Doctor Who Theory (The Master, Possible Spoiler Warning)

[Drolyt]

I recently re-watched Utopia, and I was thinking, perhaps the Master wasn't evil in the beginning. As Professor Yana he was willing to sacrifice his life to save the Humans, perhaps the only reason he went bad was because of what Rassilon did to him. Perhaps the Doctor was right to think that there was still hope for him.

[kamikasei]

You mean, maybe the external influence imposed on him (the sound of drums) when he was a child that is said to have driven him mad is the reason he's a bad guy, and that if it had never happened or if (as we saw) he's immunized against it by a false identity, he may have been / indeed was an okay bloke?

...Well, yes? If he hadn't been driven mad as a child, he wouldn't necessarily be insane (and evil). That seems a reasonable conclusion based on the new series, but I don't see what's noteworthy about it.

[factotum]

I agree with kamikasei. The fact it was the drums in his head that drove the Master insane is a well-established part of the new series canon.

[Drolyt]

I suppose, but just having drums drive you crazy doesn't necessarily make you evil. It seems like there is still some other influence, but it also seems that in his original form he was good.

[Starscream]

I can't help but wonder, though, why Professor Yana was such a nice guy (before regaining his identity), even though he had heard the drums his whole life as well. They didn't drive him nuts, he would have been fine if he'd never opened that freaking watch.

[Drolyt]

I can't help but wonder, though, why Professor Yana was such a nice guy (before regaining his identity), even though he had heard the drums his whole life as well. They didn't drive him nuts, he would have been fine if he'd never opened that freaking watch.

That's a good point. There was the EU story of Death choosing him as it's champion.

[Closet_Skeleton]

There's a theory I read on TVtropes that suggests that the only reason the Doctor isn't evil is because his companions keep him grounded, so maybe Dr Yana's clean slate just let people be nice to him which made him nice in return until his happy memories got swamped by centuries of unhappy memories.

A timelord childhood probably isn't a positive influence on anyone.

Yana was also biologically fully human due to the chameleon arc, so maybe the sound of the drums only has its full effect on timelords.

[Drolyt]

There's a theory I read on TVtropes that suggests that the only reason the Doctor isn't evil is because his companions keep him grounded, so maybe Dr Yana's clean slate just let people be nice to him which made him nice in return until his happy memories got swamped by centuries of unhappy memories.

A timelord childhood probably isn't a positive influence on anyone.

Yana was also biologically fully human due to the chameleon arc, so maybe the sound of the drums only has its full effect on timelords.
I think you are probably right, it's the Human influence that keeps the Doctor on the side of good. On Gallifrey Time Lords had measures to keep everyone in line, but once you left you almost invariably went bad, except for the Doctor. I suppose it's just the power getting to your head. Yana had friends and people that he cared for, and was willing to die for, so he became a good guy. I think that could work for the Master, but he had so many bad memories to overcome first, in addition to the drumming. Even before his heroic sacrifice though he seems to consider accepting the Doctor's offer until he gets his idea to transmit the signal through all his bodies; perhaps his time as Yana actually influenced him. I don't think he quite became a good guy at the end, but he remembered that once he was friends with the Doctor and chose to save him, even though it took his own life in the process.

[The Big Dice]

Back in the day, the Master was never depicted as being mad in the way the John Simm version of him was. He was more of a "gentleman villain" and was actually conceived as Moriarty to the Doctor's Sherlock Holmes. In The Five Doctors, the First Doctor didn't even recognise him.

I think the drums thing was a new series retcon, which was neatly explained away as the actions of Time Lords during the Time War.

[Drolyt]

Back in the day, the Master was never depicted as being mad in the way the John Simm version of him was. He was more of a "gentleman villain" and was actually conceived as Moriarty to the Doctor's Sherlock Holmes. In The Five Doctors, the First Doctor didn't even recognise him.

I think the drums thing was a new series retcon, which was neatly explained away as the actions of Time Lords during the Time War.

I knew he wasn't as mad, but did he ever show signs he could be redeemed? What were his goals in the original series? In the new one he was kinda omnicidal, was he like that originally, or did he just want power? Or was it all just a game to him?

[comicshorse]

I knew he wasn't as mad, but did he ever show signs he could be redeemed? What were his goals in the original series? In the new one he was kinda omnicidal, was he like that originally, or did he just want power? Or was it all just a game to him?

Pretty much the Master wanted power and to defeat the Doctor ( there were also occasions where he seemed to be doing his villainous plans simply to spread chaos but they were rarer)

[Starscream]

We wasn't the giggling nutball that John Simm played, but I'm not sure I would call him sane. He once destroyed 25% of the universe. That's Dalek levels of madness, right there.

[factotum]

We wasn't the giggling nutball that John Simm played, but I'm not sure I would call him sane. He once destroyed 25% of the universe. That's Dalek levels of madness, right there.

Didn't he do that in order to save the universe, though? Can't remember the actual circumstances. Of course, he did try to get the inhabitants of the universe to make him their ruler before he'd save them, which to my mind is more where his madness shows!

[comicshorse]

I think that's the Logopolis storyline being refered to. As I remember the Master didn't understand what the inhabitants of Logopolis were doing and so when he intereputed their work some of the universe went bye-bye. Meaning he destroyed 25% of the universe by accident.
He did indeed then co-operate with the doctor to save the rest of the universe but only because he was planning to blackmail it ( Though you've got to give the guy points for trying to hold the ENTIRE UNIVERSE to ransom)

[Drolyt]

I think that's the Logopolis storyline being refered to. As I remember the Master didn't understand what the inhabitants of Logopolis were doing and so when he intereputed their work some of the universe went bye-bye. Meaning he destroyed 25% of the universe by accident.
He did indeed then co-operate with the doctor to save the rest of the universe but only because he was planning to blackmail it ( Though you've got to give the guy points for trying to hold the ENTIRE UNIVERSE to ransom)

Is Logopolis good? That's one I heard I should watch from the old series, which Doctor was it?

[comicshorse]

I must admit I only watched one episode of it so I can't really comment.
It was the fourth Doctor though that I remember.
Personally for classic Who I'd recommend " The Green Death" ( for John Pertwee) "Pyramids of Mars" ( for Tom Baker) "The Caves of Androzani " ( for Peter Davidson), " Remembrance of the Daleks" ( for Slyvester McCoy) and completely ignoring any with Colin Baker

[Drolyt]

I must admit I only watched one episode of it so I can't really comment.
It was the fourth Doctor though that I remember.
Personally for classic Who I'd recommend " The Green Death" ( for John Pertwee) "Pyramids of Mars" ( for Tom Baker) "The Caves of Androzani " ( for Peter Davidson), " Remembrance of the Daleks" ( for Slyvester McCoy) and completely ignoring any with Colin Baker

Poor Colin, must be curse from having Tom's name... Already saw Pyramids of Mars, I'll check out the others. Thanks.

[Starscream]

Is Logopolis good? That's one I heard I should watch from the old series, which Doctor was it?

It's the 4th Doctor's last story. He regenerates in the end, and Davison takes over for the next story, Castrovalva, which also features the Master.

[Drolyt]

It's the 4th Doctor's last story. He regenerates in the end, and Davison takes over for the next story, Castrovalva, which also features the Master.

Cool. I'm watching it tonight.

[The Big Dice]

Is Logopolis good? That's one I heard I should watch from the old series, which Doctor was it?

Other than the regeneration and the Master accidentally destroying a huge chunk of the universe, Logopolis isn't that great. It does neatly fill the middle part of the trilogy that starts with Keeper of Traken and ends with Castrovalva, but other than that it's a bit dull. Which sadly is a symptom of Tom Baker's last year in the role.

For classic Doctor / Master action, check out Claws of Axos and The Sea Devils with Jon Pertwee and The Deadly Assassin with Tom Baker.

[Drolyt]

Other than the regeneration and the Master accidentally destroying a huge chunk of the universe, Logopolis isn't that great. It does neatly fill the middle part of the trilogy that starts with Keeper of Traken and ends with Castrovalva, but other than that it's a bit dull. Which sadly is a symptom of Tom Baker's last year in the role.

For classic Doctor / Master action, check out Claws of Axos and The Sea Devils with Jon Pertwee and The Deadly Assassin with Tom Baker.

So many episodes to watch! It'll take me a while, but I guess I'll want to try those ones as soon as possible. I want to see more of the Master.

[Starscream]

It does neatly fill the middle part of the trilogy that starts with Keeper of Traken and ends with Castrovalva, but other than that it's a bit dull. Which sadly is a symptom of Tom Baker's last year in the role.

Yeah, I heard that "decay and entropy" were supposed to be a recurring theme in that whole season. Personally, I think it's just a fancy way to say "mildly depressing".

[The Big Dice]

Yeah, I heard that "decay and entropy" were supposed to be a recurring theme in that whole season. Personally, I think it's just a fancy way to say "mildly depressing".

I totally blame Christopher Hamilton Bidmead, the script editor for that season. He was far too obsessed with the tech of the day and not so much the story. Which means that things tended to be very dry. Though to be fair, Warrior's Gate is awesome. Very atmospheric and boldly experimental.

[Drolyt]

Wow, you guys know your stuff. I just started watching Who last year (well, the year before last, but this one has barely started) (though I guess I must be younger than you: I wasn't alive when the old series was canceled).

[The Big Dice]

Wow, you guys know your stuff. I just started watching Who last year (well, the year before last, but this one has barely started) (though I guess I must be younger than you: I wasn't alive when the old series was canceled).

I'm old :smallbiggrin:

I'm not kidding, I was 2 when Jon Pertwee turned into Tom Baker, though I don't remember that. My earliest Who recollections, other than the opening titles, are the mummies in Pyramids of Mars and the monster in Brain of Morbius.

Now I've got some disposable income, I tend to pick up a DVD or two every month or so. Which means I've got a LOT of them hogging all the space on my shelves!

This page (http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/) is useful too. It's an index of all the Classic Who stories.

[Starscream]

Wow, you guys know your stuff. I just started watching Who last year (well, the year before last, but this one has barely started) (though I guess I must be younger than you: I wasn't alive when the old series was canceled).

Actually, I was only five when it was canceled. But for years my local PBS station reran it, so I grew up watching.

Problem is they showed the serials in random order. There would be a Fifth Doctor story followed by a Seventh Doctor story, followed by a Third Doctor story.

Cool in that I got to be familiar with every Doctor and their companions. Bad in that I was a little kid, and it was the early nineties so I didn't have internet access, so it took me quite a while to figure out why the Doctor was sometimes one guy and sometimes another. And why the companions kept changing. And why everything was sometimes black and white.

Eventually I witnessed a few regenerations and the premise became clearer.:smallsmile:

[Drolyt]

Well, I first saw the new series on PBS (I don't have cable) and I thought it was pretty good, but I got hooked after I saw the last few episodes of series 3. The Master is one of the most awesome villains ever. All those episodes where the Doctor defeats all those alien menaces, he practically toys with the Family of Blood, and the Master completely owns him in Sound of Drums. Though that's not even it, John Simm is just so awesome in that role, the way he plays a madman so perfectly, the way he so casually takes over the world, laughing the whole time, it's hard to describe how awesome it is. His redemption in The End of Time was great too, how the Doctor says "get out of the way" and then shoots the link, then when the Doctor is about to die the Master says "get out of the way" and kicks Rassilon's ass. The only episodes I liked as much as the ones with the Master are "The Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances" and "Blink", and "The Girl in the Fireplace" was close. Oddly those four are all Steven Moffat. He's the main reason I have high hopes for the future of Who.

[comicshorse]

If you're a fan of The Master I'd highly recommend 'The Deadly Assassin' the best of the old Who's Master stories IMHO

[Drolyt]

If you're a fan of The Master I'd highly recommend 'The Deadly Assassin' the best of the old Who's Master stories IMHO

Okay I just watched it. It was pretty good, but why was The Master some kind of undead monster? Seriously, I'd almost think he was a Lich, given how hard he is to kill.

[Starscream]

Okay I just watched it. It was pretty good, but why was The Master some kind of undead monster? Seriously, I'd almost think he was a Lich, given how hard he is to kill.

At this point he had run out of regenerations, and his body was basically a rotting shell, kept alive by pure strength of will. I think he appeared in two serials in this form. So yeah, "Lich" would be a pretty apt way to describe him.

In the Keeper of Traken, he would succeed in taking over a new healthy body, and that was the birth of the Ainley-Master that would remain until the end of the series.