who goes first? (celerity, foresight, and wizards)

[taltamir]

So, if two hostile wizards meet and both have celerity and foresight... who goes first?

[Yukitsu]

The one that has initiative.

Wizard 1: Goes first
Wizard 2: Celerity
Wizard 1: Celerity to counter.

[Kallisti]

Whoever casts the last celerity. Celerity is an immediate action, so you can only cast 1 per round. And unless you're using Greater Celerity, you only get a standard action, so you don't get another chance to cast it.

So Wizard 1 goes "*Celerity!* My turn!", Wizard 2 goes "*Celerity!* Now my turn!", Wizard 2 takes his Celerity action, Wizard 1 takes his Celerity action, and then we're back in regular initiative order, although both will be dazed from casting Celerity.

[Asheram]

*coughs*

Who goes first.
What comes after that.
I don't know 's last.

[taltamir]

The one that has initiative.

Wizard 1: Goes first
Wizard 2: Celerity
Wizard 1: Celerity to counter.

that makes sense.


Whoever casts the last celerity. Celerity is an immediate action, so you can only cast 1 per round. And unless you're using Greater Celerity, you only get a standard action, so you don't get another chance to cast it.

how would greater celerity make a difference?

[Kallisti]

IIRC Greater Celerity gives you a round's worth of actions, which would let you cast another Celerity, which would shift you to the top of the order.

[Yukitsu]

that makes sense.



how would greater celerity make a difference?

Greater celerity grants additional immediate actions, so in that instance, it's a matter of who has/is willing to use more greater celerities.

[Magnor Criol]

*coughs*

Who goes first.
What comes after that.
I don't know 's last.

THIRD BASE.

[taltamir]

Greater celerity grants additional immediate actions, so in that instance, it's a matter of who has/is willing to use more greater celerities.

Ah... so the guy with more celerities wins


THIRD BASE.

http://xkcd.com/540/

[Magnor Criol]

http://xkcd.com/540/
Not the third base I meant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfmvkO5x6Ng), but XKCD wins for being XKCD anyhow.

[Asheram]

Not the third base I meant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfmvkO5x6Ng), but XKCD wins for being XKCD anyhow.

Very true. Very true.

And I Love those guys. That thing Never gets old

[nargbop]

This question is why I ban Celerity in any game that might have PvP in it.

[Runestar]

Why is there even PvP in a dnd game? :smalleek:

[JaronK]

The Wizard who shapeshifted into a Dire Tortoise so he could go in the surprise round that doesn't exist wins! ...because he can cast Celerity at the right time there too.

Wizards: Battling over who gets to go more firster in time periods that don't exist.

JaronK

[abandon hope]

Why is there even PvP in a dnd game? :smalleek:Angry bitter people with the world spiraling oddly away from them.

[Douglas]

Greater Celerity does not give 1 round's worth of actions, it gives a full round action (or standard and move, your choice). It does not help with swift or immediate actions at all.

[jmbrown]

Why is there even PvP in a dnd game? :smalleek:

Old addage. If it has stats it can be killed. Each other included.

[Kallisti]

Greater Celerity does not give 1 round's worth of actions, it gives a full round action (or standard and move, your choice). It does not help with swift or immediate actions at all.

OK. That makes more sense. In that case, yeah, the one who wins initiative gets to go first.

[flabort]

So Objects, like corpses, can be killed, because despite not having Wis or Cha scores, they have other stats? All right!
*goes & kills brother twice*

[Larspcus2]

Actually, the wizard that goes first can get off 2 standard actions before the other person can do anything, because you can't cast Celerity while flat-footed.

[JaronK]

Actually, the wizard that goes first can get off 2 standard actions before the other person can do anything, because you can't cast Celerity while flat-footed.

That's why Foresight was mentioned, it removes that problem.

JaronK

[PhoenixRivers]

Let's look at it from another point of view:

Two Cerebremancers meet, same spells (and powers)

Cere 1 wins initiative, starts to act.

Cere 2: Manifest Anticipatory Strike

Cere 1: Manifest Anticipatory Strike

Cere 2: Cast Celerity

Cere 1: Cast Celerity - Go.

This would resolve as:

Cere1: 1 action - then dazed
Cere2: 1 action - then dazed
Cere1: Take next round now - miss turn but end daze.
Cere2: Take next round now - miss turn but end daze.
Cere1: Continue with Round 1, Cerebremancer's action.

Now, Time stop or Temporal Acceleration (2 rounds or more) can alter this up a bit, but it's still fun to ponder.

[Signmaker]

\
Now, Time stop or Temporal Acceleration (2 rounds or more) can alter this up a bit, but it's still fun to ponder.

Shadowcaster's Time Stop would probably be the preferred follow-up, if we're going with the general flow of ignoring initiative count.

[Deth Muncher]

Now, Time stop or Temporal Acceleration (2 rounds or more) can alter this up a bit, but it's still fun to ponder.

Obviously, the correct answer is to Celerity into a Timestop, lose your Daze, ready a Counterspell action to counter the opponent's Celerity, then kill them.

[PhoenixRivers]

Obviously, the correct answer is to Celerity into a Timestop, lose your Daze, ready a Counterspell action to counter the opponent's Celerity, then kill them.

Better: Ready an action to manifest a high damage power on them that forces multiple saves, such as Energy Stun. Force the stun save (lose the spell), the concentration check (or lose the spell). 16d6 damage (assume electric, and overchannel) = 56 average damage, for a DC 66 Concentration check (38 on a passed save) with a DC 33 reflex save for half. In the event that they fail the reflex, they also get a DC 33 will vs stun, giving you a free round to kill them. If you want cold, it's DC 31, with fort for half, and DC 31 will vs stun, but the concentration DC's go to 82 (46). Not impossible at level 15, but close on the 80+ one.

Alternately, a damage spell that rapidscales DC (Such as Celestial Conduit). At level 15, that's 21+Caststat, or +3 more with overchannel, vs positive energy damage. The damage would be around... 15d6 (18d6 on overchannel), for average damage of 52 (63 overchannel) for a Concentration check of 62 (73), or 36 (41) on a successful save. If the cast stat is around 34 (easily possible), you're looking at a DC 33 reflex (36 on overchannel).

Damage AND lose their action.

Not to mention if you use the time stop to manifest a Schism, you can Synchronicity for a second ready action to Celerity, and continue from there.

[Deth Muncher]

Better: Ready an action to manifest a high damage power on them that forces multiple saves, such as Energy Stun. Force the stun save (lose the spell), the concentration check (or lose the spell). 16d6 damage (assume electric, and overchannel) = 56 average damage, for a DC 66 Concentration check (38 on a passed save) with a DC 33 reflex save for half. In the event that they fail the reflex, they also get a DC 33 will vs stun, giving you a free round to kill them. If you want cold, it's DC 31, with fort for half, and DC 31 will vs stun, but the concentration DC's go to 82 (46). Not impossible at level 15, but close on the 80+ one.

Alternately, a damage spell that rapidscales DC (Such as Celestial Conduit). At level 15, that's 21+Caststat, or +3 more with overchannel, vs positive energy damage. The damage would be around... 15d6 (18d6 on overchannel), for average damage of 52 (63 overchannel) for a Concentration check of 62 (73), or 36 (41) on a successful save. If the cast stat is around 34 (easily possible), you're looking at a DC 33 reflex (36 on overchannel).

Damage AND lose their action.

Not to mention if you use the time stop to manifest a Schism, you can Synchronicity for a second ready action to Celerity, and continue from there.

That...yeah. Mhm. I concede. I forgot that in the Playground, people don't go around stomping other people half-assedly: it's a fulltime sport.

[Mike_G]

This is how it would go were I the DM:

DM: Ok, you want to attack, roll initiative. Andalfgay, you win.
Andalfgay: I cast--
Umbledoreday: Ha! Celerity! Suck it, you pipe weed addict!
Andalfgay:...Uh...Well... I triple-dog-Celerity you, you cheap knockoff!
DM:.....Ok, drive safe everyone. I'll be at the bar. Next week, GURPS.

[GoC]

Obviously, the correct answer is to Celerity into a Timestop, lose your Daze, ready a Counterspell action to counter the opponent's Celerity, then kill them.

Wouldn't work. He'd just interrupt your readied action with his immediate (celerity).

[taltamir]

sounds like cerebremancers are the most powerful class in the game... because they can do celeiry and anticipatory strike... maximizing their potential to go first (which, if you use cheese, means you win).

Celerity + timestop = godly.
For extra giggles...

Round 1: if win initiative, cast timestop. If lost initiative cast celerity to steal it, then cast time stop (lose first bonus round to stun). Spend the next few rounds gating in balors until timestop ends... when time stop ends cast celerity followed by greater teleport to your fortress of Doom TM... and cast greater scrying.

[Signmaker]

sounds like cerebremancers are the most powerful class in the game... because they can do celeiry and anticipatory strike... maximizing their potential to go first (which, if you use cheese, means you win).

Celerity + timestop = godly.
For extra giggles...

Round 1: if win initiative, cast timestop. If lost initiative cast celerity to steal it, then cast time stop (lose first bonus round to stun). Spend the next few rounds gating in balors until timestop ends... when time stop ends cast greater teleport to your fortress of Doom TM... and cast greater scrying.

A dozen ways that can go wrong, but yes. Going first is a good thing to do, traditionally.

[taltamir]

A dozen ways that can go wrong, but yes. Going first is a good thing to do, traditionally.

such as? and I did make an accidental omission, it was supposed to be celerity then teleport after time stop ends.

[Signmaker]

such as? and I did make an accidental omission, it was supposed to be celerity then teleport after time stop ends.

Anticipate Teleportation. Congrats, you've not only wasted your teleportation, but you've wasted your Time Stop.

Nnnnevermind. Bad example. Psychic Poison might be a better one, albeit less used.

[taltamir]

Anticipate Teleportation. Congrats, you've not only wasted your teleportation, but you've wasted your Time Stop.

1. How did I waste the time stop? I used it to summon multiple balors for my enemy to fight.
2. anticipate teleportation does nothing to stop you teleporting away, only prevents you from teleporting into the area:


The spell has no effect on creatures attempting to teleport away from the spell’s area, although if their destination is within the area, the spell will affect their reentry as normal.

3. oops, the calling a creature feature of gate costs 1000XP, lets not do that then...

[FMArthur]

1. Two wizards vaguely consider the idea of combat with the other.
2. Contingencies trigger and they are back in their respective hideouts of unquestionable safety.

[taltamir]

1. Two wizards vaguely consider the idea of combat with the other.
2. Contingencies trigger and they are back in their respective hideouts of unquestionable safety.

lollery... so true. especially if we invoke level 9 spells... the wizards in question have genesis, meaning they have their own demi planes where even the GODS cannot enter without their consent.
why leave such a place to fight someone when you can just wake up every morning, summon a powerful outsider, and send it to the real world to do your bidding (while you watch from your scrying pool)