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HorakhDragon
2010-01-13, 08:06 AM
I've been recruited for a group playing a pathfinder game with one of the most unbalanced teams I've ever seen and a score of house rules, (which is great, for me!) Based on what the Playground knows, how should I go about playing a paladin? My character has by far the highest strength in the group, with high charaisma.
How should I exploit this?

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-13, 08:07 AM
Chant Pazuzu three times?

kamikasei
2010-01-13, 08:08 AM
You'll need to describe the house rules in order to get a useful answer.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-13, 08:09 AM
Could you give actual numbers?
We don't know what you mean by "high". Is that 20 or a 18?

Mongoose87
2010-01-13, 08:31 AM
Take Power Attack, use Smite Evil on the biggest bads?

Gnaeus
2010-01-13, 08:38 AM
Hit second level, for Cha to saves, then multiclass sorcerer?

Paul H
2010-01-13, 10:01 AM
Hi

Amending last post - take ONE level of Sorceror, Four levels Paladin, then go straight Dragon Disciple?

+4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, Wings, Claws, Bite (c/w flames/acid, etc), Energy Resistance, couple free feats, Poly into Dragon, (Form of the Dragon I & II), Breath Wpn, etc, etc.

Unlike 3.5 DMG, Dragon Disciple now gains 7/10 caster levels..... :smallcool:

Cheers
Paul H
PS Take Gold Dragon for Draconic background

Cedrass
2010-01-13, 11:18 AM
Hi

Amending last post - take ONE level of Sorceror, Four levels Paladin, then go straight Dragon Disciple?

+4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, Wings, Claws, Bite (c/w flames/acid, etc), Energy Resistance, couple free feats, Poly into Dragon, (Form of the Dragon I & II), Breath Wpn, etc, etc.

Unlike 3.5 DMG, Dragon Disciple now gains 7/10 caster levels..... :smallcool:

Cheers
Paul H
PS Take Gold Dragon for Draconic background

Or actually don't. Pathfinder's Paladin is awesome. A straight Paladin 20 build is awesome. Just take some badass feats, and you're good to go.

Gnaeus
2010-01-13, 01:57 PM
> Paul H

That is indeed a good route to go. But by no means the only route. Paladin 2, Sorc 18 has a lot going for it as well.

> Cedrass

While Paladin is the only Melee class that PF truly loves, they get nothing that compares with the power of a true caster. Holy Champion is indeed nice, until you compare it with 9th level spells.

Rixx
2010-01-13, 02:09 PM
I always thought using Paladin as a multiclass dip was really against flavor for Paladins. It's supposed to be a lifelong order thing, isn't it?

If flavor matters, I mean...

Starbuck_II
2010-01-13, 02:40 PM
I always thought using Paladin as a multiclass dip was really against flavor for Paladins. It's supposed to be a lifelong order thing, isn't it?

If flavor matters, I mean...

Illumians can multiclass in and out (of monks and pallys) freely as a racial feature.

Grommen
2010-01-13, 02:44 PM
News flash! We all know casters are kool. I'm sure if he wanted to play a sorc he would not be asking about Paladins. Just going out on a limb here really, but ya know.

Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Imp trip, disarm, sunder, etc. Those seem to be getting a lot of fun in my game right now. Our Paladin needs very little help. Does not seem to fail a save, the smite evil thing is really nasty. The thing hits for ton's of damage even without the smite.

I am also liking that they can power up their own sword. Makes not having a Holy Avenger not suck nearly as much. That in mind, keep pushing for one, they look kool too.

All in all the Paladin looks really strong....O ya and they get a limited number of spells to cast...Crap that makes them a caster :smallfurious: too.

Gnaeus
2010-01-13, 02:52 PM
News flash! We all know casters are kool. I'm sure if he wanted to play a sorc he would not be asking about Paladins. Just going out on a limb here really, but ya know.


OP is a new poster asking how to exploit paladins in an unbalanced group. How do you exploit paladin best? As a sorcerer gish.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-13, 03:32 PM
While Paladin is the only Melee class that PF truly loves, they get nothing that compares with the power of a true caster. Holy Champion is indeed nice, until you compare it with 9th level spells.
Like a little suger with your porridge, Mr. True Scotsman? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)
I find Pathfinder Paladins indeed to be a fun melee build. Smite Evil actually works!

Gnaeus
2010-01-13, 04:16 PM
True caster. Meaning a full casting class getting high level spells. Not a hybrid, pulling 4th level spells off a limited spell list. Save your "no true scottsman" link for the DMPC threads, where definitions are actually an issue.

You knew perfectly well what I meant. So unless you would like to demonstrate how well the mediocre (as in, improved from terrible) paladin class features compare with 9th level spells, stop playing around by accusing me of logical fallacies which aren't relevant to this discussion and let the OP clarify exactly how much paladin he is looking at taking, or if he is interested in a more thorough discussion of single classed paladins vs. paladin gishes.

Seriously, accusing people of illogical argument and following it up with a shout-out to the efficacy of the Paladin? You should be ashamed.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-13, 04:26 PM
Efficacy, shemcacy. Fun is more important in my opinion. And while, of course, mileage may vary, PF Paladins are a fun, simple to use, melee class.

Gnaeus
2010-01-13, 04:31 PM
Fun is important. Of course, nothing says a Sorcadin can't be fun too.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-13, 04:35 PM
Fun is important. Of course, nothing says a Sorcadin can't be fun too.
Not saying it isn't. Never played it, but I can see the enjoyment to be had.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-01-13, 04:51 PM
Or actually don't. Pathfinder's Paladin is awesome. A straight Paladin 20 build is awesome. Just take some badass feats, and you're good to go.

Really? I was told that Pathfinder only exacerbated the disparity in power between the melee classes and the caster classes.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-13, 04:55 PM
The Paladin only increased in power in Pathfinder. Since now Smite evil last till target dead, etc.

Now, it only moves Pally up 1 tier at most so they are still not as good as Driud/Wizards, but they are better.

But without known houserules we can't be certain of anything.

Rixx
2010-01-13, 04:57 PM
Really? I was told that Pathfinder only exacerbated the disparity in power between the melee classes and the caster classes.

The people who told you that probably never actually played Pathfinder. The disparity in power isn't by any means closed, but it certainly hasn't been widened.

Gnaeus
2010-01-13, 05:04 PM
Agreed. Paladin certainly improves compared to casters. But it doesn't close the gap. I would say that it goes from tier 5 (per JaronK) to a high tier 4. I really don't think it hits the bottom of tier 3. Core casters (for those who don't know) are tier 1 and 2.

Edit: That is a core 3.5 vs. core PF comparison. The paladin is arguably better in 3.5 if all splatbooks are in play, vs. core PF. Battle Blessing and all those swift spells in spell compendium are kind to paladins. But that isn't really a fair comparison.

Akal Saris
2010-01-13, 05:09 PM
I'd second the motion to just go straight paladin.

Gish builds don't really get good until levels 10+ or so and can be tricky to build right, whereas if you're going from 1-20 straight paladin should rock from 1-16. Straight PF also lacks a bunch of the good feats like Practiced Spellcaster and Arcane Strike, or the spells like Wraithstrike and similar swift action buffs, which are what often make gish builds so powerful.

As for the character's feats, it's pretty straightforward. I like PA and Imp/Greater Bull Rush, if you go unconscious a lot get Toughness, and whenever you're blanking on what feat to take, just grab Extra Smiting.

Gnaeus
2010-01-13, 07:01 PM
I'll challenge that Akal. Here is a progression.

Level 1-2 Paladin. Improved Initiative, + any other feat if human. Power attack is good. I will assume Str 16, Cha 14 based on OP. Give the human +2 to charisma, so 16/16.

Level 3, Paladin has +1 BaB, +3 HP +1 Ref. Aura of Courage, Divine Health and Mercy are all OK, but situational buffs.

Sorcadin has +2 Will. He has 2 level 1 spells. I choose:
True Strike (which he can cast in his plate mail)
and a buff. Either Shield or Enlarge Person, depending on preference.

True Strike is good for high AC bosses. Shield or Enlarge person are great buffs to cast (even at 35% failure chance) before going through a door that you know will lead to a fight

With Draconic Bloodline, he gets claws for 6 rounds per day. Thats rubbish for a sorcerer, but pretty good for a sorcadin. 2 attacks at full bab for d4+3 are actually a little better damage than 2handing a longsword for d8+4, or even a greatsword for d10+4. Disarmed, or fighting multiple weak enemies, he is clearly better. Situational? Yes, but no more so than aura of courage.

4 Cantrips. Resistance (which I use all the time), Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Mending. A little utility.

Skill bonuses to Appraise, Bluff, Intimidate, UMD, Know Arcana are useful.

Level 4. Paladin gets second smite. +1 BAB, +1 fort, +1 reflex, +6 hp (total).

Sorcadin gets another cantrip. + 2 Will.

At this level, the Sorcadin actually does lose out a bit. Proper equipment may make up for this, if the Sorcadin has a good wand.

Level 5. Paladin gains 3 more hp and is now +2 bab. 1 spell. The ability to enchant a sword +1

Sorcadin gains energy resistance 5, +1 natural armor so more or less even in gold value to the paladin's sword enchantment. He adds mage armor and another buff or utility spell to his list. More or less a draw.

Level 6 Paladin gains a mercy. +3 hp maybe

Sorcadin has lots of choices to make. Dragon Disciple gives him another +1 AC and good hp progression.

or
Sorcerer 4 gives you 3 great spell options.
False life puts your hit points back to roughly even with the paladin (my least favorite)
Blur gives enemies a miss chance in combat, nice for tanking.
Blindness is a fort save or lose.

False life lasts for 4 hours at this level, Blur and Blindness are both verbal only. That means you are still rocking the plate mail, with a higher total AC than the paladin with your natural armor bonus (unless he is a sword and board, in which case you will be doing more damage.) In any case you get to cast it 4 times per day.

Level 7 gives paladin a third smite evil and a single second level spell.

Dragon disciple gets permanent +2 strength. A free feat (improved init or power attack if you don't already get them, or toughness for +7 HP). A second level spell slot just like the level 6 sorcerer + resist energy spell. His claws become magic.

Sorcerer gets magic claws and resist energy as well. He gets a second choice from his spells above, and a 5th casting per day.

Level 8 our paladin gets +4 vs charm effects aura and 1 extra second level spell.

Dragon Disciple gets a breath weapon and another second level spell.

Sorcerer gets his 1st 3rd level spell.
Displacement lets him keep wearing his plate mail for another level.
or
Haste, or Slow, or Heroism all have good points. Its really difficult to keep comparing at this point, as the sorc has so many good options. He should pick the one best suited to his campaign.

Level 9 Paladin gets another mercy and an extra first level spell.

Dragon Disciple gets another level of sorcerer (Now he has 3rd level spells also), and +2 more strength, and +1 natural armor. Wow.

Sorcerer gets a free feat. He learns 2 new spells, one of which is Fly. His claw damage increases, although this is the first level where he may want to drop his armor and transform as if by magic from a heavily armored meleer into a caster with awesome save bonuses and the ability to use healing wands in downtime.

In conclusion:
Level 3 Sorcerer about as good as paladin.
4 Paladin has a little bit of an edge.
by level 5-6 Sorcerer is an adequate armored gish. Dragon disciple begins looking good.
At about level 9, the Dragon Disciple looks like it has a firm lead to me. The Sorcerer with his 3 third level spells is no longer quite as good a meleer as the paladin, but he is a full tier 2 caster, rocking flight, fort and will save or lose spells, and buffs. He will pull ahead of the Dragon disciple in the mid-late teens, when the DD runs out of class levels and the sorcerer gets 8 and 9th level spells.

Paul H
2010-01-13, 08:11 PM
Hi

You don't get Extra Smiting in PF, and Arcane Strike does exist. (Though works differently).

Dragon Disciple build gets something about every level.

It's not the only build out there, and yes, PF does reward pure classes.

Cheers
Paul H

Paul H
2010-01-13, 08:19 PM
Hi

Just to add to Gnaus' very detailed account, you also gain Form of the Dragon I & II, to turn into draconic form, adding Str, Con, Nat Armour bonuses, etc. Oh- and don't forget Bilndsense!

Cheers
Paul H

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-01-13, 09:15 PM
The Paladin only increased in power in Pathfinder. Since now Smite evil last till target dead, etc.

Now, it only moves Pally up 1 tier at most so they are still not as good as Driud/Wizards, but they are better.

But without known houserules we can't be certain of anything.

Yeah, the friend of mine who told me Pathfinder sucks uses the Fighter as the litmus test for whether a system is good, and the only thing that he's been satisfied with is this (http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/index.php?title=Ultimate_Classes).

Gnaeus
2010-01-13, 09:24 PM
Hi

Just to add to Gnaus' very detailed account, you also gain Form of the Dragon I & II, to turn into draconic form, adding Str, Con, Nat Armour bonuses, etc. Oh- and don't forget Bilndsense!

Cheers
Paul H

I was just disputing that gish builds are no good until 10+, so I stopped at 9. Pretty clearly, the Disciple and the Sorcerer only get better relative to the paladin from that point out.

Paul H
2010-01-13, 09:30 PM
Hi

Sorry for hogging the thread, but here's what my PFS char will look like at 15th lvl...

20 Pt buy, Sorceror at 1st lvl, assuming Mage Armour & Form Dragon cast:


Form of Dragon II- Lge Gold Dragon

Str 24 Dex 14 Con 20 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 19
AC 26 (-1 Size, +2 Dex, +11 Nat Armour, +4 Mage Armour) [Will increase to AC 30 with Shield spell]
HP 190 (Include Toughness bonus, and increased Con)
Saves F 18 R 9 W 15 (Includes temp stat increases, Paladin bonus)

Attacks:

Claws: (2) +17 Dam D8+9 (+D6 Fire)
Bite: +17 Dam 2D6+12 (+D6 Fire)
Wings: (2) +12 Dam D6+5
Tail Slap: +12 Dam D8+12

Note:
1) Arcane Strike (included) +2 Dam. All attacks magical
2) Smite Evil - Add +4 Attack, +4 Dam, +4 AC (Deflection)

Other Notable Abilities:

Smite Evil 2/Day
Lay on Hands 8/Day (Inc Extra from feat) for 2D6
Aura Courage
Divine Health
Mercy- Sickened
Channel Pos Energy (2D6)
Resist Fire 20
Blindsense 60'
Wings (Even when not in Dragon form)
Spells as 8th Lvl Sorceror, 4th Lvl Paladin

Notable Spells:

1) Shield, True Strike, Burning Hands (5D4+5), Fthr Fall, Mage Armour (bonus)
2) Scorching Ray (2 rays, 4D6+4), Blur, Bull Str, Resist Energy (bonus)
3) Haste, Fireball (8D6+8), Fly (bonus)
4) Gtr Invis

Not optimised, but for fun
Cheers
Paul H

Sharkman1231
2010-01-13, 11:57 PM
I honestly don't think the fighter is that bad. I mean in 3.5 it was definitly shafted, but some of the abilities they gained are really cool in PF. Also I second the DD.

BobVosh
2010-01-14, 12:52 AM
I honestly don't think the fighter is that bad. I mean in 3.5 it was definitly shafted, but some of the abilities they gained are really cool in PF. Also I second the DD.

They still don't get any noticeable powers. All they have is higher numbers than before. Regardless of strength of tier, they are a boring class.

Anyway, if you swing it TWF with the way smite works now is a huge boon. Especially with a large charisma. The issue will be having the required dex for TWF, so I don't know if this is viable or not for you. Also mounted combat is always pleasant if you aren't going underground too much.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-14, 02:19 AM
Sidenote, I was thinking of an archer paladin build in Pathfinder. With the increase in feats in Pathfinder, think it would be doable?

Starbuck_II
2010-01-14, 06:53 AM
Yeah, the friend of mine who told me Pathfinder sucks uses the Fighter as the litmus test for whether a system is good, and the only thing that he's been satisfied with is this (http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/index.php?title=Ultimate_Classes).

There is the issue. Fighter gained clas features (finally) in PF but they aren't great just okay (+3 vs fear, move in heavy armor, etc).

Fighter is the class for feat dipping.
Ultimate Fighter has actual class features: of course he is decent (reason feats aren't awesome is everyone can use them).

He should use Barbarian as Litmus (it was in every game edition...not always core though).

Gnaeus
2010-01-14, 08:50 AM
Sidenote, I was thinking of an archer paladin build in Pathfinder. With the increase in feats in Pathfinder, think it would be doable?

I don't see why not. Smite evil looks like it works on ranged attacks. Divine Bond doesn't specify melee weapon.

10 base feats (arranged in no particular order):
Deadly Aim (ranged Power Attack)
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Pinpoint Targeting
Improved Critical
3 feats from Vital Strike line or Critical Focus line or Shot on the Run

So there are enough feats to do it without resorting to junk like weapon focus.
Still going to be vulnerable to traditional archer problems like Wind Wall, but it shouldn't suck.

Edit: I'd still probably advocate a level of Sorcerer followed by Arcane Archer. But thats just me.

Mongoose87
2010-01-14, 09:40 AM
Sidenote, I was thinking of an archer paladin build in Pathfinder. With the increase in feats in Pathfinder, think it would be doable?

If you could use the "Devoted Tracker" feat, this would be pretty awesome.

Soranar
2010-01-14, 09:55 AM
actually, halflings on medium mounts still make a pretty good build in pathfinder (and some mounts get pounce so even if you don't get all your attacks it will)

since the mount is medium riding becomes normal in dungeons and permits more options (charge with a lance or two than switch weapons), you can always switch to a flying version later

the bonus to DEX and CHA both help if you intend to go TWF + Smite evil as a combo and the bonus to saves makes you that much harder to incapacitate

of course a gnome gets a bonus to CON so it's all up to flavor as to which you prefer

Paul H
2010-01-14, 10:43 AM
Hi

Soranar is right, of course. Especially since a Paladin gets bonuses to his companion as a Druid of his level.

Eg; A Halfling 5th lvl Paladin's Leopard mount would have:

5HD
Str 17 Dex 20 Con 16
Spd 50'
+3 Nat Armour
BAB +3
Base Saves F 4 R 4 W 1
Evasion, Sprint, etc.

Shame you can't transfer the Smite Evil! (Just as well.......) :smalltongue:

Cheers
Paul H