane mundane Sneaking (Again, Pixie and Dark Template+Items) and be immune to most methods of spotting me by Darkstalker, but there's still a problem. That goddangit Mindsight. I need to be able to avoid that. LA up to 5 is perfectly acceptable here (for a total of 10 on top of Dark Pixie).

Get a Ghost with a Ring of X-Ray vision. Step under ground.

They do not have line-of-effect or line-of-sight to you.

[The Glyphstone]

Or Divine Fire Mastery?

By not cheesing off gods of fire would be my preference.


How are you stopping Touchsight? Or the dreaded Transdimensional Touchsight?

If he can become Incorporeal, it'll block normal Touchsight. TD Touchsight is muuuuch harder though.



Mind Blank or Telekentic Static (FCII) stop Mindsight.
This is a houserule I've seen a lot, and actually implement in my games as well, but is it actually outright stated anywhere? Mind Blank seems to imply that it would block it, but the actual text of the spell only stops attempts to detect 'emotions or thoughts', while Mindsight only requires that the person not be mindless. Can't speak about the Telekinetic Static spell though.

[Frog Dragon]

I should've stated this before, but this is no psionics. I'll look into the Telekinetic Stance though.
Where exactly is it? I checked through the spells section of Fiendish Codex II, didn't find it.

[Jack_Simth]

By not cheesing off gods of fire would be my preference.

If he can become Incorporeal, it'll block normal Touchsight. TD Touchsight is muuuuch harder though.


This is a houserule I've seen a lot, and actually implement in my games as well, but is it actually outright stated anywhere? Mind Blank seems to imply that it would block it, but the actual text of the spell only stops attempts to detect 'emotions or thoughts', while Mindsight only requires that the person not be mindless. Can't speak about the Telekinetic Static spell though.

Telepathic static. It doesn't so much block the Mindsight as it blocks the Telepathy that Mindsight requires.

[Frog Dragon]

still not there. Infact I can't find a single spell starting with a T. Can I have the page?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Make the build a Ghost. Template, so it retains the current tricks, but also gets you immunity to Touch and Life-sight, and possibly Mindsight.

[JaronK]

I've been thinking for a build that just CAN'T be spotted. I can get perma invis (Pixie) and simply insane mundane Sneaking (Again, Pixie and Dark Template+Items) and be immune to most methods of spotting me by Darkstalker, but there's still a problem. That goddangit Mindsight. I need to be able to avoid that. LA up to 5 is perfectly acceptable here (for a total of 10 on top of Dark Pixie).

Undead negates mindsight. Honestly, I'd drop pixie (invisibility isn't something you can rely on) and instead go with a Shadow Whispergnome Factotum for insanely good hide checks. Then use Darkstalker so Blindsight won't do anything, and turn into a Necropolitan so you've gotten away from Mindsight. If you can get turned into a Necropolitan by a Dread Necromancer, so much the better (+4 dex!). Or you could just be a Bone Creature for +1LA.

Then get a Collar of Umbral Metamorphesis to get even higher hide checks, plus a few basic items (Muffling Shadowsilk Armor, Silent Shoes, etc). Touchsight could still spot you, but that's it, and you said there's no psionics. You're invisible to everything else.

JaronK

[Frog Dragon]

How does undead type negate Mindsight?
Oh immunity to mind affecting which telepathy is. Good one. thanks.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

How does undead type negate Mindsight?Immune to all mind-affecting effects. that's why i said it was iffy, but possible. It should, at least. Not sure if it's RAW(AFB right now:smallannoyed:).

[Optimystik]

Immune to all mind-affecting effects. that's why i said it was iffy, but possible. It should, at least. Not sure if it's RAW(AFB right now:smallannoyed:).

Mindsight is not mind-affecting. It can detect any creature with an Int score of 1+, regardless of type.

[Frog Dragon]

hmmm. I might just have to just suck up the hole in my defenses unless I can find the Telepathic Static spell somewhere. (honestly, where is it?)

[mostlyharmful]

Superiour Ivis, Mindblank, Non-detection, Ghostform and Shapechange (into anything with the Construct type) works pretty well.

[JaronK]

How does undead type negate Mindsight?
Oh immunity to mind affecting which telepathy is. Good one. thanks.

Also, in the same book Mindsight was published in they repeatedly mentioned that Mindflayers couldn't see undead because their mental sight was blocked.

JaronK

[Zaq]

Telepathic Static isn't a spell. It's a class feature. Specifically, it's a first-level class feature of the Hellbreaker PrC from FCII. I've always thought that the class looked interesting, but I'm not sure if it's actually worth taking more than a level or so. Still, the first-level features can improve your sneakitude quite nicely, so it's worth looking at.

[The Glyphstone]

Mind Flayers don't have Mindsight by default. This is the passage you're quoting:


Undead cannot
be psionically detected,
cannot be attacked with
mind-affecting powers,
and cannot be
slain by the removal
of the
brain—al l
characteristics

Mindsight/Telepathy isn't necessarily psionic in nature, as evidenced by the Mindbender PrC. As mentioned, it's not mind-affecting in any way any more than Telepathy is, so the Undead type is no protection, and even Mind Blank is iffy. That Telepathic Static spell ability would do it though.

[JaronK]

I was more thinking about how the Elder Brains can't detect them, but still.

JaronK

[The Glyphstone]

It's a possible interpretation, but I'm firmly of the opinion that Telepathy is not mind-affecting, backed by the existence of undead with Telepathy (two I can name immediately, the Brain in a Jar and the epic Atrophal). If Telepathy were mind-affecting, they would be unable to actually communicate with anyone. This could be argued against (a wizard under Mind Blank can still use Power Word spells, for example), but things like that aren't necessarily the communication link provided by Telepathy. A Brain in a Jar can Rebuke undead, for example, but if the Skeletons that it controls can't hear its telepathic orders, they're useless.

The Elder Brain's ability specifically mentions living creatures, so I'm not sure if it's conclusive or not - that might be a specific case for the Brain's ability to sense things, not a trait of telepathy in general.

[FishAreWet]

You're right, Telepathy isn't mind affect. Intelligent undead and constructs have it!

Telepathic Static seems to be the only way to block it then.

[ericgrau]

Shadow and silent moves armor max out at +15. Eyes of the eagle max out at +5 and I don't know any listen boosters. Add on an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location or better yet a mind blank and you're good to go. Oh, and mind blank works against effects that read thoughts, so telepathy is stopped whether it's mind affecting or not.

People usually won't cast see invisibility or true seeing unless they know you're there. In that case you may want a quick way to get out of range or dispel. Mundane hiding behind cover or concealment also helps. A dip into shadowdancer or such to get hide and plain sight adds a third method of concealment, as long as you are near a shadow.

[The Glyphstone]

Add on an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location or better yet a mind blank and you're good to go. Oh, and mind blank works against effects that read thoughts, so telepathy is stopped whether it's mind affecting or not.


These will stop telepathy, but the issue is the Mindsight ability. It doesn't detect, influence, or affect thoughts/emotions/minds in any listed way, it just senses if there is a mind there (defined as a non-mindless creature), independent of detecting that mind's contents. So far, Telepathic Static seems to be the only way to foil it, by removing the Telepathy and denying the feat's prerequisite.

[2xMachina]

Shadow Creature (+3LA)? Shadow Concealment (total concealment) provided not in full daylight. Kinda a boosted Dark template (don't even need to hide).

[Draz74]

Shadow and silent moves armor max out at +15. Eyes of the eagle max out at +5 and I don't know any listen boosters.

Even if we are having an SRD-only context discussion here, which seems like a poor assumption given the OP's mentioning of the Dark template, there is at least a +10 Spot booster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#aware) available.

[PhoenixRivers]

Shadow Creature has limitations of its own, IIRC.

Note: Mindsight is more like blindsense than blindsight. It only pinpoints, and does not allow targeting. If your Reflex save is high, you should be safe from pretty much everything but maw of chaos. Get the chaotic subtype, and you're good there.

In addition, standard ways to block LOE generally work vs detection methods. Total cover works wonders.

[dangerprawn]

Skulks from Races of Destiny are fun. Well...fun if you want your cultural relevancy to be the goal of murdering every creature in existence. Fun!

They get +8 Move Silently, +15 Hide, and can Hide at full speed (and run) with no penalty. They have an inherent nondetection thing but it won't help against Mindsight.

They have 2 RHD and +1 LA.

[PhoenixRivers]

Skulks from Races of Destiny are fun. Well...fun if you want your cultural relevancy to be the goal of murdering every creature in existence. Fun!

They get +8 Move Silently, +15 Hide, and can Hide at full speed (and run) with no penalty. They have an inherent nondetection thing but it won't help against Mindsight.

They have 2 RHD and +1 LA.

The RHD are the only real problem. The LA can be bought off soon after you start. Honestly, it's the RHD that makes Whisper Gnome a solid choice over them.

[2xMachina]

Shadow Creature has limitations of its own, IIRC.

Note: Mindsight is more like blindsense than blindsight. It only pinpoints, and does not allow targeting. If your Reflex save is high, you should be safe from pretty much everything but maw of chaos. Get the chaotic subtype, and you're good there.

In addition, standard ways to block LOE generally work vs detection methods. Total cover works wonders.

Shadow's limitation is the same with Dark. Not in full daylight.

[Orran]

One problem I see with builds like this is that the Sense of the Dragon spell from Races of the dragon allows automatic pinpointing within 30ft, how would that affect these things?

[Trouvere]

How do you stay hidden from someone employing permanent Arcane Sight, which will instantly pinpoint the location of magic auras? You can hide your magic items by removing their auras with Magic Aura (that was a repetitive sentence!), but any active spell effects on you will shine away, even while you're hiding 120 feet away behind an 11.9 inch thick stone wall. That Mindblank then becomes a bit counterproductive! Do you have to carry a tower shield with a thin sheet of lead on its front, or is there another way?

[Sinfire Titan]

still not there. Infact I can't find a single spell starting with a T. Can I have the page?

Telepathic Static isn't a spell, it's a class feature of the FC2's Spellthief PrC.

[PhoenixRivers]

How do you stay hidden from someone employing permanent Arcane Sight, which will instantly pinpoint the location of magic auras? You can hide your magic items by removing their auras with Magic Aura (that was a repetitive sentence!), but any active spell effects on you will shine away, even while you're hiding 120 feet away behind an 11.9 inch thick stone wall.


This spell makes your eyes glow blue and allows you to see magical auras within 120 feet of you. The effect is similar to that of a detect magic spell, but arcane sight does not require concentration and discerns aura location and power more quickly.

You know the location and power of all magical auras within your sight.
If someone is behind a wall, is he within your sight? No? Then total concealment or total cover is a protection from Arcane Sight.

As is being on another plane (ethereal, for instance), as divination effects do not cross planar barriers.

[Trouvere]

If someone is behind a wall, is he within your sight? No? Then total concealment or total cover is a protection from Arcane Sight.But Detect Magic and Arcane Sight and the like penetrate through barriers of varying thickness depending on their material. Your auras shine right through a wooden door or a two feet deep earth berm, or a six inch wall.

[Draz74]

But Detect Magic and Arcane Sight and the like penetrate through barriers of varying thickness depending on their material. Your auras shine right through a wooden door or a two feet deep earth berm, or a six inch wall.

Only spells that specifically say this, do it. Detect Magic does. Arcane Sight is poorly written, and references "Detect Magic" as a base spell but doesn't explain clearly whether the barrier-penetration thing carries over. I've definitely seen DMs rule that Arcane Sight therefore can't go beyond line of sight like Detect Magic does. And at least with Detect Magic, they'll need three rounds to pinpoint you ...

That's all assuming that the Hide skill doesn't involve hiding your Auras somehow just as effectively as you Hide yourself. I've gotten into huge debates before over this, where I was pretty much the only one defending the idea that Hiding could include being trained to cover your magic auras. I wrote up a long, fairly convincing essay about my position, but the Forum ate it and I gave up trying to re-write it. But the fact remains that the rules never really say which effect comes out on top between divinations and stealth skills (much like Tumble vs. Thicket of Blades). Many people just seem to assume that magic wins because, hey, it's magic. But I say -- magic doesn't need the help! And if I were a skilled stealth artist in a magic-filled fantasy world, I would certainly be interested in learning how to evade Detect Magic!

[PhoenixRivers]

But Detect Magic and Arcane Sight and the like penetrate through barriers of varying thickness depending on their material. Your auras shine right through a wooden door or a two feet deep earth berm, or a six inch wall.

Detect magic does, but Arcane Sight explicitly states that it works on only what you can see. Detect magic has no such restriction.

[Draz74]

{Scrubbed}

:smallmad::smallmad: OK, Phoenix, that's really really annoying. Please never do it again.

[PhoenixRivers]

Fair enough.

For those that have issues with the above, Alt + F4 closes most any application.

[Draz74]

Fair enough.

For those that have issues with the above, Alt + F4 closes most any application.

I had other tabs open that I didn't want to close, though.

[PhoenixRivers]

I had other tabs open that I didn't want to close, though.

Ah, well, then, there's anticipating the pattern and clicking quickly.

[2xMachina]

If that is what I think it is....

The problem isn't closing it. It's making sure nothing is lost. Plenty of people use tabs. Alt F4 kills the whole thing.

[Ernir]

Maximize the window to regain focus, try to close the tab, and hold down Enter for 3 seconds while it whittles through the "you've been Rickrolled!" messages. It then closes.

But damn, why? :smallsigh: