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View Full Version : How do I make Arcane Swordsages not suck?



Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-13, 12:42 AM
We all know that Arcane Swordsages suck in comparison to Sorcerers and Wizards, but no one's tried to fix this like they have the Unarmed Swordsage. What can we do to make the Arcane Swordsage a playable class?

It seems from looking at the ToB maneuvers mechanic that we will probably have to heavily vet the spells allowed to the Arcane Swordsage since they can basically cast "at will" like the warlock. Is this the right way to start off?

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-13, 12:53 AM
Heavily limit the ASS's 'spell list' to things that aren't broken, and reduce the number you can prepare at one time. Melf's acid arrow is hardly broken, even in the best of circumstances.

Perhaps change the arcane spells to psionic powers and go from there.

Also, don't, under any circumstances, allow metamagic/metapsionics, nor should you allow casting PrCs or many magic items (like rings of wizardry).

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-13, 12:53 AM
Working on it myself.

Bayar
2010-01-13, 12:55 AM
Sorcerers suck b/c they only get a familiar as a class feature, penalties to metamagics, few spells...go with arcane swordsages instead.


We could provide a couple of spells from a couple of spell schools, limit them to level 6 spells, get rid of the light armor proficiencies...

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-13, 12:55 AM
Play a Duskblade or a Spellthief?

Douglas
2010-01-13, 01:00 AM
I made a post on this a while back in a previous discussion. Allow me to quote myself:

As a general guideline, I'd say that direct attack spells and short term self buffs would work pretty well. Maybe give the attack spells an across the board channeled-through-weapon alteration and make them strikes, change offensive buffs to swift action cast/1 round duration to make them boosts, and change defensive buffs to immediate action cast/1 round duration to make them counters.

In fact, I think laying out guidelines like that might actually be all you really need to do. I think any spells that would be broken on an Arcane Swordsage with these alterations would probably be broken for any character.

So, I'd say give your players these guidelines and let them take it from there:
1) Any spell with a casting time of a standard action or less that you would only ever want to use on an enemy can be taken as a strike. It is altered to be melee range and channeled through a weapon. It only works if you hit with a melee attack, and is in addition to the attack's normal damage. If it is an area spell, you are exempt from being hit by it, but your allies are not (unless otherwise specified in the spell) and it is centered on the enemy you hit.
2) Any spell with a casting time of a standard action or less that you would want to cast on yourself to increase your offensive capabilities may be taken as a boost. It takes a swift action to use and has its duration changed to 1 round. Its level must be adjusted for casting time and duration as listed below. It can only target yourself.
3) Any spell with a casting time of a standard action or less that you would want to cast on yourself to increase your defensive capabilities may be taken as a counter. It takes an immediate action to use and has its duration changed to 1 round. Its level must be adjusted for casting time and duration as listed below. It can only target yourself.
4) Spells as boosts or counters have their level adjusted as follows: If a spell's casting time was already a swift or immediate action, increase its level by 1. For each step on the scale from hours to minutes to rounds to 1 round you have to go through to get its duration down to 1 round, reduce its level by 1. Wraithstrike, for example, is already a swift action and already has a duration of 1 round. It gets boosted one level to 3. Mind Blank on the other hand lasts all day. 24 hours -> minutes -> rounds -> 1 round is 3 steps down, so Mind Blank is a level 5 counter that grants immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities for 1 round. If a spell has a duration of 1 minute, like Divine Favor or Giant Size, I'd count that as being in the rounds category.

Addendum: Shapechange or similar spells as a boost or counter cannot be used to gain and use limited uses per day abilities.

I think this is reasonably balanced. Even Time Stop as an 8th level counter seems reasonable to me if it's just 1 round on a character with these limits on his spell selection, so long as you rule that the swift action consumed by the immediate action comes from your next non-Time Stopped round, which I think is RAW anyway. All it would really let an Arcane Swordsage do is either run away a little and leave the maneuver expended or recover maneuvers and take a 5' step, and even the latter option could only be done once per round.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-13, 01:05 AM
I made a post on this a while back in a previous discussion. Allow me to quote myself:Greater Fireburst. 1d10 per caster level, balanced because it's a radius around the caster and any caster in melee like that is in trouble. Under your system, a 9th level Swordsage adds 9d10(50) damage to one hit. How many Rogues can do that at 9th?

wadledo
2010-01-13, 01:09 AM
.........Craven.:smallconfused:

Edit: To make myself a little more clear, TWF, Sneak attack and craven gets that quite easily.

Longcat
2010-01-13, 01:12 AM
Short answer: Tailor their spell list

Long answer: Restrict their access to certain spells such as Celerity, Polymorph or SoDs.

Douglas
2010-01-13, 01:12 AM
Greater Fireburst. 1d10 per caster level, balanced because it's a radius around the caster and any caster in melee like that is in trouble. Under your system, a 9th level Swordsage adds 9d10(50) damage to one hit. How many Rogues can do that at 9th?
Let's see, at 9th a well built sneak attacking rogue will probably be attacking four times (Improved TWF), 5 with haste, for 5d6+9 (craven) sneak attack on each hit in addition to base weapon damage. 5d6+9 averages 26.5, times 5 is 132.5. Also the Swordsage's extra damage is subject to a reflex save for half, with the possibility of evasion, and that number does not include base weapon damage or any other bonuses. Oh, and the Swordsage's single attack may be big but it's the only attack he gets that round.

So no, I do not consider Greater Fireburst a problem as a strike.

FishAreWet
2010-01-13, 01:14 AM
Duskblade spell list.

Darkfire
2010-01-13, 03:34 AM
ToB suggests that abjurations, evocations and transmutations with a range of personal/touch are most appropriate as they're meant to be a like for like replacement for manoeuvres. Given the manoeuvres available to a Swordsage, certain conjurations would also be appropriate (Dimension Door, Summon Nature's Ally) as would certain Illusions (Invisibility, Blur) and spells which cause Constitution damage (Poison is the only one that immediately springs to mind but I'm sure someone will be kind enough to list some others).

Pharaoh: Isn't Saph playing one in the RHoD PBP that you're currently in? Character sheet is here: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=146520

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-13, 03:36 AM
Yes, but I have no idea what agreement she made with the DM as far as spells/schools to take.

Grumman
2010-01-13, 04:22 AM
Duskblade spell list.
Or the elemental spells from the Wu Jen spell list. Being limited to the Duskblade spell list seems a bit too severe - once you get past level 10 you're still giving up hit points for no further benefit.

Saph
2010-01-13, 10:26 AM
Yes, but I have no idea what agreement she made with the DM as far as spells/schools to take.

Spells are picked thematically. I.e. you can pick any spell that does the same sorts of things that a normal Swordsage can do, you just do it WITH MAGIC instead of with swords.

So, self teleportation and invisibility make sense, because swordsages can do that with Shadow Hand. Touch attack spells like Belker Claws and Shocking Grasp fit well, since they map to the Desert Wind fire attacks. Wings of Cover is kind of the equivalent of Zephyr Dodge. Energy resistance is like the Flame's Blessing stance. Mage Armour is the equivalent of the light armour normal swordsages wear. And so on.

Generally the main no-nos were:

a) No long-range stuff - swordsages can't do that.
b) No party buffs - swordsages can't do that either (White Raven is the teamwork school).
c) Nothing that produces a lasting effect except for self-buffs.

Stegyre
2010-01-13, 12:25 PM
c) Nothing that produces a lasting effect except for self-buffs.
And even those should be "stances," rather than maneuvers, which will have the effect of limiting the ArcSS to one at a time.

As noted by others, to make it workable, you really have to go spell-by-spell. This is probably why so little has been done with it: too much investment required for too little return.

If a player came to me, wanting to play an ArcSS, I'd have him (or her) select the spells, and then I'd approve them, case-by-case. I think that would be the least labor intensive, for all involved. It really doesn't lend itself to a homebrew, because it would be too darn big for just one class. (And too variable, from campaign to the campaign, or even character to character.)

Darrin
2010-01-13, 05:55 PM
Play a Warlock. Scribble out "Warlock" on your sheet and write in "Swordsage".

Optimystik
2010-01-13, 06:59 PM
Or the elemental spells from the Wu Jen spell list.

I support this fix, especially since it would make the "attack roll" spells from the Wu Jen list (like Decapitating Scarf) actually worth a damn.