I Just Beat Bioshock... and I Didn't Like it. [Archive]

Starfols

2010-01-12, 10:47 PM

Don't get me wrong, it has good characterization, was very atmospheric, and had stunning art direction. It's got a great story that deals with pretty mature philosophical stuff, and has advanced the credibility games as an art form by leaps and bounds. Only problem is, it isn't a very good FPS.

Woah! I'm gonna have to qualify that.

I thought the pacing, balance, and level design were awful, and the combat was average at best. Let me talk about the level design first. The design is realistic (that is, it looks like people would live there), it's that it got pretty repetitive; at the beginning, I was like, "ooh, the rooms have wood paneling! That's original for a current-gen FPS". At the end of the game, I was saying, "Ergh, wood paneling, I'm not going to remember how to get back to this room". The problem is that there aren't many landmarks, and all the rooms are heavily shaded, so the distinctive parts generally don't stand out. This problem was only compounded by the least helpful map system in an FPS I have ever seen. I doubt I would've made it through the game if it hadn't been for that lovely floating arrow on most missions.

The pacing was another problem. At the beginning, I had barely any ammunition of any kind, and had to beat the large majority of my enemies with the wrench, and abuse the crap out of the vita-chambers. By about halfway through the game, I had the maximum of everything you could carry, ammunition, EVE, materials, money; but the limits on how much you can have is so low that you still have to conserve what I wanted to use later. For a lot of the game, I ended up fighting big daddies by surrounding them with proxy mines, tripwires, or napalm, because I couldn't carry any more, and there was a pile of them nearby. By far the most annoying was that you could only carry 9 medkits. It's such a small number, and you burn through them so fast, it's more efficient to let splicer kill you over and over so you can save them for big daddies.

[A quick aside: I suppose I could've only used the ammo I wanted to, but ammo/health/useful stuff hunting instincts, gained from playing many other "great FPS games :smallbiggrin:", forced me not to. I knew the vita-spam I would be forced to endure should I run out, and I suppose I'm just naturally a pack rat.]

On to my next complaint, the balance. The amount of damage between the weapons and between the enemies is way off. First off, the machine gun, chemical thrower and pistol are crap (with the exception of anti-personal pistol rounds, which kill all splicers in 1-2 hits, for some bizarre reason). Any given fight can be finished faster and with more health left over if you use the wrench. Almost every plasmid except a small few are also crap (and yes, I used them all).
The enemies are also a pretty big problem. There are 5 types of splicers, 2 big daddies, turrets and flying sentry guns. That's a fine number, and it's expected that some will be more powerful than others, but not to the extent Bioshock takes it. The flying sentry guns do little enough damage that they can be ignored, and Houdini Splicers, while they make an interesting fight on their own, are almost always a last priority target. On the other side is the Big Daddies, who will kill you in 2-3 hits, every time. This might be okay if you could carry more than 9 medkits, or if you didn't have to press a button to heal every time, but as it stands, I was vita-spamming my way through crowds of splicers, because I didn't want to use my precous medkits. The actual big daddy fights were pretty unsatisfactory too, and if I died while fighting a big daddy, It is likely he will dismiss the little sister while you respawn, so the whole combat was a waste :smallfurious:.

Finally, the combat. It doesn't help that a third of the weapons weren't worth using, and another third was too valuable to use, but the combat itself wasn't all that varied, either. Each level tends to strongly spam one or two kinds of splicer, and most every combat is in a hallway or some similarly dimensioned area. There were cool parts (I think my favorite scenario was when Sander Coehn spawns a million Spider Splicers charging you at once), the core combat was repeated far too much. Most of the guys will just charge you in melee, anyway. Even the combat engine itself isn't that great. Most of the attacks you can do create these massive billowing dust clouds, and it all seems pretty hectic and disorienting to me. The enemies do have a strategy of surrounding me (or maybe they spawn in the places I have my back turned), which is a good strategy IRL, but in the game, it was only annoying; I took lots of damage in encounters where I shouldn't've, and I couldn't use medkits they were too valuable :smallmad:.

All in all, I give it a C or C+. I would personally recommend they fix the health issues, and make into a top-down third person shooter like Shadowgrounds. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowgrounds) The TD3PS format would fix most or all the combat issues (enemy/map awareness, freedom of movement), and preserve the atmosphere/item-scavenging elements.

Whew! Glad I got that out of my system :smallsmile:.

What say you, Playgrounders? Are my complaints valid? Am I doing it wrong? Are the reviews wrong? Please discuss.

Callos_DeTerran

2010-01-12, 11:30 PM

First off, the machine gun, chemical thrower and pistol are crap

This statement alone makes me wonder how you were using these weapons. The chemical thrower with the upgrade that you get more mileage from your ammo and lightening gel...well...a single 'round' of ammo will kill an Elite Big Daddy without you ever taking a hit. Maybe leave it with enough health left you need to zap it with the electricity plasmid and shoot it once or twice. It also likewise makes the final boss an utter cakewalk. :smallconfused: How did you arrive at the conclusion that the chemical thrower is crap?

deuxhero

2010-01-12, 11:34 PM

Now go play System Shock 2 and like it.

MrPig

2010-01-12, 11:50 PM

Now go play System Shock 2 and like it.

Agreed. BioShock took System Shock 2 and made it terrible.

Alleine

2010-01-12, 11:51 PM

What difficulty and tactics did you use? I played on Normal and had almost none of the problems you seem to have had. Especially none of that vita-spam. I literally died only a handful of times, though there were many more where I was clinging to life by a thread.

I have to agree with you on the lighting though. I hated the lack of light in many areas, but I admit to being an info whore. Seeing everything and knowing where the enemies are exactly is what I can't stand not knowing. Even so, I got used to it and it wasn't THAT big of a problem.

But the map. The map was terrible. No arguments there.

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-13, 12:05 AM

I, too, experienced none of the problems that you're describing. Hell, I played through most of the game on normal using the pistol as my primary method of attack and I didn't die once.

How did you approach combat? How did you choose to use your weapons? What plasmids did you take advantage of? All of these factor into how the game plays. Me, I'm a stealthy kind of guy. One in the head makes 'em dead, and I prefer to do so from as far away as humanly possible (the crossbow was my beeeeeest friiiieeeend. Did you tailor your ammunition to the enemy? Electric buckshot is a great way to kill Big Daddies. Did you take advantage of your environment (water, oil, telekinesis)? Hack healing stations so that enemies couldn't use them? All simple, easy tactics which take little effort for maximum reward.

You can also conserve medkits by using bandages or hacked healing stations. Even better, if you can't afford a healing station, it'll puke medkits if you smash it or light it on fire.

Bottom line - Bioshock is only as difficult as you make it.

(On the subject of System Shock II, I consider Bioshock to be a worthy spiritual successor).

Cubey

2010-01-13, 12:22 AM

While 25% of your complaints are valid (repetetive enemies and surroundings - although I disagree with the former), the other 75% is just going on about how the game is difficult. If you found it too tough, perhaps you should have just played it on an easier difficulty? Most Bioshock players actually find the game too easy for themselves, so you're in the minority here.

Myatar_Panwar

2010-01-13, 12:28 AM

The chemical thrower and pistol were my #1 weapons.

After reading your post I have a feeling you came to some weird conclusions about the game before you started playing it/ came to some rash conclusions after a few seconds of using a gun or plasmid.

The only plasmids I actually found not worthwhile were the security ones. Everything else had a place, and were useful in the right context.

Temotei

2010-01-13, 12:33 AM

The wrench was overpowered. I agree. That was my main weapon, but I did often switch to the shotgun for toughies like big daddies.

Oh. And that camouflage ability you can get? Too good. Just stand there for a few seconds and you're camouflaged perfectly. Cameras ignore you, enemies look around (meaning you can break the glass in some levels, take the items, and go invisible without getting hurt or wasting ammo)...etc.

I liked the game though. I really did. Great atmosphere. I just wish they had made the moral choice less black and white.

Inhuman Bot

2010-01-13, 12:50 AM

I didn't like Bioshock.

....Okay, thanks for shareing? :smallconfused:

AgentPaper

2010-01-13, 12:50 AM

I myself didn't really see all that much worthwhile in Bioshock either, but for mostly different reasons. The repetitive surroundings and enemies was definitely there, but my main gripe is that it didn't seem to be able to decide if it was a really creepy horror game where you never really knew what was out there and were always a breath away from certain death, aka the opening sequence, (which was very well done, and extremely effective in making me s**t my pants in terror, BTW) or a run and gun shoot-em-up with a variety of flashy weapons and powers, aka much of the rest of the game.

Every once in a while you'd have a part where the game would seem to suddenly realize that it's trying to be a creepy horror game, the lights would dim, and some spooky sound effects would play in the background, but then not 30 seconds later you would be running around shooting at the hordes of enemies in a relatively brightly lit room. I mean, I could see a horror game with action-FPS elements, (Resident Evil 4) or an action-FPS game with horror elements, (Halo, when dealing with the flood) but you can't just jerk back and forth between them every other minute and call that good gameplay. :smallyuk:

The Big Daddies were also a bit of a let-down. You get introduced to them, and they're this big, mean nasty thing that YOU DO NOT MESS WITH, IN CAPITAL LETTERS, and then in the very next area, not two minutes after being shown how you shouldn't mess with them, you're presented with a big daddy, just waltzing around not really bothering you or anything, and you can just shoot it dead without much trouble at all, if you're any good at dodging it's attacks. Why exactly did they go to so much trouble to show how badass these guys are, to then make them barely more dangerous than normal mobs? :smallconfused:

Of course, that's not to say there aren't good points about the game, for example it's story is fairly solid, original, although except for one (very well-done) twist, it is a bit straight-forward. The voice acting and graphics are above average, the setting itself and the levels have a good feel to them, even if it is the same feel throughout the entire game. Overall it's a fairly mediocre game. Nothing special, but not really horrendous either. Definitely severely over-hyped, though, though not quite as much as, say, Halo*. :smalltongue:

*Note that I think that Halo is a very good, solid game, it's just that it's hype is so absurd that very little else** can really compare.

**Spore.

Catch

2010-01-13, 12:56 AM

Oh. And that camouflage ability you can get? Too good. Just stand there for a few seconds and you're camouflaged perfectly. Cameras ignore you, enemies look around (meaning you can break the glass in some levels, take the items, and go invisible without getting hurt or wasting ammo)...etc.

This, Electro Bolt and wrench tonics obviated my use for traditional weapons, though I preferred using electric buck against Big Daddies. Funny how the most effective tools are handed to you in the first level.

Artanis

2010-01-13, 01:00 AM

Myatar_Panwar

2010-01-13, 01:05 AM

Every once in a while you'd have a part where the game would seem to suddenly realize that it's trying to be a creepy horror game, the lights would dim, and some spooky sound effects would play in the background, but then not 30 seconds later you would be running around shooting at the hordes of enemies in a relatively brightly lit room. I mean, I could see a horror game with action-FPS elements, (Resident Evil 4) or an action-FPS game with horror elements, (Halo, when dealing with the flood) but you can't just jerk back and forth between them every other minute and call that good gameplay. :smallyuk:

Every area had its one little bit of horror. And it was persistent.

The hosbital was full of horror moments. The flooded room, the "frozen" area with the disappearing doctor, the overall disturbing boss and what he wrote on the wall/audio tapes he left you.

Sander and his antics, of course.

And you cant tell me that the first time you encountered a Houdini splicer, you didn't just about pee yourself.

There are more, but you get my point. I would also argue that the fights were pretty frightening to partake in most of the time. I never really got comfortable fighting splicers. They just freak me out too much, I guess.

Croverus

2010-01-13, 01:06 AM

I always loved using the crossbow to set up Big Daddy Kill Zones. Put a bunch of trap wires across an a hallway, shoot him with a sniper bolt, and watch the bastard fry :smallamused:

Didn't work too well on Rosies though :smallfrown:

Big Daddies were cakewalks once I established a routine.

Rosies are pain in my @$$ B*****s from hell and I hate them. Their rivet gun tears your health apart, AND they can throw proximity mines. My best way to deal with them was spam electic plasmids and buckshot and telekinesis mines back at them, and pray for somehting to hide behind because their rivet guns are crazy accurate.

Starfols

2010-01-13, 01:19 AM

This statement alone makes me wonder how you were using these weapons. The chemical thrower with the upgrade that you get more mileage from your ammo and lightening gel...well...a single 'round' of ammo will kill an Elite Big Daddy without you ever taking a hit. Maybe leave it with enough health left you need to zap it with the electricity plasmid and shoot it once or twice. It also likewise makes the final boss an utter cakewalk. :smallconfused: How did you arrive at the conclusion that the chemical thrower is crap?

??? I created 300 electric gel ammo at a u-invent, emptied my clip into a big daddy, reloaded, emptied it again, picked up more, emptied that into him and I got him down to maybe 1/3 health.

Now go play System Shock 2 and like it.

I did, the inventory was much nicer :smallsmile:. I got vertigo the first time I played it though.

While 25% of your complaints are valid (repetetive enemies and surroundings - although I disagree with the former), the other 75% is just going on about how the game is difficult. If you found it too tough, perhaps you should have just played it on an easier difficulty? Most Bioshock players actually find the game too easy for themselves, so you're in the minority here.

What I was trying to say is that is was hard for the wrong reasons. I like difficulty. The problem is that what you're allowed to carry is unfairly limited, to the point where it's required to either empty your entire reservoir of anti armor bullets/medkits, and then go try and find a bunch more. The difficulty was fine if I was able to pick up what I find/buy, or failing that, making the big daddies consistent with the rest on the game. Also I mentioned the combat was generally unpleasant, everything was so loud, and the ubiquitous dust clouds made it hard to see/hear what was going on.

I, too, experienced none of the problems that you're describing. Hell, I played through most of the game on normal using the pistol as my primary method of attack and I didn't die once.

How did you approach combat? How did you choose to use your weapons? What plasmids did you take advantage of? All of these factor into how the game plays. Me, I'm a stealthy kind of guy. One in the head makes 'em dead, and I prefer to do so from as far away as humanly possible (the crossbow was my beeeeeest friiiieeeend. Did you tailor your ammunition to the enemy? Electric buckshot is a great way to kill Big Daddies. Did you take advantage of your environment (water, oil, telekinesis)? Hack healing stations so that enemies couldn't use them? All simple, easy tactics which take little effort for maximum reward.

You can also conserve medkits by using bandages or hacked healing stations. Even better, if you can't afford a healing station, it'll puke medkits if you smash it or light it on fire.

Bottom line - Bioshock is only as difficult as you make it.

(On the subject of System Shock II, I consider Bioshock to be a worthy spiritual successor).

Usually I used what I had on hand, But my favorites were the shotgun, crossbow, and maybe the grenade launcher. Oh, and the camera, that was the funnest part.

Electro-bolt/incinerate were good, but telekinesis was my favorite. Although it used so little eve I never really got to use it :smallfrown:. Tried it a couple times, and it was pretty neat. And yes, I did use the anti-squishy bullets on the squishy guys, and vice versa.

I also went for the one shot one kill approach :smallamused:.

I hacked everything with the exception of fewer than 10 cameras and turrets that I blew up.

The chemical thrower and pistol were my #1 weapons.

After reading your post I have a feeling you came to some weird conclusions about the game before you started playing it/ came to some rash conclusions after a few seconds of using a gun or plasmid.

The only plasmids I actually found not worthwhile were the security ones. Everything else had a place, and were useful in the right context.

I used each gun in about equal measure, but I enjoyed some more than others.

I'm not talking about the tonics, I'm talking about the weapon plasmids.

....Okay, thanks for shareing? :smallconfused:

Just thought I'd share :smalltongue:.

Big Daddies were cakewalks once I established a routine.

Rosies are pain in my @$$ B*****s from hell and I hate them. Their rivet gun tears your health apart, AND they can throw proximity mines. My best way to deal with them was spam electic plasmids and buckshot and telekinesis mines back at them, and pray for somehting to hide behind because their rivet guns are crazy accurate.

The Big Daddies were also a bit of a let-down. You get introduced to them, and they're this big, mean nasty thing that YOU DO NOT MESS WITH, IN CAPITAL LETTERS, and then in the very next area, not two minutes after being shown how you shouldn't mess with them, you're presented with a big daddy, just waltzing around not really bothering you or anything, and you can just shoot it dead without much trouble at all, if you're any good at dodging it's attacks. Why exactly did they go to so much trouble to show how badass these guys are, to then make them barely more dangerous than normal mobs? :smallconfused:

The bouncers were okay, when you weren't in a crowded hallway, and move faster than half their speed. Also, there were like, three of them.

But the Rosies.

Oh god, the Rosies.
:smallsigh:

They hold a special place in my heart, right below Ring Man :smallwink:.

*Note that I think that Halo is a very good, solid game, it's just that it's hype is so absurd that very little else** can really compare.

**Spore.
The plot of Halo:CE (the only one I played) was pretty much starship troopers with different guys, but the gameplay was solid. Not the best evar tho.

Every area had its one little bit of horror. And it was persistent.

The hosbital was full of horror moments. The flooded room, the "frozen" area with the disappearing doctor, the overall disturbing boss and what he wrote on the wall/audio tapes he left you.

Sander and his antics, of course.

And you cant tell me that the first time you encountered a Houdini splicer, you didn't just about pee yourself.

There are more, but you get my point. I would also argue that the fights were pretty frightening to partake in most of the time. I never really got comfortable fighting splicers. They just freak me out too much, I guess.

The hospital was my favorite part, I think.

The first time I fought a Houdini Splicer, mostly I was glad that there was another neat miniboss that used actual plasmids against you. I don't think there was anybody like that before him.

I really liked all the quotes from the splicers. They started noticeably repeating themselves by the end, but "AN INTRUDER! HE'S UGLY! UGLY, UGLY, UUUGLY!" and "There's semen on EVERYTHING! EVERYTHING!!" were in my vernacular for some time.

SS2's hybrids were closer to eerie, but less memorable.

AgentPaper

2010-01-13, 01:25 AM

Every area had its one little bit of horror. And it was persistent.

The hosbital was full of horror moments. The flooded room, the "frozen" area with the disappearing doctor, the overall disturbing boss and what he wrote on the wall/audio tapes he left you.

Sander and his antics, of course.

And you cant tell me that the first time you encountered a Houdini splicer, you didn't just about pee yourself.

There are more, but you get my point. I would also argue that the fights were pretty frightening to partake in most of the time. I never really got comfortable fighting splicers. They just freak me out too much, I guess.

Oh, I'm not saying that they weren't consistent. In fact, I said they were, and that's part of the problem. Not because horror is bad, or even that they did the horror poorly, it's just that you switched between "Tip-Toeing around scared s**tless of what might come and get you" and "sprinting and strafing and unloading clip after clip like there's no tomorrow" all the time, and with seemingly little rhyme or reason. It got to the point where I would sometimes just sprint through an area that was obviously meant to be spooky and that I would normally creep through slowly for fear of whatever was in the dark without even really realizing it until I was almost through it, at which point I would slow down and get caught by surprise as suddenly I was assaulted by all sides and now it was time to run and gun again. :smallannoyed: :smalltongue:

Myatar_Panwar

2010-01-13, 02:05 AM

I guess what I am saying is that I never sprinted in BioShock. Always a bit too afraid of what might pop up from around a pillar.

Mewtarthio

2010-01-13, 02:39 AM

The only plasmids I actually found not worthwhile were the security ones.

I liked using the Security Bullseye on the Big Daddies (ideally, they'd be standing in front of a camera at the time, but it's easy to trigger an alarm yourself in a pinch). What can I say: I enjoy watching other people do the dirty work for me. :smallamused:

Temotei

2010-01-13, 02:46 AM

Worthwhile plasmids?...

Err...worthwhile plasmids? :smallbiggrin:

Myatar_Panwar

2010-01-13, 03:20 AM

Level 3 inferno was pretty awesome. Just snap your fingers and oh everyone is on fire and running around screaming.

Jibar

2010-01-13, 03:41 AM

??? I created 300 electric gel ammo at a u-invent, emptied my clip into a big daddy, reloaded, emptied it again, picked up more, emptied that into him and I got him down to maybe 1/3 health.

What the Hell were you doing?
I never ever emptied my Chemical Thrower without the Big Daddy being dead.

I also went for the one shot one kill approach :smallamused:.

And you didn't use the pistol?
By midgame, I was killing everyone with sniper pistol shots because it's imperiously accurate over any range. When I got the camouflage tonic, I just stood in one place, waited for a Splicer to come by, iron sights...
Bam.
One shot.
One kill.

NeoVid

2010-01-13, 03:43 AM

I liked using the Security Bullseye on the Big Daddies (ideally, they'd be standing in front of a camera at the time, but it's easy to trigger an alarm yourself in a pinch). What can I say: I enjoy watching other people do the dirty work for me. :smallamused:

Someone actually got good use out of Security Bullseye? Huh.

I was annoyed that the more I figured out about the game, the LESS variety of tactics I needed to use. Once I started using Target Dummy during every fight, any danger just evaporated.

The amazingly good setting largely made up for the fact that the gameplay was unimpressive, but the fact that the game's imagination fell asleep during the endings was a huge disappointment.

Still, the setting was memorable enough that I definitely want to see Bioshock 2, but the first ended up being one of the few games I've ever spent money on that ended up kind of disappointing.

Bouregard

2010-01-13, 04:38 AM

From your post I take you didn't research your enemies with the camera.

A single clip of an updated chemlauncher against an full researched big daddy will kill it with maybe ~20 ammo left. On hardest difficult.

And with carefully buttontapping you can take out a big daddy with 20 freezefluid and a rocketturret *g*

The pistol is only useful if you try for headshots. It does insane dmg against splicers and is my primary splicer removal weapon, against big hoards the chicago typewriter. Except for Elite-Splicers in Hepheistos Core everyone dies to 1-2 headshots with the anti personal round if fully researched.

The wrench, while definitly worthy as a dmg weapon, requires you to go into melee. And melee requires huge amounts of medpacks.

Medpacks are big daddy only/huge splicergroups only. You can replenish your health quick enough with food, hacked healthdispensers and with the Hackers Delight hacking will reward Eve and health too.

Big Daddy:
I like the concept of a Big Daddy and I try to use their concept in one of my own gameprojects. Those guys are optional and always a huge ammo sink. And you have to check first if they have a reason to attack them (Little Sister) If you accidently shoot one while battling some Splicers or one runs into a trap not meant for the Big Daddy, it's over those guys pack a huge punch.

Also I really like their art. You should really look at one without a Little Sister, he didn't cares much about the environment, he casually pushs you to the side and ignores pretty much anything.
Now watch him with a Little Sister: He looks around, walks carefully behind her protecting her back and instantly punches you away and threaten you if you soo much as look funny at the little one.

Vita Chambers:
I see them as the Gamedesigners way of saying, "Oh poor little player... didn't manage to beat that guy without the Vitachamber?.... here.... try again." For me, it's humiliating to use. I like to load my old save and try again with enemies at full health.

However in the whole story of Bioshock they are important. They are the reasons the BBEG goes throught all the trouble with Jack. Jack is one of the two persons in the whole game who can use the Vitachambers. Making him virtually immortal and given enough time, unstopable.

If you really want to play the game on hard hard hard play it without research, hardmode and disabled Vitachambers. Trust me, then you'll start to like less useful tonics.

Lord of Rapture

2010-01-13, 04:55 AM

Hmmm... after reading the comments, it seems a lot of the gripes have to do with the gameplay, rather than the environment, which is totally understandable.

Although I do question anyone's tastes who thinks that a piece of crap like Halo can possibly compete with Bioshock. :smalltongue:

Time for my Crazy Bioshock Developer Trolling Theory! :smallbiggrin:

Naturally, SPOILERS!

I think that the dumbed down mechanics from System Shock 2 and the lack of choice regarding the little sisters were actually a thematic choice that actually explains a lot about Bioshock's gameplay decisions.

The game constantly hammers on about choice and whatnot, but in actuality, you have very real little choice about the game world. You can pick up all the weapons, and you can upgrade them all to their maximum efficiency without any difficulty or sacrifice on your part. The choice with the little sisters only determines whether you get ADAM now or later, along with a nifty bonus. Really, the only real choices you are making throughout the game are the plasmids you buy.

Then you get to Ryan's control center/ throne room, where as well all know by now, you find out that you're just a puppet for Fontaine, and you never had any real choice, gameplay and storywise, regarding your actions. But even after that, you still follow someone else's orders, this time Doctor Tenebaum. By that point, I was thinking, "What. The. Heck. Where's my highly touted choice I was promised, you developers you?! :smallfurious:"

And then the rest of the game made me realize that the developers were hammering home the message: "Choice? Are you ****ing kidding us? You never had any choice. All your decisions, all your paths are dictated by someone else. Look at the low-class people Ryan tricked into coming to Rapture. Look how Fontaine swayed them with promises of a better life. Look how he forced Ryan into a corner and forced him to become the very person he hated."

"And gameplay-wise, you don't actually have a choice in the game, or any game for that matter. All you're doing is following the little paths we made for you. Those RPGs you played, those RTS campaigns where you thought you made a difference? Pffft. All you're doing is doing what we allowed for you to do."

It's a very subtle message, but it's hinted through the main philosophy of the game, Objectivism, which is all about choice, the very idea the game is mocking. From the very outset of the game, it is shown that for all the bluster Ryan has about "making our own choices", everyone actually had very little control and choice over their own lives. Ryan became an Objectivist because of the murder of his family by the tsarist regime and the subsequent takeover of the Communists of Russia. Peach Wilkens followed Ryan, and then later Fontaine, over sweet sounding promises of wealth and a better life, only to be shoved into the deep end while their masters enjoyed the fruits of their labor. Fontaine was born and raised in a criminal environment where only the most ruthless survived, turning him into the greedy bastard in the game. And so on. When Ryan was forced into either letting control over the city or over his ideals, that really wasn't a choice at all. That was a choice made by Fontaine that was pushed onto Ryan, and Ryan never really had any choice between the city and his ideals. His experiences and mindset always made him value power over idealism, no matter how much he wants to admit it to himself. This lack of control directly mirrors the lack of control the main character has over his actions in the game. Even when let go of mind control, what choice does the main character have other than follow Tenebaum and kill Fontaine, lest he rot and die, possibly by Fontaine's hands, under the collapsing city's ceilings.

What Bioshock is is a game that pretends to be about "choice" on the surface, but is really pointing out the lack of choice people have in real life.

NeoVid

2010-01-13, 05:26 AM

First off, you should have spoilered a lot of that. Anyway...

That's... pretty impressive, really. I hadn't thought of it in that way at all, and this is a game that provokes a lot of thought about what's really going on.

Though you just reminded me of another of my big complaints: All the unsettling things that started piling up about the main character, such as the instant it hit me that I was now using more plasmids and tonics than any Splicer... and when you're straight-out told by Fontaine and Suchong's records that being made into a Big Daddy isn't reversible but none of that is even an issue in the endings. (I assume, having only seen two of the endings.)

Lord of Rapture

2010-01-13, 06:02 AM

I have two explanations for that:

1. They actually did have an issue, since Jack goes crazy with power in the bad ending, and in the good ending, Jack dies early. Or maybe the opposite, since he is a creation of Tenebaum, and in fact, the plasmids actually slow his growth down back to normal rates for the little sisters to grow up.

2. Being a creation of the scientists responsible for the discovery and usage of ADAM, he is actually designed to be mostly immune to most of the nasty side effects of plasmid use. Suchong and Tenebaum didn't make it public because Fontaine likes addiction and profits, and in the bad ending, it isn't enough to stop him going crazy

GolemsVoice

2010-01-13, 06:19 AM

2. Being a creation of the scientists responsible for the discovery and usage of ADAM, he is actually designed to be mostly immune to most of the nasty side effects of plasmid use. Suchong and Tenebaum didn't make it public because Fontaine likes addiction and profits, and in the bad ending, it isn't enough to stop him going crazy

This could be. After all, Jack was geneticaly designed (and unlike the real world, the scientists in Bioshock can literally DESIGN people like you'd design a car. A few basic necessities, and go wild with the rest!) by Fontaine to kill Ryan, and Fontaine, sure that he would, at all times, have full control over his weapon, wanted his tool to be as efficient as possible. Thus, he could be engineered to not suffer the derangement that other splicers suffered.
And I got the impression that Jack merely looked, smelled and sounded like a Big Daddy, but didn't undergo the conditioning that normal patients are forced to go through. Because the only thing that will remain forever after he takes of the suit and the boots is his altered voice.

Cubey

2010-01-13, 08:25 AM

The canon explanation, as far as I know, is that the most insanity-inducing plasmids and tonics were these that enhanced your appearance and other vanity items. The character uses utility plasmids, which have less of an effect.

Lord of Rapture

2010-01-13, 08:46 AM

742

2010-01-13, 08:59 AM

i completely agreed with the first post until the "had to abuse the crap out of the vita-chambers" part. that tells me someone wasnt playing the game properly* im still with you on most of what comes after though. the "you cant carry anymore armor piercing machine gun bullets, but you can carry 100 more normal ones!" was absolutely infuriating.
also i think the lighting was in its attempt to be a horror game, which wasnt really valid because you had way too much health for any of the enemies to actually be scary.

*you dont hide behind cover in doom/quake and you dont circle strafe where tom clancy is involved.

Artanis

2010-01-13, 10:57 AM

The Vita-Chambers were similar to what they had in the two System Shock games. They were simply a hell of a lot more accessible, making the game that much easier.

As for splicing driving you nuts...

One of the things that caused problems wasn't splicing in and of itself, it was going too far with it. At first, there really weren't that many combat-related "upgrades", and it largely was vanity and convenience stuff. At some point though, having too many splices would start to cause damage...damage which could be fixed with Adam. That caused even more damage, requiring even more Adam to fix causing even more damage and so on, spiraling downwards into mutation and insanity. The war over the Adam forced even MORE splicing, as those who didn't gear up for combat found themselves dead.

Jack was clearly in the early stages of that, what with the "ghosts" and all. However, he hadn't been spliced enough for long enough to really start to degenerate in earnest.

ObadiahtheSlim

2010-01-13, 11:20 AM

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-13, 11:38 AM

The only thing I can concieve of is that your play style is what made the game difficult for you. As has been mentioned before, the pistol is an extremely accurate weapon; the machine gun and the shotgun were my preferred backups to it (for "in-close" work). I only stopped using the pistol once I had the crossbow and then only because it allowed me to engage more powerful enemies at the same range. Even then, the pistol remained viable because its faster rate of fire allowed me to try headshots against moving enemies who were in my face, something I felt that I shouldn't risk with the crossbow.

I never had a problem supplying my powers with Eve, and played through almost the entire game using Incinerate, Electrobolt, and various stealth-enhancing plasmids. Basically, my problem was that, on Normal, the game was too easy; resources were abundant, and I was a creative, sneaky mind.

As far as the dichotomy between shooter/horror - I actually liked it that way. I never felt that any particular area didn't fit the feeling it exuded (open areas were run-and-gun, tight corridors were horror), and the run-and-gun was never /cheesy/. I always felt threatened if I wasn't the one doing the ambushing, which is probably why I did ambushing in the first place.

Still, your mileage will definitely vary.

@The Great and Puissant OP: My suggestion is to change your tack. Find the weapons that suit your style best. If you don't like the pistol, it might be because your aim is a little less than accurate. Try the shotgun instead. If you felt that there weren't enough resources, experiment with sneaking and the wrench. Once you find your groove, the game will no longer suffer the flaws which have lead you to this complaint.

Starfols

2010-01-13, 11:54 AM

Hmmm... after reading the comments, it seems a lot of the gripes have to do with the gameplay, rather than the environment, which is totally understandable.

Although I do question anyone's tastes who thinks that a piece of crap like Halo can possibly compete with Bioshock. :smalltongue:

Time for my Crazy Bioshock Developer Trolling Theory! :smallbiggrin:

**A crazy Bioshock developer trolling theory**

I would say Halo is almost a reverse Bioshock; silly story and decent gameplay. I don't remember if there was an unpleasant weapon/section, because I haven't played it in forever.

But that theory is intriguing. I had dismissed the choice system; it didn't add much, but it didn't change much. Your theory, though makes it sound like the developers were being subtle :smallwink:. I got it late enough that I forgot the choice was part of the hype, but that's pretty deep.

Big Daddy:
I like the concept of a Big Daddy and I try to use their concept in one of my own gameprojects. Those guys are optional and always a huge ammo sink. And you have to check first if they have a reason to attack them (Little Sister) If you accidently shoot one while battling some Splicers or one runs into a trap not meant for the Big Daddy, it's over those guys pack a huge punch.

Also I really like their art. You should really look at one without a Little Sister, he didn't cares much about the environment, he casually pushs you to the side and ignores pretty much anything.
Now watch him with a Little Sister: He looks around, walks carefully behind her protecting her back and instantly punches you away and threaten you if you soo much as look funny at the little one.

As I said, I love the art direction. The bouncer is one of my favorite designs for an fps enemy.

From your post I take you didn't research your enemies with the camera.

A single clip of an updated chemlauncher against an full researched big daddy will kill it with maybe ~20 ammo left. On hardest difficult.

And with carefully buttontapping you can take out a big daddy with 20 freezefluid and a rocketturret *g*

I got max research on nearly everything, thank you very much.

At the time of the chemical thrower incident I only had damage ++, but still.
However, I didn't upgrade the chem thrower.

The wrench, while definitly worthy as a dmg weapon, requires you to go into melee. And melee requires huge amounts of medpacks.

Medpacks are big daddy only/huge splicergroups only. You can replenish your health quick enough with food, hacked healthdispensers and with the Hackers Delight hacking will reward Eve and health too.

If you really want to play the game on hard hard hard play it without research, hardmode and disabled Vitachambers. Trust me, then you'll start to like less useful tonics.

Yeah, the problem is that 3 of the most common enemies all try to charge you in melee (thuggish splicers run at you, spider splicers run or jump at you fast, and leatherhead splicers get closer to you the longer you shoot at them), and moving from room to room attracts more splicers.

If only you could carry around food, like another game:smalltongue:. Or just more medkits. It really bugs me when there's a room full of health, I pass it by because I'm full, and then fight a big daddy or whatever and have to backtrack to get it (with that awful map, to boot)

i completely agreed with the first post until the "had to abuse the crap out of the vita-chambers" part. that tells me someone wasnt playing the game properly* im still with you on most of what comes after though. the "you cant carry anymore armor piercing machine gun bullets, but you can carry 100 more normal ones!" was absolutely infuriating.
also i think the lighting was in its attempt to be a horror game, which wasnt really valid because you had way too much health for any of the enemies to actually be scary.

*you dont hide behind cover in doom/quake and you dont circle strafe where tom clancy is involved.

Hmph :smalltongue:.

Only in the first parts where you have the wrench and a half clip for the pistol/MG for the first half hour or so.

@The Great and Puissant OP: My suggestion is to change your tack. Find the weapons that suit your style best. If you don't like the pistol, it might be because your aim is a little less than accurate. Try the shotgun instead. If you felt that there weren't enough resources, experiment with sneaking and the wrench. Once you find your groove, the game will no longer suffer the flaws which have lead you to this complaint.

That's the problem, I tried everything. When I had lots of buck/grenades, I would run in screaming. When I had lots of pistol rounds/bolts, I would use stealth. Stealth was fun, but I was put off because the splicers default tactic was to set up ambushes.

The only thing I can concieve of is that your play style is what made the game difficult for you. As has been mentioned before, the pistol is an extremely accurate weapon; the machine gun and the shotgun were my preferred backups to it (for "in-close" work). I only stopped using the pistol once I had the crossbow and then only because it allowed me to engage more powerful enemies at the same range. Even then, the pistol remained viable because its faster rate of fire allowed me to try headshots against moving enemies who were in my face, something I felt that I shouldn't risk with the crossbow.

Maybe I should clarify and say the armor peircing and normal pistol shots weren't helpful. The anti personal bullets were awesome.

GolemsVoice

2010-01-13, 11:58 AM

Jack was starting to go insane the moment he spliced. Remember the ghosts? Normal people don't see things like that. He just didn't splice up enough to really go bonkers. His splicing was only combat and utility stuff, none of that vanity or convenience stuff.

Also note that Jack kills people on a daily basis, so he might have some outlet for his budding madness. Just like the other splicers started killing people when they lost control.

Artanis

2010-01-13, 12:04 PM

I got max research on nearly everything, thank you very much.

At the time of the chemical thrower incident I only had damage ++, but still.
However, I didn't upgrade the chem thrower.

Yeah, that'll do it.

Starfols

2010-01-13, 12:07 PM

Also note that Jack kills people on a daily basis, so he might have some outlet for his budding madness. Just like the other splicers started killing people when they lost control.

I have the feeling jack didn't know what was going on the whole time. "A syringe with glowing blue goop in it? Why don't I stab myself with it?! lololol!" etc.

:smalltongue:

Lord_Gareth

2010-01-13, 12:11 PM

Perhaps I, too, should clarify that I was generally too lazy to use anything but regular rounds.

GolemsVoice

2010-01-13, 12:14 PM

I have the feeling jack didn't know what was going on the whole time. "A syringe with glowing blue goop in it? Why don't I stab myself with it?! lololol!" etc.

The first time he used that syringe made me whince. I've got no fear of Syringes, but the way he RAMMED that thing into his arm (and the needle isn't of the fragile kind) I just shuddered. The needfulness, the craving in this simple motion...

Destro_Yersul

2010-01-13, 12:22 PM

Is it bad that I've played through the game so many times that I can find my way around every level without referring to the map?

Sipex

2010-01-13, 12:23 PM

I was a bit mystified when Jack (that's his name?) stabs himself with the syringe at first with no guidance. That said, after all the information was presented it sort of made sense to me why he might do that.

I think your problem is you didn't play the game how it was meant to be played...and that's at no fault of your own (it's not like the game tells you to be liberal with your resources after all), you played it how it felt right to you and conserved ammunition. Really though, there is always enough cash, medkits, eve and ammo around that if you switch up which resources you drain you'll never get critical on all four.

Some of the plasmids were bloody useless though, the big daddy one drained a whole bar and I constantly had to try and NOT hit the thing when it strafed in my way. Ice would've been useless had it not been for the camera, simply freeze an attacking enemy and you have an instant action shot! Fire was useful after upgrades since hitting splicers with multiple shots killed them pretty quickly and it lit up spider splicers so you could see where they were when they jumped around.

I prefered guns more than the wrench oddly enough, Upgraded Machine Gun being my favourite since it usually had the most ammo lying around...end game pistol did just become a quick headshotting machine for unsuspecting splicers though.

NeoVid

2010-01-13, 06:05 PM

I had no clue the pistol could be useful. I stopped using it the instant I had any other gun.

I was also kind of annoyed that I had the easiest time playing through with a Wrench Lurker build.

And about freezing enemies for action shots... that's an original one, though when I said before that Target Dummy takes all challenge out of the game, I meant all types of challenge. You can hack or photograph things while they're distracted by the dummy.

Mathis

2010-01-13, 07:12 PM

Artanis

2010-01-13, 08:36 PM

There's nothing wrong with disliking Bioshock. It's disliking Bioshock - or any game, for that matter - because you were making it hard on yourself that's a problem.

Pie Guy

2010-01-13, 08:49 PM

I played through Bioshock without getting scared a bit.

A month later, I showed it to my friend. He said it was horror. I replayed the game and got my pants scared off.

Was I the only one who completely missed the point the first time, but still enjoyed it?

Foryn Gilnith

2010-01-13, 09:33 PM

I get that feeling talking to my friend who apparently loved it, and seeing the various posts here. Just sayin'.

Agreed. BioShock took System Shock 2 and made it terrible.

Just to note.

Starfols

2010-01-13, 11:52 PM

I did not care for the godfather.

Is not liking Bioshock and not liking the godfather on the same level of taboo? I get that feeling talking to my friend who apparently loved it, and seeing the various posts here. Just sayin'.

Probably. I'm kind of used to it though, this situation comes up a lot with me.

There's nothing wrong with disliking Bioshock. It's disliking Bioshock - or any game, for that matter - because you were making it hard on yourself that's a problem.

When it comes to games, I'm a huge masochist. I play all sorts of unforgiving, brutally difficult games. Especially lately, there's nothing that keeps me coming back to a game than not being able to beat it. I do, however, want the challenge to be legitimate. I want Bioshock to reward me for good player behavior. Rapture is filled with secret compartments, rooms and hidey-holes, all of which have valuable stuff. This is my reward for exploring the map, etc. However, Bioshock snatches this reward away with its unreasonable carrying capacity; It's like its saying "You can look, but you can't touch."

If you're talking about the difficulty setting, I did hard intentionally, and I knew what to expect. The only thing was, it was inconsistant. The splicer fights are what I've come to expect from a modern FPS on hard. That's fine. The big daddies were simply too inconsistent with the rest of the game. The problem is that you have to save up to fight them, saving resources that would make the rest of the gameplay much more pleasant/consistant, and that's the problem.

If that's not what you meant, what did you mean by that?

Oh, the level design and most of the fighting were still unpleasant btw :smallwink::smalltongue:.

Inhuman Bot

2010-01-14, 02:34 PM

Volthawk

2010-01-14, 02:43 PM

Yeah, the problem is that 3 of the most common enemies all try to charge you in melee (thuggish splicers run at you, spider splicers run or jump at you fast, and leatherhead splicers get closer to you the longer you shoot at them)

Thuggish Splicers: That's the point.

Spider Splicers: They don't just melee, haven't you seen them hang on the ceiling throwing those things at you?

Leadhead Splicers (not 'leatherhead'): Really? I never noticed that, but you could be right.

I didn't find it hard, but I agree about Big Daddies, they were the only things that would kill me A LOT

Destro_Yersul

2010-01-14, 03:28 PM

taking out big daddies was really easy with a bit of planning. A few proximity mines stuck to a canister, some tripwires... If it was a bouncer, it was dead before it reached you. If it was a Rosie, you needed to ambush it somewhere you had a place to hide, so it would come after you.

Starbuck_II

2010-01-14, 03:58 PM

I rather thought the fact that adam gifts seemed better deal than harvesting sisters:

made it a non-choice unless you were a jerk.

Bouregard

2010-01-14, 06:27 PM

I have the feeling jack didn't know what was going on the whole time. "A syringe with glowing blue goop in it? Why don't I stab myself with it?! lololol!" etc.

:smalltongue:

Would you kindly? It's hard to resist friendly questions.

The first plasmid you get, Electrobolt is optional. However if you wait to long Atlas will say "Would you kindly..."

You can actually see this in quite some areas where you have to do some things. After some time your actual radiovoice will "order" you to do it

And usually you will need a EVE hypo in the middle of combat so there isn't exactly much time to carefully set up a transfusion. You want it now!

Pyro

2010-01-14, 10:36 PM

I actually really enjoyed Bioshock. The actual gameplay may not have been up to snuff , but the experience was more than the sum of its parts.

The first time through, I found the beginning levels challenging and fricking scary. (The spider splicer at the very beginning had me running back to the bathysphere every time I took a step forward.) But by the end, I had so much ammo and eve that I could just blast my way through everything. Dealing with Big Daddies, for example, just involved setting tons of trip wires and mines, then baiting him.

The second time, I power gamed it. Full research and buffing my wrench led to me sneaking up behind splicers, smacking them, then disappearing with my concealment tonic. Hell, I beat the final boss solely with a wrench.

NeoVid

2010-01-14, 11:42 PM

I rather thought the fact that adam gifts seemed better deal than harvesting sisters:

made it a non-choice unless you were a jerk.

Yeah, the evil option only ended up with you 40 ADAM ahead for every 3 Sisters, when it seemed like it would be twice as much. Add that to the much better ending you get for being good, and the core choice of the game doesn't work well.

LurkerInPlayground

2010-01-15, 11:32 PM

Here's abusable:

- Hypnotize a Big Daddy with that plasmid you get for being a good guy.

- Pick a fight with another Big Daddy.

- Make sure your Big Daddy wins by eroding the other Big Daddy's health a bit.

- Profit! Your Big Daddy has triumphed. Pick money off the corpse off the defeated Big Daddy and nab the Little Sister.

- Your hypnotic spell over your current Daddy has expired. He is now very weak. Wait for him to pull a Little Sister. Kill him. Double profit!

- Repeat for infinite money and easy Adam.

This raises the question as to why the game developers decided it would be a good idea to give you the power of mind control over their most iconic horror baddie so early in the game.

Lord of Rapture

2010-01-15, 11:49 PM

Honestly, I didn't like System Shock at all.

I mean, if they took away everything related to gameplay, it would be fine.

Bioshock had combat that didn't make me vomit up my lungs, though, so it was, imho, better.

Actually, concering System Shock (2, to be precise), it was the opposite for me.

The shooter+RPG style gameplay was barrels full of fun, and that's something I want to see in more games.

However, it failed to affect me on any thematic or storytelling level.

For being hyped up as "the scariest game evar", System Shock 2 is about as scary as old mushroom soup. Now, I won't say that all games need to have super-awesome graphics to be scary or entertaining, but when all your enemies look like they're made out of lego pieces, and all of your environments are the same blocky corridors from any random science fiction movie, I'm not going to be rocking myself back and forth on the ground with fear. The parts with the ghosts are either completely random or out of the blue that add nothing to the experience or narrative, or they're pure Narm with bad movements and hilariously bad voice acting (cyborg surgery, I'm looking at you). I mean, I see how back when it was made in the 90's, when graphics weren't nearly as good as now, it could be scary, but it certainly hasn't aged well in that department.

Furthermore, the story failed to connect to me on any level. Aliens have taken over the spaceship, insane AI is responsible, go take them out, about sums it up. Sure, the diaries try to add to the suspension and narrative, but ultimately, there's nothing about the story that hasn't already been done. And when the big reveal came about who your support character really was, even if I hadn't been spoiled for it OVER 9000! times, she was so annoying and bossy that had I seen it without knowing, my reaction would have been less "OMG, it's you!" :smalleek: and more, "...Huh. :smallannoyed: At least you're being honest now." And that was when it was hyped for having an even better thematic and storytelling elements than Bioshock, when it could have been taken almost completely from an Aliens movie and there would be little difference.

Don't get me wrong, System Shock 2 is a good game. But that's it, a game. There's nothing there that can make me forget I'm just playing a game, and not really experiencing a world first-hand.

LurkerInPlayground

2010-01-15, 11:57 PM

People will tell you that SHODAN is one of the more memorable video game villains.

Except that her plot to take over the universe is stupid. She's impossible to take seriously. And a hyper-intelligent computer AI is only scary if you give it complete control over every system on a ship.

You wonder how she even created The Many. It doesn't matter how smart you are, you cannot engineer these things if you do not have the resources. It's like trying to build a 747 on a desert island.

Yet SHODAN manages to turn a part of the ship into cyborgs somehow and has a plot to dominate the universe by manipulating the FTL drive or something. And for some reason, nobody thought to put a kill-switch or administrator access on the damn shipboard AI that she's suborned.

Lord of Rapture

2010-01-16, 12:04 AM

Another reason why System Shock 2, no matter what people say, is not scary.

chiasaur11

2010-01-16, 12:12 AM

Thajocoth

2010-01-16, 12:22 AM

There was only one level I ever got lost in. Anywhere else I found to have fairly unique rooms, making navigating pretty easy, so I have no idea what you're talking about there. The only level I got lost in was the one where you're... assembling. This was because of the mirrored design and lack of destroyed things, cracks or even scuff marks in the hallways. I played it mostly just using the old 1-2 punch. 1 if they're far, 2 if they're close. I tried out everything else, but I'm not a huge fan of shooters. I shattered an elite bouncer at one point with just the frozen wrench. Not caring about ammo meant maxing it out, but also not worrying when I see ammo I can't take with me. For me, the game's shine was in things like...

...when you're in the mall and see all these statues in this one room. There's a cache in the corner. You take it, turn around, and the statues are gone. You pause for a few seconds, look back at the cache, then look back at the room... They're all back, in different positions, and facing you. Still not moving. So you just start shooting at them and they attack.

It's the active atmosphere. Stuff like that really makes the game something, you know? That and, really, who hasn't fantasized about creating genetic-level modifying chemicals that could basically augment people, and then ponder what the aftermath of that would be?

Lord of Rapture

2010-01-16, 02:37 AM

She built the Many in the first System Shock, when she DID have control of almost every system on an orbital station. The mess in game 2 is fallout from game 1.

And the only scary if the AI has every system?

Tell that to Durandal. All he started with was the doors.

He's not scary. He got stuck in a complete mind**** of a series that only serves to delve into new, unknown depths of pretension.

Getting stuck in such a nightmare makes you pity someone, not fear.

chiasaur11

2010-01-16, 03:01 AM

He's not scary. He got stuck in a complete mind**** of a series that only serves to delve into new, unknown depths of pretension.

Getting stuck in such a nightmare makes you pity someone, not fear.

Imagine every computer you see having that kind of text displayed from it. And nothing else.

Is that not an image to haunt your nightmares?

Lord of Rapture

2010-01-16, 03:18 AM

Imagine every computer you see having that kind of text displayed from it. And nothing else.

Is that not an image to haunt your nightmares?

No, that's an image that I can only wish for in my wildest dreams. :smalltongue:

Demented

2010-01-16, 03:58 AM

Except that her plot to take over the universe is stupid. She's impossible to take seriously. And a hyper-intelligent computer AI is only scary if you give it complete control over every system on a ship.

Is it?
In 2, she managed to get control of the one thing in the ship that mattered, a faster than light engine capable of altering reality, and had the willingness and ability to exploit it to recreate the universe in her own image. (And the monkeys thought they were so clever using it for faster than light travel...)

That's akin to a psychotic savant getting his hands on the keys to the launch codes of a few hundred nuclear missile silos and a list of the coordinates of all major cities. With the exception that SHODAN won't leave enough left for the Fallout series.

but ultimately, there's nothing about the story that hasn't already been done.

What.

Lord of Rapture

2010-01-16, 04:43 AM

What.

Tell me, what's new about System Shock 2's story. I'd love to hear it.

LurkerInPlayground

2010-01-16, 05:07 AM

In 2, she managed to get control of the one thing in the ship that mattered, a faster than light engine capable of altering reality, and had the willingness and ability to exploit it to recreate the universe in her own image. (And the monkeys thought they were so clever using it for faster than light travel...)
And it comes down to you saying that she gets away with it just because she's so smart. Exactly my point. It's contrived.

Here's this really cheesy way to up the ante. The Many only wants to assimilate Earth. But SHODAN wants the universe!

DRAMA.

And the only scary if the AI has every system?
It's the only way they're a plausible threat.

It's simple. If the AI is hyper-intelligent, prone to insanity and is in a position of power; you put safeguards on it. You leave a way to destroy, shut off or isolate the AI. And you will include multiple redundant failsafes, many of which will be physical mechanisms.

If an AI is hyper-intelligent, prone to insanity but isn't in a position of any significant responsibility; it really can't do much other than sulk a lot.

But putting that aside, I think SHODAN is basically allowed to cheat in order to make her a threat. The crowning moment of this occurs with her FTL shenanigans.

Tell that to Durandal. All he started with was the doors.
Don't they have those little grocery store motion sensors? Why would you use a powerfully sophisticated AI for that?

Demented

2010-01-16, 05:54 AM

Tell me, what's new about System Shock 2's story. I'd love to hear it.
Do I get to dictate that we're referring to published games, rather than the abstract terms of "girl is stranded in deep space, girl is rescued by ship, girl meets boy, girl gives boy cybernetic implants, boy becomes girl's private mercenary in war against girl's expatriated biological experiment over possession of ship, boy is turned against girl by girl's expatriated biological experiment in last throes of its death, girl's enormously ambitious plans for godhood are foiled once again" having existed somewhere in the timespace of human cognition?

And it comes down to you saying that she gets away with it just because she's so smart. Exactly my point. It's balls-to-the-wall retarded. Pretty much anything that exerts work in the universe "bends reality."

Hey, here's this really cheesy way to up the ante. The Many only wants to assimilate Earth. But SHODAN wants the universe!

DRAMA.
Nothing else in SS2 "bends reality". The macguffin in SS2, however, does, to an extent that SHODAN sees limitless potential within it (more so than, say, the entire industrial age) with complete disregard to the laws of conventional physics... Which the macguffin already violated by proving to be capable of faster-than-light travel.

Why is that not even remotely plausible? "It seemed like a good question at the time, your honor."
How does that violate verisimilitude within the context of the game to the point that her plot becomes "stupid"?

Lord of Rapture

2010-01-16, 05:59 AM

Do I get to dictate that we're referring to published games, rather than the abstract terms of "girl is stranded in deep space, girl is rescued by ship, girl meets boy, girl gives boy cybernetic implants, boy becomes girl's private mercenary in war against girl's expatriated biological experiment over possession of ship, boy is turned against girl by girl's expatriated biological experiment in last throes of its death, girl's enormously ambitious plans for godhood are foiled once again" having existed somewhere in the timespace of human cognition?

That's what I'm talking about.

Demented

2010-01-16, 06:51 AM

Erm, which part?
That SS2 did nothing a previous game had not already done, or that SS2's plot is, at its base, nothing but a thinly veiled retelling of some part of Homer's the Iliad?

Lord of Rapture

2010-01-16, 07:06 AM

Erm, which part?
That SS2 did nothing a previous game had not already done, or that SS2's plot is, at its base, nothing but a thinly veiled retelling of some part of Homer's the Iliad?

The part about the story being another rehash of typical science fiction horror stories.

Demented

2010-01-16, 08:08 AM

Hm.

Typical science fiction horror stories for 100.

"Technological god-aspiring girl uses lone surviving human boy on spaceship as pawn in fight against biological hivemind girl."

Artanis

2010-01-16, 09:30 AM

It's simple. If the AI is hyper-intelligent, prone to insanity and is in a position of power; you put safeguards on it. You leave a way to destroy, shut off or isolate the AI. And you will include multiple redundant failsafes, many of which will be physical mechanisms.

If an AI is hyper-intelligent, prone to insanity but isn't in a position of any significant responsibility; it really can't do much other than sulk a lot.

But putting that aside, I think SHODAN is basically allowed to cheat in order to make her a threat. The crowning moment of this occurs with her FTL shenanigans.

Yes, there were failsafes on SHODAN. Quite good failsafes, in fact. Failsafes that worked perfectly well. What started the whole damn mess was that SHODAN's masters got greedy and decided they could make a whole ton of money by removing those failsafes.

In fact, that was the entire reason why The Hacker was there on Citadel Station in the first game. He had been busted, and was brought there to remove the failsafes in exchange for his freedom and some choice hardware upgrades.

LurkerInPlayground

2010-01-16, 05:14 PM

Yes, there were failsafes on SHODAN. Quite good failsafes, in fact. Failsafes that worked perfectly well. What started the whole damn mess was that SHODAN's masters got greedy and decided they could make a whole ton of money by removing those failsafes.
Her masters should have realized that she was responsible for everything on the station.

The logical train of thought here is:
"I should take proper precautions before removing her ethical constraints."

This also raises the question of why she wasn't simply used this way *before* her reprogramming. If AI's are really that smart, why didn't they have a purpose-built science AI with limited powers? Scientists could spend all day using it as a one-man think tank.

Actually, I can simplify this. Why do people make AI digitally responsible for everything anyway? Has nobody heard the term "separation of powers"? This is the most obvious safeguard.

If we are shown that SHODAN is capable of overcoming even physical barriers to do this, it enhances her credibility as a villain.

Nothing else in SS2 "bends reality". The macguffin in SS2, however, does, to an extent that SHODAN sees limitless potential within it (more so than, say, the entire industrial age) with complete disregard to the laws of conventional physics... Which the macguffin already violated by proving to be capable of faster-than-light travel.

Why is that not even remotely plausible? "It seemed like a good question at the time, your honor."
How does that violate verisimilitude within the context of the game to the point that her plot becomes "stupid"?
Because she's not a credible threat anymore and the only way to make her one is to throw her said-McGuffin. She wouldn't be able to up-the-ante otherwise.

I should also mention that I'm expressing the idea that "bending reality" is vague and meaningless. Everything "bends reality." Going to the bathroom alters the configuration of reality. If FTL drive works, it already does so according to undiscovered principles.

You have godhood. Then you have Godhood. SHODAN took it much too literally to take seriously anymore. It's one thing that she's a control freak that needs to have all humans and her own creation under her thumb, so it's reasonably plausible that she leverages herself into a position to go to Earth or have access to a powerful suite of tools that are obviously purpose-built.

But she repurposes a purpose-built engine with no effort at all and reprograms the universe with it. While SHODAN was never particularly in a position to have access to any of it (otherwise she could have easily fought off The Many). I don't care how smart you are, that is the very definition of contrived.

Basically, this is a problem of smart characters being so smart that they don't have to explain to the audience how they got their power.