Prestige Spells/Feats: A crazy idea?

[Realms of Chaos]

One thing that I`ve notice about many (though not all) spellcaster PrCs is that they seem somewhat unnecessary. Magic is the ability to do more or less whatever you want so I must ask what PrCs can add to this.

The list of what they do add, as it turns out, isn`t that grand...
1. Better Base Statistics (HD, BAB, Saves, Proficiencies, Skills). Nice bonus but most of these are imitatable by spells.
2. Consistency. Many PrCs grant somewhat powerful but constant abilities, such as damage reduction, fast healing, spell resistance, immunities, or energy resistances. These things could be granted by spells in most cases but are often difficult to keep active 24 hours a day (barring persist spell).
3. Casting Alterations. Many caster PrCs change the way you cast spells. Alienists get pseudonatural summons, mindbenders keep charms working indefinitely, Pale Masters cast animate dead without material components, etc. At the end of the day, however, most of these class features end up looking like bonus feats.
4. Flavor and Prestige. Alienists are masters of inhuman realms, Blood Magi are wizards who use their own lifeblood to attack foes, True Necromancers are (in theory and nothing else) masters of the undead. Of course, with the right spell list, you could replace these PrCs with normal Wizards and Archivists and nobody would be the wiser (at least when used as NPCs).
5. Dual Advancement. One of the few things that is best expressed in PrC form is dual advancement of two spellcasting classes, prime example being the mystic theurge. Unfortunately, this often costs at least 1 class its 9th level spells.
6. Abilities. Of all of the class features that spellcasting PrC could grant, activation-based ones are the most annoying (even if they are sometimes the best). Examples include the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (their primary class feature), The Pale Master (graft touch attacks), and the infamous bloodmagus (awaken the blood/bloodwalk). Although there are certain advantages in class features not being spells (no counterspelling, no dispelling or spell resistance if supernatural), why not just turn them into spells and make a wizard that uses them.

Of course, the problem with that is that doing so takes away from the "prestige" of those abilities. In comes my idea.

I propose the creation of "prestige feats", feats with prerequisites much like PrCs, feats that provide specialized "prestige spells".

I picture a prestige feat having the following qualities:
1. More complex prerequisites than normal feats, taken as early as 6th level to mirror when most PrCs are taken.
2. No player may possess more than one prestige feat.
3. Each prestige feat grants you specific "prestige spells", 2 of each spell level from 1st to 5th and 1 of each spell level from 6th to 9th (14 spells total).
4. In addition, each prestige feat grants 2 abilities, one of which is constant and one of which increases in power with level. An example of the first might be the mindbenders telepathy or an alienist`s ability to summon psuedonatural creatures. Examples of the second may include skill bonuses, energy resistances, damage reduction, fast healing, saving throw bonuses, and so on.
5. Each prestige feat may possess 1-3 other feats requiring it as a prerequisite. Each such feat grants a +1 bonus to caster level with all "prestige spells" and grants another benefit.

I picture prestige spells having the following quality:
1. Prestige spells cannot be scribed onto spellbooks or scrolls. They are preserved only in the casters mind, the result of their own research or revelation.

Notes:
1. The archmage is typically considered one of the more balanced caster PrCs, trading spell slots for class features. prestige spells follow a similar logic. In order to access a prestige spell (a "class feature"), you have to use a spell slot or prepare it for the day. In fact, this gives spontaneous casters an advantage as they need not choose whether to prepare them or not.
2. prestige feats and spells make for more versatility. A beguiler with an illusion-based prestige feat still gains the ability to bypass spell resistance when they reach level 20. A Mystic Theurge with a necromantic prestige feat is a better version of the true necromancer.
3. The great number of spells that a prestige feat grants ensures that the theme is more fully filled out. For example, if the blood magus was turned into a prestige feat, it might grant spells turning water into blood, slowing blood through an enemy to fatigue them, making spikes of congealed blood pierce their way through the enemy, dominate a creature through their blood, create objects from blood, gain major combat benefits (material component is pint of blood, drunk as the spell as cast), bloodwalk (as the class feature), solidifying blood in a target to cause death, or even a low level spell strengthening blood to fight off poison and disease (and there`d still be 5 more spells to make!). In short, prestige feats would allow for a more fully rounded character concept.
4. Prestige feats do cost you a feat but don`t cost you caster levels, a more than fair trade.
5. Even complex concepts (such as a pale master`s transformation or a blood magus` scarification/blood draught) could be translated in this way through the means of other feats using the prestige feat as a prerequisite. This technique probably won`t be able to give out as many bonuses as normal but just enough to warrant taking the feat in place of a random metamagic feat.
6. Lack of supernatural/spell-like class features mean that mages don`t get many methods for dealing with anti-mage tactics, making the game a bit more balanced.

Unfortunately, I currently lack a word processor and don`t work well producing things directly onto the boards (it`s a wonder that I managed to produce even this) so I can`t make a full example (though I encourage others to do so). sorry.:smallredface:

thoughts?

[Soterion]

Yeah, I could see that. The key, I think, is to make sure that the prestige classes are well-balanced in regards to the spells offered. Taking a class in, say, Mystic Theurge really doesn't get you much that taking a level in Wizard wouldn't. So I can see whipping up a few prestige classes for arcane spellcasters that might appeal to players.

*Hedge Wizard: New spells emphasizing on roguish elements (Sneak, Invisibility, Hide)
*Witch: All spells are done using components, and are limited by the components the character can carry (make sure to have low encumbrance to balance character)
*Medium: Medium does not cast spells, but channels spirits of dead wizards and sorcerers to gain arcane power
*Prestidigitator: Character must have at least one level of wizard and one of rogue. Prestidigitator casts no actual magic, but instead presents the illusion that he/she has done so via trickery. Character gains extra feats and skills instead of spells
*Runic Warrior: Character must have at least one level of barbarian and one of wizard. Character gains extra specialization in UMD and bonuses for using magical weapons at a penalty to spellcasting

Just some ideas.

[alchemyprime]

This is similar to what I'm looking at doing to PrCs in Prime20: either make them a Class Path (which Assassin became for Rogue) or make them into a feat tree (I will be experimenting with this once we get to that bridge). Since Prime20 characters have about 3 times the feats of an average character, Prestige Feats seemed like the right idea to do over Prestige classes. Making a list of feats with crazy prereqs for feats that emulate those class features (like an Archamge's Energy Mastery, for example.)

I wanna see how this comes out.

Also, http://writer.bighugelabs.com/ is a free web based word processor that you can save your documents in. Gotta love that classic green on black too!

[Drolyt]

This is similar to what I was thinking, though instead of making special prestige feats I would just make it so that all prestige class abilities (except broken ones) would be feats instead. I'll experiment with your idea a bit though. For Mystic Theurge how about:
Mystic Theurge [Prestige]
You are an Arcane caster, but you are also one of the faithful. You follow a Deity or Philosophy and gain power just like a Divine Caster.
Prerequisites: Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 8 Ranks, Knowledge (Nature) 8 Ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 8 Ranks, Spellcraft 8 Ranks Feats: Arcane Turning/Rebuking (see below), Wise Arcanist (see below) Spellcasting: Must be able to cast 3rd level spells Abilities: 15 Wisdom Special: Must worship a deity or follow a philosophy (subject to DM approval)
Benefits: You gain two domains, just like a Cleric. If you worship a deity it must be domains offered by that deity, otherwise it can be any two domains that are not opposed to each other. You gain all the abilities offered by those domains, but replace Cleric level with Wizard/Sorcerer Level as appropriate. You may also add the spells given by your two domains to your spell list in any Arcane spellcasting class in which you can cast 3rd level spells. You may prepare the spells in any of your normal spell slots (they need not be recorded in your spell book or anything similar, these spells come from divine sources rather than knowledge), and you gain one bonus spell slot of each level which must be used to cast a Domain spell. If you are spontaneous spellcaster you instead add these spells to your spells known.

Arcane Turning/Rebuking [Normal]
Although you are an Arcanist, you combat the Undead just as if you were a Cleric.
Prerequisites: Wise Caster Feat (see below), Arcane Caster Level 3rd, must follow a deity or philosophy (subject to DM approval)
Benefits: You cast turn/rebuke Undead just as a Cleric of your Arcane Spellcasting level.
Special: This feat does not allow you to use Divine Feats.

Wise Arcanist [Normal]
Unlike most Arcane spellcasters you are a member of the faithful, and you cast using wisdom rather than intelligence or force of will.
Prerequisites: Arcane Caster Level 1st
Benefits: You may substitute your Wisdom modifier instead of your normal casting ability for one arcane spellcasting class for purposes of Spell Save DC, Spells/Day, and the highest level spell you can cast. You also add Knowledge (Nature) and Knowledge (Religion) to your class skill list.
Normal: Wizards use Intelligence and Sorcerers use Charisma for Spell Save DC and Spell/Day.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. It's effects do not stack. Each time you choose this feat you may apply it to another arcane spellcasting class.

I'll add more later. There will additional feats that let you cast more spells on the Cleric list.
Advanced Mystic Theurge I [Normal]
Your skill in blending the Arcane and the Divine improves.
Prerequisites: Arcane Caster level 9th, Mystic Theurge Feat
Benefits: You add All 0th, 2nd, and 3rd level Cleric spells to your spell list in the same class you applied the benefits of the Mystic Theurge to. If you prepare spells you may prepare any of these spells normally, and you do not need to record them in a spell book or anything similar. If you cast spells spontaneously you have to learn these spells normally before you can cast them, but you gain one bonus spell known at each level you can currently cast, which must be a Cleric Spell (this benefit is not retroactive, so if you are 9th level when you take this feat it will never grant a bonus 5th level spell known.)
Advanced Mystic Theurge II [Normal]
Your skill in blending the Arcane and the Divine improves even further.
Prerequisites: Arcane Caster Level 12th, Mystic Theurge Feat, Advanced Mystic Theurge I
Benefits: You add All 4th and 5th level Cleric spells to your spell list in the same class you applied the benefits of the Mystic Theurge to. If you prepare spells you may prepare any of these spells normally, and you do not need to record them in a spell book or anything similar. If you cast spells spontaneously you have to learn these spells normally before you can cast them, but you gain one bonus spell known at each level you can currently cast, which must be a Cleric Spell (this benefit is not retroactive, so if you are 12th level when you take this feat it will never grant a bonus 7th level spell known.)
[/i]Advanced Mystic Theurge III [Normal]
Your skill in blending the Arcane and the Divine improves to extraordinary levels.
Prerequisites: Arcane Caster Level 15th, Mystic Theurge Feat, Advanced Mystic Theurge I, Advanced Mystic Theurge II
Benefits: You add All 6th and 7th level Cleric spells to your spell list in the same class you applied the benefits of the Mystic Theurge to. If you prepare spells you may prepare any of these spells normally, and you do not need to record them in a spell book or anything similar. If you cast spells spontaneously you have to learn these spells normally before you can cast them, but you gain one bonus spell known at each level you can currently cast, which must be a Cleric Spell (this benefit is not retroactive, so if you are 15th level when you take this feat it will never grant a bonus 8th or 9th level spell known.)
[/i]Epic Mystic Theurge [Epid]
Your skill in blending the Arcane and the Divine improves to Epic Levels
Prerequisites: Arcane Caster Level 21st, Mystic Theurge Feat, Advanced Mystic Theurge I, Advanced Mystic Theurge II
Benefits: You add All 8th and 9th level Cleric spells to your spell list in the same class you applied the benefits of the Mystic Theurge to. If you prepare spells you may prepare any of these spells normally, and you do not need to record them in a spell book or anything similar. If you cast spells spontaneously you have to learn these spells normally before you can cast them, but you gain one bonus spell known at each level you can currently cast, which must be a Cleric Spell (this benefit is not retroactive, though this should rarely matter)

[urkthegurk]

:smallconfused:Crazy in the sense that wizards don't need to be more powerful. You're basicially giving them access to every prestige class ever. And each of these abilities is at the cost of a couple of feat slots. And look at what they do!



3. Each prestige feat grants you specific "prestige spells", 2 of each spell level from 1st to 5th and 1 of each spell level from 6th to 9th (14 spells total).
4. In addition, each prestige feat grants 2 abilities, one of which is constant and one of which increases in power with level. An example of the first might be the mindbenders telepathy or an alienist`s ability to summon psuedonatural creatures. Examples of the second may include skill bonuses, energy resistances, damage reduction, fast healing, saving throw bonuses, and so on.
5. Each prestige feat may possess 1-3 other feats requiring it as a prerequisite. Each such feat grants a +1 bonus to caster level with all "prestige spells" and grants another benefit.

:smalleek: (emphasis mine)


No one is ever going to take a metamagic feat ever, ever again.

You do balance it a little bit



Notes:
1. The archmage is typically considered one of the more balanced caster PrCs, trading spell slots for class features. prestige spells follow a similar logic. In order to access a prestige spell (a "class feature"), you have to use a spell slot or prepare it for the day. In fact, this gives spontaneous casters an advantage as they need not choose whether to prepare them or not.


But this is a tiny little price to pay. In fact, sorcerers do not get it the better way. Having to give up an entire spell slot, versus having to give up a prepared spell? It gives them a disadvantage, because they don't get to choose.

Where I thought you were going with this, and what I suggest you do, is make the feat itself costs spells per day when you take it. Then its basically a spell that you have to burn a feat slot to learn, not a brand new spell that you gain when you get the feat. That is how the archmage works, and it works way better. And it better be a lot of spells per day, or it still won't have an impact. People are more than willing to sacrifice a little versatility for a little power. Thats why you get the whole wizard/sorcerer dynamic. So it better be a lot of power.

I don't mean to be harsh. I think its a really cool idea, and you can probably make it function non-brokenly. But as it stands, I think its pretty nutty. Nutty in my kind of way, but nutty.

[Drolyt]

:smallconfused:Crazy in the sense that wizards don't need to be more powerful. You're basicially giving them access to every prestige class ever. And each of these abilities is at the cost of a couple of feat slots. And look at what they do!


:smalleek: (emphasis mine)


No one is ever going to take a metamagic feat ever, ever again.

You do balance it a little bit



But this is a tiny little price to pay. In fact, sorcerers do not get it the better way. Having to give up an entire spell slot, versus having to give up a prepared spell? It gives them a disadvantage, because they don't get to choose.

Where I thought you were going with this, and what I suggest you do, is make the feat itself costs spells per day when you take it. Then its basically a spell that you have to burn a feat slot to learn, not a brand new spell that you gain when you get the feat. That is how the archmage works, and it works way better. And it better be a lot of spells per day, or it still won't have an impact. People are more than willing to sacrifice a little versatility for a little power. Thats why you get the whole wizard/sorcerer dynamic. So it better be a lot of power.

I don't mean to be harsh. I think its a really cool idea, and you can probably make it function non-brokenly. But as it stands, I think its pretty nutty. Nutty in my kind of way, but nutty.

I kinda agree with this guy, though I'm not sure he understands how the feats work. As for how I think it should work, I think any abilities that can't be concieved as spells or are constant should require you to sacrifice spell slots ala Archmage, whereas any other abilities should follow your prestige spell idea, being normal spells you can prepare but only available to people with the prestige feat. Also how is the Sorcerer not coming off better? He does choose whether or not to expend the slot, and he has more to expend.

[Anonymouswizard]

This has made me think, and I think I might use this for WAR (the new name for A20). Except that prestige feats are feat chains and the speciality spells are granted along with other benifits only in the later feats (normally 3rd).

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The list of what they do add, as it turns out, isn`t that grand...
1. Better Base Statistics (HD, BAB, Saves, Proficiencies, Skills). Nice bonus but most of these are imitatable by spells.

True, but there's an important difference between a Wizard who is able to fight because of magical enhancement and one who is simply a decent warrior in his or her own right. Likewise between a fast and dexterous wizard and one with a magical speed-enhancer.


3. Casting Alterations. Many caster PrCs change the way you cast spells. Alienists get pseudonatural summons, mindbenders keep charms working indefinitely, Pale Masters cast animate dead without material components, etc. At the end of the day, however, most of these class features end up looking like bonus feats.

To some extent, yes. But that's because any static class feature looks like a bonus feat, if your perception of "bonus feat" is wide enough.


4. Flavor and Prestige. Alienists are masters of inhuman realms, Blood Magi are wizards who use their own lifeblood to attack foes, True Necromancers are (in theory and nothing else) masters of the undead. Of course, with the right spell list, you could replace these PrCs with normal Wizards and Archivists and nobody would be the wiser (at least when used as NPCs).

True. Just like you could replace a Dervish with a Swordsage, a Dwarven Defender with a Fighter or Warblade, a Seeker of the Sublime Chord with a Bard/Sorcerer, and a Hellfire Warlock with a normal Warlock. Still, that loses you a large portion of the mechanics behind a character...those little abilities add up to be greater than the sum of their parts when it comes to making a character unique.


6. Abilities. Of all of the class features that spellcasting PrC could grant, activation-based ones are the most annoying (even if they are sometimes the best). Examples include the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (their primary class feature), The Pale Master (graft touch attacks), and the infamous bloodmagus (awaken the blood/bloodwalk). Although there are certain advantages in class features not being spells (no counterspelling, no dispelling or spell resistance if supernatural), why not just turn them into spells and make a wizard that uses them.

Because they're not always spells? That seems like a good reason to me. My Bloodmagus doesn't Bloodwalk because he learned a spell...he does it because his brush with death has awakened within him an innate connection to blood, and, without recourse to dusty tomes or study, he can draw upon its power. Also, spells are limited...some abilities aren't, and shouldn't be.


Of course, the problem with that is that doing so takes away from the "prestige" of those abilities. In comes my idea.

Your idea works...but, in my mind, only in the sense that all prestige classes could, at some point in their conception, be torn apart into a bunch of powerful feats. If you do this, my Fighter is going to be very upset that he can't snag the advantages of PrCs through his wide amount of Bonus Feats...

In short, the design concept behind feats was to add little bits of flavor to a character's abilities, not to completely redefine the character's styles and techniques. These "Prestige Feats" do exactly the opposite of what feats were intended to do, and therefore clash terribly with the Prestige Class concept, as they do the same thing. Therefore, I'd say use one or the other: allow Prestige Feats across the board, or don't allow them at all.

[Drolyt]

True, but there's an important difference between a Wizard who is able to fight because of magical enhancement and one who is simply a decent warrior in his or her own right. Likewise between a fast and dexterous wizard and one with a magical speed-enhancer.



To some extent, yes. But that's because any static class feature looks like a bonus feat, if your perception of "bonus feat" is wide enough.



True. Just like you could replace a Dervish with a Swordsage, a Dwarven Defender with a Fighter or Warblade, a Seeker of the Sublime Chord with a Bard/Sorcerer, and a Hellfire Warlock with a normal Warlock. Still, that loses you a large portion of the mechanics behind a character...those little abilities add up to be greater than the sum of their parts when it comes to making a character unique.



Because they're not always spells? That seems like a good reason to me. My Bloodmagus doesn't Bloodwalk because he learned a spell...he does it because his brush with death has awakened within him an innate connection to blood, and, without recourse to dusty tomes or study, he can draw upon its power. Also, spells are limited...some abilities aren't, and shouldn't be.



Your idea works...but, in my mind, only in the sense that all prestige classes could, at some point in their conception, be torn apart into a bunch of powerful feats. If you do this, my Fighter is going to be very upset that he can't snag the advantages of PrCs through his wide amount of Bonus Feats...

In short, the design concept behind feats was to add little bits of flavor to a character's abilities, not to completely redefine the character's styles and techniques. These "Prestige Feats" do exactly the opposite of what feats were intended to do, and therefore clash terribly with the Prestige Class concept, as they do the same thing. Therefore, I'd say use one or the other: allow Prestige Feats across the board, or don't allow them at all.

I somewhat agree with this post. You could redefine all prestige classes as prestige feats. And just make them regular feat chains. Heck, you could make the majority of class abilities into feats and call it a day. It would be like generic classes on steroids. But I don't think that's what the OP is going for. He wants to be able to obtain some of the abilities of a prestige class without actually taking one. Although maybe he should just work various prestige class abilities into "Prestige Feats" that work no different from regular feats except if you take Prestige Feats you cannot also take Prestige Classes.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I somewhat agree with this post. You could redefine all prestige classes as prestige feats. And just make them regular feat chains. Heck, you could make the majority of class abilities into feats and call it a day. It would be like generic classes on steroids. But I don't think that's what the OP is going for. He wants to be able to obtain some of the abilities of a prestige class without actually taking one. Although maybe he should just work various prestige class abilities into "Prestige Feats" that work no different from regular feats except if you take Prestige Feats you cannot also take Prestige Classes.

That's the problem:taking "some" of the abilities of Prestige Classes without taking the others is the opposite of what a Prestige Class is about. With some prestige classes (those I call "Enhancement" or "Specialty" prestige classes) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137641) this sort of treatment is okay, as the classes themselves are largely improvements upon existing abilities or at least extremely related abilities. The other sort, however ("Essence" classes) are those that contain themes and abilities that just aren't meant to be taken out of context or removed from the class as a whole. Those can't really be replicated via feats without destroying the idea of the Prestige Class and what makes it Prestigious.

[Drolyt]

That's the problem:taking "some" of the abilities of Prestige Classes without taking the others is the opposite of what a Prestige Class is about. With some prestige classes (those I call "Enhancement" or "Specialty" prestige classes) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137641) this sort of treatment is okay, as the classes themselves are largely improvements upon existing abilities or at least extremely related abilities. The other sort, however ("Essence" classes) are those that contain themes and abilities that just aren't meant to be taken out of context or removed from the class as a whole. Those can't really be replicated via feats without destroying the idea of the Prestige Class and what makes it Prestigious.

I think that's why he had the idea of creating special prestige feats that are more difficult to obtain than normal feats. At any rate I don't like the idea that certain abilities are completely unique to one organization or whatnot.

[Dante & Vergil]

For multiclassing, you can use this variant (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Single_Class_Progression_(DnD_Variant_Rule)) (Only up to the triple multiclassing section as the rest seems kinda weak) and use prestige feats to reduce the multiclassing penalty.

[Drolyt]

Actually for prestige classes that are just multi-classing you can use my variant here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138173), though it is incomplete.

[Realms of Chaos]

Actually, I concede that my approach was a terrible one, dissassembling PrCs for spellcasters but not for fighters (which need the boost).

Still, I think that more feats like the mother cyst feat are in order, feats that give a series of spells arranged around a tight theme. Also, I think that such spells given shouldn`t be scribe-able to prevent cheese with archivists and wizards. Take the feat or no spells for you.

[Anonymouswizard]

Actually, I concede that my approach was a terrible one, dissassembling PrCs for spellcasters but not for fighters (which need the boost).

Still, I think that more feats like the mother cyst feat are in order, feats that give a series of spells arranged around a tight theme. Also, I think that such spells given shouldn`t be scribe-able to prevent cheese with archivists and wizards. Take the feat or no spells for you.

Or the feat reduces a penalty for casting. For example, without the feat blood magic spells deal constitution damage or drain, and there could be spells that feed of the characters casting ability. Others deal massive hit point damage calculated in d10s. And maybe some have a percentage chance of killing the caster instead of their normal effect. At least two of those would make wizards without the feat think twice.

And maybe you must search out the spells after gaining the feat, so you must travel to an ancient shrine to gain bloodwalk.