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Schylerwalker
2010-01-14, 03:12 AM
We all know about rings of wizardry, those vaunted magical items that double the amount of spells you can cast per day (Of a certain level, and before you apply bonuses from a high spell-casting stat). Would a ring that doubles the amount of 0 level spells be reasonable? And if so, how much would it cost?

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-14, 03:23 AM
I'd price it at 1000 gp.

Schylerwalker
2010-01-14, 03:32 AM
Yeah, I was guessing it wouldn't cost very much. After all, these are just cantrips. "Fear my 8 times per day Acid Arrow! RAR!"

Nerd-o-rama
2010-01-14, 10:06 AM
You mean Acid Splash. Acid Arrow is actually useful.

Burley
2010-01-14, 10:14 AM
Y'know... I ran one 3.5 game and called Catrips at-will powers. (A couple I decided shouldn't be, like Cure Minor Wounds=/= Unlimited healing...)

For the combat spells like Ray o' Frost and Acid Splash, I met no problems. If you are DMing, try this for a few sessions. You'd be surprised how little it will change the game. It'll keep the wizard from using a crossbow, and that's about it...

Eloel
2010-01-14, 10:17 AM
Launch Bolt would replace xbows entirely for wizards/sorcerers (if at-will). Is that a problem? I have no idea.

Skaven
2010-01-14, 10:19 AM
Sounds fine, except with things like sense magic which could potentially grow cheesy.

sombrastewart
2010-01-14, 10:32 AM
While it's not a bad idea, it'd steal some of the thunder off of things like warlocks as well, which are already pretty limited.

Totally Guy
2010-01-14, 10:36 AM
I'd price it at 1000 gp.

I'd price it at 950gp and throw in a decorative ring box.:smallamused:

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-14, 10:45 AM
Price it at 100000 cp ;p

Magnor Criol
2010-01-14, 10:58 AM
Y'know... I ran one 3.5 game and called Catrips at-will powers. (A couple I decided shouldn't be, like Cure Minor Wounds=/= Unlimited healing...)

For the combat spells like Ray o' Frost and Acid Splash, I met no problems. If you are DMing, try this for a few sessions. You'd be surprised how little it will change the game. It'll keep the wizard from using a crossbow, and that's about it...

This is how the group I usually game with always does it, honestly. We fluff that cantrips are such minor expenditures of arcane energy that once a wizard gets strong enough (I think we set it at "gets level 3 spells," but it might be even sooner) they're nothing more than sneezing to him, and so they're at will and unlimited. Similar for the other casters (except maybe bard, but no one in our group's played one recently enough for me to recall.)

And while a cure minor wounds cantrip can heal everyone, it would take FOREVER to do so, so it doesn't come up often. :smalltongue: We've encountered no problems.

Asheram
2010-01-14, 11:16 AM
Price it at 100000 cp ;p

Edit: Argh. nvm. :P Didn't see the "cp" after it.

Mongoose87
2010-01-14, 11:21 AM
Y'know... I ran one 3.5 game and called Catrips at-will powers. (A couple I decided shouldn't be, like Cure Minor Wounds=/= Unlimited healing...)

For the combat spells like Ray o' Frost and Acid Splash, I met no problems. If you are DMing, try this for a few sessions. You'd be surprised how little it will change the game. It'll keep the wizard from using a crossbow, and that's about it...

That's how it works in Pathfinder. They made Cure Minor Wounds an instant "stop bleeding" spell.

Zom B
2010-01-14, 11:28 AM
We likewise make 0-level spells at will after 3rd level spells, even Cure Minor Wounds, for the same reason given above. It takes a lot of time so it's not really that abusable and in general just speeds up downtime. In fact, we generally allow prepared casters to not have to prepare spells into their slots of spell levels equal to their highest spell level castable - 5. So an 11th level wizard casting 6th level spells can just cast straight out of their spellbook on their 1st-level spells.

With this variant rule we have run into no problems as well. In fact, it's saved some headaches with situations like "This creature is jabbering at me but I didn't prepare Comprehend Languages" or "Gee, this 280-foot drop sure makes me wish I had Feather Fall prepared."

Faleldir
2010-01-14, 11:57 AM
It may be wise to add a few limits:
-If a cantrip creates matter, only one instance of that matter can be active at a time, unless you use another slot. This prevents infinite Create Water and other obvious abuse.
-Your 0th-level spell slots determine how many different cantrips you can cast in the same day. This prevents Wizards, Clerics and Druids from preparing every cantrip on their list.
-If you use a 0th-level spell slot for any other purpose, it is expended normally.
-If you lower the level of a spell that isn't normally a cantrip for your class, it does not benefit from infinite cantrips.

arguskos
2010-01-14, 12:04 PM
It may be wise to add a few limits:
-If a cantrip creates matter, only one instance of that matter can be active at a time, unless you use another slot. This prevents infinite Create Water and other obvious abuse.
-Your 0th-level spell slots determine how many different cantrips you can cast in the same day. This prevents Wizards, Clerics and Druids from preparing every cantrip on their list.
-If you use a 0th-level spell slot for any other purpose, it is expended normally.
-If you lower the level of a spell that isn't normally a cantrip for your class, it does not benefit from infinite cantrips.
I've been using Infinite Cantrips for about two years now, and I can say that this is no issue.

1. No one has once thought that Create Water abuse was a good idea, though they did use it once to put out a fire.
2. I do this, though Sorcerers/other spontaneous casters really have an edge on them.
3. Yup, that's actually a good call. I had a player who tried Fell Draining Sonic Snaps and claimed he should have it all day. I ruled as above. Hasn't been an issue since.
4. I'd agree with this, but then again, it's tricky to do, and most tricks able to do so are beyond my group's op level, so I'd tell that player to scale it back anyways.

However, Inf. Cantrips is totally awesome and everyone should use it. It's a great rule. :smallbiggrin:

Thespianus
2010-01-14, 12:11 PM
However, Inf. Cantrips is totally awesome and everyone should use it. It's a great rule. :smallbiggrin:

Would be greatly appreciated by any Arcane Rogue type of character: Free touch attacks for 1 HP + XD6 Sneak Attack damage, all day long. ;)

lsfreak
2010-01-14, 12:15 PM
Considering that they don't get any iterative attacks and is only usable while invisible or during the surprise/first round, it's not really a problem.

EDIT: And free healing isn't a problem either. It takes forever, and anything remotely time-sensitive will require the use of other sources of healing. Plus, unless you're going up against rather under-CR'd fights, you can't afford to go into battle at half-health; players *need* to be at near-full health for fights.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-14, 01:48 PM
Sounds fine, except with things like sense magic which could potentially grow cheesy.

Warlocks get it at 2nd level, and anyone can get it at-will with a Feat (Shape Soulmeld).


(A couple I decided shouldn't be, like Cure Minor Wounds=/= Unlimited healing...)


Why do people always have such a problem with this? Dread Necromancers can get it at 1st level, Binders get it at 7th, and Clerics can just Persist Circle of Vigor. Seriously, allowing your players to start each encounter at full HP only encourages them to press onward instead of resting after 2 encounters.

Dr Bwaa
2010-01-14, 03:48 PM
Bear in mind that a Ring of Prestidigitation is 1000gp, so a Ring of Cantrips ought to cost more. (I think the way to do this would be take a RoPrestidigitation and then add 500gp for each additional at-will cantrip you put on it, maybe a little less for the crappier ones, but I don't remember the actual creation rules off the top of my head.)

Thespianus
2010-01-14, 04:01 PM
Considering that they don't get any iterative attacks and is only usable while invisible or during the surprise/first round, it's not really a problem.
...or when flanking. Not sure if there are any Core cantrips that do touch attack damage, but there's Inflict Minor Wound that deals 1 point of damage for a Divine caster, I'm sure there's some 1 point of damage cantrip for a Wizard.

But, sure, we're not talking game breaking levels of damage. It's just nice to have some what to get an attack through with a touch attack sometimes. Convenient when you've run out of Wraithstrike spells. ;)

deuxhero
2010-01-14, 04:19 PM
acidsplash?

Asheram
2010-01-14, 04:21 PM
Bear in mind that a Ring of Prestidigitation is 1000gp, so a Ring of Cantrips ought to cost more. (I think the way to do this would be take a RoPrestidigitation and then add 500gp for each additional at-will cantrip you put on it, maybe a little less for the crappier ones, but I don't remember the actual creation rules off the top of my head.)

And then knocking the price even further down by making it alignment and race specific.
You can make such a ring surprisingly cheap

Tavar
2010-01-14, 04:22 PM
Bear in mind that a Ring of Prestidigitation is 1000gp, so a Ring of Cantrips ought to cost more. (I think the way to do this would be take a RoPrestidigitation and then add 500gp for each additional at-will cantrip you put on it, maybe a little less for the crappier ones, but I don't remember the actual creation rules off the top of my head.)

Are you using the core item creation guidlines? If so, well, they're guidelines, and not very good ones at that. This item really isn't that great from a mechanical point of view, no reason to make it more es pensive.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-02, 06:56 PM
Why do people always have such a problem with this? Dread Necromancers can get it at 1st level, Binders get it at 7th, and Clerics can just Persist Circle of Vigor. Seriously, allowing your players to start each encounter at full HP only encourages them to press onward instead of resting after 2 encounters.

People have good reason to be concerned about this. First, note that the three examples you gave all only work for an individual themselves. A Dread Necromancer can do this for themselves and their minions. But unless everyone in the party is undead or burned a feat, they are out of luck. Everyone burning a feat or taking an LA adjustment for this to work is fine. Similarly, Binders have no easy way to do this for anyone but themselves and that doesn't work until level 7 anyways (I think actually level 5 if you are clever). And yes, Naberius is a serious problem. Naberius is one of only a handful of vestiges that puts Binders in a high tier. Your cleric example has to burn a high level spell slot to do that (or needs to use divine metamagic cheese).

Also, the time limit on this isn't nearly as high as some people make it out to be. At 1 hp every 6 seconds, that means you heal 10 hp every minute. Assuming generously that everyone is say a 10th level character and has hit points on the upper end, so say on average 60 hp (again being generous) and is at half damage, then in a party of 5 people that's a total of 15 minutes of time. Not much at all in most circumstances.

Finally, this makes clerics, already an overpowered class, become much more so, and helps make other classes even more redundant. For example, the paladin's Lay on Hands just became even less impressive.

More generally, the main issue I have with cantrips at will is that this benefits most the classes that are already overpowered. However, this isn't that big a deal since this benefits primarily at low levels when those classes haven't had any chance to shine yet. So overall it is a bit of a wash. The concern that it makes warlocks less impressive is a minor one since as soon as they get beyond very low levels the warlock can spam stuff that are a lot stronger than a cantrip.

To return to the original topic, assuming one isn't doing cantrips at will, I'd agree that 1000 gp is reasonable for this.

Dragero
2010-02-02, 07:19 PM
For my game, When you can cast 3rd level spells, cantrips are nearly unlimited. (Exeptions being create water and similar things, don`t want the desert becoming an ocean)