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View Full Version : [3.5]/[4.0] Help convert my character!



rezplz
2010-01-11, 03:46 AM
So in 3.5 I had this character of mine that I really grew to love, mainly because the character was an arrogant ******* obsessed with winning at any cost. The story is, as a child he wanted to be a booklearning type. Maybe even a wizard. But his father punished him for wanting to be anything that wasn't a soldier, and forced him into a military life, saying that he didn't want a son who couldn't win a fight. So he became obsessed with winning and being the best to please his father, resorting to dirty tactics to come out on top.

In 3.5, I first made him by being a trip-fighter with a heavy flail, with a 1-2 level dip into rogue. When I started looking into variants recently, I decided he'd be better off as a sneak attack thug with a one-level dip in sneak attack fighter for the armor proficiency. He'd rely heavily on improved feint, which works at lower levels when you only get one attack anyway.

No matter how I made him, he always had a flail or heavy flail. After a while it just became part of his character - it's hard to imagine him without a flail now.

Then when I first tried 4.0, I figured that I'd try to remake him. I made him a fighter, gave him a multiclass feat into rogue so he could sneak attack, and trained him in stealth... and gave him a heavy flail. With brute strike, sneak attack, and having stealth and thievery - there was no rogue - he was the most effective character in every combat, and the main non-combat encounter, too.

And then I found out that apparently, in 4.0, you can only sneak attack with light blades. This made me very sad, as I really enjoyed sneak attacking with a flail for uber damage.


I only have the player's handbook and I'm not familiar with 4.0, but I still want to play this lovely ******* of a character, with a flail and sneak attack if at all possible. Are there any effective ways that I can do this?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-01-11, 04:47 AM
Martial Power has feats and rogue variants that allow you to sneak attack with clubs, maces, longswords, axes, hammers, and picks, but not flails. I'm not sure why it wasn't included, unless I missed it, or it's coming out in Martial Power 2, or it's in some other book I haven't checked. I think it would be easy enough to homebrew a similar feat for flails, though. I'd model it off Street Thug (Martial Power pg. 139), which allows you to sneak attack with a mace for one less die of sneak attack damage.

If you really plan on sneak attacking a lot, though, you might want to be able to sneak attack more than once an encounter, which is what multiclass rogue gives you. You could go rogue multiclassed into fighter, but then you're pretty squishy, and you'd need to burn an additional feat to gain flail proficiency. You could go fighter multiclassed into ranger instead to get hunter's quarry, which works with flails, and fluff that extra damage into your character benefiting from dirty tactics.

Smythen
2010-01-11, 04:55 AM
Dont play 4.0...... :)

rezplz
2010-01-11, 06:52 AM
Smythen: Unfortunately, that isn't always an option ;P!


GoodbyeSoberDay: I like the ranger multiclass idea. Not as much damage as a sneak attack, but it applies against one person for the whole combat. Which basically means I'd immediately want to go after the toughest person and show how badass I am by taking him on myself, and forcing him to fight me. Which is something I can see mr. "I'm the most awesome guy ever" doing. So that works perfectly, and doesn't require me blowing a bunch of feats and fast-talking a DM to sneak attack with a heavy flail.


Now the how-to-"sneak attack"-with-a-flail is answered. I was hoping now to get some advice on how to do a few other things with this guy effectively. One thing that I heard about 4.0 is that it's hard to make a useless character, which I like, so I'm not too worried. But still, he'd definitely need to be trained in bluff at least. Ranger takes care of stealth. I'd probably want to get diplomacy, too... is there any way that's more effective to get trained in bluff and diplomacy without spending a feat on each one? Obviously I could just take a different class, but "fighter" is really supposed to be his main thing. The closest that I think I could go with a different class that has social skills would be a warlord, and that just doesn't fit this guy at all.

Kurald Galain
2010-01-11, 07:23 AM
GoodbyeSoberDay: I like the ranger multiclass idea. Not as much damage as a sneak attack, but it applies against one person for the whole combat.
I'm afraid not. Hunter's quarry from ranger MC lasts only until the end of your next turn.


is there any way that's more effective to get trained in bluff and diplomacy without spending a feat on each one?
Yes: backgrounds. Picking the right background (if your DM allows those in the first place) allows you to add certain skills to your class list.

On the whole, however, fighters aren't supposed to be good at skills, and certainly not at social skills. In other words, it'd take heavy investment in charisma points (to no other benefit) and skill training feats, and you'd still not be very good at bluff or diplomacy. If you want a heavily damaging and social character, your best bet is actually a rogue, not a fighter.

Alternatively, just write "I am very sociable" on your character sheet, and ignore the fact that you aren't actually trained in bluff.

Shardan
2010-01-11, 07:44 AM
Alternative Sneak Attack methods.

Wield a spiked shield off hand (counts as light blade, requires a feat)

Use a mace, pretend its a flail. (taking both sneak of shadows and ruthless efficiency feats.)

Add slaying action to get a second use of your sneak attack the turn you use it, action surge adds +3 to hit and shadow assassin PP ads +4 to hit and a 'nifty opponents take damage every time they miss you' trait

keep shuriken or daggers on hand and the quick draw feat to go stabbety on something then go back to what you were doing

Unfortunately, none of these ideas are perfect.

Optimystik
2010-01-11, 08:10 AM
Alternatively, just write "I am very sociable" on your character sheet, and ignore the fact that you aren't actually trained in bluff.

Followed by distracting your DM with shiny objects whenever he asks to see it. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: This is sig-worthy

rezplz
2010-01-11, 09:11 AM
I'm afraid not. Hunter's quarry from ranger MC lasts only until the end of your next turn.


Really? It says you can use it once per encounter, and in the hunter's quarry, it says it lasts until the end of the encounter, or the thing's dead...

Warrior of the wild: Once per encounter, you can use the ranger's hunter's quarry class feature.

Hunter's quarry: Once per turn as a minor action, you can designate the enemy nearest to you as your quarry.

Once per round, you deal extra damage to your quarry. The extra damage is based on your level. If you can make multiple attacks in a round, you decide which attack to apply the extra damage to after all the attacks are rolled.

The hunter's quarry effect remains active until the end of the encounter, until the quarry is defeated, or until you designate a different target as your quarry.

You can designate one enemy as your quarry at a time.

Kurald Galain
2010-01-11, 09:16 AM
Really?
Yes, really. This was covered in the first errata, within a week or two of the PHB's release. There's a 70-page PDF for free download on the WOTC site.

On the other hand, if your DM plays by the book instead of by the errata, then Warrior of the Wild becomes highly recommended to every striker or defender class.


EDIT: This is sig-worthy

You're welcome :smallbiggrin:

Theodoric
2010-01-11, 09:17 AM
Really? It says you can use it once per encounter, and in the hunter's quarry, it says it lasts until the end of the encounter, or the thing's dead...

Warrior of the wild: Once per encounter, you can use the ranger's hunter's quarry class feature.

Hunter's quarry: Once per turn as a minor action, you can designate the enemy nearest to you as your quarry.

Once per round, you deal extra damage to your quarry. The extra damage is based on your level. If you can make multiple attacks in a round, you decide which attack to apply the extra damage to after all the attacks are rolled.

The hunter's quarry effect remains active until the end of the encounter, until the quarry is defeated, or until you designate a different target as your quarry.

You can designate one enemy as your quarry at a time.
It's errataed (errata are available for free on the wizards DnD site). :smallwink:

Page 208: Add the following sentence to the end
of the second paragraph of the benefit section: “The
target you designate as your quarry remains your
quarry until the end of your next turn.”

rezplz
2010-01-11, 09:23 AM
Baaaaaaaah, errata. Well I guess I'd have to ask whatever DM I'm playing under if he uses errata. If he/she does, then it basically becomes a feat for an extra 1d6 damage once per combat. That seems kinda meh.

Oh and stealth training, guess that's something.

Theodoric
2010-01-11, 09:41 AM
Baaaaaaaah, errata. Well I guess I'd have to ask whatever DM I'm playing under if he uses errata. If he/she does, then it basically becomes a feat for an extra 1d6 damage once per combat. That seems kinda meh.
It's actually twice; untill the end of your next turn. Anyway, you shouldn't take MC feats just for a single ability etc. Multiclassing leads to plenty of other options.

rezplz
2010-01-11, 09:47 AM
It's actually twice; untill the end of your next turn. Anyway, you shouldn't take MC feats just for a single ability etc. Multiclassing leads to plenty of other options.

Ah. Thing is, I only WANT the single ability. D: Just a way to represent this character fighting really dirty. What other options does it lead to? I don't know how multiclassing works really in 4.0. Is it just more feats that get unlocked for you?

Kurald Galain
2010-01-11, 10:12 AM
Ah. Thing is, I only WANT the single ability. D: Just a way to represent this character fighting really dirty.
Check dragon magazine for some options, as well as martial power. Generally, however, you fight dirty by writing "I fight dirty" on your character sheet, no feats required. There's plenty of fighter powers that do e.g. daze, prone or extra damage on a hit.


What other options does it lead to? I don't know how multiclassing works really in 4.0. Is it just more feats that get unlocked for you?
Well... it opens up power swap feats. Generally, though, those aren't worth it (except if you're looking for certain specific combos). Overall, most characters do precisely take the MC feat for the single ability. Several (but not all) MC feats are among the best heroic feats in the books.

Dekkah
2010-01-11, 10:55 AM
Also, taking a multi-class feat open up the paragon path of that class. It can be usefull if you plan it you character devellopment when you create it.

Master_Rahl22
2010-01-11, 11:37 AM
Most people take MC feats for training in a skill they can't get, possibly the ability they get from it, and the ability to qualify for feats/PPs/items/whatever as the class they MC'd into. For example, my Dragonborn Sorcerer took the Fighter MC specifically to grab Draconic Arrogance from Martial Power that requires Fighter.

I agree with Kurald, you could just stick with Fighter and fluff forced movement, status effects, and extra damage as fighting dirty. Immobilized is you kneecapped a guy, dazed is a knee to the groin, forced movement is wrapping your flail around a limb and yanking, etc.

Kylarra
2010-01-11, 12:03 PM
It's not a fighter per se, but I have a character that would work almost perfectly with the fighting dirty idea, it does unfortunately only work with hammers (and maces, but those suck).

Warden with the Crippling Crush (PP) feat. Between Weight of Earth and Warden's Grasp, it's almost like tripping people constantly, assuming you think of slowing people as "tripping". Crippling Crush will give you CON to damage, so you're slowing and dealing [W]+STR+CON. It won't add up to as much damage as a sneak attack or quarry, but it's reliable and always on-ish.

Xallace
2010-01-11, 12:41 PM
Take advantage of the environment? Throw sand in some eyes, kick over a few tables, pull a rug out from under a guy, cut the rope holding the chandelier at the ceiling.

Also, if you take Spiked Chain Training (I do believe) from Dragon, your chain counts as both flail and light blade. You could refluff the chain as a regular old flail, play a rogue, multiclass some fighter and pick up some fighter-y flail / light blade feats. Or since by this point you'd be using Dragon, look at the hybrid rules if you don't mind things being a tad bit more complex. Hybrid-ize Rogue||Fighter, keep your light-blade-flail-chain, take powers that deal in status effects (from both sides) to emphasize dirtiness.

If you do go hybrid, I'd suggest between taking the fighter's armor prof. or Brutal Scoundrel as your hybrid options feat.

Dekkah
2010-01-11, 01:02 PM
Rezplz, I dont know what is your description of "fighting dirty". If it is doing big damage, my option might not interest you (even tough he still do decent damage), if it is to bug your enemies with status/force movement(control the battelfield), I have a character that might fit your needs.

------------------------------------
Race : Human
Class : Fighter (Tempest build) - played to level 3 so far
Background : Born under a bad sign (use highest stat for base HP) <_ this fit my background, might not fit yours.
Stats : STR : 18 (16+2), Con 11, DEX 16, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10.
Feats : Whip multiclass (wich give you whip profiency, and give the enemy -2 to hit one of your ally if you connect), flail expertise, Toughness

Power :
At-will : footwork lure - if you hit, you can shift and drag your enemy (in a flank position among other things)
At-will : dual strike : you hit 2 different enemies - let you mark+give whip penality to 2 enemies
At-will : Knockdown assault - low damage/target fortitude/trip, can be used with charge. With the whip reach, it can be serious trouble for melee only enemies if you block their path and they cant charge anyone else - since they are too close to charge you, they usually have to forfeit their attack to move toward you.
Encouter 1 : funeling fury : target 2 enemies + slide them 1 - good to rearrange battlefeild/move enemies for flank/open a path to move toward the rear enemies .
Daily 1 : Tempest dance : attack, shift, attack, shift, attack. And also have a bonus to damage on each strke if CA. I did a nice 35 damage at level 2 with this on a prone enemy.
Utility : Pass forward : just too good to pass up, good for mobility.
Encounter 3 : Sweeping blow : Melee 1, hit all adjacent enemies (mark all), nice little bonus to hit with flail type weapon (+ 1/2 str bonus to hit.).
---------------------------------------

The idea behind this character isnt damage (he have allies for that), even if he is better that he looks, but he act like a controller. He move around the battle field and piss off the enemies/DM (wich was laughing at first at the whips, but isnt anymore ;) ).
He have an very high to hit rate (+10 not accounting magic weapon) and reach. He also have decent defenses (except for will). He work best against multiples enemies, but he can manage solo as well.

If you dont like the whips and want more damage, I would go for the scourges (1D8 instead of 1D4) and lower Dex by 1 to raise con to 13 and take barbarian multi-class (instead of whip).
Maybe the spiked chain can work as well (with rogue multi-class).

Yakk
2010-01-11, 02:03 PM
Human Hybrid Fighter | Rogue
Level 1 Feats: Hybrid Talent (Tempest), Spiked Chain [Multiclass feat]
Stats: High Str and Dex.
18 str 12 con 16 dex 8 int 10 wis 12 cha

AC: 16 (leather)
Fort: 16
Reflex: 15
Will: 12

At-Wills: Dual Strike (fighter), Knockdown Assault (fighter), Clever Strike (rogue)

Everything else to taste.

Use your off-hand weapon more than your main-hand weapon when attacking, as you get +1 to hit and +2 to damage with the off-hand side of your spiked chain (recent errata makes the main-hand no longer count as off-handable).

Evard
2010-01-11, 02:38 PM
Hybrids are usually the best way to show 3.5 multiclassing.

In 3.5 multiclassing was you are majored (yes like you are a college student) in fighter and then you major in rogue and you know everything about both even if you majored in fighter for 10 levels and rogue for 2 levels. Like getting a degree then going back to school for another different degree.

In 4e multiclassing its like you majored in fighter and you take a couple classes in rogue. yeah you know some stuff but you are not an expert on it. I majored in science but i loved to sit in on history classes.

Its usually not best to try to convert a character in the first place but to convert the multiclassed characters is a pain due to the difference in how they learn their extra abilities so you never really get the full flavor.

Blackfang108
2010-01-11, 03:38 PM
I'd almost make your guy a Warlord: "Inspiring" Presence.

Instead of Inspiring your allies, shame them when they do not work up to your expectations. Use backgrounds to get the skills you need.

Think R Lee Ermey in Full Metal Jacket. "What's your malfunction, Private?"