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Kobold-Bard
2010-01-11, 12:15 PM
Could a Level 3 Wizard take Spell Mastery and Favoured Spell twice (so they can spontaneously cast arcane spells), and enter Ultimate Magus?

If yes would they gain double advancement of Wizard spells, since it is both their Prepared and Spontaneous casting class?


Thanks

K-B

DragoonWraith
2010-01-11, 12:26 PM
Spontaneous Divination would be much easier. A DM might potentially allow you to take UM to advance your Wizard spellcasting while getting some of the bonuses (add some spells from your spellbook to the list of spells you can cast spontaneously), but no sane DM would ever allow you to double-advance.

As for RAW? I'd say probably. It says "+1 spell level of existing ____ class", where Wizard is now both a spontaneous and prepared casting class, sooo... yeah, probably.

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-11, 12:28 PM
Spontaneous Divination would be much easier. A DM might potentially allow you to take UM to advance your Wizard spellcasting while getting some of the bonuses (add some spells from your spellbook to the list of spells you can cast spontaneously), but no sane DM would ever allow you to double-advance.

As for RAW? I'd say probably. It says "+1 spell level of existing ____ class", where Wizard is now both a spontaneous and prepared casting class, sooo... yeah, probably.

I know no-one would or should ever allow such a thing, a question in the Q&A thread just made me curious.

Zom B
2010-01-11, 12:38 PM
After getting the answer to that Q&A question, it got me wondering if Ultimate Magus is the only PrC that dual-advances arcane classes. Or if there is a way to cast both divine and arcane spells and use Mystic Theurge.

Tavar
2010-01-11, 12:41 PM
I believe that there's a way to get arcane spell slots for divine casters. You could use that.

Optimystik
2010-01-11, 01:19 PM
After getting the answer to that Q&A question, it got me wondering if Ultimate Magus is the only PrC that dual-advances arcane classes.

It isn't - Warlocks are arcane too, so Eldritch Theurge is a dual-arcane class as well.

sonofzeal
2010-01-11, 01:32 PM
I believe the only RAW objection might be the whole "bonuses from the same source don't stack" thing. Nice idea, though!

DragoonWraith
2010-01-11, 01:37 PM
+1 level is not a "bonus", though, so that rule doesn't apply.

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-11, 01:37 PM
I believe the only RAW objection might be the whole "bonuses from the same source don't stack" thing. Nice idea, though!

Does that apply to Spell Progression?

Edit: :smallannoyed: So does someone train you people to be ninjas, or are you just born that way :smalltongue:

sonofzeal
2010-01-11, 01:45 PM
+1 level is not a "bonus", though, so that rule doesn't apply.
Hmmm.... possibly. A DM might still make that call and be with at least some foundation.

Another possible objection might be that Wizard is not a "spontaneous arcane casting class", even if you have a few spontaneous wizard spells. It's the feats that do that, not the class; the class itself is still prepared.

Zom B
2010-01-11, 03:00 PM
But the prestige class doesn't say "must be a member of a spontaneously casting arcane class." It says things like "Must be able to spontaneously cast arcane spells of 2nd level or higher."

If the "from a spellbook" prepositional phrase had not appeared in the Ultimate Magus' entry requirements, a Sorcerer with Arcane Preparation would be in Bonus Spellcaster Level City. Somebody was on the ball in preventing that one.

sonofzeal
2010-01-11, 03:17 PM
But the prestige class doesn't say "must be a member of a spontaneously casting arcane class." It says things like "Must be able to spontaneously cast arcane spells of 2nd level or higher."

If the "from a spellbook" prepositional phrase had not appeared in the Ultimate Magus' entry requirements, a Sorcerer with Arcane Preparation would be in Bonus Spellcaster Level City. Somebody was on the ball in preventing that one.
I didn't say you couldn't get in. Clearly, you can. However, we're talking about what you gain from levelling up in it. Both the text and the table refer to "a spontaneously casting arcane class", which Wizard is not.

You'd still get full advancement and actual class features though.


(edit) I'm referring specifically to the feat-entry here. Spontaneous Divination might still cut it, but I believe most DMs would still consider the class itself "prepared".

DragoonWraith
2010-01-11, 04:13 PM
I was referring to Spont. Div., and yes, no DM is going to allow it, it's a question of RAW. By RAW, Spontaneous Divination would seem to qualify the Wizard as a spontaneous casting class.

sonofzeal
2010-01-11, 04:21 PM
I was referring to Spont. Div., and yes, no DM is going to allow it, it's a question of RAW. By RAW, Spontaneous Divination would seem to qualify the Wizard as a spontaneous casting class.
One could argue such. One could also argue that the class itself is still Prepped, but with a class feature allowing for limited spontaneousness. I think RAW would land on the latter, but YMMV.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-11, 06:32 PM
Or you could what, take a level each of wizard and sorc(Or your favorite replacement arcane classes) and grab Sanctum Spell?

Technically, you now can cast 2nd level spells from both.

I need to look into this more.

Longcat
2010-01-11, 06:54 PM
Technically, there are many way to enter Ultimate Magus. And some of them include only one casting class.

However, no sane DM would allow you to apply the CL bonus twice.

Brendan
2010-01-11, 06:54 PM
if you can get into the prc, then maybe the caster level of your spontaneous spells are given a bonus?

nargbop
2010-01-11, 09:19 PM
OP : This idea is hilarious, and if there's a completely stoned DM somewhere who will let you do it, you should also build a Commoner Linear Accelerator.

DragoonWraith
2010-01-11, 09:27 PM
One could argue such. One could also argue that the class itself is still Prepped, but with a class feature allowing for limited spontaneousness. I think RAW would land on the latter, but YMMV.
I don't think it would. There is nowhere in the Wizard's description that says "The Wizard is a prepared spellcasting class" - it just says that the Wizard must prepare his spells ahead of time. The word "spontaneous" isn't even present anywhere in the Sorcerer's entry, for that matter, it only says that the Sorcerer "does not have to prepare his spells ahead of time as a Wizard does".

Therefore, the definition of a "prepared spellcasting class" would be "a class whose spells are prepared ahead of time", while a spontaneous casting class" would be "a class whose spells can be cast without preparing them ahead of time". A Wizard with Spontaneous Divination is both of those things.

FlamingKobold
2010-01-11, 09:41 PM
On the same note, does the arcane disciple base class (from dragon 311) qualify for mystic theurge? Because level 35 cleric casting at level 20 would be pretty sweet.

sonofzeal
2010-01-11, 10:56 PM
I don't think it would. There is nowhere in the Wizard's description that says "The Wizard is a prepared spellcasting class" - it just says that the Wizard must prepare his spells ahead of time. The word "spontaneous" isn't even present anywhere in the Sorcerer's entry, for that matter, it only says that the Sorcerer "does not have to prepare his spells ahead of time as a Wizard does".

Therefore, the definition of a "prepared spellcasting class" would be "a class whose spells are prepared ahead of time", while a spontaneous casting class" would be "a class whose spells can be cast without preparing them ahead of time". A Wizard with Spontaneous Divination is both of those things.
Agreed the terms are not explicitly defined anywhere. Still, I believe I can use RAW to demonstrate that a Wizard with that class feature would not be a "spontaneous spellcasting class".

First, note that Spontaneous Divination bears little similarity to "true" spontaneous classes like Bards or Sorcerers. Instead, the mechanism it uses is that of Clerics and Druids. Both of those are traditionally considered Prepared classes, but both have a class feature called "Spontaneous Casting". All three classes still prepare spells in the morning, and then get a limited substitution that they can perform on the fly for particular spells.

Now, you may try to argue that Clerics are Druids are thus "spontaneous spellcasting classes". If so, I would point you to this section of UA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm), which explicitly "converts the cleric and druid into spontaneous spellcasters". This firmly establishes that they are currently not spontaneous spellcasters, by a strict RAW meaning.

We're thus left without a firm definition of what exactly makes a spontaneous and prepared spellcaster, but at least we've clarified a boundary issue. Cleric and Druid are not spontaneous spellcasters. Thus, a Wizard with Spontaneous Divination is also not a spontaneous spellcaster, however much one might think that your particular definition fits.

Kobold-Bard
2010-01-12, 03:56 AM
On the same note, does the arcane disciple base class (from dragon 311) qualify for mystic theurge? Because level 35 cleric casting at level 20 would be pretty sweet.

No. MT and it's kin have to advance an actual spell advancement class rather than another PrC that says "+1 advancement...".

My first ever thread on this site was me getting excited because I thought using True Necromancer to advance Mystic Theurge casting (2xArcane and 2xDivine casting every level ftw) was original. It was in that thread that I was introduced to Pun-Pun and I've never been the same since :smalltongue:

@Zeal: UA isn't Core so it doesn't count :smallamused: [/flaming troll]