Count to Nine (DStP semi-spoilers)

[Erathia]

In Don't Split the Party, Rich confirms in his in-between text that the demon roach's count (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) of the parties interested in the gates is accurate. So, with the development in 698 of Girard potentially having his own party, I thought of a list of nine possibilities, and wonder what everyone else's opinion might be!

Definite Groups
1) The Order of the Stick: Well, obviously.
2) Xykon: Also obviously!
3) The I.F.C.C.: Still obviously, if it's unclear as to why!

Possible Groups
4) Redcloak and the Goblins: Although it's not been made clear that their plan for the gate would be different from Xykon, they almost certainly have different goals. However given that they're working together, and we know they need each other, I'm not completely sure they're distinct enough to be worth differentiating.
5) The Linear Guild: The I.F.C.C. says they're using Nale via Sabine to achieve their own ends, so it's a bit of a grey area. However Nale is operating independently enough that he's interested in it for his own reasons anyway.
6) Girard: Presumably still alive, and now assumed to be working with his own group.
7) Serini: The only member of the original group that is unaccounted for, although Xykon being in possession of her diary does not bode well for the possibilities of her survival.
8) The Sapphire Guard: Not many of them left, but they certainly had their own plans for the gate. Still, they were the most likely to be unwilling to investigate any of the other four.
9) The Snarl: The Snarl didn't understand the formation of his prison, and hasn't noticed that three of the gates are destroyed, so it's unclear if it has any interest in the gates, and almost certainly isn't manipulating anyone

So that's my list of the nine, in decreasing order of how confident I am that they should belong in the list. What're other people's opinions on this?

[Katana_Geldar]

Rich says that there is a side of the conflict which we have yet to meet, so it could be completely unknown. The demon roaches also talk about "some of those they don't know about" implying there is more than one.

[Erathia]

I know, I assumed that to be Girard, and right now we are going through the process of meeting him or whomever he represents right now.

[DBJack]

I think the definite groups are

1. OoTS
2. Xykon
3. Redcloak and the Goblins
4. Linear Guild
5. IFCC
6. The Saphire Guard
7. To be introduced

The IFCC and the ones we'll meet in this book are presumably 'the ones we don't know about yet.'

From there, who else knows about the gates enough to represent a 'side?'

The Order of the Scribble, which can be broken down to Girard and Serini if we need to, and maybe, just maybe, the snarl.

No one else that we know knows about the gates enough to be a side. I presume the list to be

1. OoTS
2. Xykon
3. Redcloak and the Goblins
4. Linear Guild
5. IFCC
6. The Saphire Guard
7. Girard
8. Serini
9. To be introduced

With the one to be introduced tied somehow to the Snarl world

[Zevox]

Query: while confirming this, did Rich also confirm that the sides being referred to were specifically those interested in the Gates? Because that has long been a hang-up of these discussions - which "conflict" the Roaches were referring to, whether it be the Gates specifically or the comic as a whole, or something else.

Assuming he did, I'd add Redcloak and the Goblins and the Linear Guild as "definite" sides. The whole point of Redcloak's conversation in that strip was that he and Xykon are not on the same "side" when it comes to what to do with the Gates, after all, and we do know that Nale has expressed an interest in the Gates as well. Though there is the question of whether to lump the Linear Guild and the IFCC together or not, due to the Sabine connection and their probable manipulation of the Linear Guild through her for their own ends. Though I suppose that may end up as another Xykon-Redcloak situation, with two sides mostly allied but not quite of one mind about the ends of their alliance.

Girard and his "us" (or just his "us," depending on whether they're still working for/with Girard or not) does seem like a strong candidate for the new "side" we'll be meeting in this part of the story, given recent events.

For the Sapphire Guard, I'm not sure if they shouldn't be lumped together with the Order in a single "the good guys" side, given their goals with regards to the Gates are actually in alignment.

The Snarl seems like a cop-out to me. Unless we discover that it has become intelligent and is capable of influencing the struggle over the Gates somehow, it really doesn't count. The outcome of the struggle affects it, sure, but it can't be involved in that struggle.

Zevox

[ZakRenning]

Don't forget the elves! :D

[grautry]

Don't forget that the roach says it's at least nine. There could be more.

[Hardcore]

I count Girard and Serini as one group.
So:

1. OoTS
2. Xykon
3. The Dark One with Redcloak and the Goblins
4. The Linear Guild. But they work/are pawns for...
5. IFCC. So I am not sure the Linear Guild is a separate grouping.
6. The Western gods with the Saphire Guard
7. Girard and Serini. Possibly you could include Lirians elven relatives and friends/allies

This is 7 or maybe even 6.

[DBJack]

Zevox: I don't think the Giant has ever confirmed or denied "conflict." The Roaches mention sides to "this conflict," and since the main conflict of the story is about the gates, it's logical (in my mind at least) to assume that the 'sides' are over gates themselves. Otherwise, every side in conflict would make up a large list, adding the thieve's guild, the ancient black dragon, tiamat, the MiTD, the resistance, the elves, the azurites besides the Saphire Guard, the Oracle, the slavers, Kubota's side.... The list keeps going. The Roaches gave a pretty solid number. It wasn't 'around 10' or 'over 9,' it was 'at least 9,' so Rich can add more sides if he needs to but if not, we have a number to go off of.


The Linear Guild is a different grouping than the IFCC because they don't know they are alligned with the IFCC. Their activities further the cause of the IFCC, but they have set independant goals.

I don't think we know enough about Girard and Serini to put them together or apart. Since it's possible Girard and his allies have very different goals than Serini, it might not be wise to sum them together just yet.

*edit* The Saphire Guard doesn't seem to be grouped with the OoTS. They are working together now, but for a while they didn't because of the oath. Their goals are to save the world because they are Lawful Good, while the OoTS is doing it because it is a personal fight too. It's their campaign.

[Gift Jeraff]

I would group the 'sides' by who is leading them on the mortal plane as opposed to group (with the exception of the IFCC), so you don't get into technicalities like "Well, Xykon and Redcloak are in the same team!!" Thus:

-Roy (followers: the Order of the Stick; allied with the Sapphire Guard [although it's possible they'll came into conflict later])
-Xykon (followers: Tsukiko, various undead; 'allied' with Redcloak & co. and the MitD)
-Redcloak (followers: Jirix & the hobgoblin horde; aided/truly lead by the Dark One; 'allied' with Xykon and the MitD)
-Nale (followers: Thog; being manipulated by Sabine/the IFCC)
-Lee, Nero, & Cedrik (followers: Sabine, Qarr; manipulating Nale)
-To-be-revealed-in-current-story-arc



Don't forget that the roach says it's at least nine. There could be more.
I interpreted that as "There will eventually be clearly nine sides, but you could argue for more." Like, say, Belkar is his own side since he's not in it for the same reason as the rest of the Order, or maybe Generic Hobgoblin #2364 feels that the Dark One is wrong but must stay in the army for his family.

[Zevox]

*edit* The Saphire Guard doesn't seem to be grouped with the OoTS. They are working together now, but for a while they didn't because of the oath. Their goals are to save the world because they are Lawful Good, while the OoTS is doing it because it is a personal fight too. It's their campaign.
I would disagree. The two have precisely the same goals: to keep the Gates safe from Xykon. That their individual motivations may differ does not make them different sides at all.

The Linear Guild and IFCC are separated by the fact that Nale's intentions for the Gates almost certainly are not the same as the IFCC's, even though we don't know what either of them intend just yet. Xykon and Redcloak are separated by the fact that *SoD spoilers*
Redcloak intends to turn control of a Gate directly over to the Dark One so he can use it to threaten the other gods into giving Goblins a fair shake, while Xykon thinks that he'll be the one with control of the Gate, using it to threaten the world into accepting him as its ruler.
The Order and the Sapphire Guard have no such difference of intent or aim, and are actively cooperating towards their goals. That sounds like one side to me.

Zevox

[Boogastreehouse]

Someone already started a thread on this subject last July...

Um... me.

heh.


That thread can be found here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6857595#post6857595) My breakdown was as follows:


Xykon --the lich who wants to take control of the gates, mainly just because he can. His pawns include Tsukiko, Redcloak (who actually belongs to another side), and the MiD (who will probably turn on him)

The Gods --beings who want to keep the Snarl imprisoned, for their own protection and incidentally for the benefit of the world. They have a lot in common with the Mortals United to Defeat Xykon, but would probably abandon the mortals to save themselves. The gods who were/are secretly aiding The Dark One (Loki, I think? And Rat? And Tiamat?) might be on that side, or belong to a faction of their own.

The Snarl --a creature that wants to unmake the world. No known pawns.

The Mortals United (more or less) to Defeat Xykon --This faction is different from the gods, because it has been implied that the gods might just wait and see what happens—they'll hide somewhere safe again if the world gets another wipe and just re-boot it again later. The mortals on the other hand intend to fight to survive. This faction so far includes The Sapphire Guard, their allies the Elves, probably the Dwarves and, of course, the Order of the Stick.

Inhabitants of the Inner World --Any people living on the world that exists within the Snarl probably have their own priorities, though what they are remains unknown at this time. Perhaps they want to see the Snarl destroyed, or maybe that's the last thing that they want. Maybe the Greek Pantheon is in there, too. Their agenda, if they have one (if they even know about the outside world... and assuming there are even people on this planet!) remains uncertain.

The IFCC --An Infernal Alliance that now knows of the gates that imprison the Snarl. Their stated goal is to storm the Gates of Heaven in a properly Milton-like fashion, probably using the Snarl as a weapon. Assuming they're telling the truth. Their pawns include The Linear Guild, Quaar, and now Vaarsuvius

The Dark One --that Redcloak worships. I have yet to read any of the material not online (Start of Darkness, etc...) but I have gleaned from other people's comments thatthe Dark One is prepared to use the Snarl unmake civilization. Now that the Dark One is a god, he expects to be able to survive the destruction, like the gods managed to do last time, and then be a part of the process of remaking the next world.

[Turkish Delight]

The IFCC and the Linear Guild aren't necessarily on the same side, owing to Nale being manipulated. If he finds out, and responds negatively to finding out, he could easily count as another 'side' in the equation.

Of course, that could result in quite the falling out between Nale and Sabine, which would be interesting.

[Zevox]

The Dark One --that Redcloak worships. I have yet to read any of the material not online (Start of Darkness, etc...) but I have gleaned from other people's comments thatthe Dark One is prepared to use the Snarl unmake civilization. Now that the Dark One is a god, he expects to be able to survive the destruction, like the gods managed to do last time, and then be a part of the process of remaking the next world.
You have gleaned incorrectly.
The Dark One's goal is to gain control of one of the Gates, thereby allowing him to move it where he pleases and open it when he pleases, indirectly controlling where and when the Snarl can strike. With that, he will threaten the other gods with annihilation unless they agree to give goblins a fair shake in the world. His plan does not include actually unmaking anything unless it proves necessary to prove he will carry out his threat against the other gods, and even then he'd be unmaking a god or two, not the world.

The possibility of the world being unmade and the Dark One being involved in creating a third one was discussed as well, but only in the context of the Snarl being released by pure accident. It is no one's plan, merely Redcloak's consolation that not all is lost for his cause even should the worst happen.
Incidentally, I'd raise a similar objection against calling the gods a side as I did with the Snarl. We have no indication that they will actually do anything in this struggle. Yes, they have a stake in the outcome, but so potentially does all of existence, but that doesn't make everyone on the planet a "side" in the conflict. If they're not actually involved in the struggle, they shouldn't be counted as a side in it, in my mind.


Of course, that could result in quite the falling out between Nale and Sabine, which would be interesting.
Either that or a falling out between Sabine and the IFCC, which would be at least as interesting, if not more so, in my opinion.

Zevox

[Shhalahr Windrider]

The IFCC and the Linear Guild aren't necessarily on the same side, owing to Nale being manipulated.
Indeed. The IFCC certainly don’t consider the Linear Guild to be on the same side, given the way they see the Guild as mere pawns.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Known associations that are involved with the gates.
1.) OotS
2.) Xykon and Redcloak
3.) Sapphire Guard
4.) The IFCC
5.) Linear Guild
6.) Girard and pals
7.) The Gods
8.) Liran and pals.
9.) ????



The Linear Guild may be combined with the IFCC. The IFCC didn't know about the gates until they were told about it by Sabine. That implies they are the same "side."

The Gods may not count as well. They have yet to interfere with the gates. With the exception of the Dark One. The Dark One would be included in Xykon and Redcloak.

Liran and pals may not count either since they were defeated by Xykon at the first gate.

Possible 9th include guys guarding the last gate, Serini and pals, or some group the Order of the Scribble defeated.

[Asta Kask]

Baron Pineapple!

[Shale]

I'd count Nale as his own side, or Nale and Thog together, rather than "the Linear Guild," since Sabine has so far been loyal to the IFCC over her mortal allies.

[warrl]

If Sabine is loyal to the IFCC rather than the Linear Guild, then she is part of the IFCC's side. She is not an additional side.

However, we know for certain that Redcloak is attempting to use and manipulate Xykon, while Xykon constantly uses and manipulates everyone. They are not really on the same side.

Thus, if Redcloak is side #2, Xykon is side #9.

[Shale]

Sorry if I was unclear, that's what I meant. Sabine is part of the IFCC faction, and Nale (or Nale/Thog) is a faction. "The Linear Guild" isn't a side, since its membership is split between Nale's side and the IFCC's.

[Nimrod's Son]

The difference between Nale and the Linear Guild is the same as the difference between Trent Reznor and Nine Inch Nails.

[Azukar]

Nobody has yet mentioned:

1. Lord Tyrinar and his lot,

2. Ian Starshine (and possibly his lot too, if he has one).

Surely at least one of these should count for a side?

[Asta Kask]

The difference between Nale and the Linear Guild is the same as the difference between Trent Reznor and Nine Inch Nails Nales.

FTFY. :smallbiggrin:

[Zevox]

Nobody has yet mentioned:

1. Lord Tyrinar and his lot,

2. Ian Starshine (and possibly his lot too, if he has one).

Surely at least one of these should count for a side?
Only if they actually get involved with the struggle over the Gates. Thus far they haven't even made an actual appearance in the story, so we have no idea what role they will play, if any.

Zevox

[Shhalahr Windrider]

[QUOTE=ObadiahtheSlim;7685283The Linear Guild may be combined with the IFCC. The IFCC didn't know about the gates until they were told about it by Sabine. That implies they are the same "side."[/QUOTE]
That no more makes them the same side than Redcloak telling Xykon about the gates makes those two the same side.

[FabuVinny]

Rich says that there is a side of the conflict which we have yet to meet, so it could be completely unknown.Recent developments make it clear that the side in question is Girard's lot.

Sides don't have to be completely seperate - Redcloak seems to suggest in the context of the quote that Xykon could be considered a different 'side' to the conflict, albeit one the goblins would rather not be opposing if they can help it. So...

1) The Order of the Stick (The core six)
2) Team Evil (Xykon, Tsukiko, maybe Redcloak and the MiTD, their giant army)
3) The Dark One (served by Redcloak, Jirix, hobgoblins)
4) The Azurites (formally The Sapphire Guard)
6) The IFCC (using V and the LG as pawns)
5) The Linear Guild (led by Nale, with Sabine representing the interests of the IFCC, also thog and any other new members they've found.)
7) Girard's group (currently being sought out by the Order)
8) ???
9) ???

There's also Lirian's group in SoD. They aren't a part of the current conflict but might have a link to the elves retaking Azure City. Either way, the elves are definately strong candidates for becoming a side. I wouldn't count Seniri yet but if so it would make Dorukan the only member of the surviving Scribbles not to have ever counted as a side.

[Gift Jeraff]

There's also Lirian's group in SoD. They aren't a part of the current conflict but might have a link to the elves retaking Azure City. Either way, the elves are definately strong candidates for becoming a side. I wouldn't count Seniri yet but if so it would make Dorukan the only member of the surviving Scribbles not to have ever counted as a side.
Well, the flumphs were in his dungeon and are Good-aligned; for all we know they actually worked for him and know all about the Gates.

But in all seriousness, I actually do kinda expect one of the characters we least expect to turn out to be their own side. In order of which I think are most likely to do so to least likely:The Oracle, the demon roaches, the lawyers, the flumphs, Mr. Scruffy, Qarr. But then again, the Oracle and demon roaches can cheat thanks to their fourth wall-breaking and future-seeing powers.

[Brendan]

What about the gods?

[Asta Kask]

Do the flumphs count as a side?

[Mortizal]

No one has mentioned it yet, but:

One side could be the :roach:s themselves. Why else would they be following :xykon: around?

[Gift Jeraff]

No one has mentioned it yet, but:

One side could be the :roach:s themselves. Why else would they be following :xykon: around?

C'mon, I did only 2 posts above you.

But anyway, another possibility to consider is the two repitlian spellcaster's boss mentioned by the Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html). Since we've various members of those guys' race in the Western Continent, I would not be surprised if they end up being a completely independent side or involved with Girard somehow.

EDIT: Could also go in hand with the "the person who supplied the Oracle with QuestGuard cast the scrying spell seen in #698" idea.

[Forbiddenwar]

C'mon, I did only 2 posts above you.

But anyway, another possibility to consider is the two repitlian spellcaster's boss mentioned by the Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html). Since we've various members of those guys' race in the Western Continent, I would not be surprised if they end up being a completely independent side or involved with Girard somehow.

EDIT: Could also go in hand with the "the person who supplied the Oracle with QuestGuard cast the scrying spell seen in #698" idea.

They are most likely clerics, which would make their boss a god, probably Tiamat. Which fits the gods side.