Guillotine damage and other difficulties

[Brendan]

So as a general rule, anyone whose head is sliced by a guillotine or executioner dies. Also, many people who get put into guillotines are fairly high level. How then would a high level adventurer get killed or even sufficiently inconvenienced by a guillotine? at most it's a 1d12 blade with 1d6 falling damage. using average rolls a fighter with 10 con at FIRST level would still be conscious. Would it be a coup de grace? a save could make someone get their head chopped off and live. It doesn't make sense to me. having one's head chopped off should be an autokill. Maybe it is a vorpal blade and it auto crits because the person cannot move?

[expirement10K14]

There is rules for this in BoVD. I believe guillotine is either auto-kill or coup de grace, depending on th skill check result.

[Magnor Criol]

Are you speaking about the execution device guillotine? The one where people where forced down on their knees, their necks placed on a indentation in the wood, and the blade dropped down onto their unprotected, un-dodging necks?

Sounds like an absolute coup de grace to me.

That said, sometime the blade DIDN'T kill you outright; if the person to be executed was particularly disliked, sometimes a dull blade was used, and it essentially had to beat its way through your neck over several thwumps.

[Raging Gene Ray]

It doesn't make sense to me. having one's head chopped off should be an autokill.

It is. There are times when common sense overrides RAW. No, a blade shouldn't have to have a +5 equivalent bonus to cut off someone's head. It just has to overcome the hardness of their spinal cord.

Of course...now every PC will be making called shots to the neck. That's only a -4 penalty to hit.

[Dixieboy]

That said, sometime the blade DIDN'T kill you outright; if the person to be executed was particularly disliked, sometimes a dull blade was used, and it essentially had to beat its way through your neck over several thwumps.

Deeply ironic considering that one of the reasons it was used was the belief that it was somehow humane.

Though I guess it's still better than those devices that beheaded you using blunt force.

[Xefas]

So as a general rule, anyone whose head is sliced by a guillotine or executioner dies. Also, many people who get put into guillotines are fairly high level. How then would a high level adventurer get killed or even sufficiently inconvenienced by a guillotine? at most it's a 1d12 blade with 1d6 falling damage. using average rolls a fighter with 10 con at FIRST level would still be conscious. Would it be a coup de grace? a save could make someone get their head chopped off and live. It doesn't make sense to me. having one's head chopped off should be an autokill. Maybe it is a vorpal blade and it auto crits because the person cannot move?

If a guillotine blade has the stats of say, a Greataxe, it deals 1d12 damage with a x3 crit multiplier.

If the victim is helpless, it deals 36 damage and forces a DC 46 Fortitude save or die.

There are only three ways a person is going to survive that Fort save.
1) They are heavily effected by magic. Whether by a spell or magic item, its magic, so there you go. Magic. Whatever.

2) They are incredibly heroic individuals. Level 6 is near-inhuman. Level 10 is crazy superhero. Level 20 is godlike.

A level 20 (near God-power) Barbarian (tough guy) with say 18 Constitution (maximum possible for a human being) and Great Fortitude (a weak feat that he invested specifically so he could be tough) still only has a bonus of +19. Meaning he still needs a natural 20 to make it. Which brings me to...

3) He rolled a natural 20 on the Fort save. That means something crazy happened. The universe collaborated with them to give them a second chance. The guillotine blade got stuck only part way down the shaft, and only cut a little into the victim's neck, and they're hurt but alive. The stock holding their head was loose, and they shook free at the last moment. Etc.

In this case, its fate conspiring for heroic deeds. If you don't like that, then maybe critical success should be amended with a house rule.

[Tavar]

Why can it be at most a 1d12?

And, yeah, it's a CdG. Possibly with a high effective Str score.

[Boci]

In this case, its fate conspiring for heroic deeds. If you don't like that, they maybe critical success should be amended with a house rule.

I'm sure you didn't forget it but I think it is worth highlighting that a nat 20 only works if they have 37 or more HP. And as Tavar said, it should have a strength bonus.

[Rainbownaga]

Personally, I disagree with the auto-kill; Coup de grace definitely, but high level barbarians and fighters should be able to just flex their necks and have a chance of it just grazing them. Mages get powers to rewrite the universe, fighters are just supremely tough.

Of course, if you're doing d12 damage with autocrit (and probably at least a x3 modifier) the chance of them surviving is virtually zero.


Edit: Ninja'd. Took way too long to write that


If a guillotine blade has the stats of say, a Greataxe, it deals 1d12 damage with a x3 crit multiplier.

If the victim is helpless, it deals 36 damage and forces a DC 46 Fortitude save or die.

Why did you maximize the damage?

[Cespenar]

Heh, someone should use Mind over Body to make that Fort save.

"Don't think about the guillotine, don't think about the guillotine, don't think about the guillotine!"

[Dixieboy]

Heh, someone should use Mind over Body to make that Fort save.

"Don't think about the guillotine, don't think about the guillotine, don't think about the guillotine!"

Better:
Autohypnosis.

"*insert your own "It's just a fleshwound" joke*"

[Mystic Muse]

Iron heart surge :smalltongue:

[Vaynor]

Deeply ironic considering that one of the reasons it was used was the belief that it was somehow humane.

Though I guess it's still better than those devices that beheaded you using blunt force.

Compared to other methods of the day the guillotine was incredibly humane. I'd rather die instantaneously than be drawn and quartered. Hell, even being hung was considered a fairly humane way to die, death was almost instantaneous, as the neck would snap when you were dropped.

[Dixieboy]

Compared to other methods of the day the guillotine was incredibly humane. I'd rather die instantaneously than be drawn and quartered. Hell, even being hung was considered a fairly humane way to die, death was almost instantaneous, as the neck would snap when you were dropped.

I'm talking about blunting the thing to cause extra pain.

[Tavar]

It was invented to be a more humane way to kill, but inventions can easily be taken in ways that their inventors didn't intend. Just ask Eli Whitney.

Also, Hanging may or may not have been humane. After all, the neck didn't always break, and if it didn't it could take minutes, or even longer. In fact, I seem to remember some execution which involved hanging the subjects, then while they were still alive, taking them down, drawing and quartering, and then burning the bodies.

[Foryn Gilnith]

There is rules for this in BoVD. I believe guillotine is either auto-kill or coup de grace, depending on th skill check result.

This. As for the guillotine being potentially too lethal to Epic heroes, the Epic warrior-types should have used those massive muscles to just escape, instead of trying to face off against a guillotine.

[Dixieboy]

It was invented to be a more humane way to kill, but inventions can easily be taken in ways that their inventors didn't intend. Just ask Eli Whitney.

I think that considering what some (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Maiden_dsc05364.jpg)
of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hanging_of_William_Kidd.jpg) it's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Halifaxengine.jpg) contemporaries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Axt_zum_spalten1.jpg) were (http://www.crystalinks.com/wagonwheel.jpg), that argument makes little sense.

Edit: Guillotin did not invent the thing :smallredface:

[Slayn82]

It was invented to be a more humane way to kill, but inventions can easily be taken in ways that their inventors didn't intend.

And in the Guillotine's case, it was almost quite literally. French Revolution beheaded someone with the same surname, making a few historians think for some time that he had been executed by it.

He never liked that people called it with his name, and even changed his surname because of that.

[Dixieboy]

And in the Guillotine's case, it was almost quite literally. French Revolution beheaded someone with the same surname, making a few historians think for some time that he had been executed by it.
Unlikely, considering that he was still active several years afterwards. :smallredface:

[Tavar]

I think that considering what some (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Maiden_dsc05364.jpg)
of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hanging_of_William_Kidd.jpg) it's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Halifaxengine.jpg) contemporaries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Axt_zum_spalten1.jpg) were, that argument makes little sense.


Huh? Are you saying that those are more humane methods? Otherwise, I can't see how those prove your point in the slightest.

[Vaynor]

It was invented to be a more humane way to kill, but inventions can easily be taken in ways that their inventors didn't intend. Just ask Eli Whitney.

Also, Hanging may or may not have been humane. After all, the neck didn't always break, and if it didn't it could take minutes, or even longer. In fact, I seem to remember some execution which involved hanging the subjects, then while they were still alive, taking them down, drawing and quartering, and then burning the bodies.

Well I was referring to a more idealized hanging than the actual practice itself, in a perfect world it would be a fairly humane way to die, but not everything always goes according to plan.

[Dixieboy]

Huh? Are you saying that those are more humane methods? Otherwise, I can't see how those prove your point in the slightest.
How would them being more humane prove my point?
Like, at all?

That seems awfully counter-productive in fact.

[Tavar]

Well, for hanging it depends whether you're using a short drop or a longer one. Short drops killed by strangulation, longer ones have a better chance of breaking the neck.

Edit: ah, didn't see what you were arguing. Using dulled blades was at least as cruel as using axes, though, as both had the potential to need multiple attempts.

[Thurbane]

If I was running my own rules (assuming 3.5) I would treat a blow from the guillotine as coup-de-grace from a 3d6/x4 slashing weapon.

[Dixieboy]

If I was running my own rules (assuming 3.5) I would treat a blow from the guillotine as coup-de-grace from a 3d6/x4 slashing weapon.

So, if I say... stole the blade, I would have quite possibly the best weapon ever?

[Foryn Gilnith]

If you threw it down from a proper height, against a prone target, maybe.

Also, nonproficiency penalties.

[Dixieboy]

If you threw it down from a proper height, against a prone target, maybe.

This gives so many new uses for the some of the cityscape feats.

[Tavar]

Nope. It means he's using a larger than normal weapon, so you probably couldn't wield it. Also, the CdG part assumes that the person is strapped in and unable to move. Good luck using that in a fight.

[Dixieboy]

Nope. It means he's using a larger than normal weapon, so you probably couldn't wield it. Also, the CdG part assumes that the person is strapped in and unable to move. Good luck using that in a fight.
Screw coup de grace, that thing has more damage than a greatsword and the biggest crit multiplier possible. (As far as I can remember)

[Boci]

So, if I say... stole the blade, I would have quite possibly the best weapon ever?

Doubt you would be able to wield it as anything aside an improvised weapon. Two handed, 1d10, x2/20.

[Thurbane]

So, if I say... stole the blade, I would have quite possibly the best weapon ever?
What you'd essentially have is a huge scythe without a handle.

[Tavar]

According to the damage charts, it's a huge Scythe. Again, good luck wielding that thing.

[Dixieboy]

What you'd essentially have is a huge scythe without a handle.
I believe a scythe blade is actually about the same size as a guillotine blade, perhaps even bigger. [/random musing]

[Allanimal]

If a guillotine blade has the stats of say, a Greataxe, it deals 1d12 damage with a x3 crit multiplier.

If the victim is helpless, it deals 36 damage and forces a DC 46 Fortitude save or die.


Tangential Rules Question (assuming 3.5):
Can one power attack when delivering a coup de grace?
That would up the damage dramatically. But is it legal in RAW?

[Tavar]

I'm not an expert, but I think so. A CdG is a melee attack, and you can use PA with Melee attacks.

[Foryn Gilnith]

It's an improvised weapon regardless. So even if you got the 3d6/x4 damage, you'd still basically be power attacking for 4 with a 1.375x modifier to the damage. Maybe a decent tradeoff...

But, since the DM in question is not averse to homebrewing, he is unlikely to be averse to slapping this stupidity in the recycle bin.

[Thurbane]

I believe a scythe blade is actually about the same size as a guillotine blade, perhaps even bigger. [/random musing]
True - I was speaking more from a stats viewpoint than from a relative shape/weight viewpoint.

...according to this (http://inventors.about.com/od/gstartinventions/a/Guillotine.htm), some guillotine blades weighed up to 88.2 lbs.

[Crow]

Questions like this are why there is a DM. Seriously, this is just ridiculous.

If you absolutely must apply some mechanic to it, just call it a coup-de-grace with whatever damage and critical multiplier you think is appropriate. If the adventurer makes the fort save, just say it didn't get through his spine or something.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Seriously, this is just ridiculous.

It's on these forums. There's a fair amount of ambient ridiculity it probably absorbed from the TO threads.

[Androgeus]

It's on these forums. There's a fair amount of ambient ridiculity it probably absorbed from the TO threads.

If it has stats you can use it as a weapon?

[Thurbane]

Between Drunken Master (Superior Improvised Weapon) and Hulking Hurler (Really Throw Anything), you can almost use any item as a weapon in 3.5 anyway...

[Dixieboy]

If it has stats you can use it as a weapon?Pretty much.

Though I guess we shouldn't get too much into the theological implications of using Thor as a hammer.

*badum pish*

Thank you, thank you I'm here all week.