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Zen Master
2010-01-13, 05:21 AM
I usually consider myself rather an experienced GM. However, 4e kinda messes with me. The tools I expect aren't there - and the tools that are there, don't seem to provide me with what I need.

For one thing: Minions. I look at them, and I feel I understand their purpose: They are random grunts for the slaughter. But I can't seem to find a way to explain them to my players - in game, with verisimilitude and all that. Here are 5 pretty identical guys - they have swords, or whatever. Of these, 4 will drop after any damage, while the last guy, whose only distinguishing mark are his sergeants badges, will need to take ... say 40 points of damage.

Another thing I find troubling are the powers available to enemies. Now, a PC has god only knows how many options to draw from. The typical entry in the Monster Manual has 3-5 or so. Make a swarm of basic enemies like goblins - they basically have one trick to pull. And that's that.

Dragging something out of the Monster Manual is easy - but if you want some diversity, apparantly you need either templates or class levels. Which kinda denies me the easy bit.

What am I doing wrong? Does anyone have some 3-step tips or the like?

Irony of life: I play 4e only because one player went out and bought what he thought was the right books. Curse you, Rasmus =D

potatocubed
2010-01-13, 05:30 AM
I get around the limited powers available to enemies by brewing up my own creatures. I recommend getting the hang of homebrewing in 4e, since with practice you can knock up unique monsters in ~10 minutes or so, way faster than 3.x. This is, to me, the major advantage of the system from a GM's point of view.

As for minions... I dunno. I tend to run D&D like an action movie most of the time, so my players have the 'faceless mooks' trope in their minds when I drop half a dozen goblins on the table. I think the trouble with your example is that the chief is distinguished only by his sergeant's stripes. Try thinking of it in terms of drama rather than rank: the mooks and their sergeant are all minions, but the scar-faced captain with a saw-toothed glaive and half a dozen combat tricks? He's a proper bad guy.

This approach still has problems, but it might help to explain things. Alternatively, ditch the minions completely and just throw normal baddies at the characters. You won't be missing much.

Zen Master
2010-01-13, 05:44 AM
I get around the limited powers available to enemies by brewing up my own creatures. I recommend getting the hang of homebrewing in 4e, since with practice you can knock up unique monsters in ~10 minutes or so, way faster than 3.x. This is, to me, the major advantage of the system from a GM's point of view.

As for minions... I dunno. I tend to run D&D like an action movie most of the time, so my players have the 'faceless mooks' trope in their minds when I drop half a dozen goblins on the table. I think the trouble with your example is that the chief is distinguished only by his sergeant's stripes. Try thinking of it in terms of drama rather than rank: the mooks and their sergeant are all minions, but the scar-faced captain with a saw-toothed glaive and half a dozen combat tricks? He's a proper bad guy.

This approach still has problems, but it might help to explain things. Alternatively, ditch the minions completely and just throw normal baddies at the characters. You won't be missing much.

Well - the mooks and sergeant were meant as an example only. But even then, lets try something different.

The party walks calmly down a night time alley. From the shadows around them emerge ten ruffians wielding daggers, maces and shortswords. They strike aggressive poses, and attack. In game terms, these are minions, and the encounter is easily winnable for the players.

The party walks calmly down a night time alley. From the shadows around them emerge ten ruffians wielding daggers, maces and shortswords. They strike aggressive poses, and attack. In this case, the enemies are skirmishers and brutes, each with real hitpoints. This is a major combat encounter, and the players had better start cranking up their dailies, or it will end badly for them.

How are the players going to tell the two apart?

Because, I'm aware I could let the level of detail communicate the difference - mooks are nameless faceless fodder, while more dangerous enemies will be presented as wearing quality armor, having well maintained weapons and scars to match their experience. But then I feel arbitrarily make mook encounters boring and predictable.

Of course - I could just not use minions at all.

Leolo
2010-01-13, 05:51 AM
Here are 5 pretty identical guys - they have swords, or whatever. Of these, 4 will drop after any damage, while the last guy, whose only distinguishing mark are his sergeants badges, will need to take ... say 40 points of damage.

4E is a little narrative. The damage that you inflict to some opponent is not the representation of an actual wound. Precisely it is not as if one third of your hitpoints lost by an attack mean one third of you is lost.

It is a representation of how long you can hold on in a fight.

How long could opponents hold in a fight if this would be a story? The answer is: It depends. Some will die after one good attack, others will be very hard to kill.

This does not mean the one you have killed fast where fragile in general. They just had bad luck, or more precisely: They do not have had an important role in this situation.

potatocubed
2010-01-13, 06:27 AM
Hmm. Well, one thing I would say is that an encounter made up of nothing other than minions is probably a bad idea. Anyway, that aside:

I have read on the internet that 4e operates on the assumption that the GM points out minions to the players when the encounter starts. This would solve the 'is this dangerous?' problem at the expense of some immersion.

Personally, I let the characters discover how dangerous their enemies are by getting stuck in. Typically the first round or two consists of identifying the minions in any given encounter, clearing them out with AoE powers like a dragonborn's breath weapon, then concentrating on the serious enemies.

I think that so long as you are consistent, your players will adapt their tactics accordingly - if their first few attacks hew down minions all over the place, they'll keep hold of their dailies and try to ride out the encounter. If they 'test' the enemies and find out that they're up against serious opposition, you can expect the dailies to come out. It's something that you kind of learn as you play (or run) the game.

Anonymouswizard
2010-01-13, 07:01 AM
I can see 4e as being easy to change monsters, I have never played before but in my first adventure I am planning to set them up against a lv3 deathlock wight, who has magic missile instead of grave bolt in order to represent that he is a human mage they encountered at the begining. Most minions are those without good armour, and damaged weapons, as the more powerful goblins take all the shinny stuff for themselves. But then again, here is a solo I made for the game:
{table]Possessed goblin, goblin warrior savage berserker frost adept; Elite brute; Small natural humanoid; XP 500
Initiative +5 Senses perseption+5, low-light vision; HP 104 Bloodied 52; AC 19 Fortitude 19 Reflex 15 Will 12; Action points 2; Saving throws +5; Speed 6
Spear (basic; standard; at will) Weapon
+6vs.AC; 1d8+2 damage
Jaelin (standard; at will) Weapon
Ranged 10/20; +6vs.AC; 1d6+2 damage
Mobile ranged attack (standard, at will)
The goblin warrior can move up to half it’s speed; at any point during that movement, it makes one ranged attack without provoking an opportunity attack.
Goblin tactics (immediate reaction,when missed by a melee attack; at will)
The goblin shifts 1 square
Murderous frenzy
The possessed goblin gains 1 action point the first time it reduces a foe to 0 hit points in an encounter
Savage Rebuke (Immediate reaction, when hit by a melee attack, at will)
The possessed goblin makes a basic melee attack
Body of ice
Any creature that hits the possessed goblin with a melee attack is slowed until the end of that creatures next turn.
Ice master
The possessed goblin can convert anyattack power it has to cold. Change a powers energy keyword to cold, or add cold energy to an attack power that doesn’t normally deal energy damage.
Alignment evil; Languages common, goblin; Skills Stealth+10, Thievery+10; Str 14(+2); Dex 17(+3); Wis 12(+1); Con 13(+1); Int 8(-1); Cha 8(-1)
Equipment Leather armour, shield, spear, 5 javelins in sheaf[/table]

Shazbot79
2010-01-13, 07:04 AM
I have read on the internet that 4e operates on the assumption that the GM points out minions to the players when the encounter starts. This would solve the 'is this dangerous?' problem at the expense of some immersion.


Yeah...the game assumes that...but I'm not about to tell my players if they are minions or not..let them blow one of their daily powers on them...see if I care.

Also...an encounter with all minions isn't necessarily bed...if you start out with a dozen of them...and more join the fray at the top of each round...and they're immediately followed by a dragon...and then another dragon.

Sir Homeslice
2010-01-13, 07:15 AM
For one thing: Minions. I look at them, and I feel I understand their purpose: They are random grunts for the slaughter. But I can't seem to find a way to explain them to my players - in game, with verisimilitude and all that. Here are 5 pretty identical guys - they have swords, or whatever. Of these, 4 will drop after any damage, while the last guy, whose only distinguishing mark are his sergeants badges, will need to take ... say 40 points of damage.
Minions are the goons that didn't make the cut, the rabble, the scum, and the people that just quite frankly don't matter. In a story perspective, they're the redshirts, and in a world where Authority Equals Asskicking, the remaining guy with the legitimately earned war decorations? He earned it by having brass balls.

Also, in combat, minions exist to make it difficult for the party in whatever way they can, either through being a wave of bodies that take one for the team, or they do something fun when they die like Rupture Demons, or Angels of Light.


Another thing I find troubling are the powers available to enemies. Now, a PC has god only knows how many options to draw from. The typical entry in the Monster Manual has 3-5 or so. Make a swarm of basic enemies like goblins - they basically have one trick to pull. And that's that.

Dragging something out of the Monster Manual is easy - but if you want some diversity, apparantly you need either templates or class levels. Which kinda denies me the easy bit.

What am I doing wrong? Does anyone have some 3-step tips or the like?

Irony of life: I play 4e only because one player went out and bought what he thought was the right books. Curse you, Rasmus =D

I've got nothing. Enjoy your game(s).

Sinon
2010-01-13, 08:14 AM
Consider every action movie ever: three quarters of the bad guys are just there to suck up bullets and there’re a couple that take some effort.

The characters don’t know they're minions and that it only took one hp of damage: they knew the guy who was between them and the real guy was a wuss who didn't keep his head.

In earlier editions, if you wanted to surround your BBEG with low-level minions, they were low hit die, which meant:
1) They never really posed a threat to your PCs because their to-hit was too low.
2) The PCs could automatically hit them because their AC was so low.
3) They probably died on very few hits because PCs’ damage was high relative to their hp.

What 4e minions does is preserve the “just fodder” notion of minions (they die on one hit) while still making them a legitimate opponent because their AC and to-hit are comparable to the PCs’.

What I would do is design your encounters without minions at first, and then gradually add them to balance things. Situations too hard for the PCs? Make one of those solders a minion next time. Things too easy, add a couple minions next time.

That’s what I did and I like the mechanic a lot now.

Anonymouswizard
2010-01-13, 08:42 AM
What I would do is design your encounters without minions at first, and then gradually add them to balance things. Situations too hard for the PCs? Make one of those solders a minion next time. Things too easy, add a couple minions next time.

So do you have a mechanic for making normal monsters minions? I would like that, because now I can have a level 33 minion Orcus if the plot calls for it (call it a greater aspect of orcus, or supreme aspect of orcus, or whatever):smallbiggrin:

Renchard
2010-01-13, 09:06 AM
Another thing I find troubling are the powers available to enemies. Now, a PC has god only knows how many options to draw from. The typical entry in the Monster Manual has 3-5 or so. Make a swarm of basic enemies like goblins - they basically have one trick to pull. And that's that.

That seems a little odd, doesn't the MM1 have like 6 or 7 different statted up goblins?

You never, ever do a 4e combat with just 1 monster...a fight with goblins should usually be something like:

2 goblin ratcatchers
3 goblin crossbowmen
6 goblin thugs (minions)
1 hobgoblin commander

It's a good balance between DM sanity (no 20 SLAs to look up) and player surprise.

Force
2010-01-13, 09:11 AM
I find-- as a newbie DM-- that description is everything. Minions are there to make your characters feel awesome, and it can be cool to watch your character cutting down enemies left and right as your character pulls off heroic moves that just mow down the opposition. Of course, that description comes in handy when you throw in a non-minion opponent; suddenly they're facing off against someone who is as good as they are and it takes a bit more effort.

dsmiles
2010-01-13, 09:26 AM
I don't really care what system I'm using, I don't describe the low-HP mooks any less than I describe the BBEG. The players I game with decide what abilities/spells/powers based on how close they are to resting/recharging anyways, so closer to the end of the day, they'll use their Daily's on mooks just to use them...

valadil
2010-01-13, 09:33 AM
The way I've been explaining minions isn't that they're so wimpy that they die after 1 hp, but that they give up. They're the characters who like running around in a gang, but if actual fighting starts will play dead or run away as soon as they're the least bit threatened.

DabblerWizard
2010-01-13, 10:30 AM
A recurring theme in everyone's posts up to now has to do with something you might call HP dominance. (Yes I did just make that up). In a given encounter, the more HP an NPC has, the more important that NPC becomes.

I think the OP might be having a hard time justifying the inclusion of essentially worthless bags of XP, otherwise known as minions.

Other than their mere presence, their XP value, and their ability to stall later encounters or draw out current ones, minions have no great standard utility.

That doesn't have to be the case. Minions can have names and sub plots and whatever else a DM might want them to have. Some people would suggest that time and effort should never be wasted on such NPCs, because their life expectancy is so incredibly short.

Consider this. A non evil minion might be called a commoner. Especially in heroic tier games, peasants and other socially under-appreciated characters can play interesting, valuable, roleplay worthy roles.

It might be your job to defend a village against an oncoming ogre that's been terrorizing the land. Your players would have a more authentic reaction to the death of a given villager, if they've just spent the last 15 minutes (IRL) talking to them. Why can the greater emotional connection appear? You've helped your player immerse themselves into the story, and so, the story feels more real to them.

Going back to minions, any given NPC can have roleplay or narrative value, if you give them qualities that help them stand out: names, histories, motivations, emotions, etc.

In this way, you increase the overall meaningfulness of your story, and you have a novel effect on your players that spans the barrier between in-game and out of game reactions.

Here's an example. Story time!



I didn't make minions important in this given story, but I did use the roleplay device of flushing out NPCs in a small way, to elicit a unique reaction in my players.

I had them assist a (secretly noble) dragonborn on a quest for glory. They were lead to an old crypt underneath an abandoned church. They started to search through the tombs for a holy avenger, a sacred sword beloved by paladins.

As expected, ghosts within the tombs started attacking the players. Instead of just being a random expected encounter, I took a minute to describe the individual ghosts, noting their different races in life, and stated that they were not only angry, but confused and hurt. I had the ghosts shriek at the players, begging them to stop harassing their resting places.

This scenario caused one of my players to very adamantly protest the further desecration of the crypt. Instead of acting like callous treasure hunters, the players (i.e. their characters) showed themselves to be considerate and empathic. In turn I rewarded them with a few minor magic items.

The New Bruceski
2010-01-13, 10:33 AM
Well - the mooks and sergeant were meant as an example only. But even then, lets try something different.

The party walks calmly down a night time alley. From the shadows around them emerge ten ruffians wielding daggers, maces and shortswords. They strike aggressive poses, and attack. In game terms, these are minions, and the encounter is easily winnable for the players.

The party walks calmly down a night time alley. From the shadows around them emerge ten ruffians wielding daggers, maces and shortswords. They strike aggressive poses, and attack. In this case, the enemies are skirmishers and brutes, each with real hitpoints. This is a major combat encounter, and the players had better start cranking up their dailies, or it will end badly for them.

How are the players going to tell the two apart?

Because, I'm aware I could let the level of detail communicate the difference - mooks are nameless faceless fodder, while more dangerous enemies will be presented as wearing quality armor, having well maintained weapons and scars to match their experience. But then I feel arbitrarily make mook encounters boring and predictable.

Of course - I could just not use minions at all.

If the party treats all enemies as minions, I'd say they tell the difference when the barbarian smugly walks up to one of the foes, brings his axe down, and the thief ducks into the swing, getting nicked by the blade but mostly a weak hit by the haft.

Or in out of game terms, when a player makes an attack and the "minion" doesn't fall over.

Bagelz
2010-01-13, 10:41 AM
1) in an old spy movie, how do you tell the uniformed henchmen #1-#20 from big bad guy's body guard's Frank, Herb, and "Crusher". the body guard's cloths don't fit as nicely, they tend to bumble around and don't particularly look like they are paying attention. The minions all look alike and don't look skillful or focused, the bodyguards look well trained and intensly focused.

3) let the players figure it out. If they use a low powered AOE (burst or blast spell that say only does 1d6 dmg to each target) and they fall, then they are minions. if they don't, then they are not minions. generally minions will just hit. A soldier or expecially a lurker might include ongoing damage, push/pull/slides, or other effects. If your players have the luxury of seeing your die rolls, the minions will have a slightly harder time hitting also. (if they hit on a dice roll of 4 its probably not a minion).

potatocubed
2010-01-13, 10:58 AM
Other than their mere presence, their XP value, and their ability to stall later encounters or draw out current ones, minions have no great standard utility.

You can give minions extra utility by brewing your own. I've used minions who cannot be killed until their controller is killed, minions who heal allies when they die, minions whose basic attack delivers a variety of status effects, minions who repeatedly come back from the dead (survival horror!), minions who can be consumed and thrown about the battlefield as living weapons, and so on. The basic MM minions are just cannon fodder, but by attaching special effects to them you can make them an integral tactical part of the encounter.

Or you can do what you suggest, and add story elements to the minions instead of (or as well as) tactical elements. Either way, you're turning them into something other than a wall o' goblins.

DabblerWizard
2010-01-13, 11:27 AM
You can give minions extra utility by brewing your own. I've used minions who cannot be killed until their controller is killed, minions who heal allies when they die, minions whose basic attack delivers a variety of status effects, minions who repeatedly come back from the dead (survival horror!), minions who can be consumed and thrown about the battlefield as living weapons, and so on. The basic MM minions are just cannon fodder, but by attaching special effects to them you can make them an integral tactical part of the encounter.

Or you can do what you suggest, and add story elements to the minions instead of (or as well as) tactical elements. Either way, you're turning them into something other than a wall o' goblins.

^^ I approve of this suggestion. :smallbiggrin:

Sipex
2010-01-13, 12:06 PM
Ohhh, that's smart. I may have to steal that thought.

I use minions to make battles seem more overwhelming than usual without being easy. Minions go down fast, yes, but they'll still be harder to hit (and hit harder!) than a normal monster of a lower level.

Any other questions? You mentioned minions were just one example.

FoE
2010-01-13, 12:14 PM
1) Some minions are justifiable by their nature. Look at the Level 1 Skeleton Minion in the MM; that thing is one good whack from falling apart. Or the giant rat minion; those things aren't even dire rats, so why should they take more than a hit to kill? There are also minions in MM2 whose entire reason for existence is to die: when they do, they empower other allies.

2) Minions can represent enemies that are no longer a suitable challenge for the PCs. So an ogre that was dangerous to Level 8 and under PCs is no longer a challenge once you break into the Paragon tier, at which point they become mooks.

3) Minions are a good DM tool. Remember that you don't need to do any book-keeping for minions, since they die in one hit, and they don't roll for damage. Also, if you have a wizard in the group, he will feel pretty cool mowing down groups of minions.

4) Used maliciously, minions can be pretty dangerous. Look at this way: 4 minions basically equate to one creature. Except now it's a creature with four attacks. On its own, that may not sound so great, but when the PCs are already dealing with some tough enemies? Nice.

5) Minions are the only real way you're going to be able to "swarm" your PCs with a lot of enemies, like ye olde classic zombie horde. They're good for cinematic scenes.

The New Bruceski
2010-01-14, 01:30 AM
Another minion idea: I'm adapting Ravenloft to 4e (the adventure, not the setting) and am including some zombie minions who reanimate on a 4+. I figure it'll have the expected effect the first time a melee-guy wades in and knocks them all down, only to find some of them grabbing his legs and biting the next round. Since a horror game needs to keep the players off-balance, it seems a nice way of changing the rules without outright breaking them, and with minions it's more atmospheric than deadly, as it could be if a nasty foe got back up.

If you want to use that specific example, I've decided that radiant damage or a minor action to crush the skull prevents reanimation. I'd include fire too, but every game I've played has had a pyro mage, and while I don't want to punish that possibility, it seems like that would make it too likely that no zombies got back up. Atmosphere again.

Zen Master
2010-01-14, 03:32 AM
Hm - lots of very good input, thanks :)

A few clarifications. I know what minions are, and how to use them. I have made encounters with only minions - but only a few, and only for specific reasons. Like, when the players pissed off a necromancer - then fled the fight and tried to hide near a wayside shrine dedicated to that same necromancers god. Minions spawned continuously until they got the point =)

No, my real issue is avoiding unfortunate game effects. With an unknown percentage of the enemies in a given encounter made up of minions, the players cannot gauge how hard the encounter is. Not that they necessarily should, but still.


The players might come to rely on all encounters being 'beatable' - which not all encounters are.
They might decide to burn a daily power on a guy who would die from a strong sidewind.
Or I could make it obvious via description which enemies are minions - making them fairly pointless and hurting immersion.

TheOOB
2010-01-14, 04:35 AM
I personally think if you tell the players who is a minion and who is not, it ruins any danger they might posses. I also belive that if you don't have some other monster or environmental feature that takes advantage of a large number of bodies on the field, minions are pointless.

As for the justification, the trick is don't think of hit points as health, think of them as...heroic luck. Just about anything will die if you stab them in the heart, minions just tend to receive mortal blows quicker. A 10 damage attack to a minion is something fatal, a beheading or a heart blow. A 10 damage attack to someone with 12 hp is a very dangerous but non lethal blow, a ragged slash across the belly perhaps. A 10 damage attack against someone with 200 hp is a small knick, barely a cut. It isn't because they are tougher that they survived(though that is part of it), it's because they turned at just the right moment, managed to catch part of the sword with their shield, or maybe the blow just got caught in the chain mesh of their armor.

As for setting up encounters:

Not all encounters need to be beatable, and not all need to be the same. Easy fights are essential, necessary to make the characters feel like heroes. Hard fight are also necessary, in fact if you are not at least risking killing a character once every level or so, the game will start to feel stale.

That said, absolutely unwinnable should be pretty clearly labeled as such. Perhaps a powerful NPC who the players have seen in battle gets killed, giving the players time to run, or maybe you just drop a hint "Maybe this guy is too much for you". A characters insight score isn't there just to look pretty, it should be able to tell a character(especially a wise character who is trained in the skill), if an encounter will be easy, difficult, extremely difficult, or unwinnable.

Leolo
2010-01-14, 04:51 AM
I do not think that minions are pointless. For example 4 lvl 1 goblin minions could easily bring a lvl 1 character to the bloodied state in a single round or even below 0. Maybe faster than a single goblin blackblade lurker could.

They are actually dangerous, but you can get rid of them.

Kurald Galain
2010-01-14, 05:49 AM
For one thing: Minions. I look at them, and I feel I understand their purpose: They are random grunts for the slaughter. But I can't seem to find a way to explain them to my players - in game, with verisimilitude and all that.
Verisimilitude is not high on 4E's list of priorities. If minions bother you, then the game plays fine without them. Of course, four minion and one non-minion should not be five identical guys: you can use four goblin minions and an ogre, for instance. You can also make them run away at the first hit, rather than dropping.


Now, a PC has god only knows how many options to draw from. The typical entry in the Monster Manual has 3-5 or so. Make a swarm of basic enemies like goblins - they basically have one trick to pull. And that's that.
That's kind of the point. The life expectancy for any enemy is two to five rounds, and there's only so much they can do during that time. You can solve this by using different monsters. And you can always take, say, a kuo-toa and refluff it to be a goblin priest, or something like that.

What you can also do is take a suitable daily or encounter power from the PHB, and give it to one of your monsters; or take an item with a useful power and give that to the monsters (before the PCs kill him and take it as loot, that is).

Zen Master
2010-01-14, 07:30 AM
Verisimilitude is not high on 4E's list of priorities. If minions bother you, then the game plays fine without them. Of course, four minion and one non-minion should not be five identical guys: you can use four goblin minions and an ogre, for instance. You can also make them run away at the first hit, rather than dropping.

Well - it's an example. I wouldn't, in actual play, pitch my pc's against 5 identical enemies. But yes - running away is good. I also don't portray minions as dying from one hit, but rather being incapacitated.


That's kind of the point. The life expectancy for any enemy is two to five rounds, and there's only so much they can do during that time. You can solve this by using different monsters. And you can always take, say, a kuo-toa and refluff it to be a goblin priest, or something like that.

What you can also do is take a suitable daily or encounter power from the PHB, and give it to one of your monsters; or take an item with a useful power and give that to the monsters (before the PCs kill him and take it as loot, that is).

Problem is, when each enemy - minion or otherwise - has only a few options open to it, a campaign focused on defeating a goblin tribe (for instance) gets repetitive real fast.

Not that a goblin tribe needs to be only goblins - the ogre mentioned is an example - but still. I like a lot more options open to me than what I find in the manual.

Naturally, I have considered just buffing a monster now and again with a daily power or a few class levels - but being new to 4e, I fear overdoing it :)

Theodoric
2010-01-14, 07:51 AM
Naturally, I have considered just buffing a monster now and again with a daily power or a few class levels - but being new to 4e, I fear overdoing it :)
That's what templates are for, in the DMG. They even have the 4E equivalent to class levels. :smallwink:

FoE
2010-01-14, 12:10 PM
Problem is, when each enemy - minion or otherwise - has only a few options open to it, a campaign focused on defeating a goblin tribe (for instance) gets repetitive real fast.

I don't understand your point. If your campaign hinges on a certain kind of monster but you're tired of using the same old creatures over and over again, then create new ones, use templates, use moar traps, utilize different types of terrain, etc.

Artanis
2010-01-14, 12:28 PM
wise - has only a few options open to it, a campaign focused on defeating a goblin tribe (for instance) gets repetitive real fast.

Not that a goblin tribe needs to be only goblins - the ogre mentioned is an example - but still. I like a lot more options open to me than what I find in the manual.

If you want them to have more options, there's vast swathes of the DMG that describe how to give them more options while keeping things balanced.

FoE
2010-01-14, 12:42 PM
The DMG2 has even more templates, plus those "group affiliation" abilities. Those are immensely useful if you're pitting the PCs against a particular group of some kind, like the Red Hand.

Yakk
2010-01-14, 12:49 PM
Part of your job as DM is to create a semblance of progress.

At level 1, the players might fight a mixture of Kobolds.

Dragonshields are armored in studded leather, and have a large shiny coloured shield, and have a well maintained sword.

Kobold minions have tatters of armor, and use daggers.

...

You can view minions as being monsters more than 5 levels 'under' the party. These monsters would basically always miss on attacks, and would always be hit, but fighting them using standard mechanics doesn't work well. Heck, let's call it 8 levels under their visible level (which is how much XP they are worth).

When fighting minions (beings that weak), players "take a -8 to hit, and in exchange, kill in one shot", and minions "get a +8 to hit, and in exchange deal min damage".

Using this semi-simulationist view of minions, determining 'how do you deal with minions' is similar to 'how do you deal with monsters that are 10 levels under the party'.

The Kobold dragonshield is a seriously elite Kobold; at level 3, it is 9 levels above the level of the level 2 Kobold minions. How would you describe a level 10 knight compared to a level 1 mercenary, when PCs are level 8 or so?

That is the gap between a level 2 minion and a level 3 normal monster.

Would it be fair for a level 8 party to feel threatened by a level 1 mercenary, or should level 8 characters be able to size up a level 1 mercenary and say "that guy isn't nearly as skilled as I am"?

...

Later, you can extend this illusion. Once past low levels in the MM, minion versions of a given monster tend to be higher level than the normal monsters of that type.

So at level 3, a band of 5 level 3 orcs is a standard encounter. At level 7, that same band of 5 orcs would be a band of 5 level 7 minions (yes, this is only +4 levels not +8 -- deal), and would only be a challenge to 1 member of the party fighting alone.

So at low levels, you can describe minios vs non-minions as the difference in training and equipment; at higher levels, the minions can be qualitatively different kinds of creature. If players fought demon-worshipping gnolls in late-heroic, using gnolls as minions (and only minions) in early-paragon gives the players a feeling "what was once a challenge to me, is now trivial". Any gnoll that is above a minion should be extraordinary by early-paragon.

The MM, MM2 and the various suppliments might provide you with monsters of a given kind that vary over a huge level range. It is up to you to determine if you want to use them. I'd advise deciding what "power level niche" a given type of monster should occupy, and stick to it. If you need monsters for the next niche up, make it very clear they are different. Use monsters from previous "power level niche"s to provide minions for this level of power.

ashmanonar
2010-01-14, 01:40 PM
Part of your job as DM is to create a semblance of progress.

At level 1, the players might fight a mixture of Kobolds.

Dragonshields are armored in studded leather, and have a large shiny coloured shield, and have a well maintained sword.

Kobold minions have tatters of armor, and use daggers.

...

You can view minions as being monsters more than 5 levels 'under' the party. These monsters would basically always miss on attacks, and would always be hit, but fighting them using standard mechanics doesn't work well. Heck, let's call it 8 levels under their visible level (which is how much XP they are worth).

When fighting minions (beings that weak), players "take a -8 to hit, and in exchange, kill in one shot", and minions "get a +8 to hit, and in exchange deal min damage".

Using this semi-simulationist view of minions, determining 'how do you deal with minions' is similar to 'how do you deal with monsters that are 10 levels under the party'.

The Kobold dragonshield is a seriously elite Kobold; at level 3, it is 9 levels above the level of the level 2 Kobold minions. How would you describe a level 10 knight compared to a level 1 mercenary, when PCs are level 8 or so?

That is the gap between a level 2 minion and a level 3 normal monster.

Would it be fair for a level 8 party to feel threatened by a level 1 mercenary, or should level 8 characters be able to size up a level 1 mercenary and say "that guy isn't nearly as skilled as I am"?

...

Later, you can extend this illusion. Once past low levels in the MM, minion versions of a given monster tend to be higher level than the normal monsters of that type.

So at level 3, a band of 5 level 3 orcs is a standard encounter. At level 7, that same band of 5 orcs would be a band of 5 level 7 minions (yes, this is only +4 levels not +8 -- deal), and would only be a challenge to 1 member of the party fighting alone.

So at low levels, you can describe minios vs non-minions as the difference in training and equipment; at higher levels, the minions can be qualitatively different kinds of creature. If players fought demon-worshipping gnolls in late-heroic, using gnolls as minions (and only minions) in early-paragon gives the players a feeling "what was once a challenge to me, is now trivial". Any gnoll that is above a minion should be extraordinary by early-paragon.

The MM, MM2 and the various suppliments might provide you with monsters of a given kind that vary over a huge level range. It is up to you to determine if you want to use them. I'd advise deciding what "power level niche" a given type of monster should occupy, and stick to it. If you need monsters for the next niche up, make it very clear they are different. Use monsters from previous "power level niche"s to provide minions for this level of power.

I think you're seriously overconfusing the role and concept of minions. They're just one-hit-wonders. They take up space on the battlefield, have average-high defenses and attack bonus to make up for failings of HP, and are there only to fall before the might of your PC's. (using 1hp as a construct for being able to be taken out in one hit, because if someone rolled too low on a guy with 8 hp, he'd be more than a minion but less than a standard.

This level-equivalence you're positing makes it more complicated than they're worth.

Remember: you can fluff stuff all you want, and not have to change the mechanics. That's the beauty of 4e: it is almost completely refluffable, and no worse for wear. The stats/levels/attacks etc. are just game constructs to ensure the game retains a balanced feel, and to pose challenge to your infinitely fluffable PC's.

Yakk
2010-01-14, 03:48 PM
I think you're seriously overconfusing the role and concept of minions. They're just one-hit-wonders. They take up space on the battlefield, have average-high defenses and attack bonus to make up for failings of HP, and are there only to fall before the might of your PC's. (using 1hp as a construct for being able to be taken out in one hit, because if someone rolled too low on a guy with 8 hp, he'd be more than a minion but less than a standard.
You are describing how minions mechanically work. That's it.

This level-equivalence you're positing makes it more complicated than they're worth.
I'm doing verisimilitude patching.

Why is that that creature 1 drops in 1 hit, and creature 2 takes 8 hits to take it out?

There are lots of ways to describe it. I am proposing one, for someone who has a problem with "that is just the way it is".

One advantage to this interpretation (that minions are a mechanical abstraction for what happens when you fight creatures that are far weaker than you) is that it helps in world and encounter building. It can be used to create the feeling of progression on more than a treadmill (same creatures, higher attack bonus).

Remember: you can fluff stuff all you want, and not have to change the mechanics. That's the beauty of 4e: it is almost completely refluffable, and no worse for wear. The stats/levels/attacks etc. are just game constructs to ensure the game retains a balanced feel, and to pose challenge to your infinitely fluffable PC's.
The 4e mechanics provide a way for the GM to run the world, but storytelling remains part of the GM's job.

If you take the presumption of "minions are what happens when you fight creatures that are much weaker than you", you can use that presumption to ease crafting a coherent storyline.

Instead of having to say "these are minions", you say "these are ogres". The players remember fighting multiple ogres 8 levels ago, and figure "unless there is something special about them, they will be pushovers by now". And their presumption plays out.

The alternatives include "the players have no idea how tough something is", or "you tell the player that the creature is a minion", both of which make (to me) a crappier story.

I like the idea of a DM providing an emulation of a world to the players (not a simulation). In emulating a world, you let the players experience a world that makes sense, without having to roll to-hit for orcs attacking trees when they are chopping them down.