Alpha v. The Joker

[Meshakhad]

Alpha from Dollhouse, the Joker from The Dark Knight, in case anyone was confused.

[kpenguin]

In a straight up fight? Alpha. He simply has more skill with knives, the chosen weapon of both combatants, and the Dark Knight incarnation of Joker doesn't have any particular fighting expertise or the strength of a madman.

[golentan]

A more detailed ruleset would be much appreciated? Are we going combat or straight up magnificent bastardry? Are minions allowed? Bystanders? Gambits and counter gambits? Weaponry and mind programming and all manner of remorseless methods of madness?

[Dienekes]

Which Joker we talking about here?

DC comics serious Joker who goes toe to toe with the worlds best martial artist/detective on a daily basis and comes away relatively unscathed?

DC comics not serious Joker who only tells bad puns and dances around a bit?

BTAS Joker who combines the two?

Cesare Romaro Joker who... ok not him.

Jack Nicholson Joker who has really big balloons?

or Ledger Joker who is shown as a version of serious Joker, but quite a bit less powerful.

[kpenguin]

Errrrr...


Alpha from Dollhouse, the Joker from The Dark Knight, in case anyone was confused.

Already stated.

[Dienekes]

Bugger me blind.

And this is how I know I'm up to late.

[Green Bean]

Alpha kills Joker, but is then mobbed to death by the Joker's really creepy fangirls.

[Connington]

Ok, since everyone wants parameters, let's set some. I'm going to work off the premise that Gotham City exists in the Dollhouse's universe (taking the place of Chicago). From there, we start the series of competitions around the time The Dark Knight begins.

So, first off, driven a littler crazy by the Paul Ballard in his head, Alpha runs off to Gotham City, as far away from Echo as reasonably possible. While there, he develops a new obsession with this mysterious "Batman" stalking the city alleys. He resolves to kill him, or psychologically break him. Either way, really. Meanwhile, the Joker is doing the same thing (well, he wouldn't kill him, but you know). He won't use the exact methods from the movie, but something along the same line. But leave Harvey Dent out of it. So, with that set up:

Who breaks the Bat first? They both have whatever they normally use. In this case, that basically means knives and intimidated mooks for the both of them, although the Joker seems to prefer criminals, while Alpha takes whatever he wants. Oh, and they both have explosives as needed. The Joker wins if he gets Batman to kill someone (including him) and Alpha wins if Batman is dead, a murderer, or babbling in a corner. The Joker starts out with a better knowledge of Bats, but Alpha has his imprints.

After repeatedly getting in each other's way, Joker and Alpha have had enough of each other. They both decide their counterpart needs to die, and set about killing him. Who wins in the melee? And who wins in a contests of lethal traps?

After Bats is out of the picture, one way or another, and the fights have proved inconclusive, Alpha returns to LA, like a dog chasing a car. The Joker follows, more curious than aggressive. As Alpha tries to make Echo his again, Joker sees a chance for revenge at Alpha spoiling his fun. Besides the different target, this is basically the reverse of the first contest. Alpha has a specific goal in mind (make Echo his, by brainwashing or psyche damage or whatever) while the Joker just wants to put her out of commission, probably preferring psychological torture over simple killing. Who wins?

Finally, with Echo and Batman gone, they both kind of self implode, and decide to go out in a blaze of glory. Who causes the most damage, in a generalized count of murders, property destruction, public terror and the like, before they're killed or jailed?

[pita]

Who breaks the Bat first? They both have whatever they normally use. In this case, that basically means knives and intimidated mooks for the both of them, although the Joker seems to prefer criminals, while Alpha takes whatever he wants. Oh, and they both have explosives as needed. The Joker wins if he gets Batman to kill someone (including him) and Alpha wins if Batman is dead, a murderer, or babbling in a corner. The Joker starts out with a better knowledge of Bats, but Alpha has his imprints.
This is complicated. They're both unpredictable, they're both masters of Offscreen Teleportation, and they're both ridiculously scary. They're both also amazing at breaking in to places. However, I would think Alpha has the edge, simply because Batman doesn't know him. He can place himself in Batman's way as a witness, at which point he could easily dispatch him. This is assuming the Ballard imprint doesn't make him more merciful. The only person I think Batman would kill is Alpha, because the Joker doesn't have the time to set up another Harvey Dent. And in a simple fight, I think genius knife nut beats armored bat ninja. Also, he could probably use Topher's device to turn Batsy into a doll and then make him easy to kill.

After repeatedly getting in each other's way, Joker and Alpha have had enough of each other. They both decide their counterpart needs to die, and set about killing him. Who wins in the melee? And who wins in a contests of lethal traps?
I think The Joker wins on this one. In a straight out fight Alpha would give him some new scars to tell about, assuming he leaves him a face to talk with, but the Joker only lets it reach a fight when it's part of the plan. He'll bring the city down looking for Alpha, utilize the mob against him, and many other things. The only advantage Alpha might have is anonymity, but I'm assuming it's gone by this point. Unless Alpha can convinced a terrorized mob that he's more dangerous than the Joker (and, as much as I love Alan Tudyk, he's not nearly as scary as the Joker), he doesn't have underworld connections. The only reason he succeeded to get into the Dollhouse was because he lived there for so many years, and had a detective conveniently obsessed with it, although he did groom that detective. Both the Joker and Alpha work in the same way, and they both need time. The home turf is decisive here.
If he didn't kill Batboy, then things are much easier for him, because Batman will track down the Joker for him, and he'll be able to kill the Joker. but Batman is dead.

After Bats is out of the picture, one way or another, and the fights have proved inconclusive, Alpha returns to LA, like a dog chasing a car. The Joker follows, more curious than aggressive. As Alpha tries to make Echo his again, Joker sees a chance for revenge at Alpha spoiling his fun. Besides the different target, this is basically the reverse of the first contest. Alpha has a specific goal in mind (make Echo his, by brainwashing or psyche damage or whatever) while the Joker just wants to put her out of commission, probably preferring psychological torture over simple killing. Who wins?
The Joker can't psychologically cripple Echo. It's literally impossible, what with her being fifty people, one of whom is a sociopath. He'll have to kill her.
At the end of the day, this is really a contest whether the Joker can find out where the Dollhouse is, and what it is, and that Echo is there, before Alpha can make her his. Since Alpha will not be able to in any way (unless Ballard takes over, which could create interesting Ballard vs Ballard confrontations), this is a battle between the Joker and Echo. And I think Echo wins that one, because no only does she have the bigger backing, she's also smarter, and has a pretty good track record against Alpha, even when he was armed and she wasn't. Also, she has Boyd to protect her, and Boyd has... you know. And Alpha will try to protect her as well, since he doesn't want her dead yet.

Finally, with Echo and Batman gone, they both kind of self implode, and decide to go out in a blaze of glory. Who causes the most damage, in a generalized count of murders, property destruction, public terror and the like, before they're killed or jailed?
The Joker. He blew up a friggin hospital. Not even a contest.

Nice scenarios though. I'd like to see what your answers are.

[GoC]

OP: This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70661) may be of use to you.:smallsmile:

[GoC]

Connington: Why not make it comic book batman?

[The Glyphstone]

Cause having Bat-Alpha-Repellent Spray on his utility belt would make it too easy for the Joker, of course.:smallsmile:

[Connington]

Connington: Why not make it comic book batman?

Several reasons:

1. The OP specified TDK Joker

2. Going with Movies Joker is easier, because we've only got one source to draw on, and it's quite recent. Plenty of people on this forum (and that includes me) don't keep up with the comics, or didn't see much of the the animated series, but pretty much everyone is familiar with the movie.

3. This is the big one: It strikes me as a more even match. Comics Joker has to go toe to toe with Comics Batman on a regular basis, and does a lot of complicated engineering to make his gimmick weapons. Overall, he's a lot more powerful, and yes, cinematic, than the version of Joker that's actually in the cinema. I think that TDK Joker is a good match for Alpha, and Comics Joker is just too much. If you feel otherwise, just think through the scenarios I offered, or make your own. I'm guessing you'll find Alpha loosing pretty much all of them.

[Meshakhad]

OP: This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70661) may be of use to you.:smallsmile:

Thank you.

[Erts]

Connington: Why not make it comic book batman?

Even though I have been Ninja'd twice, I'll put in input.

Like they said, the comic book Batman and Joker are much more powerful than their movie counterparts. They both are able to keep up with super powered beings, beyond what is feasibly possible. For Batman, gymnastics and an unbelievable master with the throwing knives he carries around (seriously, whenever he knocks guns out of people's hands, he has never accidentally cut them) and he has an insane amount of endurance, falling off a building, catching with one arm, breaking it, falling a bit more, and still able to go back to crime fighting after recovery. For the Joker, he always has either a gun, a shock buzzer, or a acid or gas flower. He also has insane accuracy (non canon, but comic book, he throws a deck of cards in the air, hits both jokers and a jack.)