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View Full Version : Military blockade around a megadungeon?



ken-do-nim
2010-01-12, 10:54 AM
Take a well-known locale of pure evil like Rappan Athuk. Why would the government just tolerate its existence? If they can't invade and neutralize the place, shouldn't they at least blockade it? I'm thinking maybe any party wishing to adventure in such a place must pass through military clearance. Thoughts?

Doc Roc
2010-01-12, 10:56 AM
Because classically, fantasy governments are paper thin, and completely incompetent, trapped in pathetic low-level medieval stasis by plot shackles.

Teddy
2010-01-12, 10:57 AM
Take a well-known locale of pure evil like Rappan Athuk. Why would the government just tolerate its existence? If they can't invade and neutralize the place, shouldn't they at least blockade it? I'm thinking maybe any party wishing to adventure in such a place must pass through military clearance. Thoughts?

That requires a stable government with a large organized military and, most importantly, a well organized supply machine.

EDIT: Well, the opposite to the system presented above...

Closak
2010-01-12, 10:58 AM
Because governments are stupid duh!

They are also greedy, and a barricade would cost money to maintain.

dsmiles
2010-01-12, 10:58 AM
Evil Overlord: "I think, therefore I have minions teleporting in food and supplies, and throwing our waste into a wall of fire."

Blockades only keep people out, not in. Especially in anything other than a metropolis level city with high level characters in it. Most national governments would rather hire mrecenaries to go in and die (because they won't have to pay them). And then they hire the competent adventurers after they gauge the power level of said dungeon.

Samb
2010-01-12, 11:00 AM
If so-called evil kingdom is not activily disrupting my empire, why would I waste resources to curtail it? Answer: I wouldn't.

Or they pay me more money than I would have to spend on keeping them in check, so it works out better for me to turn a blind eye.

All this is from years of playing Civ and alpha centuri.

Teddy
2010-01-12, 11:04 AM
If so-called evil kingdom is not activily disrupting my empire, why would I waste resources to curtail it? Answer: I wouldn't.

Or they pay me more money than I would have to spend on keeping them in check, so it works out better for me to turn a blind eye.

All this is from yeard of playing Civ and alpha centuri.

Why not make them pay money, and then kill them with their own money?

sobebop
2010-01-12, 11:07 AM
As some have said, it comes down to resources. There is alot of territory to cover and said empire can not rule it all, unless they are making a point to do so.

They evil area exists for the same reason we still have priates sailing the seas in 2010, the same reason there are meth labs in every city. I think you see where im going here.

Unchecked evil is ok, as long as its taking place over there >>>>>>>>>.

Samb
2010-01-12, 11:21 AM
Why not make them pay money, and then kill them with their own money?

How did that saying go?
You can shave a lamb many times, but you can only skin it once.

Teddy
2010-01-12, 11:32 AM
How did that saying go?
You can shave a lamb many times, but you can only skin it once.

"Give me half of your gold and I won't hire mercenaries to kill you and take your land."
"Sure, don't kill me."
"Haha, now I'm going to hire mercenaries to take your land with your money, and you can't aford to defend yourself."

Well, a war does spoil the land a bit, but there is the possibility of expanding your land a lot. The biggest problem is the others ganging up on you because you are a backstabbing bastard. That extra gold and land is going to serve you well now...

Radar
2010-01-12, 12:17 PM
"Give me half of your gold and I won't hire mercenaries to kill you and take your land."
"Sure, don't kill me."
"Haha, now I'm going to hire mercenaries to take your land with your money, and you can't aford to defend yourself."

Well, a war does spoil the land a bit, but there is the possibility of expanding your land a lot. The biggest problem is the others ganging up on you because you are a backstabbing bastard. That extra gold and land is going to serve you well now...
Being percieved as a backstabbing bastard is a hefty price for a piece of land.

The other thing is, that no empire can be infinitely large without serious complications. The biggest empires in our history rised and fell within one or two generations (see Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan). Those which were quite stable, were build slowly over a course of centuries and had to struggle with constant uprisings, raveging corruption (the bigger the territory, the weaker control over it) and so on. It is more beneficial to impose dependency on your neighbours, then to force them into submission.

And this is just the long-term problem. Short-term problem is to establish a working administration and it takes time. You either have to rely on local figures, to rule the land for you (you risk being cheated by them) or put one of your loyal servants in place - he'd be a foraigner, so locals won't accept him, unless forced to. That leeds to imposing your rule by constant military occupation and this cost a whole lot.

BRC
2010-01-12, 12:23 PM
Depending on the nature of the dungeon, some dungeons (Like you're standard "Tomb full of Undead" the government may just seal up by sending in a few guards to clear out the entrance, then collapse it.

bosssmiley
2010-01-12, 12:25 PM
The biggest empires in our history rose and fell within one or two generations (see Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan).

Counterpoint: Achaimenid/Parthian/Sassanian Persia, Rome, the Russian Empire, China, etc, etc, ad nauseum...

Why not blockade a megadungeon? Because cost/benefit. Maintaining an army in the field (especially during harvest) costs more, and is a lot more hassle, than rebuilding a couple of knocked-over villages a year and sending in adventurers on a "You keep what you loot" payment system.

Radar
2010-01-12, 12:39 PM
Counterpoint: Achaimenid/Parthian/Sassanian Persia, Rome, the Russian Empire, China, etc, etc, ad nauseum...
(...)
Those which were quite stable, were build slowly over a course of centuries and had to struggle with constant uprisings, raveging corruption (the bigger the territory, the weaker control over it) and so on.
I might have been unprecise there tough, true.

It is to note, that stable empires all had a common characteristic: they were maintained by constant military occupation and it's not quite cost-efficient.

J.Gellert
2010-01-12, 12:41 PM
Yes, because every fantasy government wants trouble with the local epic necromancer lich.

I can list 20 reasons, but you can figure some out yourself. Why don't "real" governments deal with crime lords, drug dealers, weapon sellers, and the mafia?

Teddy
2010-01-12, 12:54 PM
Being percieved as a backstabbing bastard is a hefty price for a piece of land.

Well, the last line was kind of an double entendre sarcasm-wise. You will have need for all the gold and productive land you can get when you've enraged half the world far enough to attack you, but you will certainly fail even if you optimize the use of said resources. I know perfectly well that being a backstabber won't serve you at all on the international political arena.

Person_Man
2010-01-12, 01:22 PM
Also, remember the lesson of the Great Wall of China. Various dynasties spent hundreds of years building it to block invasions by various factions to the north. And then an invading army just bribed a general to open a gate. Defensive structures are extremely expensive to build, and are limited by the abilities and morality of the people who guard them.

LibraryOgre
2010-01-12, 03:05 PM
We have top men working on it now.
Who?
Top. Men.

Choco
2010-01-12, 03:22 PM
As some have said, it comes down to resources. There is alot of territory to cover and said empire can not rule it all, unless they are making a point to do so.

They evil area exists for the same reason we still have priates sailing the seas in 2010, the same reason there are meth labs in every city. I think you see where im going here.

Unchecked evil is ok, as long as its taking place over there >>>>>>>>>.

100% true right there, especially that last part :smallbiggrin:

Chances are that unless the residents of said evil dungeons are on the top list of threats the country has against it, then they are ignored. If you were king and decided where to send your very limited troops, would you send them to blockade the evil epic necromancer in his vast dungeon even though his minions rarely trouble you or would you send them to the border you share with a longtime rival nation who's king has been getting all up in your grill lately?

Sure, the local government may know that the evil epic necromancer in that dungeon is probably just biding his time until he can emerge and destroy the world, but they got bigger problems to worry about RIGHT FRIGGIN NOW and they can deal with him when he becomes their biggest threat. Yes I know it is short sighted, but people have always been this way and always will be.

Subotei
2010-01-12, 03:24 PM
Easiest way to deal with it would be to spread rumours of the fabulous wealth to be found there so that groups of idiots adventurers destroy the place for you.

And tax them on the way out.

Hurlbut
2010-01-12, 03:25 PM
Depending on the nature of the dungeon, some dungeons (Like you're standard "Tomb full of Undead" the government may just seal up by sending in a few guards to clear out the entrance, then collapse it.Right, here's a different look; a megadungeon, for most part, wouldn't be *entirely* 2d. It's easy to blockade a castle or town if you have a big enough army than a megadungeon. A megadungeon won't have just one entrance, nor all of the entrances will be conventional and always on surface. Plus mages/clerics can bring in their own supplies inside the megadungeon. Magic will circumvent the blockade. :smallamused:

Lamech
2010-01-12, 03:42 PM
General: Okay soldiers we are going to blockade this dungeon of the evil wizard. We shoot anything that comes out.
Soldier: Umm... can't wizards summon demons and stuff that we can't hurt.
General: Not if we get a lot of crits...
Soldier: Well see, I did the math and...
General: Hmm... math major are you, did you go to college? 'Cause if you did that you'd be a high level wizard.
Soldier: Well, umm... can't the wizard just teleport out? I mean wizard and all.
General: Err... the blockade makes it a high positive energy area. Makes teleports dangerous.
Soldier: Isn't there also plane shift? And invisiblity? And polymorph? And can't fireballs kill us in a few shots? I mean he could turn into a dragon and scatter all of us in 6 seconds flat.

And thats why megadungeons arn't blockaded.

The Glyphstone
2010-01-12, 04:22 PM
General: Okay soldiers we are going to blockade this dungeon of the evil wizard. We shoot anything that comes out.
Soldier: Umm... can't wizards summon demons and stuff that we can't hurt.
General: Not if we get a lot of crits...
Soldier: Well see, I did the math and...
General: Hmm... math major are you, did you go to college? 'Cause if you did that you'd be a high level wizard.
Soldier: Well, umm... can't the wizard just teleport out? I mean wizard and all.
General: Err... the blockade makes it a high positive energy area. Makes teleports dangerous.
Soldier: Isn't there also plane shift? And invisiblity? And polymorph? And can't fireballs kill us in a few shots? I mean he could turn into a dragon and scatter all of us in 6 seconds flat.

General: Oh yeah? Any other super evil wizard tricks that we need to worry about, Mr. Genius Smart Guy?
Soldier: Just one. Mindrape. *Kills general*.

Thatguyoverther
2010-01-12, 04:31 PM
Evil Overlord: "I think, therefore I have minions teleporting in food and supplies, and throwing our waste into a wall of fire."

Blockades only keep people out, not in. Especially in anything other than a metropolis level city with high level characters in it. Most national governments would rather hire mrecenaries to go in and die (because they won't have to pay them). And then they hire the competent adventurers after they gauge the power level of said dungeon.

I like this idea. Any government is going to want to spend the least amount of money on hiring the adventures so they'll do there best to make sure that they hire a group just barely capable of clearing it out. Hence why the CR of everything in the dungeon matches up the characters' level.

Tackyhillbillu
2010-01-12, 06:13 PM
I like this idea. Any government is going to want to spend the least amount of money on hiring the adventures so they'll do there best to make sure that they hire a group just barely capable of clearing it out. Hence why the CR of everything in the dungeon matches up the characters' level.

Actually, the ideal situation for the government is that they are a little bit under CR. That way they are constantly using up resources, requiring them to return to town, sell their loot, and stimulate the local economy. Then, they and the BBEG can kill each other off. Government collects the loot as taxes, and never has to pay the Adventurers.