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View Full Version : I got so tired, I can run again!



taltamir
2010-01-10, 09:05 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#exhausted


Fatigued
A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.


Exhausted
An exhausted character moves at half speed and takes a -6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued. A fatigued character becomes exhausted by doing something else that would normally cause fatigue.

If you were already fatigued and do something that would make you fatigued you lost an additional 4 points of str and dex, lose half your speed, and REGAIN the ability to run and charge.

Conversely, after an hour of rest, an exhausted character regains 4 points of STR and DEX, and his speed increases to full (from half), but they lose the ability to run or charge!

FishAreWet
2010-01-10, 09:07 PM
they're cumulative

taltamir
2010-01-10, 09:15 PM
they're cumulative

where does it say that? does that mean that exhausted have a total of -8 instead of -6? or are those portions non cumulative? if they are at -8, then the description is VERY confusing (since anyone who looks it up in the SRD is going to think it is a -6 unless he remembers he needs to add it to the -2 from fatigued).

Demented
2010-01-10, 09:22 PM
Your run speed with the run feat while exhausted is the same as a double move while fatigued.
So, really you can only charge again.

FishAreWet
2010-01-10, 09:34 PM
where does it say that? does that mean that exhausted have a total of -8 instead of -6? or are those portions non cumulative? if they are at -8, then the description is VERY confusing (since anyone who looks it up in the SRD is going to think it is a -6 unless he remembers he needs to add it to the -2 from fatigued).

it doesn't need to say it. penalties stack unless otherwise noted.

the same way a panicked creature is also shaken and takes a -4.

a Q&A verifies this, i forgot which one.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-11, 08:40 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#exhausted





If you were already fatigued and do something that would make you fatigued you lost an additional 4 points of str and dex, lose half your speed, and REGAIN the ability to run and charge.

Conversely, after an hour of rest, an exhausted character regains 4 points of STR and DEX, and his speed increases to full (from half), but they lose the ability to run or charge!

Funny. I'm sure TO will appreciate this.

Doc Roc
2010-01-11, 08:44 AM
Nothing there implies that when you become exhausted that you lose the fatigued condition.

IonDragon
2010-01-11, 08:53 AM
Nothing there implies that when you become exhausted that you lose the fatigued condition.

Then after you rest for an hour you become Fatigued x2 and Exhausted x1? Because it doesn't imply you that you lose any conditions either... Besides, isn't it possible to become Exhausted without ever being Fatigued?

warmachine
2010-01-11, 09:17 AM
From the text written in the OP, the states of Exhausted and Fatigued must be mutually exclusive. There appears to be no way to lose the Exhausted state by rest, which clearly nonsensical, unless the following sentence means the Fatigued state is mutually exclusive and, thus, replaces the Exhausted state: "After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued." The OP's logic seems to be correct.

Bayar
2010-01-11, 09:59 AM
From the same page:


Condition Summary

If more than one condition affects a character, apply them all. If certain effects can’t combine, apply the most severe effect.

Fatigue and exhausted can stack perfectly fine. you only apply the STR+DEX penalties from the exhausted effect, since penalties (like bonuses) dont stack if they are from the same source.

After becoming exhausted and resting for 1 hour, you become fatigued. But since you were already fatigued, they cannot stack, so you only apply the most severe one, which is fatigued.

Duke of URL
2010-01-11, 10:20 AM
Yeah, looks like a case of poor writing. The rules should explicitly state that exhausted carries all of the penalties of fatigued, plus increases the attribute penalties and adds the speed penalties.

This is clearly the RAI.

Optimystik
2010-01-11, 10:52 AM
From the same page:



Fatigue and exhausted can stack perfectly fine. you only apply the STR+DEX penalties from the exhausted effect, since penalties (like bonuses) dont stack if they are from the same source.

After becoming exhausted and resting for 1 hour, you become fatigued. But since you were already fatigued, they cannot stack, so you only apply the most severe one, which is fatigued.

I would say Bayar nailed this one.

Roderick_BR
2010-01-11, 02:32 PM
Lawl. Conflicting text. You can run at half your speed AND you cant run.
So, I can run, or I can't? Or I can half run. Or I can half run what I can't run... *head a'splode"

ocdscale
2010-01-11, 02:48 PM
Lawl. Conflicting text. You can run at half your speed AND you cant run.
So, I can run, or I can't? Or I can half run. Or I can half run what I can't run... *head a'splode"

I don't see anything there that says "You can run."
The OPs point is that if Exhausted replaces Fatigued, Exhausted doesn't have a prohibition on running, thus you can run at half speed.
Other interpretations argue that Exhausted stacks with Fatigued, thus you cannot run (Fatigued) and other movement is done at half speed (Exhausted).

I don't see any interpretation that would result in your "You can run at half speed AND you can't run.."

Edit: This may be a language barrier problem: "Run" is a specific type of movement, so Fatigue prevents you from doing that, but it doesn't prevent you from moving normally.

Rixx
2010-01-11, 02:51 PM
Explain to your DM (or players) that now that your character is exhausted rather than merely fatigued, he can run again. I'm sure they'll oblige.

taltamir
2010-01-11, 06:42 PM
From the same page:



Fatigue and exhausted can stack perfectly fine. you only apply the STR+DEX penalties from the exhausted effect, since penalties (like bonuses) dont stack if they are from the same source.

After becoming exhausted and resting for 1 hour, you become fatigued. But since you were already fatigued, they cannot stack, so you only apply the most severe one, which is fatigued.

the problem with that RAI interpretation (whether it is actually RAW or not)... lets say you forgot what exhausted does; so you look it up. Now, having not remembered what it does, you certainly don't remember that it lists all the features of fatigue except for one, and will likely not bother checking fatigue to verify the exact conditions...

basically, most people will miss the full spectrum of what it does.

Bayar
2010-01-12, 02:37 AM
the problem with that RAI interpretation (whether it is actually RAW or not)... lets say you forgot what exhausted does; so you look it up. Now, having not remembered what it does, you certainly don't remember that it lists all the features of fatigue except for one, and will likely not bother checking fatigue to verify the exact conditions...

basically, most people will miss the full spectrum of what it does.

Then, it is the players and the DM's fault for not playing as written and as intended. RAW is preety clear in this case.

taltamir
2010-01-12, 02:45 AM
Then, it is the players and the DM's fault for not playing as written and as intended. RAW is preety clear in this case.

its their fault the rules don't specify all the rules and assume that the players should know the unspecified ones?

gibbo88
2010-01-12, 05:03 AM
There has to be some level of what you can assume. If you are told a fire is hot, and not to touch it, you don't assume that the gas stove is not hot and you should touch it because it wasn't explicitly mentioned. You look at the similar red parts and, if needed, feel the heat and recognize that the similar rule applies.

IonDragon
2010-01-12, 05:41 AM
There has to be some level of what you can assume. If you are told a fire is hot, and not to touch it, you don't assume that the gas stove is not hot and you should touch it because it wasn't explicitly mentioned. You look at the similar red parts and, if needed, feel the heat and recognize that the similar rule applies.

But the entire point here is that all we've been given is one piece of information: You can't run while fatigued.

So, let's say your character is Exhausted. You can't remember what that does so you look it up. It does not reference Fatigue nor does it state you can not run. Obviously it stands to reason that you can not run, that is the general consensus. but it's not really a 'fire is hot' scenario.

2xMachina
2010-01-12, 07:25 AM
You only get to exhausted after fatigue, so you'd know what fatigue does, or will be looking for it too..

Killer Angel
2010-01-12, 09:02 AM
You only get to exhausted after fatigue, so you'd know what fatigue does, or will be looking for it too..

If you fail Vs Ray of exaustion, you became immediately exausted, not passing through the fatigued condition. It is not specified that an exausted character is also fatigued, so by raw (unless I'm missing something) you cannot apply the "If more than one condition affects a character, apply them all."

Bayar
2010-01-12, 10:34 AM
If you fail Vs Ray of exaustion, you became immediately exausted, not passing through the fatigued condition. It is not specified that an exausted character is also fatigued, so by raw (unless I'm missing something) you cannot apply the "If more than one condition affects a character, apply them all."

From the same spell:

If you are already fatigued, the spell automatically makes you exhausted, no save.

When the spell ends, the effect ends as well.

So they mention that fatigued characters automatically get exhausted. Non-fatigued characters have to make a save or become exhausted. If they save, they only become fatigued instead. Characters already exhausted are not affected by the spell.

So yeah, by RAW, you can apply both fatigued and exhausted to a character.


Saving Throw: Fortitude partial; see text


A black ray projects from your pointing finger. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to strike a target.

The subject is immediately exhausted for the spell’s duration. A successful Fortitude save means the creature is only fatigued.

A character that is already fatigued instead becomes exhausted.

This spell has no effect on a creature that is already exhausted. Unlike normal exhaustion or fatigue, the effect ends as soon as the spell’s duration expires.
Material Component

A drop of sweat.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-12, 10:42 AM
I think what he's saying is:

Someone casts Ray of Exhaustion on you. You are neither fatigued nor exhausted.

You fail the save, and become Exhausted. However, you were never fatigued. In this circumstance, you may run at half speed, being exhausted, but not fatigued.

Killer Angel
2010-01-12, 10:49 AM
I think what he's saying is:

Someone casts Ray of Exhaustion on you. You are neither fatigued nor exhausted.

You fail the save, and become Exhausted. However, you were never fatigued. In this circumstance, you may run at half speed, being exhausted, but not fatigued.

Exactly: this is what I was saying, sorry if I didn't explain better.
Let me be clear: obviously, an exausted character should suffer also the fatigued penalty (AKA he shouldn't run). RAI is pretty clear, but RAW was written poorly.

taltamir
2010-01-12, 12:23 PM
I think what he's saying is:

Someone casts Ray of Exhaustion on you. You are neither fatigued nor exhausted.

You fail the save, and become Exhausted. However, you were never fatigued. In this circumstance, you may run at half speed, being exhausted, but not fatigued.

furthermore, if you didn't know what either of those things does, and someone cast ray of exhaustion on you, and you failed your save. you now look up exhausted and find out what it does, but you are missing one of the items.

Bayar
2010-01-12, 12:44 PM
furthermore, if you didn't know what either of those things does, and someone cast ray of exhaustion on you, and you failed your save. you now look up exhausted and find out what it does, but you are missing one of the items.

But what if someone casts ray of exhaustion on you and you succeed on your save ? Then that someone casts ray of exhaustion again at you. What then ?

Keshay
2010-01-12, 12:48 PM
its their fault the rules don't specify all the rules and assume that the players should know the unspecified ones?

The rules do specify all of the rules, just not in the place you're choosing to look. It would be your fault your search was incomplete. Rules remain rules regardless of an individual's knowlege of them.

And in general yes, when you play a game you are expected to actually know the rules.

Jayabalard
2010-01-12, 12:53 PM
where does it say that? Where does it say that you stop being fatigued when you become exhausted? You only stop being fatigued after 8 hours of complete rest.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-01-12, 01:00 PM
But what if someone casts ray of exhaustion on you and you succeed on your save ? Then that someone casts ray of exhaustion again at you. What then ?
You succeed on your save: You become fatigued.

On the second casting, the rule about same effect from same source might apply (not sure), so if you make the save you remain fatigued, since the same spell cannot stack with itself. However, if you fail the save, exhausted is a stronger result of the same effect, so it would definitely apply.


The rules do specify all of the rules, just not in the place you're choosing to look. It would be your fault your search was incomplete.
How are you supposed to know your search is incomplete if the description only indicates the application of one condition. We’re supposed to comb the entire glossary just in case a spell neglects to mention a sister condition that may or may not apply alongside the indicated condition?


And in general yes, when you play a game you are expected to actually know the rules.
The rules that you are using, sure. But I can’t say it’s practical to memorize every single page in every rule book on the off hand chance some spell or effect that only comes into play a handful of times (at most) in a campaign can be used without referencing the book.

There’s a reason people bring their books to the game.

Bayar
2010-01-12, 01:56 PM
You succeed on your save: You become fatigued.

On the second casting, the rule about same effect from same source might apply (not sure), so if you make the save you remain fatigued, since the same spell cannot stack with itself. However, if you fail the save, exhausted is a stronger result of the same effect, so it would definitely apply.

Read the spell description again, please:


A black ray projects from your pointing finger. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to strike a target.

The subject is immediately exhausted for the spell’s duration. A successful Fortitude save means the creature is only fatigued.

A character that is already fatigued instead becomes exhausted.

This spell has no effect on a creature that is already exhausted. Unlike normal exhaustion or fatigue, the effect ends as soon as the spell’s duration expires.
Material Component

A drop of sweat.

It does not say that a fatigued character that fails his save instead becomes exhausted.

It says that if a character is already fatigued instead becomes exhausted. And it makes perfect sense. An effect that causes you to become fatigued when you already are fatigued causes you to become exhausted. That is RAW. So even if you would succeed your save you will become exhausted.

Jayabalard
2010-01-12, 02:06 PM
There’s a reason people bring their books to the game.To beat Rules Lawyer's to death with them?

Person_Man
2010-01-12, 03:38 PM
I'd add that being Exhausted is a pretty rare condition. There are a couple of spells, the Brass Mane soulmeld bound to throat, Battleshifter Training, and maybe some magazine materials. I can't even think of an efficient way to optimize it, and can't recall anyone every being Exhausted in a game I've played (although Fatigue certainly comes up with Barbarians).

Bayar
2010-01-14, 12:07 AM
I'd add that being Exhausted is a pretty rare condition. There are a couple of spells, the Brass Mane soulmeld bound to throat, Battleshifter Training, and maybe some magazine materials. I can't even think of an efficient way to optimize it, and can't recall anyone every being Exhausted in a game I've played (although Fatigue certainly comes up with Barbarians).

Wizards that like the Necromancy school will do this. With Ray of Exhaustion, Escalating Enfeeblement, Channeled Lifetheft, Waves of Exhaustion...

SethFahad
2010-01-14, 12:45 AM
Rules Compendium page 35 states:

Exhausted: An exhausted creature can neither run nor charge, and it takes a –6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity.
It can move at only half speed. After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted creature becomes fatigued.

Same book, same page.

Fatigued: A fatigued creature can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes a fatigued creature to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, a fatigued creature is no longer fatigued.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-14, 01:35 AM
On the matter of whether someone knows the rules or not, I'd think that fatigued-exhausted would be one of those most basic rules that virtually everybody knows, or anyone who speaks fluent English could infer.

Dimers
2010-01-14, 10:13 PM
I'd add that being Exhausted is a pretty rare condition. There are a couple of spells, the Brass Mane soulmeld bound to throat, Battleshifter Training, and maybe some magazine materials. I can't even think of an efficient way to optimize it, and can't recall anyone every being Exhausted in a game I've played (although Fatigue certainly comes up with Barbarians).

Well, people like throwing around Frenzied Berserker builds here on the forum, and someone who's come out of a rage+frenzy is Exhausted instead of fatigued. Of course, since everything within a few hundred feet is now probably dead, that doesn't matter much ... :smallwink:

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-14, 10:16 PM
To beat Rules Lawyer's to death with them?

This. By God, this. I'm a rules lawyer in PbP, but this.

Killer Angel
2010-01-15, 03:18 AM
Rules Compendium page 35

This ends the thread.
Still, I could argue that the simple fact that this needed a errata (or clarification) in the Rule Compendium, imo means that the OP wasn't wrong, in pointing out the contradiction.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 03:03 PM
Rules Compendium page 35 states:

Same book, same page.

Aha! well... then this should be considered a correction, because the SRD clearly does not say the same.