how many spells do cleric know?

[taltamir]

clerics know every cleric spell ever published by WOTC... ignoring for a second the banning of spells due to alignment (clerics cannot cast opposite alignment spells; A chaotic good cleric cannot cast spells with the [lawful] or [evil] descriptors) and spells granted by domains, how many spells does a cleric know? Has anyone ever bothered counting the full amount of unique cleric spells ever published by WOTC?

Oh, and the Spell domain deserves a special note, since it gives clerics access to "anyspell"... (although, so does a miracle, in one of its no XP cost options is to duplicate any level 8 or below cleric spell or any level 7 or below spell regardless of source)

[Boci]

Someone tried to post a list on the WoTC forumes. Unfortunatly despite only mentioning the spells and their level, he ran out of characters.

[Foryn Gilnith]

926 (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndLive/FindSpell.php), if this site does not lie to me. 14210 characters.

[taltamir]

very nice...
Although, you must assume they have missed at least some sources...

I went ahead and used it to count how many mind affecting spells there are (to know how many spells you become immune to with 1 measly level 1 spell)
250 spells, 3433 characters.

for druids:
709 spells, 10177 characters.

If you count the clerics ability to emulate all spells of up to level 7 though the list is truely terrifying... (a cleric with a spell domain can use lesser anyspell, anyspell, and greater anyspell to emulate spells using only 1 or 2 spell slots higher then their regular level, so you don't lose much)...

[Foryn Gilnith]

They overlooked more than 13 books. One would assume that this was because said books contained no spells. However, I notice a distinct absence of Exemplars of Evil...

[Signmaker]

This leads to the question: How many spells can archivists know? :smalltongue:

[Dixieboy]

This leads to the question: How many spells can archivists know? :smalltongue:

*insert over 9000! joke*

Doesn't this make the cleric more versatile than the wizard though?
I mean, at least he has to track his spells down.

[taltamir]

*insert over 9000! joke*

Doesn't this make the cleric more versatile than the wizard though?
I mean, at least he has to track his spells down.

Yes, the cleric has always been a lot more versatile then the wizard... the wizard, however, gets more powerful spells; of which it can still know as many as it is willing to spend GP learning. so the two kinda balance out. (maybe balance is not exactly the right word for the greatest most powerful classes).

PS. what is an archivist, which book is it from?

[FishAreWet]

This leads to the question: How many spells can archivists know? :smalltongue:

Depends, what's in his spellbook?

[Dixieboy]

PS. what is an archivist, which book is it from?

A dude who run around collecting secret lore, casts spell from a spellbook (And can, through exploitation of the rules, get every single spell ever), and is from heroes of horror.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Sourcebooks not included in http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndLive/FindSpell.php

City of Stormreach (Cloak of Khyber on page 59, Animate Infectious Zombie on page 144. Neither are cleric spells.)
Dragonlance Campaign Setting (Several spells, about 5 cleric spells. Some spells may have been reprinted in Spell Compendium)
Dragonmarked (Whole bunch of spells, 9 cleric spells)
Exemplars of Evil (Several spells, 4 cleric spells)
Fiendish Codex 2 (Whole bunch of spells, 18 cleric spells)
Five Nations (pages 154-155 have 2 cleric spells)
Monster Compendium - Monsters of Faerun (p28, p30, and p31 have arcane monster creation spells)
Secrets of Sarlona (several spells, 4 cleric spells)

So total is about 968 cleric spells.

[Gnaeus]

PS. what is an archivist, which book is it from?

Archivists are from heroes of horror.

They are prepared book casters, like a wizard, but their potential spells list includes all divine spells from any source, so Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Divine Bard, Adept, all the domains. Any divine spell they can find a scroll of, they can scribe into their prayer book. Like wizards, they get 2 free spells per level into their books, taken from the cleric lists.

[taltamir]

So total is about 968 cleric spells.

plus any 7th or lower spell from another class via miracle; and the anyspells.


Archivists are from heroes of horror.

They are prepared book casters, like a wizard, but their potential spells list includes all divine spells from any source, so Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Divine Bard, Adept, all the domains. Any divine spell they can find a scroll of, they can scribe into their prayer book. Like wizards, they get 2 free spells per level into their books, taken from the cleric lists.

wow... that sounds unbelievable... I am going to guess that their "sacrifice" is that they lose out of the familiar? I will go verify it by looking them up now.
EDIT: ok i missed the part that it is any DIVINE spell... I see that now. still they are like Cleric++

[Foryn Gilnith]

Their sacrifice is that they get the DM mad at the player when the player asks for too many out-of-cleric-list scrolls.

Archivist gets 1908 spells, not counting domains or the sourcebooks that the spell search lacks.

Also, the glass is 100.0000000000% empty, like most matter in the universe.

[FishAreWet]

Except Archivists need to scribe it all in a spellbook.

Clerics just pray one morning.

[Temotei]

Except Archivists need to scribe it all in a spellbook.

Clerics just pray one morning.

"Please Kord! Grant me the power to commune with you even though you could easily commune with me right now because I'm contacting you and I know you're listening! Jerk."

[Draz74]

EDIT: ok i missed the part that it is any DIVINE spell... I see that now. still they are like Cleric++

Cleric vs. Archivist is generally considered pretty equal. The Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) doesn't get Domain powers. He's slightly less built for tanking, with d6 hit dice, Poor BAB, and no heavy armor or shield proficiency. And he has to use various PrC dips if he wants to Turn Undead. On the other hand, besides his ridiculous variety of spells he can learn, he does have more skill points than the Cleric and a few minor-but-useful class features.

[Boci]

a few minor-but-useful class features.

Some of them are not that minor. Auto daze as a move equivilant action? yes please.

[taltamir]

"Please Kord! Grant me the power to commune with you even though you could easily commune with me right now because I'm contacting you and I know you're listening! Jerk."

lollery


Cleric vs. Archivist is generally considered pretty equal. The Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) doesn't get Domain powers. He's slightly less built for tanking, with d6 hit dice, Poor BAB, and no heavy armor or shield proficiency. And he has to use various PrC dips if he wants to Turn Undead. On the other hand, besides his ridiculous variety of spells he can learn, he does have more skill points than the Cleric and a few minor-but-useful class features.

turning is only useful for DMM, which is pretty gosh darn useful actually. (also, nightsticks)

[Thurbane]

I usually houerule that Clerics and Druids get PHB spells, plus 2 spell of their choice from any other source at each spell level (2x0, 2x1, 2x2, 2x3, 2x4 etc.) added to their list.

Yes yes, I know, I'm a horrible person and I should have my DMs license revoked... :smallwink:

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The disadvantage for Archivists in actual play(though not in TO) is finding the spells. While you can grab stuff off the Adept, Paladin, Ranger, Druid, and Cleric lists easily enough(for most campaigns), things like the Healer, non-core domains(for stuff like Darkbolt and Anyspell), and Spirit Shaman may be considerably harder to track down. The other players may not lik running a miniquest every couple levels just so you can get that one must-have spell. And shenanigans like Divine Bard and ACF Favored Soul will get you laughed ut of most groups. There's a reason I suggest Archervist instead of relying on the more obscure lists.

[Draz74]

turning is only useful for DMM

Not true. The basic Turn Undead is pretty worthless, yes. But there are nice Divine feats out there besides DMM -- many of the CChamp "____ Devotion" feats, for example.

But yeah, even if DMM were the only good use, that would still give Clerics a boost against Archivists in the world of optimization.

[taltamir]

The disadvantage for Archivists in actual play(though not in TO) is finding the spells. While you can grab stuff off the Adept, Paladin, Ranger, Druid, and Cleric lists easily enough(for most campaigns), things like the Healer, non-core domains(for stuff like Darkbolt and Anyspell), and Spirit Shaman may be considerably harder to track down. The other players may not lik running a miniquest every couple levels just so you can get that one must-have spell. And shenanigans like Divine Bard and ACF Favored Soul will get you laughed ut of most groups. There's a reason I suggest Archervist instead of relying on the more obscure lists.

very true, I guess it is more of a "awesome for NPCs" things like immortality or lichdom... It makes sense in some ways, but it makes no sense if you are an adventurer playing standard DnD and gaining levels quickly enough that immortality doesn't matter, but LA does because of XP penalty.

unless you do things like planer binding genies to wish for scrolls.
typically DMs nerf planer binding by requiring that you actually pay the creature summoned or actually cast a mind control spell... so you would have to pay them for the scroll, but still it would not require a quest... if that use of planer binding was allowed.


Not true. The basic Turn Undead is pretty worthless, yes. But there are nice Divine feats out there besides DMM -- many of the CChamp "____ Devotion" feats, for example.

But yeah, even if DMM were the only good use, that would still give Clerics a boost against Archivists in the world of optimization.

heh, ok... but its still not useful for actually turning undead. only to fuel better abilities.

[Baron Malkar]

link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a)

Bone Talisman
Necromancy
Level: Druid 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Bone touched
Duration: 10 minutes/level or until discharged
Saving Throw: None (object)
Spell Resistance: No (object)

You channel divine power and life energy into a bone from an animal or humanoid, giving it limited power against undead. Once cast, it may be used for two purposes (decided at the time of casting).

Bone of Turning: You or another druid may present the bone in the manner of a holy symbol and use it to turn undead. The effective turning level is equal to your caster level. All normal turning effects apply. For example, if your turning level is twice the Hit Dice of the turned undead, they are destroyed instead of turned. After one turn attempt, the bone talisman loses its power (but you can cast the spell on it again).

Bone Weapon: The bone is treated as a weapon that deals +1d6 damage to undead creatures, similar to but weaker than an undead bane effect. The bone is treated as a simple weapon appropriate to its shape, such as dagger or dart (small and sharp), club (if large and blunt), or spear (if small and sharp and fastened to a haft) and deals normal damage for its type. The spell does not grant proficiency in the weapon. The spell is not discharged when the weapon hits and this aspect of the spell lasts until the full duration (10 minutes/level) expires.

The spell has no effect if you cast it on a bone taken from an undead creature. The bone must be at least 8 inches long and may be straight or curved; normally bones from the arm, leg, or ribs are used. You may carve, drill, or otherwise shape the bone before or after the spell is cast; the spell functions as long as the bone remains bone (not turned to wood or metal, for example).

Druids get Everything.:smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

Druids get Everything.:smallbiggrin:

Which by extension means that Archivists get everything. :smallwink:

[taltamir]

link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a)

Druids get Everything.:smallbiggrin:

nice... but turning itself is horribly sub par. only reason anyone cares about it is because you can burn turn attempts using various feats and class abilities (PrC?) to do something worthwhile...
what they need is some feat or PrC that grants turning ability so that they may take feats that feed off of it, like DMM, and then abuse nightsticks on it.

or are you saying being able to cast this spell qualifies for DMM?
actually, that would be awesomely hilarious.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

nice... but turning itself is horribly sub par. only reason anyone cares about it is because you can burn turn attempts using various feats and class abilities (PrC?) to do something worthwhile...
what they need is some feat or PrC that grants turning ability so that they may take feats that feed off of it, like DMM, and then abuse nightsticks on it.

or are you saying being able to cast this spell qualifies for DMM?
actually, that would be awesomely hilarious.Possibly, but if not, there are a few PrCs that grant Turning. Contemplative does, IIRC, as does Prestige Paladin(which has a bunch of other advantages like Serenity and Battle Blessing).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Possibly, but if not, there are a few PrCs that grant Turning. Contemplative does, IIRC, as does Prestige Paladin(which has a bunch of other advantages like Serenity and Battle Blessing).

Contemplative doesn't, and Prestige Paladin has turning as a prerequisite. The only viable option is Sacred Exorcist, which means only the non-evil ones will get it. You could use Master of Radiance, but the first level misses out on spellcasting so you'd do just as well to dip a level in (Cloistered) Cleric for turning. Or just cast Bone Talisman eight times and rub each one with Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness).

An Archivist gets Scribe Scroll, so he only has to find someone to contribute the spell itself to create a scroll of a given spell that he wishes to learn. Leadership with a Warlock 12+ can accomplish that, so from level 14+ an Archivist should expect to be able to get any TO spells that haven't specifically been banned from the game as long as he can take Leadership and get a cooperative cohort of the desired class. Indeed, he could read the spell and make a spellcraft check to understand/learn it, then cast Secret Page to turn an existing 1st level spell in his prayerbook into that spell. By that process the number of spells you can put into your prayerbook each day is only limited by the number of times you can cast Secret Page, and they all take a single page regardless of level. Additionally, by using Secret Page to create the spell's text you would probably even preserve the unspent scroll, since the spell is not being copied from it in any conventional way.

[Lysander]

There's no limit to how many they can know, but there's evidence that they have to actually know of the spell to cast them. Some spells can be considered unusual, and in that case the cleric has to actually learn the prayer to use it.

This links to a wizards article about a spellbook of divine spells that characters can learn:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20041117a

Basically, I'd assume that clerics can only cast stuff in the srd at first. Then as travel to new temples and meet friendly clerics they can pick up new spells here and there without having to pay any costs. Deciphering a lost prayer in an ancient text might require knowledge religion, spellcraft, or decipher script checks.

[bosssmiley]

clerics know every cleric spell ever published by WOTC...

Unless your DM (in his role as the cleric's god) says otherwise. :smallwink:

[Gnaeus]

The disadvantage for Archivists in actual play(though not in TO) is finding the spells. While you can grab stuff off the Adept, Paladin, Ranger, Druid, and Cleric lists easily enough(for most campaigns), things like the Healer, non-core domains(for stuff like Darkbolt and Anyspell), and Spirit Shaman may be considerably harder to track down. The other players may not lik running a miniquest every couple levels just so you can get that one must-have spell. And shenanigans like Divine Bard and ACF Favored Soul will get you laughed ut of most groups. There's a reason I suggest Archervist instead of relying on the more obscure lists.

I agree. I suspect that in actual play archivists vary between strong tier 1 and bottom of tier 2/top of tier 3. In Magic Mart full of Divine Bard scrolls world they are really tough. In time and money constrained world where they have to quest for lots of scrolls and can't use secret page they might even fall behind the Favored Soul.

I find that in my low-mid level play, the real advantage for Archivist and its half brother the Chameleon isn't getting the unique spells on their list (although there are some gems worth picking up) it is in learning spells from the Paladin, Ranger and Adept lists that are below the spell levels normally cast at. Like Resist Energy, Lesser Restoration, Remove Paralysis, and Primal Hunter as level 1 spells, instead of level 2 as a Cleric or Druid would cast them.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

An Archivist gets Scribe Scroll, so he only has to find someone to contribute the spell itself to create a scroll of a given spell that he wishes to learn. Leadership with a Warlock 12+ can accomplish that, so from level 14+ an Archivist should expect to be able to get any TO spells that haven't specifically been banned from the game as long as he can take Leadership and get a cooperative cohort of the desired class. Indeed, he could read the spell and make a spellcraft check to understand/learn it, then cast Secret Page to turn an existing 1st level spell in his prayerbook into that spell. By that process the number of spells you can put into your prayerbook each day is only limited by the number of times you can cast Secret Page, and they all take a single page regardless of level. Additionally, by using Secret Page to create the spell's text you would probably even preserve the unspent scroll, since the spell is not being copied from it in any conventional way.I wasn't talking about TO, but PO. How often have you had a DM that allowed Leadership or Secret Page shenanigans? Yes, the class is incredibly broken TO. PO, it's merely better than a Cleric.

Which still doesn't say much for it's balance.

[Gnaeus]

Well, unless Divine Bard is in play, Secret Page isn't much of an issue. Is there a domain that offers it?

I really don't think that you can categorically call Archivist better than Cleric. It is really dependent on time, money, and spell availability. An Archivist in WLD, for example, would be clearly weaker than a Favored Soul, and far below a cleric.

[Aquillion]

I wasn't talking about TO, but PO. How often have you had a DM that allowed Leadership or Secret Page shenanigans? Yes, the class is incredibly broken TO. PO, it's merely better than a Cleric.I wouldn't say that.

The Archivist is in an odd place balance-wise. If the DM is insanely strict and prevents you from ever getting your hands on non-cleric spells at all, obviously they're weaker than a Cleric. That's stupid, yeah, since it defeats the purpose of the class, but it's just an example -- the point being, there's at least some balance-point in terms of allowed spells where the Archivist meets the Cleric, roughly.

Also, if you go deep into TO, I'd say the cleric pulls ahead again, just because DMM is so abusable.

[taltamir]

i wouldn't risk using secret page for it, it can be dispelled. if you want you can get a blessed book which uses secret page but as a permanent enchantment.

Excellent observation that archivist has scribe scroll, and by cooperative crafting rules that means he just needs to pay a cleric / bard / whatever to cast the spell once for crafting purposes (craft a scroll, using his feat).
But I am not sure how many DMs will let that fly.

[Eldariel]

Also, if you go deep into TO, I'd say the cleric pulls ahead again, just because DMM is so abusable.

It's worth noting that Cleric's domains also provide him with the feats necessary to truly abuse DMM; I often had issues with Archivist builds running out of feats when trying to do anything interesting as they have no bonus feat sources, really (well, this side of Dark Chaos anyways...though the Shuffle is actually quite appropriate for Archivists). One-level Cleric dip fixes that but that's a caster level you just gave up.

[taltamir]

notice that cindy uses DMM persist :)
DMM, even for wizards :)

[Eldariel]

notice that cindy uses DMM persist :)
DMM, even for wizards :)

Wizards are sharply limited though, since DMM only works on divine spells. There ARE few ways to cast divine spells as a Wizard, but that's pretty fringe... That said, I don't see why Cindy would need DMM since she's an Incantatrix and has Metamagic Effect to Persist Int+3 (= ~20) spells every day with just Spellcraft check. If that isn't enough, of course, she can also persist another such bunch with Cooperative Metamagic and some trickery.

[taltamir]

Wizards are sharply limited though, since DMM only works on divine spells. There ARE few ways to cast divine spells as a Wizard, but that's pretty fringe... That said, I don't see why Cindy would need DMM since she's an Incantatrix and has Metamagic Effect to Persist Int+3 (= ~20) spells every day with just Spellcraft check. If that isn't enough, of course, she can also persist another such bunch with Cooperative Metamagic and some trickery.

you know... I think she does it via cooperative magic. I am not entirely sure how half the abilities she has even work.

[Aquillion]

you know... I think she does it via cooperative magic. I am not entirely sure how half the abilities she has even work.
I don't recall Cindy using DMM (unless there was a new version of her I missed.) I think mostly she relied on Arcane Thesis, actually.