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A Ladder
2010-01-13, 09:00 PM
Ok, thumbing through some books i noticed something that would be pretty cool. But then after reading more and more into it, I found that it was so OP that it would break any game...

Here we go.

2 levels of Binder, 1 level of Warlock.

According to Tome of Magic the Binder gets a will save of +3. and of course pick up the pact with Naberius for the ability damage healing.

As a Warlock (Complete Arcane) at you have a will save of +2. Pick up the invocation Summon Swarm.

This allows the character (assuming 15 Int and Cha) to be able to gain the feat from Book of Vile Darkness called Dark Speech.


DARK SPEECH [VILE]
The character learns a smattering of the language of truly
dark power.
Prerequisite: Base Will save bonus +5, Int 15, Cha 15.
Benefit: The character can use the Dark Speech to bring
loathing and fear to others, to help cast evil spells and create
evil magic items, and to weaken physical objects (see Dark
Speech in Chapter 2)

Dark speech has this nifty cool ability called Dark Unity

Dark Unity: The words of the Dark Speech can create a
hivemind. Up to one hundred vermin or animals (none of
which can have more than 1 HD) form an evil hivemind, as
described in the Hivemind section below. The united consciousness
of the creatures will take one command from the
Dark Speech speaker, as if from the suggestion spell. Pulling
creatures under the sway of evil is draining to the speaker,
dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage each time words
of dark unity are uttered.

combine Dark Unity with your warlock invocation of summon swarm:
a swarm of bats to be specific (diminutive creatures).

here's what the Monster Manual says about swarms:


A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists
of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures.
now this is where stuff goes CRAZY!!!!



If at least 50 vermin or animals of the same species are
arranged so that no one individual is more than 10 feet
from another individual, the hivemind may come into
effect. All the creatures operate with an Intelligence of 5,
even if they previously had no Intelligence score (as with
vermin). The creaturesí Intelligence score increases by +1
for every additional 20 individuals (beyond the first 50) in
the hivemind, up to an Intelligence of 10 for a hivemind of
150 creatures. Beyond the 150-creature threshold, Intelligence
increases by +1 for every 50 additional individuals.Thus, a swarm of 500 rats would have a hivemind Intelligence
of 17. For every point of Intelligence bonus possessed
by the hivemind, award each individual creature one
feat and 1 skill point per Hit Die. Intelligence-based skill
bonuses increase accordingly. So the 500 rats in the swarm
(Int 17, +3 bonus) would each have 3 extra skill points and
three feats. In this case, they gain a +3 bonus on Hide
checks and the feats Alertness, Skill Focus (Move Silently),
andWeapon Focus (bite).
The increase to Intelligence gained for every creature in
the hivemind over 50 also applies to Charisma. So, a hivemind
of 500 rats (normal Charisma score 2) has a Charisma
score of 14.
If the hivemind attains a Charisma score of 18 or higher,
it gains the ability to cast spells as a sorcerer. For every point
of Charisma over 17, the hivemind has one level of sorcerer.
A hivemind of 1,000 rats has a Charisma of 22, so it would
cast spells as a 5th-level sorcerer, for example. The hivemind has six cantrips, eight 1st-level spells, and six 2nd-level spells each day. Any single creature can cast one of the hivemindís spells, but those spell slots
are then lost to other creatures in the hivemind.
Creatures in a hivemind have no need for somatic or material components, and
their squeaks, screeches, or clicks serve as verbal components.

WHAT THE WHAT!!!!???!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!!!!

so much charisma with 5,000 flying creatures under your control!!!!

here's the math:

Int of 10 with 150 creatures, +1 for every 50 creatures left (5,000 - 150 = 4850/50 = 97) so a creature with 107 Int. (+48 bonus, 48 feats, and 48 extra skill points)
Now for Charisma: (5,000/50 = 100, 4 (base charisma of bat swarm) + 100 = 104) so a creature with 104 charisma. (+47 bonus). (104 - 17 = 87 levels of sorcerer).
I don't feel like telling you how powerful a lvl 87 sorcerer with a 104 charisma and 48 feats is going to be, but i think you get the picture.

Oh yeah, one more thing: if you thought that it might get out of control
because of the player's handbook spell

The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel.
the Dark Unity ability allows you to use one suggestion (think carefully here... something along the lines of "I'm your best friend", "they hate you, i don't" comes to mind....)
and don't forget that it lasts as long as you concentrate (complete arcane)
SUMMON SWARM
Least; 2nd
You can use summon swarm as the
spell with this invocation. Unlike the
spell, this invocation has a duration of
concentration instead of concentration
+ 2 rounds.

boom, my level 3 can beat up your level 3... thoughts?

disclaimer: this is my poo attempt at a thought excercise inspired by Pun-Pun. no i do not claim equality with the amount of thought that went into that experiement, but i thought you all would enjoy... DO NOT USE THIS BUILD IN ANY GAME, it won't be fun..

another disclaimer... i think you might have to wait till 6th level actually... but still.. hecka good.

Mongoose87
2010-01-13, 09:03 PM
My head aspolde.

DragoonWraith
2010-01-13, 09:07 PM
Seeing as Pun-Pun can happen at level 1, should he ever bother to gain a couple of levels, I'm pretty sure he'd have no trouble with a level 87 Sorcerer with 104 charisma and 48 bonus feats. That said, this is pretty awesome.

Studoku
2010-01-13, 09:11 PM
Dark Unity: The words of the Dark Speech can create a
hivemind. Up to one hundred vermin or animals (none of
which can have more than 1 HD) form an evil hivemind, as
described in the Hivemind section below. The united consciousness
of the creatures will take one command from the
Dark Speech speaker, as if from the suggestion spell. Pulling
creatures under the sway of evil is draining to the speaker,
dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage each time words
of dark unity are uttered.
Dark unity can't make a hive mind of more than 100 of the summoned creatures. Sorry.

Duke of URL
2010-01-13, 09:12 PM
Does Dark Speech/Dark Unity take an action? If so, you lose concentration on the swarm and the invocation version of summon swarm goes away as soon as concentration is broken.

Otherwise, nifty loophole you found!

Zincorium
2010-01-13, 09:14 PM
I'm pretty sure this was already created and named by the CharOP boards on wotc's site back before Gleemax took over. I'll see if I can find it and whether they did anything more with it.

Raging Gene Ray
2010-01-13, 09:16 PM
It says that Dark Unity only works for swarms of UP TO 100 creatures. You're 4900 bats over the limit.

Oh, and Ninja'd.

Signmaker
2010-01-13, 09:17 PM
1500,5000>100, yes?

A Ladder
2010-01-13, 09:21 PM
damnit. i suck...

Signmaker
2010-01-13, 09:22 PM
damnit. i suck...

Happens to the best of us, don't worry about it.

flabort
2010-01-13, 09:35 PM
Well, if you don't point out up to to your DM, and he misses it, your fine.

Your the Fr****ng Bat-Man!
And your bats are stronger than you.

You couldn't use Empower Spell on Dark Unity, could you? 'cause then atleast you'd have up to 150, rather than up to 100...

Edit: penta ninja'd!

Glimbur
2010-01-13, 10:15 PM
It's not like it's that hard to find 100 rats... this just slows the trick down.

RS14
2010-01-13, 10:29 PM
This is still pretty cool, even if it doesn't work. :smallbiggrin:

DragoonWraith
2010-01-13, 10:42 PM
I'd noticed that limit but thought the comments about 150 rats or whatever were from the rules text, so I figured there was some ambiguity to it. What parts of the OP are rules text and what parts aren't?

A Ladder
2010-01-13, 11:06 PM
I'd noticed that limit but thought the comments about 150 rats or whatever were from the rules text, so I figured there was some ambiguity to it. What parts of the OP are rules text and what parts aren't?

all quotes are rule text. (PDFs FTW)

Flickerdart
2010-01-13, 11:19 PM
Well, if you don't point out up to to your DM, and he misses it, your fine.

Your the Fr****ng Bat-Man!
And your bats are stronger than you.

You couldn't use Empower Spell on Dark Unity, could you? 'cause then atleast you'd have up to 150, rather than up to 100...

Edit: penta ninja'd!
Nope, Empower only affects variables.


It's not like it's that hard to find 100 rats... this just slows the trick down.
100 rats don't get the CHA bonuses necessary for sorcery,

golentan
2010-01-13, 11:28 PM
Is there then a way to combine hiveminds though?

kentma57
2010-01-13, 11:33 PM
Just find/make a group of hivemind acceptable creatures with realy high cha...

Coidzor
2010-01-13, 11:41 PM
Or is it that the hivemind automatically can draw additional such creatures into it if they're within 10 feet?

Because mechanically this allows for hiveminds larger than 150.

Maybe subsequent dark unity uses can be used to add to the hivemind, up to 100 creatures at a time?

DragoonWraith
2010-01-13, 11:45 PM
all quotes are rule text. (PDFs FTW)
OK, but only the second one is from Dark Unity, the bits about hive minds are generic Swarm rules? That's the bit I'd missed; I thought that was part of the Dark Unity rules, which is why I thought there was ambiguity.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-01-14, 12:54 AM
Hive minds have been done. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5943.0)

sonofzeal
2010-01-14, 01:00 AM
Hive minds have been done. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5943.0)
H.I.V.E. is legendary, but I've never actually seen the thread itself before. Thanks!

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-14, 01:14 AM
while a swarm is composed of a thousand or more vermin/animals/etc.. doesn't it only count as one creature by game rules?

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-14, 01:24 AM
Use the skill trick Swift Concentration.

Doc Roc
2010-01-14, 01:30 AM
Known trick on old gleemax. I cordially congratulate you.

A Ladder
2010-01-14, 01:46 AM
OK, but only the second one is from Dark Unity, the bits about hive minds are generic Swarm rules? That's the bit I'd missed; I thought that was part of the Dark Unity rules, which is why I thought there was ambiguity.

the later part is about hivemind rules, totally seperate from the Dark Unity rules. which i must have missed in my zeal to learn about hiveminds.

Zaq
2010-01-14, 02:53 AM
...I just noticed that the version of Dark Speech in Fiendish Codex I has no such limitation on the number of creatures in the hivemind. Since FCI is (rather significantly) newer than BoVD...

Melamoto
2010-01-14, 12:23 PM
You guys are thinking too small. Why make a hivemind from 100 rats when you could instead use housecats? Killing 100s of commoners everywhere. A dog is fine too.

A Ladder
2010-01-14, 12:53 PM
...I just noticed that the version of Dark Speech in Fiendish Codex I has no such limitation on the number of creatures in the hivemind. Since FCI is (rather significantly) newer than BoVD...

perfect.... muahahahahhahaha!!!

Andras
2010-01-14, 01:32 PM
perfect.... muahahahahhahaha!!!

Additionally, the text you quoted would suggest that the limit is over 100:


So, a hivemind
of 500 rats (normal Charisma score 2) has a Charisma
score of 14.

That's a pretty cool trick.

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 01:36 PM
Additionally, the text you quoted would suggest that the limit is over 100:



That's a pretty cool trick.
The limit on Dark Speech is 100, there is however no limit on "naturally formed" hive minds.

flabort
2010-01-14, 10:20 PM
Nope, Empower only affects variables.
The rules say UP TO 100. there for, this may be less than 100. because a variable is not a set number (it's not 100, 99, 98, ect., it's a number within that range), you can prove it to be a number.

a variable doesn't have to be determined by a dice roll.... [/clever]

Devils_Advocate
2010-01-15, 04:34 PM
Cranium rats naturally function like this, by the way. A swarm becomes exponentially more dangerous the more rats it has in it, essentially functioning as a sorcerer or psion whose level is directly proportionate to the number of rats. Two swarms can join together to make a bigger swarm.

Separately enthralling and then joining together small groups of cranium rats would probably be considerably easier than establishing mental control over a large group that you first encountered as a single swarm. Presumably the joined swarm would remain under your control. Not that rounding up little groups of cranium rats would be easy, since to find them you'd probably have to go into areas where you might also encounter large swarms, which would be understandably upset about what you're doing.

But it is theoretically doable, because their hive mind is in fact susceptible to mind-effecting thingies.


I just noticed that the version of Dark Speech in Fiendish Codex I has no such limitation on the number of creatures in the hivemind.
The FC1 doesn't describe the evil hiveminds of the BoVD, however. So presumably that version of the feat doesn't function according to those rules.