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xarumitzu
2010-01-13, 07:11 PM
Greetings everyone,

I'm new to this forum and I wanted to apologize if this is the wrong place to post this.

I'm new to D&D and have been reading cleric handbooks that I've found on the web but I find them fairly confusing. As far as the characters ability points go I rolled a: 17, 15, 15, 14, 11, and a 7. I haven't really decided where to put anything yet. I would also like to be a human. Any advice would be appreciated.

Mongoose87
2010-01-13, 07:30 PM
Well, the 17 obviously goes to Wisdom.

What level are you starting at?

Gnorman
2010-01-13, 07:34 PM
Clerics can do a lot of different things. Help us understand what specifically you'd like to do.

Do you want to be a healbot? A party buffer? A self-buffer and melee terror? A summoner? A blaster (clerics make subpar blasters, but they can pull it off sometimes)? A knowledgeable skill monkey type? A diplomatic face?

What's the character goal? What's your play style goal? Once we know those things, we can start determining how the mechanics play out.

If you're undecided, I recommend a basic melee clericzilla. Avoid DMM and Persist, as that just gets books thrown at you. The 17 goes in WIS, obviously. The 15s should go in STR and CON, while the 14 goes in CHA. 11 and 7 are your INT and DEX scores, depending: you don't need skills, but they're nice to have. DEX is mostly useless, as you'll be in heavy armor, but your reflex save is gonna suck.

xarumitzu
2010-01-13, 08:15 PM
Well, the 17 obviously goes to Wisdom.

What level are you starting at?

I'm staring at level 4 to fit into an already formed party.


Clerics can do a lot of different things. Help us understand what specifically you'd like to do.

Do you want to be a healbot? A party buffer? A self-buffer and melee terror? A summoner? A blaster (clerics make subpar blasters, but they can pull it off sometimes)? A knowledgeable skill monkey type? A diplomatic face?

What's the character goal? What's your play style goal? Once we know those things, we can start determining how the mechanics play out.

If you're undecided, I recommend a basic melee clericzilla. Avoid DMM and Persist, as that just gets books thrown at you. The 17 goes in WIS, obviously. The 15s should go in STR and CON, while the 14 goes in CHA. 11 and 7 are your INT and DEX scores, depending: you don't need skills, but they're nice to have. DEX is mostly useless, as you'll be in heavy armor, but your reflex save is gonna suck.

Well, I want to be mostly melee based. But at the same time, I also want to be able to help the other characters when they need it. The other party members are a Gnome Bard, Two elven rangers, and elf rouge, a human wizard, and a half elf paladin.

My first try at making the cleric with only basic knowledge of what the ability scores meant was this: I put the 17in WIS, 15 STR, 15 CON, 11 INT, 14 DEX, and 7 CHA. I chose chainmail armor, a heavy steel shield, and a heavy mace. I had an AC of 19, and an attack bonus of 5. However, with the crappy CHA score I only had one turn attempt per day. Would this work for my basic idea?

Magdela
2010-01-13, 08:19 PM
Swap the Dex and Cha. You're not going to really need the reflex save. Turn undead is...well it's like superman without super strength. Sure, he can still do laser eyes, fly, and ice breath people, but that means he won't pack a punch :P

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-13, 08:20 PM
That is good for stats. You could also put the 11 in dex and the 14 in Int and go with full plate and more skill points. I myself tend to use Cha as a dump for clerics as well. Turning scales poorly as you level up.


Don't forget, at 4th level and every 4 levels after you get a free stat point to put where ever you want.

Gnorman
2010-01-13, 08:30 PM
Don't forget, at 4th level and every 4 levels after you get a free stat point to put where ever you want.

Which, even with as many odd scores as you have, should always go into WIS. I'd rather have a bonus spell slot than +1 to attack/damage any day - that spell slot might let me cast Divine Power, for example.

Devils_Advocate
2010-01-13, 09:04 PM
You have chosen the correct forum for this post.

You could read through the list of available deities to try to figure out which one seems like it would be the most fun to play a worshiper of. If you know what the campaign is going to involve, then you could try to make a character who will be skilled at and motivated to do whatever activities the plot demands. Or, since your character will have one low stat, you could pick a weakness to expand on. Like, if he or she has a Wisdom of 17 and an Int of 7, maybe your character is too dumb to fool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooDumbToFool).

Do you know what setting you'll be playing in, what the campaign will be like, what material is allowed, and/or what house rules are being used?

There are lots of different character concepts that the Cleric class can lend itself to. For example, you could play a devotee of Erythnul, who believes that killing things and taking their stuff will give him the combat experience, magic items, and divine favor needed to kill even more powerful things and take their even better stuff, in a murderous cycle of self-improvement.

(See, it's funny, because it represents a wry commentary on D&D's standard "adventuring" paradigm. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitle0t9r68ih?from=Main.DontExplainTheJoke))

xarumitzu
2010-01-13, 09:19 PM
I was thinking about switching my INT with my CHA score. I figure Clerics don't receive many skill points to begin with, so it wouldn't matter too much. However, it would lower my concentration check to a -2 and that would hurt my ability to cast a spell during an encounter. I like having an AC of 19 and if I switch my DEX with the CHA then it lowers my AC to a 15.

Considering my odd stats, should I just re-roll my character?

Gnorman
2010-01-13, 09:21 PM
You have chosen the correct forum for this post.

You could read through the list of available deities to try to figure out which one seems like it would be the most fun to play a worshiper of. If you know what the campaign is going to involve, then you could try to make a character who will be skilled at and motivated to do whatever activities the plot demands. Or, since your character will have one low stat, you could pick a weakness to expand on. Like, if he or she has a Wisdom of 17 and an Int of 7, maybe your character is too dumb to fool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooDumbToFool).

Do you know what setting you'll be playing in, what the campaign will be like, what material is allowed, and/or what house rules are being used?

There are lots of different character concepts that the Cleric class can lend itself to. For example, you could play a devotee of Erythnul, who believes that killing things and taking their stuff will give him the combat experience, magic items, and divine favor needed to kill even more powerful things and take their even better stuff, in a murderous cycle of self-improvement.

(See, it's funny, because it represents a wry commentary on D&D's standard "adventuring" paradigm. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitle0t9r68ih?from=Main.DontExplainTheJoke))

Man, don't mock our paradigm. We're too well-entrenched to get it.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-13, 09:22 PM
I was thinking about switching my INT with my CHA score. I figure Clerics don't receive many skill points to begin with, so it wouldn't matter too much. However, it would lower my concentration check to a -2 and that would hurt my ability to cast a spell during an encounter. I like having an AC of 19 and if I switch my DEX with the CHA then it lowers my AC to a 15.

Considering my odd stats, should I just re-roll my character?

Not if you move up into bigger armor.

xarumitzu
2010-01-13, 09:32 PM
Not if you move up into bigger armor.

Is full plate armor accessible to someone level 4? I'm sorry if I sound dumb, I'm completely new to this. I guess if I dump CHA I could always get "Extra Turning" as a feat to boost the turn attempts as well.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-13, 09:34 PM
It sure is. and don't worry, we all started someplace.

xarumitzu
2010-01-13, 09:43 PM
It sure is. and don't worry, we all started someplace.

Okay, I like you're idea. Switching to plate armor would give me an AC of 20, which was better than before, and I get more skill points. Plus, I have enough gold left from our last game to afford it! If I pick "Extra Turning" it would give me 5 turning attempts per day, so the low CHA score is okay. I planned on leaving the diplomatic stuff to the more experienced players anyhow :smallbiggrin:. I think I can make this work. Thanks a lot!

EDIT: I forgot about the bonus skill point, I'd more than likely put that towards wisdom for a score of 18 and a bonus spell slot as suggested.

Glimbur
2010-01-13, 10:14 PM
I was thinking about switching my INT with my CHA score. I figure Clerics don't receive many skill points to begin with, so it wouldn't matter too much. However, it would lower my concentration check to a -2 and that would hurt my ability to cast a spell during an encounter. I like having an AC of 19 and if I switch my DEX with the CHA then it lowers my AC to a 15.

Considering my odd stats, should I just re-roll my character?

Concentration is one of the few Constitution based skills, actually. Also, from a mechanical perspective, if you had a Cleric with so little Int they only got one skill point a level you should put it in Concentration because casting defensively is nice.

Devils_Advocate
2010-01-13, 10:17 PM
I was thinking about switching my INT with my CHA score. I figure Clerics don't receive many skill points to begin with, so it wouldn't matter too much. However, it would lower my concentration check to a -2 and that would hurt my ability to cast a spell during an encounter.
Concentration is Constitution-based (oddly), not Intelligence-based. Also, Concentration is probably going to be your most important skill, so max it out.

Every character gets a minimum of one skill point per class level, and humans get their bonus skill points after calculating their skill points from class levels, if I recall correctly, so even with Int 7 your character still gets 2 skill points per level. I'd suggest also maxing Knowledge (religion).


I like having an AC of 19 and if I switch my DEX with the CHA then it lowers my AC to a 15.
Assign the 11 to Dex and replace the chainmail with half-plate. Badda bing, AC 19 retained.


Considering my odd stats, should I just re-roll my character?
No, those are perfectly good stats. 17 Wis, 15 Str, 15 Cha, 14 Con, 11 Dex, 7 Int should work just fine. That's pretty much a prototypical 3.5 melee cleric, right there. Sensible, persuasive, strong, tough, neither nimble nor bright, and covered in metal. That, my friend, is a real cleric's cleric. Ayup.

For domains, you'll probably want War, Strength, Protection, Healing or the like to buff and/or heal yourself and/or others. Which deities do you have to choose from? If the paladin follows a god, you might consider picking the same one, making your characters from the same church, etc. Doesn't hurt to have at least some of the characters already know each other when the story starts.


Man, don't mock our paradigm. We're too well-entrenched to get it.
But, see, I foresaw this, so pointed it out so you wouldn't miss it! :smallwink:

xarumitzu
2010-01-13, 10:23 PM
Concentration is one of the few Constitution based skills, actually. Also, from a mechanical perspective, if you had a Cleric with so little Int they only got one skill point a level you should put it in Concentration because casting defensively is nice.

Oh, I did not know that. I'm planning on putting my scores like this now: 17 STR, 11 DEX, 15 CON, 14 INT, 17 WIS, and 7 CHA. It's a level 4 Cleric with full plate armor, a heavy steel shield, a heavy mace. Feat wise I was planning on going with: Extra Turning, Combat Casting, and Diehard.



For domains, you'll probably want War, Strength, Protection, Healing or the like to buff and/or heal yourself and/or others. Which deities do you have to choose from? If the paladin follows a god, you might consider picking the same one, making your characters from the same church, etc. Doesn't hurt to have at least some of the characters already know each other when the story starts.


I was planning on following Pelor.

taltamir
2010-01-13, 10:28 PM
No, those are perfectly good stats. 17 Wis, 15 Str, 15 Cha, 14 Con, 11 Dex, 7 Int should work just fine. That's pretty much a prototypical 3.5 melee cleric, right there. Sensible, persuasive, strong, tough, neither nimble nor bright, and covered in metal. That, my friend, is a real cleric's cleric. Ayup.

Having a 15 in strength is a wise choice, str is the only attribute that benefits from odd amounts (a 15 str character can carry more then a 14 str character); of course, other attributes can have an odd value to buffer against drains and to help with boosts (+5 from a tome)

I would put the 15 in con and the 14 in cha... you are not gonna boost either one, and con is more likely to be drained (and having it drained is more likely to be lethal), having that extra point is safer in con.

Dex is pretty damn useless for a cleric, and at 7 int you are gaining 0 skill points per level. I Would swap dex and int so that you get some skill points and lose out on 2 AC (you have plenty) and 2 reflex save (skill points are better)
A more "ascetic" cleric would get a good int for extra skill points and focus more on his true power, spells.
Turning is a really weak ability, it is inferior to anything else you can do; so consider dumping cha.

So my final suggestion is:
17 Wis, 15 Str, 15 Con, 14 Int, 11 dex and 7 cha. (anything charisma based for a cleric has a minimum value; typically of 1... that means that you need a minimum cha of 14 to see any benefit. Dropping it all the way to 7 doesn't hinder you at the least.)

Gnorman
2010-01-13, 10:35 PM
at 7 int you are gaining 0 skill points per level

You always get at least one skill point per level. Which goes straight into Constitution. A low INT doesn't hurt clerics much at all, considering that they'd only get two anyway.

Devils_Advocate
2010-01-14, 01:24 AM
Turning is a really weak ability, it is inferior to anything else you can do; so consider dumping cha.
Uses of Turn Undead can be used to power various non-core feats that range from useful to darned cheesy. But that's nothing that a beginning player needs to worry about, and using Turn Undead to actually turn undead tends not to be too great, so yeah.


(anything charisma based for a cleric has a minimum value; typically of 1... that means that you need a minimum cha of 14 to see any benefit. Dropping it all the way to 7 doesn't hinder you at the least.)
You are incorrect. A cleric can turn undead 3 + his Charisma modifier times per day; lowering Cha from 14 to 7 lowers the number of turnings from 5 to 1. It also reduces turning checks and turning damage.


I'm planning on putting my scores like this now: 17 STR, 11 DEX, 15 CON, 14 INT, 17 WIS, and 7 CHA.
Where'd the extra 17 come from? I'm guessing you mean 15 Str.

Which skills are you planning on picking up? If you're going with 14 for Int, I'd suggest Concentration, Knowledge (religion), Spellcraft, Knowledge (the planes), and Knowledge (history). (Diplomacy and Knowledge (arcana) should already be pretty well covered by the bard and wizard, and Heal is fairly worthless next to magical healing.)


Feat wise I was planning on going with: Extra Turning, Combat Casting, and Diehard.
Diehard has Endurance as a prerequisite.

Using Extra Turning to make up for low Charisma doesn't really make much sense unless you're going to use turn undead uses to fuel divine feats. Low Cha means that you'll turn undead relatively poorly when you do it anyway, and Turn Undead is sort of a lackluster ability to start with, so you're sort of mostly giving your character more chances to suck.


I was planning on following Pelor.
Rawk. Pelor seeks to alleviate suffering through healing, nourishing, and protecting the needy. Many well-meaning souls seek to join his clergy, but his church requires such dedication to the cause of Good by its clerics that many novices are quickly weeded out by the demands of such a position. The ongoing and necessary fight against Evil is but one means of rendering assistance to those who need it, with retribution not for retribution's sake but held to the same standards of compassion, kindness, and mercy as all else. (Contrast to Cuthbert.) I endorse this deity.

So, the Healing domain for healing (duh), Good and/or Strength for buffing, and/or... Sun if you want to turn undead well.

Because it is possible to turn undead well, and have Turn Undead be a useful ability. You can take the Sun domain, put a good score in Charisma, take the Extra Turning and Improved Turning feats, and eventually pick up a phylactery of undead turning and cloak of charisma. All of these things synergize with each other and serve to make each other worthwhile and add up to something powerful.

But don't half-ass Turn Undead, because like a lot of things, it needs to be increasingly buffed as you level to remain worthwhile.

xarumitzu
2010-01-14, 08:39 AM
Uses of Turn Undead can be used to power various non-core feats that range from useful to darned cheesy. But that's nothing that a beginning player needs to worry about, and using Turn Undead to actually turn undead tends not to be too great, so yeah.


You are incorrect. A cleric can turn undead 3 + his Charisma modifier times per day; lowering Cha from 14 to 7 lowers the number of turnings from 5 to 1. It also reduces turning checks and turning damage.


Where'd the extra 17 come from? I'm guessing you mean 15 Str.

Which skills are you planning on picking up? If you're going with 14 for Int, I'd suggest Concentration, Knowledge (religion), Spellcraft, Knowledge (the planes), and Knowledge (history). (Diplomacy and Knowledge (arcana) should already be pretty well covered by the bard and wizard, and Heal is fairly worthless next to magical healing.)


Diehard has Endurance as a prerequisite.

Using Extra Turning to make up for low Charisma doesn't really make much sense unless you're going to use turn undead uses to fuel divine feats. Low Cha means that you'll turn undead relatively poorly when you do it anyway, and Turn Undead is sort of a lackluster ability to start with, so you're sort of mostly giving your character more chances to suck.


Rawk. Pelor seeks to alleviate suffering through healing, nourishing, and protecting the needy. Many well-meaning souls seek to join his clergy, but his church requires such dedication to the cause of Good by its clerics that many novices are quickly weeded out by the demands of such a position. The ongoing and necessary fight against Evil is but one means of rendering assistance to those who need it, with retribution not for retribution's sake but held to the same standards of compassion, kindness, and mercy as all else. (Contrast to Cuthbert.) I endorse this deity.

So, the Healing domain for healing (duh), Good and/or Strength for buffing, and/or... Sun if you want to turn undead well.

Because it is possible to turn undead well, and have Turn Undead be a useful ability. You can take the Sun domain, put a good score in Charisma, take the Extra Turning and Improved Turning feats, and eventually pick up a phylactery of undead turning and cloak of charisma. All of these things synergize with each other and serve to make each other worthwhile and add up to something powerful.

But don't half-ass Turn Undead, because like a lot of things, it needs to be increasingly buffed as you level to remain worthwhile.

Yeah, I meant 15 STR. As far as skills go, I was planning on Concentration Knowledge (religion), Spellcraft, Knowledge (history). I hadn't thought about knowledge (the planes) but I'll keep that in mind.

Are you saying that Pelor is a good choice?

I see what you're saying about Turn Undead. Seeing as how I have the low CHA score, should I just focus more on the healing and strength domains? Which feats would you suggest if in the place of Extra Turning and Diehard?

Gnaeus
2010-01-14, 09:05 AM
Combat Casting, unless you are looking at a prestige class that needs it, is usually weaker than Skill Focus: Concentration. The bonuses are almost the same (+3 vs +4), but combat casting only helps with casting defensively (which isn't usually that hard if you keep your concentration ranks maxed), while the skill focus helps with all kinds of other concentration checks, like if an archer shoots you to try to disrupt your spell, or if you are casting from the mast of a rocking ship in a hurricane. Those checks can have higher difficulties.

Noble Savant
2010-01-14, 09:07 AM
Are you saying that Pelor is a good choice?

I see what you're saying about Turn Undead. Seeing as how I have the low CHA score, should I just focus more on the healing and strength domains? Which feats would you suggest if in the place of Extra Turning and Diehard?

Pelor has the sun domain and opens up the fairly nice Radiant Servant of Pelor prestige class, which is very nice for in-combat healing, (despite what people say, it's nice to have the option), light spells, (There are actually a few nice ones out there), and turning undead.

The Sun Domain lets you actually effect the undead in a significant way when you fight them, because they're actually destroyed when you use greater turning rather then just turned. It also has the benefit of freeing up more turning attempts if you're fighting undead.

But again, this would require you to have a nice Charisma if you want to make use of it. If you want to stick with your Int, have you considered Knowledge Devotion for Complete Champion? It's a great feat for the clever melee types.

Totally Guy
2010-01-14, 10:42 AM
It's hard to go wrong with a cleric. I made one that had a deck of cards with the PHB spells on it and he just picked randomly every morning. (Unless he needed to cast a specific spell right now.) Of course I used that quirk as a flaw and claimed a feat.

Fawsto
2010-01-14, 12:22 PM
Are you a Lawful X Cleric? Have you access to complete champion? Do you want to go melee?

If the answers to the above questions are all "yes", then you can grab, without fear or doubt, Law Devotion as a feat.

It is not a "dangerous degree of optimization" but it nets you a +3 sacred bonus to attack or AC (you choose between them at the begining of your turn) for 1 minute everyday, and another minute for every 3 Turns you spend. Best part? First use is free, and it costs only a swift action to activate. Also the feat escalonates! The sacred bonus will grow to +4 and +5 within time! Much better than, let's say, weapon focus... For the record. (Also, if you are cahotic, stream far away from chaos devotion. It looks cool, but you can't really control it between "on/off" so let it pass).

Now, if you want to go melee, cast away that shield for now. You have spells that do better. Grab the biggest meanest 2 handed weapon you can see around (right now it means that you will be wielding a morningstar or heavy mace with 2 hands) and Power Attack for a respectable damage for the rest of your life.

Power Attack + Law Devotion +2 hands = +6 damage with every swing at 0 penalty to your attack. Niiiiice. (Will grow to +8 and +10 in the future)

Also, your spells are your best friends. Divine Favor... Remember that +1 luck bonus to attack and damage? Well, it is growing right now and it will become a +5 luck bonus in the future... All this while being a 1st level spell you can turn into a 5th level spells by Quickening it. Swift action... Niiiice. You could also Persist it, turning it into a 7th level spell. Your choice latter in the game.

Other spells that you should be looking for are Divine Power, Magic Weapon (Greater), Magic Vestment and Righteous Might. All these are enough to make you a really efficient war machine.

Now, if you want to optimize this character, PM me. I don't think it is a good idea for you right now, but if you really want to know... Well... Call me.

xarumitzu
2010-01-14, 12:22 PM
Hm, I think at this point I'm just going to re-roll the character so I don't have to get boned in one area. At least try to get the modifier to a 0 just in case I ever need it. It seems Clerics use a little bit of everything.

Fawsto
2010-01-14, 12:33 PM
No, do not rerol!

This character has awesome stats!!!

Do not try to excell everywhere. Do not try to do everything. No class can, no matter the stats they have.

Your Cleric has awesome stats. Two 17s? C'mon, you have everything you ever wanted. Don't risk a stream of 11s just to get rid of a 7. Does not worth it.

That 7 is your charisma. Period. The other stats can go anywhere depending on what role you want to fill. A 17 to Str and another to Wis coupled with a 15 or 14 to con nets you an excellent melee cleric.

Hell, you could do almost anything with those stats and be badass on it. You can't however, and I will repeat myself, do every cleric role. Even if you got 6 18s, it would still be impossible to do it.

Pick something up, like Buffer or Meleer or even heal bot (not advised) and focus on it. Them choose a close seccondary role, like being a Meleer that helps healing the party. Your party will thank you.

Talking about'em, let them fulfill other roles. If there is a Pally in your group, help him being his partner in melee and ask for his help while healing everybody (lay on hands, although crappy, can help a lot). Let the rogue be the skillmonkey and the wizard will be the one doing everything else.

My OP? Reroll is a bad option right now.

xarumitzu
2010-01-14, 12:43 PM
No, do not rerol!

This character has awesome stats!!!

Do not try to excell everywhere. Do not try to do everything. No class can, no matter the stats they have.

Your Cleric has awesome stats. Two 17s? C'mon, you have everything you ever wanted. Don't risk a stream of 11s just to get rid of a 7. Does not worth it.

That 7 is your charisma. Period. The other stats can go anywhere depending on what role you want to fill. A 17 to Str and another to Wis coupled with a 15 or 14 to con nets you an excellent melee cleric.

Hell, you could do almost anything with those stats and be badass on it. You can't however, and I will repeat myself, do every cleric role. Even if you got 6 18s, it would still be impossible to do it.

Pick something up, like Buffer or Meleer or even heal bot (not advised) and focus on it. Them choose a close seccondary role, like being a Meleer that helps healing the party. Your party will thank you.

Talking about'em, let them fulfill other roles. If there is a Pally in your group, help him being his partner in melee and ask for his help while healing everybody (lay on hands, although crappy, can help a lot). Let the rogue be the skillmonkey and the wizard will be the one doing everything else.

My OP? Reroll is a bad option right now.

Check PM inbox :smallsmile:

EDIT: I'm not going to re-roll. I'll work this out and make it work.