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*.*.*.*
2010-01-09, 03:59 PM
I'm playing in a campaign where I've grown tired of my current character and I'm nabbing a new character next session. I'm thinking about playing a monster PC since my DM is being a bro. He has this little houserule where you can play any playable monster, but ignore it's HD or LA(whichever is lower). I'm taking a healer cohort to offset basically no casting(I don't want a caster). What I first thought of playing was a lolth-touched(reflavored) half-dragon(black) War Troll. However, I took a look at the abyssal drake in the draconomicon and became quite interested in it. Any suggestions?


All books(3rd party,dragon, and even 3.0)
The party consists of a Mystic ranger/swifthunter, monk, daring outlaw, and a homebrewed racial progression Nymph(druid casting and not very balanced).
I'm looking for an extremely tough and kick ass monster combo(class suggestion greatly appreciated as well)

Dogmantra
2010-01-09, 04:29 PM
Play a Pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm) Rogue. Greater invisibility at will.

1 Racial HD, +4 LA (or +6, actually, might as well), so "Oh," you might be thinking, "that's going to be really underlevelled."

A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level.

So basically you can play a +6 LA character for a total ECL equal to Character Level. Perhaps not the best race possible, but pretty darn awesome anyway.

Temotei
2010-01-09, 04:38 PM
Play a Pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm) Rogue. Greater invisibility at will.

1 Racial HD, +4 LA (or +6, actually, might as well), so "Oh," you might be thinking, "that's going to be really underlevelled."


So basically you can play a +6 LA character for a total ECL equal to Character Level. Perhaps not the best race possible, but pretty darn awesome anyway.

Plus, you're really small, which gives you a nice bonus to hide.

mabriss lethe
2010-01-09, 05:07 PM
if you get to ignore either the LA or RD, perhaps the Ogre mage. keep your 5 racial HD. Giant HD aren't so bad, and you get benfits better than a lot of level 5 characters. nix the LA and maybe go ToB since your Giant HD would count towards your Initiator level.

EDIT: I just saw the "whichever is lower" clause. still a pretty nice build, but not quite as nice as before.

Moriato
2010-01-09, 05:14 PM
Rakshasa sorcerer.

Ordinary not worth playing because of the 7 hd and 7 LA, but those hit dice count as sorcerer levels.

So a Rakshasa 7 / sorc 1 is a level 8 sorc for all intents and purposes. Plus detect thoughts at will, change shape, DR 15/good AND piercing, and SR 27, and bonuses of +2 - +6 for every stat.

Good stuff.

Tanuki Tales
2010-01-09, 05:15 PM
Since the Pixie PC technically loses it's RHD the minute it takes a level, doesn't that mean if he played a PC one it'd lose the LA what with no RHD existing for it anymore?

awa
2010-01-09, 06:06 PM
wow are you playing in a really optimized party? Are other characters doing similar things if not playing some of these critters will seriously unbalance your party.

Take the rashka example its also got outsider hit dice so it has a good base attack bonus, all good saves, 8+ skill points a level (and almost certainly an int bonus) not to mention all the other abbilities that have already been mentioned
and put that into a party with a human sorcerer or god forbid a half orc monk and your looking at some serious imbalance

Temotei
2010-01-09, 06:19 PM
Outsiders make for good scouts because they don't need to eat or sleep.

Punctuation is nice. :smallamused:

*.*.*.*
2010-01-09, 06:28 PM
Since the Pixie PC technically loses it's RHD the minute it takes a level, doesn't that mean if he played a PC one it'd lose the LA what with no RHD existing for it anymore?

No, I would keep the LA. I drop whatever is the lowest.

EX.

Lolth-touched half-dragon war troll

HD-12
LA-6(war troll)+1(Lolth-touched)+3(half-dragon)=10

So I would drop the LA and play with the HD


wow are you playing in a really optimized party? Are other characters doing similar things if not playing some of these critters will seriously unbalance your party.
I NEED a strong critter or else death is very easy. My DM has a habit of throwing us in the middle of giant wars and makes us fight monsters who are our ECLx2. The swift hunter(lesser fey'ri) was completely built by me for my Girlfriend and I had a large part in the daring outlaw's build(whisper gnome). The monk is useless and has retrained himself three times now. The Nymph is overpowered as hell(Unearthly grace is insane when abused).

Dogmantra
2010-01-09, 06:42 PM
No, I would keep the LA. I drop whatever is the lowest.

Even if the RHD = 0?

*.*.*.*
2010-01-09, 06:44 PM
Even if the RHD = 0?

Especially if the RHD=0

drengnikrafe
2010-01-09, 06:54 PM
When you pick one, I would strongly suggest making sure that the LA is the lower of the two, thereby allowing you the bonuses that come with RHD, as opposed to just having those levels missing.

*.*.*.*
2010-01-09, 06:59 PM
When you pick one, I would strongly suggest making sure that the LA is the lower of the two, thereby allowing you the bonuses that come with RHD, as opposed to just having those levels missing.

It's what I had planned on and my example(and fall back) creature does this.

Draz74
2010-01-09, 07:07 PM
Couatl! You're stuck with 9 Racial Hit Dice, but ... they give you d8 HP, full BAB, 8 skill points/level, and 9th-level Sorcerer casting, so that's not exactly painful. You also pick up flight, alternate form (for disguises), a poison bite, great grappling abilities, and telepathy.

It's an extremely overpowered race if you find a way to drop the +7 LA.

*.*.*.*
2010-01-09, 07:17 PM
Couatl! You're stuck with 9 Racial Hit Dice, but ... they give you d8 HP, full BAB, 8 skill points/level, and 9th-level Sorcerer casting, so that's not exactly painful. You also pick up flight, alternate form (for disguises), a poison bite, great grappling abilities, and telepathy.

It's an extremely overpowered race if you find a way to drop the +7 LA.

I could also throw on Phrenic as well, thus making it 9 HD and 9 LA(the Dm said I get to choose which to drop if they are the same). Although I said I didn't want a caster, I'll ponder it and the Rakshasa(though the rakshasa's alignment is a problem)

Forevernade
2010-01-09, 07:50 PM
The Rakshasa would be fun to play IMO. And Lawful Evil doesnt mean 'hate everyone in the party'. You could be playing a bound Outsider, so that your deal with the party is to help them, for a bond in return. The bond could be 'their deepest secret', or their truename, both of which are useless to you personally, and only serve a higher being of evil. So you can turn all evil tendencies outward and away from the party, and still be a good player.

Kallisti
2010-01-09, 07:54 PM
If you're high enough level, Black Ethergaunt is just plain wicked.

*.*.*.*
2010-01-09, 07:57 PM
If you're high enough level, Black Ethergaunt is just plain wicked.

We're ECL 9 and my DM knows of Black Ethergaunts, he told me "HELL NO"

Kallisti
2010-01-09, 07:59 PM
We're ECL 9 and my DM knows of Black Ethergaunts, he told me "HELL NO"

OK. ECL 9 puts the kibosh on most of the worst shenanigans.

Rakshasa and Couatl are good ideas, though. Especially Rakshasa.

*.*.*.*
2010-01-09, 08:02 PM
OK. ECL 9 puts the kibosh on most of the worst shenanigans.

Rakshasa and Couatl are good ideas, though. Especially Rakshasa.

I'll consider them if I need spellcasting, but I'd like to explore melee possibilities as well(my DM is extremely cruel).

Copacetic
2010-01-09, 08:06 PM
The Rakshasa would be fun to play IMO. And Lawful Evil doesnt mean 'hate everyone in the party'. You could be playing a bound Outsider, so that your deal with the party is to help them, in for a bond in return. The bond could be 'their deepest secret', or their truename, both of which are useless to you personally, and only serve a higher being of evil. So you can turn all evil tendencies outward and away from the party, and still be a good player.

You are my new best friend. Thank you.

In other news, I second the Couatl.

awa
2010-01-09, 08:09 PM
my understanding an i might be wrong about it is that if you regenerate and are undead attacks that you would regenerate do nothing at all. I believe your half black dragon war troll is immune to all real damage so make him necropolitan hes immune to damage period.

Theirs feats and probably items to boots turn resistance. This charecter would be immune to damage so losing the con wont matter and being immune to damage and the normal undead immunities will make this charecter hard to hurt.

Well its still vulnerable to solid fog and similar things it's an extremely powerful non caster.

*.*.*.*
2010-01-09, 08:11 PM
I believe your half black dragon war troll is immune to all real damage so make him necropolitan hes immune to damage period.

Regeneration doesn't work on creatures without a con score

awa
2010-01-09, 08:15 PM
really? I checked the srd and didn't see anything mentioning it.

Edit nope never mind i found it.

Kallisti
2010-01-09, 08:19 PM
If you want melee find an outsider with low HD and LA and then advance it up to 9 HD, stack on templates until you get 9 LA, and scratch the LA. You can get a pretty impressive AC and Strength that way. For templates, I recommend Necropolitan followed by Evolved Undead eight times, assuming you can get starting LA of +0 (lesser aasimar, perhaps). Massive Strength, massive charisma, massive fast healing, and a slew of spell-like abilities.

awa
2010-01-09, 08:31 PM
is lesser asimar a outsider and wouldn't it advance by class level anyway

Brendan
2010-01-09, 08:34 PM
Trumpet archon has either a +7 or 8 LA and casts as a 14th level cleric, as well as all the other fun plusses and abilities.

drengnikrafe
2010-01-09, 08:35 PM
This thread reminds me of the time my DM said he would ignore all LA. When I showed him my build, he immediately went back on that. Good thing, too. I attached a whole horde of templates. At least he learned his lesson.

*.*.*.*
2010-01-09, 08:38 PM
Trumpet archon has either a +7 or 8 LA and casts as a 14th level cleric, as well as all the other fun plusses and abilities.

I'm trying to steer clear of celestials(or else I'd play a Ghaele)


Ultraloths look pretty cool right now, but it has too many HD for its abilities. Any other powerful fiends with LAs?

Jack_Simth
2010-01-09, 08:46 PM
I'll consider them if I need spellcasting, but I'd like to explore melee possibilities as well(my DM is extremely cruel).

Umm... a Couatl has 9 HD, +7 LA. Full BAB, d8 HD, +8 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +6 Int, +8 Wis, +6 Cha, +9 Natural Armor. You'll be at least as competent as a normal Fighter of your level.

A Rashaka has 7 HD, +7 LA. Full BAB, d8 HD, +2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +6 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +6 Charisma, +9 Natural Armor, DR 15/Good and Piercing.

The Rashaka's better at defense (due to the DR that's hard to pierce), the Couatl's better at offense (due to the strength). Both will be HD based, and both are Casters at least as good as their hit dice.

If you want a more pure melee route, look at some of the True Dragons.

Also:
Can you advance a critter by hit dice prior to nuking the LA? Being able to do so would open up some options - Say, a Nymph advanced by 1 hit die:
+7 RHD, +7 LA, casts as a 7th level Druid, Blinding Beauty in case you're swarmed by humanoids, Charisma to AC and Saves, +6 Dex, +2 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +8 Cha, DR 10/Cold Iron. Fey hit dice unfortunately have a very low BAB, so you wouldn't do so hot in melee, but it's otherwise a decent route.

*.*.*.*
2010-01-09, 08:50 PM
Umm... a Couatl has 9 HD, +7 LA. Full BAB, d8 HD, +8 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +6 Int, +8 Wis, +6 Cha, +9 Natural Armor. You'll be at least as competent as a normal Fighter of your level.

A Rashaka has 7 HD, +7 LA. Full BAB, d8 HD, +2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +6 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +6 Charisma, +9 Natural Armor, DR 15/Good and Piercing.

The Rashaka's better at defense (due to the DR that's hard to pierce), the Couatl's better at offense (due to the strength). Both will be HD based, and both are Casters at least as good as their hit dice.

Very true, but as aforementioned, being merely better than a fighter won't cut it. However, you do have some good points, both would work. If I can't decide on anything, I'll give the Couatal a try.(though it nor the rak would be as invulnerable as the war troll)



Can you advance a critter by hit dice prior to nuking the LA?My DM said nothing against it, so it is probably fair game.
Nymph
We already have a player going that route

Jack_Simth
2010-01-09, 09:26 PM
Very true, but as aforementioned, being merely better than a fighter won't cut it. However, you do have some good points, both would work. If I can't decide on anything, I'll give the Couatal a try.(though it nor the rak would be as invulnerable as the war troll)

Has the War Troll been errata'd? My copy of MM III says it's got 12 racial hit dice, which puts it out of range, doesn't it?

My DM said nothing against it, so it is probably fair game.
We already have a player going that route

Long-term, you want something with full-caster / Pseudo full-caster potential. The reason? Power curves. A Fighter-type has a fairly linear power progression, a caster-type has a more quadratic progression. At very low levels, the Fighter-type will often outperform the caster-type. After about the 5-10 range, though, the caster-type will outperform the fighter-type, and the higher the level the worse it gets (note: things change a bit deep-epic, but it takes a long time, and requires some house-rules on Epic spellcasting to tone that down).

Now, a Pseudo-full-caster is fine - a Phenric Half-Fiend (LA+6) goes very well on anything with enough racial hit dice that it's the LA that goes away (as the LA grants spell-like and psi-like abilities sufficient to make you a pseudo-caster).

Of course, if you really want something that's almost impossible to kill on your budget?

It won't be complete until about 13th or 14th (four or five more levels), however:
Unbodied (Expanded Psionic Handbook - also in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm)) taking levels in Psion, until you get high enough that you qualify for Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) (Null Psionics Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/nullPsionicsField.htm)).

The Incorporeal touch attack is not typed damage, and is not Su - which means you get to manifest Null Psionics Field (which, under transparency, also suppresses magic), preventing almost anything from hurting you (as an incorporeal, anything hurting you must be magical in nature - and there's sharp limits as to what continues in a NPF - a Soulknife can get you, as can a wizard with Orb of Force, but it's a very short list of things that have the potential to hurt you). Meanwhile, you've got a touch-attack that deals damage that you can use at will.

Even before then, though, picking up Burrowing Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#burrowingPower) and Psionic Meditation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicMeditation) means you can dive underground and zap people without letting them get line of effect back to you (note: You'll also want Quicken Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#quickenPower) and Clairvoyant Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clairvoyantSense.htm) to pull this off properly, but you can do without Quicken Power in a pinch).

Tanuki Tales
2010-01-09, 09:38 PM
Especially if the RHD=0

Then you'd be dropping absolutely nothing >.>

*.*.*.*
2010-01-09, 10:54 PM
Has the War Troll been errata'd? My copy of MM III says it's got 12 racial hit dice, which puts it out of range, doesn't it?
I can play one with 9 HD and then as I level I gain more HD, until I nab all of them. Then I can start taking class levels.



Long-term, you want something with full-caster / Pseudo full-caster potential. The reason? Power curves. A Fighter-type has a fairly linear power progression, a caster-type has a more quadratic progression. At very low levels, the Fighter-type will often outperform the caster-type. After about the 5-10 range, though, the caster-type will outperform the fighter-type, and the higher the level the worse it gets (note: things change a bit deep-epic, but it takes a long time, and requires some house-rules on Epic spellcasting to tone that down).

Now, a Pseudo-full-caster is fine - a Phenric Half-Fiend (LA+6) goes very well on anything with enough racial hit dice that it's the LA that goes away (as the LA grants spell-like and psi-like abilities sufficient to make you a pseudo-caster).

Of course, if you really want something that's almost impossible to kill on your budget?

It won't be complete until about 13th or 14th (four or five more levels), however:
Unbodied (Expanded Psionic Handbook - also in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm)) taking levels in Psion, until you get high enough that you qualify for Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) (Null Psionics Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/nullPsionicsField.htm)).

The Incorporeal touch attack is not typed damage, and is not Su - which means you get to manifest Null Psionics Field (which, under transparency, also suppresses magic), preventing almost anything from hurting you (as an incorporeal, anything hurting you must be magical in nature - and there's sharp limits as to what continues in a NPF - a Soulknife can get you, as can a wizard with Orb of Force, but it's a very short list of things that have the potential to hurt you). Meanwhile, you've got a touch-attack that deals damage that you can use at will.

Even before then, though, picking up Burrowing Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#burrowingPower) and Psionic Meditation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicMeditation) means you can dive underground and zap people without letting them get line of effect back to you (note: You'll also want Quicken Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#quickenPower) and Clairvoyant Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clairvoyantSense.htm) to pull this off properly, but you can do without Quicken Power in a pinch).
The main reason I really don't want to do many caster things is due to my previous character, a sunscorched hobgoblin cleric(he let me drop the LA). As my cleric, I ended encounters entirely by myself with ease. As long as I could get a hint towards what we would be fighting, my DM couldn't kill me without taking the whole party with me. I could clearly tell this was getting on the nerves of two of the players(monk and nymph) and my DM.


Then you'd be dropping absolutely nothing >.>

6 La isn't worth it

Draz74
2010-01-09, 11:50 PM
The main reason I really don't want to do many caster things is due to my previous character, a sunscorched hobgoblin cleric(he let me drop the LA). As my cleric, I ended encounters entirely by myself with ease. As long as I could get a hint towards what we would be fighting, my DM couldn't kill me without taking the whole party with me. I could clearly tell this was getting on the nerves of two of the players(monk and nymph) and my DM.

Well, if that's your reason: again, go for the Couatl for sure. It's quite easy to fill 9 levels of Sorcerer casting up without taking a single attack spell, even if every spell you pick is useful. Buffs and utility for the win!

Endure Elements, Scintillating Scales, Benign Transposition, Heroics, Dimensional Anchor, Greater Magic Weapon (warning: does not scale well if you don't continue to advance your caster level via Gish classes), Invisibility, See Invisibility, Magic Circle Against Evil, Resist Energy ... I highly doubt anyone in your party will mind if you have access to these.

Optimystik
2010-01-10, 12:04 AM
If you're allowed to advance via RHD instead of class levels, then Rakshasa and Couatl really are your best bets.

Another great option is being an Unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm) Psion and dumping the LA. You're telepathic (qualifying you for Mindsight), you can be any alignment, and even if you're forced to use class levels instead of RHD, you'll be very hard to kill.

*.*.*.*
2010-01-10, 12:54 AM
Mkay then guys, I'll go with a phrenic qoutal. Thanks allot everyone!

jiriku
2010-01-10, 01:09 AM
Swarmform Vampire Mindflayer. Think about it.

Alternately, an Umbral Shade Awakened Dire Tiger.