Rogues and Class Tiers

[Flarp]

I'm just starting up a campaign (no, really, just starting), and we've run into a wee bit of a snag.

Our newest player, for whom this is a first time, wants to play a rogue, a Tier 4 class. Most of us are playing Tier 1-3 classes (D20r Paladin, Wizard, and Cleric, to be precise), and I really want this to be a good experience for him.

Unfortunately, I don't trust my own ability to design encounters specifically for him. None of the other players are optimizing their characters at all, so that's fine.

What I was considering doing is simply giving him bonus feats as a fighter. For balancing purposes, what tier would this put him in? I'm thinking maybe high-3 or low-2, because that still gives him no magic.

Other options I'm considering would be persuading him to take some levels of Assassin (which doesn't really suit his CG character at all, so that's pretty much out), or having him reroll as 5d6b3.

Are these good ideas? Do you have any other options we might take?

[DragoonWraith]

When you say not optimizing at all, what do you mean? I mean, a blasty Wizard who takes Combat Casting, Magical Aptitude, Brew Potion, and Spell Mastery has a certain degree of optimization (they're all feats aimed towards improving his magical ability), but is well below "optimal" - but still better than one who decided to wear full-plate, took Combat Expertise, Power Attack, and Deceitful, or something.

A blaster Evoker without too many shenanigans could very well be Tier 3. So could a heal-bot Cleric. Not familiar enough with Fax's Paladin, but it's gotten very good reviews from those I've seen mention it. So a Rogue might fit in just fine.

Basically, you need to define what you mean by unoptimized.

[Flarp]

When you say not optimizing at all, what do you mean? I mean, a blasty Wizard who takes Combat Casting, Magical Aptitude, Brew Potion, and Spell Mastery has a certain degree of optimization (they're all feats aimed towards improving his magical ability), but is well below "optimal" - but still better than one who decided to wear full-plate, took Combat Expertise, Power Attack, and Deceitful, or something.

A blaster Evoker without too many shenanigans could very well be Tier 3. So could a heal-bot Cleric. Not familiar enough with Fax's Paladin, but it's gotten very good reviews from those I've seen mention it. So a Rogue might fit in just fine.

Basically, you need to define what you mean by unoptimized.

Good point - they aren't decidedly unoptimized, but they aren't built to destroy worlds. The wizard is a transmuter/illusionist, and cleric is indeed a healbot of sorts.

[Temotei]

If you're really worried, give him a little bit more money or Toughness/Improved Toughness.

I'd say just let him play what he wants. Give suggestions, but don't change the fundamentals.

Another idea is to maximize his hit point dice rolls, or to always give him a re-roll if he gets less than average.

[Zeta Kai]

Don't sweat it; he'll be fine. Really, the tier thing is a bit overblown. They're a great guideline for relative potential, but they are not a binding law of proper play (nor were they ever intended to be). As far as your game goes, if everyone is having fun, then TIRES DON EXITS.

Unless you're putting him in a campaign where he can't use his class features at all, then he'll be able to contribute effectively enough for his own tastes. He chose the Rogue, & presumably he did it for a reason. He wants to be a sneak, or a skillmonkey, or a stabber-in-the-darkness, & there's nothing wrong with that. You're the DM, so let him do his thing.

Look, if you're really concerned about his level of effectiveness relative to the other players, then here's a few things that you can do to help him:

Allow sneak attack to affect more things. I let SA affect any creature with a discernible anatomy; basically everything except an ooze or an elemental, & I've seen no real problems stem from this in years of play.
Notice what skills that they maximize, & then set up situations where they can use those skills. This should really apply to all of your players, as they spent those points, & they shouldn't go to waste.
Don't forget traps. Rogues are built for traps, & although Factotums are built better for traps, you should still use them from time to time, just to let them have the spotlight. Most mages aren't prepared for traps (I don't know of a single Sorcerer who could handle a trap of their CR, & Wizards are only a bit better), so the Rogue is ideal for dealing with the damned things.
Relax, have fun, & make sure the players are doing so, too.

[Flarp]

Actually, it seems it's going to work out fine (as you all have said).

The new player seems to have taken quite well to the game, and has already come up with some obscure feat combo to make him complete cheese.

So go that. Whee!

[Roderick_BR]

Out of combat, a rogue is never out of work.
If he feels weak in combat, allow his sneak attack to hurt more things as it was mentioned (maybe just make half damage against "immune to critical hits", that is pretty much giving him a few free feats that do that). And give him an AC bonus similar to the monk (+1 for every 4 levels, total of +5 as a sort of dodge bonus). That alone will give him more freedom to choose what he will do later in combat.