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Drakevarg
2010-01-12, 08:29 PM
I keep hearing about how the spell Locate City can be used explosively, but I always here it by way of Noodle Incident.

What IS it, anyway?

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-12, 08:31 PM
You apply metamagics to the Locate City spell that causes it to first- Deal a tiny amount of damage and Second- blast anything damaged to the edge of the spell. Several miles away.

The Glyphstone
2010-01-12, 08:33 PM
Don't forget the 'best' part, that everyone flung takes additional damage based on how far they were moved before impacting on something.

The primary counterargument for it is that since it specifies a circle and not a sphere, no target inside is flung more than an inch or two. Not sure if that was ever debunked and/or solved though.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-12, 08:35 PM
Anyone got a link to the Primary Discussion?

deuxhero
2010-01-12, 08:39 PM
It's an old trick.

That said, you can avoid the primary issue (people indoors hit the walls, then stop) by subing in fell drain (no save, negative level to everyone in the zone, everything with 1 or less HD becomes a wight and starts the Apocalypse)

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-12, 08:42 PM
Hmm... Here's a thought. How can we adapt this to a useful purpose? Such as killing all the vermin in a city to prevent plague spreading but not harming the city inhabitants/animals?

Rainbownaga
2010-01-12, 08:46 PM
Hmm... Here's a thought. How can we adapt this to a useful purpose? Such as killing all the vermin in a city to prevent plague spreading but not harming the city inhabitants/animals?

The problem is that rats and kittens are the same "type" meaning that anything that could kill off plague rats is likely to kill fluffy as well.

Edit: Additionally, are there even any spells or metamagic effects that allow you to chose a specific type you want to kill? I know there are anti-undead, but are there any anti animal or anti-vermin? There's got to be a way to make genocide scrolls :nale:

Signmaker
2010-01-12, 08:55 PM
Don't forget the 'best' part, that everyone flung takes additional damage based on how far they were moved before impacting on something.

The primary counterargument for it is that since it specifies a circle and not a sphere, no target inside is flung more than an inch or two. Not sure if that was ever debunked and/or solved though.

Actually, the primary argument is 3D vs 2D shape types. The argument you mentioned is the secondary followup: "Well, assuming that the 2D circle can be effected by Explosive Spell, the nearest edge is technically vertically up/down, not horizontally miles away." In which case people either take 0 or 1d6 blast damage, depending on interpretation. It more or less exists as a give-and-take surrender of ideals to continue the argument (or resolve it, depending on who you ask).

Which is why Fell Drain more or less becomes a necessity to have Locate City be worth the annoying feat investment.

Zeful
2010-01-12, 08:56 PM
The primary counterargument for it is that since it specifies a circle and not a sphere, no target inside is flung more than an inch or two. Not sure if that was ever debunked and/or solved though.

Really, what is meant (RAI) by circle is the circle as drawn on a map. Otherwise you run into problems such as; what meaningful cross-section counts as a city, the complex geometries needed to locate a city a foot above your head (like a dwarven mountain city, where you'd need to use it) and the spell is worthless. The spell was not meant to be used offensively (though I would allow a straight INT check to use it like that (calculating the angle to hit a single opponent in the center of their mass and throwing them miles) if the player thought it up like that, simply because it's awesome) so when you try to weaponize it the entire spell simply falls apart.

Otodetu
2010-01-12, 08:59 PM
It's an old trick.

That said, you can avoid the primary issue (people indoors hit the walls, then stop) by subing in fell drain (no save, negative level to everyone in the zone, everything with 1 or less HD becomes a wight and starts the Apocalypse)

Wait, Fell drain can do that too? thought you needed real energy drain from a succubus or similar...

And the locate city bomb can deal some damage without cheese right?

Signmaker
2010-01-12, 09:01 PM
And the locate city bomb can deal some damage without cheese right?

Technically, the concept of the LCB is fundamentally cheese, so no.
Unstable cheese at that, as interpretations vary easily.

deuxhero
2010-01-12, 09:02 PM
Pretty sure any creature that dies via negative levels becomes a Wight.

That reminds me of an intresting character build
Hey Lloyd! Catch! *throws quiver of holy arrows*

Rainbownaga
2010-01-12, 09:13 PM
Alternatively, you can drop the explosive spell part and make a low level spell that makes anyone within miles get stunned and fall down (assuming they fail two saves) and covers the vicinity in ice. Pretty cool :smallcool:

Signmaker
2010-01-12, 09:14 PM
Alternatively, you can drop the explosive spell part and make a low level spell that makes anyone within miles get stunned and fall down (assuming they fail two saves) and covers the vicinity in ice. Pretty cool :smallcool:

Annoy a few druids while you're at it?

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-12, 09:15 PM
We should list all the variations. FOR SCIENCE!

lesser_minion
2010-01-12, 09:20 PM
There are a few metamagic reducers that can apparently be read as "the total adjustment of all of the feats you apply may not be negative", rather than "you cannot reduce the adjustment of a spell that already has a +0 adjustment". 3.5 was supposed to change all +0 metamagic feats to "all of your spells do this".

The idea is that you take them, and then use them to allow you to buy off all of the other metamagic you apply using +0 metamagic feats, including a feat that causes damage to everything in the area, one that bestows negative levels on everything damaged, and explosive spell.

You use locate city because the spell has an area rather than a target, and because the area is massive.

Pyro_Azer
2010-01-12, 09:21 PM
As far as the does not work position is concerned: you can do the same trick, abiet a lot more efficiently, with appocalypse from the sky from BOVD.

Otodetu
2010-01-12, 09:32 PM
Srd-strike:
A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

This means fell drain is a great way to make wights, just put the dead commoners in cages or sealed rooms and you have a private death trap...

To bad you cannot control them.

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-12, 09:33 PM
Actually, the primary argument is 3D vs 2D shape types. The argument you mentioned is the secondary followup: "Well, assuming that the 2D circle can be effected by Explosive Spell, the nearest edge is technically vertically up/down, not horizontally miles away." In which case people either take 0 or 1d6 blast damage, depending on interpretation. It more or less exists as a give-and-take surrender of ideals to continue the argument (or resolve it, depending on who you ask).

Which is why Fell Drain more or less becomes a necessity to have Locate City be worth the annoying feat investment.

Of course, oddly enough, the thing specifically mentions that it locates underground and aboveground cities. It even counts distance as "The total land route required" so if there's a ridiculously long 900 mile winding tunnel as the only access to a city two feet below you, it'll consider that city 900 miles away.

Doesn't sound very 2d to me.

Signmaker
2010-01-12, 09:44 PM
Of course, oddly enough, the thing specifically mentions that it locates underground and aboveground cities. It even counts distance as "The total land route required" so if there's a ridiculously long 900 mile winding tunnel as the only access to a city two feet below you, it'll consider that city 900 miles away.

Doesn't sound very 2d to me.

By text description, no. But regardless, it says Area: 10 miles/level radius circle. Take it as you will, the spell doesn't state any form of explicit dimensionality other than at that point.

You point is sort of valid, though. Hence the difficulty in finding a consensus as to the spell's interpreted effect. Perhaps the spell really is 3D, perhaps it attempts to simplify the effect by treating paths as 2-dimensional (thus leading to the underground city clause), it's hard to say what is more or less acceptable.

Jack_Simth
2010-01-12, 09:44 PM
Srd-strike:
A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

This means fell drain is a great way to make wights, just put the dead commoners in cages or sealed rooms and you have a private death trap...

To bad you cannot control them.
Technically, this also means that a swarm of spiders killed this way rises as a single wight. Meanwhile, the N individual spiders killed the same way rise as N wights.

The Glyphstone
2010-01-12, 09:49 PM
As far as the does not work position is concerned: you can do the same trick, abiet a lot more efficiently, with appocalypse from the sky from BOVD.

I'm not sure if I would consider a spell that consumes an artifact as its material component (and rips your stats a new one from the Corruption cost) to be more efficient than spending feats.


Technically, this also means that a swarm of spiders killed this way rises as a single wight. Meanwhile, the N individual spiders killed the same way rise as N wights.

Spider-Wight, Spider-Wight, does whatever a spider-wight can...

Jack_Simth
2010-01-12, 09:56 PM
I'm not sure if I would consider a spell that consumes an artifact as its material component (and rips your stats a new one from the Corruption cost) to be more efficient than spending feats.



Spider-Wight, Spider-Wight, does whatever a spider-wight can...
Yes. But when you kill a swarm 100,000 of spiders with negative levels, you get a single wight.

When you kill 100,000 individual spiders with negative levels, you get 100,000 wights.

What's the conversion ratio of Spiders to Wights?

Plus, you know, you've got a single, Fine spider that turns into a medium undead ... or a Colossal Titan that turns into a medium undead.

You know, Wight should probably be a template... as should Shadow, Spectre, and other self-replicating undead....

Signmaker
2010-01-12, 10:01 PM
Yes. But when you kill a swarm 100,000 of spiders with negative levels, you get a single wight.

When you kill 100,000 individual spiders with negative levels, you get 100,000 wights.

What's the conversion ratio of Spiders to Wights?

Plus, you know, you've got a single, Fine spider that turns into a medium undead ... or a Colossal Titan that turns into a medium undead.

You know, Wight should probably be a template... as should Shadow, Spectre, and other self-replicating undead....

Technically, characters become wights, not creatures. This may curb your wightopocalypse a bit.

Phlale
2010-01-12, 10:10 PM
I'm AFB but doesn't Explosive spell only apply to spells with a reflex save? Locate City has a will save IIRC. But it's great battlefield control for smaller spells, expecially if you can exclude the fighter from the area.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-12, 10:12 PM
Locate City, much like Augury, has no save. However, Snowcasting + Flash Frost Spell + Energy Substitution (or Admixture, I forget) + Born of the Three Thunders gives it a reflex save.

herrhauptmann
2010-01-12, 10:13 PM
Technically, this also means that a swarm of spiders killed this way rises as a single wight. Meanwhile, the N individual spiders killed the same way rise as N wights.

Can you have undead vermin? Undead swarms? I know you can't have skeletal versions of things without endoskeletons in their MM entry. (oozes, and purple worm are mentioned by name I think)

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-12, 10:13 PM
I'm AFB but doesn't Explosive spell only apply to spells with a reflex save? Locate City has a will save IIRC. But it's great battlefield control for smaller spells, expecially if you can exclude the fighter from the area.That's part of the feat chain. It's long, complicated, and all RAW-legal. The only questionable part is the duration and the effectiveness.

Grumman
2010-01-12, 10:31 PM
Edit: Additionally, are there even any spells or metamagic effects that allow you to chose a specific type you want to kill? I know there are anti-undead, but are there any anti animal or anti-vermin? There's got to be a way to make genocide scrolls :nale:
Someone with the Spiderfriend feat can make their spell affect everything except allied vermin. So a Drow character could possibly genocide an enemy city, leaving every spider unharmed.

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-12, 10:43 PM
Someone with the Spiderfriend feat can make their spell affect everything except allied vermin. So a Drow character could possibly genocide an enemy city, leaving every spider unharmed.

Well, simple enough then. Just reverse the polarity and you have a spell that only unkills spiders.

Nerocite
2010-01-12, 10:47 PM
You know, Wight should probably be a template... as should Shadow, Spectre, and other self-replicating undead....

Savage Species. Although it's humanoids only.

Zaq
2010-01-12, 11:27 PM
Technically, characters become wights, not creatures. This may curb your wightopocalypse a bit.

PHB, pg. 306:

"character: A fictional individual within the confines of a fantasy
game setting. The words “character” and “creature” are often used
synonymously within these rules, since almost any creature could
be a character within the game, and every character is a creature (as
opposed to an object)."

Ibid, same page:

"creature: A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The
terms “creature” and “character” are sometimes used interchange-
ably. "

I guess the weasel words "often" and "sometimes" can be argued to throw a wrench in the works, but I still think this is a strong argument in favor of the two being the same.

phantomreader42
2010-01-12, 11:31 PM
The problem is that rats and kittens are the same "type" meaning that anything that could kill off plague rats is likely to kill fluffy as well.

Edit: Additionally, are there even any spells or metamagic effects that allow you to chose a specific type you want to kill? I know there are anti-undead, but are there any anti animal or anti-vermin? There's got to be a way to make genocide scrolls :nale:

Ah, but plague is not spread by rats, but by their fleas. And fleas count as Vermin, not Animals. :roach:

Signmaker
2010-01-12, 11:36 PM
PHB, pg. 306:

"character: A fictional individual within the confines of a fantasy
game setting. The words “character” and “creature” are often used
synonymously within these rules, since almost any creature could
be a character within the game, and every character is a creature (as
opposed to an object)."

Ibid, same page:

"creature: A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The
terms “creature” and “character” are sometimes used interchange-
ably. "

I guess the weasel words "often" and "sometimes" can be argued to throw a wrench in the works, but I still think this is a strong argument in favor of the two being the same.

At the very least, I'd make the argument that you could Wight creatures that CAN become characters, but not those that can't. So most humanoids are in, most vermin are out.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-12, 11:39 PM
At the very least, I'd make the argument that you could Wight creatures that CAN become characters, but not those that can't. So most humanoids are in, most vermin are out.I can make anything into a character, assuming you consider pet-builds to have the pet as the actual character(especially ones where the master can stay at home reading while the pet adventures).

JaronK
2010-01-12, 11:41 PM
Just to pull out exactly how it works:

Start with Locate City, a spell with a 10 mile/caster level radius. I know it says circle, but the text of the spell makes it clear that it means a sphere (it talks about elevations and everything). Anyway, not worrying about that for now. You need the Snowcasting feat, which gives the spell the [cold] subtype. Now you can apply Flash Frost Spell, which does 2 damage to everyone in the area of any [cold] subtype spell. Next, go with Energy Substitution (Electricity) to turn it electrical (remember that metamagics may be applied in any order). Now apply Born of Three Thunders, which can only be on electrical spells that do damage and among other things gives the spell a reflex save. Finally, add in Explosive Spell, which blows everything in the area of a spell to the nearest point outside that spell, doing 1d6 damage for every 5' traveled on the way. And of course, with Arcane Thesis (Locate City) this all takes a first level slot, since the FAQ clarified that Arcane Thesis can make some metamagics be negative (like Energy Sub) but can't make the overall spell be lower than the original unmetamagic'd spell.

End result is that everyone within (Caster Level +2)*10 miles pretty much dies instantly if they're chucked out. Note that you'll be effected too unless you can stop that somehow (Relicguard spell and the Necropolitan template will do it, if you don't mind missing all undead and constructs).

It's a fun little trick, though obviously inappropriate for most games. Also, I think it can be put in a wand for a D&D nuke (which actually could be an interesting twist as the PCs try to stop this thing from being used by a suicide bomber, but be sure the PCs won't just turn around and use it).

JaronK

taltamir
2010-01-12, 11:45 PM
Srd-strike:
A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

This means fell drain is a great way to make wights, just put the dead commoners in cages or sealed rooms and you have a private death trap...

To bad you cannot control them.

1. Play an evil cleric or a neutral cleric that channels negative energy
2. Make weights
3. Rebuke them (have enough HD to control at least 1)
4. Order all the weights under your control to protect you.
5. Release all the weights under your control
repeat steps 2-5

In DnD, a mindless undead follows the last order it received. It will ignore anyone and anything, even delicious living flesh, to follow its last order.
Now, I am not sure, but I think maybe an undead which was never given orders (ex, if it was never rebuked since its creation) acts freely (aka, "braaaainnns").

Zeful
2010-01-13, 12:41 AM
I know it says circle, but the text of the spell makes it clear that it means a sphere (it talks about elevations and everything). Anyway, not worrying about that for now. You need the Snowcasting feat, which gives the spell the [cold] subtype. Now you can apply Flash Frost Spell, which does 2 damage to everyone in the area of any [cold] subtype spell. Next, go with Energy Substitution (Electricity) to turn it electrical (remember that metamagics may be applied in any order).
There are no rules for the order of Metamagic feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats) (at least not in the SRD), so you let them be applied in any order.

And while the description does specify elevation also specifies distance by land route, which is more equivalent to taking a sheet and laying it over the world than a sphere as it can't find flying cities in it's reach.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-13, 12:48 AM
There are no rules for the order of Metamagic feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats) (at least not in the SRD), so you let them be applied in any order.The standard rule is that bonuses and penalties are applied in the most beneficial order, and nothing in the metamagic feats contradicts this. Plus, they can only be applied in this order, since each feat is required in order to make the spell a viable target for the next one.

SparkMandriller
2010-01-13, 12:54 AM
In DnD, a mindless undead follows the last order it received. It will ignore anyone and anything, even delicious living flesh, to follow its last order.

Wights have like 11 intelligence. I'm pretty certain they don't count as mindless.

Another_Poet
2010-01-13, 01:13 AM
Someone with the Spiderfriend feat can make their spell affect everything except allied vermin. So a Drow character could possibly genocide an enemy city, leaving every spider unharmed.

That is the sexiest thing I have heard of in my 5 years of gaming.

shadow_archmagi
2010-01-13, 08:33 AM
And while the description does specify elevation also specifies distance by land route, which is more equivalent to taking a sheet and laying it over the world than a sphere as it can't find flying cities in it's reach.


Nowhere in the spell text does it say it can't find flying cities, and it does very definitely imply it can find underground ones.

SPELL TEXT

You sense the distance and direction to the nearest community of a minimum size designated by you at the time of casting. For instance, you could choose to find the nearest community at least as large as a village, or you could choose to locate only the nearest metropolis. This spell measures the distance to the “nearest” community as the minimum distance one would have to travel to reach the city without moving through solid objects. Thus, a caster on the surface isn’t likely to locate a subterranean city half a mile beneath his feet, even if the next closest community is 5 miles away overland.


With the "Anything within a circle, regardless of Z-level" interpretation (that is to say, the one you get when you drop a circle on a map and say anything in that circle is detected) you have a cylinder of effect.

dsmiles
2010-01-13, 08:42 AM
Humor me...

Exactly why do people enjoy breaking the game so much?

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-13, 08:54 AM
Actually, it's anything with LoE of X miles or less. Above the surface, that's a sphere, below the 'surface' (including the landscape, and houses etc...) it relies on what tunnels etc are available, and is defeated by a locked closed door, so a house with no openings escapes the effect. If it has a chimney, however, the commoners inside are either smacked into the walls, or fly out the chimney. Either way, they should die (2d6 would kill most if not all of them, and that's if they're standing right next to a wall.)

Meanwhile, anything outside is blasted away from you at a ridiculous speed and takes a billion d6, and anything flying is now leaving the earth's atmosphere. And takes a billion d6.

2xMachina
2010-01-13, 09:05 AM
Humor me...

Exactly why do people enjoy breaking the game so much?

Cause we're chaotic, and like to screw rules ;)

kentma57
2010-01-13, 09:09 AM
Of course the real question is if we can make all the buildings(and posibly the ground) take damage as well(as they will probably fail the save). Now I have not read most of those meta-magic feats recently so I can't remember if their is a cause that prevents them from damaging buildings...

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-13, 09:10 AM
Because it makes me feel smarter than the designers of one of the most popular games going? Other than that....I get to imagine monstrosities in action in various impossibly hard dungeons :P

dsmiles
2010-01-13, 09:14 AM
Of course the real question is if we can make all the buildings(and posibly the ground) take damage as well(as they will probably fail the save). Now I have not read most of those meta-magic feats recently so I can't remember if their is a cause that prevents them from damaging buildings...

Why would you want to do this? I think I'd rather have a completely unpopulated city to inhabit with my army of evil minions. :smallconfused:

kentma57
2010-01-13, 09:16 AM
Why would you want to do this? I think I'd rather have a completely unpopulated city to inhabit with my army of evil minions. :smallconfused:

I needed to drill a hole down to the under-dark... My armies where ready to invade.

clockworkmonk
2010-01-13, 09:35 AM
You can still evade it, and anything with electric energy resistance of at least one would be fine.

So, a second level rogue has a pretty good chance of surviving this. So do 3rd level clerics and wizards who know its coming. Resist energy, and you're good.

Jayabalard
2010-01-13, 09:38 AM
I know it says circle, but the text of the spell makes it clear that it means a sphere If you're delving into interpreting what is meant rather than what is written, you're arguing interpretation and what makes sense to people. And if you're in that realm, it makes sense that this sort of cheese doesn't work, or it would already have been done many times before.

You might even run into people who take the stance that the text of the spell makes it clear that the range is personal, since the only effect of the spell is that you gain information.

Ormagoden
2010-01-13, 09:39 AM
Spider-Wight, Spider-Wight, does whatever a spider-wight can...

Best line in the thread by far!

Tackyhillbillu
2010-01-13, 09:43 AM
Got to love Evasionspace.

Rogue: "I got out of the way, so I'm fine."
(Dead) Fighter: "It has a 10-Mile wide Radius! How the hell do you get out of the way?"
Rogue: "I'm just that good."

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-13, 09:44 AM
Text>Table is the rule for stuff like that iirc. Table says circle, Text says wonky sphere.

Errr block LoE somehow would be the only way....hide under a blanket?

Cyclocone
2010-01-13, 09:51 AM
Errr block LoE somehow would be the only way....hide under a blanket?

Hide behind yourself; you're a Rogue after all.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-13, 09:58 AM
Cause we're chaotic, and like to screw rules ;)

Strikes me as more Lawful Evil, really.

Oslecamo
2010-01-13, 10:01 AM
Start with Locate City, a spell with a 10 mile/caster level radius. I know it says circle, but the text of the spell makes it clear that it means a sphere (it talks about elevations and everything). Anyway, not worrying about that for now. You need the Snowcasting feat, which gives the spell the [cold] subtype. Now you can apply Flash Frost Spell, which does 2 damage to everyone in the area of any [cold] subtype spell. Next, go with Energy Substitution (Electricity) to turn it electrical (remember that metamagics may be applied in any order). Now apply Born of Three Thunders, which can only be on electrical spells that do damage and among other things gives the spell a reflex save. Finally, add in Explosive Spell, which blows everything in the area of a spell to the nearest point outside that spell, doing 1d6 damage for every 5' traveled on the way.

Allow me to point you to the real rules, from Complete Arcane:

Exlosive spell can be applied only to spells that allow Reflex saves and affect an area(a cone, cylinder, line or burst).

No sphere (or circle or bizzarre thingy that fits inside tunnels) allowed.

But hey, don't let me stop your destructive fun. Just to point out that you're not talking about D&D anymore, but freeform, where everything is possible.

MickJay
2010-01-13, 10:27 AM
Hear, hear.

I think I like the range=self even better (scrying isn't the spell's effect, knowledge is). :smalltongue:

Lysander
2010-01-13, 10:43 AM
The LCB can't work by RAW though. Flash frost can't be added to spells that don't deal damage, which breaks the metamagic chain.


Flash Frost Spell

Your spells that use cold and ice to damage your foes leave behind a thin layer of slippery frost.

Benefit: This metamagic feat can be applied only to spells that have the cold descriptor and that affect an area. A flash frost spell deals an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area

I've seen people argue that the benefit is the only part that is rule and the top sentence is just unimportant "fluff" that can be ignored. Even if you accept that (which I don't), it still requires Locate City to affect an area. Technically it doesn't affect it's area, it just scans it.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-13, 10:46 AM
Fluff can be ignored. LCB still fails by RAW on a couple of points.

kentma57
2010-01-13, 11:12 AM
The LCB can't work by RAW though. Flash frost can't be added to spells that don't deal damage, which breaks the metamagic chain.

I've seen people argue that the benefit is the only part that is rule and the top sentence is just unimportant "fluff" that can be ignored. Even if you accept that (which I don't), it still requires Locate City to affect an area. Technically it doesn't affect it's area, it just scans it.

1. Flash frost lets any spell with an area of effect deal 2 points of cold damage(and make the ground slipery), Locate City has an area(because it is baddly written and and the designer gave it and area of effect instead of just saying "you find the nearest city within X distance based on...")

2. When talking about how to break the game for the fun of it yes the fluff can be ignored, focus on the RAW.

3. Locate City does affect the area, the affect is the 'scan' you mentioned(it just they when you scan something it gets very cold... then it explodes.).
(see: Heisenberg uncertainty principle)

4. Circle is not on the list of AoE types, so either it is ment to be a sphere/spread, or all other rules need to be updated to include this new 'Circle' AoE.

5. As for "Exlosive spell" not working on this new 'Circle' AoE there must be a meta-magic feat that allows you to change what type the AoE is.

2xMachina
2010-01-13, 11:18 AM
Strikes me as more Lawful Evil, really.

Screwing rules is C (making pun-puns, Windicator, Solar chain gator, repeating traps)

But using LCB as LE? Yeah probably.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-13, 11:19 AM
4. Circle is not on the list of AoE types, so either it is ment to be a sphere/spread, or all other rules need to be updated to include this new 'Circle' AoE.

5. As for "Exlosive spell" not working on this new 'Circle' AoE there must be a meta-magic feat that allows you to change what type the AoE is.

"need to be" and "have been" are horribly different so far as RAW is concerned.

There are a number of ways to sculpt spells. However, doing so has rather limited end sizes, which results in LCB being quite tame.

kentma57
2010-01-13, 11:28 AM
"need to be" and "have been" are horribly different so far as RAW is concerned.

I know, I sort of contradicted myself there...

Signmaker
2010-01-13, 12:41 PM
Allow me to point you to the real rules, from Complete Arcane:

Exlosive spell can be applied only to spells that allow Reflex saves and affect an area(a cone, cylinder, line or burst).

No sphere (or circle or bizzarre thingy that fits inside tunnels) allowed.

But hey, don't let me stop your destructive fun. Just to point out that you're not talking about D&D anymore, but freeform, where everything is possible.

Funny thing, you know Fireball? The example spell? It's a spread. Which means that what you've quoted is inclusive, not exclusive in nature.

It's generally understood that Explosive spell references 3D effects, and more or less just lists the most basic of 3D types.

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 01:01 PM
1. Flash frost lets any spell with an area of effect deal 2 points of cold damage(and make the ground slipery), Locate City has an area(because it is baddly written and and the designer gave it and area of effect instead of just saying "you find the nearest city within X distance based on...")
(see: Heisenberg uncertainty principle)

You are not blinded when magically rendered invisible, nor is any part of your body visible. Ergo, by RAW, either the HUP doesn't apply at all, doesn't apply to magic, or doesn't always apply to magic.

I can murder catgirls just as brutally as you can.

Jayabalard
2010-01-13, 01:12 PM
3. Locate City does affect the area, the affect is the 'scan' you mentioned(it just they when you scan something it gets very cold... then it explodes.).Since you seem to want to start arguing what the rules mean (eg your comments about the circle type AoE) I'm guessing you're leaving the world of RAW. In that case, it's clear that locate city doesn't affect the area though, nor does it doesn't scan anything. You, the person casting the spell, just become aware of the nearest city inside of X distance; you are the only thing affected by the spell.


You are not blinded when magically rendered invisible, nor is any part of your body visible. I don't know if that's a good example... I mean, you can still be seen/detected using several other magical effects, so that doesn't seem like a valid counter-example.

Lysander
2010-01-13, 01:26 PM
Since you seem to want to start arguing what the rules mean (eg your comments about the circle type AoE) I'm guessing you're leaving the world of RAW. In that case, it's clear that locate city doesn't affect the area though, nor does it doesn't scan anything. You, the person casting the spell, just become aware of the nearest city inside of X distance; you are the only thing affected by the spell.


Uh oh. Think about this. Locate City has an area, but your brain is the only target!


A flash frost spell deals an extra 2 points of cold damage per level of the spell to all targets in the area

The circle isn't the target, it's an area. The target of the spell is you, since you are the only one who gains the knowledge:


You sense the distance and direction to the nearest community of a minimum size designated by you at the time of casting.

Nothing happens to the city, just the caster. And since you are the target, and you are within the area, a Locate City Bomb should actually just make the caster's head explode.

Jayabalard
2010-01-13, 01:35 PM
Nothing happens to the city, just the caster. And since you are the target, and you are within the area, a Locate City Bomb should actually just make the caster's head explode.hmm... that interpretation realld does make a lot more sense to me than the ones that are necessary for the LCB.

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-13, 01:40 PM
The spell as RAW has an Area of effect, not a Range: Personal, or anything like that.

That means that Flash Frost Can Apply.

BotTT has a list of areas that work, true, but it doesn't include effects which do work e.g. spreads. Therefore any AoE spell that does damage of the electricity or sonic type can use it, as there is no limit on the possible areas that work.

The question I have seen raised is whether Energy Substitution allows Flash Frost to still do damage, which seems fine to me, as bonuses etc stack in the most benificial way, and I can't see any reason why you can't choose which way the MMs are applied. Either way, Energy Admixture would work just as well.

The better version, as has been mentioned, is Flash Frost + Fell Drain....in a country's capital city. Anyone outside/in a room with windows/open doors dies and becomes a wight 1 day later, and now a massive army of wights has taken over the capital, with the government of the country trapped in usually the middle of it all.

Do it 2-5 times, and even one of the largest armies the world could mass would melt away, only to be replaced with a rampaging horde of undead the next day.

Lysander
2010-01-13, 01:46 PM
The spell as RAW has an Area of effect, not a Range: Personal, or anything like that.


The area is very big, but the caster is the only target in that area. All the spell does is put a directional sense and distance into the caster's head. It's like any other spell that implants something into a person's mind. The person receiving the information, whether from a Sending or Nightmare or Locate City, is the target.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-13, 01:50 PM
The area is very big, but the caster is the only target in that area. All the spell does is put a directional sense and distance into the caster's head. It's like any other spell that implants something into a person's mind. The person receiving the information, whether from a Sending or Nightmare or Locate City, is the target.

No. Read the spell (pg 166 Races of Destiny) no target line. Yes you recieve information, but you aren't the [target] for spell effects.

Thespianus
2010-01-13, 01:52 PM
Allow me to point you to the real rules, from Complete Arcane:

Exlosive spell can be applied only to spells that allow Reflex saves and affect an area(a cone, cylinder, line or burst).

No sphere (or circle or bizzarre thingy that fits inside tunnels) allowed.

But the circle is the area:


Area: 10 miles/level radius circle, centered on you

And, from Players Handbook, page 176:

Other: A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description.

So it does indeed affect an area. I think they ARE talking about DnD after all. ;)

EDIT: Well, I guess one could argue that the description of "Explosive Spell" limits the valid area types to "cone, cylinder, line or burst", but..well, as someone said, that exludes Fireball. Fireball is a "spread".

Jayabalard
2010-01-13, 01:54 PM
So it does indeed affect an area. I think they ARE talking about DnD after all. ;)Nope, it has no effect on the area; it only affects the caster.

Thespianus
2010-01-13, 01:58 PM
Nope, it has no effect on the area; it only affects the caster.
Well, it performs a measurement within the area (RAW), so even if it doesn't affect the area, it performs an action within the area. ;)

Jayabalard
2010-01-13, 02:00 PM
Well, it performs a measurement within the area (RAW), so even if it doesn't affect the area, it performs an action within the area. ;)No, that's not actually listed anywhere in the spell, either in the block or in the fluff. That's just pure speculation. The only thing we know is that you, the caster, sense the direction of the nearest city within a certain range. You are the only thing listed as affected by the spell effect.

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 02:00 PM
I don't know if that's a good example... I mean, you can still be seen/detected using several other magical effects, so that doesn't seem like a valid counter-example.

Any interaction with light is visible - light entering your eye from somewhere such an interaction took place would cause you to see a different image to what you would see if no such interaction had taken place.

In order to see, cells on your retina must absorb light.

Therefore, if the HUP applied, invisibility effects would not render a character's eyes invisible to mundane sight.

However, they do, and it is not implied that the character sees in some weird magical way, so the HUP clearly doesn't apply to all magic.


EDIT: Well, I guess one could argue that the description of "Explosive Spell" limits the valid area types to "cone, cylinder, line or burst", but..well, as someone said, that exludes Fireball. Fireball is a "spread".

Fireball is a sphere, actually. Spread is its area type, not its area shape. I think Burst was a typo (because everything else listed is a shape, not an area type) and it should have read 'sphere'.

That would exclude Locate City, but it's heading into "what I think the rules wanted to say" territory.

Thespianus
2010-01-13, 02:02 PM
No, that's not actually listed anywhere in the spell, either in the block or in the fluff. That's just pure speculation. The only thing we know is that you, the caster, sense the direction of the nearest city within a certain range.

I'm reading Races of Destiny right now, page 166:

"This spell measures the distance to the “nearest” community"

But, ok, if the problem lies with that Locate City doesn't "do" anything within the area, the spell Control Weather does. That's a 2 mile (3 mile if you're a Druid) radius. ;)

EDIT: But, ok that's a 7th level spell, not a 1st level spell.

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 02:05 PM
I'm reading Races of Destiny right now, page 166:

"This spell measures the distance to the “nearest” community"

But, ok, if the problem lies with that Locate City doesn't "do" anything within the area, the spell Control Weather does. That's a 2 mile (3 mile if you're a Druid) radius. ;)

EDIT: But, ok that's a 7th level spell, not a 1st level spell.

Use it to create a thunderstorm.

A lightning bolt has a reflex save and causes damage. You can create them using control weather, you just can't control them.

Ergo, it could be read as a spell that requires reflex saves and deals damage.

Arguing that it affects those within its area in a way that subjects them to the Explosive Spell effect is even harder though.

Keshay
2010-01-13, 02:21 PM
Allow me to point you to the real rules, from Complete Arcane:

Exlosive spell can be applied only to spells that allow Reflex saves and affect an area(a cone, cylinder, line or burst).

No sphere (or circle or bizzarre thingy that fits inside tunnels) allowed.

But hey, don't let me stop your destructive fun. Just to point out that you're not talking about D&D anymore, but freeform, where everything is possible.

From the SRD:
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.

Spheres are permitted, as they are a type of burst.

Lysander
2010-01-13, 02:25 PM
Use it to create a thunderstorm.

A lightning bolt has a reflex save and causes damage. You can create them using control weather, you just can't control them.

Ergo, it could be read as a spell that requires reflex saves and deals damage.

Arguing that it affects those within its area in a way that subjects them to the Explosive Spell effect is even harder though.

But you run into the same targeting problem. Explosive spell deals damage to the spell's target. The target of Control Weather isn't the people on the ground...it's the weather. Can you damage the weather?

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 02:29 PM
But you run into the same targeting problem. Explosive spell deals damage to the spell's target. The target of Control Weather isn't the people on the ground...it's the weather. Can you damage the weather?

I did say that it would be even harder to convince anyone that it's RAW.

Jayabalard
2010-01-13, 02:32 PM
I'm reading Races of Destiny right now, page 166:

"This spell measures the distance to the “nearest” community"I guess you could use this to make the argument that it also targets the city... not the people of the city, or the structures of the city, or the ground of the city, but the meta-idea of city-ness of the city. Even then, it's affecting you and the city, not an area.

I remain skeptical, since "measures the distance to the “nearest” community" is a pretty vague statement; it doesn't say anything at all about how it does this; perhaps it uses some celestial geodatabase, and does a find nearest point algorithm to find the nearest point on the polygon that represents that city in the geodatabase. In that case, the targets would be you and that celestial geodatabase. Still not an area.

Either way. it doesn't seem to be all that useful.

Thespianus
2010-01-13, 02:35 PM
Either way. it doesn't seem to be all that useful. Let's just put it like this: The bomb would not go off at my table. ;)

Jayabalard
2010-01-13, 02:41 PM
Let's just put it like this: The bomb would not go off at my table. ;)Are you sure? It does seem really likely that it would explode the head of the guy casting it.

Lysander
2010-01-13, 03:13 PM
Are you sure? It does seem really likely that it would explode the head of the guy casting it.

I have to admit that out of all the ways a wizard can commit suicide, an elaborate feat chain that makes a divination spell explode their head is pretty elegant.

JaronK
2010-01-13, 05:29 PM
If you're delving into interpreting what is meant rather than what is written, you're arguing interpretation and what makes sense to people. And if you're in that realm, it makes sense that this sort of cheese doesn't work, or it would already have been done many times before.

You might even run into people who take the stance that the text of the spell makes it clear that the range is personal, since the only effect of the spell is that you gain information.

"You sense the distance and direction to the nearest community of a minimum size designated by you at the time of casting. For instance, you could choose to find the nearest community at least as large as a village, or you could choose to locate only the nearest metropolis. This spell measures the distance to the “nearest” community as the minimum distance one would have to travel to reach the city without moving through solid objects. Thus, a caster on the surface isn’t likely to locate a subterranean city half a mile beneath his feet, even if the next closest community is 5 miles away overland."

That's pretty darn clear. Remember that text always trumps table. Also, the range is given in the spell.

Anyway, I doubt this would ever be used in a game, I was just showing how the rules for it worked. And it doesn't matter what the target is, it just needs an area... flash frost spell ensures that everyone gets hit.

JaronK

herrhauptmann
2010-01-13, 06:56 PM
You can still evade it, and anything with electric energy resistance of at least one would be fine.

So, a second level rogue has a pretty good chance of surviving this. So do 3rd level clerics and wizards who know its coming. Resist energy, and you're good.

So you've evaded it, great. But most of the nearby commoners failed to evade it, and have now been blasted into the next county.
Meanwhile, even the level 19 rogue/shadowdancer/assassin etc has a 1 in 20 chance to fail and get blasted into the next county.

In the meantime, I think I dude I know is going to use this as a campaign hook in the future.
I was telling him about the LCB, then the wightocalypse version. And then mentioned some ways in which a BBEG would need this. If the BBEG has all the metamagic feats needed save for one, the party's goal would be to find the metamagic rod the BBEG needed before he got his mitts on it.
If they failed that, they then had to race to stop him from casting it, because there's no point to causing the wightocalypse if your wights go and overwhelm you in the first 10 minutes, hence needing him to prepare.


As far as screwing with teh rules, I think we're LE with that. We're taking the written forms of the rules, and applying them literally in methods that benefit us, rather than following the intended purpose.
If we were CE, we wouldn't even be arguing with the phrasing of the rules, we'd just do whatever we pleased.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-13, 07:19 PM
If they failed that, they then had to race to stop him from casting it, because there's no point to causing the wightocalypse if your wights go and overwhelm you in the first 10 minutes, hence needing him to prepare.

There's a 24 hr delay before the wights come out to play. No prep needed, just leave town before then. Shouldn't be a problem for any caster capable of doing a wightpocalpyse.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-13, 07:40 PM
I've had an interesting thought. Maybe a LCB was responsible for the destruction of Cyre in Eberron. Seriously though, the reason LCB's aren't used in-game is good old self preservation. The caster blasts himself to smithereens and that's just not conducive to any kind of rational plan. Nevermind how disparate the necessary feats are and the rarity of spell-casters that are high enough level to cast it.

JaronK
2010-01-13, 07:48 PM
You do indeed need a VERY high level Wizard to get together all the feats to make the Locate City Bomb. And I could see nuclear treaties being made for stuff like this, but in secret (not wanting anyone else to know about it).

I actually did play around with the idea of the deadlands in Eberron being created by a Locate City Bomb with Fell Drain thrown in, and a touch of some ritual that just made it that much worse.

JaronK

kentma57
2010-01-13, 08:51 PM
No, that's not actually listed anywhere in the spell, either in the block or in the fluff. That's just pure speculation. The only thing we know is that you, the caster, sense the direction of the nearest city within a certain range. You are the only thing listed as affected by the spell effect.

Nowhere does the spell list a target, it simply says the area is centered on you. In fact the word "target" is not even in the spell description.

Signmaker
2010-01-13, 09:19 PM
Nowhere does the spell list a target, it simply says the area is centered on you. In fact the word "target" is not even in the spell description.

So once again, we're left with insufficient data. Wonderful.

JaronK
2010-01-13, 10:18 PM
IIRC, Flash Frost Spell hits everyone inside the area, not targets. I could be wrong. But that would do it.

JaronK

herrhauptmann
2010-01-13, 10:44 PM
There's a 24 hr delay before the wights come out to play. No prep needed, just leave town before then. Shouldn't be a problem for any caster capable of doing a wightpocalpyse.

Oops, forgot that fact. I thought the 24 hour delay was just for vampires and vampire spawn.

The Deej
2010-01-13, 10:50 PM
I wonder if anyone has actually made any effort to figuring out just what kind of damage the locate city bomb could do (Assuming it is ruled that it works. In any of my games I would go with the 'your head explodes ruling). At 20th caster level, it's a circle 400 miles across. That means that you could blow up all of France. If it were widened, you could blow up most of the rest of Europe between there and Ukraine.

Ouch.

Signmaker
2010-01-13, 11:01 PM
I wonder if anyone has actually made any effort to figuring out just what kind of damage the locate city bomb could do (Assuming it is ruled that it works. In any of my games I would go with the 'your head explodes ruling). At 20th caster level, it's a circle 400 miles across. That means that you could blow up all of France. If it were widened, you could blow up most of the rest of Europe between there and Ukraine.

Ouch.

Anywhere from 'enough to kill a commoner' to 'maybe enough to kill a 10th level adventurer'.

Rarely are you going to find locations that are wide enough and free of obstructions (with sufficient population) to do more than a sample tray of damage dice.

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-13, 11:03 PM
Oops, forgot that fact. I thought the 24 hour delay was just for vampires and vampire spawn.It's not "24 hours later." It's "the next nightfall." Which means you'd get the most out of it at dawn on the summer solstice, giving you between 12 and 16 hours of daylight before they spawn. Unless you live at one of the arctic poles, in which case you're just screwed.

kentma57
2010-01-13, 11:10 PM
Anywhere from 'enough to kill a commoner' to 'maybe enough to kill a 10th level adventurer'.

Rarely are you going to find locations that are wide enough and free of obstructions (with sufficient population) to do more than a sample tray of damage dice.

That is why we need to find a way to make this affect buidings and not just creatures. Imagine the damage you could do then. :smallbiggrin:

Lysander
2010-01-13, 11:32 PM
IIRC, Flash Frost Spell hits everyone inside the area, not targets. I could be wrong. But that would do it.

JaronK

The feat says it deals 2 extra damage to all targets in the spells area. It's not enough to just have an area for the spell, there must also be a target and only the target takes damage.

Personally I think there is either A) No target, so the trick doesn't work at all or B) The caster themselves is the target since the only thing the spell does is implant information in their own mind. B really requires a vengeful DM and is pretty much a houserule, the first makes a lot more sense both by RAW and RAI. "Target" can be interpreted a lot of ways, but the sanest option is to just go with the Srd definition:


Target or Targets
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

2xMachina
2010-01-14, 12:01 AM
Wait. If a spell has a target line of "target(s)", it can not also have a target line of "area".

So, technically, Flash Frost NEVER works.

Mewtarthio
2010-01-14, 01:17 AM
In the meantime, I think I dude I know is going to use this as a campaign hook in the future.
I was telling him about the LCB, then the wightocalypse version. And then mentioned some ways in which a BBEG would need this. If the BBEG has all the metamagic feats needed save for one, the party's goal would be to find the metamagic rod the BBEG needed before he got his mitts on it.
If they failed that, they then had to race to stop him from casting it, because there's no point to causing the wightocalypse if your wights go and overwhelm you in the first 10 minutes, hence needing him to prepare.

Alternatively, the LCB hits the city with no forewarning while the players are still inside (if I read it right, the wightocalype version isn't explosive, so the PCs should survive). Imagine: The players are enjoying a well-deserved break, maybe shopping for magic goods, when suddenly--WHAM--the temperature drops a hundred degrees in an instant, a dark presence tears at their souls, everything around them is covered in a thin film of ice, and all the crowds around them fall motionless to the ground. Then, while they're checking the victims for any signs of life, wondering what in the Nine Hells just happened, the sun sets, and the crowds rise to their feet again...


As far as screwing with teh rules, I think we're LE with that. We're taking the written forms of the rules, and applying them literally in methods that benefit us, rather than following the intended purpose.

No, we're clearly Chaotic Neutral. A Lawful character would understand that the Law is all-powerful, and cannot be wrong. Evil means they interpret it to their benefit, but not that they see it as a tool to be used where convenient (that's NE). As CN characters, we are participate in thought experiments that take devotion to the Law to its extreme, thereby revealing the weaknesses inherent in any system. :smalltongue:
Do not be too proud of this rules-lawyering terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy an entire nation is insignificant next to the power of an alignment debate!

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-14, 02:08 AM
Anywhere from 'enough to kill a commoner' to 'maybe enough to kill a 10th level adventurer'.

Rarely are you going to find locations that are wide enough and free of obstructions (with sufficient population) to do more than a sample tray of damage dice.

since explosive spell doesn't have a cap on its damage a creature could potentially take 528d6 per mile. At 200 mile radius that's 105600d6 or 369600 damage on average. I'm betting that less than 1% of creatures in the area will actually take that much damage because of obstacles. Even on an open plain or tundra they'd only take damage for the distance they traveled from their starting point.

Zaq
2010-01-14, 02:14 AM
Alternatively, the LCB hits the city with no forewarning while the players are still inside (if I read it right, the wightocalype version isn't explosive, so the PCs should survive). Imagine: The players are enjoying a well-deserved break, maybe shopping for magic goods, when suddenly--WHAM--the temperature drops a hundred degrees in an instant, a dark presence tears at their souls, everything around them is covered in a thin film of ice, and all the crowds around them fall motionless to the ground. Then, while they're checking the victims for any signs of life, wondering what in the Nine Hells just happened, the sun sets, and the crowds rise to their feet again..[/color]

So... basically the Nightmare sequences of the new Silent Hill game?

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-14, 06:05 AM
It's not "24 hours later." It's "the next nightfall." Which means you'd get the most out of it at dawn on the summer solstice, giving you between 12 and 16 hours of daylight before they spawn. Unless you live at one of the arctic poles, in which case you're just screwed.

Yeeeeeah I still don't like he chances of escaping that. You'd need to rest. the Wights wouldn't and I'm willing to bet at least a few will remember seeing you just before the crap hit the fan.

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-14, 08:32 AM
Isn't explosive only if you fail your save? if you can't pass that save, then meh, at this point one more save or die isn't a huge thing. (although doing it to armies is mean)

2xMachina
2010-01-14, 08:35 AM
Yeeeeeah I still don't like he chances of escaping that. You'd need to rest. the Wights wouldn't and I'm willing to bet at least a few will remember seeing you just before the crap hit the fan.

Eh, by the time you get all those feats, you can spare a teleport spell to get out of there.

ZeroNumerous
2010-01-14, 08:37 AM
Yeeeeeah I still don't like he chances of escaping that. You'd need to rest. the Wights wouldn't and I'm willing to bet at least a few will remember seeing you just before the crap hit the fan.

He cast the LCB. He escapes it by Teleporting. Or Plane Shifting.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-14, 09:03 AM
No, we're clearly Chaotic Neutral. A Lawful character would understand that the Law is all-powerful, and cannot be wrong. Evil means they interpret it to their benefit, but not that they see it as a tool to be used where convenient (that's NE). As CN characters, we are participate in thought experiments that take devotion to the Law to its extreme, thereby revealing the weaknesses inherent in any system. :smalltongue:

Surely you mean violence inherent in the system. Help, help, Im being repressed!


True...next nightfall should really be listed as up to 24 hours. In theory, casting it just after the given time of nightfall, whenever that is(kill a single person with negative levels to use as an indicator, imo) should give you about 24 hrs.

Of course, casting JUST before nightfall gives no time at all.

Random832
2010-01-14, 09:22 AM
By text description, no. But regardless, it says Area: 10 miles/level radius circle. Take it as you will, the spell doesn't state any form of explicit dimensionality other than at that point.

Hold on. The description for Explosive Spell says "edge", right?

Where is the edge of a two-dimensional shape?


since explosive spell doesn't have a cap on its damage a creature could potentially take 528d6 per mile.

600d6. In D&D a "mile" is 6000 feet [see the walking distance tables].

2xMachina
2010-01-14, 09:39 AM
Said circle is more like a cylinder. You can't escape by jumping (cities flying in the atmosphere still pings, if there are no other cities around)

It pretty much scans for a city within the circle area, trace the route and calculate the distance, and report it to you.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-14, 09:40 AM
Where is the edge of a two-dimensional shape?

The primary counterargument for it is that since it specifies a circle and not a sphere, no target inside is flung more than an inch or two. Not sure if that was ever debunked and/or solved though.

Hence the problem, and why Explosive Spell is often skipped over for Fell Drain.

Random832
2010-01-14, 09:44 AM
Hence the problem, and why Explosive Spell is often skipped over for Fell Drain.

Um, "Where is the edge of a two-dimensional shape?" was not a rhetorical question; it was meant as a rebuttal to the idea that they would be flung only an inch or two.

The edge of a 10-mile circle is 10 miles away from the center, not an infinitesimal distance away from it, any more than the edge of a sphere is an infinitesimal distance into the past or future.

MickJay
2010-01-14, 10:36 AM
You're forgetting about the "up" and "down" of the circle. The whole idea of explosive spells is that you're thrown out of the area of the spell. In case of the circle, the width might be immense, but height is nonexistent, so the closest place where you're out of it is up (or down). Technically speaking, a 2-dimensional object is an edge. All of it.

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-14, 01:20 PM
Text > Table. It's the rule for dealing with discrepancies, and the Text states that it affects anything within the radius regardless of elevation.

tyckspoon
2010-01-14, 01:44 PM
The feat says it deals 2 extra damage to all targets in the spells area. It's not enough to just have an area for the spell, there must also be a target and only the target takes damage.


By this reading you cannot actually apply Flash Frost to a Cone of Cold or an Ice Storm, since neither of those spells actually specify targets. And those are clearly the intended recipients of the feat. It wouldn't be the first time the rules have generated absurd results, but I'm pretty sure Flash Frost is not talking about targets in the meaning of a Targeted spell.

Lysander
2010-01-14, 02:02 PM
By this reading you cannot actually apply Flash Frost to a Cone of Cold or an Ice Storm, since neither of those spells actually specify targets. And those are clearly the intended recipients of the feat. It wouldn't be the first time the rules have generated absurd results, but I'm pretty sure Flash Frost is not talking about targets in the meaning of a Targeted spell.

Well, that's the problem with trying to work around RAI. A text loophole can just as equally allow a ridiculous ability as ban a perfectly legitimate and intentional ability.

Ok. Now let's for the sake of argument say that the Locate City Bomb does "target" the nearest city. Even then the target isn't every creature and object within the circle, it's the city as a whole. You deal 2 damage to a city, which consists of hundreds if not thousands of buildings. How many hp does that add up to in total? Millions? You deduct 2 hp from an mind-boggling large number of hitpoints. Make sure to consider the combined hardness of all objects and the fact that objects take 1/2 damage from cold. End result is almost definitely 0 damage.

Random832
2010-01-14, 02:20 PM
You're forgetting about the "up" and "down" of the circle.

It says they are thrown to the nearest edge, not to the nearest point not inside it.

The edge of a circle does not include 'up' or 'down'.


Ok. Now let's for the sake of argument say that the Locate City Bomb does "target" the nearest city. Even then the target isn't every creature and object within the circle, it's the city as a whole. You deal 2 damage to a city, which consists of hundreds if not thousands of buildings. How many hp does that add up to in total? Millions? You deduct 2 hp from an mind-boggling large number of hitpoints. Make sure to consider the combined hardness of all objects and the fact that objects take 1/2 damage from cold. End result is almost definitely 0 damage.

Why would it be only 2 damage? And what do you mean from cold? Did you forget to apply Explosive Spell?

And what do you mean "combined hardness"? Having twice as much of something doesn't mean you apply twice as much DR.

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 02:25 PM
You know, this isn't a bad idea for a winter campaign. Someone goes Wightpocalypse way up north where "next nightfall" comes in several months. The dead will be long buried and forgotten before they rise.

Zeful
2010-01-14, 02:58 PM
It says they are thrown to the nearest edge, not to the nearest point not inside it.

The edge of a circle does not include 'up' or 'down'.

Then the spell doesn't work. A circle cannot exist in a three dimensional universe without a depth, so the area is non-existent. With no area, the spell does nothing. It's simply a waste of spellbook pages/spells known.

Text may trump table, but as per the DMG: Unless otherwise specified, the material plane acts like the real world does. 2 dimensional objects don't exist in the real world, even lines have height, width, and depth.

I'll say what I said at the beginning of the thread. Locate City was not meant to be used in this fashion, when they say "Circle" for the area, they mean the figure you'd draw on a map, because that is what makes sense. Trying to turn it into a massive save or die is as deliberately an abuse of the system as saying that Iron Heart Surge can put out the sun. It does not improve the game in any fashion except for those that ignore the rules anyway.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-14, 03:02 PM
I'll say what I said at the beginning of the thread. Locate City was not meant to be used in this fashion, when they say "Circle" for the area, they mean the figure you'd draw on a map, because that is what makes sense. Trying to turn it into a massive save or die is as deliberately an abuse of the system as saying that Iron Heart Surge can put out the sun. It does not improve the game in any fashion except for those that ignore the rules anyway.

How do you draw a circle above ground and below on a map? Maps are usually representing the ground.

Lysander
2010-01-14, 03:18 PM
It says they are thrown to the nearest edge, not to the nearest point not inside it.

Why would it be only 2 damage? And what do you mean from cold? Did you forget to apply Explosive Spell?

And what do you mean "combined hardness"? Having twice as much of something doesn't mean you apply twice as much DR.

Explosive Spell requires that the subject fail a reflex save. Born of Three Thunders requires a reflex save only if they fail a fortitude save, and the fortitude save is only required if they take damage.

The frost only deals 2 damage, which I think would be negated to 0 by hardness. Without causing damage Born of Three Thunders doesn't do anything.

And even if the city does take 2 damage, what do you think the fort save of a city is? Can a city fail a fortitude save? Would it even be required to make one in the first place?

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-14, 03:31 PM
T

Text may trump table, but as per the DMG: Unless otherwise specified, the material plane acts like the real world.

Oh? Can I get a page number please? I could use that info :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

kentma57
2010-01-14, 03:34 PM
Text may trump table, but as per the DMG: Unless otherwise specified, the material plane acts like the real world does.

But then the pesant rail gun would work... sort of... well at leats the momentum part.

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-14, 03:43 PM
If it targets the city, an object that large must have a negative reflex modifier of some sort, so the city gets blasted to the edge of the spell's radius. Even better.

Lysander
2010-01-14, 03:54 PM
If it targets the city, an object that large must have a negative reflex modifier of some sort, so the city gets blasted to the edge of the spell's radius. Even better.

But it doesn't need to make a reflex save unless it fails a fortitude save. And as an object it might not need to make a fortitude save. And if it did, boy, what a modifier!

Starbuck_II
2010-01-14, 03:54 PM
unattended non-magical Objects have Dex mod of -5. They usually fail all saves except Fort saves (unless spell affects objects).

JaronK
2010-01-14, 04:14 PM
Text may trump table, but as per the DMG: Unless otherwise specified, the material plane acts like the real world does. 2 dimensional objects don't exist in the real world, even lines have height, width, and depth.

Yes, but Text specifies that it's a sphere, while the table says it's a circle. Therefor, it's a three dimensional object, not a two dimensional object.

And obviously this is not the intended use of the spell. This is just seeing what the rules can do. It's not meant to be used in real games.

JaronK

nyarlathotep
2010-01-14, 05:13 PM
Yes. But when you kill a swarm 100,000 of spiders with negative levels, you get a single wight.

When you kill 100,000 individual spiders with negative levels, you get 100,000 wights.

What's the conversion ratio of Spiders to Wights?

Plus, you know, you've got a single, Fine spider that turns into a medium undead ... or a Colossal Titan that turns into a medium undead.

You know, Wight should probably be a template... as should Shadow, Spectre, and other self-replicating undead....

wight is a template it's just only in savage species

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-14, 08:50 PM
Trying to turn it into a massive save or die is as deliberately an abuse of the system as saying that Iron Heart Surge can put out the sun. It does not improve the game in any fashion except for those that ignore the rules anyway.

Some random mook using Iron Heart Surge to destroy the sun doesn't make for interesting campaign fodder. Some mad wizard causing massive destruction over large areas? That's fodder many campaigns will happily be sustained by.

But you're right, this is madness.

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 09:07 PM
Some random mook using Iron Heart Surge to destroy the sun doesn't make for interesting campaign fodder. Some mad wizard causing massive destruction over large areas? That's fodder many campaigns will happily be sustained by.

But you're right, this is madness.
Madness?

THIS. IS. Perfectly reasonable compared to tricks like Pun-Pun or the 1d2 Crusader, if you think about it.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-14, 09:11 PM
287508766864968263 is greater than 82797268366243, which is greater than 90257522275. Pun-Pun is more insane than 1d2 crusader which is more insane than Locate City Bomb.

They're all still mad.

JaronK
2010-01-14, 09:17 PM
287508766864968263 is greater than 82797268366243, which is greater than 90257522275. Pun-Pun is more insane than 1d2 crusader which is more insane than Locate City Bomb.

They're all still mad.

Yet the Locate City Bomb could make for an interesting campaign twist (crazy Wizard blows up the most powerful country in the world, holds all other countries ransom, and the PCs must take out the Wizard before he makes good on his threat). Pun Pun mostly only works as an overdeity of exploits (if you break the game, he sends a Nut Pun to make you stop). The 1d2 Crusader... I dunno, I have a tough time seeing how that could be useful for a campaign.

JaronK

Lysander
2010-01-14, 09:17 PM
Some random mook using Iron Heart Surge to destroy the sun doesn't make for interesting campaign fodder. Some mad wizard causing massive destruction over large areas? That's fodder many campaigns will happily be sustained by.

But you're right, this is madness.

There's already a city-destroying spell for wizards: Rain of Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/rainOfFire.htm)

JaronK
2010-01-14, 09:22 PM
And Apocalypse From the Sky. But neither of those can destroy a nation.

Wait, you could do an awesome setting! Locate City is blocked by ground, right? You know how in so many settings the dwarfs are always underground dying out while humans thrive? So make a setting where a massive Locate City Nuke war wiped out all surface civilizations. Now everybody's hiding underground. The dwarfs are holed up in their cities because they don't want to deal with all the refugees (though they still have a bunch and are trying to repress them so the dwarfs still maintain control of their areas). Most other races are fighting in the underdark against Mindflayers and Drow to claim territory and rebuild their civilizations. The surface is a no man's land... any time anyone tries to establish a decent sized settlement, someone bombs it, so the only surface settlements that survive are ones that are partially buried (like the hobbit village in Lord of the Rings), enough to block the spell.

Man, there's potential here.

JaronK

Drakevarg
2010-01-14, 09:29 PM
Heh, I set off a bombshell here, didn't I?

Question: Would it be possible to develop localized explosives by doing this to, say, Locate Creature?

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 09:39 PM
Heh, I set off a bombshell here, didn't I?

Question: Would it be possible to develop localized explosives by doing this to, say, Locate Creature?
The entire appeal is that it hurts a wide field, because it deals damage through the movement across it. A smaller radius would result in a significant decrease in damage.

Drakevarg
2010-01-14, 09:41 PM
I see. So you couldn't jusy use it to make somebody 20 miles away spontaneously pop... oh, well.

What book is all this from again? Complete Arcana?

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 09:42 PM
I see. So you couldn't jusy use it to make somebody 20 miles away spontaneously pop... oh, well.

What book is all this from again? Complete Arcana?
The components are from different places. Locate City is from Races of Destiny, for one.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-14, 09:53 PM
Locate City: Races of Destiny
Snowcasting: Frostburn
Flash Frost Spell: Player's Handbook II
Energy Admixture: Complete Arcane
Born of the Three Thunders: Complete Arcane
Explosive Spell: Complete Arcane
Fell Drain: Libris Mortis

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-15, 06:53 AM
Isn't it Energy Substitution? If Flash Frost is applied before BottT, it should be fine.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-15, 07:38 AM
And Apocalypse From the Sky. But neither of those can destroy a nation.

Wait, you could do an awesome setting! Locate City is blocked by ground, right?

JaronK

Kinda. It detects underground cities too but there must be a hole/cave that is open. It can't detect through solid surfaces.

2xMachina
2010-01-15, 07:56 AM
Hmm, would a wall covering the entire city stop it? Provided the gates are closed, there is a solid ring around the city.

I always though LCB blew up the entire area, not just the city. Something like:

"LCB!" and 10+ mile radius around me goes "BOOM!"

Jack_Simth
2010-01-15, 08:11 AM
The entire appeal is that it hurts a wide field, because it deals damage through the movement across it. A smaller radius would result in a significant decrease in damage.
Mind you, as the additional damage from Explosive Spell is based on a unit of something like "per ten feet of distance traveled" (or some such), it doesn't much matter. With the smaller distance of 1,000 feet vs. ten miles? Well.... does it really matter if you got hit with 100d6 (avg 350) or 100000d6 (avg 350000) if you only have 150 hp? In either case, you're rather thoroughly dead.

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-15, 08:28 AM
@Machina: Only if the wall formed a complete shell. If it has any LoE of X0 miles or less (a path you could take while flying with perfect maneuverability.)

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-15, 11:09 AM
@Machina: Only if the wall formed a complete shell. If it has any LoE of X0 miles or less (a path you could take while flying with perfect maneuverability.)

So like a dome? Oooh that would be cool! A city so afraid of a LCB that they have become shut-ins in a huge dome. You could either be smugglers who are sneaking in contraband through some long forgotten ruins under it, or working with the law to uncover a dark magi who has snuck in and intends to set off a LCB from the inside!

And just think how nasty such a city would become too. Clean water and fresh air would be luxuries

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-15, 01:56 PM
Difficult...a rabbit tunnel would be enough to let it work. Or a single casting of Disintegrate, probably.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-15, 10:05 PM
LCB requires no less than 5 feats and has a good chance of destroying the caster, especially if he's pimped his save dc's. It would actually only be usable by a relatively weak, but nevertheless high level caster. I really don't see any problem with this combo.

I find it kind of ironic that the caster with the best chance of surviving his own LCB is the one with the lowest casting stat, which raises the chances of survival for all of his intended victims :smallbiggrin:

Signmaker
2010-01-15, 10:14 PM
LCB requires no less than 5 feats and has a good chance of destroying the caster,

You're...kidding, right?

Summon any physical obstruction. Wall of Ice, Wall of Force, whatever. Take a total of 1d6 for the standard LCB.

So...no.

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-15, 10:14 PM
Since locate city works just like a spread (since it goes around corners), doesn't that mean that creatures hit by the bomb would actually be hurled around objects and barriers if there's room for it to do so?

After all, the shortest distance to the edge of the spell might just be through that long winding tunnel.

Signmaker
2010-01-15, 10:16 PM
Or does Explosive Spell specify a straight line?

It more or less does. You don't follow the 'path' of the spell, you pick the closest edge and head straight there. If you're hit by a wall, that's where you stop.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-16, 11:21 AM
You're...kidding, right?

Summon any physical obstruction. Wall of Ice, Wall of Force, whatever. Take a total of 1d6 for the standard LCB.

So...no.


Since locate city works just like a spread (since it goes around corners), doesn't that mean that creatures hit by the bomb would actually be hurled around objects and barriers if there's room for it to do so?

After all, the shortest distance to the edge of the spell might just be through that long winding tunnel.

Also, what guarantee do you have that you picked the right side for your conjured obstruction? If you're the center, then the nearest edge is equidistant in all directions from you. You have either a 3 in 4 chance of being blasted the wrong way or you've closed yourself in a dome and only blow yourself up.

EDIT: 4 of 5 chance, I forgot about up.

EDIT 2: on the bright side, if you do blast yourself straight up you only take 20d6 from falling back to the ground, unless the dm models his world after reality close enough for you to have blasted yourself out of the atmosphere, then you get exposed to a vacuum and solar radiation...... oops.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-16, 11:31 AM
EDIT 2: on the bright side, if you do blast yourself straight up you only take 20d6 from falling back to the ground, unless the dm models his world after reality close enough for you to have blasted yourself out of the atmosphere, then you get exposed to a vacuum and solar radiation...... oops.

Necklace of Adaptation protects you from that.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-16, 11:36 AM
Necklace of Adaptation protects you from that.

And I suppose fly can get you back down, but what about atmospheric re-entry?

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-16, 11:42 AM
And I suppose fly can get you back down, but what about atmospheric re-entry?

Extended featherfall.You won't burn up if you go slow.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-16, 01:15 PM
Extended featherfall.You won't burn up if you go slow.

You'd have to burn quite a few of those, no pun intended :smalltongue:

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-16, 01:18 PM
You'd have to burn quite a few of those, no pun intended :smalltongue:

Only one whenever you start to hit terminal velocity. Other than that, Free fall can be fun :smallsmile:

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-16, 02:41 PM
Only one whenever you start to hit terminal velocity. Other than that, Free fall can be fun :smallsmile:

I hate to harm catgirls like this but, the thermosphere takes a pretty big chunk of the upper atmosphere and temperatures can reach as high as 1500 degrees Celsius. Barbecue nuclear mage anyone?

Signmaker
2010-01-16, 02:42 PM
Also, what guarantee do you have that you picked the right side for your conjured obstruction? If you're the center, then the nearest edge is equidistant in all directions from you. You have either a 3 in 4 chance of being blasted the wrong way or you've closed yourself in a dome and only blow yourself up.

EDIT: 4 of 5 chance, I forgot about up.

EDIT 2: on the bright side, if you do blast yourself straight up you only take 20d6 from falling back to the ground, unless the dm models his world after reality close enough for you to have blasted yourself out of the atmosphere, then you get exposed to a vacuum and solar radiation...... oops.

Try 0/27. Assuming you're on the ground like any sensible person:

Hemisphere

The wall takes the form of a hemisphere whose maximum radius is 3 feet + 1 foot per caster level. The hemisphere is as hard to break through as the ice plane form, but it does not deal damage to those who go through a breach.

This is ignoring the fact that you can change the direction of the wall. Walls of X aren't necessarily straight. Additionally, if you're arguing that a hemisphere stops the spell from expanding, how, pray tell, does it work in a city? There are obstructions everywhere.

Grumman
2010-01-16, 02:56 PM
Additionally, if you're arguing that a hemisphere stops the spell from expanding, how, pray tell, does it work in a city? There are obstructions everywhere.
The spell goes around corners, that doesn't mean it can go through walls.

Flickerdart
2010-01-16, 02:59 PM
The spell goes around corners, that doesn't mean it can go through walls.
Adamantine icepick, carve holes that are just large enough to not let you through.

Signmaker
2010-01-16, 03:00 PM
Adamantine icepick, carve holes that are just large enough to not let you through.

Alternatively, if you're really THAT desperate for a spell that automatically does it for you, Forcecage.

It's...really not that hard to keep yourself from blowing up.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-16, 03:01 PM
Try 0/27. Assuming you're on the ground like any sensible person:


This is ignoring the fact that you can change the direction of the wall. Walls of X aren't necessarily straight. Additionally, if you're arguing that a hemisphere stops the spell from expanding, how, pray tell, does it work in a city? There are obstructions everywhere.

If you're inside a hemispherical wall of stone you no longer have line of effect to anything outside of your little dome. How do you figure 0/27? I'm guessing the 27 is arbitrary since 0/anything is still 0. Like I said, if you're in the exact center of the spell's AoE how do you determine which direction you're blasted in? The blast could send you directly away from your conjured wall no matter where you position it unless you position it such that it's on all sides in which case you've trapped the explosion with a little dome.

Signmaker
2010-01-16, 03:20 PM
If you're inside a hemispherical wall of stone you no longer have line of effect to anything outside of your little dome. How do you figure 0/27? I'm guessing the 27 is arbitrary since 0/anything is still 0. Like I said, if you're in the exact center of the spell's AoE how do you determine which direction you're blasted in? The blast could send you directly away from your conjured wall no matter where you position it unless you position it such that it's on all sides in which case you've trapped the explosion with a little dome.

Forcecage. Problem Solved. Alternatively, just pay a carpenter money to build yourself a cage, which you attach to a building.

Jayabalard
2010-01-19, 10:19 AM
"You sense the distance and direction to the nearest community of a minimum size designated by you at the time of casting. For instance, you could choose to find the nearest community at least as large as a village, or you could choose to locate only the nearest metropolis. This spell measures the distance to the “nearest” community as the minimum distance one would have to travel to reach the city without moving through solid objects. Thus, a caster on the surface isn’t likely to locate a subterranean city half a mile beneath his feet, even if the next closest community is 5 miles away overland."

That's pretty darn clear. Remember that text always trumps table. Also, the range is given in the spell. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, so I'm not sure how it can be clear. Nothing that you've quoted here suggest that anything other than you ("You sense") and a celestial geodatabase are affected by the spell.


Nowhere does the spell list a target, it simply says the area is centered on you. In fact the word "target" is not even in the spell description.It's also not in the text of mine that you quoted.

term1nally s1ck
2010-01-19, 12:03 PM
The table specifies AoE: Circle, so it has an AoE. The text is ambiguous, as it describes a target (you/the city) and the AoE. So Table is more specific and states the AoE, and the Text describes what the AoE actually is.