Clarify a 4e Rule for Me?

[ondonaflash]

4e doesn't have a handy dandy Online SRD document to read from, so I won't be directly quoting, but something that struck me when I was reading the wizards description seemed odd. For daily spells and utility spells, you scribe two daily and utility spells into your spellbook each time you gain access to one of those spells, and from this list you select the one you will be using that day?

Also there's some sort of restriction where spells are removed from your spellbook.

What is the intent of this rule and how precisely does it work? Without directly quoting the copyrighted text please.

[Yuki Akuma]

Every time any other class would get a daily power, you get two. At the beginning of the day you pick as many daily powers as other characters would know normally to be your daily powers for the day. So say everyone else has 3 daily powers. You have six, but you can only pick three (any three) to 'know' for the day.

When replacing powers like everyone else gets to, I think you only get to replace one, but I'm not entirely sure.

[Kurald Galain]

For daily spells and utility spells, you scribe two daily and utility spells into your spellbook each time you gain access to one of those spells, and from this list you select the one you will be using that day?
Yes. For each spell level that has daily or utility spells, you select two spells. After each extended rest, you pick one spell from each such spell level to memorize.


Also there's some sort of restriction where spells are removed from your spellbook.
If you retrain spells, they vanish from your spellbook.


What is the intent of this rule and how precisely does it work? Without directly quoting the copyrighted text please.
The intent is to give the wizard a bit more versatility. In practice it rarely matters: either you picked a good spell and a poor one, and stick with the former; or you picked two equally good ones and swap them out every day because it's fun to use a different power than yesterday.

[ondonaflash]

This seems like a silly rule.

[Leolo]

It is usefull if you know what kind of opponent you will have to face.

For example if you know that your opponents will have fire resistance fire spells are less usefull.

There are some nice tricks to get this information via rituals, skills or simple talk to someone.

[Yuki Akuma]

This seems like a silly rule.

Why? It's no different than, say... spellcasting in all previous editions of the game.

It was designed to make Wizards feel a little more... Wizardy.

[Theodoric]

This seems like a silly rule.
It is slightly silly, but it is evocative of the way the previous edition's Wizard class worked. Nothing is ever right, isn't it? :smallconfused:

[ondonaflash]

Not gonna lie, I've never been a huge fan of Vancian magic.

[Yuki Akuma]

Not gonna lie, I've never been a huge fan of Vancian magic.

Play something other than a wizard then.

[ondonaflash]

Yeah, I usually play a rogue, but I'm DMing a 4e, so I needed to know what exactly the rule meant.

[Theodoric]

Not gonna lie, I've never been a huge fan of Vancian magic.
Me neither, really. I mostly ignore this mechanic, as it doesn't really add that much (I'm not very nostalgic towards 3.5). The Arcane Power sourcebook does have an implement that does roughly the same (with encounter powers), but it actually works quite well.

[Leolo]

What exactly does not work with the spellbook spells?

It is usefull. You can choose between your most powerfull spells and prepare the best for upcomming situations.

In fact wizards benefit hugely from this, because they could use divination rituals.

[pasko77]

Every time any other class would get a daily power, you get two. At the beginning of the day you pick as many daily powers as other characters would know normally to be your daily powers for the day. So say everyone else has 3 daily powers. You have six, but you can only pick three (any three) to 'know' for the day.

Not entirely correct, since powers are defined by level.
So if you have a 5 level character, you can memorize one of your two first level dailies, and one of your fifth level dailies.

Yes, it's a detail.



When replacing powers like everyone else gets to, I think you only get to replace one, but I'm not entirely sure.

IIRC, you replace both.

[rayne_dragon]

In practice I've found that I usually stick with one of the spells and never bother with the other one. I do like the feature, however, as it gives me the option of using a different spell for fun if I want to.

[Kurald Galain]

What exactly does not work with the spellbook spells?
Well, (1) you generally have no idea what you will be facing anyway, even when using divination rituals; (2) you generally will face multiple threads during the adventuring day, so if the first encounter is e.g. fire resistant you can always save Flaming Sphere for the second; and (3) there are actually very few situational powers, i.e. spells that work well against one kind of enemy but not another.

So mostly the benefits of the spellbook feature are neglegible, unless you have a means of swapping spells during an encounter, such as any magical tome, the tome mastery feature, or a mnemo staff.

Regardless of that, it is actually fun to pick different dailies today than you did yesterday.

[Leolo]

Well, (1) you generally have no idea what you will be facing anyway, even when using divination rituals;

Why not?

Walk along the burned ruins of a village, searching for corpses and the evil guys that killed everyone: You may look through the eyes of one killed man and see his murderer via a ritual.

Walk to the dark and horrible wood of pain with footprints of a monster. Your ranger may find out what monster it is.

Talk to the townsfolk to find out what monsters are living in the hills to where you are traveling.

There are plenty of ways to find out what will most likely stands in your way. It is never certain, of course.



(2) you generally will face multiple threads during the adventuring day, so if the first encounter is e.g. fire resistant you can always save Flaming Sphere for the second;


Sure, but that does not mean it wouldn't be better to have a good spell at hand in the first encounter. And of course you do not know how many encounters you will face.

And if the second would be another type of monster.



(3) there are actually very few situational powers, i.e. spells that work well against one kind of enemy but not another.


I would count 7 of the first 8 daily power spells of the players handbook as situational. Maybe only 6 of 8, because immunity against sleep is not that common. But it is situational.

For example, if i know i will fight a lvl appropriate solo monster with fire resistance...is it really a good idea to learn fireball today? It may be a good idea if i would fight a lot of minions of course. If i am fighting some guys that may teleport arround, is web that helpfull?

Stinking cloud, Acid Arrow, Icy Grasp, Flaming sphere, Ice Terrain - all are doing poison, cold or fire damage.

Wizard Spells are situational. And even without that, a small benefit is better than no benefit.

The ability is more than just a way to "do something different just for fun". It is usefull.

[The J Pizzel]

I know the point has been made, but I'll add my two cents anyway.

I've played 4E with two different players playing wizzies. The first player would choose his two daily and utility powers to be completely different from each other. So he would have chosen something like Sleep (control) and Acid Arrow (damage). Then for his utility powers he would have chosen Shield (combat related) and Feather Fall (not quite as combat related, but still could be). So he took the point of view as "you never know what you're going to need".

The other player did the opposite. He choose two damage spells and two combat spells. Every. Single. Time. Neither player is really wrong.

In fact, like most people have said above me, the first player generally prepped the same spells each day, but he also made a concious effort to prepare for combat using his versatility as a wizard. For instance, he knew that they would be scaling some cliffs to find the cave so he prepped Feather Fall instead of Shield. And coincidentally, they fought some griffons who tried to knock them off said cliff.

So, I would think it's all in how you play that makes the spellbook system useless or not.

[Kurald Galain]

Walk along the burned ruins of a village, searching for corpses and the evil guys that killed everyone: You may look through the eyes of one killed man and see his murderer via a ritual.
Okay, and how does this help you select spells?


And if the second would be another type of monster.
True enough, but the DMG recommends against using the same monster over and over again. This is not just about wizards, either: if the party has a warlock focusing on (say) fire damage, then it would be a rather unfriendly DM to send wave after wave of fire resitant monsters at the party.


I would count 7 of the first 8 daily power spells of the players handbook as situational.
Really?

We're working under a different definition here. I would call a spell "situational" if it usually isn't very effective, but is excellent in a particular uncommon situation. The mere fact that energy resistance exists does not make every single energy spell situational. Even aside from that, energy resistance is (1) uncommon at best, (2) usually pretty low, and (3) bypassed by numerous items and feats.

3E Hold Person is situational, in that it only works on humanoids. Feather Fall is situational, in that most adventures are not in an area with hazardous cliffs. Fireball is not situational, in that pretty much everything you can find can be torched with it (and in 4E, it even works underwater). A spell isn't situational if it is useful in the majority of encounters.

So of the eight L1 and L5 dailies, only one can be called situational: stinking cloud, because a common monster type, undead, is outright immune to its damage type (and even then, it blocks LOS). This is not just semantics either: I don't need divination to know that e.g. Web and Sleep will be useful in pretty much every adventuring day, because they're not situational.

But there is a more important distinction: certain wizard spells are great (such as sleep and flaming sphere), and others are poor (such as acid arrow and fireball). If you have chosen a great spell and a poor spell for the level, you don't need divination to figure out that the great spell is always going to be better (if you have flaming sphere, it's irrelevant whether your spellbook has acid arrow too). If you have chosen two great spells, it doesn't matter which you pick for the day, because either will be good. If you have chosen two poor spells, then you probably should reconsider playing a wizard.

[Leolo]

Okay, and how does this help you select spells?

I see a lot of kobold guys burning the village down? Spells with an area of effect may be a good choice to get rid of the possible minions.

I see a young dragon burning the village down? Spells with an area of effect are less usefull, other spells may be more usefull.

It is only a question of the situation. To bring another simple example on the table: If my adventure is arround some orks attacking a village and taking some people ransom i will most likely fight again against them.

Your definition of a situational power sounds better than mine, of course. But wouldn't you agree that it is a benefit to have the right power at hand even if it occures only sometimes?

All i wanted to say above is that this is not only a "you can change your powers for fun and diversity" option. It is actually usefull because it gaves you the possibility to be prepared for more situations.

And Acid Arrow / Flaming Sphere is actually a good example, because there are many situations where the "poor" spell is simple better than the "strong".

Fighting some thiefling guy with fire resi 7-8? Flaming Sphere will be worse than your at will attacks.

[Freylorn]

The problem here is that a lot of spells are very, VERY utilitarian.

A dragon burned down a town? Sleep will do nicely here!
A bunch of orcs razed a town? Odds are they'll have some sort of head honcho with them - Sleep should do nicely here!
A crapton of kobolds torched a town? If there's tons of 'em, odds are they're minions and a nice enlarge'd encounter/at will will do just fine. No daily required.

[Optimystik]

Okay, and how does this help you select spells?

There's a number of ways. If the victim's killer was stealthy, you might prepare Glitterdust, whereas if he was a brute, you might prepare Sleep instead. If you see the killer's assassin's guild symbol in the vision your ritual shows you, you can prepare Disguise Self to infiltrate their ranks for evidence. If you couldn't see the victim's killer at all, True Seeing might be appropriate, and so on.

[Sipex]

My current wizard uses this with utility powers a lot.

He usually keeps different types of powers around so if he suspects to be in battle (ie: party is travelling, hunting something, etc) he'll prepare more battle oriented spells.

If we're going to stay in town, investigate, etc then he prepares spells for that sort of thing (ie: +diplmacy or whatever, not sure what spells he has at the current moment)

[Leolo]

The problem here is that a lot of spells are very, VERY utilitarian.

A dragon burned down a town? Sleep will do nicely here!
A bunch of orcs razed a town? Odds are they'll have some sort of head honcho with them - Sleep should do nicely here!
A crapton of kobolds torched a town? If there's tons of 'em, odds are they're minions and a nice enlarge'd encounter/at will will do just fine. No daily required.

At least most of the spells aren't useless even if a situation let them be not the optimal solution. If i had to fight a guy with high will defense and low reflex defense i would rather target the last one. If the enemy has some ways to get rid of status effects i would rather avoid using them.

I may be fine even if my choice for this day is not optimal. But hey...it is only the question if this class feature is a benefit at all.

[Kurald Galain]

Fighting some thiefling guy with fire resi 7-8? Flaming Sphere will be worse than your at will attacks.
My point is that if you're fighting this tiefling guy, you use flaming sphere in the next encounter. Whereas if you're fighting fire-resistant enemies all day long, (and at least one party member relies primarily on fire powers), then your DM is not being very nice.

They are daily spells, so the relevant question isn't whether they're useful in every encounter. The question is whether they will be useful in one encounter during the day.

Yeah, fire resist is reasonably common, and that's a strike against fire powers; any other resist is pretty rare, though. For the same reason, radiant vuln is common, so that's a plus for radiant powers; any other vuln is pretty rare except if you have e.g. elemental foible.


There's a number of ways. If the victim's killer was stealthy, you might prepare Glitterdust, whereas if he was a brute, you might prepare Sleep instead.
Personally, I would prepare Sleep in either case.


If you see the killer's assassin's guild symbol in the vision your ritual shows you, you can prepare Disguise Self to infiltrate their ranks for evidence.
That's actually a different matter: do you want a combat spell that will almost always be useful (e.g. Wizard's Escape) or do you want a utility spell that will almost always be useful (e.g. Disguise Self, although it's also available in hat and in potion form). This is a matter of preference; but I can pretty much guarantee that regardless of what you'll be facing during the day, WE will be useful in one way, and DS will be useful in another way.

Incidentally, this is why wizards are such a fun class: they probably have the best utility powers in the book, hands down.

[Leolo]

My point is that if you're fighting this tiefling guy, you use flaming sphere in the next encounter.

In fact this could be true, and it will most likely.

But you could also die in this current encounter, because this is the big evil guy and wants to kill someone.

The question is not if you could use the flaming sphere in the next encounter it is if you will need something usefull in this encounter. Or - if it wouldn't be better to have something more usefull in this encounter than the other usefull things you do have.


Personally, I would prepare Sleep in either case.

Sleep is one of the best spells in the game, so yes - this is plausible.

On the other hand it is not the best spell in every situation. Fighting a group of bugbears without a leader? Sleep may be good, but it is not the best option. Fighting some assassins that ambush you? The lost round until they fall unconcious may be your last round.

And it is only one example. Could you find a lvl 5 spell that has to be prepared in either case?

[Freylorn]

The default level 5 spell used to be Stinking Cloud, although that has a giant weak spot in the form of undead.

There's some nice new ones, from what I gather - stuff like Grasp of the Grave, I think it was called?

So yeah. Grab those two, you're set.

[Yakk]

They are daily spells, so the relevant question isn't whether they're useful in every encounter. The question is whether they will be useful in one encounter during the day.
No, the question is, will they be useful in an encounter where you will need them during that day?

There are encounters you will fight that don't require burning your daily spells. There are encounters that, unless you burn your daily spells, you have a decent chance of losing. It is the preparation for those 'hard' fights that wizards preparing spells can exploit.

If you are tracking down a red dragon, swapping flaming sphere out is a good thing -- even if it has icicle minions, because the red dragon will probably be the hard fight.

Note that you can seriously cheese this out by asking, using hand of fate, which spell you should prepare on a given day. Thus forcing the DM to determine, based off of the encounters they prepared, what spell would be best. :-)

That particular trick doesn't kick in until hand of fate gets cheap enough to use regularly (mid paragon or so).

[Artanis]

Note that you can seriously cheese this out by asking, using hand of fate, which spell you should prepare on a given day. Thus forcing the DM to determine, based off of the encounters they prepared, what spell would be best. :-)

Unless the DM decides to reach across the table and smack you instead :smalltongue:

[Yakk]

Ok ok, it only works over the next hour.

But it works great if you plan on delving into a dungeon right after your extended rest.

It is a perfectly valid use of the ritual. (Hand of fate is a ridiculously strong ritual)

[Shardan]

It also lets you play multiple dailies. Period. Instead of only changing at the level, you can change every day back and forth. Variety for the fun of it is a pretty good thing. I've heard of people wanting to house rule other classes to do the same thing. Power wise, its a minor boost, but the fun of doing all these different things.. trying new powers out for the heck of it without being locked into it for the entire level.

[TheEmerged]

Sleep is one of the best spells in the game, so yes - this is plausible.

Dangerously close to a thread derail but... I'm personally surprised Sleep has survived as many rule updates as it has. The more theorybuilds I make myself and the players submit to me, and the more I'm seeing players keeping Sleep and "replacing" higher leveled dailies at the paragon/epic tiers, the more obvious that's becoming.

On topic? Others have explained the rules. In practice, at least at the levels we've actually played in actual sessions (we're in the middle of the Heroic levels right now, able to play about once a month), the wizard is just going with the 'main' choice and almost never swapping. I've toyed with allowing easier swapping (especially for the utility powers, which aren't usually that overpowering) but so far nothing works quite right for me.