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View Full Version : A thought on Wizards and Fighters [3.5 D&D]



Fortuna
2010-01-13, 02:54 AM
People frequently and accurately point out that wizards are more powerful than fighters. And this is true. They point out that wizards have better utility than fighters. And this is also true. And they point out that wizards scale faster than fighters. And this, too, is true.

But one thing occurs to me: this cannot be the express intention of WoTC. Even if they subliminally hate melee, they must have thought that they were giving them something that might pass for even chances in a very dim light. So what was it?

Fragility? Maybe, but wizards should never be taking damage. That isn't "you aren't optimizing enough," but "you are not playing this class as it was intended to be played."

Damage output? Not likely. Not with maximize and empower out there.

Endurance?

Just possible.

Think about this: at mid-high levels, a wizard goes to sleep with huge numbers of spells left uncast. So why even bother with spell slots? Well, because it gives a nominal limitation.

The question that I put to the playground is this: would it be possible to make the spell slot limits meaningful without losing all the fun of playing wizards etc.? If so, how should it be done?

Signmaker
2010-01-13, 03:02 AM
Are you more or less considering an alteration of Vancian-styled casting?

Regardless, I have both a lack of advice and some advice. I can't really make a suggestion, but only suggest that whatever tooling you conclude is suitable, that it be light on book-keeping. Book-keeping is usually one of the banes of a group, and overcomplicating a system in the attempt to fix it can be as harmful as letting it be.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-13, 03:06 AM
It can't be endurance. Fighters can't heal enough HP to go at it 24/7.

Fortuna
2010-01-13, 03:06 AM
Not necessarily ditching Vance entirely. More thinking along the lines of different spell slot progressions or similar: keeping the idea, but making it work better as a restriction.

2xMachina
2010-01-13, 06:25 AM
They are the Wizards of the Coast. Of course they are biased for wizards. Wizards are the gods of D&D because wizards created it.

Simba
2010-01-13, 06:39 AM
They are the Wizards of the Coast. Of course they are biased for wizards. Wizards are the gods of D&D because wizards created it.

Wizards did not create it, but that's beside the point.

Anonymouswizard
2010-01-13, 06:45 AM
Two ideas:

One: you have memorized 3 fireballs and 1 lightning bolt. Those are your 4 3rd level spells. If you know you need a dispel magic for the next adventure, the town is not going to like you!

Two: have you read dying earth? Wizards are restricted to one spell level, and have spell slots equal to their level+their intelligence modifier.Vancian magic needs more Vance.

2xMachina
2010-01-13, 06:47 AM
Wizards did not create it, but that's beside the point.

Meh, yeah.

Though I suppose I could say (I think) that 3.5 is WoTC's, and Gygax's wizards are less broken.

Runestar
2010-01-13, 09:37 AM
Think about this: at mid-high levels, a wizard goes to sleep with huge numbers of spells left uncast. So why even bother with spell slots? Well, because it gives a nominal limitation.

Spells which probably are useless in a fight anyways. Say I am a 16th lv sorc. Only my higher lv spells (ie: 8th, 7th, maybe 6th) are going to be effective in combat. The rest are likely to be used for utility purposes. You aren't going to be winning fights by plinking enemies with 1st lv magic missiles (too little damage) or charm persons (crappy save dc). They go unexpended usually because you have nothing to spend them on.

I don't think that at mid levels, a wizard can afford to start spamming spells indiscriminately. He may be able to nova if a situation is dire enough, but he likely can't sustain it for more than 1 encounter.

dsmiles
2010-01-13, 09:52 AM
I don't know what to say here...I don't use a WotC-approved magic system to begin with. I use the system from BESM: The Slayers d20. It's so much more fun in my high-magic/action-porn 3.5e campaign world. My 4e world is low-magic/high-technology/action-porn, however.

For those who do not have access to this setting:

The caster doesn't have "spell slots," he/she has "spells known slots." Each spell takes up a certain number of these slots. Each spell has an associated Fortitude save DC that the caster must make in order to cast the spell. If the caster fails the save he/she must make a caster level check (called a control check) to see if he/she loses control of the spell. The save DC for the targets is 10 + 1/5 Fort Save DC + Ability modifier for common spells. For specialist spells, the save is 15 + 1/5 Fort Save DC + Ability modifier. I have converted all of the appropriate DnD PHB/S&S spells, and all of the spells from the Mongoose Ultimate Arcane Spellbook, because the spells in The Slayers were setting specific, and there weren't that many for casters to choose from. Also, there is no Divine Magic, it is all Arcane, just from different "power sources." Common spells come from the caster. Sorcery spells come from demons, Shamanist spells come from nature, and White (Clerical) spells come from the gods (but are still considered arcane spells).

EDIT: Also casters take non-lethal damage from casting spells (representing a fatigue-based system). This is what made me use this system in the first place.

Lysander
2010-01-13, 10:51 AM
I suppose the reason the wizard/fighter balance breaks down is because the DM is too easy on the party. You have the harry the players, put them in dangerous situations, throw big monsters at them non-stop, so that casters do run out of spells. Players just assume they'll get a good night's sleep every night, and have a peaceful hour in the morning over biscuits and coffee to prepare their magic. Bah! What is this, Continental Breakfast & Dragons? Put them in a goblin filled dungeon where every moment is filled with peril and spells are precious commodities to escape otherwise deadly situations, and monsters don't take breaks at night just so your wizard can get his shut eye. I don't even get eight hours of sleep a night and I'm just some guy, not a legendary hero being pursued by the forces of darkness.

dsmiles
2010-01-13, 11:01 AM
I suppose the reason the wizard/fighter balance breaks down is because the DM is too easy on the party. You have the harry the players, put them in dangerous situations, throw big monsters at them non-stop, so that casters do run out of spells. Players just assume they'll get a good night's sleep every night, and have a peaceful hour in the morning over biscuits and coffee to prepare their magic. Bah! What is this, Continental Breakfast & Dragons? Put them in a goblin filled dungeon where every moment is filled with peril and spells are precious commodities to escape otherwise deadly situations, and monsters don't take breaks at night just so your wizard can get his shut eye. I don't even get eight hours of sleep a night and I'm just some guy, not a legendary hero being pursued by the forces of darkness.

+1 to you, sir!

Choco
2010-01-13, 11:05 AM
I suppose the reason the wizard/fighter balance breaks down is because the DM is too easy on the party. You have the harry the players, put them in dangerous situations, throw big monsters at them non-stop, so that casters do run out of spells. Players just assume they'll get a good night's sleep every night, and have a peaceful hour in the morning over biscuits and coffee to prepare their magic. Bah! What is this, Continental Breakfast & Dragons? Put them in a goblin filled dungeon where every moment is filled with peril and spells are precious commodities to escape otherwise deadly situations, and monsters don't take breaks at night just so your wizard can get his shut eye. I don't even get eight hours of sleep a night and I'm just some guy, not a legendary hero being pursued by the forces of darkness.

and another +1, so total of +2!

Though, if you must balance fighters and wizards yourself, you would be better off moving to 4th edition. They did a decent enough job at it there.

kamikasei
2010-01-13, 11:10 AM
On the other hand, if the party are under that much pressure, how are the fighters healing? If the casters can't use their spells to control the situation - teleporting to safety, rope tricking a good night's sleep, etc. - how are the fighters coping at all?

Choco
2010-01-13, 11:12 AM
On the other hand, if the party are under that much pressure, how are the fighters healing? If the casters can't use their spells to control the situation - teleporting to safety, rope tricking a good night's sleep, etc. - how are the fighters coping at all?

Maybe they don't have to. A DM that plays intelligent enemies properly will have them realize (perhaps before they even meet the PC's the first time, via tales of their exploits) that the wizard is the single biggest threat to them, so they will focus all their attacks against the wizard.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-13, 11:22 AM
I suppose the reason the wizard/fighter balance breaks down is because the DM is too easy on the party. You have the harry the players, put them in dangerous situations, throw big monsters at them non-stop, so that casters do run out of spells. Players just assume they'll get a good night's sleep every night, and have a peaceful hour in the morning over biscuits and coffee to prepare their magic. Bah! What is this, Continental Breakfast & Dragons? Put them in a goblin filled dungeon where every moment is filled with peril and spells are precious commodities to escape otherwise deadly situations, and monsters don't take breaks at night just so your wizard can get his shut eye. I don't even get eight hours of sleep a night and I'm just some guy, not a legendary hero being pursued by the forces of darkness.

Hah. Who dies first, the front line guy or the one in back?

Why do you assume spells are limited, but hitpoints are not?

Plus, a single reserve feat makes this entire line of reasoning fail, as I can happily spam nukes all day long, every single round for the investment of a single feat.

Sir Giacomo
2010-01-13, 11:28 AM
Lysander makes a good point here.
Some related ideas:

- the original playing balance is based on fighters providing protection for the wizard's vulnerability on the one hand and wizards providing buffs and magic to enhance the fighter (and of course, both still fight in their respective ways)
- then, however, the notion spread that wizards with rising levels can just do fine with their spells by themselves and no longer need the fighter for protection. They are now seen just as a weak liability, "meatshields" or "big stupid fighter) no longer worthy buffing at all ("leeching off caster power") or just buffing in a pitying, condescending manner (e.g. Treantmonk's GOD and Logicninja's batman guides for wizard class. As such, the deal is off....
- the reasons behind the spreading notion of wizard uber powers can be and have already been discussed intensively. My hunch is that it has also to do with non-core material favouring wizards more and DMs being too soft on wizards (as Lysander pointed out).

To answer the OP in a nutshell: I do not think that an inherent imbalance was put into the game; rather, a different way to play has evolved for many people.

- Giacomo

Tyndmyr
2010-01-13, 11:29 AM
Maybe they don't have to. A DM that plays intelligent enemies properly will have them realize (perhaps before they even meet the PC's the first time, via tales of their exploits) that the wizard is the single biggest threat to them, so they will focus all their attacks against the wizard.

This is why my wizard dresses as a commoner often, and occasionally changes his appearance. There's really no reason you have to make yourself obviously a wizard. Also, not leaving things alive is a great way to minimize tales of exploits.

Of course, stacking miss chances and such gives any caster with a past great ways to deal with being a target as well.

I invite you to find a way to deal with the following persisted set of buffs, taken from my 9th level incantatrix: Fly, Mirror Image, Blur, Prot: Arrows, Shield, Protection against Evil, Vigor, Protection against Good, The four heart buffs. Non persisted buffs that last long the entire day involve permanencied detect magic, Grtr Mage Armor, and the higher version of Resistance from SpC.

Said character is RAW-legal, has been played from level 1 in an actual game, has a wide variety of wands and scrolls on hand together with a reserve feat(lightening), and has 76 hp and 19 AC unbuffed.

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 11:31 AM
Hah. Who dies first, the front line guy or the one in back?

Why do you assume spells are limited, but hitpoints are not?

Plus, a single reserve feat makes this entire line of reasoning fail, as I can happily spam nukes all day long, every single round for the investment of a single feat.

Against mobile, motivated enemies who are willing to use tactics and are aware of which enemy poses the greatest threat?

The biggest threat, unfortunately.

Choco
2010-01-13, 11:34 AM
I invite you to find a way to deal with the following persisted set of buffs, taken from my 9th level incantatrix: Fly, Mirror Image, Blur, Prot: Arrows, Shield, Protection against Evil, Vigor, Protection against Good, The four heart buffs. Non persisted buffs that last long the entire day involve permanencied detect magic, Grtr Mage Armor, and the higher version of Resistance from SpC.

Sure, how about an enemy wizard that is 1-3 levels higher than you, with the following persisted set of buffs, taken from your 9th level incantatrix: Fly, Mirror Image, Blur, Prot: Arrows, Shield, Protection against Evil, Vigor, Protection against Good, The four heart buffs. Non persisted buffs that last long the entire day involve permanencied detect magic, Grtr Mage Armor, and the higher version of Resistance from SpC. :smalltongue:

I am aware that high level wizards played paranoid enough are completely untouchable, and whenever I have a player that does that I throw something like above against them. When they whine about it, I simply ask them how else I am supposed to provide them a RAW legal challenge. I don't get why players do that, not being challenged can't be all that fun. On the other hand, I also don't get why there are DM's that would push players to do that. Vicious cycle there, and makes those types of DM's and players completely incompatible with other, more lax groups.

EDIT: Or if I get pissed enough, casters after casters that spam Disjunction...

Tyndmyr
2010-01-13, 11:34 AM
Against mobile, motivated enemies who are willing to use tactics and are aware of which enemy poses the greatest threat?

The biggest threat, unfortunately.

There is no particular reason a wizard is identifiable as such prior to casting. The two most unique class attributes, a familiar and a spellbook, are generally not taken/visible before battle. Or even used in battle at all, for that matter.

Identifying the caster after he's started casting is dead easy, of course, but by then, it's generally too late.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-13, 11:39 AM
Sure, how about an enemy wizard that is 1-3 levels higher than you, with the following persisted set of buffs, taken from your 9th level incantatrix: Fly, Mirror Image, Blur, Prot: Arrows, Shield, Protection against Evil, Vigor, Protection against Good, The four heart buffs. Non persisted buffs that last long the entire day involve permanencied detect magic, Grtr Mage Armor, and the higher version of Resistance from SpC. :smalltongue:

You can, in theory, solve any wizard with a higher level wizard using the same build, yes. This proves nothing about the balance of wizards and fighters.


I am aware that high level wizards played paranoid enough are completely untouchable, and whenever I have a player that does that I throw something like above against them. When they whine about it, I simply ask them how else I am supposed to provide them a RAW legal challenge. I don't get why players do that, not being challenged can't be all that fun. On the other hand, I also don't get why there are DM's that would push players to do that. Vicious cycle there, and makes those types of DM's and players completely incompatible with other, more lax groups.

First off, level 9 is not particularily high level. Most would consider that mid-level play.

The entire game is about players preparing to overcome increasingly hard challenges. A good DM uses diversity in challenges, and doesn't simply copy the players build, tack on a couple of levels and call it a day. I too would consider relying on that as your method of "challenging" players to be extremely poor form. The party fighters would also likely be pretty annoyed too.

The DM has access to a wild assortment of stuff, some of which can certainly challenge specific builds, yes. It's not hard to challenge any particular power level....it's hard to challenge a group with very different power levels.

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 11:42 AM
There is no particular reason a wizard is identifiable as such prior to casting. The two most unique class attributes, a familiar and a spellbook, are generally not taken/visible before battle. Or even used in battle at all, for that matter.

Identifying the caster after he's started casting is dead easy, of course, but by then, it's generally too late.

You're aware of their presence, so you can equip yourself to survive at least one spell.

Also, lack of armour is frequently a very big clue, and attracts opponents who are just looking for 'meat'.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-13, 11:42 AM
To answer the OP in a nutshell: I do not think that an inherent imbalance was put into the game; rather, a different way to play has evolved for many people.


This.

On the Subject of attacking the wizard first. THis is why I always "play dress up" with my wizards. I keep them out of robes and in sensible pants and shirts (A light jacket with extra pockets too, with the contents of my SCP in them). Later on, Caster's armor and a set of shortswords to blend in with the melee types (mithral twilight armor and shortswords for Dancing blades spell). Core only, Full plate, a tower shield, and still spell is a fun combination.

Also Grease, web and mirror image are nice and low level and are superb defense spells that leave the higher levels open for problem solving.

Lysander
2010-01-13, 11:43 AM
Spells and hp are both limited resources, and have to be used together to maximize their benefit. For any given encounter the players should decide whether it's better to sacrifice health or spells. People always assume the best possible action for a wizard is to cast a spell every round of combat. It's ok to use a crossbow once in a while, hold back on the magic, and kinda suck overall so that when a really big monster comes along, an enemy spellcaster, or a huge crowd of enemies then you can unleash the hellfire.

I think one problem is that many DMs make every battle a boss battle. The players enter at full health with full resources, duke it out with their biggest weapons, then collect the loot and go home. It's ok to have battles against low level weak enemies where the challenges isn't to survive, it's to play smart so you win without using up your resources. The fight can end at any moment if the wizard just drops a level 3 spell, but maybe if they play smart and use the fighters the wizard only has to end up spending a level 1.

Yukitsu
2010-01-13, 11:55 AM
I use 25% of my spell slots when I'm level 5 or higher on personal defense, running away or other necessary buffs. I use 1-3 spells per encounter otherwise, tending towards 1 at level 5 and 3 up to 20. In general, this means I use about 40% of my spell slots per day on the standard 4 encounters. On a day with really tough encounters, or more, I can expect to use upwards of 85% total, or 20% more than usual. On an absolute grindfest day, 100% of the time, the none-casters have died, and I was down wealth due to scroll use.

Atrition generally works on damage spam wizards because they are so inefficient. Batman or SoD or SoL wizards don't have that same limitation, because they get so much bang for their buck in combat.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-13, 11:58 AM
You're aware of their presence, so you can equip yourself to survive at least one spell.

Also, lack of armour is frequently a very big clue, and attracts opponents who are just looking for 'meat'.

Survive one spell? Well, if I kick off a fifth level SoD, you need to make a DC24 save. If I nuke, I have invisible spell from Cityscape. So, it's not even terribly obvious what Im doing, and unless your monsters come with spellcraft and have LOS to me, they'll have a general lack of information about my tactics. In any case, after one spell, and one round of combat from my party, it's relatively unlikely that they pose any sort of threat to me.

Plus, why would they automatically be aware of a wizard's presence? I'll grant that my hide/move silently isn't great, but when you're flying everywhere, and everything in LOS dies, that's a surprisingly unimportant issue.

Looks at party. The mystic theurge is unarmored. So is the druid/monk. So is the cleric(why, I have no idea). Then we have the rogues in leather armor. They wear clothing over the armor, because, as rogues, they don't want to be obviously bad guys. So no, it's not all obvious who the wizard is.

Besides, it's not like a twilight mithril chain shirt would hurt me at all. I'll probably pick one up eventually, but I blew my gold thus far on other stuff.

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 12:04 PM
If, as an evil overlord, I want to take out a wizard, it's probably going to involve a Dust of Appearance trap of some kind. It wipes out a pretty big slice of core defensive buffs and has no counter or exception in core (I'd allow being incorporeal or being on another plane, but those aren't called out).

That's as an evil overlord, and possibly as a bandit - basically anyone who is used to wizards running into their personal cave complex, killing everyone else, and taking their stuff. I don't do fiat kills.

I would actually expect a wizard to be sensibly dressed in a dungeon - prestigitation or not, are you honestly planning to wear academic dress in what amounts to a sewer?

I generally restrict or ban any totally ridiculous "**** you" combos, which does make the job of challenging wizards a little easier, but it's not like every wizard spell is utterly unstoppable to start with. Contact Other Plane will not tell you that your next fight will begin with a decoy attack by a group of kamikaze goblins.


I certainly don't think that fighters are actually on the same level as wizards, but I think they can have a role. I suspect that the intent was for wizards not to be able to easily avoid being engaged in melee, rather than for them to be low on endurance.

There is also the point that many of the rules were written when MAD meant the cleric used a custom staff instead of a wand.


Survive one spell? Well, if I kick off a fifth level SoD, you need to make a DC24 save. If I nuke, I have invisible spell from Cityscape. So, it's not even terribly obvious what Im doing, and unless your monsters come with spellcraft and have LOS to me, they'll have a general lack of information about my tactics. In any case, after one spell, and one round of combat from my party, it's relatively unlikely that they pose any sort of threat to me.

The enemy as a whole. I won't even bother rolling for the guys you hit the first time - I might not even have to use anything that needs anything but a nat 20 to save against your effects.

The point here is that it is possible to run a wizard into the ground, and that anyone who is used to wizards can probably do so. Magic changes everything. It's ridiculous to assume that an enemy won't be paying attention to what happens and prepare properly for their opponents.

Flying is frequently a big giveaway when the ceiling is only ten feet high, in any event.

Sir Giacomo
2010-01-13, 12:10 PM
I invite you to find a way to deal with the following persisted set of buffs, taken from my 9th level incantatrix: Fly, Mirror Image, Blur, Prot: Arrows, Shield, Protection against Evil, Vigor, Protection against Good, The four heart buffs. Non persisted buffs that last long the entire day involve permanencied detect magic, Grtr Mage Armor, and the higher version of Resistance from SpC.

Said character is RAW-legal, has been played from level 1 in an actual game, has a wide variety of wands and scrolls on hand together with a reserve feat(lightening), and has 76 hp and 19 AC unbuffed.

Invitation accepted. As a DM, I would deal with this wizard with what the CR9 monsters and 9th level npcs offer me:
- flying
- spellcasting
- poison
- fighting in total concealment
- missile attacks from magic weapons
- grappling

Also, I am not quite sure how your flying, mirror-imaged wizard can pose as a harmless commoner...:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

Yukitsu
2010-01-13, 12:15 PM
Invitation accepted. As a DM, I would deal with this wizard with what the CR9 and 9th level npcs offer me:
- flying
- spellcasting
- poison
- fighting in total concealment
- missile attacks from magic weapons
- grappling

Also, I am not quite sure how your flying, mirror-imaged wizard can pose as a harmless commoner...:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

-Flying negates non-flying party members, not the flying one with ranged attacks.
-Everyone admits you can beat a caster with a more paranoid caster.
-seriously, try poison. It makes me laugh when my DM uses it.
-Total concealment gained from what? Most of the time, this means neither side is actually fighting.
-Missile attacks are, pound for pound, the lowest damage per hit in the game, and also must bypass dr10/- from heart of earth, as well as several miss chances.
-heart of water makes you immune to grapple.

Lysander
2010-01-13, 12:15 PM
The purpose of fighters at higher levels are to be an old friend of the wizard, and one of the few people the wizard can trust.

And of course a wizard can come up with some smart combination of spells that will make them impervious to a fighter. The question is, are they impervious to whatever the DM can throw at them? If you make a flying invisible spellcaster immune to arrows, I'll make you go into a narrow tunnel filled with swarms of bats.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-13, 12:18 PM
If, as an evil overlord, I want to take out a wizard, it's probably going to involve a Dust of Appearance trap of some kind. It wipes out a pretty big slice of core defensive buffs and has no counter or exception in core (I'd allow being incorporeal or being on another plane, but those aren't called out).

That's as an evil overlord, and possibly as a bandit - basically anyone who is used to wizards running into their personal cave complex, killing everyone else, and taking their stuff. I don't do fiat kills.

Oh, defensive traps need not be fiat. I don't know the Dust of appearance trap offhand, but I presume that not being the first one in line is one way to avoid it. I let the melee types do that. There are a great many spell based solutions to do the same basic thing, but frankly, traps are not usually an issue.

Avoid the mechanical triggers, or set them off via a chump ahead of you. Detect magic solves the magical triggers.


I would actually expect a wizard to be sensibly dressed in a dungeon - prestigitation or not, are you honestly planning to wear academic dress in what amounts to a sewer?

Exactly. Everyone should, after minor dungeoneering, look a bit grubby and will likely have anything of extreme value or that's delicate(like spellbooks) stashed away safely if at all possible.


I generally restrict or ban any totally ridiculous "**** you" combos, which does make the job of challenging wizards a little easier, but it's not like every wizard spell is utterly unstoppable to start with. Contact Other Plane will not tell you that your next fight will begin with a decoy attack by a group of kamikaze goblins.

COP is overrated in TO stuff, imo. I've got better uses for my spell slots. However, any smart stacking of defensive buffs is quite powerful. The heart spells are explicitly designed to be comboed, with bonuses for doing so, as one example.


I certainly don't think that fighters are actually on the same level as wizards, but I think they can have a role. I suspect that the intent was for wizards not to be able to easily avoid being engaged in melee, rather than for them to be low on endurance.

There is also the point that many of the rules were written when MAD meant the cleric used a custom staff instead of a wand.

Possibly...but even in core 3.0, wizards have a startling amount of ways to avoid melee combat.


The enemy as a whole. I won't even bother rolling for the guys you hit the first time.

[quote]Flying is frequently a big giveaway when the ceiling is only ten feet high, in any event.

Generally. However, having a fly speed doesn't mean I have to fly all the time. Low ceilings do happen normally. If Im flying, I expect to be targetted appropriately.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-13, 12:19 PM
To answer the OP in a nutshell: I do not think that an inherent imbalance was put into the game; rather, a different way to play has evolved for many people.

- Giacomo

I'm saving this so I have ineffable proof that you don't know what you are talking about.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-13, 12:22 PM
Survive one spell? Well, if I kick off a fifth level SoD, you need to make a DC24 save. If I nuke, I have invisible spell from Cityscape. So, it's not even terribly obvious what Im doing, and unless your monsters come with spellcraft and have LOS to me, they'll have a general lack of information about my tactics. In any case, after one spell, and one round of combat from my party, it's relatively unlikely that they pose any sort of threat to me.

Plus, why would they automatically be aware of a wizard's presence? I'll grant that my hide/move silently isn't great, but when you're flying everywhere, and everything in LOS dies, that's a surprisingly unimportant issue.

Looks at party. The mystic theurge is unarmored. So is the druid/monk. So is the cleric(why, I have no idea). Then we have the rogues in leather armor. They wear clothing over the armor, because, as rogues, they don't want to be obviously bad guys. So no, it's not all obvious who the wizard is.

Besides, it's not like a twilight mithril chain shirt would hurt me at all. I'll probably pick one up eventually, but I blew my gold thus far on other stuff.

Yes survive one spell... As monsters don't need to use spell craft to see that you are casting a spell... just to find out what it does, so unless you have silent, still, eschew materials you can be identified as a caster... mabye not what type of caster... But they will know you are a caster.. So all they really need is LOS. which isn't that hard to get.

Then they know your a caster and they concentrate fire power onto you.
the line "Plus, why would they automatically be aware of a wizard's presence?" is halarious as you then say your flying... which to me and any one with a 8+ int could tell your some sort of magic user.

Also your group is different then most... which is fine but if your gm isn't seeing the casters as a threat or going after them first once the monsters identify the casters then eaither A your fighting mindless automations, B they have some agenda against who ever else they are attacking, or C your GM is going light on you.

nightwyrm
2010-01-13, 12:22 PM
Any DM can kill any PC without any difficulty (through DM fiat if nothing else). That's not and has never been the point. The difficulty is in creating encounters that can a) challenge the fighter without allowing the wizard to trivialize it with a single/few spell, and b) challenge the wizard without making it a death sentence for the fighter. As levels go up, this becomes more and more difficult to do.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-13, 12:26 PM
Invitation accepted. As a DM, I would deal with this wizard with what the CR9 monsters and 9th level npcs offer me:
- flying

Obviously. Keep in mind that my fly speed is pretty good, so a rather large number of things can't even keep up with me. I also have the first three items of the rainment of four, so I can spont convert spells to teleport as needed, if something nasty is catching up to me.


- spellcasting

You can counter casters with casters, true. However, you're unlikely to do so in any way that leaves melee at all relevant to the fight.


- poison

Please. Poison requires that the poison get to me, then I fail it's laughable save. Even with fort as a weak save, this is still highly unlikely.


- fighting in total concealment

How are you going to get me into and keep me in total concealment?


- missile attacks from magic weapons

Mirror image alone essentially negates this. I also have immunity to crits due to the heart buffs, and DR. Missile attacks from magic weapons translates to "oooh, I get to loot magic weapons".


- grappling

I can discharge a heart buff for freedom of movement for 9 rounds. After nine rounds, everythings dead.


Also, I am not quite sure how your flying, mirror-imaged wizard can pose as a harmless commoner...:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

Harmless commoner? Nah. Indistinguishable from the rest of the party? pretty much.

You see, the rogues are huge fans of hats of disguise self. Im not the only one to use mirror image, and others also enjoy spells like alter self. If the mood strikes us, we can all look identical.

This is probably entirely unnecessary, but it is hilarious.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-13, 12:27 PM
Then they know your a caster and they concentrate fire power onto you.
the line "Plus, why would they automatically be aware of a wizard's presence?" is halarious as you then say your flying... which to me and any one with a 8+ int could tell your some sort of magic user.
It could be a Warlock.
They aren't true magic users.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-13, 12:29 PM
Yes survive one spell... As monsters don't need to use spell craft to see that you are casting a spell... just to find out what it does, so unless you have silent, still, eschew materials you can be identified as a caster... mabye not what type of caster... But they will know you are a caster.. So all they really need is LOS. which isn't that hard to get.

Correct. I do not have any of those other feats. The point is, you need to have LOS to me, then not die. Then attack me and matter.


Then they know your a caster and they concentrate fire power onto you.
the line "Plus, why would they automatically be aware of a wizard's presence?" is halarious as you then say your flying... which to me and any one with a 8+ int could tell your some sort of magic user.

Just because you have a fly speed doesn't mean you have to fly 24/7. I *can*, yes...but it'd be odd to buy stuff at the market while hovering, no?


Also your group is different then most... which is fine but if your gm isn't seeing the casters as a threat or going after them first once the monsters identify the casters then eaither A your fighting mindless automations, B they have some agenda against who ever else they are attacking, or C your GM is going light on you.

Never said this.

Casters do in fact get targetted once they show themselves to be a threat. This is true of anyone that shows themselves to be a threat, honestly.

The point is, it doesn't matter.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-13, 12:30 PM
It could be a Warlock.
They aren't true magic users.

o agreed... it could be a fighter with boots of flying...

Though as a gm who runs alot of orcs and more "stupid" humonoid monsters as encounters... They see someone flying around there gonna think there a caster... irregardless of what they are... I think its safe to assume that.


Tyndmyr:

It does though matter.. as once i've lived through your first birrage which with the examples you gave isn't that hard at ECL 5. the return fire(what ever it may be) can and will be painfull to the caster at almost any level.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-13, 12:31 PM
Also, I am not quite sure how your flying, mirror-imaged wizard can pose as a harmless commoner... :smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

My casters all dress like monks. And they carry quarterstaffs.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-13, 12:33 PM
The question is, are they impervious to whatever the DM can throw at them? If you make a flying invisible spellcaster immune to arrows, I'll make you go into a narrow tunnel filled with swarms of bats.

Roast bat is a delicacy where I come from :smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-01-13, 12:34 PM
Even without reserve feats - the Wizard has pearls and wands, the fighter still just has a pointy stick.

Also, even if you somehow succeed in nerfing the wizard with constant attacks
etc., you have done jack squat to the cleric and druid. You can't just fix tier imbalance with more encounters.

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 12:35 PM
-Flying negates non-flying party members, not the flying one with ranged attacks.
-Everyone admits you can beat a caster with a more paranoid caster.

You need a caster to beat a caster, but a lower level caster who concentrates on support or protecting his friends could make those friends a lot more dangerous than they would be otherwise.


-seriously, try poison. It makes me laugh when my DM uses it.

Poison might suck. That's a pretty bad response though - if the enemy is prepared to sling around poisoned arrows, you can bet that there is someone set up to start making your saves a lot harder as soon as they see you're not having a problem.


-Total concealment gained from what? Most of the time, this means neither side is actually fighting.

I think most DMs hold back too much. If the players aren't equipped to go into an area of darkness, they either make sure they're equipped, they avoid it, or they eat a TPK. Nowhere in the DMG is the DM advised to tolerate idiots.


-Missile attacks are, pound for pound, the lowest damage per hit in the game, and also must bypass dr10/- from heart of earth, as well as several miss chances.

Most miss chances can be negated very easily with one magic item. If I'm going to make a concerted effort to kill a caster, I'm going to make sure it's in place before I let my forces attack.

Wind Wall tends to be a better solution to being attacked at range.


-heart of water makes you immune to grapple.

So don't grapple...


Mirror image alone essentially negates this. I also have immunity to crits due to the heart buffs, and DR. Missile attacks from magic weapons translates to "oooh, I get to loot magic weapons".

Or "does that guy really have levels in Arcane Archer?"

Or "Why is that caster not actually bothering to attack me?"

NPCs can get a lot from working as a team.



The point is that a good DM, without using fiat, can challenge a caster without making them worthless, and without making the non-casters irrelevant.

It probably does mean an EL several levels higher than the party level, and it probably does mean a disproportionate amount of effort going into keeping the caster out of the equation.

It's still good enough to keep casters from getting too cocky though.

Telonius
2010-01-13, 12:41 PM
It could be a Warlock.
They aren't true magic users.

Lesson to Warlocks: don't fly, you'll draw less fire.

To the OP: Wizards do have an inherent difficulty (in 3.5, at least). They can range from all-powerful magic user to commoner with a silly hat and a weird pet, depending on whether or not they have any spells left. That was supposed to be the limiting factor. It works fairly well at really low levels, but as soon as you have more than a handful of spells, you're almost never going to use all of them.

One way of adjusting it would be to do like you've said, and have a strict limit on spells. But that can suck all the fun out of playing a Wizard. Another way of going about it would be to have a bunch of not-quite-so-broken stuff that's always on, so you always have something to contribute. I have a strong suspicion they were actually testing out this fix when they created the Warlock. That class actually was a decent attempt to fix things; flavorful, fun to play. The thing that it lacked was power.

So, a middle way: have a bunch of low-level at-will powers that are always on, but a limited number of higher-power spells. (i.e. Gandalf should never run out of "Create Smoke Ring" spells, but he can only blind a room full of goblins once in awhile). It can work with Vancian casting, but is more intuitive with Power Point systems (like in Psionics), or per-encounter/day/etc systems like 4e.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-13, 12:48 PM
My casters all dress like monks. And they carry quarterstaffs.

Same with my Incarnates/Totemists, but minus the staff for the Totemist (Incarnates can abuse UMD). People would be surprised how easy it is to make your enemies think you are a Wizard, and then bash them into their graves with 4 arms of doom.

Yukitsu
2010-01-13, 12:48 PM
The point is that a good DM, without using fiat, can challenge a caster without making them worthless, and without making the non-casters irrelevant.

It probably does mean an EL several levels higher than the party level, and it probably does mean a disproportionate amount of effort going into keeping the caster out of the equation.

It's still good enough to keep casters from getting too cocky though.

I wasn't really arguing your point though. I was pointing out that none of the methods cited by Gia actually contribute to a harder time for the wizard Tyndmyr had posited.

Aldizog
2010-01-13, 12:59 PM
The question that I put to the playground is this: would it be possible to make the spell slot limits meaningful without losing all the fun of playing wizards etc.? If so, how should it be done?
One thing that would go part-way towards fixing this is adventure design focused on large numbers of encounters per day, perhaps around 10-15, with time constraints or goals such that "nova, retreat, repeat" doesn't work so well. Or battles with reinforcements coming in waves.

Then, to make sure the fighters can survive, give everybody Fast Healing 2; give your plane the minor Positive-Dominant trait. Easy.

Fighters can then go all day long. So can warlocks, or wizards with reserve feats. But those options generally aren't overpowered for direct damage. You might also adjust Pesistant Spell, Extend Spell, or defensive spell durations in some way.

These would generally go back to the Mentzer Basic Set balancing principle of "Magic has its uses, but magic is limited, whereas Strength can be used as often as desired."

Earlier editions were balanced around the wizard not casting a spell every single round, at least for the levels at which the game was usually played. Reserve feats are a nice fix for those who want their wizard to use magic every round, without giving the full power of higher-level spells at will.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-13, 01:04 PM
One thing that would go part-way towards fixing this is adventure design focused on large numbers of encounters per day, perhaps around 10-15, with time constraints or goals such that "nova, retreat, repeat" doesn't work so well. Or battles with reinforcements coming in waves.

Then, to make sure the fighters can survive, give everybody Fast Healing 2; give your plane the minor Positive-Dominant trait. Easy.

Fighters can then go all day long. So can warlocks, or wizards with reserve feats. But those options generally aren't overpowered for direct damage. You might also adjust Pesistant Spell, Extend Spell, or defensive spell durations in some way.

These would generally go back to the Mentzer Basic Set balancing principle of "Magic has its uses, but magic is limited, whereas Strength can be used as often as desired."

Earlier editions were balanced around the wizard not casting a spell every single round, at least for the levels at which the game was usually played. Reserve feats are a nice fix for those who want their wizard to use magic every round, without giving the full power of higher-level spells at will.The issue with that quickly becomes Druids. They're already the easiest of the big 6 to break, now they're the strongest of them, too. Not to mention you needing to go through and nerf every spell with an hours/level duration. Meanwhile, you just cut +4 off the Fighters to-hit and damage, because now he can't get a GMW from the Cleric. Not good.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-13, 01:09 PM
You need a caster to beat a caster, but a lower level caster who concentrates on support or protecting his friends could make those friends a lot more dangerous than they would be otherwise.

I do tend to focus on boosting friends a lot, tbh...and yes, haste and dolorous blade on a melee guy do make him substantially more dangerous. I've also got an eternal wand of cat's grace that gets both charges used every single day. Ditto for Prot: Evil.

I can be personally lethal as well as pretty good at boosting the party.


Poison might suck. That's a pretty bad response though - if the enemy is prepared to sling around poisoned arrows, you can bet that there is someone set up to start making your saves a lot harder as soon as they see you're not having a problem.

Poison save DCs suck. All of them do. They provide very little in return for the extra gold expended. Which, btw, may be recoverable in part after I kill them. Relying on consumables I can loot isn't always a bad thing for me.

Unless you resort to fiat to boost save DCs, Im not in significant danger.


I think most DMs hold back too much. If the players aren't equipped to go into an area of darkness, they either make sure they're equipped, they avoid it, or they eat a TPK. Nowhere in the DMG is the DM advised to tolerate idiots.

True. However, I've never played in a party without light sources and such. If it's magical darkness...feh, dispel.


Most miss chances can be negated very easily with one magic item. If I'm going to make a concerted effort to kill a caster, I'm going to make sure it's in place before I let my forces attack.

True. Again, feel free to put magical items on everyone who attacks me. More loot, yay!


Wind Wall tends to be a better solution to being attacked at range.

It is...my personal buff list isn't perfect, just sufficient for my needs. I do need spell slots and such for other things. In any case, ranged attacks are still not a significant problem.

I prefer to use the buffs/build I actually use as an example, rather than the typical hypothetical everchanging builds that commonly get slung around in comparison matches. That proves nothing.


So don't grapple...

Pretty much just there to show that Gio's solutions were filled with fail.


Or "does that guy really have levels in Arcane Archer?"

Glitterdust solves that. Blind archers are remarkably harmless.


The point is that a good DM, without using fiat, can challenge a caster without making them worthless, and without making the non-casters irrelevant.

It probably does mean an EL several levels higher than the party level, and it probably does mean a disproportionate amount of effort going into keeping the caster out of the equation.

It's still good enough to keep casters from getting too cocky though.

Yeah, but if you start busting out encounters significantly above ECL, and they're all focusing on me, and still failing, won't that merely highlight the imbalance with the lesser optimized classes?

Lysander
2010-01-13, 01:15 PM
The other thing that helps fighters out is that by high levels they should have magic armor, weapons, and other items so that they can fly, teleport, etc. on their own if need be. And at level 20 if your fighter isn't wielding an artifact they or the DM isn't doing it right.

Emmerask
2010-01-13, 01:19 PM
playground is this: would it be possible to make the spell slot limits meaningful without losing all the fun of playing wizards etc.? If so, how should it be done?

You could houserule that spells are replanished based on level
level1: in one day
level2: every two days
etc

more encounters only would work if you ban or limit certain spells that allow the group to escape to safe places for example:
-robe trick (ban)
-teleport (make it an 8 hour ritual or something like that)
-planeshift(same as teleport)
and lots more ^^

Aldizog
2010-01-13, 01:19 PM
The issue with that quickly becomes Druids. They're already the easiest of the big 6 to break, now they're the strongest of them, too. Not to mention you needing to go through and nerf every spell with an hours/level duration. Meanwhile, you just cut +4 off the Fighters to-hit and damage, because now he can't get a GMW from the Cleric. Not good.
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with having more encounters per day and giving everybody Fast Healing. Druids are powerful, true, but that had nothing to do with the OPs question that I was addressing. Re-read his question that I quoted -- how do you make spell slots more of a meaningful limitation? Do you have a better answer than mine? Mine was, basically, "Increase encounters per day and take a simple straight-from-SRD fix to make it so that HP aren't as much of a limited resource in that case."

Oh, are you speaking of where I said you might also adjust Persist and Extend in some way? A minor point in my post, and individual DMs would determine what sort of adjustments would best suit their games. If it is the case that they generally hand out custom magic items in loot considering what the PCs might need, then the GMW is irrelevant. As both a player and a DM, I've seen that be more common than the magic shop. The fighter ends up with a custom +4 longsword that cannot be disarmed and gives a +2 luck bonus on Will saves, rather than selling this and buying a +1 flaming shock frost holy longsword and getting a GMW. I wouldn't presume to say "Don't nerf the duration of GMW because every campaign depends on getting a GMW from the cleric." Not every party even has a cleric, for that matter. It's a case where, as with every single thing in D&D, DM judgment is imperative.

Gnaeus
2010-01-13, 01:29 PM
The issue with that quickly becomes Druids. They're already the easiest of the big 6 to break, now they're the strongest of them, too.

Yeah, druids would love those rules. But think what it would do for Tome of Battle. A 15 encounter day is candy to a crusader or warblade.

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 01:30 PM
I do tend to focus on boosting friends a lot, tbh...and yes, haste and dolorous blade on a melee guy do make him substantially more dangerous. I've also got an eternal wand of cat's grace that gets both charges used every single day. Ditto for Prot: Evil.

I can be personally lethal as well as pretty good at boosting the party.

That's true. I'm not saying that there is no imbalance, I'm saying that bringing a fighter isn't always a waste of time (I'll concede that bringing another wizard would be even better, but we assume that there are good reasons why not everyone is a wizard).


Poison save DCs suck. All of them do. They provide very little in return for the extra gold expended. Which, btw, may be recoverable in part after I kill them. Relying on consumables I can loot isn't always a bad thing for me.

Assuming you can win the encounter, yes, you do stand to make quite a bit of money from looting equipment. You've also overcome a pretty major challenge. Am I supposed to not be rewarding you?


Unless you resort to fiat to boost save DCs, Im not in significant danger.

Without fiat, your save could potentially drop your fort save as low as -2 at 9th level. There is no poison in the game that you can reliably save against under those circumstances. On the flip side, you could potentially be exposed to quite a bit of poison, and probably more poisoned attacks than most other kinds of SoD if we're assuming that casters tend to be rare.


True. However, I've never played in a party without light sources and such. If it's magical darkness...feh, dispel.


True. Again, feel free to put magical items on everyone who attacks me. More loot, yay!

Well, bear in mind that Dust of Appearance isn't reusable. Your rogue, ranger, cleric, or factotum will feel a lot better when he stops it coming into play, however.


It is...my personal buff list isn't perfect, just sufficient for my needs. I do need spell slots and such for other things. In any case, ranged attacks are still not a significant problem.

Ranged attacks are a fairly simple way to deliver debuffs, certain offensive magic items, and a few other nasty surprises, especially for well-equipped militaries. It's generally better to just say no to them than to try to avoid the damage.


I prefer to use the buffs/build I actually use as an example, rather than the typical hypothetical everchanging builds that commonly get slung around in comparison matches. That proves nothing.

I agree. It's much better for to work with staples than to assume that the right spell for the job is always available.


Pretty much just there to show that Gio's solutions were filled with fail.

Yeah, Gia does make mistakes pretty frequently.


Glitterdust solves that. Blind archers are remarkably harmless.

You'd probably need to metamagic it to all hell and back to necessarily catch every archer facing you. Or spam it, which you might not have time for.


Yeah, but if you start busting out encounters significantly above ECL, and they're all focusing on me, and still failing, won't that merely highlight the imbalance with the lesser optimized classes?

The point is that they aren't failing. In the very least, it's quite easy to put anyone out of the equation without fiat or being unreasonable.

Aldizog
2010-01-13, 01:32 PM
Yeah, druids would love those rules. But think what it would do for Tome of Battle. A 15 encounter day is candy to a crusader or warblade.
Is it particularly different for them than for a rogue or fighter, if everybody has Fast Healing 2?

I imagine the barbarian is the only non-casting class that would be at a disadvantage. (Or a non-casting paladin, I guess, since Smites are limited per-day.)

Anonymouswizard
2010-01-13, 01:35 PM
The other thing that helps fighters out is that by high levels they should have magic armor, weapons, and other items so that they can fly, teleport, etc. on their own if need be. And at level 20 if your fighter isn't wielding an artifact they or the DM isn't doing it right.

All artefacts should be for fighters.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-13, 01:37 PM
With regards to darkness, keep in mind that a decent percentage of magical weapons will give off light as a torch by default.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-13, 01:38 PM
The other thing that helps fighters out is that by high levels they should have magic armor, weapons, and other items so that they can fly, teleport, etc. on their own if need be. And at level 20 if your fighter isn't wielding an artifact they or the DM isn't doing it right.

What every Fighter should get a Sword of Kas (weapon type changed to perfered type)?

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-13, 01:39 PM
The other thing that helps fighters out is that by high levels they should have magic armor, weapons, and other items so that they can fly, teleport, etc. on their own if need be. And at level 20 if your fighter isn't wielding an artifact they or the DM isn't doing it right.

An artifact.

Gnaeus
2010-01-13, 01:42 PM
Is it particularly different for them than for a rogue or fighter, if everybody has Fast Healing 2?

I imagine the barbarian is the only non-casting class that would be at a disadvantage. (Or a non-casting paladin, I guess, since Smites are limited per-day.)

It is different, because those classes have what are essentially per-encounter powers, which recharge before each fight (well, or during a fight, with a recharge mechanism.) Also, because a rogue or fighter has no real ability to adapt during a 15 encounter day unless there is a shopping trip in the middle of it, whereas a ToB character with Adaptive Style can switch out his prepared maneuvers in a round. My swordsage would be in heaven if he got 15, 3 round encounters per day, so that he could nova a standard action and a swift action maneuver in each round in each fight and start over fresh 2 minutes later.

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 01:44 PM
With regards to darkness, keep in mind that a decent percentage of magical weapons will give off light as a torch by default.

Magical darkness works.

My point was that a party which goes into the darkness unprepared will be TPK'd. I didn't say it was hard to prepare.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-13, 01:51 PM
Magical darkness works.

My point was that a party which goes into the darkness unprepared will be TPK'd. I didn't say it was hard to prepare.

Magical darkness gives off light (baring Black Light spell).

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-13, 02:00 PM
Magical darkness works.

It's not darkness, it's shadowy illumination!

Lysander
2010-01-13, 02:04 PM
Another point nobody brought up is that wizards are not supposed to get every spell their player wants. Wizards find random spells in ancient scrolls, barter with rival casters, or painstakingly research new ones. They get two new ones of their choice each level, the rest of their spell list is haphazard and entirely up to DM discretion.

Depending on how common magic is it may be possible to buy scrolls of core spells like Fly or Invisibility so you can copy that. Maybe, maybe not. Even so it's going to be hard to find the rarer stuff.

Getting a new spell should a big deal, not just another commodity you should be able to purchase in bulk. It's something that really makes a player excited. What a new magic sword is to the fighter, a new spell is to the wizard. New spells should be granted incrementally as rewards for completing major objectives. Defeating an evil wizard and getting his book. Passing an entrance test to join a council of wizards and gaining access to their library. Uncovering an ancient magic scroll with a forgotten spell in an old tomb. Not just teleporting to the nearest Spells R Us and picking up a scroll of whatever you want.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-13, 02:07 PM
Another point nobody brought up is that wizards are not supposed to get every spell their player wants. Wizards find random spells in ancient scrolls, barter with rival casters, or painstakingly research new ones. They get two new ones of their choice each level, the rest of their spell list is haphazard and entirely up to DM discretion.

Depending on how common magic is it may be possible to buy scrolls of core spells like Fly or Invisibility so you can copy that. Maybe, maybe not. Even so it's going to be hard to find the rarer stuff.

Getting a new spell should a big deal, not just another commodity you should be able to purchase in bulk. It's something that really makes a player excited. What a new magic sword is to the fighter, a new spell is to the wizard. New spells should be granted incrementally as rewards for completing major objectives. Defeating an evil wizard and getting his book. Passing an entrance test to join a council of wizards and gaining access to their library. Uncovering an ancient magic scroll with a forgotten spell in an old tomb. Not just teleporting to the nearest Spells R Us and picking up a scroll of whatever you want.

I think some one proved that the 2 spells a level are enough to still be Over powerd I unfortunatly don't have a link.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-13, 02:08 PM
Another point nobody brought up is that wizards are not supposed to get every spell their player wants. Wizards find random spells in ancient scrolls, barter with rival casters, or painstakingly research new ones. They get two new ones of their choice each level, the rest of their spell list is haphazard and entirely up to DM discretion.

Depending on how common magic is it may be possible to buy scrolls of core spells like Fly or Invisibility so you can copy that. Maybe, maybe not. Even so it's going to be hard to find the rarer stuff.

Getting a new spell should a big deal, not just another commodity you should be able to purchase in bulk. It's something that really makes a player excited. What a new magic sword is to the fighter, a new spell is to the wizard. New spells should be granted incrementally as rewards for completing major objectives. Defeating an evil wizard and getting his book. Passing an entrance test to join a council of wizards and gaining access to their library. Uncovering an ancient magic scroll with a forgotten spell in an old tomb. Not just teleporting to the nearest Spells R Us and picking up a scroll of whatever you want.If a DM is limiting your purchasable spells per level, you start grabbing 4-5 bonus spells per level. Collegiate Wizard and Elven Generalist are both very nice.

Glimbur
2010-01-13, 02:11 PM
So, there are two approaches here.

a) Wizards are special. That means it's hard to find more spells than your 2/level, you might face superstition or hostility, etc. But it also mean that wizards are rare, and therefore there will not always be a wizard to counter the party's wizard. Sure, a cleric or a warlock or whatever can mess up a wizard's plans too, but wizards are crazy powerful.

b) Wizards are common. This means monsters know to target the squishy guy in the back first, there are lots of other wizards to counteract the party's wizard, and the general tactics of the world include wizards. But it also means that getting wizard spells is easier than in world a).

Either approach is fine, but it strains verisimilitude to take the problems from each and use them to complicate the PC wizard's life.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-13, 02:12 PM
I think some one proved that the 2 spells a level are enough to still be Over powerd I unfortunatly don't have a link.

If you can make a decent sorcerer, you can make a decent wizard with a small spellbook.

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 02:17 PM
It's not darkness, it's shadowy illumination!

What kind of stupid, idiotic nerf is that?

Are halfway decent attack spells in the hands of evokers some kind of anathema to the 3.5 designers?

There is a good reason why there are so many people who forget about that all the time.

</whine>

Lysander
2010-01-13, 02:19 PM
b) Wizards are common. This means monsters know to target the squishy guy in the back first, there are lots of other wizards to counteract the party's wizard, and the general tactics of the world include wizards. But it also means that getting wizard spells is easier than in world a).


Or it could be that a lot of wizards all use the same small selection of spells.


If a DM is limiting your purchasable spells per level, you start grabbing 4-5 bonus spells per level. Collegiate Wizard and Elven Generalist are both very nice.

Not a bad idea. However that's still 4 spells in total, not four spells per spell level you can cast. Even knowing twice as many spells is still not getting every spell you want.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if a wizard has specialized then they have to take at least one of the two new spells per level in that school. For a feat like collegiate wizard I'd rule that they still need to take half of the newly learned spells in their specialty.

Gnaeus
2010-01-13, 02:22 PM
Oh no! I hope I can find a couple of good transmutation or conjuration spells at every level.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-13, 02:25 PM
Or it could be that a lot of wizards all use the same small selection of spells.



Not a bad idea. However that's still 4 spells in total, not four spells per spell level you can cast. Even knowing twice as many spells is still not getting every spell you want.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if a wizard has specialized then they have to take at least one of the two new spells per level in that school. For a feat like collegiate wizard I'd rule that they still need to take half of the newly learned spells in their specialty.1: That's a houserule. 2: Pick Conjuration. There are at least 2 conj spells of each level that I want.

Also, it's 4 new spells per level-up. That's more spells than you have slots.

Lysander
2010-01-13, 02:32 PM
1: That's a houserule. 2: Pick Conjuration. There are at least 2 conj spells of each level that I want.

Also, it's 4 new spells per level-up. That's more spells than you have slots.

It's definitely a lot of spells known. I suppose most people would have 10 first level spells, and then have 8 in each new spell level (always putting their 4 into the highest level they can cast). But 8 spells is still not any spell they could possibly ever want.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-13, 03:00 PM
What kind of stupid, idiotic nerf is that?

Are halfway decent attack spells in the hands of evokers some kind of anathema to the 3.5 designers?

There is a good reason why there are so many people who forget about that all the time.

</whine>

The best part is, if you cast Darkness in a pitch black room... the room becomes brighter.

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 03:20 PM
The best part is, if you cast Darkness in a pitch black room... the room becomes brighter.

I know. Stupid spell nerfs...

Emmerask
2010-01-13, 03:21 PM
If a DM is limiting your purchasable spells per level, you start grabbing 4-5 bonus spells per level. Collegiate Wizard and Elven Generalist are both very nice.

A dm who limits a wizards spelllist does this for a reason (if its a legitimate one or not would be another question) but be sure that the dm wont take it in good spirit if you try to circumvent him :smallwink:

Starbuck_II
2010-01-13, 03:50 PM
The best part is, if you cast Darkness in a pitch black room... the room becomes brighter.

Which is why the darkness spell Black Light was invented (it actually creates darkness and not shadowy illumination). I think 3rd or 4th level spell.

averagejoe
2010-01-13, 03:56 PM
Not a bad idea. However that's still 4 spells in total, not four spells per spell level you can cast. Even knowing twice as many spells is still not getting every spell you want.

You can't always get the spells you want. But if you try sometimes, you might find, you get the spells you need.

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 04:01 PM
Which is why the darkness spell Black Light was invented (it actually creates darkness and not shadowy illumination). I think 3rd or 4th level spell.

Presumably 4th level. Otherwise there was no point nerfing the Darkness line to start with.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-13, 04:08 PM
Just Checked:

Nope, it used to be (Darkness 3rd) Wiz/Sorc 4th, but Spell compendruim made it 3rd Wiz/Sorc (still Darkness 3rd).

JaronK
2010-01-13, 05:19 PM
A few thoughts.

First off, you're partially right about the imbalance, and partially wrong. Sir Gia actually said something almost correct on this topic... while the imbalance was built into the game, it was unintentional, and built in because the playstyle of the playtesters was very specific and they didn't test other styles. When other players started playing, they did use other styles, and everything went to heck.

Basically, the playtesters thought that all arcanists should be blasters and all clerics should be healbots. Druids should fight with scimitars and keep their animal companion out of danger (wouldn't want him to get hurt, you're supposed to protect animals) while staying in normal form (Wild Shape sucks because you lose your gear). Bards just sorta pretend to be casters but aren't, so they mostly just play music. Rogues stab things alot, Monks hit stuff, and Fighters and Barbarians do the same. Note that if you play this way, the core classes are pretty balanced. Wizards got those bonus feats to make up for the fact that they didn't have as many blast spells per day as Sorcerers. Oh, and save or sucks are lame because you might waste your spell slot if they save.

Then other players got hold of the rules, realized that blasting didn't do much, and said "hmm" when they looked at Alter Self and Glitterdust, and the Druids looked over at the animal companion who could rock out, and everything went to heck.

Anyway, I don't think this can be solved with fewer spell slots. The problem is not how many times Wizards can do things, it's what they can do. Even a Wizard with very few spell slots per day can raise an army of melees with a fourth level spell or (slowly, admittedly) build a castle from nothing with fourth and fifth level spells. At low levels, a single Color Spray is an encounter ender. Glitterdust can do this quite well too. Eventually, you really only need one casting of Planar Binding or Genesis. At the end of the day, Fighters are playing "hit it until it falls down" and Wizards are playing "reshape the world to my will." It doesn't matter how many times per day people can play those games, they're inhearently different games. In the end, you have to bring them to the same playing field. Heck, I'd love it if Wizards had MORE slots, not less, if what those slots did was actually level appropriate. Unfortunately, doing that requires a heck of a lot of work, as you have to go through all those thousands of spells.

Oh, and I always disguise what my characters are. My Dread Necromancer is currently wearing a glittery Mithral Breastplate and wielding a Glaive while riding his lizard (it's underground) with a promenant holy symbol so he can pass as a Paladin. He also uses Disguise (which I swear is the second best skill a Dread Necro has behind Intimidate) to make his undead all look alive. I've even played with haunt shifting a Kobold Archivist into a tiny dragon statue, casting, Simacrulum, and sitting on my fake copy of me while pretending to be my familiar. The Simacrulum was in a haunt shifted body too, but the body looked like me. No one ever expects the Wizard to have a hardness score, or that the true threat is the familiar.

JaronK

Tyndmyr
2010-01-13, 06:09 PM
With regards to darkness, keep in mind that a decent percentage of magical weapons will give off light as a torch by default.

If regular darkness is an actual problem beyond, ooh, about level 3, you've failed at D&D. It's ridiculously easy to get light sources. In my particular case, gloves of the starry sky take care of light for me. Being a grey elf, low light is not a problem, and darkvision is easily available if I care. Magical darkness just gets dispelled if you want to play nice with the rest of the party. In my case, most of the party will have darkvision at any given time, so it's not worth worrying about. This seems standard by level 9.

FYI, on the ranged issue, the reason I didn't particularily worry about wind wall is because at level 10, Im going Iot7V. Got enough xp last session to do so, and the first veil is basically a big "no" to anything but magical ranged attacks. IE, mine. I wont deny that there are other means of stopping ranged attacks, but this one has the advantage of protecting the entire party.

If you're throwing high ECL encounters at us with good loot, you rapidly accelerate the pace of leveling if you stick with RAW. When you're routinely downing +3 and +4 fights, it doesn't take long to level at all.

Furthermore, when it comes to ranged types...you can simply avoid them by ducking out of LOS. Odds are you are vastly more mobile than them. If anything really bad threatens me, I use the wand of Wings of Cover I carry. So far, this has not turned out to be strictly necessary, but it's a decent backup plan.

Oslecamo
2010-01-13, 07:27 PM
Then other players got hold of the rules, realized that blasting didn't do much, and said "hmm" when they looked at Alter Self and Glitterdust, and the Druids looked over at the animal companion who could rock out, and everything went to heck.

2/3 false.

In 3.0 alter self was a lot more weak.

The animal companion did not scale with your level. No extra buffs. Would leave you if treated as just a meatshield. And you had to capture it yourself, as well as replacements. Usefull, but not really spectacular, and needed a lot of babysitting.

And natural spell wasn't core.

The powergamers actualy whined that druids didn't have enough power! And Wotc buffed the druid to hell and back in 3.5 to shut them up. And also buffed wildshape and shapechange.

So, you're actualy critisizing Wotc for listening to the players.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-13, 07:40 PM
And natural spell wasn't core.

Does that make it any less a part of 3.0?

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 07:43 PM
Then other players got hold of the rules, realized that blasting didn't do much, and said "hmm" when they looked at Alter Self and Glitterdust, and the Druids looked over at the animal companion who could rock out, and everything went to heck.


While Glitterdust and grease were still godly in 3.0, Alter Self and the polymorph line were sane in most cases.

The animal companion class feature read "a 1st-level druid may start the game having cast Animal Friendship on an animal".

Animal Friendship let you gain animal minions up to your hit dice, assuming animals could be found, that you succeeded in your animal empathy check (with your four skill points a level), and that you didn't go anywhere they didn't like. They didn't even gain bonuses of any kind as you levelled.

It definitely took a while for the game to fall apart, and a surprising number of the cracks were introduced by the 'fix' that 3.5 was supposed to be.

Polymorph type cheese is an entirely 3.5 invention, as was the bizarre failure to make up their minds whether or not to have zero-cost metamagic.



Does that make it any less a part of 3.0?

Maybe not, but it does make MC/SW/JT less culpable. It was also a metamagic feat in 3.0 No, I didn't allow the relevant splatbook anyway, why do you ask?

JaronK
2010-01-13, 07:46 PM
2/3 false.

In 3.0 alter self was a lot more weak.

I was talking about 3.5


The animal companion did not scale with your level. No extra buffs. Would leave you if treated as just a meatshield. And you had to capture it yourself, as well as replacements. Usefull, but not really spectacular, and needed a lot of babysitting.

And natural spell wasn't core.

Again, I was talking about 3.5 It certainly had some of the 3.0 playtest issues as they're very related games, but none of this changes the fact that during the 3.5 playtest, when Natural Spell was Core and Alter Self was awesome and your companion was a pile of butt whooping, the playtesters played exactly as I described.


The powergamers actualy whined that druids didn't have enough power! And Wotc buffed the druid to hell and back in 3.5 to shut them up. And also buffed wildshape and shapechange.

So, you're actualy critisizing Wotc for listening to the players.

I'm criticizing WotC for playtesting very poorly. Listening to a few random people (I don't know why you're calling them "the powergamers" when it was just a bunch of random players, the powergamers were more worried about other classes!) and then making foolish balance changes with bad playtesting is what I'm complaining about!

Any game company has to know how to playtest properly if they want anything close to a balanced game. Of course, balance isn't everything (just look at what happened to 4e) but it should be tested.

JaronK

lesser_minion
2010-01-13, 07:50 PM
I was talking about 3.5



Again, I was talking about 3.5 It certainly had some of the 3.0 playtest issues as they're very related games, but none of this changes the fact that during the 3.5 playtest, when Natural Spell was Core and Alter Self was awesome and your companion was a pile of butt whooping, the playtesters played exactly as I described.



I'm criticizing WotC for playtesting very poorly. Listening to a few random people (I don't know why you're calling them "the powergamers" when it was just a bunch of random players, the powergamers were more worried about other classes!) and then making foolish balance changes with bad playtesting is what I'm complaining about!

Any game company has to know how to playtest properly if they want anything close to a balanced game. Of course, balance isn't everything (just look at what happened to 4e) but it should be tested.

JaronK

I don't think 3.5 was actually playtested. They just found a list of things that were supposedly bad about 3.0 and re-wrote them.

Sometimes they even made completely retarded changes. The DR changes came at completely the wrong time to start pandering to 'realism'.

Then there were just random renamings of spells.

Oh, and was 3.0 bull's strength overpowered? No. Pointless nerf was pointless.

Augmented subtypes were good, but who thought up the idea of polymorph changing your type? Polymorph needed a tiny number of changes, and all of them were reduced durations.

Superglucose
2010-01-13, 08:01 PM
The game is balanced at low levels. If we assume there are two encounters in a major day (grunt fight, boss fight), then you have a wizard with 3 spells, 4 if specialized (5 at max). Color Spray and Sleep are your encounter enders, the save-or-die. With a save of 17 (Spell Focus, int of 20) your typical pud has about a 20% chance of passing (17, 18, 19, 20) so one out of ever 5 will pass.

But more importantly, at level 1, that wizard has 4+con HP (6 is considered typical) and will take 1d8 bow damage thanks to his AC of 10+dex (12 or 13 is considered typical). Maybe even 1d8+1 if they're against someone with Point Blank Shot, 1d8+2 if it's a boss with a mighty composite longbow.

Sure, there are still glaring balance issues at low level (sleep >>>> xbow fighter) but really now, between levels 1-5 I find that all of the classes preform reasonably similar.

Except the Druid. The Druid is nuts at this level (animal companion is basically as good as a 2nd or 3rd level fighter, and with shared buffs...)

Sir Giacomo
2010-01-15, 05:25 PM
Sorry, was unable to reply earlier ...


To answer the OP in a nutshell: I do not think that an inherent imbalance was put into the game; rather, a different way to play has evolved for many people.

- Giacomo


I'm saving this so I have ineffable proof that you don't know what you are talking about.

Here you are right, Sinfire Titan - I should have said "I do not think that an inherent imbalance was put into the original (core) game..." For instance, swift and immediate action spells alone made a big jump away from balance between caster and non-caster classes.


Pretty much just there to show that Gio's solutions were filled with fail.



Yeah, Gia does make mistakes pretty frequently.


Now, you did not really think that I would let those go unanswered, did you ? :smallsmile:
In particular since there is no evidence of this to be found in this thread ...

To repeat: a DM should simply challenge wizards with what even the core MM I and npcs offer, and there should not really be a problem.


Obviously. Keep in mind that my fly speed is pretty good, so a rather large number of things can't even keep up with me. I also have the first three items of the rainment of four, so I can spont convert spells to teleport as needed, if something nasty is catching up to me.

A cursory glance at CR 9 MMI creatures (the level more common for your allegedly unassailable level 9 wizard) reveals to me avorals, dragons, air elementals, androsphinx and rocs, all of which are faster than the fly spell (probably I missed out some more). And I do not know what these items of the rainments are, but a teleport needs vocal and somatic components in my book - which may be a problem in some cases (for instance, grappling opponents).


You can counter casters with casters, true. However, you're unlikely to do so in any way that leaves melee at all relevant to the fight.

Oh, I actually meant monsters that can also cast spells/SLA - not the npc spellcasters (which of course would also be a problem).


Please. Poison requires that the poison get to me, then I fail it's laughable save. Even with fort as a weak save, this is still highly unlikely.

Last time I checked the Colossal's Centipede poison save DC of 23 was pretty nasty for an unprotected low-Fort-class at 9th level. The spirit Naga's DC 18 is also nothing to be scoffed at.


How are you going to get me into and keep me in total concealment?

Hm. Let me think. Complete darkness (when your wizard does not have darkvision)? Maybe obscuring mist put up by the opponents (most spellcasting monsters and npcs have that)? The keeping part is difficult, admitted - but would also depend in part on the location.


Mirror image alone essentially negates this. I also have immunity to crits due to the heart buffs, and DR.

The heart buffs special effects only work once when released. Their longer-lasting abilities are not so great iirc. And DR is either too low to matter or the wizard is still open for many, many other kinds of attacks. Also, at that level some creatures and npcs will have already true seeing. Or try to fight an Yrthak (another CR 9 core monster the DM can throw at your wizard) with your blur and mirror image - you'll be in for some surprise.


Missile attacks from magic weapons translates to "oooh, I get to loot magic weapons".

The giants appropriate for that level will tend to not agree with their rock-throwing.
And a +1 bow is not exactly the catch of the day for a 9th level character, especially a wizard. Plus, there is still the wbl limit the DM should usually track closely or imbalance ensues (as per DMG). So these treasures are just part of the normal loot, nothing more.


I can discharge a heart buff for freedom of movement for 9 rounds. After nine rounds, everythings dead.

That may be. But how exactly are you going to do a swift action when grappled flat-footed (since a swift action is required for discharging the hart FOM buff)? Plus, a DM may have every right to argue that since iirc the heart of water emulates the FOM with a swift action for everthing, this also includes the V,S components. So, no swift action activation once in a grapple. Sorry.


Harmless commoner? Nah. Indistinguishable from the rest of the party? pretty much.

You see, the rogues are huge fans of hats of disguise self. Im not the only one to use mirror image, and others also enjoy spells like alter self. If the mood strikes us, we can all look identical.

This is probably entirely unnecessary, but it is hilarious.

It is hilarious, but this at best secures a similar kind of attention from the opponents. When your character is flying and mirror-imaging, he's made himself a prime target for the special attacks from the opponent that are able to deal with that (like area effects or gaze attacks). It's that simple.


A few thoughts.

First off, you're partially right about the imbalance, and partially wrong. Sir Gia actually said something almost correct on this topic... while the imbalance was built into the game, it was unintentional, and built in because the playstyle of the playtesters was very specific and they didn't test other styles. When other players started playing, they did use other styles, and everything went to heck.



Well thanks - but I think it is not almost correct, it is fully correct. You see: the playstyle of the playtesters was not just the proverbial "blaster wizard, tank fighter, healbot cleric and skillmonkey rogue". It was much, much more apparently - as obvious from the broadly balanced core rules.
Even fully buffed wizards can be challenged quite easily within these rules, just like all other classes can (as I indicated above, in particular when you deduct the non-core stuff).
Things like grappling (countering all spells with somatic components), AMF (countering all spells), total concealment (countering all targeted spells, possibly all attacking spells), etc. are all put in there already in the core rules for a reason. And note that mechanisms exist that put the non-casting classes at an advantage even with those challenges (for instance, in total concealment being able to pinpoint with the listen skill and be much better at melee with the blind-fight feat, while the casters have a huge problem).

It is, interestingly, only that most DMs simply do not keep up with the arm's race of some players optimising wizard characters.
I have seen it myself happen many times.

The above arguments put forward by Tyndmyr is a prime example. I have no doubt at all that Tyndmyr really believes that his 9th level wizard is nigh unassailable (barring "DM fiat").
But a closer look reveals that when he says to his DM "ah, no problem with your grapplers- I got heart of the water spell protecting me all the time" most DMs will say "Hm, probably you are right - I won't look up the spell in the companion you brought - your wizard is safe from my npc barbarian grappler / elder tojanida/ whatever."
And this is another reason, apart from those Lysander and me already mentioned, that wizards may appear overpowered: simply that for some reason, DMs go soft on wizard players.

Solve that, and you will not need a stricter restriction of spell slots (brought up by the OP) risking spoiling the fun of wizard players.

- Giacomo

Tyndmyr
2010-01-15, 06:01 PM
Here you are right, Sinfire Titan - I should have said "I do not think that an inherent imbalance was put into the original (core) game..." For instance, swift and immediate action spells alone made a big jump away from balance between caster and non-caster classes.

While true, such spells exist in core. Feather fall, for example. Oh, and that old favorite, quicken spell.

But anyhow, this discussion isn't strictly about core.


Now, you did not really think that I would let those go unanswered, did you ? :smallsmile:
In particular since there is no evidence of this to be found in this thread ...

To repeat: a DM should simply challenge wizards with what even the core MM I and npcs offer, and there should not really be a problem.

Not in the slightest....but this wasn't a core discussion.

Challenge is great, but I see nothing here that addresses the original issue of how to get balance within the same rough framework of vancian casting.


A cursory glance at CR 9 MMI creatures (the level more common for your allegedly unassailable level 9 wizard) reveals to me avorals, dragons, air elementals, androsphinx and rocs, all of which are faster than the fly spell (probably I missed out some more). And I do not know what these items of the rainments are, but a teleport needs vocal and somatic components in my book - which may be a problem in some cases (for instance, grappling opponents).

Already pointed out that you can discharge a heart spell to gain freedom of movement for CL rounds. So, Im not at all worried about them grappling me. For those in favor of other methods, dimension door is the cure.

Also, my fly speed is 10ft faster than the fly spell, due to another of the heart buffs. Helps a bit more w the mobility.

The rainment of four is from SpC, and is a pretty commonly used set of caster items. It allows you to spont swap out other spells for the one on the item. For instance, belt of the wide earth allows you to swap out spells for teleport.


Oh, I actually meant monsters that can also cast spells/SLA - not the npc spellcasters (which of course would also be a problem).

Even so...you're essentially depending on balancing casting with casting. Which, you can do that yes, but it doesn't help the fighter much.


Last time I checked the Colossal's Centipede poison save DC of 23 was pretty nasty for an unprotected low-Fort-class at 9th level. The spirit Naga's DC 18 is also nothing to be scoffed at.

I do have only a +7 unbuffed. However, the aforementioned list of buffs provides a +3 via Superior Resistance, +2 vs Prot Evil. So, that puts me at a +12, all the time. Fort is definitely my lowest save, too.

So, to take the centipede poison, I have a 50/50 shot. And it's only dex based, so it really doesn't matter significantly to me. More importantly, it's poison from a ground based mob that isn't terribly hard to avoid in most situations, and it utterly fails against my stacked miss chances.

The naga...it casts as a 9th level sorc. Anything it can cast is more likely to matter than trying to bite me. I'd still pass the save 75% of the time even if one did connect.


Hm. Let me think. Complete darkness (when your wizard does not have darkvision)? Maybe obscuring mist put up by the opponents (most spellcasting monsters and npcs have that)? The keeping part is difficult, admitted - but would also depend in part on the location.

All are fixable by dispel. Or, if in LOS to me, by countering. As I have the storm domain, I do always have an obscuring mist prepared myself.


The heart buffs only work once when released. Their longer-lasting abilities are not so great iirc. And DR is either too low to matter or the wizard is still open for many, many other kinds of attacks. Also, at that level some creatures and npcs will have already true seeing. Or try to fight an Yrthak (another CR 9 core monster the DM can throw at your wizard) with your blur and mirror image - you'll be in for some surprise.

Some things will, yes. That's why the stacked miss chances are not the only form of defense. Sure, DR and energy resistances don't typically absorb the entire attack...but they absorb enough to keep it from being much of a threat, and more importantly, enough to ensure I can pass the con checks if it's a readied attack.

For example, I have FR 20 from heart of fire. This does not require discharging, it's just there, all the time.

Immunity to crits and sneak attacks likewise does not require discharging, but is just there, all the time.


The giants appropriate for that level will tend to not agree with their rock-throwing.
And a +1 bow is not exactly the catch of the day for a 9th level character, especially a wizard. Plus, there is still the wbl limit the DM should usually track closely or imbalance ensues (as per DMG). So these treasures are just part of the normal loot, nothing more.

So, someone has a +1 longbow. One guy w a longbow isn't much of a threat. He needs to have something better to really matter.

For the record, this character has, without buffs other than listed, 69 normal hp. In addition, 28 AC(30 if the attacker is good or evil), and a bonus 18 hit points from Heart of Earth.

So, you need to overcome the miss chances, overcome the AC, AND deal about 90 damage for me to care.


That may be. But how exactly are you going to do a swift action when grappled flat-footed (since a swift action is required for discharging the hart FOM buff)? Plus, a DM may have every right to argue that since iirc the heart of water emulates the FOM with a swift action for everthing, this also includes the V,S components. So, no swift action activation once in a grapple. Sorry.

This requires something that can ignore my miss chances suddenly appearing next to me.

There is no RAW requirement for the swift action activation of the ability having components. By RAW, components are only necessary when casting a spell. So, taking this away would be pure fiat.


It is hilarious, but this at best secures a similar kind of attention from the opponents. When your character is flying and mirror-imaging, he's made himself a prime target for the special attacks from the opponent. It's that simple.

The miss chances are not unique to me. Both rogues carry rings of blink, for example, which they abuse constantly. It's also not unusual for me to give flying to others in the party.

Sure, if Im flying and buffed like mad, and nobody else is, I would obviously attract attention. However, at mid to high levels, any decently equipped party is going to look a bit like a travelling circus, with magic weapons and effects glowing everywhere.


Things like grappling (countering all spells with somatic components), AMF (countering all spells), total concealment (countering all targeted spells, possibly all attacking spells), etc. are all put in there already in the core rules for a reason. And note that mechanisms exist that put the non-casting classes at an advantage even with those challenges (for instance, in total concealment being able to pinpoint with the listen skill and be much better at melee with the blind-fight feat, while the casters have a huge problem).

Thank you for reminding me of total concealment. I do carry a wand of Wings of Cover...Ive not had to use it yet, but it is a great "oh crap" button against particularly nasty attacks. Shame I don't have my UMD high enough to auto-pass, but eh, it's a static DC. I'll be there soon.


The above arguments put forward by Tyndmyr is a prime example. I have no doubt at all that Tyndmyr really believes that his 9th level wizard is nigh unassailable (barring "DM fiat").
But a closer look reveals that when he says to his DM "ah, no problem with your grapplers- I got heart of the water spell protecting me all the time" most DMs will say "Hm, probably you are right - I won't look up the spell in the companion you brought - your wizard is safe from my npc barbarian grappler / elder tojanida/ whatever."

Pah. I write down all buffs given to me and other party members on notecards for easy management. They're down pre-game to prevent any possible confusion over what people have. Other than that, they don't get discussed unless relevant.

I also own the books, and pack them with. If a DM feels a spell is broken, I hand him the book.


And this is another reason, apart from those Lysander and me already mentioned, that wizards may appear overpowered: simply that for some reason, DMs go soft on wizard players.


You are welcome to figure out what sort of credible encounters would pose a significant threat to me, without annihilating the weaker party members.

So far, we've had people pretty much throwing up assailants vs my ongoing, 24/7 buffs and such. We haven't really addressed the issue of the spells I can still cast. =)

JonestheSpy
2010-01-15, 06:36 PM
I invite you to find a way to deal with the following persisted set of buffs, taken from my 9th level incantatrix: Fly, Mirror Image, Blur, Prot: Arrows, Shield, Protection against Evil, Vigor, Protection against Good, The four heart buffs. Non persisted buffs that last long the entire day involve permanencied detect magic, Grtr Mage Armor, and the higher version of Resistance from SpC.

Said character is RAW-legal, has been played from level 1 in an actual game, has a wide variety of wands and scrolls on hand together with a reserve feat(lightening), and has 76 hp and 19 AC unbuffed.

Succumbing to the pull of ceaseless debate over trivia yet again...

As a DM, the challenge is easy: 90% of what the character is relying on is badly written overpowered splatbook cheese that is of course going to unbalance him. Persistent Spell, heart spells, Vigor for non-psionics, etc. Take away such unbalanced options and voila, problem solved.

If your DM let's such things into their campaign that's perfectly fine for them, but I wouldn't go boasting about the prowess of such a character to the world at large, if you know what i mean...

Oslecamo
2010-01-15, 06:58 PM
If your DM let's such things into their campaign that's perfectly fine for them, but I wouldn't go boasting about the prowess of such a character to the world at large, if you know what i mean...

I'm the kind of DM that allows that kind of things in my campaign.

And then the players get to deal with my pimped out monsters throwing high CL dispell effects, high mobility, saves, SR, and a few "out of jail" tricks just in case, plus multiple attacks per turn(or area damage that just goes over all the mirror and miss stuff) to overcome high defenses.

Granted, for an unexperienced DM, or one who doesn't like to pimp out the monsters, said Incantrix should be hit by the nerfhammer.

Runestar
2010-01-15, 07:23 PM
Bribe the fighter with persistented wraithstrike. Then when the DM tries to ban the incantatrix, watch the rest of the party come to your defense more vigorously than you yourself. :smallbiggrin:

Sir Giacomo
2010-01-15, 09:01 PM
I'm the kind of DM that allows that kind of things in my campaign.

And then the players get to deal with my pimped out monsters throwing high CL dispell effects, high mobility, saves, SR, and a few "out of jail" tricks just in case, plus multiple attacks per turn(or area damage that just goes over all the mirror and miss stuff) to overcome high defenses.

Granted, for an unexperienced DM, or one who doesn't like to pimp out the monsters, said Incantrix should be hit by the nerfhammer.

In agreement here. Tyndmyr's comment speaks for itself.
Also, you should normally expact non-caster optimisation fu in a group with such a wizard to be equally awesome.:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

olentu
2010-01-15, 09:10 PM
In agreement here. Tyndmyr's comment speaks for itself.
Also, you should normally expact non-caster optimisation fu in a group with such a wizard to be equally awesome.:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Er, from experience I can say that one should not necessarily expect an equal level of optimization from either casters or non-casters in a group with a well played wizard. Though it is just anecdotal evidence.

Oslecamo
2010-01-15, 09:19 PM
Er, from experience I can say that one should not necessarily expect an equal level of optimization from either casters or non-casters in a group with a well played wizard. Though it is just anecdotal evidence.

Indeed. I'm currently DMing a campaign with:
1-Batman god wizard, heavily pimped out.
2-Pretty straight pure barian with power attack (but not shock trooper) and the rage variant wich gives dex instead of con.
3-Straight psion with all the usual tricks. And metamorphosis, but kept in a short leash in wich forms he's "familiar" with.
4-DMM codzilla healbot. Yes you heard that well, an heavily pimped out cleric wich however spends a good amount of patching up the party as they get hurt. Where's your "combat healing sucz!" god now?:smalltongue:
5-Homebrewed dragon class, medium optimization, since it's homebrew we really don't know what it is truly capable off or not for now.

JonestheSpy
2010-01-15, 09:21 PM
And then the players get to deal with my pimped out monsters throwing high CL dispell effects, high mobility, saves, SR, and a few "out of jail" tricks just in case, plus multiple attacks per turn(or area damage that just goes over all the mirror and miss stuff) to overcome high defenses.


Different styles, whatever people enjoy works. I prefer low inflation games myself: the characters aren't all tricked out, so the foes don't need to be either - except in special cases, and then it gets real interesting...

And addressing Tyndmyr's original point, obviously a good DM will go to whatever lengths neceassary to create challenges that are capable of "dealing with" the characters. I just think it's silly to put out such a full-of-optional-rules character as an example of why spellcasters rule.

Gnaeus
2010-01-15, 09:55 PM
And addressing Tyndmyr's original point, obviously a good DM will go to whatever lengths neceassary to create challenges that are capable of "dealing with" the characters. I just think it's silly to put out such a full-of-optional-rules character as an example of why spellcasters rule.

According to rule 0, all the rules are optional. The rules Tyndmyr is using are no more optional than any other. They are legal per RAW. If I wanted to ban my way to a balanced game, I could do it much faster by ditching core and keeping splatbooks (Psionics, PH2, Tome of Battle and Dungeonscape) than the other way around. If you throw out all the "optional rules" there is nothing left to play with.

And of course, his 9th level incantrix is less overpowering to a tricked out warblade or crusader than a 9th level core wizard is to a core fighter who has just realized that he can't actually fill 11 bonus feat slots with decent core feats.

Oslecamo
2010-01-15, 10:04 PM
According to rule 0, all the rules are optional. The rules Tyndmyr is using are no more optional than any other. They are legal per RAW. If I wanted to ban my way to a balanced game, I could do it much faster by ditching core and keeping splatbooks (Psionics, PH2, Tome of Battle and Dungeonscape) than the other way around. If you throw out all the "optional rules" there is nothing left to play with.

Psionics is the 2nd most powerfull thing in the game after magic. You fixed nothing by adding psionics and throwing out core. And here are some splatbook stuff that any DM must keep an eye for:
1-Several prcs. Incantrix being one of the main offenders.
2-Celerity.
3-Abrupt jaunt wizards.
4-Plenty of other obscure details.

So yes and no, yes you will need to ban stuff now and then, no, you don't need to throw whole books out of the window.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 01:49 AM
Succumbing to the pull of ceaseless debate over trivia yet again...

As a DM, the challenge is easy: 90% of what the character is relying on is badly written overpowered splatbook cheese that is of course going to unbalance him. Persistent Spell, heart spells, Vigor for non-psionics, etc. Take away such unbalanced options and voila, problem solved.

If your DM let's such things into their campaign that's perfectly fine for them, but I wouldn't go boasting about the prowess of such a character to the world at large, if you know what i mean...

Persistant spell is a big part of why I have all of these up, all the time, yes. That said, without the feat and PrC level investment getting that, I could have no doubt gotten something else quite powerful. Should mention that the resist boost and Grtr Mage Armor do not depend on persist, and the wand of Prot:Evil allows me to use the prefight unless surprised, and overland flight would replace fly. So, a non-persist world wouldn't weaken me all that much.

Heart spells are not amazingly cheesy. It's four spells to gain all the benefits, many of which are replicable through other means, including core ways.

Vigor, no psionic tricks involved. It's just an easy way to get out of combat healing. Sometimes we use lesser vigor, depending on what slots the Mystic Theurge has available. It merely allows me to avoid buying a wand of CLW. Not really a big deal.

I believe most of those buffs were core, and the rest are from what, two books? Comp Mage and SpC? Im sure I could do better if I trawled everything, but hey, why make it tough?


I'm the kind of DM that allows that kind of things in my campaign.

And then the players get to deal with my pimped out monsters throwing high CL dispell effects, high mobility, saves, SR, and a few "out of jail" tricks just in case, plus multiple attacks per turn(or area damage that just goes over all the mirror and miss stuff) to overcome high defenses.

Granted, for an unexperienced DM, or one who doesn't like to pimp out the monsters, said Incantrix should be hit by the nerfhammer.

High CL dispel effects: See the aforementioned Ring of counterspelling w Dispel Magic loaded.

High mobility: Meaningless if they can't hit.

High saves: Feh, saves. I can pull a DC 24 save off, but frankly, I prefer things that don't rely on them.

SR: See also, orbs and other SR ignoring spells. Or any of the list of spells that dispose of SR.

Multiple attacks per turn: This isn't unusual at CR9+. I'd be disappointed if it wasn't there. No caster should be surprised by this.

Area Damage: Typically allows me a save, and has an energy type. By the time it gets through the save and resists, it's mostly harmless. If not....it'd kill the other party members outright. Also, does nothing to actually remove the mirror images.


Bribe the fighter with persistented wraithstrike. Then when the DM tries to ban the incantatrix, watch the rest of the party come to your defense more vigorously than you yourself. :smallbiggrin:

This. I tend to make sure I persist at least one buff on each of the other players. I could theoretically persist 24 per day, due to 12 via cooperative metamagic and another 12 applied after the fact. In practice, it tends to be somewhat less due to spell slot limitations, but still...that's useful.

My self-buffing tends to make me invincible, yes...but the rest of the party is more effective than they'd be without me. They're literally happy that I'm effectively invincible, and sometimes request certain buffs. Yes, I *could* be more powerful yet if I kept all buffs for myself, but there's a point of diminishing returns.

I guess what I'm getting at is that while I'm quite able to flatten any other character in the party in a standard action....that's not actually that important in most situations. It's not even important that I contribute more than them in a given scenario, nor is it terribly important that a caster can make themselves invincible....after all, you still need to weigh resources expended on that vs resources spent on other desires. If the party is happy that way, and works together, balance is mostly unnecessary. But yeah, balance isn't really possible by saying "core only", etc.

Oslecamo
2010-01-16, 09:34 AM
High CL dispel effects: See the aforementioned Ring of counterspelling w Dispel Magic loaded.

Good for one shot. But there's multiple combats per day. And they'll be probably be against multiple oponents each. And one single dispel going trough is easily more than enough to ruin a lot of buffs.



High mobility: Meaningless if they can't hit.

Who says they can't hit? A monster whitout a good attack is not a threat to anybody!



High saves: Feh, saves. I can pull a DC 24 save off, but frankly, I prefer things that don't rely on them.

It's easier for the DM to optimize saves than it is for a wizard to optimize DCs. HD advancement rules rock. At 9th level, I can make monsters with around +20 to saves whitout breaking a sweat.



SR: See also, orbs and other SR ignoring spells. Or any of the list of spells that dispose of SR.

Been there, and it isn't as easy as you make it look. Monsters have butloads of HP to survive trough orbs (and many of them will not have rock bottom touch AC, meaning you can miss the touch attack), and there's very very few spells that allow neither a save or SR and can end the battle in one shot. Plus throwing anti-SR measure will drain a wizard's resources twice as fast.



Multiple attacks per turn: This isn't unusual at CR9+. I'd be disappointed if it wasn't there. No caster should be surprised by this.

Indeed. Doesn't change the fact that 8 mirror images aren't that good when you're eating 4 attacks per turn.



Area Damage: Typically allows me a save, and has an energy type. By the time it gets through the save and resists, it's mostly harmless. If not....it'd kill the other party members outright. Also, does nothing to actually remove the mirror images.

There's 5 diferent basic energy types, and then there's force, and then there are some nifty area effects that don't fall on any of those types. So no, I've never seen parties with resistances to all of them, and it isn't really viable to burn 5+ persists on something that may or may not turn up usefull for the day.

And yes, the party should be afraid of area effects. If they get all togheter, they're gonna suffer for it. At 9th level they can more than afford raise dead after all.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 09:54 AM
Good for one shot. But there's multiple combats per day. And they'll be probably be against multiple oponents each. And one single dispel going trough is easily more than enough to ruin a lot of buffs.

Multiple combats per day? Eh, after the charge gets used, I pump another dispel magic into the ring. There's no limit on how frequently it can be used, provided you replace the spell within it.

And Dispel Magic is something Id be packing anyway, even I wasn't use a ring of counterspelling.

Additionally, I can partially solve this problem through superior movement. Casting a standard action spell, then moving out of LoS is an easy way to avoid various nasty things, or at least, force them to navigate through the melee types, taking AoOs to do so.


Who says they can't hit? A monster whitout a good attack is not a threat to anybody!

See also, miss chances.


It's easier for the DM to optimize saves than it is for a wizard to optimize DCs. HD advancement rules rock. At 9th level, I can make monsters with around +20 to saves whitout breaking a sweat.

It's possible to optimize saves, yes. You'll note that I mentioned by preference for using no-save stuff. Plus, if the DM optimizes saves vs me, others will be disappointed by their stuff never working at all.

I mean, the stunning fist has a substantially lower DC than my highest level spells. Due to being MAD, the mystic theurge also has lower DCs than me. Ditto the assassins.


Been there, and it isn't as easy as you make it look. Monsters have butloads of HP to survive trough orbs (and many of them will not have rock bottom touch AC, meaning you can miss the touch attack), and there's very very few spells that allow neither a save or SR and can end the battle in one shot. Plus throwing anti-SR measure will drain a wizard's resources twice as fast.

Most mobs have pretty low touch attacks. Let's look at CR9 mobs.

Air Elemental: Touch 18
Avoral: Touch 16
Black Dragon, Young: touch 9
Copper Dragon, Young: touch 9
Cryohydra: touch 9
Delver: touch 9
Deamon, Vrock: touch 11
Devil, Bone: touch 14

I just started listing them off, and even with my ranged attack bonus of +10, it's clear that I'll almost invariably hit. My strength blows, sure, so melee touch attacks are out of the question, but it's very rare for a mob to have good touch AC AND SR AND a pile of hp.


Indeed. Doesn't change the fact that 8 mirror images aren't that good when you're eating 4 attacks per turn.

Well, I guess if I stood there and let myself get full attacked, sure. Blur also stacks with mirror image, so even the images have miss chances. I'm curious where you're getting flying, high touch ac, four attacks off a standard action, high SR, high hp mobs from at level 9.

Im also curious how you expect the melee types to deal with such beasts.


There's 5 diferent basic energy types, and then there's force, and then there are some nifty area effects that don't fall on any of those types. So no, I've never seen parties with resistances to all of them, and it isn't really viable to burn 5+ persists on something that may or may not turn up usefull for the day.

My previously mentioned gear and buffs mean I have a constant Resist 20 fire, resist 5 cold, resist 5 electricity. Those are the most common, and I certainly have spells I can cast if I need bonuses to other things.

What mobs can reasonably do solid damage to me via force or untyped damage AOEs at level 9? What can the melee guys be expected to do against them?

Emmerask
2010-01-16, 10:14 AM
It's possible to optimize saves, yes. You'll note that I mentioned by preference for using no-save stuff. Plus, if the DM optimizes saves vs me, others will be disappointed by their stuff never working at all.

I mean, the stunning fist has a substantially lower DC than my highest level spells. Due to being MAD, the mystic theurge also has lower DCs than me. Ditto the assassins.


So you put your dm into an position where he either gives you a real challenge or let the other players have fun during combat...

Hm to each his own I guess I would be bored in about two seconds playing such a highly optimized caster.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 10:18 AM
So you put your dm into an position where he either gives you a real challenge or let the other players have fun during combat...

Hm to each his own I guess I would be bored in about two seconds playing such a highly optimized caster.

Not dying is hardly the only "real challenge" available in D&D.

Diagoras
2010-01-16, 10:34 AM
I've always felt that it was a setting issue. Running a good Dark Sun game is a nice way to smack annoying casters upside the head, and it's still damn good fun to play a wizard.

I had a DM once who ran a game with a rather Lovecraftian magic feel. As you cast more spells/more powerful spells, you increased the chance that... things would notice you. Very nasty things. Casters were encouraged to be low-key and subtle.

In both settings, finding spells is hard. Finding powerful spells is really hard. Wizards have to scramble for all the arcane knowledge they can find.

And honestly, I enjoy that so much more. Playing some sort of laser-shooting super ninja god is uninteresting to me. I want to feel like a wizard, like a master of arcane power so mysterious and terrifying that even knowing of it can blow your mind. Not some guy with a magical machine gun.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-16, 10:42 AM
Playing some sort of laser-shooting super ninja god is uninteresting to me. I want to feel like a wizard, like a master of arcane power so mysterious and terrifying that even knowing of it can blow your mind. Not some guy with a magical machine gun.

Dibs on "Guy with a magical Machine gun "

lesser_minion
2010-01-16, 11:57 AM
And Dispel Magic is something Id be packing anyway, even I wasn't use a ring of counterspelling.

See also: Suppression enchantment. No, it cannot be negated with a ring of counterspelling. Hope you were able to take out everyone using it.


Additionally, I can partially solve this problem through superior movement. Casting a standard action spell, then moving out of LoS is an easy way to avoid various nasty things, or at least, force them to navigate through the melee types, taking AoOs to do so.

There's no guarantee that there's anywhere to hide. You took a few ranks of Tumble, right?


See also, miss chances.

See also, dungeon, dust of appearance, auto-hit with no counter whatsoever.



It's possible to optimize saves, yes. You'll note that I mentioned by preference for using no-save stuff. Plus, if the DM optimizes saves vs me, others will be disappointed by their stuff never working at all.

Bring enough warm bodies to force the wizard to make a choice. Spread them out a bit. Exploit the wizard's likely weak spot check. Don't forget Nystul's magic aura. Also exploit the new arrivals rules to get all of the important debuffs into play without the wizard being able to respond.


I mean, the stunning fist has a substantially lower DC than my highest level spells. Due to being MAD, the mystic theurge also has lower DCs than me. Ditto the assassins.

Sure, everyone can hit, it's just a matter of figuring out who to hit.



Well, I guess if I stood there and let myself get full attacked, sure. Blur also stacks with mirror image, so even the images have miss chances. I'm curious where you're getting flying, high touch ac, four attacks off a standard action, high SR, high hp mobs from at level 9.

We started combat by hitting you with an area effect that suppresses, among other things, blur, mirror image, and every kind of invisibility.


Im also curious how you expect the melee types to deal with such beasts.

My previously mentioned gear and buffs mean I have a constant Resist 20 fire, resist 5 cold, resist 5 electricity. Those are the most common, and I certainly have spells I can cast if I need bonuses to other things.


What mobs can reasonably do solid damage to me via force or untyped damage AOEs at level 9? What can the melee guys be expected to do against them?

Who cares about AoEs?

Nothing needs to happen while you still have any way of mirror imaging yourself.

Also, what will your touch AC be after at least four targeted dispel attempts with a +11 bonus to the check? It might be worth checking.

jseah
2010-01-16, 01:02 PM
How are you going to launch a dust of appearance trap without it showing up on a detect magic or arcane sight?
EDIT: do please remember that magic aura spell has to be cast daily and can't be made permanent.

Besides, an encounter where the enemies prepared a trap and then ambushes from multiple directions with specific anti-magic preparation and multiple wave attacks is basically a full-fledged ambush.

In which case, it stands a very good chance of spooking the player and forcing the wizard to cast DD/Teleport and escape with the party. Screw the mission, my life is more important.

lesser_minion
2010-01-16, 01:36 PM
How are you going to launch a dust of appearance trap without it showing up on a detect magic or arcane sight?
EDIT: do please remember that magic aura spell has to be cast daily and can't be made permanent.

So it's cast daily. If they're going to bother, then there is someone around who can do that.

Alternatively, have a seemingly non-threatening guy walk up and throw it as the surprise round. I don't think 9th level guys can persist much that lets them act in the surprise round.


Besides, an encounter where the enemies prepared a trap and then ambushes from multiple directions with specific anti-magic preparation and multiple wave attacks is basically a full-fledged ambush.

In which case, it stands a very good chance of spooking the player and forcing the wizard to cast DD/Teleport and escape with the party. Screw the mission, my life is more important.

Why is that a problem? You lose, congratulations. Do you have a plan for your next attempt to conquer this terrifying group of unoptimised, under-equipped enemies?

Runeclaw
2010-01-16, 01:54 PM
Hah. Who dies first, the front line guy or the one in back?[QUOTE]

It really depends on whether the enemies have any of the following:

A) Ranged Weapons
B) Spells of their own
C) The ability to move

[QUOTE]Why do you assume spells are limited, but hitpoints are not?[/QUOTE

HP are limited, but in a grueling campaign, this should be another advantage of a Fighter, as he has more of them. Its only a limmitation of a Fighter more so than a Wizard if you assume the Wizard isn't taking damage. Which I realize is the general assumption here, but which I don't really see making sense for intelligently-played level-appropriate enemies.

[QUOTE]Plus, a single reserve feat makes this entire line of reasoning fail, as I can happily spam nukes all day long, every single round for the investment of a single feat.

True. But the damage you're doing at this point is much less then would be doing with spells, and probably less than the Fighter is doing.

jseah
2010-01-16, 01:55 PM
Sorry, I've been forgetting my kiting tactics. DD out then come back from another angle 5 mins later.

lesser_minion
2010-01-16, 02:13 PM
Sorry, I've been forgetting my kiting tactics. DD out then come back from another angle 5 mins later.

What other angle?

Sure, you have a chance to refresh your buffs, and you've also waited out the dust of appearance.

There is also nothing to see. They aren't going to hang around and wait to be slaughtered, and you have no way of finding them (your rogue might be able to find out where they went, but there's no guarantee you'll even be able to follow).

And you've still lost, because waiting five minutes allows them to make sure you can't complete your goal here. The MacGuffin has either left the building or been destroyed, and the bad guy is gone.

That assumes they didn't have a caster to hit you with enervation before you left. I can still potentially wipe out your buffs by lowering the CR of the archers to 5, and that allows me to also buy a guy who can cast enervation.

-1d4 to caster level has a fair chance of denying you access to your top two spell levels until someone can slap you with a restoration.

From there, I'm eyeballing by leaving the main enemies under-equipped and adding some CR 1 or less mooks.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 05:12 PM
Wait, wait...so we have to assume that we hit traps that we somehow missed, due to them being refreshed with Undetectable Aura daily.

That somehow this trap also hit the caster, because apparently casters like to take point in hostile dungeons.

We have to assume that the caster somehow can't break LOS, but also that the dungeon is restrictive enough that he can't escape from melee attack.

We also have to assume that the wizard is being attacked from a number of directions by a large volume of attackers, that he doesn't detect any of the arrivals until they're in range, and he'll be taking several targetted dispels.

You also assume that for some undefined reason, the caster can't take even five minutes to regroup.


Yes, you can kill a single caster with half a dozen other ambushing casters, if you choose. This doesn't prove anything, and those same dozen casters can gut the rest of the party with similar ease. The point is that in an effort to overcome the caster, you make it pretty impossible for anyone else to win.

This is not an example of a DM overcoming class differences with encounter design.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-16, 05:27 PM
Lots of stuff that makes since

Or an exercise in the DM being a DB.

Quite honestly, throwing all that against just a caster is silly.

lesser_minion
2010-01-16, 05:49 PM
Wait, wait...so we have to assume that we hit traps that we somehow missed, due to them being refreshed with Undetectable Aura daily.

That somehow this trap also hit the caster, because apparently casters like to take point in hostile dungeons.


Alternatively, have a seemingly non-threatening guy walk up and throw it as the surprise round. I don't think 9th level guys can persist much that lets them act in the surprise round.

The guy who attacks you to start with is blind, and seems to be missing at least two limbs. How's your Sense Motive?


We have to assume that the caster somehow can't break LOS, but also that the dungeon is restrictive enough that he can't escape from melee attack.

What? No, he can't escape from a ranged attack. I said nothing about melee.


We also have to assume that the wizard is being attacked from a number of directions by a large volume of attackers, that he doesn't detect any of the arrivals until they're in range, and he'll be taking several targetted dispels.

Two archer opponents with suppression items, exploiting the new combatants rule while the wizard's miss chances are gone. That's four +11 targeted dispels, by my count.


You also assume that for some undefined reason, the caster can't take even five minutes to regroup.

It takes five minutes before you have any chance of gaining an advantage. What do you think enemies that can't beat you in a straight-up fight are going to do if they have a MacGuffin that they don't want you to have but were hoping to use?


Yes, you can kill a single caster with half a dozen other ambushing casters, if you choose. This doesn't prove anything, and those same dozen casters can gut the rest of the party with similar ease. The point is that in an effort to overcome the caster, you make it pretty impossible for anyone else to win.

No real casters, beyond the guy who comes along every day to cast Undetectable Aura and who made all of the various decoy items the mooks are carrying to make it harder to identify which enemies are actually a threat.

I actually assumed two level 6 psychic warriors, underequipped, a trap, and a few CR 1 enemies.

If a wizard does that on his own, he either has a lot of castings of Wind Wall, he gets out right after the surprise round, or he gets pretty badly injured.

Done with a fighter and a rogue on hand, the party could win, even if it's just by having more people to soak a hit.

I haven't applied fiat anywhere, although "no experience because you raised the alarm" is pretty harsh. I just assumed that the enemy is expecting to face casters (if anything at all), and came prepared, knowing that they would lose a straight fight.

Normally, I'd avoid using enervation just because it's pretty horrible as long as it's in use. Or I'd houserule out the minimum CL requirement on spells. If you're going to pull an exploited incantatrix build, that would change.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 05:58 PM
Well, first off, you've DEFINITELY got favorable circumstances, since it's, well, an ambush by opponents tailored to kill you. The DMG explicitly says that this modifies ECL. If we use the standard +2, that's already pretty significant.

You have two CR 6 PC-classed enemies, equipped with suppression items as well as apparently, items of true seeing, a trap, and a few CR 1 mooks. This is sufficiently complicated to be a bit awkward to calculate, but just the pair of CR 6 mobs become a CR8 encounter, CR 10 with favorable circumstances.

Im not sure what the trap CR is, and CR 1 mooks likely won't affect the challenge rating all that much, but those still all contribute to adjust it further upward. At a bare minimum, you're looking at CR 11, even if you entirely overlook the fact that replacing the assumed NPC classes with PC classes boosts encounter difficulty.


Oddly enough, this is not a fully exploited build. It's a good build yes, but others have already suggested how to improve(IE, wind wall being superior to prot: arrows, etc). I *could* persist substantially more spells...I could make a practice of using things like celerity and nerveskitter.

lesser_minion
2010-01-16, 06:09 PM
Well, first off, you've DEFINITELY got favorable circumstances, since it's, well, an ambush by opponents tailored to kill you. The DMG explicitly says that this modifies ECL. If we use the standard +2, that's already pretty significant.

Good point. That puts it a point above your APL instead of a point below.


You have two CR 6 PC-classed enemies, equipped with suppression items as well as apparently, items of true seeing, a trap, and a few CR 1 mooks. This is sufficiently complicated to be a bit awkward to calculate, but just the pair of CR 6 mobs become a CR8 encounter, CR 10 with favorable circumstances.

What items of true seeing? Assuming you get dusted, what defences do you actually have, because I'm pretty sure it takes out all of them.

All your opponents need is a way of telling whether or not the decoy worked. Suppression is a +2 enhancement - each suppression arrow costs 187gp. 327gp is more likely, because if we're going to extend the "this is a general setup", I can see them also being upped to include something extra for incorporeal opponents.

For fairness, the other arrows are somewhere in the dungeon, so you could find them.


Im not sure what the trap CR is, and CR 1 mooks likely won't affect the challenge rating all that much, but those still all contribute to adjust it further upward. At a bare minimum, you're looking at CR 11, even if you entirely overlook the fact that replacing the assumed NPC classes with PC classes boosts encounter difficulty.

The trap isn't needed and is a less effective way to pull this off.

And where are NPC classes assumed? A PC class has a CR roughly equal to their level.


celerity

That could potentially get you out of this mess.


wind wall

It's a 'genuine' evocation though (as in, not something you can replace successfully with one of the shadow line).

The point is that there are a few ways to punish casters for not having a blanket "no" ability against ranged attacks, and I'm pretty sure Wind Wall is the only one that's likely to come into play this low a level.

Overall, this is just the absolute lowest-level version possible of the encounter I suggested right at the start. I'd probably use a higher level version and go for something that gives the wizard more of a chance in actual play.

I haven't checked the treasure, but I'm pretty sure I can include more in an EL10 encounter than four arrows and an 1,800gp bag of magic dust.





Oddly enough, this is not a fully exploited build. It's a good build yes, but others have already suggested how to improve(IE, wind wall being superior to prot: arrows, etc). I *could* persist substantially more spells...I could make a practice of using things like celerity and nerveskitter.

True. It's still pretty excessive though. Most things in the game were balanced on the basis that the only thing you'd be able to persist at this level are cantrips.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 06:31 PM
What items of true seeing? Assuming you get dusted, what defences do you actually have, because I'm pretty sure it takes out all of them.

I believe this was mentioned before as a way of negating the miss chances. It does work, of course, but the items are sufficiently valuable that I'm ok with that.


All your opponents need is a way of telling whether or not the decoy worked. Suppression is a +2 enhancement - each suppression arrow costs 187gp. 327gp is more likely, because if we're going to extend the "this is a general setup", I can see them also being upped to include something extra for incorporeal opponents.

They don't have that by default, though. If they're in LOS, then there's a reasonable chance that the party will detect them before they get to do anything.


The trap isn't needed and is a less effective way to pull this off.

Well, if you're relying on hand delivery, you need a way to pick out who the caster is, and a way to get within ten feet of them. Interestingly enough, depending on mirror image layout, you're not even guaranteed to get all the images, so you still have a failure rate from that, even if the party somehow allows people to wander to within 10 feet of them unhindered while on a mission.


And where are NPC classes assumed? A PC class has a CR roughly equal to their level.

NPC classes are for NPCs. PC classes are rare. Now, the players are obviously not the only PCs on earth, but NPCs are the assumed standard.


That could potentially get you out of this mess.

It likely would. I don't normally prepare it, since it does eat slots I need for other things, but if a DM tried to play optimization games to assassinate me, my level of paranoia would likely increase, and I'd take it. I do know the spell, after all. No reason to not be prepared.


So, lets say the ambush somehow works. You fire four suppression arrows at me. I wings of cover the first(or first attack of the second guy if you like, due to surprise. Mathematically, it doesn't matter). This leaves you with one primary attack and two iteratives that need to hit me. So, I'm at 28 AC...30 if you're not neutral. I see it as highly unlikely that you'll hit with all three.

It's a targeted dispel psionics effect. Due to using the bog standard magic/psionics equivalence, this spell is equivalent to dispel magic, and thus, can be countered by it. So, your first hit is ignored.

You need a minimum of two hits in three attacks(two of which are iteratives) to do anything at all. Even if you DO get a dispel through...the archers will still die horribly. They only managed to provide a mild annoyance by disrupting my buff cycle. The amount of actual weakening here is minimal, and it's an above party level encounter that pretty much just provided xp and loot.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 06:34 PM
True. It's still pretty excessive though. Most things in the game were balanced on the basis that the only thing you'd be able to persist at this level are cantrips.

Dude, at this level, with no shenanigans whatsoever, you can cast permanency, which is flat out superior to persist(well, save for xp cost). There's a coupla level 1 spells on the list for level 9. If I had even a single CL booster, I could permanency such things as invisibility.

That's possible in pure core. Persist isn't really the root cause of balance problems.

lesser_minion
2010-01-16, 07:05 PM
Dude, at this level, with no shenanigans whatsoever, you can cast permanency, which is flat out superior to persist(well, save for xp cost). There's a coupla level 1 spells on the list for level 9. If I had even a single CL booster, I could permanency such things as invisibility.

You might want to read the actual list of spells you can permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm). Sure, you might be able to do a lot with invisible objects, but you aren't ambushing anyone. Off the top of my head, there are no really good ways to abuse it apart from wish-looping, which doesn't count because it breaks everything.


Well, if you're relying on hand delivery, you need a way to pick out who the caster is, and a way to get within ten feet of them. Interestingly enough, depending on mirror image layout, you're not even guaranteed to get all the images, so you still have a failure rate from that, even if the party somehow allows people to wander to within 10 feet of them unhindered while on a mission.

It could be tricky, yes. But a party isn't likely to suspect much from a visibly blinded character with only one leg and one arm.


NPC classes are for NPCs. PC classes are rare. Now, the players are obviously not the only PCs on earth, but NPCs are the assumed standard.

Most of the EL 9 monsters aren't exactly that common on the material plane, are they?


It likely would. I don't normally prepare it, since it does eat slots I need for other things, but if a DM tried to play optimization games to assassinate me, my level of paranoia would likely increase, and I'd take it. I do know the spell, after all. No reason to not be prepared.

Of course, there is the point that these enemies are apparently spending six seconds twiddling their thumbs. I can cut that and leave you without celerity and wings of cover.


So, lets say the ambush somehow works. You fire four suppression arrows at me. I wings of cover the first(or first attack of the second guy if you like, due to surprise. Mathematically, it doesn't matter). This leaves you with one primary attack and two iteratives that need to hit me. So, I'm at 28 AC...30 if you're not neutral. I see it as highly unlikely that you'll hit with all three.

Check the rules for new combatants.

You're still flat-footed unless you have an "automatically act in the surprise round" effect up (in which case you win initiative and nuke the guy before he gets to dust anything, and the guys who were going to ambush you wander off and think of something else).

So you're not wings of covering anything.


It's a targeted dispel psionics effect. Due to using the bog standard magic/psionics equivalence, this spell is equivalent to dispel magic, and thus, can be countered by it. So, your first hit is ignored.

Psionics/Magic Transparency doesn't work that way. It allows dispel magic to work against powers, it allows Dispel psionic to work against spells. It doesn't make any spell equivalent to any power, or vice versa, and nor does it allow psionic powers to be countered at all.

Even if Suppression was a Dispel Magic effect, it still wouldn't slide. There is no spell to counter.

One of the other reasons counterspelling is suboptimal is that 60% of things it could be used against aren't subject to it.


You need a minimum of two hits in three attacks(two of which are iteratives) to do anything at all. Even if you DO get a dispel through...the archers will still die horribly. They only managed to provide a mild annoyance by disrupting my buff cycle. The amount of actual weakening here is minimal, and it's an above party level encounter that pretty much just provided xp and loot.

What's your touch AC? "Struck by the arrow", not actually damaged. And neither of your ways out of this work by RAW. Also, what iteratives? I don't know of any full BAB full manifesting classes.

As I said, actually pulling this with an EL 10 encounter would be stretching things horribly.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 07:25 PM
With a blind guy? Listen checks. The way I read it, there is now one character who looks completely different to the others. And the blind guy can throw it as a splash weapon without total concealment causing a problem because he still can't miss.

Dust is not a splash weapon. You fling it, it coats objects within a 10 ft radius.


Most of the EL 9 monsters aren't exactly that common on the material plane, are they?

Varying. According to the SRD, 4 out of 30 are outsiders. I presume all of those would be comparatively rare on the material plane. The commonness of the rest depends on the campaign setting. Things like Giants don't have any particular reason to be extremely rare, but they could be.


Of course, there is the point that these enemies are apparently spending six seconds twiddling their thumbs when the optimal thing to do is nail you while you don't even have that.

Huh?


Check the rules for new combatants.

What? I don't contest that they have a higher init than me.


You're still flat-footed unless you have an "automatically act in the surprise round" effect up (in which case you win initiative and nuke the guy before he gets to dust anything, and the guys who were going to ambush you wander off and think of something else).

So you're not wings of covering anything.

Negative. It's an existing combat. So...Im not flat-footed by default. Either it's a surprise round, or it's new combatants in an existing combat. You can't have it both ways.

Once Im aware of attacks, I can most definitely use wings of cover. I don't need it to be my turn to use it.

For the record, my FF is 22/24(good/evil).


Psionics/Magic Transparency doesn't work that way. It allows dispel magic to work against powers, it allows Dispel psionic to work against spells. It doesn't make any spell equivalent to any power, or vice versa, and nor does it allow psionic powers to be countered at all.

Even if Suppression was a Dispel Magic effect, it still wouldn't slide. There is no spell to counter.

One of the other reasons counterspelling is suboptimal is that 60% of things it could be used against aren't subject to it.

From the SRD: "All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa."

Equal effect is equal effect.

Counterspelling is usually considered suboptimal because of action economy, not because of it not actually countering a spell. Unless you make a heavy duty counterspelling optimized build, it results in basically trading actions and spell slots without doing anything....under ideal conditions. Ring of counterspells doesn't have this weakness, since it's exempt from action economy.


What's your touch AC? "Struck by the arrow", not actually damaged. And neither of your ways out of this work by RAW.

Touch AC 16. Not that it matters. The wording is Struck. Not touched. It's extremely common for words like struck to be used interchangeably with "successful hit". It's a weapon enchantment. It doesn't work on a touch attack by default, so you need it to explicitly say it does.

lesser_minion
2010-01-16, 07:42 PM
"All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa."

Which doesn't allow you to counterspell. It means you can cast dispel magic to take out a power, and it means you can cast dispel psionics to take out a spell. It doesn't mean that dispel psionics can be counterspelled, because it is not Dispel magic.

Psionics/magic transparency doesn't make it into dispel magic, and psionic powers don't counter each other.

Also note that Dispel Psionics can't even be translated into dispel magic by translating augmentation into autoscaling.



Counterspelling is usually considered suboptimal because of action economy, not because of it not actually countering a spell. Unless you make a heavy duty counterspelling optimized build, it results in basically trading actions and spell slots without doing anything....under ideal conditions. Ring of counterspells doesn't have this weakness, since it's exempt from action economy.

Next to nothing can be countered - it's literally, a spell. Even spell-like abilities can't be countered, and nor can psionic powers. The only items that can be countered are scrolls. Everything else is "I do something to produce a spell effect".

Even if it didn't require a readied action, it would suck.


What? I don't contest that they have a higher init than me.

I actually think this is pretty low, but by RAW, they can walk onto the stage after the surprise round, auto-win initiative, and still have all of you flat-footed and without immediate actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#immediateActions).

The bottom line is that I wouldn't use this encounter. It's something a DM could use if they wanted to optimise it for all it's worth, but I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. Or even have much use for it, given my players and the playstyle I use.

Pop another point of EL for a 7th-level caster and this becomes pretty horrible, depending mostly on how optimised the attack rolls of the first two archers are.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 08:32 PM
Which doesn't allow you to counterspell. It means you can cast dispel magic to take out a power, and it means you can cast dispel psionics to take out a spell. It doesn't mean that dispel psionics can be counterspelled, because it is not Dispel magic.

Psionics/magic transparency doesn't make it into dispel magic, and psionic powers don't counter each other.

Also note that Dispel Psionics can't even be translated into dispel magic by translating augmentation into autoscaling.

I can see the argument that the ring wouldn't be triggered, due to the spell name being different. However, you most certainly could counterspell dispel pisonics with dispel magic when transparency is in place.

Functionally, it works. The only question is if it triggers. This depends entirely on how you interpret "equal effect".


Next to nothing can be countered - it's literally, a spell. Even spell-like abilities can't be countered, and nor can psionic powers. The only items that can be countered are scrolls. Everything else is "I do something to produce a spell effect".

Even if it didn't require a readied action, it would suck.

Anything that results in a spell(or an equivalent, such as scrolls like you mentioned) being cast can be countered. If dispel magic can counter spells, and it has an "equal effect" on psioncs, then yes, it can counter psionics.


I actually think this is pretty low, but by RAW, they can walk onto the stage after the surprise round, auto-win initiative, and still have all of you flat-footed and without immediate actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#immediateActions).

The bottom line is that I wouldn't use this encounter. It's something a DM could use if they wanted to optimise it for all it's worth, but I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. Or even have much use for it, given my players and the playstyle I use.

That's requiring a very interesting definition that I've never actually seen. If everyone is that close together, they would normally simply be included as part of the surprise round.

I haven't really seen any good justification why an ambushing party would use init in such a way...everyone present goes in the surprise round. New combatants is intended for if others stumble on you midway through, and it'd require some pretty heavy wrangling to try to make it RAW-legal to split things up in that way.


Pop another point of EL for a 7th-level caster and this becomes pretty horrible, depending mostly on how optimised the attack rolls of the first two archers are.

Could be. But now we're looking at something like a +3 CL encounter, designed specifically to alpha strike a single caster.

This doesn't really do anything to fix caster/melee balance. Such an encounter could easily also be quite lethal to melee types.

Solaris
2010-01-16, 08:32 PM
Dibs on "Guy with a magical Machine gun "

Beatcha to it.
Reminds me - firearms of a near-modern sort make wizards unhappy at levels 6 and below. A'course, they make everybody unhappy. Weight gain and lead poisoning and whatnot.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 08:34 PM
Oddly enough, in one Pbp game Im playing, I actually am a level 3 guy with firearms. Yay! First level expert, two levels of wizard. All those first level slots(and ten pearls of power)? True strike. Over and over again.

Wizard w machinegun = badass.

Slayn82
2010-01-16, 08:40 PM
True strike potions can do a good job against concealment happy characthers. Humorously, against mirror images you just have to close your eyes when you shoot (so you ignore the images but get the concealment penalty - that truestrike bypass. Just have possibility of LoS). That arrow is a lot more likely to hit. I would go with that weapon enchantment that 3xday blocks for 10 minutes teleportation that is on MiC. And poison is par for the course. Just hide a little.

Telekinesis is also a good excelent way to cover distance on the battlefield. By throwing the melee guys at the casters. Dungeoncrasher fun? Or maybe using a siege weapon + feather fall.

And hey, those useless lvl 1 minions can throw projectiles around against those mirror images. Thats usefull.

And counterspelling is not that bad if you are a weaker caster preventing a heavy metamagiced spell from resolving (and thus as good as a buff on your main threat/teamplayer) or area SoL that would wipe weaker members of your side (better than healing or casting a lot of protection from elements). If there's not that many quickened spells around, its viable. Action economy also involves the actions of other members of your side.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 08:45 PM
Yeah, counterspelling is actually a lot more viable as an NPC tactic. Faced a caster with decent counterspelling ability last fri, as part of a very large encounter, and it was...reasonably annoying. Playing "break LOS to the counterspeller" is pretty much what I was doing. She couldn't actually hurt me much, due to circumstances, but she could relatively easily limit my actions.

That said, dedicated counterspellers are really annoying to play against. It's like sending swarms or incorpoeal attackers against low level parties, when only the casters can do something. Use with great caution.

Solaris
2010-01-16, 08:47 PM
Oddly enough, in one Pbp game Im playing, I actually am a level 3 guy with firearms. Yay! First level expert, two levels of wizard. All those first level slots(and ten pearls of power)? True strike. Over and over again.

Wizard w machinegun = badass.

... How in God's name did you get so many pearls at that level?
A'course the wizard can use the m'gun better than the fighter can. Everyone can do the fighter's job better than the fighter can - but everyone still splats the same. I once had a fighter who just trundled around dungeons with a cannon loaded full of grapeshot. Chunky salsa indeed.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 08:50 PM
Yeah...that's an extremely non-raw game. Basically, it's a "you have a portal from real life, $1000, and 24 hours to prepare. Go nuts". The conversion rate of matches from real world dollars to gold pieces is sufficiently extreme that I broke WBL horrifically. Over 80k GP.

An interesting thought experiment, and probably not far off from what I'd do in real life, if it happened. Also, I packed with my D&D books. Imagine, the ability to metagame from within the game.

Slayn82
2010-01-16, 09:04 PM
Lvl 3 already? Wow, those clerics were good, heh?

I want to level too... i've even got explosives, meatgrinders and stuff.

Fortuna
2010-01-16, 09:22 PM
Just sticking my head back in here. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to mention wizards after all...

So what I'm seeing, before it degenerated into the classic "My wizard is overpowered" and "The wizard can't do anything about this" and "Nyuh-uh, they so can" and all of the rest of the classic wizard thread, is that people think "no"? That's a shame. Ah well, back to the drawing board.

Diagoras
2010-01-16, 10:41 PM
Just sticking my head back in here. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to mention wizards after all...

So what I'm seeing, before it degenerated into the classic "My wizard is overpowered" and "The wizard can't do anything about this" and "Nyuh-uh, they so can" and all of the rest of the classic wizard thread, is that people think "no"? That's a shame. Ah well, back to the drawing board.

I took a shot at addressing the actual issue. A good setting and DM can easily restore the balance and keep casters fun to play, IMO. No need for all this terrifying analysis.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-16, 11:22 PM
Just sticking my head back in here. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to mention wizards after all...

So what I'm seeing, before it degenerated into the classic "My wizard is overpowered" and "The wizard can't do anything about this" and "Nyuh-uh, they so can" and all of the rest of the classic wizard thread, is that people think "no"? That's a shame. Ah well, back to the drawing board.

Basically, it's just that the classes are inherently unbalanced. It's not even a set spell slot thing, as if taking a few away will fix it...it's that magic scales differently than melee. Tweaking the number of spells will change the point at which the wizard exceeds the fighter, but it won't change the basic inequality between them.

I don't think that this balance issue can be fixed without rather significant changes to the system itself....but then, Im not sure how much of a problem a lack of balance actually is.

Do characters really need to be balanced? This ain't an MMO.

2xMachina
2010-01-16, 11:53 PM
Being all powerful and not likely to die =/= not fun.

It's just a matter of taste. Personally, I don't care for the risk of death. Challenge also does not mean needing to throw epic things. Sometimes, some players just like to kill things, and not "Oh ****, they're pwning us".

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-17, 01:04 AM
The issue with counterspellers, is that once they're geared up to do it, the only ways to beat them with a caster are:

1) Stealth
2) Action Advantage; i.e. throw more spells than they can counter.

When level 3 Dispel Magics can be made to autodispel/counter CL 20 spells at level 12? Yeah.

My typical favored way to play a wizard?

Wearing chain shirts, with a bow, and still silent spells, reduced to +0 with metareducers. Now? I'm a cowardly archer.

Yukitsu
2010-01-17, 03:01 AM
How do you autodispel at level 12 against caster level 20? Arcane mastery for take 10, a dispel cord for +4 a few times per day, and I think there was a feat that gives +2, and dispel caps at caster level 10. That's a 26 on the dispel check, which only stops caster level 15.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-17, 03:10 AM
How do you autodispel at level 12 against caster level 20? Arcane mastery for take 10, a dispel cord for +4 a few times per day, and I think there was a feat that gives +2, and dispel caps at caster level 10. That's a 26 on the dispel check, which only stops caster level 15.

Arcane mastery (Take 10)
Dispel CL bonus +10
Dispel Cord (+2)
Master Specialist Abjurer (+4)
Spellcaster's Bane: Comp Mage (+2)
Planar touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment - Inquisition Domain) (+4)

That's a dispel check of 32, which will dispel CL 21.

Yrcrazypa
2010-01-17, 03:49 AM
There is no particular reason a wizard is identifiable as such prior to casting. The two most unique class attributes, a familiar and a spellbook, are generally not taken/visible before battle. Or even used in battle at all, for that matter.

Identifying the caster after he's started casting is dead easy, of course, but by then, it's generally too late.

You have the incredible hulk wearing a tank, an elf wearing mithril chain, another guy in heavy armor, and then a guy wearing normal clothes. Guess who the wizard is?

mostlyharmful
2010-01-17, 03:55 AM
You have the incredible hulk wearing a tank, an elf wearing mithril chain, another guy in heavy armor, and then a guy wearing normal clothes. Guess who the wizard is?

the one in mithril chain? or has he got a disguise self effect on from a spell or an item in which case maybe the incredible hulk? or is it a double bluff and it's the guy in normal clothes because his twilight mithril chain is glamoured that way?

I give up, which one is it?

Sliver
2010-01-17, 04:18 AM
You have the incredible hulk wearing a tank, an elf wearing mithril chain, another guy in heavy armor, and then a guy wearing normal clothes. Guess who the wizard is?

I have a cleric wearing Glamered full plate, your point is..?


the one in mithril chain? or has he got a disguise self effect on from a spell or an item in which case maybe the incredible hulk? or is it a double bluff and it's the guy in normal clothes because his twilight mithril chain is glamoured that way?

I give up, which one is it?

Could be the one in heavy armor casting still spells!

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-17, 04:40 AM
You have the incredible hulk wearing a tank, an elf wearing mithril chain, another guy in heavy armor, and then a guy wearing normal clothes. Guess who the wizard is?

I've built wizards matching all 4 of those descriptions.

Add in clerics, who are equally dangerous, and it gets sillier.

Add in druids, and the dog by the guy with normal clothes could be your worst nightmare.

mostlyharmful
2010-01-17, 04:51 AM
Could be the one in heavy armor casting still spells!

No wait! I've solved it! It's the invisible flying one that wasn't listed because there's no damn way to detect him..... :smalltongue:

Sliver
2010-01-17, 04:53 AM
No wait! I've solved it! It's the invisible flying one that wasn't listed because there's no damn way to detect him..... :smalltongue:

No! It's the hummingbird that flies around the guy in the mithril chain! It's a wizard polymorphed into a hummingbird with a hummingbird familiar polymorphed into a human!

mostlyharmful
2010-01-17, 04:54 AM
No! It's the hummingbird that flies around the guy in the mithril chain! It's a wizard polymorphed into a hummingbird with a hummingbird familiar polymorphed into a human!

maybe... or maybe that's what he WANTS you to think!:smallfurious:

Coidzor
2010-01-17, 04:55 AM
No wait! I've solved it! It's the invisible flying one that wasn't listed because there's no damn way to detect him..... :smalltongue:

No! It's the solar at the back of a horde of solars that suddenly appeared behind you while you were looking for him amongst the illusions!

Sliver
2010-01-17, 05:00 AM
maybe... or maybe that's what he COMMANDS you to think!:smallfurious:

Fixed it for ya :smalltongue:

Superglucose
2010-01-17, 05:09 AM
No! It's the solar at the back of a horde of solars that suddenly appeared behind you while you were looking for him amongst the illusions!
Actually it's the one that's sitting three planes over staring into his crystal ball laughing his head off as you all spend your time debating which between the four visible characters, the humming bird, the invisible one, and the infinite solars is actually the Wizard.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-17, 05:12 AM
Actually it's the one that's sitting three planes over staring into his crystal ball laughing his head off as you all spend your time debating which between the four visible characters, the humming bird, the invisible one, and the infinite solars is actually the Wizard.

Only to find out they're all simulacrums of the wizard, except the hummingbird, who is his astral projection, while he's sitting safely back at the homefront.

Sliver
2010-01-17, 05:17 AM
Now if there was a game where all characters are actually a projection of part of the wizard's personality with his will and consciousness projected through the hummingbird (or any familiar).. I'd play that..

Although maybe we are all playing that game, just don't know it..

Yukitsu
2010-01-17, 12:29 PM
Arcane mastery (Take 10)
Dispel CL bonus +10
Dispel Cord (+2)
Master Specialist Abjurer (+4)
Spellcaster's Bane: Comp Mage (+2)
Planar touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment - Inquisition Domain) (+4)

That's a dispel check of 32, which will dispel CL 21.

Huh. Thought that some of those bonuses were the same type.

Roderick_BR
2010-01-17, 01:34 PM
As a DM, the challenge is easy: 90% of what the character is relying on is badly written overpowered splatbook cheese that is of course going to unbalance him. Persistent Spell, heart spells, Vigor for non-psionics, etc. Take away such unbalanced options and voila, problem solved.

If your DM let's such things into their campaign that's perfectly fine for them, but I wouldn't go boasting about the prowess of such a character to the world at large, if you know what i mean...
As was said several times, you can still be awfully broke with only core. You don't even need PHB2 for celerity + timestop cheese. So just banning splats may help a bit, but doesn't fix it.


I'm the kind of DM that allows that kind of things in my campaign.

And then the players get to deal with my pimped out monsters throwing high CL dispell effects, high mobility, saves, SR, and a few "out of jail" tricks just in case, plus multiple attacks per turn(or area damage that just goes over all the mirror and miss stuff) to overcome high defenses.

Granted, for an unexperienced DM, or one who doesn't like to pimp out the monsters, said Incantrix should be hit by the nerfhammer.
Unfortunatelly, it makes the game turn into a Magic the Gathering game, with casters finding new ways to make more and more powerful and faster combos, in an increasing arms race.

And the poor non-casters get screwed up over and over in the cross fire.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-17, 01:49 PM
As was said several times, you can still be awfully broke with only core. You don't even need PHB2 for celerity + timestop cheese. So just banning splats may help a bit, but doesn't fix it.


Banning Splats can be tricky. Melees get a good amount of much needed options from them. Will you tell one player he can use books ABCDE and F, and restrict another to only book A?



Unfortunatelly, it makes the game turn into a Magic the Gathering game, with casters finding new ways to make more and more powerful and faster combos, in an increasing arms race.

And the poor non-casters get screwed up over and over in the cross fire.

Pfft. D&D will never be like MtG, as it will always lack the MOST important creature (and indeed D&D shall never be more than a fourth rate game for excluding said magnificent and noble beast). :wink: