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The Deej
2010-01-13, 09:47 PM
So, a guy in my group is rather skilled at powergaming, and he once shared an idea to be immune to damage. I made this build as a variation on that.

race: half-dragon human (acid or fire)

wu jen 6/renegade mastermaker 10/warforged juggernaut 2

feats:
H: toughness
1: troll-blooded
3: craft wondrous item
6: craft magic arms and armor
9: <open slot>
12: power attack
15: improved bull rush
*B: adamantine body
18: <open slot>

Kinda convoluted to get there, but the idea is that troll-blooded grants regeneration. I'm not sure of the exact wording, but i'm pretty sure all damage except for fire and acid are converted to non-lethal. Half-dragon grants immunity to one, immunity to the other can be obtained easily via other means (such as a spell). That means that all other sources of damage are converted to non-lethal. The capstone of renegade mastermaker allows the build to qualify for warforged juggernaut--the second level of which grants immunity to non-lethal damage. All damage dealt to you is converted to non-lethal, which you are now immune to. Congratulations. You are now immune to damage.

I chose Wu Jen for the base class so you can clone yourself via Body outside Body and be a small nigh-unkillable army unto yourself.

some other random immunities granted by this build:
criticals
poison
sleep
paralysis
disease
nausea
fatigue
exhaustion
energy drain

comments?

Zaq
2010-01-13, 09:50 PM
Trollbane (a cheap alchemical item in Dungeonscape) will ruin your day, as will simple [Death] effects, but yeah, this is the skeleton on which the vanilla IKEA Tarrasque is hung.

FishAreWet
2010-01-13, 09:50 PM
Bone Knight is a much less convoluted way to do it.

unre9istered
2010-01-13, 09:55 PM
So, a guy in my group is rather skilled at powergaming, and he once shared an idea to be immune to damage. I made this build as a variation on that.

race: half-dragon human (acid or fire)

wu jen 6/renegade mastermaker 10/warforged juggernaut 2



The things I bolded are incompatable as far as I know. Warforged Juggernaut requires you to be warforged. I've never heard of renegade mastermaker. Does that somehow make you a warforged?

EDIT: Now I feel foolish, I should have finished reading...

Pyro_Azer
2010-01-13, 10:04 PM
May I present to you Lord_of_Procrastination's twice betrayer of shar who is immune to everything in D&D:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871166/New_Build_and_Challenge:_The_Twice-Betrayer_of_Shar

The Deej
2010-01-13, 10:06 PM
I imagined there had to be a simpler way to do it, but an interesting quirk I thought of once regarding Body Outside Body and Renegade Mastermaker is that your battlefist is made +3 via class feature. Body Outside Body gives the clones nonmagical versions of your gear, but they have all of your class features. So if the RM's battlefist is made +3 via class feature, not to mention the fact that the battlefist itself could technically be considered solely a class feature, and not gear. Would that circumvent that line of the spell?

If so, that means that you could spawn an army of loyal warriors with +3 weapons, heavy armor, and immunity to damage.

You gotta admit that that's pretty dangerous.

Glimbur
2010-01-13, 10:11 PM
There are ways of killing that... Searing Spell makes the fire damage stick, Vile damage might interact weirdly with regeneration, and the aforementioned Death effects would work. Disintegrate might also ruin your day, depending on how exactly Troll Blooded works.

The Deej
2010-01-13, 10:16 PM
Yeah, I know it's not indestructible, just really, really tough. If the only solution to kill it is magical means though, it can just keep an AMF up. The immunity to damage is non-magical in nature.

JaronK
2010-01-13, 10:16 PM
A Learnen Lumi (4HD, 6LA) is immune to everything except disintegrate, if you want a less complex way to do this.

JaronK

Zaq
2010-01-13, 10:18 PM
...Or Trollbane, which is nonmagical, costs 90 GP, and requires no special knowledge to use. Sure, you need a lot of it, but that's why you coat arrows with it.

That's not to say it isn't fun. Just saying that yeah, counters exist.

Signmaker
2010-01-13, 10:18 PM
Yeah, I know it's not indestructible, just really, really tough. If the only solution to kill it is magical means though, it can just keep an AMF up. The immunity to damage is non-magical in nature.

Not really. There are plenty of ways to bypass an AMF.

FishAreWet
2010-01-13, 10:26 PM
A Learnen Lumi (4HD, 6LA) is immune to everything except disintegrate, if you want a less complex way to do this.

Where is Learnen? And what's so special about a Lumi?



May I present to you Lord_of_Procrastination's twice betrayer of shar who is immune to everything in D&D:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871166/New_Build_and_Challenge:_The_Twice-Betrayer_of_Shar

It was near invincible when created, but nowadays there are many way's to kill it. Master Spellthief Disjunctions, IHS, Invoke Magic...

JeminiZero
2010-01-13, 10:30 PM
The link in my signature might interest you.

But otherwise, you lack immunity to abilty damage and drain, which are relatively common attacks used by monsters (such as shadows and allips). You lack immunity to mind affecting so Fey and Wizards can dominate you. You are still vulnerable to polymorph effects (baleful polymorph and petrification). And there are the various exotic methods of death (half illithid brain eating insta-kill attack).

Jack_Simth
2010-01-13, 10:32 PM
May I present to you Lord_of_Procrastination's twice betrayer of shar who is immune to everything in D&D:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871166/New_Build_and_Challenge:_The_Twice-Betrayer_of_Shar

Ah, there we go. Cleric-20, Initiate of Mystra, using Miracle to duplicate Flesh to Stone. Sure, it may take a few castings to get through both SR and saves, but once the twice-betrayer is stoned, you simply wait out the buffs duration (24 hours or so), break the twice-betrayer into little bitty pices, then use Miracle for Stone to Flesh. And watch the twice-betrayer die, as it's not immune to transmutation. A couple of Greater Dispels for if the twice-betrayer brings up something to let it ignore Transmutations. This counter was available at the same time the twice-betrayer was created, as it's Core + one ... and that one is in the twice-betrayer's build.

Signmaker
2010-01-13, 10:41 PM
Ah, there we go. Cleric-20, Initiate of Mystra, using Miracle to duplicate Flesh to Stone. Sure, it may take a few castings to get through both SR and saves, but once the twice-betrayer is stoned, you simply wait out the buffs duration (24 hours or so), break the twice-betrayer into little bitty pices, then use Miracle for Stone to Flesh. And watch the twice-betrayer die, as it's not immune to transmutation. A couple of Greater Dispels for if the twice-betrayer brings up something to let it ignore Transmutations. This counter was available at the same time the twice-betrayer was created, as it's Core + one ... and that one is in the twice-betrayer's build.

And, what, the antimagic field sits by and lets all this happen?

taltamir
2010-01-13, 10:43 PM
ok so so far:
1. Searing spell is a metamagic that makes fire spells do 1/2 their listed damage to opponent who are immune to fire, and do full damage to anyone who has fire resistance. AMF can counter that
2. Disintegrate affects him normally. AMF
3. can some clarify trollbane?
4. can someone clarify vile damage?

Signmaker
2010-01-13, 10:44 PM
ok so so far:
1. Searing spell is a metamagic that makes fire spells do 1/2 their listed damage to opponent who are immune to fire, and do full damage to anyone who has fire resistance. AMF can counter that
2. Disintegrate affects him normally. AMF
3. can some clarify trollbane?
4. can someone clarify vile damage?

Trollbane is a perfectly viable mundane item which ignores the troll's ability to do his stuff. Hardly anyone uses it due to action economy, however.

Cuaqchi
2010-01-13, 10:51 PM
AFAIK Trollbane is an alchemical substance; hence non magical, that can be applied to a weapon or grouping of ammunition that renders it immune to the effects of regeneration.

Vile damage is a special type of damage associated with evil clerics and creatures that must first be 'blessed' (Not neccessarily the spell) before it can be healed. Even Regeration and Fast Healing do not heal vile damage unless the person is in an area that negates the effect like certai Hallowed churches.

As a result I would see Vile damage as its own stacking up as incurable nonlethal damage unless trollbane was applied to the weapon in question. This however would be moot unless it was the DM (Which it normally is) using the weapon as players rarely have to worry about a foe healing and coming after them again.

BenTheJester
2010-01-13, 10:53 PM
Not really. There are plenty of ways to bypass an AMF.

Such as?
rabblerabble

herrhauptmann
2010-01-13, 10:55 PM
The link in my signature might interest you.

But otherwise, you lack immunity to abilty damage and drain, which are relatively common attacks used by monsters (such as shadows and allips). You lack immunity to mind affecting so Fey and Wizards can dominate you. You are still vulnerable to polymorph effects (baleful polymorph and petrification). And there are the various exotic methods of death (half illithid brain eating insta-kill attack).

He can get 'soulfire' armor from the BoED. It makes you immune to death effects, and certain other negative energy things. Still screwed on regular ability damage though.

JeminiZero
2010-01-13, 11:25 PM
1. Searing spell is a metamagic that makes fire spells do 1/2 their listed damage to opponent who are immune to fire, and do full damage to anyone who has fire resistance. AMF can counter that


AMF does not work on instantaneous conjuration spells, most notably the famed Orb of X series. So a Searing Orb of Fire will ignore AMF and still deal half damage against fire immune creatures. Also see: Emperor Tippy's Cindy


Such as?

Aside from instantaneous conjuration (and its psionic equivalent) mentioned above, Initiate of Mystra feat lets you cast in an AMF so long as you succeeds a reasonably easy caster level check.

Also, his plan was to get one immunity (fire and acid) via half dragon and the other via spell. Which means running around in an AMF may render him vulnerable to one elemental damage (for which there are mundane sources, either flasks of alchemical fire or acid).


He can get 'soulfire' armor from the BoED. It makes you immune to death effects, and certain other negative energy things. Still screwed on regular ability damage though.

Perhaps, but magical equipment and spells seem to be incompatible with his plan for running around in an AMF.

FishAreWet
2010-01-13, 11:30 PM
AMF does not work on instantaneous conjuration spells, most notably the famed Orb of X series.

uhhh... yeah it does.

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-13, 11:34 PM
uhhh... yeah it does.Check again; instantaneous conjurations are specifically exempted from antimagic field's effects, although you probably can't cast them inside the field.

"(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)"

Alex112524
2010-01-14, 12:19 AM
"(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)"

Basically, Caster uses Searing Spell Orb of Fire outside of AMF, fire immune creature inside AMF still takes half damage from the spell.

BobVosh
2010-01-14, 12:33 AM
And, what, the antimagic field sits by and lets all this happen?

Yes. Initiate of Mystra. Lets you cast in AMF.

Such as?

See above. Also dysjunction, rod of negation, rod of absorption, similar effects, instantaneous conjurations, summon X spells with good SR. I'm sure there are lots more as I don't stray far from core much these days.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-01-14, 12:42 AM
Where is Learnen? And what's so special about a Lumi?

Lernean is in Savage Species; your head(s) grow back twice over if severed and you can only be killed by damage via disintegrate or cutting off your head(s) and cauterizing the stump with fire or acid before they grow back. Lumi are a race of creatures with floating, glowing heads who are thus immune to having their heads cut off, thus you can't damage a Lernean Lumi except via disintegrate.

Tokiko Mima
2010-01-14, 01:18 AM
One way to become invincible is have someone cast Flesh to Stone > Rock to Mud > Purify Food and Drink > then pour you into the ocean. Now even if they blow up the planet, you'd still survive as ice particles in space. The only way you could die without the huge expense of destroying every single water molecule is to push the planet into a sun and let it's fusion reaction take care of you.

...of course, it does have the downside of hurting you just a little bit everytime someone disjunction-ed water. And it would make your friends queasy whenever they took a drink of water and someone whispered 'S/He's inside you now...'

Zaq
2010-01-14, 01:29 AM
One way to become invincible is have someone cast Flesh to Stone > Rock to Mud > Purify Food and Drink > then pour you into the ocean. Now even if they blow up the planet, you'd still survive as ice particles in space. The only way you could die without the huge expense of destroying every single water molecule is to push the planet into a sun and let it's fusion reaction take care of you.

...of course, it does have the downside of hurting you just a little bit everytime someone disjunction-ed water. And it would make your friends queasy whenever they took a drink of water and someone whispered 'S/He's inside you now...'

I'm pretty sure that if we fit the sandwich trick in there somewhere, you can remain sentient the whole while. I think.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-01-14, 01:53 AM
Hellfire Warlock will also ruin your day, as the damage dealt is Hellfire, which counts as fire damage, but hotter, so it bypasses Fire immunities.

taltamir
2010-01-14, 03:03 AM
One way to become invincible is have someone cast Flesh to Stone > Rock to Mud > Purify Food and Drink > then pour you into the ocean. Now even if they blow up the planet, you'd still survive as ice particles in space. The only way you could die without the huge expense of destroying every single water molecule is to push the planet into a sun and let it's fusion reaction take care of you.

...of course, it does have the downside of hurting you just a little bit everytime someone disjunction-ed water. And it would make your friends queasy whenever they took a drink of water and someone whispered 'S/He's inside you now...'

the biggest problem is, that while alive, you are incapable of doing anything. You are essentially in stasis... it is not different then Imprisonment.
this is something you do to someone else to prevent his resurrection, or the DM does to you if you are stupid enough to cast Suicide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)

Eldariel
2010-01-14, 03:27 AM
Ah, there we go. Cleric-20, Initiate of Mystra, using Miracle to duplicate Flesh to Stone. Sure, it may take a few castings to get through both SR and saves, but once the twice-betrayer is stoned, you simply wait out the buffs duration (24 hours or so), break the twice-betrayer into little bitty pices, then use Miracle for Stone to Flesh. And watch the twice-betrayer die, as it's not immune to transmutation. A couple of Greater Dispels for if the twice-betrayer brings up something to let it ignore Transmutations. This counter was available at the same time the twice-betrayer was created, as it's Core + one ... and that one is in the twice-betrayer's build.

Yeah, but Initiate of Mystra was specifically exempted as an option since that'd effectively be a mirror match; that build effectively comes down to an Initiate of Mystra-build and another Initiate of Mystra-build can do the exact same crap.

Incantatrix was suggested though, by reshaping the AMF with Metamagic Effect, or stealing it and dismissing it and so on. It's no surprise the most broken things in D&D counter the most broken things in D&D.

JaronK
2010-01-14, 04:45 AM
Where is Learnen? And what's so special about a Lumi?

Learnean, from Savage Species, is a variant of the multiheaded template that makes it so you can only be killed by death effects, disintegration, and having your head chopped off. Lumi are from MM3 and are a race of floating head people that are specifically immune to having their heads chopped off as well as death effects.

It's actually pretty straight forward, which is nice. From there, get immunity to disintegrate, and you're golden (literally, since the Lumi are golden and glowing). The LA and HD are quite high so you can't do much (they're 4HD, 6LA) but you are pretty much invincible.

JaronK

Tokiko Mima
2010-01-14, 05:24 AM
the biggest problem is, that while alive, you are incapable of doing anything. You are essentially in stasis... it is not different then Imprisonment.
this is something you do to someone else to prevent his resurrection, or the DM does to you if you are stupid enough to cast Suicide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)

Well, I've always found the biggest problem with invincible immortality is what you do with your now nigh infinite time. This solves the problem by letting you do nothing at all, existing in a state so close to death it might as well be death. At least you aren't going mad or becoming bored with everything, right?

2xMachina
2010-01-14, 08:46 AM
Hmm, about being bored... Dying and becoming a petitioner pretty much gives you immortality, normally, provided no one goes and kill you (the dead don't die of old age).

Cyclocone
2010-01-14, 09:15 AM
Just Mindrape yourself to always be happy and entertained.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-14, 09:53 AM
Yeah, I know it's not indestructible, just really, really tough. If the only solution to kill it is magical means though, it can just keep an AMF up. The immunity to damage is non-magical in nature.

Initiate of Mystria.

Alternately, for your casters not prepared to build to kill it, our beloved orbs will do the job. If you use fire anyhow, you probably took searing spell because...why not?

Starbuck_II
2010-01-14, 10:16 AM
Learnean, from Savage Species, is a variant of the multiheaded template that makes it so you can only be killed by death effects, disintegration, and having your head chopped off. Lumi are from MM3 and are a race of floating head people that are specifically immune to having their heads chopped off as well as death effects.

It's actually pretty straight forward, which is nice. From there, get immunity to disintegrate, and you're golden (literally, since the Lumi are golden and glowing). The LA and HD are quite high so you can't do much (they're 4HD, 6LA) but you are pretty much invincible.

JaronK

No, Lumi are immune only to Vorpal weapons it says. You can still attack the heads to sunder them the regular way (they have your total hps dvided up among the original heads).
So a L. Lumi with 100 hps has 50 hps in each head. Granted the enemy must be a sunder expert to kill you.
Area of effects will hit you (but only fire/acid are worries), but not targeted spells (unless they deal slashing damage).

As long as you don't get hit with fire/acid after losing a head, 2 new ones grow out of it.

Tokiko Mima
2010-01-14, 05:44 PM
Just Mindrape yourself to always be happy and entertained.

Wouldn't that imply consent?

JaronK
2010-01-14, 05:55 PM
No, Lumi are immune only to Vorpal weapons it says. You can still attack the heads to sunder them the regular way (they have your total hps dvided up among the original heads).

From the Lerneaen Template:


These multiheaded creatures have bodies that are immune to attack (but see below). The only way to slay a Lernaean creature is to sever all its heads.

So you can't just attack the head, you have to sever it. Then, from the multiheaded template:


Severing a head requires hitting the creature's neck (same AC as creature) with a slashing weapon and dealing damage equal to the multiheaded creature's original hit point total divided by the original number of heads.

Now from Lumi:


It is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects (such as from inflict spells or chill touch)... a Lumi's head naturally floats a few inches above its shoulders... Lumi are immune to the decapitation power of a vorpal weapon. They may not be strangled and are immune to suffocation.

So Lerneaen says you have to sever the head (not just attack the head) and that means targetting the neck. Lumi don't have necks to target at all. Thus, they're immune. The only opening is found in the Lerneaen template, when it says "spells such as" and lists a bunch of spells, most of which the Lumi are immune to but they're not immune to disintegrate. The "such as" part might make something happen since the DM could then add in a few more, but it's pretty unclear which ones would work. Most likely wouldn't as they can't possibly target the neck (which is what you have to hit to take out the head). And death effects are right out.

JaronK

Starbuck_II
2010-01-14, 06:00 PM
I guess you are right... they are immune to everything.

So beside disintegrate, what works? Obviously, non- death effect.

Any other spells?

taltamir
2010-01-14, 06:03 PM
Wouldn't that imply consent?

mindrape is a name of spell that lets you know everything the subject knows and then alter someone's memories and personality to whatever you want.

JaronK
2010-01-14, 06:16 PM
I guess you are right... they are immune to everything.

So beside disintegrate, what works? Obviously, non- death effect.

Any other spells?

"Spells such as" = DM Fiat. But really, since it says other spells should be able damage the heads to do anything and they can't (since damaging the heads actually means damaging necks), or that they should be death effects, nothing else should be able to kill you. However, you could still be summoned with Planar Binding (ouch!), Gated to another planes, banished, force caged, imprisoned, and otherwise screwed with. You can't be blinded or hit with light based spells, but debuffs still work fine. So while they can't take you out, they can still take you out of the fight. And with just 4 racial HD at level 10, you're WAY behind on class abilities, so you can't actually DO all that much. You're just hard to kill.

Considering you get basically perfect two weapon fighting, there's something to be said for just running around as a Warblade or something, because at least that also gives Iron Heart Surge to get you out of some of the nasty stuff people can do to you. Maybe you might want the Shadow Template too so you can plane shift yourself to the plane of Shadows after the DM once again has a spellcaster gate you to who knows where. That way you can avoid having every Wizard of sufficient level able to just Planar Bind you with a Dimensional Anchor... Iron Heart Surge out and then Plane Shift away. Still really annoying though.

JaronK

Jack_Simth
2010-01-14, 06:18 PM
mindrape is a name of spell that lets you know everything the subject knows and then alter someone's memories and personality to whatever you want.
You give appearances of having missed the joke.


Yeah, but Initiate of Mystra was specifically exempted as an option since that'd effectively be a mirror match; that build effectively comes down to an Initiate of Mystra-build and another Initiate of Mystra-build can do the exact same crap.

Incantatrix was suggested though, by reshaping the AMF with Metamagic Effect, or stealing it and dismissing it and so on. It's no surprise the most broken things in D&D counter the most broken things in D&D.

Okay. So we do something else - also Core:
Wizard-15/Archmage-5, with:
Quicken Spell
Spell Power*5
Orange Prism Ioun Stone
Caster level 26
Disjunction: 1% per caster level (26%) of destroying an AMF. This caster could have, say, five of these without any stretch at all.
Quicken: Follow up with a Save-or-no-actions spell of your choice that will bypass the class/item/race resistances and immunities (if the AMF goes down, so do all the buffs).
After "Save-or" spell takes effect: Cast whatever spells you like to kill the now-vulnerable Twice-Betrayer (as long as it will also bypass the race/item/class resistances and immunities).

Then it's just a matter of playing the odds, and surviving whatever the twice-betrayer throws at you while you're throwing around Disjunctions hoping for that 1 in 4 chance to crop up on your five or six attempts. Pure Core. Not a "Guaranteed Win" by any means, but feasible.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-14, 06:21 PM
Considering you get basically perfect two weapon fighting, there's something to be said for just running around as a Warblade or something, because at least that also gives Iron Heart Surge to get you out of some of the nasty stuff people can do to you. Maybe you might want the Shadow Template too so you can plane shift yourself to the plane of Shadows after the DM once again has a spellcaster gate you to who knows where. That way you can avoid having every Wizard of sufficient level able to just Planar Bind you with a Dimensional Anchor... Iron Heart Surge out and then Plane Shift away. Still really annoying though.

JaronK

Can't you Iron Heart Surge away the Planeshift or the Calling of Planar Binding? Only Gate makes you want to help them after all.

Signmaker
2010-01-14, 06:21 PM
I thought TBoS had a handful of simultaneous AMF/APF effects going, rendering disjunction-spamming difficult due to overlap?

JaronK
2010-01-14, 06:34 PM
Can't you Iron Heart Surge away the Planeshift or the Calling of Planar Binding? Only Gate makes you want to help them after all.

You can't IHS the Planeshift or the calling (as far as I can tell... it's not a condition) but you can get rid of the Magic Circle that's holding you in or the Dimensional Anchor or all parts of the Planar Binding after pulled in. Also, Moment of Perfect Mind should help you resist the Planar Binding in the first place. This is why Warblade is a darn nice idea for a Lerneaen Lumi. If you had the Shadow Template, you could then Plane Shift yourself back to the Plane of Shadows to escape... otherwise you've been moved to whereever you now are. With Gate, enemy casters could theoretically just open a gate underneath you (maybe) and chuck you to whereever. Or they could open a gate and have some big creature grapple you through it.

Ur Priest is another option of course. You could get into it after one level of something else (you'll need a rank in Knowledge Religion and Spellcraft). That would actually grant 9th level spells, giving you some nice stuff... but no IHS, and Iron Heart Surge is pretty key for a race that can only be screwed by status effects and teleporting. Still, something like Factotum 1/Ur Priest 9 would be nice, giving you the skills you need. There might even be a way to make a reflavored RKV work, but I'm not sure.

JaronK

Radiun
2010-01-14, 06:38 PM
Sphere of Annihilation might still ruin your day, but I think there's a PRC for that

Eldariel
2010-01-14, 07:02 PM
Okay. So we do something else - also Core:
Wizard-15/Archmage-5, with:
Quicken Spell
Spell Power*5
Orange Prism Ioun Stone
Caster level 26
Disjunction: 1% per caster level (26%) of destroying an AMF. This caster could have, say, five of these without any stretch at all.
Quicken: Follow up with a Save-or-no-actions spell of your choice that will bypass the class/item/race resistances and immunities (if the AMF goes down, so do all the buffs).
After "Save-or" spell takes effect: Cast whatever spells you like to kill the now-vulnerable Twice-Betrayer (as long as it will also bypass the race/item/class resistances and immunities).

Then it's just a matter of playing the odds, and surviving whatever the twice-betrayer throws at you while you're throwing around Disjunctions hoping for that 1 in 4 chance to crop up on your five or six attempts. Pure Core. Not a "Guaranteed Win" by any means, but feasible.

You're giving him way too little credit. Of course he's impervious to simple plans of attack. Spell Power may only be taken once, but since Red Wizard is core and also works, I'll just ignore that. You can actually reach 45% chance to Disjunction it with relative ease; Circle Magic (with Simulacrums) + Beads of Karma (UMDd) + Orange Prism Ioun Stone. Arguably Archmage could make that 46%.

However, there are multiple of Contingent AMF "items" (as per Craft Contingent Spell) that trigger one-at-a-time immediately when the AMF fails. So even if all your 7-8 Disjunctions succeed, he's still under AMF. Now, if you manage 44 Int (I can only get to 41 with little work; not saying it's impossible though) and acquire Ring of Wizardy IX, you could get ~16 Disjunctions per day, but there's an effectively uncapped number of Contingent AMFs on the character (well, 20 I guess, since that's the HD limit; they're all Twinned though) so that's going to fall shy. Brute force solution is unlike to work unless you use Tainted Scholar.


From Core, I'd probably use Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10/Loremaster 1/Archmage 4. That's the most powerful Wizard I can think of in Core, but I don't think it's cutting the mustard. You really want some broken stuff of your own like Incantatrix, Hathran, Halruaan Elder or similars.

jindra34
2010-01-14, 07:11 PM
I would also like to point out that regeneration is far from absolute as once you take enough non-lethal damage you (1) are rendered unconcious and (2) any over flow starts to go into regular hit points. Unless you are the Big T. getting hit often enough and hard enough will kill you.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-14, 07:15 PM
I would also like to point out that regeneration is far from absolute as once you take enough non-lethal damage you (1) are rendered unconcious and (2) any over flow starts to go into regular hit points. Unless you are the Big T. getting hit often enough and hard enough will kill you.

Nice houserule (very common apparently sice that myth keeps getting repeated). But Nope. You can take 1 million non-lethal. It will never become lethal without a wish (which is why Tarrasque requires a Wish).

JaronK
2010-01-14, 07:34 PM
Sphere of Annihilation might still ruin your day, but I think there's a PRC for that

Yeah, that's a lot like a Disintegrate, so that would probably do it.

Really, the issue with the Lerneaen Lumi is that while he can't actually die, he's not that powerful. Honestly, he might be fine in normal games... most DMs don't want the PCs to die, but they want the PCs to be able to lose encounters sometimes to feel challenged. With the LL, that can absolutely happen. They don't have many actual powers that help do anything to other people... they've got their awesome version of TWF and immunity to flanking, plus a few fun spell likes, but for the most part they don't do all that much. They're actually in serious danger of turtling. They're not going to make encounters feel easy, as the other party members can still get hurt. I dunno, I think it feels okay.

JaronK

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-01-14, 07:46 PM
Yeah, that's a lot like a Disintegrate, so that would probably do it.

Really, the issue with the Lerneaen Lumi is that while he can't actually die, he's not that powerful. Honestly, he might be fine in normal games... most DMs don't want the PCs to die, but they want the PCs to be able to lose encounters sometimes to feel challenged. With the LL, that can absolutely happen. They don't have many actual powers that help do anything to other people... they've got their awesome version of TWF and immunity to flanking, plus a few fun spell likes, but for the most part they don't do all that much. They're actually in serious danger of turtling. They're not going to make encounters feel easy, as the other party members can still get hurt. I dunno, I think it feels okay.

JaronK

Actually, I'd say crusader would be better than warblade for this guy in a normal party--warblade is good for someone worried about being called, but a crusader's schtick is "you hit me instead of everyone else" and the Lernean Lumi doesn't care about being hit. Pick up the usual area-control maneuvers and maybe Martial Study a few good Tiger Claw ones for offense and he could make a very respectable tank.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-14, 07:47 PM
Even better: he isn't a drain on healing resources!

JaronK
2010-01-14, 07:50 PM
Actually, I'd say crusader would be better than warblade for this guy in a normal party--warblade is good for someone worried about being called, but a crusader's schtick is "you hit me instead of everyone else" and the Lernean Lumi doesn't care about being hit. Pick up the usual area-control maneuvers and maybe Martial Study a few good Tiger Claw ones for offense and he could make a very respectable tank.

Maybe mix the two, in fact. Enough Warblade for Iron Heart Surge, enough Crusader for Thicket of Blades, and maybe a little Fighter for feats (or at least some flaws). Just stand there whacking stuff and trying to keep it down. Sadly, you can't get large (you're an outsider, so no Enlarge Person) which would make a trippy/lockdown build a lot better. White Raven manuevers would be great of course, since you can keep buffing the party endlessly while enemies can't take you down.

JaronK

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-01-14, 09:20 PM
Sadly, you can't get large (you're an outsider, so no Enlarge Person) which would make a trippy/lockdown build a lot better. White Raven manuevers would be great of course, since you can keep buffing the party endlessly while enemies can't take you down.

JaronK

That can be fixed; instead of fighter, go psychic Warrior. Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) can increase your size by 1 category regardless of type (increase by 2 sizes for +6 PP, or increase to 10 min/level for +2 PP). With Practiced Manifester and enough power points (from high Wis, Psionic Talent, or otherwise), he could keep two-category expansion up all day with only 1 or 2 levels in psychic warrior.

JaronK
2010-01-14, 09:23 PM
That can be fixed; instead of fighter, go psychic Warrior. Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) can increase your size by 1 category regardless of type (increase by 2 sizes for +6 PP, or increase to 10 min/level for +2 PP). With Practiced Manifester and enough power points (from high Wis, Psionic Talent, or otherwise), he could keep two-category expansion up all day with only 1 or 2 levels in psychic warrior.

Right, of course. Though your BAB is still pathetically low, and PW doesn't help that at all. Still, as a lockdown build it has potential.

JaronK

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-01-14, 09:37 PM
Right, of course. Though your BAB is still pathetically low, and PW doesn't help that at all. Still, as a lockdown build it has potential.

JaronK

Hmm. How 'bout this, then: Take most of your levels in psychic warrior, using expansion for tripping and offensive precognition, metaphysical weapon, or other means to boost attack bonus. Take a single level of unarmed swordsage and use psywar bonus feats to head into Master of Nine for the maneuvers you'd need. Yeah, you get maneuvers rather late, but you can function relatively well as a vanilla psywar until then, probably using an item to pick up IHS and a spellblade to guard against disintegrate.

It all depends on the game length, really; even without size increases, a lernean lumi crusader 1 can tank tolerably well in a low-level game, while the psywar/Mo9 can cover a lot of bases at higher levels.