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Rahva
2010-01-10, 08:22 AM
So a couple of sessions ago I ran an adventure where I wanted an enemy assassin (job description, not the class) to stalk the PCs for a bit. Instead of just having him say "I've been following you since you left the tavern" I just rolled hide/spot a few times along the way.

However, I didn't want him to get discovered early so I gave him a ring with +10 to hide. There were still PCs in the party that could have spotted him, had they rolled high enough, but the chance was a lot lower.
What I didn't take into account was that the party would loot his body after they eventually killed him (how could I forget) and now the rogue has a ring of +10 hide, bringing her hide to +24 or so.
This means she can easily out-hide anything even remotely near the party's CL.

This isn't TOO bad, they can't skip encounters since the rest of the party is rubbish at sneaking, but if there's a way to simply sneak into a place, get the McGuffin and get out, the rogue just goes in alone, past all the guards and traps, gets what they need and gets out.
My solution so far is to simply challenge them in other ways that cannot be solved through stealth, or where it would just be a bad idea. I'd feel really mean if I simply took the ring away especially since it's been a while since she got it.

However, she's stealing a lot of the party's thunder since she's also the main spokeshalfling for the party (the rest is a bunch of unsociable, unshaven idiots IC). I've talked to her and she says she's just RPing what her character would do (true) but that she'll tone it down (false, though I think she's trying).
What do I do? I've recently been tempted to give the rest of the party some items of that calibre so they'll match up, but I'm afraid it'll just unbalance things more.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-10, 08:23 AM
Blindsense.

IonDragon
2010-01-10, 08:38 AM
Also, Hide doesn't get you past most traps. Being a Rogue does, but it doesn't make disarming the trap silent. Then there's Listen. A high hide doesn't make you silent either. You only need to fail Hide OR Move Silently for the baddies to be aware of you.

nyjastul69
2010-01-10, 08:47 AM
There is nothing wrong with allowing an NPC to not ever be able to seen, heard, smelled etc. without having appropriate skills or gear. At that point it's basically just a plot device.
With what you've said there absolutely no reason why you can't give the other characters items to compensate them for the Rogue being over the relative wealth of the others. It's clunky, but can be easily made to work by a competent DM.

I think your first instinct was correct. They simply can't find the assassin by DM fiat until the proper time.

Samb
2010-01-10, 08:50 AM
If for plot reasons you need her to be found you could just have your baddies find her and say that she did not make her spot check to see that they had line of sight on her while she was making her check. You have a DM screen for a reason.

Emmerask
2010-01-10, 08:50 AM
One day soon she will trigger a trap and then be surrounded by party! appropriate enemies and wont stand much of a chance alone then its time to reroll a new char and perhaps to realize that soloadventuring is quite dangerous :smallwink:

Shademan
2010-01-10, 08:53 AM
put the players in a envoirment that is more...aimed at the others.
Captain scruffbeard of the sheild-brigade will not talk to the puny halfling WOMAN! no oh no! He's only willing to chat with the fighter.
The orc barbarian refuse to let the others fight their chief in the duel of honour and brutal death, only the barbarian with his unwashed body and smelly hubris is orky enuff' for them.
etc etc etc, give em all a chance to shine!
(party beeing followed by the horde of undeads? the cleric hold them off long enuff for the others to escape! also for social stuff, the evil cleric leading the undeads is also undead and thus unbackstabable and will not talk to a halfling*)


(* halflingophobia)

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-10, 09:28 AM
You need cover or concealment to make a Hide check. A bit hard to get if the whole place is lighted. Also, opening doors tends to attract attention anyway.

GolemsVoice
2010-01-10, 09:39 AM
A caster can cast a fantastic array of spells. A Fighter can hit hard and fast, etc... Many classes have their main application in combat, where tzhey can use their talents best.
A rogue isn't necessarily a primary fighter, and he doesn't have spells he can cast each round/at the fitting opportunity. His job is sneaking, disamring traps etc...
So, where's the problem with making him better at his main thing? As somebody who's main character is a Rogue, I know that when it comes to combat, others take the main role. With a moderate BAB, only your first attack has a very likely chance of hitting, so I enjoy it whenever I can be sneaky, find and disarm traps, and generally do what only I can do.

Re'ozul
2010-01-10, 09:42 AM
Overall possibilities:

- If the ring has a crystal that houses the power: A critical melee breaks the crystal, along with the rogues hand. (in combination with any "sight" that does not need light), The ring is still worth a good amount due to the craftsmanship.

- The ring was a fire and forget construct created for the assassin. It will run out of juice after x weeks. (or gets slowly reduced to a more manageable amount)

- Something (a macguffin) uses some form of devour magic.

- The rogue finds herself to be less and less capable of teamwork, living only for the "mission" (what your players are supposed to do). Have her start making saving throws for actions that would help her comrades, increasing difficulties every in-game day or so. (This includes sharing loot, taking sidequests). If she doesn't take of the ring the effect worsens, perhaps making it necessary for her comrades to take the ring of her.

- There's a lot of other possibilities too.

Radar
2010-01-10, 09:45 AM
Remembering about shortcomings of Hide skill (needing cover, being still vulnurable to Listen checks) is one thing.
I would rather avoid making the stealthy character useless in a given situation just so the other could contribute. It would be better to construct adventures in such a way, that sneaking in is still valuable, but doesn't solve the whole problem. A MacGuffin of the session can for example be a bit too big, to just sneak away with, or there might be a hostage to rescue (better yet more then one), so the party has to barge in anyway, but sneaky PC can still fully contribute by providing intel on the guards for example. In short, your initial solution seems fine to me. Let the stealthy adventurer use her powers, but it should not solve the whole problem. Some investigation scenarios are IMO quite good, since they are more player oriented then character oriented and differences in builds won't be important much.

Riffington
2010-01-10, 10:08 AM
What level are they, anyway?
For a level 2 party, that's hella powerful. By level 8, it's just a very useful tool. If you're a level 2 party, you're probably going to want to take it away eventually (my goodness, something that powerful will surely attract those who desire it). If you're a level 7 party, wait it out and leveling will take care of it. Also, as said before, Listen.

Rahva
2010-01-10, 11:03 AM
What level are they, anyway?
They're level 6 now, 5 when they got the ring.
The party features:
- this halfling rogue specialising in daggers and snarkiness
- a swashbuckler specialising in chaotic stupid and heading towards being a fearsome pirate
- a bard
- a warmage whose player forgets he has spells

As you can probably tell from the above they don't care for optimization and they enjoy RP and cleverness over combat, although they usually fail to come up with much in the cleverness department.

Question: does listen also work on characters that are standing still? I've always assumed it doesn't.

As for hiding requiring cover etc, the rogue is pretty much always hidden unless they're in town. If she's exploring with the party she'll let them open the doors so she can stay around the corner so the enemies don't spot her.
She's tried saying "I'm going to forget to tell you, but my character is always hiding unless I say different." She is under the impression that hiding makes you magically invisible though, like you don't need an actual place to hide, probably because of WoW.

Deth Muncher
2010-01-10, 11:07 AM
Unless the Rogue has Hide In Plain Sight (y'know, that ability WotC used 12 times without stopping to realize each iteration did something different), introduce the halogen lightbulb wherever the MacGuffin is stored.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-10, 11:09 AM
Should have made the Assassin a Totemist. At least they can't loot the Soulmelds...

Skaven
2010-01-10, 11:16 AM
Scent, and listen checks.

Also, consider irregular ground. Gravel and the like can easily lower move silently. Dust can leave footprints that lead guards, etc.

IonDragon
2010-01-10, 11:27 AM
Question: does listen also work on characters that are standing still? I've always assumed it doesn't.

That's really up to you, although a compelling argument could be made for why it shouldn't. But if your rogue is holding still... she's with the party right? Otherwise how could she have gotten there?

Eldan
2010-01-10, 11:29 AM
Also:

Arcane Sight/Detect magic should pick up the ring.
Blindsense and Blindsight.
Lifesense.
Scent.
Swampy ground: footprints.
Alarm spells.

There are many non-visual ways to detect someone, and a competent badguy should have some of them around.

Still, you shouldn't screw over all of the rogue's attempt at sneaking: he's good at it, so let him do it a few times. He takes the macguffin and begins to run out, someone sees that it's gone and they start sealing doors...
Then the party has to bust in and save him. That way, everyone still gets something to do.

pasko77
2010-01-10, 12:02 PM
So a couple of sessions ago I ran an adventure where I wanted an enemy assassin (job description, not the class) to stalk the PCs for a bit. Instead of just having him say "I've been following you since you left the tavern" I just rolled hide/spot a few times along the way.

However, I didn't want him to get discovered early so I gave him a ring with +10 to hide. There were still PCs in the party that could have spotted him, had they rolled high enough, but the chance was a lot lower.
What I didn't take into account was that the party would loot his body after they eventually killed him (how could I forget) and now the rogue has a ring of +10 hide, bringing her hide to +24 or so.
This means she can easily out-hide anything even remotely near the party's CL.

This isn't TOO bad, they can't skip encounters since the rest of the party is rubbish at sneaking, but if there's a way to simply sneak into a place, get the McGuffin and get out, the rogue just goes in alone, past all the guards and traps, gets what they need and gets out.
My solution so far is to simply challenge them in other ways that cannot be solved through stealth, or where it would just be a bad idea. I'd feel really mean if I simply took the ring away especially since it's been a while since she got it.

However, she's stealing a lot of the party's thunder since she's also the main spokeshalfling for the party (the rest is a bunch of unsociable, unshaven idiots IC). I've talked to her and she says she's just RPing what her character would do (true) but that she'll tone it down (false, though I think she's trying).
What do I do? I've recently been tempted to give the rest of the party some items of that calibre so they'll match up, but I'm afraid it'll just unbalance things more.

Well, as others pointed out, Hide is no big deal.
I would further raise the question and ask u: What are you gonna do when your PCs will be able to reliably use invisibility, fly or, gods forbid, teleport?
Be prepared! :)

Lycan 01
2010-01-10, 02:37 PM
Sneaking on ahead of the party, she enters a long hallway. Halfway down the hall, all the doors slam shut, and the torches go out. Everything becomes pitch black.

The Rogue has 1d4 rounds to produce a strong source of light before she is eaten by a Grue. :smallamused:


To make it more challenging (if a bit unfair) you can ask her to make rolls with tough DCs, like a unmodified DC 15 to light a torch since a chill wind is blowing and/or her hands are shaking with fear. You can easily make it doomy enough for the party to only find a blood smear and some gnawed bones when they enter the hallway later on themselves.


If you do actually go with this idea, be sure to give her some bonus XP or equipment or something for her next character to make up for the total DM screw-over. :smalltongue:

Dixieboy
2010-01-10, 03:41 PM
-snip-
You have been tainted by CoC, begone mad one!

Rahva
2010-01-10, 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
-snip-
You have been tainted by CoC, begone mad one!

And Zork.
Man every time I say the word I have to play it again.

Glass Mouse
2010-01-10, 05:06 PM
I do NOT recommend screwing over the player, killing her, punishing her or taking the ring away. She didn't do anything wrong in getting the ring, and seriously - who wouldn't love solving problems by doing what they're good at?

I vote for adventures that are non-solveable by sneaking. Fx a tournament. Maybe some players could fight, while the others discover cheating (maybe the whole thing is a set-up) and need to unravel.
How about talky stuff? Wouldn't that be the bard's time to shine? Especially if they like being "clever", a bard is invaluable as distraction.
I also like the idea of solo-sneaking going wrong, and the others having to help.
Another idea could be to have a sudden time limit. You're not sneaking very well when you all have to run faster than time can fly. "Okay, from we enter 'til the monster reappears, we've got less than two minutes. Everyone, RUN!"

Try demanding the rogue to tell HOW she's hiding. Give her bonuses or penalties, based on these descriptions (make sure she knows it goes both ways, so it doesn't feel like punishment). This requires you to provide texture (but if they're big on RP'ing, they probably won't mind). It even gives you the opportunity to occasionally place her in a setting where hiding is practically impossible. And to make her heart rate jump by descriping how the bad guy comes closer and closer to her hiding place.
An added bonus to this is that she may be inclined to hide a little less often.

Another, alternative thought...
If she's ALWAYS hiding, that may attract attention in its own right. If the party meets an NPC while the rogue is hiding, and she suddenly jumps out of the shadows to join the conversation, have the NPC become frightened and suspicious. It would force her to use her hiding a bit more carefully, so as to not alienate potentially useful NPCs.
This could easily become a pattern while being completely realistic (in some situations more than others, of course).
Really, people stepping out of thin air is something that attracts a lot of attention.

taltamir
2010-01-10, 05:21 PM
1. Guard dogs (scent is unaffected by hiding).
2. Listen checks
3. Traps make noise when sprung. or might directly sound an alarm
4. Alarm spells
5. Is it really so bad that one of the weakest (combat wise) classes in the game gets to shine once in a blue moon by doing something out of combat? (nobody is playing a monk or a truenamer, right?)

note that 2 and 3 can be bypassed by the wizard casting silence on the rogue... but he can also cast invisibility sphere to give everyone perfect hiding.

Oh, and without "hide in plain sight" she is not even allowed to attempt a hide check in many situations (aka, high amount of light and no cover).

Shardan
2010-01-10, 05:23 PM
Nah.. just let the rogue start relying on it and suddenly the ring fizzles out.. seems it wasn't a permanent item.. only temporary :O

What horrible situation will he be in when that happens..

(and how could you NOT anticipate the party looting the guy... this is D&D... people loot frogs and rats here)

lsfreak
2010-01-10, 05:24 PM
Also, keep in mind that as their fame spreads, people will start to know things about them. Like that there is always one of them that hides in the shadows.

This means that, while people who haven't heard of them go about their business, that main enemies or people with some preparation will know more of what to do. Clerics or druids start casting daylight and friends, maybe even battlefield illumination (heroes of battle) to try and flush her out of the shadows, or there are 'reserves' in hiding meant to show themselves only once she does. If you allow her to sneak attack after combat has started, by staying in the shadows until someone is distracted and then attacking (it would make sense that this person is flat-footed against her attack, if not everyone else), then perhaps once they see who they are fighting they either keep active lookout to the shadows, retreat to a safer spot, or so on.

Don't forget that you have to have something to hide with! Someone can't sneak through an empty room and expect not to be seen. It doesn't make much sense that the macguffin is in a place it would be easy to sneak into - well lit, well-guarded. Some place sneaking just doesn't work. Also, instead of having the macguffin sitting on an altar in the middle of the dungeon where it's just asking to be stolen, it's a ring that the head guy always wears, or in the envelop he always keeps on his person, or nice and safe, stitched under the skin of the hydra.

This allows the rogue to do some things - like either lingering behind or going ahead of the party in order to get off a full sneak attack - without making it too easy for them to steal the spotlight too much.

EDIT: Do make sure to give them some opportunities to use their stealth, though, like sneaking in and altering an important document before it is delivered or slitting a guard's throat letting them pass the first of several checkpoints into an enemy camp unhindered.

Evard
2010-01-10, 06:07 PM
old school, infravision (infrared vision)

taltamir
2010-01-10, 06:10 PM
old school, infravision (infrared vision)

wet mud?
I don't see how infra vision helps against hide checks... scent and listen, yes... blindsense, yes... mind detection, yes... (btw, there are a bunch of spells that detect minds, low level too; hasn't been mentioned yet)

I guess you could say infra vision makes it as if dark areas are "well lit"... which means you are not allowed to hide without "hide in plain sight"... but that should already be taken care of via the "well lit rooms"

Raging Gene Ray
2010-01-10, 06:14 PM
Have the McGuffin or the area around it have a built in feature where it casts Glitterdust as soon as it's picked up/stepped into. This will impose a -40 penalty to Hide checks that would leave even Epic level Shadowdancers vulnerable to the Spot checks of the guards.

You seem like a nice DM, so you don't want to kill the halfling too good. Just have a few guards put some arrows in her if she goes it alone (if she brings the rest of the party, she has a way to take care of the guards, but no way to hide her comrades).

AFS
2010-01-10, 06:15 PM
I do NOT recommend screwing over the player, killing her, punishing her or taking the ring away. She didn't do anything wrong in getting the ring.

I do. I think you need to take the ring away ASAP.


who wouldn't love solving problems by doing what they're good at?

The other players cause now they feel like they are treated unfair and the ring bearer gets a special ring and they didn’t. Giving the other characters over powered equipment won’t solve anything either. Taking the ring away isn’t punishment, make it about role playing and not stat playing.

Creating other ways around the hide skill won’t solve anything either. Now you are making her hidden, stinky and loud? That just sounds like people are trying to weasel around the real issue – the ring.

Simple solution, hit the reset button and get everyone back on even playing field, take the ring back.


Overall possibilities:

- If the ring has a crystal that houses the power: A critical melee breaks the crystal, along with the rogues hand. (in combination with any "sight" that does not need light), The ring is still worth a good amount due to the craftsmanship.

- The ring was a fire and forget construct created for the assassin. It will run out of juice after x weeks. (or gets slowly reduced to a more manageable amount)

- Something (a macguffin) uses some form of devour magic.

- The rogue finds herself to be less and less capable of teamwork, living only for the "mission" (what your players are supposed to do). Have her start making saving throws for actions that would help her comrades, increasing difficulties every in-game day or so. (This includes sharing loot, taking sidequests). If she doesn't take of the ring the effect worsens, perhaps making it necessary for her comrades to take the ring of her.

- There's a lot of other possibilities too.

taltamir
2010-01-10, 06:22 PM
its a +10 to hide ring... it is one of the most useless magic items ever created... I doubt I'd even use it as a rogue. why are people demanding the death of the rogue or destruction of the ring?
I am utterly amazed that she is able to overshadow the rest of the party...

OP, what classes are everyone playing? are the others palying true namers and monks or something? Is your wizard taking nothing by evocation spells and actually owns a dagger?

JaronK
2010-01-10, 06:24 PM
Do NOT take the ring away. One thing I've noticed is that PCs absolutely love it when they get to be good at what they do, in fact better than expected. They want to play heroes who rock, not witless minions that are barely scraping by. Just make sure that the whole encounters can't be solved entirely by hiding, but make it useful. Set up something where the Rogue has to assassinate someone, but when they do it'll make some noise and the guards would kill him... so the party needs to make a distraction to get the guards away after the Rogue is in position but before he strikes.

Honestly, a +10 item around this level is not over the top at all. Rogues SHOULD be able to sneak around. Just make scenarios where that's quite helpful, but the party is needed to.

JaronK

Evard
2010-01-10, 06:30 PM
wet mud?
I don't see how infra vision helps against hide checks... scent and listen, yes... blindsense, yes... mind detection, yes... (btw, there are a bunch of spells that detect minds, low level too; hasn't been mentioned yet)

I guess you could say infra vision makes it as if dark areas are "well lit"... which means you are not allowed to hide without "hide in plain sight"... but that should already be taken care of via the "well lit rooms"


rogue is hiding in the dark? the monster or person see's them anyways its the mother/father to dark vision

you could say that some monsters could see heat *shrug*

JaronK
2010-01-10, 06:34 PM
Ugh, all of this is why I stopped playing Rogues. Fighters were allowed to kill things, but whenever the DM didn't want me hiding I just got seen no matter what. Stealth just never works due to DM fiat. It's lame. If you're going to nerf the hide skill to be only useful when it's useless, tell the Rogue in advance so he can play another class.

JaronK

taltamir
2010-01-10, 06:43 PM
Ugh, all of this is why I stopped playing Rogues. Fighters were allowed to kill things, but whenever the DM didn't want me hiding I just got seen no matter what. Stealth just never works due to DM fiat. It's lame. If you're going to nerf the hide skill to be only useful when it's useless, tell the Rogue in advance so he can play another class.

JaronK

+1...

speaking of which, I am also sick of playing wizards/sorcerers... DMs hate them and nerf the hell out of them... sure on char ops they are god, but then all the abusive spells, feats, abilities, and whatnot that make the gods get banned and they are just not worth playing anymore.
Varsuvious was right.

OP, you make her unable to stealth, and if she doesn't throw a fit or leave she will just toss the rogue in the rubbish bin and roll a class you don't hate on.

AFS
2010-01-10, 07:23 PM
The rogue should still have the best stealth abilities in the group with or without the ring.

I guess it all depends on how th GM runs the ability.

But in 4e and other d20 (SWSE) isn't all the sight, smell, sense stuff under one skill, perception?

Using 4e and SWSE then a +10 is a major deal.

For example lets say a standard rogue has a dex mod of +2 and they train stealth. Right off the bat at level 1 they have a stealth skill of 7, which is not bad. But increasing that to 17 at level one isn't OP?

Adancing the character to level 10 lets assume their dex score remains the same at +2. At this point the skill would be +2, +5,+5 (1/2 Level) or +10.

Without the ring at level 10 they still only have a +12 stealth. The level 1 character with the ring has +17.

If the player wanted to be even better at stealth they could spend a feat on skill emphasis (isn't that another +5?)

So base skill with skill emphasis (+5), trained (+5), dex mod (+2), with the ring (+10) at level 1 is 22.

I don't remember how 3.5e works but to me the chance of having a 22 bonus at level 1 is OP.

I think she said the characters were level 6 (+3 for 1/2 level) so at level 6 they'd have a 25 skill.

FishAreWet
2010-01-10, 07:37 PM
The rogue should still have the best stealth abilities in the group with or without the ring.

I guess it all depends on how th GM runs the ability.

But in 4e and other d20 (SWSE) isn't all the sight, smell, sense stuff under one skill, perception?

Using 4e and SWSE then a +10 is a major deal.

For example lets say a standard rogue has a dex mod of +2 and they train stealth. Right off the bat at level 1 they have a stealth skill of 7, which is not bad. But increasing that to 17 at level one isn't OP?

Adancing the character to level 10 lets assume their dex score remains the same at +2. At this point the skill would be +2, +5,+5 (1/2 Level) or +10.

Without the ring at level 10 they still only have a +12 stealth. The level 1 character with the ring has +17.

If the player wanted to be even better at stealth they could spend a feat on skill emphasis (isn't that another +5?)

So base skill with skill emphasis (+5), trained (+5), dex mod (+2), with the ring (+10) at level 1 is 22.

I don't remember how 3.5e works but to me the chance of having a 22 bonus at level 1 is OP.

I think she said the characters were level 6 (+3 for 1/2 level) so at level 6 they'd have a 25 skill.

In 3.5, a level 1 Whisper Gnome has...

+4 Small
+4 Racial
+4 Ranks
+2 MW item
+4 Dex
=+22.

that's not trying hard.

AFS
2010-01-10, 07:48 PM
In 3.5, a level 1 Whisper Gnome has...

+4 Small
+4 Racial
+4 Ranks
+2 MW item
+4 Dex
=+22.

that's not trying hard.

It all depends on the system then.
With what Fish said then it isn't that OP in 3.5e

taltamir
2010-01-10, 07:52 PM
3.5 has the problem that all those skills are completely separate; and there are tons of spells and restrictions and the like that make it not work... its not over powered, its nearly useless. I can see how it would be a big deal to have a +10 to skill item in 4e, but this is stricktly a 3e discussion where:

1. there are a million different skills
2. skills are not as level dependent.
3. you can easily boost skills into the stratosphere, as in, 50+ modifier by level 5 (if you cared enough to even bother).

the wizard, on the other hand. Can just cast invisibility (effectively +infinity to hide) and silence (effectively +infinity to move silently).

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-10, 07:54 PM
The fact that you can do it at first level doesn't mean it's not overpowered.

But yes, in 3.5, things are different. All these alternatives we're suggesting aren't weaseling around the problem - they're using the detection abilities that are par for the course in 3e. Scent, Listen, and lack of cover are fundamental counters to stealth. If we were breaking out Dolgaunts, Mindsight, and their ilk, that would be cheap - but all we're doing is making the rogue invest the same amount of resources as any other rogue.


the wizard, on the other hand. Can just cast invisibility (effectively +infinity to hide) and silence (effectively +infinity to move silently).

+infinity to Hide? Are you kidding me? It's only +20 or +40, and it's pathetically easy to break through at higher levels. Uber-stealth does not depend on invisibility.
Good point about silence, but it's not on the wizard list by default.

deuxhero
2010-01-10, 07:54 PM
I am of the track that "the character is good at a something that isn't that useful, let them be good at it"

taltamir
2010-01-10, 07:56 PM
The fact that you can do it at first level doesn't mean it's not overpowered.

But yes, in 3.5, things are different. All these alternatives we're suggesting aren't weaseling around the problem - they're using the detection abilities that are par for the course in 3e. Scent, Listen, and lack of cover are fundamental counters to stealth. If we were breaking out Dolgaunts, Mindsight, and their ilk, that would be cheap - but all we're doing is making the rogue invest the same amount of resources as any other rogue.

hey, I am one of those suggesting guard dogs... there SHOULD be guards dogs... and well lit rooms, and actual guards watching the mcguffin...

but some of the suggestions here are:
1. Destroy the ring (either via sunder, or via pure DM fiat of just having the enchantment on it spontaneously fail when she is surrounded by enemies)
2. Kill the character when she tries to use her ability (oops, there was a slay living trap on it) or (oops, there was a glitterdust trap on it, and lots of really powerful guards which you need to fight alone)
3. DM fiat it to just not work.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-10, 08:00 PM
Other Suggestions:
Let her keep the ring (but deduct cost from WBL).

taltamir
2010-01-10, 08:03 PM
+infinity to Hide? Are you kidding me? It's only +20 or +40, and it's pathetically easy to break through at higher levels. Uber-stealth does not depend on invisibility.
Good point about silence, but it's not on the wizard list by default.

um, I just checked the invisibility
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Invisibility.htm

the spell says you are invisible, period.
hide is when you hide in shadows and they don't see you, invisibility just IS.

EDIT:
ok, it is not specified in the spell description, but i see it now... in the hide description it mentions invisibility:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/Hide.htm


If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.

FishAreWet
2010-01-10, 08:05 PM
um, I just checked the invisibility
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Invisibility.htm

the spell says you are invisible, period.
hide is when you hide in shadows and they don't see you, invisibility just IS.

EDIT:
ok, it is not specified in the spell description, but i see it now... in the hide description it mentions invisibility:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/Hide.htm

Except for everyone and there mom being able to see through invisibility. You can still be 'sensed' by anyone with a DC 20 spot and pinpointed with a DC 30 I think.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-10, 08:06 PM
Yes, it possible to spot a invisible target with spot. Which is why having a few ranks in Hide helps stop that.

lsfreak
2010-01-10, 08:06 PM
And if you're not actively hiding - like in combat - all it takes is a 20 Spot to see which square you're in provided you are 'nearby,' as listed under Spot.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-10, 08:07 PM
There are ways to eliminate the item's effectiveness without destroying it. The item may be temporary - that doesn't necessarily mean its failure will be spontaneous. It could slowly drain out, going from +10 to +9, +8, +7, ... because they needed a Hide ring cheap for this assignment, and cut corners. The ring could only work for Evil people. The ring could work for non-Evil people but drain their life. Of course, these can be overcome with a simple UMD check - but that's an adequate cost for the small bonus.

Invisibility: See Epic Spot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spot). My brief summary was inaccurate, but I hold to my point. Invisibility is decent if it holds, but it's much too easy to counter.

Dragero
2010-01-10, 08:09 PM
The assasin was hired by a lich in order to gather info on them. The ring is the liches phyacry (the thing that holds his soul) which he entrusts to his folower (think: redcloak and xykon)

The party encounters the lich, and he gives ovoise clues that the ring is his. The rouge must DESTROY the ring (in a covieniently located furnace) or be killed!

Problem solved :D

Lysander
2010-01-10, 08:10 PM
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

Hide isn't invisibility. No concealment = no hide check. You can't hide in a flat barren field, or in a hallway with nothing to hide behind.

And if there is stuff to hide behind, like a forest or in a city, why shouldn't your rogue get their sneak on? Even if there are hiding places, each time someone enters a room they get a spot check. In guarded areas a patrol will eventually roll a 20. If they know someone is hiding there they can look for them again every round. And the rogue still needs to make move silently checks.

taltamir
2010-01-10, 08:35 PM
The assasin was hired by a lich in order to gather info on them. The ring is the liches phyacry (the thing that holds his soul) which he entrusts to his folower (think: redcloak and xykon)

The party encounters the lich, and he gives ovoise clues that the ring is his. The rouge must DESTROY the ring (in a covieniently located furnace) or be killed!

Problem solved :D

not as bad as some of the **** moves suggested by others...
although, the smart thing to do would be to destroy the lichs current body, then get an artificer to disenchant it :)

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-10, 08:37 PM
That would be hilarious and awesome. The problem is that these characters are only 6th level.

I suggest, for the lulz, making the lich be a Kobold Adept 7/Commoner 4 with Practiced Spellcaster.

taltamir
2010-01-10, 08:40 PM
or just a half lich (as in, someone who had a failed incomplete lich transformation because they are too low a level, not... shudder... dnd "biology")

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-10, 08:42 PM
There are half-vampires, and feats representing intercourse with liches...
Bone Lord from MM5 (or was it MM4?) can work as a quasi-lich, although it doesn't officially have phylactery powers. A strong CR 8, IIRC.

Demented
2010-01-10, 09:47 PM
As the game Thief taught me, the bane of all characters with a high Hide skill is a guard who doesn't patrol. :smallbiggrin: Other than that, is it really so bad that one trivial skill check has become difficult to fail? It really shouldn't help you with 99.5% of the difficulty of stealing a macguffin...

There should be more ways for Hide and other skill checks to be useful, while there should be nil ways for Hide or any other skill check to solve a problem that is worthy of the entire party's attention.

taltamir
2010-01-10, 09:51 PM
There are half-vampires, and feats representing intercourse with liches...

wait... what? in which book exactly?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-10, 09:52 PM
LICHLOVED [VILE]
By repeatedly committing perverted sex acts with the undead, the character gains dread powers.

BoVD.

By God, the flavor text is even more horrible than I remembered.

deuxhero
2010-01-10, 09:55 PM
You are sure that is from the BoVD, not BoEF?

taltamir
2010-01-10, 09:58 PM
You are sure that is from the BoVD, not BoEF?

You mean BoVD is not a nickname for BoEF? /kidding

this is one of the few RARE things in BoVD that are worthy of the term "vile"... normally I say that the BoVD is more of "book of cartoonish evil" while the BoEF is actually the book of vileness (aka, book of vile deeds)

Physics_Rook
2010-01-11, 12:14 AM
As has been mentioned, it seems that the party is more interested in the role-playing aspect of the game.

If you think you're able, you might consider making the ring an item of greater importance. As many have suggested, consider how the would-be stalker came into possession of such a ring. A ring which you've mentioned is somewhat above the power-league that the party currently rests in.

Did the stalker acquire the ring from some one else? Was it a gift or reward for services, with it's own history? Does the ring have any special markings that would identify it to somebody? What if the ring signifies some very specific thing (e.g. a cult of assassins), how would someone who recognized it react upon seeing a PC casually wearing it in the open.

These aren't ideas to get the PC to throw away the ring. Rather, they're ideas for giving the ring a history that the players can become aware of later, and eventually have to resolve.

I find that this idea attaches a weight to the ring. Rather than just being an anonymous bonus to a skill, it's a significantly powerful magic item with it's own bloody trail of history, that the PCs could get wrapped up in. It'll serve as a reminder that they aren't the only ones throwing their weight around in the world.

It shouldn't make the PCs want to ditch the ring, but it should make them a little more cautious before pilfering anything that's not nailed down. :smallbiggrin:

In short, I find that if a player's actions or abilities seem to be getting a little out of hand, don't just put a wall in front of them (as they're liable to either kill themselves or break through anyway), just throw a few curves at them.

GolemsVoice
2010-01-11, 12:44 AM
I really can't understand why you would punish the player for a mistake you made. I don't say it was a bad mistake, but it was still YOUR mistake, as a DM. Under no circumstances should you punish the player for making use of the ring they rightfully (in a D&D way) acquired.
That doesn't mean you can't make sneaking hard for the Rogue. A lot of things can go wrong even without you actively trying to screw the Rogue over. No matter how many ranks one has, low rolls, or high opposed rolls, are always possible. Being found out deep within enemy territorý is never pretty. Rogues normally don't hav emany magic abilities, so while they may detect and deactivate traps, scrying or alarm spell effects would be beyond her. And as other posters said, there are areas that are just naturally hard to sneak into. If she is clever, and still manages it (due to a very cunning plan, or incredible rolls), I'd say let her have it once. She's earned it. Just see that the player is aware of the many dangers of sneaking, dangers that can't be solved by even the beast Hide skill.

Kallisti
2010-01-11, 12:59 AM
I really can't understand why you would punish the player for a mistake you made. I don't say it was a bad mistake, but it was still YOUR mistake, as a DM. Under no circumstances should you punish the player for making use of the ring they rightfully (in a D&D way) acquired.
That doesn't mean you can't make sneaking hard for the Rogue. A lot of things can go wrong even without you actively trying to screw the Rogue over. No matter how many ranks one has, low rolls, or high opposed rolls, are always possible. Being found out deep within enemy territorý is never pretty. Rogues normally don't hav emany magic abilities, so while they may detect and deactivate traps, scrying or alarm spell effects would be beyond her. And as other posters said, there are areas that are just naturally hard to sneak into. If she is clever, and still manages it (due to a very cunning plan, or incredible rolls), I'd say let her have it once. She's earned it. Just see that the player is aware of the many dangers of sneaking, dangers that can't be solved by even the beast Hide skill.

This, although the idea for the cursed ring that makes the rogue more and more determined to work alone is also a good way to get rid of the ring if it's really disrupting game balance that much. Still, don't punish the player by giving every enemy blindsense or smashing her loot.

SethFahad
2010-01-11, 03:47 AM
You must tell the halfing to take ring to Mordor and cast it into the lake of fire in mount Doom.
Err... wrong halfing and ring story?... Hm..
"The ring must be destroyed!!!"

Aha!

Expose the halfling in a fiery hazard (breath weapon, fire trap, fire ball etc) and voila! Ring is destoyed. Melted.

DM Rules!

starwoof
2010-01-11, 03:55 AM
I don't think you need to eliminate the item's effectiveness or destroy it or whatever. If the problem is that she is just sneaking past things while the rest of the party sit on their thumbs, give the other players equally cool things. They wont want to let her sneak in if they have a +1 Flail of Bashing Fools.

That's worked for most of my screw ups anyway.

Emmerask
2010-01-11, 04:53 AM
its a +10 to hide ring... it is one of the most useless magic items ever created... I doubt I'd even use it as a rogue. why are people demanding the death of the rogue or destruction of the ring?
I am utterly amazed that she is able to overshadow the rest of the party...


The problem is not really the ring its the tendency to go solo adventuring the death of the rogue is just the consequenc of a failed attampt (that will happen some day) because the enemies will be balanced for the group and not for him alone.


+1...

speaking of which, I am also sick of playing wizards/sorcerers... DMs hate them and nerf the hell out of them... sure on char ops they are god, but then all the abusive spells, feats, abilities, and whatnot that make the gods get banned and they are just not worth playing anymore.
Varsuvious was right.


They are not worthless they are just not gods anymore in actual gameplay :smalltongue:

Fishy
2010-01-11, 05:33 AM
Here's a wacky idea:

"Hey guys, I think I accidentally made that ring too good, and now I'm having a hard time making level-appropriate encounters for you guys. I know you're having fun with it, but what if we toned down to a +5 until you gained a few levels?"

lord_khaine
2010-01-11, 05:42 AM
I must say i think there are a lot of bad advice here, dont destroy the ring or punish the player, just remember the limitations of hide, the rogue wont be able to sneak past any area without cover or concealment.

Also, the move silent skill is not buffed, that means people can allways hear the rogue.

dsmiles
2010-01-11, 05:50 AM
I think your best option is to find items that work well for the other classes, at about the same power level as a Ring of Hiding +10, and work them into the treasure piles without an item for the rogue. Balances the power level of the party easily. Sure, you may ahve to bump up CRs for a few sessions, but don't take away the characters cool items if it's your fault they got it in the first place.

DM Rule #22: Don't put an item where your characters can get it, if you don't want them to have it in the first place.

Lord Herman
2010-01-11, 06:03 AM
My DM made the same mistake once, letting my rogue get his hands on a Ring of the Chameleon (which gives a +10 to Hide). In the end, my DM let me trade it for a Ring of Invisibility. That made it easier on both of us; I could hide more easily in combat and get more sneak attacks off, but he could use See Invisibility to keep me from sneaking into places I wasn't supposed to go.

2xMachina
2010-01-11, 06:10 AM
Shouldn't a guarded door stop any hiders? People will notice the door opening.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-11, 06:19 AM
Snip!

Oh hai I got this 4u ^_^
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp04152004.shtml

Also an etherial filtcher would like that ring, or it could be an intelegent item, or it could be the assassins item familiar.

lord_khaine
2010-01-11, 06:21 AM
A single guard should be enough for that, as long as you give him a torch or something then the rogue wont be able to sneak past him, since there wont be anything to hide in or behind.

really, a couple of Orc guards is everything it takes to keep that rogue out, since they can see in the dark, and he cant.

ondonaflash
2010-01-11, 06:45 AM
What if, while making the halfling more easily concealed from the eyes of mortal men, it also made her more visible to
the vile senses of the nazgul and their dark master Sauron?

Rahva
2010-01-11, 07:17 AM
Wow, I go away to sleep and this is what happens. So I'm just going through some of the posts, I'm not going to quote since I'm sort of in a hurry.


To clarify:

The rogue is level 5. She has a +24 to hide (with the ring).

The rogue is doing the most damage in combat since the party does not have a pure fighter class and the warmage is light on the "mage" (the player usually forgets she has spells, but when he doesn't he does outdamage the rogue).

The rogue handles all the party's diplomatic/talky encounters (unless they are directed directly at one of the other characters and even then they usually turn to her) and is the group leader. Mostly because she's the most extroverted of them IRL.

She does not shine once in a blue moon, but all the time, while the rest of the group is doing their best just to keep up. I"m not sure if they mind, but I would like to give them some attention as well.

All my adventures have some way where either talking or sneaking will get you at least some way there because I want them to make up their own plans instead of doing what they think the adventure wants them to do.

The rest of the party is:
Swashbuckler
Warmage (so yes, he does take evocation spells only but he also hoards scrolls)
Bard
They are facing enemies appropriate to their level, which was 5 when they got it, 6 now.

So perhaps I should indeed be focussed on making the rest of the party less useless.

Tell me I'm hating on the rogue class again, I double dare you. :smalltongue: Rogue is my personal favourite class since I care nothing for tier lists. In fact I almost exclusively play rogue. The problem here is not with the rogue class but with the I Win button I handed this particular rogue (admittedly caused by my not knowing how to handle hide rules).
Also, I would LOVE a wizard/sorcerer in the party that knows his stuff.
Please don't take your personal frustrations with your DMs out on me :smallsmile:

Anyway, thanks for all the input. Guard dogs seem like a good idea and while in the current setting (middle of a city with lots of humanoids but few monsters) blindsense will probably not come up often I'll certainly keep it in mind, and of course the fact that she needs something to hide behind. :smallbiggrin:

I'm not going to destroy the ring, though I might make it plot central in some way (I'll have to think on that). I'll definitely get the other guys some phat lewt as well. In a while it will all become useless anyway, like some of you have said.

ondonaflash
2010-01-11, 08:20 AM
I'm not going to destroy the ring, though I might make it plot central in some way (I'll have to think on that). I'll definitely get the other guys some phat lewt as well. In a while it will all become useless anyway, like some of you have said.

Anduril? Narsil reborn! A lock of hair from an elven princess? A Phial of Light?

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-11, 09:17 AM
Anduril? Narsil reborn! A lock of hair from an elven princess? A Phial of Light?

....:amused:

I would LOVE to see a D&D/LoTR campaign journal but with highly optimized characters and not clones from the books ^_^

IonDragon
2010-01-11, 09:20 AM
....:amused:

I would LOVE to see a D&D/LoTR campaign journal but with highly optimized characters and not clones from the books ^_^

Then what do you do when the Wizard gets on the Druid's Dire Bat animal companion and just fly's in with the ring invisible?

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-11, 09:27 AM
Then what do you do when the Wizard gets on the Druid's Dire Bat animal companion and just fly's in with the ring invisible?

Fire the Nazgul out of catapults at him. Equip the person firing the siege weapon with see invis. goggles and true strike gloves ^_^

Also give the Nazgul a handful of that magic glue stuff so they can stay on the bat when they hit.

Drascin
2010-01-11, 09:37 AM
Then what do you do when the Wizard gets on the Druid's Dire Bat animal companion and just fly's in with the ring invisible?

Important note: the Sauron in Optimized Middle Earth is equally able to optimize - or even more so, since he practically doesn't have a gp limit on the money he can spend in resources, what with his nigh-infinite income from the southern Men, while the players very much do.

Plus, this is Sauron - he gets continuously called an eye of all things. Of course he has permanent True Seeing and a Spot check over seventy at the least. You'd need some pretty epic Hide to get past him in Mordor airspace.

I'd suggest tunnel digging, personally. Mind the advanced spiders with optimized grapple feats, though.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-11, 11:28 AM
Wow, I go away to sleep and this is what happens. So I'm just going through some of the posts, I'm not going to quote since I'm sort of in a hurry.


To clarify:

The rogue is level 5. She has a +24 to hide (with the ring).

Not really that big of a deal, honestly. Rogues are sorta supposed to be good at hiding anyway. This check is easily obtainable without the item.


The rogue is doing the most damage in combat since the party does not have a pure fighter class and the warmage is light on the "mage" (the player usually forgets she has spells, but when he doesn't he does outdamage the rogue).

Rogues are not incredibly damage intensive. Especially if they face undead, constructs, or other non sneak attackable opponents.

If the comparison is "players who forget they have spells", the correct response is not to nerf the competent one, but help the noob.


The rogue handles all the party's diplomatic/talky encounters (unless they are directed directly at one of the other characters and even then they usually turn to her) and is the group leader. Mostly because she's the most extroverted of them IRL.

Such is life. If you don't talk when you have the chance, and avoid it when it's directed to you....you wont be party face.

Does this bother the other players at all, btw?


She does not shine once in a blue moon, but all the time, while the rest of the group is doing their best just to keep up. I"m not sure if they mind, but I would like to give them some attention as well.

First off...if they don't think there is a problem, then tbh, there really isn't a problem. Some players are much more passive than others. If you want to give them some area to shine, consider giving them an area of specialization or a way to enhance their abilities. Perhaps an interesting item, perhaps social contacts.


All my adventures have some way where either talking or sneaking will get you at least some way there because I want them to make up their own plans instead of doing what they think the adventure wants them to do.

Those are certainly not the only ways to bypass things. Consider playing to the strengths of the others as well. A wall in the way the warmage can blast down, for instance.


The rest of the party is:
Swashbuckler
Warmage (so yes, he does take evocation spells only but he also hoards scrolls)
Bard
They are facing enemies appropriate to their level, which was 5 when they got it, 6 now.

So perhaps I should indeed be focussed on making the rest of the party less useless.

That should be a relatively balanced party. No tier 1s, no ridiculously sucky classes. Class isn't really a problem here, and a +10 skill item is not a significant balance changer. Destroying it or taking it will not solve the problem, and it'll be annoying for the player.


Tell me I'm hating on the rogue class again, I double dare you. :smalltongue: Rogue is my personal favourite class since I care nothing for tier lists. In fact I almost exclusively play rogue. The problem here is not with the rogue class but with the I Win button I handed this particular rogue (admittedly caused by my not knowing how to handle hide rules).
Also, I would LOVE a wizard/sorcerer in the party that knows his stuff.
Please don't take your personal frustrations with your DMs out on me :smallsmile:

It's not an I win button. At all. It's ridiculously easy for a guard to be situated in a way that he can't be stealthed past. Hide is not invisibility.

Even if she is hiding, a low roll from her, and a high roll from a generic guard with okish spot is going to find her. If you have multiple guards around, the odds of this increase.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-11, 11:29 AM
....:amused:

I would LOVE to see a D&D/LoTR campaign journal but with highly optimized characters and not clones from the books ^_^

Teleport Item.

The campaign ends one standard action later.

Ormagoden
2010-01-11, 11:38 AM
ummm...

Wow, some of these suggestions are just BAD. DM fiat screwing the player over?! Come on! think people.

Having a +10 hide isn't game breaking.
The character still has to move slowly or take negatives.
Light and lack of cover are issues as are creatures with extraordinary senses. Even an animal with scent can detect the character easily.

There are TONS of counters for a sneaky character.
(just don't go giving an npc a +10 to spot ring to counter the rogue eh!)

There is also another solution.
If you REALLY hate the ring that much have someone who knew or worked with the previous assassin come calling...not to kill but just to get that magic ring his old associate had. After all +10 to hide is pretty nice what lucky character or NPC wouldn't want it?

A 6th level rogue with maxed out ranks in sleight of hand and 5 ranks in bluff gets a +11 to the roll that's a little more than 50/50 odds they can grab it right off of you. Add another +3 if they have skill focus (sleight of hand) and all they need to do is roll a 6 or higher. They can still be spotted while successful but they'll have the ring in their hand :D

Barring that I'm sure the halfling girl doesn't sleep in the room with all the hairy men making it rather easy for someone to sneak in the window/front door while she's asleep. It's not like parties post guards when they are at the inn.

dsmiles
2010-01-11, 11:44 AM
I still think you should give everyone else something of equivalent value. Not monetary value, but value to their character archetype.

Optimystik
2010-01-11, 11:59 AM
I second the advice of others before me - use mundane counters to Hide, which any nobleman or other mark could be reasonably expected to employ. Guard dogs/well-lit corridors/multiple guards. That solves both your problems, because now your other players have to help her out (i.e. the Bard needs to cover her with darkness, The warmage needs to Gust of Wind the lanterns out, the swashbuckler has to create a diversion with the guards so she can sneak by, etc.) Everyone plays, everyone wins.

If the macguffin is in a wizard's hands, you can get even more tricky, such as dire bats (blindsense) or monstrous spiders (tremorsense.)


Plus, this is Sauron - he gets continuously called an eye of all things. Of course he has permanent True Seeing and a Spot check over seventy at the least. You'd need some pretty epic Hide to get past him in Mordor airspace.

Or you could just walk into Mordor. Sauron's Spot check sucks. :smalltongue:

Heliomance
2010-01-11, 01:34 PM
Overall possibilities:

- If the ring has a crystal that houses the power: A critical melee breaks the crystal, along with the rogues hand. (in combination with any "sight" that does not need light), The ring is still worth a good amount due to the craftsmanship.

- The ring was a fire and forget construct created for the assassin. It will run out of juice after x weeks. (or gets slowly reduced to a more manageable amount)

- Something (a macguffin) uses some form of devour magic.

- The rogue finds herself to be less and less capable of teamwork, living only for the "mission" (what your players are supposed to do). Have her start making saving throws for actions that would help her comrades, increasing difficulties every in-game day or so. (This includes sharing loot, taking sidequests). If she doesn't take of the ring the effect worsens, perhaps making it necessary for her comrades to take the ring of her.

- There's a lot of other possibilities too.

If done without warning the player in advance and asking if she's okay with it, every single one of those come under the heading of "**** moves".

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-11, 01:37 PM
Or you could just walk into Mordor. Sauron's Spot check sucks. :smalltongue:

To be fair, he was blinded by a catapult launched halfling.

Dragero
2010-01-11, 04:12 PM
Teleport Item.

The campaign ends one standard action later.

Oh snap!

Back on topic:

I think making it plot specific (using my lich? If so name him larry. Larry the lich!) would be a great idea.

Jayabalard
2010-01-11, 04:37 PM
These aren't really in line with D&D items at all, and they may not be appropriate to your group, but here are a few thoughts:

Have the ring also carry a mild curse of some sort that has a chance to kick in any time it's used; nothing too deadly, and have it discovered when it's not going to get the rogue killed. It should remain a nice item to have, and well worth the risk.
Have the ring need to be recharged in some way: the effectiveness of the ring tapers off over time or even stops working at all until some condition is met. The condition should be attainable now (but perhaps difficult) and be easy to do when the party has leveled up. Keep in mind that it was an assassin's ring, and he might be willing to do things to recharge his ring that this rogue might not be willing to do.
Perhaps the ring had been stolen by the assassin from someone else, preferably someone who will hunt the rogue down and demand it back; if done right this person might wind up becoming a recurring nemesis.
The item may have been loaned, or sold on a half now, half later basis to the assassin by someone or something, who's going to want their payment, or the rogue's head on a platter. Again, this one is probably more adventure hook/roleplay fodder than it is any sort of real penalty.


Unless you think your player would be ok with it, I highly advise against anything like destroying, stealing, or "ruining" the item altogether.


If done without warning the player in advance and asking if she's okay with it, every single one of those come under the heading of "**** moves".I dunno, the "run out of juice" one seems pretty reasonable, certainly nothing like most of the rest of the stuff on that list.

Calmar
2010-01-11, 05:02 PM
A ring that let's a halfling disappear... One might wonder if a group of undead bloodhounds able to detect it is already out to reclaim that thing for their master. :smallwink:

In any case I'd make the ring part of a greater context. Simply making it useless by giving every foe and every random dude the means to detect a well-hidden character is boring and likely very frustrating for the player. :smallsmile:

Volos
2010-01-11, 06:17 PM
Glitterdust

Tyndmyr
2010-01-11, 06:24 PM
Or you could just walk into Mordor. Sauron's Spot check sucks. :smalltongue:

One does not simply walk into Mordor....

This is seriously begging for a DM of the Rings link.


On a more serious note, Im glad the OP doesn't have to deal w full casters. If a rogue able to hide is a problem, imagine a wizard.

Jayabalard
2010-01-12, 02:01 PM
One does not simply walk into Mordor....um... Yes you do. You totally do.

Dragero
2010-01-12, 04:19 PM
One does not simply walk into Mordor....
.

Thats true. You CRAWL into mordor!