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View Full Version : [3.5] High Level Incarnum Advice



Person_Man
2010-01-13, 01:03 PM
So thanks to my zealotry for Magic of Incarnum, I've convinced another DM to allow it into his group for a one shot one day campaign. DM has said we can be anywhere between ECL 15-20, and that he will just adjust his campaign accordingly to fit our power level. All WotC books and Pathfinder are allowed, but no magazines, homebrew, or other 3rd party material, and we're discouraged from using web material.

I've played with a couple different Incarnum builds before. But I made the mistake of using PrC and lots of Incarnum feats and items, and optimizing well known melee combos. The net result was that it was nearly impossible for the DM and other players to understand what I'm doing, and there was no clear reason for them to learn the rules ("I don't need to learn yet another way to get a +8 to Grapple. Numbers are boring.")

So I thought that this time I would play a strait Totemist or Incarnate, and that my primary build goal would be to show off what's cool and unique they are.

Ideas?

Glimbur
2010-01-13, 01:10 PM
Go straight Totemist. Have lots of claws and bites and such.

Then a few days later use the Manticore Belt instead, and a breath weapon. Watch everybody get confused. That's the best way I can think of to show the flexibility of Incarnum. It might be tough having enough feats to be effective at both these things though.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-13, 01:35 PM
Incarate!
Go Cloud Strife with Incarnum Weapon (a big hunking sword for over compensating for something)!

JasonP
2010-01-13, 01:37 PM
If you're wanting to show off versatility, go Totemist and use soulmelds that have good totem chakra binds and use your Rebind Totem Soulmeld ability to change that chakra bind as often as needed (shifting your essentia as needed too), maybe even using the Double Chakra feat for super totem versatility.

If you plan on shaping a ton of soulmelds, this is one instance where vow of poverty could be more useful than not.

Don't forget about the soulmelds in Dragon Magic, you have to have dragonblood but that's not too hard to get. The Dragonfire Mask is pretty good with lots of versatility.

Everyman
2010-01-13, 02:58 PM
I have to agree with everyone else. Totemist is just a wonderful class. If you're trying to show off what's unique, I'd pick your soulmelds to fit a "theme" or power set you like, but toss in a few odd ones that compliment your theme with some variety. Like building a charger with Sphinx Claws and Landshark Boots (I believe that's what they're called), but adding on something like a Manticore Belt and Blink Shirt so you can teleport around and hurl spikes if you want/need.

Also, I'm going to recommend Sinfire Titan's handbook on the subject. His analysis of the soulmelds is pretty solid.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-13, 03:11 PM
Incarate!
Go Cloud Strife with Incarnum Weapon (a big hunking sword for over compensating for something)!

...It's a Longsword, not a Fullblade.

And I believe Person Man is familiar with my Incarnum Handbook, considering he's one of the 15 or so others who could be considered an authority on the book.

The key is to find out what niche the party needs most before deciding your role. If it's healing or Skill Monkey work, Incarnate w/ UMD focus will get the job done best. If it's tanking or BC, Totemist and go either Breath Weapons (for BC) or Girallon Arms (for tanking, obviously).

At 15th level, you have access to most of the best tricks. It's possible to get the Heart Chakra a level early using Ironsoul Forgemaster, so if you go Incarnate and aren't Evil you would do well to consider that. I recommend staying away from Totem Rager for this character in spite of how awesome it is, as the combos are a bit more complex than normal Totemists.

Heh, I've been working on an Incarnate Handbook with a mini-laptop for a while. It's mostly complete (just need to finish the magic item section, but even that has a lot all ready), so I just need to upload it. I've got some free time today, so I'll get done what I can and link you.

Blackfang108
2010-01-13, 03:15 PM
...It's a Longsword, not a Fullblade.

But remember, it's specifically described as looking one size category larger.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-16, 05:27 PM
Bumping: Incarnate Handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6920.0) Format is still a little sloppy, but Windows 7 hates BG for some reason.

Person_Man
2010-01-16, 11:05 PM
Bumping: Incarnate Handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6920.0) Format is still a little sloppy, but Windows 7 hates BG for some reason.

Awesome. Thanks Sinfire. I was actually working on my own guide as well. But since you're definitely better known for your work on this and have already done all of the heavy lifting, I'll just post my combos over there.

Also, I think I've decided on Totemist 2/Incarnate 13. That will give me 10 soulmelds (3 Totemist, 7 Incarnate), 4 chakra binds, and 15 points of Incarnum. Here's what I'm thinking right now.

Brow: Soulspark Familiar: Needed for familiar combo.

Crown: Elder Spirit: UMD, Knowledge Arcana, Knowledge History boost.

Feet: Acrobat Boots (Tumble, Balance, Escape Artist, Jump) or Worg Pelt (Hide and Move Silently.

Hands: Sphinx Claws (bound): Pounce with natural weapons. (Though I'm thinking of trading this off for some other method. Sadly, most of other methods short of a Barbarian dip involve giving up a Swfit Action, which is too important for an Incarnum build).

Heart: Spellward Shirt. Best Spell Resistance I'm aware of in 3.5.

Shoulder: Chaos Roc's Span (bound): 2 wing buffet attacks with reach. If you hit an enemy with both in one round, they have to Save or be dazed. (Dragon mag 350 pg 87)

Soul: Keeneye lenses: Bonus to Spot.

Throat: Dissolving Spittle (bound). Ranged Touch attack with excellent damage.

Totem: Girillion Arms (bound): Bonus to Grapple. 4 claws.
Totem: Heart of Fire (bound): Bonus damage against cold enemies, bonus Fire damage to all natural attacks.

Waist: Dragon Tail: Tail attack.


Feats: Double Chakra (Totem), Share Soulmeld, Multiattack, 2 open (probably Improved Grapple and Scorpion's Grasp).

Equiptment: Fanged Ring (grants Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Weapon for Unarmed Strike).

I'm aware I need to drop at least one Bound chakra and one Totem soulmeld. I just haven't decided which one yeat. But this should give me a good mix of offense and Skills. I'll talk to the other party members to see if we can get the sneaky scout duties covered by someone else, so that I can up my defense more. But as of right now, I have two major combos.

First, I have a bunch of natural weapons plus two from my Unarmed Strike - which are also natural weapons and don't prevent me from using all of my claw attacks (since you can kick, head butt, etc). I should be able to get 7d4 extra Fire damage to each from Heart of Fire, and a full attack every round thanks to Pounce. I'll probably end up with Scorpion's Grasp as well, making him excellent at taking down bosses or spreading his attacks across several weaker enemies.

Second, the Share Soulmeld feat let's my Soulspark Familiar benefit from my soulmelds as long as he is within 5 feet. (I'm aware that there's a debate on this, and that some people say that you need an Familiar/Companion/Mount from another class. But my DM should be fine with it). So he too should be able to help in melee, or be a ranged threat with Acid Spittle. It'll die the first time he's hit (the unbound version is very weak) but I can always re-bind it after combat thanks to my Incarnum abilities.

Thoughts?

Darrin
2010-01-16, 11:27 PM
Equiptment: Fanged Ring (grants Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Weapon for Unarmed Strike).


I've always been puzzled by that... by RAW, an Unarmed Strike is *not* a natural weapon unless you have the Monk version of Unarmed Strike (or a similar ability from something like Fist of the Forest, Shou Disciple, or what have you). Always seemed kind of silly to me that it gave Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack, but to use INA you'd have to already have Unarmed Strike from somewhere else. Do most people just house-rule this because it never occurred to the designer that Unarmed Strike and Natural Attack are two different things?

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-17, 12:59 AM
Person_Man, you can't take Double Chakra on the Totemist side due to the Meldshaper Level requirements (RAI I mean, RAW your levels in INcarnate technically let you qualify). Make sure the DM is OK with that interpretation before setting the feat in stone.

Person_Man
2010-01-18, 12:19 PM
I've always been puzzled by that... by RAW, an Unarmed Strike is *not* a natural weapon unless you have the Monk version of Unarmed Strike (or a similar ability from something like Fist of the Forest, Shou Disciple, or what have you). Always seemed kind of silly to me that it gave Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack, but to use INA you'd have to already have Unarmed Strike from somewhere else. Do most people just house-rule this because it never occurred to the designer that Unarmed Strike and Natural Attack are two different things?

While I know you are correct by RAW Darrin, I personally just ignore the issue, as do all of the DMs that I have gamed with. This is true even when playing Pathfinder (which has explicitly ruled that you can't combine unarmed strikes with Improved Natural Weapon, which is silly, since the Fanged Ring does exactly that). There's really no reason to make someone dip a level into Monk if they want to play an unarmed build.


Person_Man, you can't take Double Chakra on the Totemist side due to the Meldshaper Level requirements (RAI I mean, RAW your levels in INcarnate technically let you qualify). Make sure the DM is OK with that interpretation before setting the feat in stone.

You're correct, of course. But I think my DM will allow it.

Honestly, I'd love to drop the Totemist levels entirely and go single class Incarnate. But the Incarnate just doesn't have any good offensive options. They're pretty much all defense with some good Skill options. You might be able to pull off some tricks with Sleight of Hand or a special attack, but the lack of BAB/iterative attacks and natural attacks just kills at high levels. Is there some combo that I'm missing?

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-18, 01:14 PM
While I know you are correct by RAW Darrin, I personally just ignore the issue, as do all of the DMs that I have gamed with. This is true even when playing Pathfinder (which has explicitly ruled that you can't combine unarmed strikes with Improved Natural Weapon, which is silly, since the Fanged Ring does exactly that). There's really no reason to make someone dip a level into Monk if they want to play an unarmed build.



You're correct, of course. But I think my DM will allow it.

Honestly, I'd love to drop the Totemist levels entirely and go single class Incarnate. But the Incarnate just doesn't have any good offensive options. They're pretty much all defense with some good Skill options. You might be able to pull off some tricks with Sleight of Hand or a special attack, but the lack of BAB/iterative attacks and natural attacks just kills at high levels. Is there some combo that I'm missing?

UMD is the Incarnate's best offense. Buy a staff or two, and watch as your emulated Caster Level skyrockets. Or just use Divine Power like the optimizer you know you are, and play every role your WBL and Soulmelds can afford.

Person_Man
2010-01-19, 11:44 AM
Hmm. I might just do that.

Here's another build I was toying around with, which is a take on a build in the Incarnum Handbook:

Dragonborn Dwarf (for Con bonus and flight)

Something 5/Ironsoul Forgemaster 10/Master of Masks 1

Soulmelds:


Mauling Gauntlets (Incarnate, Hands): Bonus to Str checks.
Mage's Spectacles (Incarate, Brow): UMD, Decipher Script, Spellcraft.
Blink Shirt (Totemist, Bound to Heart): Dimension Door at Will, Blink at Will
Spellward Shirt (Incarnate, Heart): Spell Resistance.
Crystal Helm (Incarnate, Bound to Crown): Deflection bonus to AC, melee attacks gain Force descriptor.


Class Features:
Invest essentia in Shield: Universal Energy Resistance.
Invest essentia in Armor: DR/-, stacks with similar DR provided by armor.
Invest essentia in weapon: Adds damage bonus, adds Save or Daze effect against any living enemy.

The basic combo is that Master of Masks can and will use any Exotic weapon (giving easy access to Trip, Grapple, ranged, reach, etc) and that Ironsoul Forgemaster can invest essentia into it, increasing the To-Hit and Damage bonus and giving it a Daze effect. I can Blink at Will, and all of my attacks have the Force descriptor.

Another bizarre option is to bind Brood Keeper's Heart (Totemist soulmeld in Dragon 350) to my Heart slot, which grants the Swarm template. Although you still count as your normal size, it would grant immunity to Critical Hits, Stagger, Grapple, Trip, Bull Rush, and targeted spells (though 50% more damage from area of effect attacks). I have to reread the ability, but when combined with Evasion and Energy Immunity, it might just be one of the best defensive options out there.

Questions:

I'm not sure about the best entry into Ironsoul Forgemaster:

Rogue 2/Incarnate 3: Sneak Attack (Craven!), Evasion, Skills.
Incarnate 5: 2-3 more essentia, ability to bind Feet and Hands w/o Feat investment.
Totemist 2/Incarnate 3: Totem chakra, won't need to spend Feat on Blink Shirt.

I have a suprising number of soulmelds open. Suggestions?

Also, does anyone know an armor that provides DR/- other then adamantine, or anything else that improves that DR?

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-19, 12:08 PM
Hmm. I might just do that.

Here's another build I was toying around with, which is a take on a build in the Incarnum Handbook:

Dragonborn Dwarf (for Con bonus and flight)

Something 5/Ironsoul Forgemaster 10/Master of Masks 1

Soulmelds:


Mauling Gauntlets (Incarnate, Hands): Bonus to Str checks.
Mage's Spectacles (Incarate, Brow): UMD, Decipher Script, Spellcraft.
Blink Shirt (Totemist, Bound to Heart): Dimension Door at Will, Blink at Will
Spellward Shirt (Incarnate, Heart): Spell Resistance.
Crystal Helm (Incarnate, Bound to Crown): Deflection bonus to AC, melee attacks gain Force descriptor.


Class Features:
Invest essentia in Shield: Universal Energy Resistance.
Invest essentia in Armor: DR/-, stacks with similar DR provided by armor.
Invest essentia in weapon: Adds damage bonus, adds Save or Daze effect against any living enemy.

The basic combo is that Master of Masks can and will use any Exotic weapon (giving easy access to Trip, Grapple, ranged, reach, etc) and that Ironsoul Forgemaster can invest essentia into it, increasing the To-Hit and Damage bonus and giving it a Daze effect. I can Blink at Will, and all of my attacks have the Force descriptor.

Another bizarre option is to bind Brood Keeper's Heart (Totemist soulmeld in Dragon 350) to my Heart slot, which grants the Swarm template. Although you still count as your normal size, it would grant immunity to Critical Hits, Stagger, Grapple, Trip, Bull Rush, and targeted spells (though 50% more damage from area of effect attacks). I have to reread the ability, but when combined with Evasion and Energy Immunity, it might just be one of the best defensive options out there.

Questions:

I'm not sure about the best entry into Ironsoul Forgemaster:

Rogue 2/Incarnate 3: Sneak Attack (Craven!), Evasion, Skills.
Incarnate 5: 2-3 more essentia, ability to bind Feet and Hands w/o Feat investment.
Totemist 2/Incarnate 3: Totem chakra, won't need to spend Feat on Blink Shirt.

I have a suprising number of soulmelds open. Suggestions?

Also, does anyone know an armor that provides DR/- other then adamantine, or anything else that improves that DR?

You have two melds on the Heart chakra, so you need Double chakra at 18th or 15th to keep that combo working.


Vitallity Belt is obvious. Crystal Helm if possible without spending a feat. Impulse Boots or Cerulean Sandals are always good (since you have Flight covered). Mantle of Flame last, so you won't need Sneak Attack dice all that much (and can just grab it with Martial Stance around 12th).

Glimbur
2010-01-19, 12:08 PM
An interesting but questionable idea I've seen is getting Soulbound weapons and armor, because the essentia you put into your arms and armor as an Ironsoul Forgemaster might also count for the Soulbound special ability.

It's a shame you can't afford Incarnate 6, because that would get you another bind. I'd suggest Incarnate 5 as an entrance because Rapid Meldshaping can be useful, and Evasion can be done with a soulmeld + bind if you expect to need it.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-19, 12:15 PM
An interesting but questionable idea I've seen is getting Soulbound weapons and armor, because the essentia you put into your arms and armor as an Ironsoul Forgemaster might also count for the Soulbound special ability.

It's a shame you can't afford Incarnate 6, because that would get you another bind. I'd suggest Incarnate 5 as an entrance because Rapid Meldshaping can be useful, and Evasion can be done with a soulmeld + bind if you expect to need it.

Soulbound is only good on an Amulet of Natural Attacks for the Manticore Belt. he's honestly better off asking if his Incarnate's Expanded Soulmeld Capacity class feature applies to the Ironsoul Forgemaster (because it does say "as though they were soulmelds").

I agree on the Incarnate, but he's got a good idea for the EWP tricks. Master of Masks may not rate very highly in my book, but it does give class skills that may matter and I can see where he's going with the combo.


All you need to worry about is enhancing your weapon to the point where your mediocre BAB doesn't really hurt you that much.

Person_Man
2010-01-19, 01:00 PM
I agree on the Incarnate, but he's got a good idea for the EWP tricks. Master of Masks may not rate very highly in my book, but it does give class skills that may matter and I can see where he's going with the combo.

Yeah, basically this build is starved for feats and can't reasonably use Power Attack, and Master of Masks gives you the poor man's version of Improved Trip, Scorpion's Grasp, Improved Disarm, Entangle, plus a Spiked Chain when you really need it. Ironsoul Forgemaster a moderate damage bonus and a great status effect to all of your attacks.

So, which entry would you go for?