Adeptus Custodes vs Jedi Knights [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Oslecamo

2010-01-14, 10:07 AM

1st question: what jedis are we talking about here?

If you have something like Obi HIGHER GROUND Kenobi or Mace ARMY DESTROYER Windu, against a Custodes team, AC is royally screwed.

On the other hand, non-named jedi masters are not even skilled enough to parry slow-fire blasters with reliability, so rapid fire bolters pose a big threat to them.

2nd question: how many jedis? Because, well, jedi team work royally sucks, to the point in wich the bigger number of jedis you have fighting togheter, the worst they perform.

So for example 100 jedis vs 100 AC results in the AC curb stomping the jedis whitout breaking a sweat.

Now, on the main advantages of each side:
AC
1-Much better equipment in the form of armor and bolter-power lances.
2-Genetic enanchments that greatly buff their endurance, senses and strenght.
3-They've survived more than 10.000 years in the grimdarkness of GRIMDARK. That's saying something.
4-Bolts are explosive, so parrying them with lightsabers means shrnappel in your face.

Jedis
1-Plot shield granted by the OP allow them to use their powers willy nilly.
2-Force powers kinda make up for the lack of ranged weaponry.
3-Force powers give them enanched senses to help them in close combat.

Thus, what happens is that, unless we're using Obi HIGHER GROUND Kenobi levels of jedi, the AC shoot down some jedis at range with massed fire, jedis close in with force jumps, and then lose as they're facing much more experienced oponents with superhuman strenght and enough toughness to keep going even if losing a limb or two.

This is, Jango Fett was just a regular human, and he could almost match the reflexes of a Jedi, so the AC should be more than capable of sword dueling the jedi.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-14, 10:17 AM

I do believe you have not factored in the full list of Force Powers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_powers) available to Jedi.

Comet

2010-01-14, 10:36 AM

I do believe you have not factored in the full list of Force Powers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_powers) available to Jedi.

Fun fact: while reading that article just now I stumbled upon a conjunctive article about "Dun Möch", a lightstaber/force combat style based around confusion. That apparently Darth Vader used.
Insult swordfighting lives!

I laughed a bit.

PhoenixRivers

2010-01-14, 10:48 AM

Jedis
1-Plot shield granted by the OP allow them to use their powers willy nilly.

This is, Jango Fett was just a regular human, and he could almost match the reflexes of a Jedi, so the AC should be more than capable of sword dueling the jedi.

These 2 points.
1-No plot shield is granted. Merely allowing each group to play with their own rules. A similar concession is made when calling them psykers.

2-Jango wasn't 'regular'. Further, I'd put lightsabers on a level more powerful than force weapons. As in:
A) power weapon blocks lightsaber
B) Power weapon is now enhanced with dual-wield ability (i.e. it's in 2 pieces).

Oslecamo

2010-01-14, 10:48 AM

I do believe you have not factored in the full list of Force Powers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_powers) available to Jedi.

If you're expecting me to trust a wiki article that starts with "The factual accuracy of this article or section is disputed."...

Even then, the article clearly states that many of those powers are custom stuff used only by some special characters, and you ruled out that kind of stuff from the begginning.

So we have left the more generic powers, none of wich I remember can really do much against an Adeptus Custodes besides slowing them down. For a bit.

As we could see from the ending of the 2nd movie, put a lot of jedis into a big open area, and they just get cut down like flies, having only their lightsabers, force powers be damned.

If you insist that those jedi powers are all valid, then I demand the AC:
1-Paint their boots and blades red, so they'll move and attack faster.
2-Paint their bolters yellow, so they'll be shootier.
3-Paint their armors green, because GREEN IS BEST!

Jedis, lovers of dull colors, will not stand a chance.

PhoenixRivers:Jango Fett is an elite mercenary, whitout genetic enanchments with a normal lifetime of experience. Adeptus Custodes are the super-ultra-supreme elite units of the Imperium, with hundreds of lifetimes of experience and genetic enanchments.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-14, 10:50 AM

If you're expecting me to trust a wiki article that starts with "The factual accuracy of this article or section is disputed."...
And your information on the abilities of AC is...?

If you insist that those jedi powers are all valid, then I demand the AC:
1-Paint their boots and blades red, so they'll move and attack faster.
2-Paint their bolters yellow, so they'll be shootier.
3-Paint their armors green, because GREEN IS BEST!
Ok, I am not an expert on 40k, but I'm pretty sure that AC aren't Orks. I think your point is therefore invalid.

Oslecamo

2010-01-14, 10:52 AM

And your information on the abilities of AC is...?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Custodes

As you can see, the 40K article isn't so badly written that the fans themselves go and say that it cannot be true.

EDIT:Cephias Cain and Yarrick could use ork technology, wich runs on the power of the WWWAAGHHH!!! Altough one could argue that comissars are the true supreme units of the Imperium, and thus superior to even AC.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-14, 10:53 AM

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Custodes

As you can see, the 40K article isn't so badly written that the fans themselves go and say that it cannot be true.

Give me five minutes and the abilities of the AC will be completely different.

Or at least have a section disputed sign up.

Anyways, I would like to point out that article isn't necessarily well written or accurate - just that no one's gotten around to slapping a disputed sign up.

Incidentally, it's not specifically stated which sections are disputed. Why do you assume everything is? I don't believe such a sweeping generalization is needed.

Oslecamo

2010-01-14, 10:55 AM

Give me five minutes and the abilities of the AC will be completely different.

Or at least have a section disputed sign up.

By all means, go ahead, I could use some laughs at the expense of the 40K crowd.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-14, 11:01 AM

EDIT:Cephias Cain and Yarrick could use ork technology, wich runs on the power of the WWWAAGHHH!!! Altough one could argue that comissars are the true supreme units of the Imperium, and thus superior to even AC.

Not all Ork tech works on the power of belief, and the power claw Yarrick has was adapted for human use. He didn't just plug it in and start hitting people with it.

WNxHasoroth

2010-01-14, 11:14 AM

I'm fairly certain that we can assume that Custodes are at the very least equal to the Grey Knights in terms of protection. Bearing in mind that the Custodes had to stand against horrors and malevolent beings that would have a chance on closing on the Emperor I wouldn't be surprised if the Force didn't work at all due to psychic warding etc. For that I'd classify the Force as something other than Psychic powers if you wanted them to have any affect.

Personally I feel that the Custodes would win. I'm a self proclaimed 40k fanboy (although hopefully not as virulent as some of my breed) but the personal guard to the Emperor himself would have no problem taking on Jedi Masters in an enclosed space that you've described. This isn't a fact, it is just a statement but lets face it. None of the combatants you have described actually exist.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-14, 11:15 AM

I'm fairly certain that we can assume that Custodes are at the very least equal to the Grey Knights in terms of protection. Bearing in mind that the Custodes had to stand against horrors and malevolent beings that would have a chance on closing on the Emperor I wouldn't be surprised if the Force didn't work at all due to psychic warding etc. For that I'd classify the Force as something other than Psychic powers if you wanted them to have any affect.
Ah, but many Light side powers augment the user, such as, but not limited to, Force Speed. That might give the Jedi an edge.

Anyone who has played KotOR will also remember Force Valor and Force Armor, for example.

Oslecamo

2010-01-14, 11:17 AM

Your reasoning is flawed. Not all Ork tech works on the power of belief, and the power claw Yarrick has was adapted for human use. He didn't just plug it in and start hitting people with it.

But Cephias Cain picked up ork shootas and used them just fine.

And by all that it's logic, it should be impossible for an ork shoota to be built by ork tools in such big amounts, let alone work after being used as a club after several combats.

But no. A mek picks up some pieces of metal and wood, clobbers them togheter with hammer and torch, and by the WWAAGHHH!!! the result is the equivalent of an heavy machine gun wich should be impossible to build whitout industry-level technology.

EDIT:On force speed: space marines must fight the eldars, wich many times augment themselves with psyker powers. And the space marines are more than a match for the space elves. So what to say of the AC?

Something like this. Heck, it even has force lighting! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3Y5C7MPdCI)

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-14, 11:20 AM

But Cephias Cain picked up ork shootas and used them just fine.
It's likely that Ork guns work like normal guns. The belief in Dakka just makes them work better.

And by all that it's logic, it should be impossible for an ork shoota to be built by ork tools in such big amounts
Are you trying to say that mass production isn't feasible?

let alone work after being used as a club after several combats.
An AK-47 will work fine after being used as a club after several combats.

But no. A mek picks up some pieces of metal and wood, clobbers them together with hammer and torch, and by the WWAAGHHH!!! the result is the equivalent of an heavy machine gun wich should be impossible to build whitout industry-level technology.
That's... not how it works at all. Also, Orks have factories for arms, munitions and vehicles.

Oslecamo

2010-01-14, 11:26 AM

That's... not how it works at all.

It is. Read the old ork codex that details their life. Meks gather up random pieces from the battlefield brought to them by lootas, put them togheter, and miracously they start working as weapons/vehicles!

In the loota's entry of 3ed edition is stated that Imperial commanders despaired at having to destroy a vehicle, just for the orks to pick up the wreck, and somehow making it work again, despite the humans considering it beyond all repairs.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-14, 11:27 AM

It is. Read the old ork codex that details their life.
That would be like using 2nd edition to learn about the nature of magic in 4th.
The times change, and so do the abilities of the races.

In the loota's entry of 3ed edition is stated that Imperial commanders despaired at having to destroy a vehicle, just for the orks to pick up the wreck, and somehow making it work again, despite the humans considering it beyond all repairs.

Aut a vehicle is much more complicated than a gun. The simple technology is likely to work without belief driving it.

You used a heavy machine gun as an example of something that was clobbered together from various parts and held together by belief. I dispute that; guns are simple technology, thus I believe that the example you used is inaccurate.

Besides, General Incompetus isn't likely to be much of a mechanic anyways.

And Russian T-34 tanks were often salvaged from "beyond repair" IRL. I wonder what that implies about the Russians?

Oslecamo

2010-01-14, 11:39 AM

That would be like using 2nd edition to learn about the nature of magic in 4th.
The times change, and so do the abilities of the races.

However, we hadn't got an ork life book released since then. What's your explanation to where orks get their stuff? What does the latest ork loota entry says? I don't have the 5th codex at hand, but the 4th edition one still stated that lootas brought random weapons from the battlefield and Meks welded them togheter to create deffguns.

but a vehicle is much more complicated than a gun. The simple technology is likely to work without belief driving it.

You used a heavy machine gun as an example of something that was clobbered together from various parts and held together by belief. I dispute that; guns are simple technology, thus I believe that the example you used is inaccurate.

There's several degrees of complexity in guns.

Rapid fire weapons that don't overheat with inunterrupted fire and can pierce power armoras shown here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFkFo5SBx-g) definetely fall on the more complex field.

Besides, General Incompetus isn't likely to be much of a mechanic anyways.
...
You win this one...

And Russian T-34 tanks were often salvaged from "beyond repair" IRL. I wonder what that implies about the Russians?
That they were a lot more badass than most people will ever credit them for? Well, I didn't knew that 34 history, but if it's true, then I guess you're kinda right and the orks are a lot smarter than people give them credit for.

Also you still didn't counter my "eldar=jedis" argument. Eldars enanche themselves with psyker powers, and they still struggle against your average marine.

WNxHasoroth

2010-01-14, 11:43 AM

That would be like using 2nd edition to learn about the nature of magic in 4th.
The times change, and so do the abilities of the races.

No this would be like 3rd and 4th edition have nothing on the nature of magic so everyone uses 2nd edition as it was the latest edition to have information on the nature of magic.

And Russian T-34 tanks were often salvaged from "beyond repair" IRL. I wonder what that implies about the Russians?

Russians are heathen, diabolical monsters that live to fight and drink :smallwink:

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-14, 11:45 AM

No this would be like 3rd and 4th edition have nothing on the nature of magic so everyone uses 2nd edition as it was the latest edition to have information on the nature of magic.
I'm pretty sure 3rd and 4th editions have stuff on the nature of magic, though.

Russians are heathen, diabolical monsters that live to fight and drink :smallwink:
Don't forget that they wear strange hats and dance funny.

hamishspence

2010-01-14, 11:46 AM

I'd say the closest thing the Eldar have to Jedi Knights are Warlocks- formidable fighters, wielding very powerful swords (wound anything on a 2+, but don't have any special armour penetrating powers.)

Farseers are probably on a par with very high end Jedi Masters/Sith Lords- good at fighting, and forseeing the future, nasty powers like Eldritch Storm, Mind War, Doom, etc.

WNxHasoroth

2010-01-14, 11:48 AM

I'm pretty sure 3rd and 4th editions have stuff on the nature of magic, though.

I'm sure they do, but the point is the fluff behind how Ork engineering hasn't been contradicted yet. The fluff in the 3rd Edition Codex is still recent as nothing contradicts it.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-14, 11:49 AM

However, we hadn't got an ork life book released since then. What's your explanation to where orks get their stuff?
Orks do have factories. This implies that not everything is cobbled together from rubble.

What does the latest ork loota entry says? I don't have the 5th codex at hand, but the 4th edition one still stated that lootas brought random weapons from the battlefield and Meks welded them togheter to create deffguns.
Explaination: A Deffgun is a buncha guns wielded together that shoot all the bullets at the same time... which are then augmented by the power of the WAAAGH and become super bullets.

Rapid fire weapons that don't overheat with inunterrupted fire
It takes longer usage than that for a barrel to overheat. And the Ork probably can hold onto hotter barrel shrouds than humans anyways.

and can pierce power armoras shown here definetely fall on the more complex field.
It seems entirely plausible that the gun fires bullets which are then enhanced by the power of WAAAGH, and that the gun would work on its own, just not as well.

Also, the a bullet is definitely seen shooting under an armored shoulder pad - which means it hit a weak spot.

Also you still didn't counter my "eldar=jedis" argument. Eldars enanche themselves with psyker powers, and they still struggle against your average marine.
Eldar portrayal has varied from source to source, but their melee combat specialists are better than the average marine.

Oslecamo

2010-01-14, 11:49 AM

I'd say the closest thing the Eldar have to Jedi Knights are Warlocks- formidable fighters, wielding very powerful swords (wound anything on a 2+, but don't have any special armour penetrating powers.)

They hurt vehicles as if they had strenght 9. That's some very good armor busting right there. A SM captain with a power fist hits at strenght 8.

Krrth

2010-01-14, 12:03 PM

Well, I can say that Ork weapons are stated out for use in Rogue Trader. They don't work as well for non-orks, gaining the unreliable and unwieldy qualities, but they do work.

More complicated things like ship components do not work for non-orks.

EleventhHour

2010-01-14, 12:04 PM

Further, I'd put lightsabers on a level more powerful than force weapons. As in:
A) power weapon blocks lightsaber
B) Power weapon is now enhanced with dual-wield ability (i.e. it's in 2 pieces).

PF stated at the start that they would be able to interact with each other a la normal swords. Seeing as thier both based around energy fields, it makes sense.

Anyway. Ignoring the random Orks stuff that's come up...

It's really decided by wether the Custodes get thier armour. The armour would have the majority (not all) of the wards, and helps enchance thier abilities (Autosenses - Force Sense, etc). So...

Unarmoured : I'd say around a tie. The AC might lose a few to force powers, but the Jedi are likely to lose some to bolter fire. In hand-to-hand, the Jedi will either match, or exceed the AC's speed, but not strength. So, a lot of Jedi parrying and trying to stick the AC in the guts with superior quickness, and I could see at least a few instances of the AC just crushing the lightsaber back into a Jedi's face. (Maybe just once, for that dramatic effect. The rest would just be stronger than anticipated and go through a lighter parry.)

Armoured : AC, slight advantage, with thier increased Force resistance in the long range combat, and while the Hand-to-Hand stays about the same, the beginning casualties on the Jedi would be more telling.

Krrth

2010-01-14, 12:10 PM

As an aside, what happens with a Jedi uses a lightsaber to parry an explosive device?

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-14, 12:24 PM

I'm sure they do, but the point is the fluff behind how Ork engineering hasn't been contradicted yet. The fluff in the 3rd Edition Codex is still recent as nothing contradicts it.

Even if we assume that the old Ork codes is still in effect, the example Ozzy was using was for a heavy machine guns. I maintain my previous stance that for heavy machine guns, it does not work that way.

Not that it has anything to do with the discussion.

Dervag

2010-01-14, 12:51 PM

Oslecamo

2010-01-14, 01:18 PM

Look, don't be deliberately disingenuous. The fact that ork technology works in human hands on a planet full of orks doesn't mean that humans have ork-like powers to make technology work by expecting it to.

The whole damn galaxy is filled with orks last time I checked. Actualy, the orks power being the main reason why all the factions are in a neverending war to provide the orks with endless entertainment (as the orks themselves state that they need wars as humies need food) would make a lot of sense.

And heck, is there any diference between the WWWAAAGHHHH!!! and the sisters acts of faith? Can't a sister make her armor temporaly indestructible just for wishing it strong enough? Don't her weapons hit her oponents harder just because she's very very angry?

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-14, 01:30 PM

And heck, is there any diference between the WWWAAAGHHHH!!! and the sisters acts of faith? Can't a sister make her armor temporaly indestructible just for wishing it strong enough? Don't her weapons hit her oponents harder just because she's very very angry?
Where are you getting this from?

Texas_Ben

2010-01-14, 01:37 PM

Where are you getting this from?
I can't attest to his specific claims (presumably they are acts of faith from the tabletop), but the Adeptus Sororitas class from the Inquisitor's Handbook Dark Heresy supplement gets to do all sorts of nifty things with faith-- extra damage, resist posession, avoid dying, that sort of thing.

PhoenixRivers

2010-01-14, 01:41 PM

I'd say this one probably goes to the Custodes, especially if they're armored. While Jedi have effectively superhuman reflexes, their capabilities are limited by the fact that they're operating on a human frame. To some extent the Force gives them bioenhancement, but the Custodes are boosted to extreme levels.

Also, they have automatic slugthrowing weapons... which are a significant weakness in the Jedi's tactics; they really aren't well prepared to counter that.

Bear in mind:

1) Lightsabers go into 4 feet of solid steel about as easy as a welding torch goes through paper. The effectiveness of armor is... Somewhat mitigated.

2) Typical jedi are not supposed to directly toss people around. However, one is within his rights to paralyze someone by locking their armor. As such, armor may actually be a liability.

3) Jedi lore typically states that they actually see slightly into the future. While this doesn't make them invulnerable, it does make them more than "slightly enhanced". Via the force, we've seen old, decrepit force masters move with five times the speed and agility of an entire Olympics gymnast team. While we're dealing with more generic examples than this, the fact remains that Jedi are much better at the subtle approach (meaning they can often dictate the terms of battle engagement, including the range). How? Clouding the minds of their enemies. Their enhancements go defensive and offensive.

4) Cover isn't really cover when dealing with Jedi. All it does it protect vs ranged fire, which has been demonstrated that Jedi don't have much of. When the cover that AC uses actually moves and pins them against walls? We start getting into what I term an "unfair fight".

5) Why does Star Wars use energy weapons? Likely, in part, because even novice Jedi's can stop and manipulate solid matter. Remember the Matrix scene where Neo stops a couple dozen bullets? Yeah, that.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-14, 01:41 PM

Sisters in DoW: Soulstorm get faith based powers too, though Soulstorm was apparently an abomination.

Oslecamo

2010-01-14, 02:01 PM

Sisters in DoW: Soulstorm get faith based powers too, though Soulstorm was apparently an abomination.

The acts of faith are based on the Tabletop game. You get faith points for purchasing true sister units (a stormtrooper squad will give you no points, but a sisters squad will for example), and then you can expend the points to gain special temporary bonus.

This is acording to the fluff, in wich sisters can make impossible stuff, aparently thanks to their fanatic faith in the emperor. They aren't just powered armored women. They're powered armored women who can breack reality with their fanatism alone! And hey, the more the merrier! Looks strangely similar to the WWWAAAAAGGGHHH!!!

And Texas_Ben now adds that the Dark Heresy game suports this as well. Didn't know about that, but it's great!

Yeril

2010-01-14, 02:40 PM

Bear in mind:

As much as I hate to add gas to the fire of "Jedi vs Grey Knights" as this obviously is a version of..

1) Light Sabres can cut through steel easily, yes, but in 40k EVERYTHING is tuned up to 11, the bricks used to make a tool shed in Jenkins farm on agro-world #422 are undoubtedly harder and more durable than some flimsy metal from 38,000 years ago.

So fluff wise Space marine armour is likely to be unbreakable from conventional means with even heavy grade anti-tank weapons not even leaving a scratch. Coupled in these suits of armour are filled and covered with energy fields, plasma shields and kung-fu-fighting bacteria to boot.

Now I'm not saying that a Lightsabre won't be able to penetrate, but it would hardly be an easy feat, they would be lucky to get a flesh wound through it considering how long it took a lightsabre to cut through that blast door in the movies. The Mandalorians armour is incredibly dense and resistant to Light sabres, this is why they are Jedi hunters, so if the armour is dense enough then it would make lightsabres useless to use in battle since they would need 4 minutes just to bore through half an inch of the metal with a sabre.

Of course this is a null point since Custodes armour is as likely to be a shiny gold chestplate for decoration and nothing more than it is an ancient unbreakable relic.

2) This I suppose is a valid point for the more veteran jedi masters, but Marine armour already wieghs several tons (Wooden stairs are their greatest enemy) and even novice marines are able to prance about in it with super-human agility, so to even slow down a marine it would take some of the high teir jedi masters.

And remember, Jedi are super humanly agile thanks to the force, but Marines are super humanly agile as well, able to keep up with every leap and dodge a jedi can and thats with -natural- abilities, all while wearing 3 tons of armour.

3) Clouding the mind of people who stare down world-devouring demons for a living just doesn't work, Even the newbie scouts have gone through intense psycotheraphy and brain mutliaton to stop that sort of thing specifically happening. Plus their armour, weapons, and what they ate for breakfast is covered with arcane wards, holy scriptures, and all sorts of other business to keep demons out. Grey Knights take this one step further by having peice by peice every section of their skin and flesh removed, then holy symbols engraved onto the bone until every square inch of bone is pure anti-demon/magic/psycic/force.

5) This also comes to point 5 since their bullets are also covered with this kind of business to stop enemies doing -that-.

4) A park bench being thrown at them won't even make a marine flinch, a tank might wind them a little if it wanged them in the back of the head and they weren't expecting it but anything that wouldn't require half a dozen masters all working together to lift off the ground would even be a threat to a marine.

Just to summarise, every example I have used I've been talking on the premise of a rank and file space marine

The adeptus custodes are just in another class, considering they are made in a universe of high octaine sci-fi to be the ultimate warriors, theres nothing really that can touch them because cross-setting comparisons really don't work when you compare the power scale.

It's like a junior leage tiddlywink player going up in a boxing match against Gigantor the Gigantic who brushes his teeth with the bones of former presidents, once punched a hole in the sun and taught Chuck Norris the roundhouse kick..

..and Gigantors 237 twin brothers.

Texas_Ben

2010-01-14, 03:02 PM

1) Light Sabres can cut through steel easily, yes, but in 40k EVERYTHING is tuned up to 11, the bricks used to make a tool shed in Jenkins farm on agro-world #422 are undoubtedly harder and more durable than some flimsy metal from 38,000 years ago.
Not really. I mean yeah, the Imperium has some tough stuff, but not so much tougher than average that you can automatically assume that everything in 40k is eleventy billion times better.

fluff wise Space marine armour is likely to be unbreakable from conventional means with even heavy grade anti-tank weapons not even leaving a scratch. Coupled in these suits of armour are filled and covered with energy fields, plasma shields and kung-fu-fighting bacteria to boot.
Heavy grade anti-tank weapons will take down space marines just fine. It takes a lot of firepower to take a marine down, to be sure, but let's not get ahead of ourselves into the realm of hyperbole.

Of course this is a null point since Custodes armour is as likely to be a shiny gold chestplate for decoration and nothing more than it is an ancient unbreakable relic.
Nah. The custodes ceremonial dress is some sort of leather doohinkel, if I remember correctly. While they haven't seen much action in a long while, they're still the emporer's personal bodyguard. That means they're going to have access to all the top kit the imperium has. Artificer armor with shields, force weapons, the whole deal. Think of it like the guys guarding the president. We normally only see guys in suits, but they're going to have guys with top gear on-call in case anything seriously bad goes down.

I mean sure, they haven't seen action in thousands of years. But they guard the emporer. The guy powering the astronomicon. Without him, warp travel isn't around... and neither is the Imperium. You can bet they aren't taking any chances.

Renegade Paladin

2010-01-14, 03:14 PM

But Cephias Cain picked up ork shootas and used them just fine.
...because the Orks still believe the gun works, whether one of them is holding it or not. The WAAAGH! is a general field, and Ork-built technology will work as long as there are enough Orks around to sustain it.

Johel

2010-01-14, 03:14 PM

Soooo...

Psykers in pyjama with cool laser swords
VS
Naked commandos on steroids since birth, wielding long pole weapons.

For martial skills, especially in melee, I think we can agree that Custodes win if they can disarm the Jedi. Why ? Because even with the Force, a Jedi is still only a human. A Custodes is stronger, taller, faster, a hell lot more resilient, has redundent organs, metal-reinforced bones and got a good dose of "food complement" with each breakfast. Add to that a few centuries of experience in what is arguably a universe where the wars, despite the technology, are won in melee (chainsaw swords ?)

Now, with melee weapons.
Let's forget the power armors, terminator armors and such, since Custodes seldom wear these ("-Armors are for *******...and heretics !!").
If things go into melee, since they are both fast, it really comes down to who hit first. Jedis are as agile as ****ing monkeys and can "feel" the future while Custodes have hundred of years of battle experience and several biological advantages. I'd say it's even.

Now, with a few range weapons.
The standard Custodes weapon is basically a powerful laser weapon incorporated into a deadly energy melee weapon.
It all goes down to "-What's the limit a lightsaber can deflect ?".
The "customs" weapons of Custodes (a personal bolter pistol or other sidearm wouldn't be out of place for an über space marine with a strong individuality) could get ugly. Sure, Jedi can deflect laser shots. This is only light and heat. Wanna do the same to explosive bolts ? Sure, the Jedi will actually block the bolt...then it's going to blow a few centimeters away from his face. The rest of the salvo will probably do the same, eventually injuring the Jedi or putting him out of balance. For all we know, a Custodes could even just throw a frag grenade and make the Jedi lose initiative. :smallwink:

A Custodes, unless headshot, would probably shrug the first few hits he takes. And when he can't shrug them anymore, he'll endure, letting his formidable metabolism keep him alive until he can break the punny psyker's neck. For the Emprah...

Melee, barehanded : Custodes
Melee, with weapons : Even
Range, with laser only : Jedi ?
Range, with bolters : Custodes
All at once : Roll 1d6 then add +5 for Custodes.

Oslecamo

2010-01-14, 03:16 PM

...because the Orks still believe the gun works, whether one of them is holding it or not. The WAAAGH! is a general field, and Ork-built technology will work as long as there are enough Orks around to sustain it.

And like I pointed out in my other post, it's very vell possible that this field actualy extends to the whole galaxy, and so anyone hotblooded/wicked enough can use it. Sisters acts of faith, the birth of Slanesh, melee weapons still being very viable, ect, ect.

SilentDragoon

2010-01-14, 03:17 PM

I don't know much about the WH40k stuff, but on the Jedi side you kinda need to clarify whether you're talking about mook style 'Jedi Research Librarian' Jedi Knights and Masters or Darth 'Hunger' Nihilus who eats planets for breakfast, Darth Sion who doesn't die, or Starkiller? from Force Unleashed who crushes AT-STs with one hand behind his back and dodges exploding shots from a Mandalorian assault craft. Especially the guy from Force Unleashed, as his telekinetic (to use a totally inaccurate word, but whatever) powers of being able to stop Star Destroyers and pulverize AT-STs were pretty crazy.

Force

2010-01-14, 03:20 PM

1) You do realize that the lightsaber was cutting a Star Wars-specific material known as durasteel,of a grade used for blast doors, and not regular steel? 40k does not have the corner of the market on tough materials.

2) Jedi can play telekinetically with velocities conservatively in the hundreds of g's, as evinced by Anakin Skywalker's leap from the speeder in Attack of the Clones (this is Anakin we're talking about, but this is him in his early Padawan state; he's probably very powerful for his age, but not above that of a Jedi master).

3) As has already been pointed out, Jedi are not only superhumanly agile, but are capable of split-second precognition. It's fairly hard to hit your foe when they know where you're shooting before you do. Yes, Jedi can be taken down, but that generally requires overwhelming numbers and firepower and even then they're likely to cut a swathe through the enemy before succumbing. Case in point-- a Padawan (trainee) in Revenge of the Sith cut down eight clone troopers who knew exactly what he was capable of, were prepared for him, and had a great deal of combat experience, before said Padawan succumbed.

However, Jedi mind powers are best used against the weak-minded, and I somehow doubt that the Adeptus Custodes fall into that category.

4) See above. Jedi can slam things around with hundreds of g's of force, conservatively. If they want to smack the Space Marines good, they most certainly can.

5) I presume you're referring to psycannon bolts? I wasn't aware that this ammunition was standard issue for the Adeptus Custodes (considering that they seem to be both rare and expensive, according to the wiki). If they're standard EQ, then the Jedi are at a disadvantage; if they aren't carried in this scenario, then the Jedi will have much more of an advantage.

Oslecamo

2010-01-14, 03:31 PM

4) See above. Jedi can slam things around with hundreds of g's of force, conservatively. If they want to smack the Space Marines good, they most certainly can.

That's just some very special characters. Not even Anakin or Obi could move space ships around with just the force.

Plus hey, custodes trade blows with 10 foot tall demons who are known for eating tanks for breakfast, so they definetely aren't your average stormtrooper.

lesser_minion

2010-01-14, 03:33 PM

I'd probably put custodes armour in the "can save against lightsabers" category.

It's at least artificer armour in 40k terms, if not full-blown terminator armour.

As for lightsabers vs. power swords, a power sword is basically the same thing. Lightsabers would have the same stats and rules.

Bear in mind that, among other things, characters wielding force, daemonic, or power weapons can:

- Cut an opponent's weapon in half (unless that weapon is itself a power, daemon, or force weapon).

- Deflect ranged attacks, including many that a lightsaber wouldn't deflect.

- Cut straight through armour (aside from terminator, vehicle, dreadnought, exo-armour, and rune armour, IIRC).

A lightsaber would have the same stats and rules. Note that power glaives are twice as powerful as power swords in the Inquisitor rules.

Force

2010-01-14, 03:34 PM

That's just some very special characters. Not even Anakin or Obi could move space ships around with just the force.

Plus hey, custodes trade blows with 10 foot tall demons who are known for eating tanks for breakfast, so they definetely aren't your average stormtrooper.

Anakin at the beginning of Attack of the Clones used the Force to break his fall without injury; conservative calculations from this fall indicate that he applied anywhere from 100-360 g's. Yes, this is a 'special' character, but this was Anakin several years from when he was at the peak of his power in Attack of the Clones. Taking into account that the calculations are conservative, and taking them low on the scale, one can get an idea of what an 'average' Jedi master is capable of.

lesser_minion

2010-01-14, 03:36 PM

Anakin at the beginning of Attack of the Clones used the Force to break his fall without injury; conservative calculations from this fall indicate that he applied anywhere from 100-360 g's. Yes, this is a 'special' character, but this was Anakin several years from when he was at the peak of his power in Attack of the Clones. Taking into account that the calculations are conservative, and taking them low on the scale, one can get an idea of what an 'average' Jedi master is capable of.

I'm given to believe that that incident was actually more 'physics fail' than actually worth noting. People get not dying from falls just from being in a film.

Renegade Paladin

2010-01-14, 03:40 PM

And like I pointed out in my other post, it's very vell possible that this field actualy extends to the whole galaxy, and so anyone hotblooded/wicked enough can use it. Sisters acts of faith, the birth of Slanesh, melee weapons still being very viable, ect, ect.
No, because complex Ork devices stop working when removed from the proximity of a bunch of Orks. The more Orks there are, the more ridiculous tech they can sustain.

lesser_minion

2010-01-14, 03:46 PM

Ork technology works in part because of ork psychic tendencies. That's not the only thing to it - simple things like shootas are in fact just badly made mundane weapons (imperial guard have been known to use them whenever they contrived to run out of lasgun ammunition while fighting orks).

Human acts of faith work because they are demonstrating faith in a psyker of godlike power who single-handedly keeps the whole imperium together despite basically being dead.

Force

2010-01-14, 03:57 PM

I'm given to believe that that incident was actually more 'physics fail' than actually worth noting. People get not dying from falls just from being in a film.

*shrugs* He fell at least a hundred meters and survived without injury. That seems fairly indicative of at least some sort of Force usage to me.

lesser_minion

2010-01-14, 04:00 PM

*shrugs* He fell at least a hundred meters and survived without injury. That seems fairly indicative of at least some sort of Force usage to me.

In Star Trek: one of the roughly 50% of Star Trek films that don't actually exist, Captain Kirk falls hundreds of metres and stops right next to the ground. That didn't require force usage.

It's actually more likely that he was slowed by whatever supertech device is actually allowing all of those buildings to stay up.

Oslecamo

2010-01-14, 04:32 PM

*shrugs* He fell at least a hundred meters and survived without injury. That seems fairly indicative of at least some sort of Force usage to me.

Please, what kind of wimpy named character falls a hundred meters and dies? It's even become a trope that if you see someone fall down a cliff with grievous injuries, they will survive and come back.

Texas_Ben

2010-01-14, 04:40 PM

3) As has already been pointed out, Jedi are not only superhumanly agile, but are capable of split-second precognition.

Jedi aren't superhumanly agile. They seem that way precisely because of their precognition. Net effect is the same, but I felt like nitpicking.

5) I presume you're referring to psycannon bolts? I wasn't aware that this ammunition was standard issue for the Adeptus Custodes (considering that they seem to be both rare and expensive, according to the wiki). If they're standard EQ, then the Jedi are at a disadvantage; if they aren't carried in this scenario, then the Jedi will have much more of an advantage.
Psycannon bolts are indeed rare and expensive. Fortunately it's a good bet that the Custodes can have whatever equipment they want, due to the fact that they guard the emporer/astronomicon, without which the imperium ceases to exist. They aren't going to take any chances. They aren't so rare and expensive that the custodes wouldn't have them. After all, the emporer is guarded by titans, which are about as rare and expensive as it gets.

skywalker

2010-01-14, 04:58 PM

Jedis, lovers of dull colors, will not stand a chance.

Jedi have a love of Earth colors, including green, as it were.

PhoenixRivers:Jango Fett is an elite mercenary, whitout genetic enanchments with a normal lifetime of experience. Adeptus Custodes are the super-ultra-supreme elite units of the Imperium, with hundreds of lifetimes of experience and genetic enanchments.

Jango Fett is also a bad-ass normal taken a step farther: He is a mythological normal. The idea of comparing these two groups without special characters is ridiculous and nigh impossible. As a myth, Star Wars is all about special characters, WH40K, for the most part, is all about the grunts (at least in tabletop).

Psycannon bolts are indeed rare and expensive. Fortunately it's a good bet that the Custodes can have whatever equipment they want, due to the fact that they guard the emporer/astronomicon, without which the imperium ceases to exist. They aren't going to take any chances. They aren't so rare and expensive that the custodes wouldn't have them. After all, the emporer is guarded by titans, which are about as rare and expensive as it gets.

Unless the emperor is in one of those crates the OP mentioned, I want to know how they're justifying these expenses to the accounting department. I mean, really, as iron-clad as the 40K rules are about when you can take what and how many points you can spend, aren't the real secret rulers of the Imperium the accountants?

Texas_Ben

2010-01-14, 05:17 PM

Aren't the real secret rulers of the Imperium the accountants?

That's not really a secret. The Administratum is a big deal.

That's part of the reason why orgaizations like the Inquisition, Space Marines, and (presumably) Custodes who can either basically requisition whatever they want (Inquisition) or make their own gear (Marines) are such a big deal. With the Custodes' charge being so all-important, and Mars right next door, they're going to get the best of everything, all they really need to do is ask.

Oslecamo

2010-01-14, 05:21 PM

It's however the templar assassins who get the best toys of all.

Phase blades, exitus rifles with their uber rounds(shield breaker, hellfire), stealth suits, the eviscerator claw thingy, the really good stuff.

The_JJ

2010-01-14, 05:37 PM

Jedi aren't superhumanly agile. They seem that way precisely because of their precognition. Net effect is the same, but I felt like nitpicking.

Yes, Yoda can backflip fifty billion times because he can see into the future. [/sarcasm]

The Jedi are both superhuman (or superalien) and precognis... ant? Whatever. Thingy.

lesser_minion

2010-01-14, 06:10 PM

Yes, Yoda can backflip fifty billion times because he can see into the future. [/sarcasm]

The Jedi are both superhuman (or superalien) and precognis... ant? Whatever. Thingy.

No, they are basically dependent on the force.

We've called that out as psychic powers, and the imperium has quite a few defences against those as well - psyk-out grenades, anyone?

The_JJ

2010-01-14, 06:13 PM

...:smallconfused: Just as the Marines are dependent on thier genetic enhancements. Force powers being 'out' is, bluntly, stupid. And not in the OP, or anyone else's post AFAIK.

lesser_minion

2010-01-14, 06:21 PM

...:smallconfused: Just as the Marines are dependent on thier genetic enhancements. Force powers being 'out' is, bluntly, stupid. And not in the OP, or anyone else's post AFAIK.

I'm pointing out that the marines have a defence against force powers, not that they're "out".

I can barely remember what psyk-out grenades do, but if anyone can bring them to the table, it's the personal bodyguard of the guy who makes them.

EleventhHour

2010-01-14, 06:32 PM

I'm pointing out that the marines have a defence against force powers, not that they're "out".

I can barely remember what psyk-out grenades do, but if anyone can bring them to the table, it's the personal bodyguard of the guy who makes them.

We have to discount the odd stuff, silly. If they could bring every different piece of equipment in the Imperial Armoury, they'd all have personal void shields, Vortex Grenades, Hellfire Rounds, Artificier Armour, Personal Teleports... So on. It's possible that they do have all these things on hand, but thier never depicted or fluffed as using them, so it's only a hypothetical item for them to have, until new AC-related fluff comes out, and tells us the sort of things they have on hand all the time, and how awesome/average they were.

lesser_minion

2010-01-14, 06:41 PM

We have to discount the odd stuff, silly. If they could bring every different piece of equipment in the Imperial Armoury, they'd all have personal void shields, Vortex Grenades, Hellfire Rounds, Artificier Armour, Personal Teleports... So on. It's possible that they do have all these things on hand, but thier never depicted or fluffed as using them, so it's only a hypothetical item for them to have, until new AC-related fluff comes out, and tells us the sort of things they have on hand all the time, and how awesome/average they were.

I guess, although I don't see psyk-out grenades being unreasonable.

It's not especially official, but people using them in actual games generally use the rules for grey knights to cover them.

Dervag

2010-01-14, 07:04 PM

Bear in mind:

1) Lightsabers go into 4 feet of solid steel about as easy as a welding torch goes through paper. The effectiveness of armor is... Somewhat mitigated.Yes, but Custodes armor is likely (given the equipment other similarly elite Imperial forces get) to incorporate force field generators that will resist, if not bounce, lightsaber strikes. Moreover, taking the example of the blast doors in Episode I, they needed quite some time to cut through a heavy blast door with lightsabers; more than they had before security turned up. Heavy metal seems to be at least able to delay lightsabers, requiring an extended period of cutting to breach them. And it's going to be hard to stand there and jam the lightsaber through someone's armor while they're trying to pick you up and throw you against a wall with bone-breaking force or something like that.

Against ordinary Space Marines, who wouldn't have so many suits of field-reinforced armor and who have lighter material in the armor they do have, I wouldn't expect the armor to help much. Against Custodes? I think it'll help noticeably, though I'd still expect the Custodes to take serious casualties.

2) Typical jedi are not supposed to directly toss people around. However, one is within his rights to paralyze someone by locking their armor. As such, armor may actually be a liability.That requires a fine control of manipulation that we haven't seen from most actual Jedi, though, including quite powerful ones. It might be possible, but they won't be doing it easily or frequently to the point where it becomes a dominant battle tactic.

5) Why does Star Wars use energy weapons? Likely, in part, because even novice Jedi's can stop and manipulate solid matter. Remember the Matrix scene where Neo stops a couple dozen bullets? Yeah, that.I've never seen Jedi do anything like that- block shrapnel from an explosion or set up a "wall" of telekinetic force that stops automatic weapon fire. Could you point me to an example?
__________

This is acording to the fluff, in wich sisters can make impossible stuff, aparently thanks to their fanatic faith in the emperor. They aren't just powered armored women. They're powered armored women who can breack reality with their fanatism alone! And hey, the more the merrier! Looks strangely similar to the WWWAAAAAGGGHHH!!!And yet... they're the only ones who can do it. The Imperial Guard don't get that kind of benefit; they'd be practically invincible if they did because there are so many of them.

So while there may be specific humans in 40k whose sheer fanaticism creates an orklike effect on their technology, we're both smart enough to understand the difference between a special case and a general case.

Also, spelling.
_______

As much as I hate to add gas to the fire of "Jedi vs Grey Knights" as this obviously is a version of..

1) Light Sabres can cut through steel easily, yes, but in 40k EVERYTHING is tuned up to 11, the bricks used to make a tool shed in Jenkins farm on agro-world #422 are undoubtedly harder and more durable than some flimsy metal from 38,000 years ago.Oh, come on. It's not that extreme. You're taking the most cranked-up aspects of the stories and then cranking them up even more than the authors did for kicks; we can do better than that.

4) A park bench being thrown at them won't even make a marine flinch, a tank might wind them a little if it wanged them in the back of the head and they weren't expecting it but anything that wouldn't require half a dozen masters all working together to lift off the ground would even be a threat to a marine.Again, the same; I think you haven't been looking at the same stuff I've been looking at. You're exaggerating.

3) As has already been pointed out, Jedi are not only superhumanly agile, but are capable of split-second precognition. It's fairly hard to hit your foe when they know where you're shooting before you do. Yes, Jedi can be taken down, but that generally requires overwhelming numbers and firepower and even then they're likely to cut a swathe through the enemy before succumbing. Case in point-- a Padawan (trainee) in Revenge of the Sith cut down eight clone troopers who knew exactly what he was capable of, were prepared for him, and had a great deal of combat experience, before said Padawan succumbed.Though a lot of the others seem to have died rather easier. In this case, the Custodes have overwhelming firepower; they don't have overwhelming numbers but they're pretty damned tough themselves.

4) See above. Jedi can slam things around with hundreds of g's of force, conservatively. If they want to smack the Space Marines good, they most certainly can.The ability to resist a force applied to oneself does not guarantee the ability to apply that force to others, not when we're talking mind powers. I'd also be reluctant to cite The Force Unleashed as evidence, because that level of telekinetic ability isn't shown by other Jedi to anything like the same degree, even in situations where it could save their lives. That makes me a little suspicious of whether the game can be comfortably fit into its setting, rather than being disregarded as a game mechanic.

Reverent-One

2010-01-14, 08:42 PM

I've never seen Jedi do anything like that- block shrapnel from an explosion or set up a "wall" of telekinetic force that stops automatic weapon fire. Could you point me to an example?

I'm not going to get involved in depth with this debate, but this is one thing I can answer.

Look at the beginning of The Phantom Menace, when Obi-wan and Qui-gon are escaping from the conference room. Obi-wan just throws his hand out and a group of incoming battle droids are all knocked down. That looks like he made a wall of force and just threw it at them, since the alternative would be he grabbed each of them individually and pushed, which seems unlikely to me. And if a padawan like Kenobi can create this sort of a wall, it does not seem unreasonable for a Master to make and hold a wall to stop incoming projectile fire.

Force

2010-01-14, 08:59 PM

That requires a fine control of manipulation that we haven't seen from most actual Jedi, though, including quite powerful ones. It might be possible, but they won't be doing it easily or frequently to the point where it becomes a dominant battle tactic.

I've never seen Jedi do anything like that- block shrapnel from an explosion or set up a "wall" of telekinetic force that stops automatic weapon fire. Could you point me to an example.

Jedi have used the Force to pick mechanical locks and manipulate dice in order to guarantee a specific result, without being suspected of cheating by someone who has a good clue that they are Jedi. I'm not sure what the poster was talking about in regards to 'locking' someone in their armor; if he means holding their legs/arms in place, that's definitely possible.

As for setting up a wall of telekinetic Force... Obi-Wan used this ability against the bounty hunter Durge-- specifically against bullets-- and later against a group of droidekas in an episode of the Clone Wars animation. That's one example; there are a few more on Wookiepedia if you care to look.

Though a lot of the others seem to have died rather easier. In this case, the Custodes have overwhelming firepower; they don't have overwhelming numbers but they're pretty damned tough themselves.

The ability to resist a force applied to oneself does not guarantee the ability to apply that force to others, not when we're talking mind powers. I'd also be reluctant to cite The Force Unleashed as evidence, because that level of telekinetic ability isn't shown by other Jedi to anything like the same degree, even in situations where it could save their lives. That makes me a little suspicious of whether the game can be comfortably fit into its setting, rather than being disregarded as a game mechanic.

Unprepared and surprised by their allies, yes, the Jedi went down fairly easily. Overwhelmed 50-to-1 by droids, yes, they went down. The Custodes are quite in the possession of superior firepower ;) I won't dispute that.

I'd like to know where you got the idea that I was quoting The Force Unleashed. I was looking at Anakin's ability to slow himself down in AOTC; I would think that the ability to control one's own speed would relate to the speeds that Jedi can apply to others. *shrugs* We can look at the Clone Wars series and see Yoda and Mace Windu slamming around tanks & large vehicles like they're toys, but both of these Jedi are the exception, not the rule; Anakin at the beginning of Attack of the Clones is probably the closest we're going to get to an estimation of what a 'typical' Jedi Master can do.

As for predicting this battle... Either way both sides take heavy casualties, but unfortunately for the Jedi, the Custodes are very well prepared to take on enemies wielding psychic powers. Even if their abilities extend only to heavily muting Jedi powers used against them-- no Force pushes, no mind tricks-- the sheer firepower that 40k troopers can bring to the battlefield, compared to unarmored Jedi with only lightsabers... Definitely a toss-up, but I'd have to favor the Custodes. If we were talking about New Jedi Order-type masters, who are much more willing to use more than just said lightsaber, I'd be more optimistic. But Republic Jedi? Not so much.

SilentDragoon

2010-01-14, 09:19 PM

You didn't mention Force Unleashed, I did as it matters what power level the Jedi are. Jedi masters taken from Force Unleashed or KotOR are significantly more powerful with a wider and more refined range of powers than almost anything we see in the movies. You have a Jedi Master feeding off of planets, or channeling the energy of a star, or stopping a Star Destroyer versus Yoda having trouble lifting an energy column in Attack of the Clones. Basically I just wanted to get a sense of whether we have librarians or Sith Lord quality masters going in.
Also, locking someone down has been done, again probably for game developer railroading (not going to deny that most of the game shown powers are orders of magnitude beyond that of the movies), by Malak in KotOR.

Thatguyoverther

2010-01-14, 09:21 PM

I'm not really concerned about who wins so much as the implications of the crossover.

I think the StarWars Emperor would trade the plans to the death star to the 40k emperor for two dozen commissars.

Soras Teva Gee

2010-01-14, 09:52 PM

Not having all 40k books to comb through I merely cite the Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Custodes) which has the following to say about Custodes standard kit

The Custodes are slightly larger and stronger than Space Marines.

The uniforms of the Custodians are traditional but effective: boots, leather breeches and long black cloaks. Their torsos are naked and corded with tattooed muscle. Their tall, brazen helmets, ominous and all-enclosing, give them a threatening and impersonal appearance; ancient and ornate, the helmets incorporate advanced protective equipment and communicators.

Originally the traditional colour of the Custodes was red; following the confinement of the Emperor after the defeat of Horus, it was changed to black.

The weapons carried by the Custodes resemble spears, but in fact they are laser weapons built in the shape of spears. The spears are built to resemble the original guardian spears, carried by the Adeptus Custodes before the Emperor's confinement. The guardian spear is closely associated with the Custodes, and is depicted on their banners and badges.

Now the bigger and stronger boils right out against lightsabers and force powers making the Jedi quicker and better. I personally back unnamed Jedi against pretty much any unnamed military force given unless the deck is deliberately stacked against them.

Now Jedi against a guys wielding laser spears who go shirtless, yeah not going to happen. Deflect the las-bolts then slice and dice, battle over.

Or can someone come up with something that gives the Custodes anything people say they have. But please be sure its not Heresy era, that's a different ballgame. Though I'd still back the Jedi number for numbers.

skywalker

2010-01-15, 12:42 AM

That's part of the reason why orgaizations like the Inquisition, Space Marines, and (presumably) Custodes who can either basically requisition whatever they want (Inquisition) or make their own gear (Marines) are such a big deal. With the Custodes' charge being so all-important, and Mars right next door, they're going to get the best of everything, all they really need to do is ask.

This is my point as well. "I need 250 of these uber-guns to protect our all important God Emperor" seems a lot more likely to get you what you want than "I need 250 of these uber-guns to kill a bunch of robed hippies in some random room full of crates." Especially when accountants are involved.

Yes, but Custodes armor is likely (given the equipment other similarly elite Imperial forces get) to incorporate force field generators that will resist, if not bounce, lightsaber strikes. Moreover, taking the example of the blast doors in Episode I, they needed quite some time to cut through a heavy blast door with lightsabers; more than they had before security turned up. Heavy metal seems to be at least able to delay lightsabers, requiring an extended period of cutting to breach them. And it's going to be hard to stand there and jam the lightsaber through someone's armor while they're trying to pick you up and throw you against a wall with bone-breaking force or something like that.

Qui-gon was trying to go thru two blast doors, if I remember correctly. Also, we're currently operating on the info that the AC normally wear no armor other than helmets. Despite the fact that they're the best of the best, I'm not convinced you could construct a helmet as thick as even one blast door.

That requires a fine control of manipulation that we haven't seen from most actual Jedi, though, including quite powerful ones. It might be possible, but they won't be doing it easily or frequently to the point where it becomes a dominant battle tactic.

I know he's not the typical Jedi, and I know he's got the Skywalker aptitude, but Luke is shown (in Dark Empire) to disable battle droids by using the Force to subtly affect their internal mechanisms and produce fatal malfunctions. He's not "normal" for a Jedi, but this does demonstrate a certain fineness of control.

I've never seen Jedi do anything like that- block shrapnel from an explosion or set up a "wall" of telekinetic force that stops automatic weapon fire. Could you point me to an example?

In light of the previous point, I'd like to bring up the construction of the bolter. According to the Lexicanum, one reason it is not more widely distributed to the forces of the Imperium is that it is too finicky for the average Guardsman to maintain. The trigger assembly, feed system, and ejection sequence all seem ripe for small, "forcible" (ah-ah-ah) manipulation. Just a thought.

The ability to resist a force applied to oneself does not guarantee the ability to apply that force to others, not when we're talking mind powers. I'd also be reluctant to cite The Force Unleashed as evidence, because that level of telekinetic ability isn't shown by other Jedi to anything like the same degree, even in situations where it could save their lives. That makes me a little suspicious of whether the game can be comfortably fit into its setting, rather than being disregarded as a game mechanic.

To my knowledge we have never seen a force-user attack a non-force-user with "thrown" objects. Vader did attack Luke with medium to large (refrigerator sized) industrial equipment (that had been "forcibly" removed from the walls) with enough force to break the "spiderweb window" behind Luke. While that window could have been glass, a sane engineer does not design a glass window onto a drop that far in a room full of gusting winds. I'm leaning towards a sturdy transparent material similar to what is used in starship viewports in that universe. Luke was able to resist these attacks, but he is also a force-user.

While Yoda had difficulty lifting the piece of debris laying atop OB1 and Anakin, I want to point out that Yoda was close to death (equivalent to a 78 year old man who will die at 80) and had just been thru a very taxing duel with Dooku. He was capable of lifting a starfighter (which realistically would weigh somewhere between 10-20 tons) with some effort. While no other Jedi has been shown to have this level of power, armored space marines weigh something in the neighborhood of 1-1.5 tons, so an unarmored member of the AC must weigh somewhat less. Not saying that the Jedi could ragdoll the AC, but merely that their physically affecting force powers would have some affect.

Dervag

2010-01-15, 02:35 AM

Jedi have used the Force to pick mechanical locks and manipulate dice in order to guarantee a specific result, without being suspected of cheating by someone who has a good clue that they are Jedi. I'm not sure what the poster was talking about in regards to 'locking' someone in their armor; if he means holding their legs/arms in place, that's definitely possible.

As for setting up a wall of telekinetic Force... Obi-Wan used this ability against the bounty hunter Durge-- specifically against bullets-- and later against a group of droidekas in an episode of the Clone Wars animation. That's one example; there are a few more on Wookiepedia if you care to look.A point. Though there may be a limit to their ability to stop shots coming from different directions at once, I'm not going to press this issue further.

I'd like to know where you got the idea that I was quoting The Force Unleashed. I was looking at Anakin's ability to slow himself down in AOTC; I would think that the ability to control one's own speed would relate to the speeds that Jedi can apply to others.Those were two separate points; I question the idea that The Force Unleashed can be used as even an upper bound on what Force users are normally capable of, rather than being so overpowered that it effectively breaks its own canon.

But your point about Anakin's ability to slow himself down is something else. I'm not at all sure it works that way, you see; Jedi often show the ability to push massive objects without a corresponding ability to levitate (except in secondary and tertiary sources like computer games). Likewise, if Anakin could throw himself around at will with Force pushes that easily, he could fly with incredible agility. If he could throw others, he could pull his allies out of danger, again very easily. That would be handy in the arena on Geonosis a few days later, for instance.

Either the Jedi's telekinetic powers don't work exactly uniformly (the ability to apply a force F in one situation doesn't confer the ability to apply it in another), or they don't think through the implications of their own abilities very effectively. Which greatly reduces what they're capable of in combat, to the point where the fact that they hypothetically have extreme abilities matters less than their own unwillingness to use them.

Now Jedi against a guys wielding laser spears who go shirtless, yeah not going to happen. Deflect the las-bolts then slice and dice, battle over.Laser? Bolter.

This is my point as well. "I need 250 of these uber-guns to protect our all important God Emperor" seems a lot more likely to get you what you want than "I need 250 of these uber-guns to kill a bunch of robed hippies in some random room full of crates." Especially when accountants are involved.Thing is, the Custodes would have requisitioned all these weapons years ago, especially of people like Soras are right and they've had nothing better to do for the past ten thousand years. They'd already have advanced Imperial weapons.

skywalker

2010-01-15, 03:15 AM

Laser? Bolter.

OP gave no details on time period, so I assume we're going with "current period" AC, who, according to all sources I found, use laser weapons made to be shaped like guardian spears (which contain the bolter) and go (basically) naked. That means that it's a bunch of crazies in gold helmets and "spear shaped laser weapons." This either means that A) They have melee spears with lasguns inside, or B) They have lasguns shaped like spears that are worthless in melee. I don't know how we're supposed to take it.

Thing is, the Custodes would have requisitioned all these weapons years ago, especially of people like Soras are right and they've had nothing better to do for the past ten thousand years. They'd already have advanced Imperial weapons.

But why would they have requisitioned those things? Wouldn't they be expected to give them back when the mission was completed? It seems like they've been sitting around doing nothing for 10,000 years, and they didn't need any of that really cool gear to sit around and do nothing.

Also, you had very little to say about the rest of my post. :smalltongue:

Oslecamo

2010-01-15, 07:26 AM

While that window could have been glass, a sane engineer does not design a glass window onto a drop that far in a room full of gusting winds. I'm leaning towards a sturdy transparent material similar to what is used in starship viewports in that universe. Luke was able to resist these attacks, but he is also a force-user.

Nitpick, but we all know that the Emperor hires a lot of insane engineers.

Stuff like giant mechas wich can be tripped when you have cheap anti-grav technology available, ships wings wich block the pilot's line of sight, and very unsafe passages whitout any security measures where you can easily fall onto the main reactor of your mega weapon of terror that drained a big chunk of your resources for almost nothing. So really, security last.

Similarly, all the stuff thrown during the movies could as easily be badly built parts wich could be detached easily, and the jedis identify those potential thrown weapons with their psi-senses.

Reverent-One

2010-01-15, 08:41 AM

Stuff like giant mechas wich can be tripped when you have cheap anti-grav technology available,

But can the cheap anti-grav support a vehicle as heavily armored and with as much transport capacity as an AT-AT? And while it's possible to trip them, how many vehicles have we seen with the capacity to trip them up? Not many. And it's not easy, all of one AT-AT on hoth was taken out this way. Not quite a good example of insane engineering.

ships wings wich block the pilot's line of sight

I question how useful line of sight is in fighter battles in space as opposed to sensors when not at point blank range.

and very unsafe passages whitout any security measures where you can easily fall onto the main reactor of your mega weapon of terror that drained a big chunk of your resources for almost nothing.

And I'm not even sure what you're referring to here.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-15, 08:42 AM

He is referring to the lack of safety rails anywhere on the Death Star.

Reverent-One

2010-01-15, 08:46 AM

Didn't Darth Vader throw Palapatine over some railing when he killed him? And a general lack of safety rails would really just an issue for whoever works there, and since when has the empire cared about employee safety?

Whoracle

2010-01-15, 08:50 AM

Reverent-One

2010-01-15, 09:00 AM

Yes, it is. The (even more stupid) failure of the rebels and other enemies of the empire to exploit this glaring vulnerability does not make it any less idiotic.

Really? So you know for a fact that the anti-grav technology in the Star Wars unvierse can be used to create an hover vehicle with as much armor and transport capacity as an AT-AT? Because if it can't, the AT-AT has a valid purpose on the battlefield.

Whoracle

2010-01-15, 09:02 AM

[snip]

Oh, sorry, forgot to bold the relevant part. I was talking about the ease with wich AT-ATs can be tripped, and your riposte about how very few vehicles have the ability and how only one has been tripped yet, not about the AntiGrav-part.

Apart from that: Yes, SWverse has antigrav-thingies that can hover SPACESHIPS. I doubt that an ATAT weighs more than the falcon or some of the bigger Ground/Space ships.

Also, look for Repulsor technology that keeps whole Cities afloat (see: Kashyyyk).

Reverent-One

2010-01-15, 09:21 AM

Oh, sorry, forgot to bold the relevant part. I was talking about the ease with wich AT-ATs can be tripped, and your riposte about how very few vehicles have the ability and how only one has been tripped yet, not about the AntiGrav-part.

Apart from that: Yes, SWverse has antigrav-thingies that can hover SPACESHIPS. I doubt that an ATAT weighs more than the falcon or some of the bigger Ground/Space ships.

Also, look for Repulsor technology that keeps whole Cities afloat (see: Kashyyyk).

On the comment on the Imperial's enemies not exploiting the weakness, tripping a AT-AT is not a easy thing. The cable equipped fighter has to circle the AT-AT several times and can't really go that fast when doing so. If the AT-AT is alone this can be rather easy, assuming you can get that close to it, but if it's not alone, it's buddies can take shots at you while you're doing it. This is why the tactic didn't work so well on Hoth, not because the rebels ignored it. Since it's much easier just to have missile carrying fighters or fighters with stronger laser cannons like X-wings, Y-wings, ect blow them up, it's reasonable the Rebels and the like don't focus on the much risker anti-At-at tactic.

While there are many large things that can hover in SW, Cloud City, large spaceships, and so on, they're also larger and have more room for anti-grav tech, which could be an issue for a vehicle you're trying to use an a transport. Also, certain planets in the star wars have terrain or magnetic fields that interfere with hover vehicles, hence the creation of the walkers.

Oslecamo

2010-01-15, 10:24 AM

But can the cheap anti-grav support a vehicle as heavily armored and with as much transport capacity as an AT-AT? And while it's possible to trip them, how many vehicles have we seen with the capacity to trip them up? Not many. And it's not easy, all of one AT-AT on hoth was taken out this way. Not quite a good example of insane engineering.

See phantom menace again. There's plenty of hover vehicles there, including heavily armored transports. It's the clone army that for some reason decides to start using walkers.

I question how useful line of sight is in fighter battles in space as opposed to sensors when not at point blank range.

Considering that in the forcedarkness of the future they don't seem to be able to fit weapons that can fire at a pursuer behind (something even WW1 planes could do), I'm not really seeing how could they fit sensors. Also the empire fighters are stated as not even having shields because the emperor considers only sissies would need defence.

And I'm not even sure what you're referring to here.

The Death Star is filled with holes leading to very dangerous zones. And considering that regular battleships can glass a planet just fine, there's really no need for such a megalomaniac project in the first place. Specially when you leave a stupid air vent wich leads directly to the main reactor.

Force

2010-01-15, 10:34 AM

TIES are designed to be cheap, expendable, and capable of taking down their opponents through sheer weight of numbers. The TIE was built in order to pack as many fighters inside a small space as possible. They're also built for space-superiority, primarily; the Rebellion was focused heavily on fighters as one of its main strike tools. Conversely, he Empire focused on capital ships, but needed a defense against the rebel fighters. The TIE fits this role fairly well, if you consider what it was built for.

There are fighters that have turrets (Y-wings).

As for walkers... the AT-AT has its advantages. For one, it's a psychological weapon; seeing something like that grind towards you, blowing away everything in its path, is really darn scary. Repulsorlift vehicles also have their disadvantages; they can't enter theater shields. Walkers can.

Oslecamo

2010-01-15, 10:51 AM

As for walkers... the AT-AT has its advantages. For one, it's a psychological weapon; seeing something like that grind towards you, blowing away everything in its path, is really darn scary. Repulsorlift vehicles also have their disadvantages; they can't enter theater shields. Walkers can.

Personally, I see the vision of a huge tank grinding the ground below it much more scary than a giant robot with thin legs screaming to be triped and huge blind spots. And a non-hovering tank would be able to go inside the shields as well. Plus easier to fit inside transports. AT-AT waste a lot of space.

Storm Bringer

2010-01-15, 11:43 AM

the one time we see a At-At tripped, in was in the middle of a full scale, set-piece ground assualt. If the Rebels were the largest threat to the Empire (so big that Darth vader was personally overseeing the hunt), then the overrunning of the Hoth base was likey the largest battle fought by the empire for many years.

If, in the middle of such a large battle, their oppenents were still able to exploit thier top-heavy nature, then I think that's still a pretty major weakspot, and one that was not shared by older designs like the AT TE.

others have pointed out that AT-AT scale, heavily armoured transport grav craft exist. the Republic/Empire decided to go with walkers, for whatever reason

as to the vrunabilties of tie fighters: while their design may not be an issue in a long range fight, pretty much every single fighter enguagment we have seen on screen is a Old School Dogfight, with fighters enguaging in battles of manuver to get a clear shot at a point-blank target. We see in A new Hope that the rebel pilots are continuly craning their necks or rolling thier craft to get a clear eyes-on his target. countless times thoughout all 6 flims, when a pilot comes under attack form behind, he turns around to look at his attacker, not down at his sensor readouts. (though, oddly, they don't appear to have HUD targeting systems. every example of a targeting display we see, to my knoweldge, is a destinct screen sitied on the main instrument panel. The late clone war ARC-170 has HUD crosshairs. that's one example in six flims)
so, in the operational envrioment they actualy fight in, their exceedingly poor pilot vision is a real hinerance. they only have acceptable veiws foreward, with a limited view upwards and above-rear via the view-strips on the cockpit top. compare this with x-wing, where the pilot can clearly observe over a half-sphere ie, anything 'above' him form his point of view, as good )and, due to not needing to worry about areodynamics, possibley better) than most real world dogfighters.

warty goblin

2010-01-15, 11:53 AM

TIES are designed to be cheap, expendable, and capable of taking down their opponents through sheer weight of numbers. The TIE was built in order to pack as many fighters inside a small space as possible. They're also built for space-superiority, primarily; the Rebellion was focused heavily on fighters as one of its main strike tools. Conversely, he Empire focused on capital ships, but needed a defense against the rebel fighters. The TIE fits this role fairly well, if you consider what it was built for.

Emphasis mine.

That strikes me as a bit of a reach, really. There are designs I would consider volume efficient...and then there's the TIE fighter. For a space superiority fighter, there's no reason not to build a very simple geometric shape with minimal protrusions.

EleventhHour

2010-01-15, 12:08 PM

...and up next on Star Wars versus 40K it's

(Screen Stretchy, most likely)

Stormblade
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Imperial%20Guard/stormblade3l.jpg

VERSUS

AT-AT
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/thumb/8/8f/ATAT-CHRON.jpg/450px-ATAT-CHRON.jpg

Or, maybe...

Fury/Thunderbolt*
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/thunder3store.jpg

VERSUS

TIE Fighter
http://internetfamo.us/class/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/tiefighter.png

*Yes, the picture is the Thunderbolt, but a Fury is supposed to be the Space varient. ...and they don't have any non-fanmade Fury pictures.

Soras Teva Gee

2010-01-15, 12:11 PM

Storm Bringer

2010-01-15, 12:27 PM

I'd go for a Stormblade or Shadowsword in ambush agianst a AT-AT any day, those things are built to take on titan scale targets (for reference, the AT-AT is apprantly about 50' or so tall, about the middle of the 40K titan bracket. it's a very underpowered beast compared to a titan, but then it's an IFV walker rather than a MBT walker.)

however, in space, I'd go for a tie fighter every time. Even in the mad-tech world of star-wars, the TIE is still an effective dogfighter, DISPITE it's poor design for that work.

ANYWAY, on topic, we know that the imperium has access to weaponry that can mimic to a degree lightsabers (Power-weapons), and that they can distruibute these weapons on a near-common issue (as in, most mid level guard officers can get access to one in they tried). So the custodes would be able to fight with weapons at least in the same league as a lightsabre, even if strictly less effective.

however, we also know the the imperium has access to personal sheilding tech that can semi-relaiably stop both power weaponry and heavy weaponry fire, and can also afford to issue these on a uncommon basis, in the form of refractor fields, and that these can be made small enough to fit into a gorget or a rosairy. It would not be beyound reason to assume that the Custodes helmets contains at least the standard fractor feilds issued to guard officers I think this is key, as it means that the custodes have armour that can at least partaily resist lightsabre blows, while the jedi do not.

Dervag

2010-01-15, 12:47 PM

OP gave no details on time period, so I assume we're going with "current period" AC, who, according to all sources I found, use laser weapons made to be shaped like guardian spears (which contain the bolter) and go (basically) naked. That means that it's a bunch of crazies in gold helmets and "spear shaped laser weapons." This either means that A) They have melee spears with lasguns inside, or B) They have lasguns shaped like spears that are worthless in melee. I don't know how we're supposed to take it.Which sources are these again? I'm getting mixed up.

But why would they have requisitioned those things? Wouldn't they be expected to give them back when the mission was completed? It seems like they've been sitting around doing nothing for 10,000 years, and they didn't need any of that really cool gear to sit around and do nothing.This is not unusual for the Imperium; powerful weapons are often kept in reserve, especially in situations where there's an important ongoing duty that has to be carried out. The Custodes can't necessarily predict in advance when they're going to need heavy weapons, and they have more than enough political leverage to keep the Administratum from taking away the heavy guns they claim to need to protect the God-Emperor of Mankind.

Remember, there's a pair of giant 50-foot walking gun platforms guarding the Emperor too. Those are a lot more valuable than a few meltaguns or plasma pistols would be; if the bureaucrats haven't managed to requisition those Titans away from the Emperor's security detail, you can bet they haven't managed to pry their guns away from them.

Also, you had very little to say about the rest of my post. :smalltongue:I didn't think there was anything there that merited either strong disagreement, strong agreement, or worthwhile comments, so I had nothing to say.

Yes, it is. The (even more stupid) failure of the rebels and other enemies of the empire to exploit this glaring vulnerability does not make it any less idiotic.From the design, it's pretty obvious that the AT-AT is a large scale siege platform, more like super-heavy artillery than a real tank. The reason it's so high off the ground is so that it can mount direct-fire blasters on an elevated platform with long lines of sight.

The lack of secondary weapons on the flanks, and the lack of tactical doctrine to counter attempts to entangle the legs (the obvious counter being to stop moving), is to be expected for a weapon system that had only just gotten out of initial testing and was being rushed into production to help support ground attacks on shielded bases in rough terrain.

It may be that the Imperials were planning to support the AT-ATs with light armor that would cover their flanks and stop enemies from getting too close, and we do see some chicken-walkers strutting around the battle. Maybe the rough terrain and deep snow around the Rebel base stopped the light armor from getting through.

See phantom menace again. There's plenty of hover vehicles there, including heavily armored transports. It's the clone army that for some reason decides to start using walkers.Also the droid army the clones are fighting; remember Episode II?

Considering that in the forcedarkness of the future they don't seem to be able to fit weapons that can fire at a pursuer behind (something even WW1 planes could do), I'm not really seeing how could they fit sensors. Also the empire fighters are stated as not even having shields because the emperor considers only sissies would need defence.OK, now you're just making stuff up.

If, in the middle of such a large battle, their oppenents were still able to exploit thier top-heavy nature, then I think that's still a pretty major weakspot, and one that was not shared by older designs like the AT TE.True. The AT-AT has one advantage that only a top-heavy platform can have, though: long range blasters. An AT-AT can shoot over obstacles that an AT-TE would have to try to shoot through, because it's larger than most small-scale terrain features.

as to the vrunabilties of tie fighters: while their design may not be an issue in a long range fight, pretty much every single fighter enguagment we have seen on screen is a Old School Dogfight, with fighters enguaging in battles of manuver to get a clear shot at a point-blank target. We see in A new Hope that the rebel pilots are continuly craning their necks or rolling thier craft to get a clear eyes-on his target. countless times thoughout all 6 flims, when a pilot comes under attack form behind, he turns around to look at his attacker, not down at his sensor readouts. (though, oddly, they don't appear to have HUD targeting systems. every example of a targeting display we see, to my knoweldge, is a destinct screen sitied on the main instrument panel. The late clone war ARC-170 has HUD crosshairs. that's one example in six flims)That's as likely to be a limitation of the movie makers as anything else, though; back in the mid-'70s the main frame of reference the civilian public had for fighter and naval battles was WWII dogfights.

so, in the operational envrioment they actualy fight in, their exceedingly poor pilot vision is a real hinerance. they only have acceptable veiws foreward, with a limited view upwards and above-rear via the view-strips on the cockpit top. compare this with x-wing, where the pilot can clearly observe over a half-sphere ie, anything 'above' him form his point of view, as good )and, due to not needing to worry about areodynamics, possibley better) than most real world dogfighters.Thing is, the disadvantage you cite for a TIE (poor cockpit visibility) could easily be offset by technology we know exists in real life. It's hard to justify arguing that no such offset is applied and that the TIE has huge blind spots simply because you don't think somebody thought to stick sensors around the rest of the plane.

Its good to see somebody actually read my post and noted what was in it instead of ignoring it.Just because I notice it doesn't mean I agree with it and would repeat what you said.

This isn't Imperial Army vs Titan Legions. Or even Imperium vs Empire, which the Empire would loose.... questionable. The Imperium has a massive advantage in weight of metal and the fanaticism of its citizens, but the Empire has the edge when it comes to some other factors. The big ones:

-Strategic speed: Hyperspace travel is insanely fast, which grants its users an advantage over relatively slow warp travel.
-Rational decision-making: The Empire isn't great at this, but they're better than the 40k Imperium. They're also less xenophobic and (relatively) better at analyzing an enemy objectively rather than going crazy and trying to throw whatever comes to hand at them. That's another big advantage on the tactical and operational level.
-Unified command structure: The Imperium's armed forces are split up among several semi-independent organizations, which makes it a lot harder for them to be effective. Joint operations require a lot of painful negotiations and posturing between Imperial Guard generals, Inquisitors, Space Marine officers, techpriests, and so on.
-(arguably)Productivity: In certain areas (space combat is the big one), the Empire actually wins a war of attrition against the Imperium. The Empire turns out new ships on a regular basis, and can effectively replace much of its fleet on time scales of no more than a few decades. By contrast, most of the Imperium's warships are centuries or millenia old, and the old ones are better than the new ones. The Imperium will be less able to replace destroyed ships than the Empire, especially if the Empire exploits its strategic speed to launch raids against key forge worlds.

But, again, the Imperium has a much higher density of force (more ships and troops per star system), broadly comparable weapon capability (broadly), and a huge population of fanatically dedicated nutjobs.

I could sort of see it going either way unless the Imperium reacts to the Empire by sobering up and reorganizing along sane lines... in which case anyone who fights them is probably screwed.

Soras Teva Gee

2010-01-15, 12:48 PM

ANYWAY, on topic, we know that the imperium has access to weaponry that can mimic to a degree lightsabers (Power-weapons), and that they can distruibute these weapons on a near-common issue (as in, most mid level guard officers can get access to one in they tried). So the custodes would be able to fight with weapons at least in the same league as a lightsabre, even if strictly less effective.

Read their Lexicanum article, the Custodes go shirtless with laser spears.

Otherwise violates the OP normal equip rules. And besides if they guard the Emperor like that they clearly don't have priorities straight enough to use other stuff at need.

however, we also know the the imperium has access to personal sheilding tech that can semi-relaiably stop both power weaponry and heavy weaponry fire, and can also afford to issue these on a uncommon basis, in the form of refractor fields, and that these can be made small enough to fit into a gorget or a rosairy. It would not be beyound reason to assume that the Custodes helmets contains at least the standard fractor feilds issued to guard officers I think this is key, as it means that the custodes have armour that can at least partaily resist lightsabre blows, while the jedi do not.

Standard is laughable, such equipment is rare and valuable. The majority of IG regiments don't have power weapons for any of their officers (e.g. the Vahallan 597th) much less something that can stop one. A Space Marine Chapter or Sororitas convent might field one, but it won't be enough to turn the tide.

AND we have no evidence the more exotic gear even has historical use among the Custodes.

All we have is them shirtless standing around doing nothing for thousands of years. Oh and laser spears.

Soras Teva Gee

2010-01-15, 01:04 PM

Which sources are these again? I'm getting mixed up.

Given that I even hyperlinked it (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Custodes) for everyone's convience it makes this:

Just because I notice it doesn't mean I agree with it and would repeat what you said.

Rather dubious as to actual reading because the Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Custodes) was right there at the top of the post. Which once again it has to say:

The Custodes are slightly larger and stronger than Space Marines.

The uniforms of the Custodians are traditional but effective: boots, leather breeches and long black cloaks. Their torsos are naked and corded with tattooed muscle. Their tall, brazen helmets, ominous and all-enclosing, give them a threatening and impersonal appearance; ancient and ornate, the helmets incorporate advanced protective equipment and communicators.

Originally the traditional colour of the Custodes was red; following the confinement of the Emperor after the defeat of Horus, it was changed to black.

The weapons carried by the Custodes resemble spears, but in fact they are laser weapons built in the shape of spears. The spears are built to resemble the original guardian spears, carried by the Adeptus Custodes before the Emperor's confinement. The guardian spear is closely associated with the Custodes, and is depicted on their banners and badges.

From this source (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Custodes) which you seem confused about. Which really says more then I ever did because unarmored laser firing spears wielders against Jedi is rather self evident no matter how strong they are.

Oh yes and finally: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Custodes

Just because. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DepartmentOfRedundancyDepartment) :smallwink:

Though I do agree the Empire is not without advantages against the Imperium, its another fight entirely that would need conditions established before anything else.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-15, 01:10 PM

Standard is laughable, such equipment is rare and valuable. The majority of IG regiments don't have power weapons for any of their officers (e.g. the Vahallan 597th) much less something that can stop one.

Commissars come with power swords in DoW for what it's worth. And the standard weapon of the Arbites (Imperium police) is a shock-maul, which is a power weapon.

Soras Teva Gee

2010-01-15, 01:32 PM

Commissars come with power swords in DoW for what it's worth. And the standard weapon of the Arbites (Imperium police) is a shock-maul, which is a power weapon.

Strictly true, but DoW is a video game thus runs into gameplay segregation. And the actual Arbites run about one a planet or so most of the time according to Inquisitor Vail so are something of a rarity themselves. So I won't speculate on the distribution there.

And its not that such weapons don't exist, but are still reasonably uncommon and gear that can stop power weapons is a great deal rarer still.

And therefore getting more then say one per group pushing it really really really hard.

(Plus even added to standard Custodes equip they'd still loose given that they are wielding las weapons, and such equip only provides a chance to stop a lightsaber. Ontop of everything else people in this thread seem to want its like fielding an army of Papa Smurfs against J. Q. Random Jedi.)

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-15, 01:34 PM

And the actual Arbites run about one a planet or so most of the time according to Inquisitor Vail so are something of a rarity themselves. So I won't speculate on the distribution there.

This is definitely not the case in The Traitor's Hand, where there's a planet full of Arbites acting as the police. This is standard procedure as far as I can tell.

hamishspence

2010-01-15, 02:00 PM

Actually, it clarifies that. "Arbites" is a generic term Cain uses for police officers of any kind- as in "the local arbites". However, sometimes "real Arbites"- members of the organization "Adeptus Arbites" do crop up.

In The Traitor's Hand, both appear.

"One a planet" is something of an exaggeration, but they certainly don't do most of the policing- they tend to be reserved for more important cases, with "ordinary cops"- referred to as proctors in The Traitor's Hand, doing most of the day-to-day work.

From this source (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Custodes) which you seem confused about. Which really says more then I ever did because unarmored laser firing spears wielders against Jedi is rather self evident no matter how strong they are.

That info is mostly Rogue Trader. This may not be valid for modern 40K depictions of the Custodes. Also, its not clear if it applies to them all, or only the "planetary defense force" with the inner corps of 300 Companions being rather more heavily armed and equipped.

Krrth

2010-01-15, 02:17 PM

Strictly true, but DoW is a video game thus runs into gameplay segregation. And the actual Arbites run about one a planet or so most of the time according to Inquisitor Vail so are something of a rarity themselves. So I won't speculate on the distribution there.

And its not that such weapons don't exist, but are still reasonably uncommon and gear that can stop power weapons is a great deal rarer still.

And therefore getting more then say one per group pushing it really really really hard.

(Plus even added to standard Custodes equip they'd still loose given that they are wielding las weapons, and such equip only provides a chance to stop a lightsaber. Ontop of everything else people in this thread seem to want its like fielding an army of Papa Smurfs against J. Q. Random Jedi.)

Eh, not so much. DH and RT give availability and pricing. Power swords are listed as "Very Rare". Which on a planet of over 100,000 gives a -10 (using percentile) to track down and purchase. Not all that hard to come by.

Carapace armor is listed as "Rare", which under the same conditions counts as a roll with no modifier.

Shock mauls are listed as "Scarce".

They are noted that when they leave Terra they wear powered armor, so why are we putting them in dress uniform? Dress uniform that specifically contains advanced protective devices?

EleventhHour

2010-01-15, 04:05 PM

Actually, it clarifies that. "Arbites" is a generic term Cain uses for police officers of any kind- as in "the local arbites". However, sometimes "real Arbites"- members of the organization "Adeptus Arbites" do crop up.

In The Traitor's Hand, both appear.

"One a planet" is something of an exaggeration, but they certainly don't do most of the policing- they tend to be reserved for more important cases, with "ordinary cops"- referred to as proctors in The Traitor's Hand, doing most of the day-to-day work.

Adeptus Arbites usually have a base per solar system (normally on the most important world), and act as a... well. Space SWAT team.

On Shock Mauls : They are power weapons by defenition, but one of the weakest editions of.

@Laserspear : They are armed with Guardian Spears... and if you follow the accompanying link... : Guardian Spear (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Guardian_spear). Bolter. Not laser.

hamishspence

2010-01-15, 04:09 PM

@Laserspear : They are armed with Guardian Spears... and if you follow the accompanying link... : Guardian Spear (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Guardian_spear). Bolter. Not laser.

it says "laser weapons built to resemble the original Guardian Spears"

The postheresy Custodes appear (going by these sources, anyway) to have lesser weaponry than the Crusade/Heresy era Custodes.

EleventhHour

2010-01-15, 04:21 PM

...totally missed that. :smallredface:

Force

2010-01-15, 04:30 PM

No armor and laser weapons? I think I'll revise my estimate. The Jedi take losses-- possibly heavy-- but they eventually take down the Custodes.

One other point I wanted to make, re: Imperium vs. Empire. The Empire can easily win a war of attrition; they built the DS2 in about two years with the resources of a private shipping company. I recall reading some calculations that stated that the sheer size of the DS2 means that the Empire could have fielded hundreds of thousands of Star Destroyers instead of said battlestation. Unless the Imperium has an enormous tech advantage-- which in space, does not appear to be the case-- at best, they will manage to make some serious inroads into the Empire's space before the Empire's war machine spools up and the Imperium suddenly finds themselves heavily outnumbered.

hamishspence

2010-01-15, 04:48 PM

Its a bit odd- DS1 took 19 years, DS2 much less,

(apparently in the EU, prototype components of it were appearing around the time of A New Hope)

and DS2 was much larger. How did they manage that?

As to the fight, I suspect that if the thread had specified Heresy era Custodes, it might have been a much nastier matchup for the Jedi. Especially if the Guardian Spear is a force weapon, which would suggest the Custodes are psykers.

Dervag

2010-01-15, 06:00 PM

Given that I even hyperlinked it (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Custodes) for everyone's convience it makes this... Rather dubious as to actual reading because the Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Custodes) was right there at the top of the post. Which once again it has to say...From this source (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Custodes) which you seem confused about. Which really says more then I ever did because unarmored laser firing spears wielders against Jedi is rather self evident no matter how strong they are.What I'm confused about is the part where their weapons are not effective when compared to lightsabers, or where their reflexes and combat skill (the two really have to be considered together) are definitely not comparable to those of Jedi. Or where they are presumed to have been wasting their time for the past ten thousand years without bothering to train or pick up even the slightest bit of field experience.

Oslecamo

2010-01-15, 06:38 PM

What I'm confused about is the part where their weapons are not effective when compared to lightsabers, or where their reflexes and combat skill (the two really have to be considered together) are definitely not comparable to those of Jedi.
Wait, what? Jedis are peace-loving hippies, Custodes were the personal bodyguards of the biggest conqueror in fiction, how exactly are the jedis more skilled at combat than custodes? Even the reflexes part is questionable, since custodes have genetic implants to make up for the lack of force powers.

Or where they are presumed to have been wasting their time for the past ten thousand years without bothering to train or pick up even the slightest bit of field experience.

Before the Horus Heresy, Custodes had around centuries of field experience fighting alongside the emperor while he conquered half the galaxy.

After the Horus Heresy, they spent milleniums practising the blood games, and trying to breack their own defences to keep sharp.

So a single custodes will have more field experience than all the jedi side put togheter.

As for equipment, the freaking chapter of the imperial fists is stationed in Terra. I'm pretty sure they can borrow some armors and power weaponry if you insist that the whole Golden Palace is void of weaponry.

Frozen_Feet

2010-01-15, 07:03 PM

Remember, folks, that Custodes are a step up from Astartes, AKA space marines. WH40K space marines are equal to Mandalorians in steroids - the most elite of the elite troops, a long way into superhuman territory. I'd say even a normal space marine is comparable to average force enhanced human when it comes to speed, reflexes, strength and endurance. So Custodes being "naked" is as inconsequential as the jedi wearing fruity robes.

The most important thing in this battle is how well Custodes' weaponry plays against jedi lightsabers. Even laser fire in sufficient quantititities can bring a group of jedi down, as seen in Attack of the Clones. If the custodes have bolters, I say the jedi are screwed - a barrage of fully automatic rocket propelled exploding rounds will be hard for even force users to block. If they deflect them, they still have to worry about shrapnel - and if they stop the rounds midair, what happens when other rounds smash into stopped ones? Bolters fire fast.

Now, the jedi jamming bolters is a possibility, but I say it would be hard. Bolters are reliable little things, with some lasting decades while constantly in use. They are the AK-47 of the setting.

In melee, if custodes have weapons capable of parrying lightsabers, they are easily equal to the jedi. If they don't, they are at disadvantage, but have a decent chance of coping due to supreme skill. They're old, and likely to have more combat experience than the typical jedi.

Jedi mindtricks are out of question - Custodes have superhuman willpower by default, and some have ungodly charisma themselves. The fluff states they are well versed in politics and have prevented conflicts by words, in a world filled with fanatics whose default answer to everything is violence. Forms of telekinesis will cause some problems to the custodes, but they'll hardly be caught off-guard by such - again, remember the setting. Custodes will have some amount of antipsyker training, no doubt about it.

In the end, my vote goes to the Custodes. Jedi are a tough lot, but I'd say a typical jedi is more in the league of a typical space marine, and Adeptus Custodes are explicitly stronger.

warty goblin

2010-01-15, 07:06 PM

From this source (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Custodes) which you seem confused about. Which really says more then I ever did because unarmored laser firing spears wielders against Jedi is rather self evident no matter how strong they are.

Is there any evidence that Light Sabers can actually block photons? Or that a bog standard Jedi can move fast enough to block a laser beam?

We know that ordinary Jedi can be taken down by blasters. Blaster bolts are, at best, about the speed of a rifle bullet. That's less than one kilometer per second. A laser will be going very slightly less than three hundred thousand kilometers per second. If Jango Fett can overload a Jedi's ability to block at a meter using a blaster, an Adeptus Costodes should be able to do the same at much longer distances. Three hundred thousand meters comes to mind, because the Jedi will have about the same amount of time to react.

Oslecamo

2010-01-15, 07:29 PM

Three hundred thousand meters comes to mind, because the Jedi will have about the same amount of time to react.

Not even that actually, because when the Jedi sees the weapon being shot, the laser beam has already hit him!:smalltongue:

Arcanoi

2010-01-15, 08:01 PM

Read their Lexicanum article, the Custodes go shirtless with laser spears.

Otherwise violates the OP normal equip rules. And besides if they guard the Emperor like that they clearly don't have priorities straight enough to use other stuff at need.

Standard is laughable, such equipment is rare and valuable. The majority of IG regiments don't have power weapons for any of their officers (e.g. the Vahallan 597th) much less something that can stop one. A Space Marine Chapter or Sororitas convent might field one, but it won't be enough to turn the tide.

AND we have no evidence the more exotic gear even has historical use among the Custodes.

All we have is them shirtless standing around doing nothing for thousands of years. Oh and laser spears.

The Custodes Article on Lexicanum cites IAN WATSON as its source for the equipment of the Adeptus Custodes post-Heresy. Ian Watson cannot EVER be cited as lore-accurate, as all of his work was swept under TBL's 'don't look under here' rug. In addition, these VS. threads, as I stated before, are calling the fight against the Warhammer -30k- Custodes, not the 40k, unknowable, unreferenced, variation.

Frozen_Feet

2010-01-15, 08:12 PM

40K Space marine codex does reference Custodes in a few sentences. The only remotely valuable info, though, is that 'Custodes are rumoured to be to space marines what space marines are to common humans'; That is, they supposedly exceed even superhuman levels of combat prowess. If this is the case, pitting them against the jedi council instead of typical jedi knights would be more appropriate.

warty goblin

2010-01-15, 08:16 PM

Not even that actually, because when the Jedi sees the weapon being shot, the laser beam has already hit him!:smalltongue:

And that's only if Costodes use visible light lasers. Dial that thing past UV (or down into the IR) though, and short of precognition the first clue a Jedi will get they're being shot at is when they notice the smouldering hole that has inexplicably replaced their lungs.

edit: Although to be fair, it's not really likely that a Costodes could hit a Jedi at three hundred thousand meters, even with a laser. At that sort of distances bloom and increasing beam diameter get to be real problems. You'd also need some serious optics to resolve a target at those ranges.

So maybe if we gave the Costodes the Hubble Telescope, and put the Jedi in space...

Mikka

2010-01-15, 11:12 PM

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/AGRAMAR/astartes/Custodes_terminators.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_LqmwslVmHqM/SQoplQ8PR2I/AAAAAAAABQc/RRiY4qpfUf0/jedi16[6].jpg

I'm not a fan of either. . . although all this talk has made me want to read some sci-fi. . going by the pictures though : p

Mikka

2010-01-15, 11:15 PM

Surrealistik

2010-01-15, 11:35 PM

As an aside, what happens with a Jedi uses a lightsaber to parry an explosive device?

Grisly death.

chiasaur11

2010-01-15, 11:43 PM

Before anyone goes crazy over me posting poser jedis heres a picture of a real bunch. . i think.. yoda is there i know him at least!

http://starwarsroleplayplanetnaboo.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Jedi_Council.292212057_std.jpg

Let's see.

Mace, well, Sam L. Jackson. He could deal with some Custodes.

Yoda, maybe.

The rest? They died to clone troopers, proto storm troopers. Not a stirring record.

Zombiesomg

2010-01-16, 01:50 AM

In this argument i think it really depends what jedi`s the AC are fighting. If we put a couple of jedi knights up against the AC they will get destroyed. A couple of jedi masters should put up a good fight, pretty even hard to say. If we get those legendary sith`s who can crush tanks with their hands or instantly heal any damage taken almost instantly its pretty much over for the AC. Darth Bane is a good example, he can take on 4 jedi masters at once and survive while killing two of them.

Well since it says knights i think its a couple of those powerless jedi who cant do anything cool.

skywalker

2010-01-16, 05:57 AM

Nitpick, but we all know that the Emperor hires a lot of insane engineers.

Stuff like giant mechas wich can be tripped when you have cheap anti-grav technology available, ships wings wich block the pilot's line of sight, and very unsafe passages whitout any security measures where you can easily fall onto the main reactor of your mega weapon of terror that drained a big chunk of your resources for almost nothing. So really, security last.

Similarly, all the stuff thrown during the movies could as easily be badly built parts wich could be detached easily, and the jedis identify those potential thrown weapons with their psi-senses.

The Empire didn't build Cloud City...

Didn't Darth Vader throw Palapatine over some railing when he killed him? And a general lack of safety rails would really just an issue for whoever works there, and since when has the empire cared about employee safety?

Yes, there was definitely a railing. Vader leans on the same railing as Luke hacks at his hand.

And considering that regular battleships can glass a planet just fine, there's really no need for such a megalomaniac project in the first place. Specially when you leave a stupid air vent wich leads directly to the main reactor.

You do not seem to understand the idea of a "terror weapon." Conventional bombs could have leveled Hiroshima just fine, for instance.

Personally, I see the vision of a huge tank grinding the ground below it much more scary than a giant robot with thin legs screaming to be triped and huge blind spots.

Clearly the Imperium itself doesn't agree with you, otherwise why is it investing such a truckload in Titans?

as to the vrunabilties of tie fighters: while their design may not be an issue in a long range fight, pretty much every single fighter enguagment we have seen on screen is a Old School Dogfight, with fighters enguaging in battles of manuver to get a clear shot at a point-blank target. We see in A new Hope that the rebel pilots are continuly craning their necks or rolling thier craft to get a clear eyes-on his target. countless times thoughout all 6 flims, when a pilot comes under attack form behind, he turns around to look at his attacker, not down at his sensor readouts. (though, oddly, they don't appear to have HUD targeting systems. every example of a targeting display we see, to my knoweldge, is a destinct screen sitied on the main instrument panel. The late clone war ARC-170 has HUD crosshairs. that's one example in six flims)
so, in the operational envrioment they actualy fight in, their exceedingly poor pilot vision is a real hinerance. they only have acceptable veiws foreward, with a limited view upwards and above-rear via the view-strips on the cockpit top. compare this with x-wing, where the pilot can clearly observe over a half-sphere ie, anything 'above' him form his point of view, as good )and, due to not needing to worry about areodynamics, possibley better) than most real world dogfighters.

That's as likely to be a limitation of the movie makers as anything else, though; back in the mid-'70s the main frame of reference the civilian public had for fighter and naval battles was WWII dogfights.

Thing is, the disadvantage you cite for a TIE (poor cockpit visibility) could easily be offset by technology we know exists in real life. It's hard to justify arguing that no such offset is applied and that the TIE has huge blind spots simply because you don't think somebody thought to stick sensors around the rest of the plane.

This. The reason why there is no HUD in the X-Wing cockpit is because WWII fighters had no HUD. Look at this image (http://www.roadsquadron.com/Reference/ANH/Xwing/LukeXW_02Yavin.jpg) and you will see a tubular object in front of Luke in the cockpit. That's a gunsight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyro_gunsight), and it's there because those were used in WWII fighters. The reason the pilots act the way they do is the same.

Aesthetic concerns are so imperative as to be ridiculous. In reality, the primary problem with building a space fighter would be eliminating g-stresses for the pilot. If you could do that, the optimal fighter would be capable of very fast direction changes, very fast orientation changes, and firing in numerous directions.

Obviously this wasn't the case in Star Wars because Lucas didn't set out to create the most accurate movie. He set out to entertain people, and he knew dogfights were entertaining. Why do you think Top Gun (a movie featuring planes that could kill enemies from 100 miles away with the touch of a button) pilots got close enough to use their guns?

The vision we have of starfighter combat in the movies is limited by what we are most entertained by. A lot of what the pilots do is based on aerial dogfights, because Lucas wasn't a 3-d tactician. But when you realize how much aerial dogfighting is limited by aerodynamic concerns, the more vanilla it seems.

I didn't think there was anything there that merited either strong disagreement, strong agreement, or worthwhile comments, so I had nothing to say.

Fair enough.

Its a bit odd- DS1 took 19 years, DS2 much less,

(apparently in the EU, prototype components of it were appearing around the time of A New Hope)

and DS2 was much larger. How did they manage that?

The DS1 needed to be built in secret to avoid what happened to DS2. It was designed to complement the masterstroke of dissolving the Senate, and finding out it was on its way might've galvanized the Senate (or others) before it was ready. So it had to be super ultra secret. DS2, by contrast, only had to be the kinda, sorta, let the Bothans know kind of secret.

After the Horus Heresy, they spent milleniums practising the blood games, and trying to breack their own defences to keep sharp.

So a single custodes will have more field experience than all the jedi side put togheter.

As for equipment, the freaking chapter of the imperial fists is stationed in Terra. I'm pretty sure they can borrow some armors and power weaponry if you insist that the whole Golden Palace is void of weaponry.

Exactly, practicing the blood games. I didn't say they weren't skilled (or that they'd been doing nothing for 10K years. But they've been doing blood games. They've been infiltrating high noble houses, and they've been training specifically against assassination. Not sure it changes anything, but wanted to clarify.

Also, we aren't in the Golden Palace. We're in a room full of crates, and that's all we know. We don't know who or where we are.

Now, the jedi jamming bolters is a possibility, but I say it would be hard. Bolters are reliable little things, with some lasting decades while constantly in use. They are the AK-47 of the setting.

Forgive me, but this is not how they are presented. AK-47s are/were handed out in droves to conscripted Soviet infantry. It was designed to handle the apathy of a drafted soldier. According to the Lexicanum, the bolter is specifically too finicky for an average Guardsman to use, so they issue him the far simpler and more reliable lasgun instead. I found the WH40K AK-47, and it's pronounced "lasgun" not "bolter."

We know that ordinary Jedi can be taken down by blasters. Blaster bolts are, at best, about the speed of a rifle bullet. That's less than one kilometer per second. A laser will be going very slightly less than three hundred thousand kilometers per second. If Jango Fett can overload a Jedi's ability to block at a meter using a blaster, an Adeptus Costodes should be able to do the same at much longer distances. Three hundred thousand meters comes to mind, because the Jedi will have about the same amount of time to react.

Jango's blasters are widely believed to have been upgraded for more firepower. Also, Green guy seems to have a general consensus of "not the greatest duelist..."

Soras Teva Gee

2010-01-16, 06:14 AM

@Krrth: I happened to be in a book store so I briefly checked the DH rules on weapons. First off strictly speaking named PCs are heroic characters, so their rules do not necessarily reflect anything else. Also while Shock Mauls are indeed only Scarce vs Very Rare they also do less damage then a Power Sword, don't have the same penetration value, and do not possess the 'destroy enemy weapon' power. They are taser mauls, thus not really what we mean by power weapons. Though I didn't speculate on Shock Mauls for a reason. And that doesn't address the problem of getting something to stop a power weapon which was the real point I was making. You aren't going to field any sizable force that can all stop power weapons.

@Lightsabers vs Lasweapons: Given the way Jedi parry, the speed of the shot is irrelevant. They are predicting the person using the weapon, not reacting super fast to it. That said lasguns do not equal lasers any more then blasters do, I dare say blasters equal lasguns though given that the Imperium shares a relationship with the Empire much like the Zerg share with the Tyranids.

@Source questioning: Whether very old or a bad author if it hasn't been retconned it hasn't been retconned. Though for the record Dan Abnett is also cited in this Lexicanum article as well as the Heresy artbooks, though not what comes from which in particular and any differences between them. So unless someone can cite something even remotely specific there is still no actual info on the Custodes to contradict the Lexicanum description. (Hell in my Dark Heresy browsing I came across a description that implies the Custodes are a breeding caste who are born and live their entire lives on Terra. Not words used for someone with expanded lifespans)

@30k Custodes: Lets for a moment give the Custodes what people want, their full traditional gear. Basically Space Marines with power spears that also have bolters in them. I still back the Jedi.

Why? Well its not that the Jedi don't take losses. They aren't exactly going to stand their and try to parry bolter fire though, that clearly isn't going to work. But Jedi are also quick and agile, they just have to start dodging bolter fire with big acrobatic manuvers. Even that random padawan at the temple was capable of that, experienced full Jedi will be highly mobile if they need to be.

So the Jedi close to melee, and possess what is possibly the best melee weapon in existence. The lightsaber is capable of slicing through just about anything, while being lighter then a fencing foil. Which means that even with power weapons assumed to be capable of parrying a lightsaber that power weapon will still be slower and more awkward then the lightsaber. And the lightsaber's blade cannot itself be damaged.

And for the rest. The Custodes are generally going to be bigger and stronger, but power is largely neutralized by what the lightsaber gives anyways, and with armor being largely meaningless (power weapons and all) that size just gives more target areas against something as nimble as Jedi can be with the force. Now there's experience, but this is easily the slipperiest of argument in vs threads because there are countless cases of less beating more on this front. Its not like any given Jedi is terribly inexperienced, having trained since childhood in using the Force, and relative experience is not something even slightly quantifiable. And its especially neutralized by being unknown quantities.

In short, I'll back the Jedi number for numbers against any part of the Imperium's armed forces.

Frozen_Feet

2010-01-16, 07:16 AM

You're not giving rapid fire weapons the credit they deserve. A jedi dodging the fire of a single bolter is plausible. Jedi dodging wall of fire by multiple bolters is not. To demonstrate a point, I'll give you a real-world experiment with a rabbit, a football field and a minigun. The rabbit is let loose on the field, and it's goal is to run to the other side. The minigun is programmed to shoot each square meter of the field once, then repeat.

The rabbit never makes it.

Why? Because the firing speed of the minigun is quick enough to go trough the field before the rabbit can get halfway trough, and the sheer amount of metal flying trough the air increases the chance of the rabbit being hit to 100%. Unless the crates in the ship are made of adamantine or other bolter-proof material, the jedi are in the same situation as the rabbit in the example.

If we assume equal size groups like the OP, the larger the groups get, the more screwed the jedi will be. With enough bolters, the custodes can put so much metal in the air that even with superhuman reflexes and force precognition the jedi will not have enough room to dodge. Any possible point in space where they could be is covered by either bullets o shrapnell.

Now, if the room the combatants are in is sufficiently large and the combatant are spread around widely and unevenly, the edge given by bolters becomes smaller and the jedi still have a chance to get to melee range. But here I think you're not giving Custodes enough credit. They're not just larger and stronger, they also have superhuman reflexes and speed. In addition, any polearm they have will have greater reach than the average lightsaber, evening out differences in agility. If they have weapons that can parry lightsabers, the greater weight becomes and advantage as they can easily knock them out of the jedis' hands.

Starwars is full of examples of non-jedi inviduals, such as mandalorians, giving jedi headaches. Now, if this was about a single battle between a jedi master and Custodes, I'd vote jedi master. But this is explicitly about typical jedi group, and typical jedis actually aren't all that impressive (I state the battle in Attack of the clones as an example). And they're put up against a group that is looked up by an already superhuman force of fighters. A typical Custodes might not be match for Yoda or Kenobi, but they'll sure as hell be tougher than out-of-the-box jedi knight.

Oslecamo

2010-01-16, 08:38 AM

The Empire didn't build Cloud City...

And it's not like the Empire couldn't recruit the engineers who did it, of course.

You do not seem to understand the idea of a "terror weapon." Conventional bombs could have leveled Hiroshima just fine, for instance.

No they couldn't. Stalingrand was bombed for months with all the germans could throw at it, but the russians holded the line neverthless. If a nuke had been dropped there, the defenders would've all been incinerated.

Plus, a nuke is actually cheaper than the dozens of bombers and explosives that it would take to completely raze down a city.

The Death Star, on the other hand, is worth hundreds of thousands of regular destroyers. An horrible deal resource wise. If the emperium had been spamming destroyers, they would've just rolled over the rebellion, and could still terrorrize planets just fine.

Clearly the Imperium itself doesn't agree with you, otherwise why is it investing such a truckload in Titans?

For the same reason they invest in power fists and thunder hammers: they're morons. The only time titans are effecient are against other titans. They've been one-shoted by single tanks, fighters and even bikers, are so slow that they've been blown up by artillery, and otherwise are a big waste of resources.

Also, baneblades. There are a lot more of these than titans.

Texas_Ben

2010-01-16, 10:40 AM

@Krrth:
First off strictly speaking named PCs are heroic characters, so their rules do not necessarily reflect anything else.

Um... no. Weapon rules are the same for everyone. And PCs in Dark Heresy aren't "Heroic characters" either. You're grunts doing the inquisitor's groundwork, without enough resources, and you tend to die very messily at an alarming rate. The only thing that PCs have that anyone else doesn't really is fate points... and you go through those mighty fast.

Also while Shock Mauls are indeed only Scarce vs Very Rare they also do less damage then a Power Sword, don't have the same penetration value, and do not possess the 'destroy enemy weapon' power. They are taser mauls, thus not really what we mean by power weapons.

Shock mauls aren't power weapons. Whoever said that was wrong. Power weapons are sheathed in a field of extremely destructive energy. Shock mauls are just that-- shock weapons. They use electricity.

Basically shock mauls have no place in this discussion and whoever brought them up in the first place was mistaken.

And that doesn't address the problem of getting something to stop a power weapon which was the real point I was making. You aren't going to field any sizable force that can all stop power weapons.

Power sword does 1d10 + 5, Pen 6.
Power armor wearable by humans and available to civilians provides armor 8
Presumably power armor worn by the custodes will be significantly better (artificer armor designed for their use vs. shoddy power armor designed to be sold to civilians), so let's assume Armor 10.
I don't think that there's any official numbers on space marines, and definitely none on custodes, but toughness 60 (75 being the most extreme upper bound for unaugmented humans) with unnatural toughness x2 seems reasonable.

That means that the custodes will have damage reduction of 22, or 10 if we factor in the penetration (penetration discounts the first X number of armor points and toughness reduction points, so really it's like he's wearing 4 armor and reducing 6 due to tougness). So you need to roll at least a 6 to even damage them.

So on a successful hit, the jedi only have a 50% chance of even wounding them. The jedi, who aren't wearing armors and neither are they soldiers, are going to take a lot of hurt from any hits.

That said lasguns do not equal lasers any more then blasters do, I dare say blasters equal lasguns though given that the Imperium shares a relationship with the Empire much like the Zerg share with the Tyranids.

Lasguns are lasers. They have laser right in the name. If you meant they're roughly equivalent to blasters in power, I agree. But they are definitely completely different in terms of operation.

(Hell in my Dark Heresy browsing I came across a description that implies the Custodes are a breeding caste who are born and live their entire lives on Terra. Not words used for someone with expanded lifespans)

All it says is that they serve "from birth to death". All that means is that they serve until they die (which is presumably a pretty uncommon occurrence), and they start augmenting them at birth, as opposed to the space marines which augment later.

And for the rest. The Custodes are generally going to be bigger and stronger, but power is largely neutralized by what the lightsaber gives anyways, and with armor being largely meaningless (power weapons and all) that size just gives more target areas against something as nimble as Jedi can be with the force.

There's bigger and stronger, and then there's bigger and stronger.

I daresay your average jedi who has spent his life going around keeping the peace (which is what jedi do, of course) is going to have a hard time parrying a blow from a 12-foot tall supersoldier who is badass even in an entire setting turned up to 11.

Now there's experience, but this is easily the slipperiest of argument in vs threads because there are countless cases of less beating more on this front. Its not like any given Jedi is terribly inexperienced, having trained since childhood in using the Force, and relative experience is not something even slightly quantifiable. And its especially neutralized by being unknown quantities.

Jedi are not soldiers. They are peacekeepers and diplomats. They have some combat training, and are certainly competent in a fight, but against super-enhanced dudes who have sat around for the past 10,000 years honing their combat skills? Well, they're quite out of their league.

For the same reason they invest in power fists and thunder hammers: they're morons. AWESOME
fix'd.

Krrth

2010-01-16, 12:18 PM

Soras Teva Gee

2010-01-16, 01:09 PM

@Frozen_Feet: I think your example has the flaw of a predictable pattern and assuming one is trying to dodge not be out of the away just in advance. Even the rabbit has a chance against a meter pattern. Now you basic idea isn't bad, but given that there are something like a couple thousand rounds expended (statistically) for every soldier ever killed by them I don't think certainty has ever been reached on a practical level.

Now on normals fighting Jedi, sure it happens. But when named characters do it its rather a different case, Jango Fett does not mean every Clone Trooper could do the same. Much the same heroic logic applies across fiction, Commisar Cain comes to mind as an 40k example as someone who's survived against creatures he should have been dead within seconds from. Now I'm not sure of any force that has actually been generally equal to Jedi on a 1:1 ratio, Jedi are generally outnumbered. (Then again haven't followed the EU in years so I may be missing something)

@Texas_Ben: Really don't care about all the DH/RT rules. 40k rules have power weapons just ignoring armor. I can very easily see where for balance a tabletop RPG wants to turn that down, its a different sort of gameplay-story segregation. And there are fluff examples of weapons in 40k slicing through metal like butter, which is consistent with lightsabers. However PCs in any game are never just redshirts, its why they are PCs.

And the Jedi are not soldiers, but aside from Leia or trainees I'm not aware of one that doesn't meet a certain baseline ability. I dare say Jedi fufill the same roles Inquisitors do in the Imperium, whatever is needed to suit the objective namely. Not everyone is as competent as Yoda or Windu, but they still all can put up a fight when they need to.

(Oh and like all energy weapons the lasgun does not square with IRL lasers. A fully automatic laser makes no sense, nor does a number of shots. Like blasters lasguns make more sense as energy bullet firing guns. If we are holding the Force to be similar to the Warp for this thread, then there's more then enough overlap to make the same distinction with lasguns)

chiasaur11

2010-01-16, 01:22 PM

Now on normals fighting Jedi, sure it happens. But when named characters do it its rather a different case, Jango Fett does not mean every Clone Trooper could do the same.

No, it's Order 66 that means every clone can do the same.

Arcanoi

2010-01-16, 01:23 PM

]
@Source questioning: Whether very old or a bad author if it hasn't been retconned it hasn't been retconned. Though for the record Dan Abnett is also cited in this Lexicanum article as well as the Heresy artbooks, though not what comes from which in particular and any differences between them. So unless someone can cite something even remotely specific there is still no actual info on the Custodes to contradict the Lexicanum description. (Hell in my Dark Heresy browsing I came across a description that implies the Custodes are a breeding caste who are born and live their entire lives on Terra. Not words used for someone with expanded lifespans)

Actually, it WAS retconned, sir. The entire PLOT of all THREE of his novels was thrown out the window as "The manifestation of the Emperor the Main Characters were trying to revive? Tzeentch. The All-knowing 'Illuminati' trying to help him? Heretics, and the Inquisition killed them all." His entire plot was thrown out, and I don't believe you can cite info from books where, if you were to read them with TBL editting, would be 100 pages of barely coherent words with massive amounts of blacked-out plot. Also, in the Visions of Heresy books, the Custodes DO wear armor.

warty goblin

2010-01-16, 01:23 PM

@Lightsabers vs Lasweapons: Given the way Jedi parry, the speed of the shot is irrelevant. They are predicting the person using the weapon, not reacting super fast to it. That said lasguns do not equal lasers any more then blasters do, I dare say blasters equal lasguns though given that the Imperium shares a relationship with the Empire much like the Zerg share with the Tyranids.

The speed of the shot is still very relevant. The Jedi might be predicting where their enemy will be shooting*, but they still need to get their weapon there to intercept first. Since Jedi move their sabers with finite speed, at some point for a given velocity of projectile parrying becomes more and more unlikely because the Jedi will no longer have sufficient time to move their weapon into position. Precognition or no, at some point parrying is no longer feasible, even against a single enemy. We have at least one canon example of this occuring at quite short range with a fairly small number of shots.

Lasers, as I pointed out, travel about five orders of magnitude faster than blaster bolts. That is a highly non negligable difference- in magnitude it's like comparing your eight pound housecat to an 800,000 pound...whatever the hell weighs 800,000 pounds.

*Something that I've always wondered about these limited precogs. Do they ever see themselves trapped by an unsolvable firing pattern, and so get a few fractions of a second where they are 100% certain they are going to die?

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-01-16, 01:32 PM

Lasers, as I pointed out, travel about five orders of magnitude faster than blaster bolts. That is a highly non negligable difference- in magnitude it's like comparing your eight pound housecat to an 800,000 pound...whatever the hell weighs 800,000 pounds.

Your mom. :smallamused:

Frozen_Feet

2010-01-16, 02:06 PM

... Now you basic idea isn't bad, but given that there are something like a couple thousand rounds expended (statistically) for every soldier ever killed by them I don't think certainty has ever been reached on a practical level

'Wall of fire' is a tactic frequently employed by the Imperium, and they have the resources to pull it off. Even real life armies employ 'metal storm' as perimeter defense. Think about it - if we have 20 Custodes with bolters, each with a magazine of 30 bolts, for a second or two there will be 600 bolts and their shrapnell flying trough the air. Can a jedi dodge the aim of a Custodes faster than they can fire, can they alter their course fast enough to avoid their next shot or the shrapnell from the last one, and more importantly, can they do all this without getting in the way of other shots, the way of each other, while still advancing? My own military training screams no - jumping around in what amounts to open area when the other party has rapid-fire weapons is suicide. Even if you know where the other guys are aiming, your body can only act so fast - as said, enough metal in the air and you will be hit, superhuman reflexes or precognition be damned.

There's a reason why it's said that attacking party has to be three times stronger than the defender to win. If Custodes have firearms and jedi do not, they can easily employ defensive firing tactics against them, in which case the jedi will take too heavy casualties before getting to melee to win.

Krrth

2010-01-16, 02:16 PM

@Texas_Ben: Really don't care about all the DH/RT rules. 40k rules have power weapons just ignoring armor. I can very easily see where for balance a tabletop RPG wants to turn that down, its a different sort of gameplay-story segregation. And there are fluff examples of weapons in 40k slicing through metal like butter, which is consistent with lightsabers. However PCs in any game are never just redshirts, its why they are PCs.

Then we're going to have a fundamental problem, because those rules are cannon.

Texas_Ben

2010-01-16, 05:53 PM

@Texas_Ben: Really don't care about all the DH/RT rules.
So you cite DH rules at us when they support your point, then tell us they're irrelevant? Cool beans. As someone else already said, those rules are canon. If you don't like it, don't take it up with me.

*edit*
This is where you cite DH rules:

Also while Shock Mauls are indeed only Scarce vs Very Rare they also do less damage then a Power Sword, don't have the same penetration value, and do not possess the 'destroy enemy weapon' power.

So you brought it up.

And the Jedi are not soldiers, but aside from Leia or trainees I'm not aware of one that doesn't meet a certain baseline ability. I dare say Jedi fufill the same roles Inquisitors do in the Imperium, whatever is needed to suit the objective namely. Not everyone is as competent as Yoda or Windu, but they still all can put up a fight when they need to.
I never said they couldn't. But being able to put up a fight when they need to, and spending 10,000 years practicing your martial skills is quite a large gap. The jedi aren't soldiers, and although they are competent fighters, they are going to be outmatched in terms of skill in this matchup.

(Oh and like all energy weapons the lasgun does not square with IRL lasers. A fully automatic laser makes no sense, nor does a number of shots. Like blasters lasguns make more sense as energy bullet firing guns. If we are holding the Force to be similar to the Warp for this thread, then there's more then enough overlap to make the same distinction with lasguns)
Generally, lasguns are portrayed more or less like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXfP37QOmNo&feature=related). As you can see, they are clearly lasers. Not "energy bullets". Since they are lasers, they're traveling at light speed. Even jedi are going to have a hard time parrying with 3 or so of those coming at them at a time.

skywalker

2010-01-17, 01:55 AM

Starwars is full of examples of non-jedi inviduals, such as mandalorians, giving jedi headaches. Now, if this was about a single battle between a jedi master and Custodes, I'd vote jedi master. But this is explicitly about typical jedi group, and typical jedis actually aren't all that impressive (I state the battle in Attack of the clones as an example). And they're put up against a group that is looked up by an already superhuman force of fighters. A typical Custodes might not be match for Yoda or Kenobi, but they'll sure as hell be tougher than out-of-the-box jedi knight.

Actually, the OP refers to "generic jedi masters." Your guess is as good as mine as to what that means, but it's not "typical jedi," nor is it a bunch of Kenobi clones.

And it's not like the Empire couldn't recruit the engineers who did it, of course.

This is true. You can't prove me wrong and I can't prove you wrong. Hence, I default to my original position, because, with a galaxy full of planets to choose engineers from, the default assumption should be that it wasn't the same engineer.

No they couldn't. Stalingrand was bombed for months with all the germans could throw at it, but the russians holded the line neverthless. If a nuke had been dropped there, the defenders would've all been incinerated.

Tactically, this is a sound argument. But strategically, it is not. More people died in the firebombing of Tokyo than in Hiroshima. There were plenty of conventional measures that could've replaced the a-bomb tactically. But none had the strategic value it held as a terror weapon.

Plus, a nuke is actually cheaper than the dozens of bombers and explosives that it would take to completely raze down a city.

Not in 1945, it wasn't.

No, it's Order 66 that means every clone can do the same.

Order 66 means every clone is forced to do the same. It doesn't mean they can. I contend that the Jedi were killed in Order 66 by superior numbers, surprise, and the absolute shock that comes from being betrayed by someone you've been leading and fighting alongside of for months and or years.

Lasers, as I pointed out, travel about five orders of magnitude faster than blaster bolts. That is a highly non negligable difference- in magnitude it's like comparing your eight pound housecat to an 800,000 pound...whatever the hell weighs 800,000 pounds.

Wait, wait, wait... I want to make sure you're aware that the visible streaks you see in Star Wars films are actually traveling slower than the blaster bolt preceding them. Just in case you weren't aware.

*Something that I've always wondered about these limited precogs. Do they ever see themselves trapped by an unsolvable firing pattern, and so get a few fractions of a second where they are 100% certain they are going to die?

That would be scary as hell... Altho perhaps not, for someone who has prepared for death their whole life.

'Wall of fire' is a tactic frequently employed by the Imperium, and they have the resources to pull it off. Even real life armies employ 'metal storm' as perimeter defense. Think about it - if we have 20 Custodes with bolters, each with a magazine of 30 bolts, for a second or two there will be 600 bolts and their shrapnell flying trough the air. Can a jedi dodge the aim of a Custodes faster than they can fire, can they alter their course fast enough to avoid their next shot or the shrapnell from the last one, and more importantly, can they do all this without getting in the way of other shots, the way of each other, while still advancing? My own military training screams no - jumping around in what amounts to open area when the other party has rapid-fire weapons is suicide. Even if you know where the other guys are aiming, your body can only act so fast - as said, enough metal in the air and you will be hit, superhuman reflexes or precognition be damned.

Well, first of all, have you seen Equilibrium? I'd envision what Jedi do to be something like that.

Beyond this, I feel the need to point out something I believe we have all failed to take into account until now: the bolter bolt is impact fused. Essentially, it is a dumb rocket. When a Jedi blocks a bolt, does it set off the fuse? If so, is there a big enough combination of time and explosive to create shrapnel before the combination of the projectile's speed and the big plasma sword vaporize the whole thing?

Another complication: the bolt doesn't explode unless it hits something. If the Jedi are simply dodging some shots, those aren't creating shrapnel until they hit a wall or crate, significantly decreasing the amount of flying metal the Jedi have to keep track of.

Soras Teva Gee

2010-01-17, 01:57 AM

No, it's Order 66 that means every clone can do the same.

Oh please. Scratch the EU at all and you've got lots of Jedi surviving and needing years to be tracked down. Of the few Jedi we see exterminated most were otherwise engaged, and one was in the (for Jedi) more vulnerable position of a starfighter. Needing superior numbers to unexpectedly backstab an ally is not exactly outfighting number for numbers.

Actually, it WAS retconned, sir. The entire PLOT of all THREE of his novels was thrown out the window as "The manifestation of the Emperor the Main Characters were trying to revive? Tzeentch. The All-knowing 'Illuminati' trying to help him? Heretics, and the Inquisition killed them all." His entire plot was thrown out, and I don't believe you can cite info from books where, if you were to read them with TBL editting, would be 100 pages of barely coherent words with massive amounts of blacked-out plot. Also, in the Visions of Heresy books, the Custodes DO wear armor.

Where was retcon done then? If its an in-universe retcon of events and not say official discontinuity that the books never happened in the first place, then elements within them can still be canon material. Revealing the plot to have not been what you thought it was, is not the same as removing existence and so tertiary data can still be canon.

And its only one of five sources cited in the article, I don't have the resources to verify which comes from which when the footnotes are unclear. Though one of the clear one ones is for the artbooks listing the changes made at the end of the Heresy including the abandoning of armor, which if true would strictly match up with the artwork of the Heresy itself and what has already been well established. Not owning them or having digitally pirated them but noting the artbooks still have an author as opposed to just artists I'm going to make the guess they also include text portions or other such info.

Care to further clarify, I'm already on record as thinking the Jedi still win even against Heresy era Custodes.

There's a reason why it's said that attacking party has to be three times stronger than the defender to win. If Custodes have firearms and jedi do not, they can easily employ defensive firing tactics against them, in which case the jedi will take too heavy casualties before getting to melee to win.

Its not that that I think it entirely ineffective, but depending on starting distances, size of the space this is in, and the array of cover I think the casualties would be lighter then even added numbers would suggest. Bolters still only have fairly small volume.

Basically that Jedi will still close into melee with most of their numbers, and from there it goes heavily their way. Spears aren't a good melee weapon when the opposing force can say slash the shaft in two with one strike, and have a speed advantage.

Then we're going to have a fundamental problem, because those rules are cannon.

So in the middle of a battle Inquisition Acolytes and heretic scum find a table and roll dice to decide who shoots whom in the chest or misses entirely.

Otherwise I see your cannon and raise you Gameplay And Story Segregation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation). Um, go fish... check? :smallwink:

So you cite DH rules at us when they support your point, then tell us they're irrelevant? Cool beans. As someone else already said, those rules are canon. If you don't like it, don't take it up with me.

*edit*
This is where you cite DH rules

Hmm yeah those don't square quite literally. I don't consider DH rules all binding and was more concerned with pointing out an incomplete answer based on rules someone else brought up then about using them in support of my own point. Also inconsistency with the straight 40k game rules.

I will merely point to the above link on using rules as support for points. Even if Games Workshop gets together with Lucas and puts out a Jedi supplement under the same system the rules would not automatically be meaningful depending what goes into balancing the game and what abstractions it uses. For example its rather nonsense to suggest say Drizzt cannot be killed in his sleep because he's so high level that he has too many hitpoints.

Generally, lasguns are portrayed more or less like this. As you can see, they are clearly lasers. Not "energy bullets". Since they are lasers, they're traveling at light speed. Even jedi are going to have a hard time parrying with 3 or so of those coming at them at a time.

I see you one inaccurate energy weapon depiction and raise you a different one (http://40kminiatures.com/ebayfrontpics/Imperial%20Guard%20Codex.jpg). Or is are the visible beams of your video of no importance and merely an artistic effect for the particular source's depiction.

And given equal numbers then a Jedi only has to block one at a time which is pretty well within their abilities. Jedi afterall aren't reacting to the weapon, but its wielder.

warty goblin

2010-01-17, 02:29 AM

Wait, wait, wait... I want to make sure you're aware that the visible streaks you see in Star Wars films are actually traveling slower than the blaster bolt preceding them. Just in case you weren't aware.

Based on what? All those explosions that occur before the visible streak reaches the target? Because I've watched all the Star Wars movies more than once, and I really don't recall that happening. Certainly not in anything like a majority of cases, or even close*.

As a design it also makes no sense for a weapon. The visible bolt would act as the world's worst tracer since it would give you very little idea of where your shots are actually landing, yet still give your position away even more than a conventional tracer does, since every shot is now a tracer that becomes visible to everyone not blind since birth the instant it leaves the barrel. Net effect? Your accuracy drops, and your enemy knows exactly where you are. Yeah, that'll catch on real well with the infantry.

*The Wookiepedia article on blasters (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Blaster) does not seem to mention anything of the sort either. Of course this could be because the entire explanation is rather light on coherence, and it's simply buried in there somewhere where the poor quivering lump that is my brain cannot hope to assault it. It does however divide blasters into, basically, plasma guns and particle beams. Neither of these have a wave of invisible death moving in front of them, since both hurt you by hitting you with hot stuff.

*

Dervag

2010-01-17, 02:49 AM

Wait, what? Jedis are peace-loving hippies, Custodes were the personal bodyguards of the biggest conqueror in fiction, how exactly are the jedis more skilled at combat than custodes? Even the reflexes part is questionable, since custodes have genetic implants to make up for the lack of force powers.Oslecamo, perhaps you missed this, but I am not the one asserting those claims I mentioned. I'm asking why others would do so.

Is there any evidence that Light Sabers can actually block photons? Or that a bog standard Jedi can move fast enough to block a laser beam?They block stuff by knowing where it's going to arrive before it happens; blocking actual lasers would be entirely consistent with their stated powers.

However, there's still an upper bound on how much fire they can block without their defenses being overloaded, which is going to vary from Jedi to Jedi. The clonetroopers usually managed it by throwing overwhelming numbers from multiple directions at them; it's physically impossible to stop shots headed at your front and back simultaneously with the same lightsaber. If the Custodes don't have overwhelming numbers, things get trickier.

Obviously this wasn't the case in Star Wars because Lucas didn't set out to create the most accurate movie. He set out to entertain people, and he knew dogfights were entertaining. Why do you think Top Gun (a movie featuring planes that could kill enemies from 100 miles away with the touch of a button) pilots got close enough to use their guns?Also, because the experiences of Vietnam showed that the guided missiles of that era hadn't made guns obsolete yet? Vietnam-vintage fighters without guns were often at a very frustrating disadvantage in air to air combat; check out the history of the F-4 Phantom.

Now on normals fighting Jedi, sure it happens. But when named characters do it its rather a different case, Jango Fett does not mean every Clone Trooper could do the same. Much the same heroic logic applies across fiction, Commisar Cain comes to mind as an 40k example as someone who's survived against creatures he should have been dead within seconds from. Now I'm not sure of any force that has actually been generally equal to Jedi on a 1:1 ratio, Jedi are generally outnumbered. (Then again haven't followed the EU in years so I may be missing something)On the other hand, there are no normals in Star Wars quite as ridiculously extreme as 40k Custodes. Moreover, we have plenty of examples of Space Marines (and their big brothers the Custodes) taking on relatively mundane soldiers at heavy odds and winning. If so, we'd expect them to perform better against Jedi than an equal number of B-1 battle droids or clonetroopers would.

skywalker

2010-01-17, 04:12 AM

However, there's still an upper bound on how much fire they can block without their defenses being overloaded, which is going to vary from Jedi to Jedi. The clonetroopers usually managed it by throwing overwhelming numbers from multiple directions at them; it's physically impossible to stop shots headed at your front and back simultaneously with the same lightsaber. If the Custodes don't have overwhelming numbers, things get trickier.

OP states equal numbers. Whether teams of 12, or of 100 is not stated. But "overwhelming numbers" seems to have been ruled right out.

Also, because the experiences of Vietnam showed that the guided missiles of that era hadn't made guns obsolete yet? Vietnam-vintage fighters without guns were often at a very frustrating disadvantage in air to air combat; check out the history of the F-4 Phantom.

Well, yes, that's the theory behind teaching them to dogfight. But the idea of leaving the aircraft carrier in the situation at the end of the film without even carrying your best weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-54_Phoenix) is idiotic.

Arcanoi

2010-01-17, 04:19 AM

As I now feel obligated, I'm going to stat out the Jedi.

Between myself and Oslecamo, we determined the Custodes would be

{table]|WS|BS|S|T|W|I|A|Ld|Sv
Custodian|5|5|5|5|2|4|2|10|2+[/table]

Now, for the jedi.

Jedi are extremely capable with their lightsabers. They are quick, sure, and fight with a limited sort of battle precognition that allows them to know where a blow shall fall before it is ever launched.

Jedi are WS6.

Jedi have no particular affinities towards projectile weapons, but having the force on their side lends them skill even in the obscure art of Dakka.

Jedi are BS4.

Jedi are no stronger than any normal man, and though the force may make them quick, it does not make them any stronger.

Jedi are S3.

Once again, though the force makes the jedi mighty warriors, they still die from the same wounds as mortal men.

Jedi are T3.

See above.

Jedi are W1.
____________

Jedi are blindingly fast in battle, moving so quick as to block blaster-bolts. They weave through combat like blurs of graceful lightning.

Jedi are I7 and A3, and have Counter-Attack.

Jedi are exceptionally well motivated by their ideals, though not so far as to be without fear.

Jedi are Ld 10.
____________

Lightsabers slice through almost all materials, cleaving the air as they strike to produce their characteristic 'hum'. Only the mightiest of materials stand even a chance of holding up against a lightsaber.

Lightsabers are Power Weapons. Although one could also make the argument that they are Poisoned Powers weapons that wound on a 3+ or 4+.
_____________

Most jedi do not wear armor into battle. If they do, it is light, flexible, and designed to ensure it does not impede their movement.

Jedi have a Sv of 6+.
_________________

So here's my projected statline for a jedi.

{table]|WS|BS|S|T|W|I|A|Ld|Sv
Jedi|6|4|3|3|1|7|3|10|6+[/table]

Jedi may always claim a 4+ invulnerable save against shooting attacks.

Not all that impressive, beyond the Initiative, Attacks, and Leadership, right? But that's not taking into account Force Powers, which are rather difficult to rule out, but I'll do my best.
_________________

All Jedi benefit from the Force Adept special rule. This means that they never have to take Psychic tests when using their powers, and can never suffer from Perils of the Warp.

Force Wave - The Jedi throws the enemy back with a mighty blast of telekinetic force.

This psychic power counts as a shooting attack. It has a range of 12". The targeted enemy unit is moved 2d6" directly away from the caster. Any model that cannot be moved this distance due to impassable terrain (Like a building) must take a test as though moving through dangerous terrain. In addition, if a 6 is rolled on the die, all models in the unit suffer from a S3 hit that can be saved by armor.

Force Lightning - Streaks of electricity fly from the Jedi's outstretched fingers, flaying his enemies.

Psychic Shooting attack with the following profile and a range of 6".

{table]S|AP|Type
d6|6|Assault d6[/table]

Force Speed - The Jedi uses the force to augment his speed and agility, making him even faster.

A Jedi using this power is I10, A4, and may reroll failed To Hit rolls until his next movement phase. In addition, he moves 12" rather than 6", and may reroll failed invulnerable saves taken against ranged attacks.

Force Armor - The Jedi girds himself in armor constructed purely of the force.

A Jedi using this power gains a 4+ invulnerable save until his next movement phase. A Jedi using this power may always claim a 2+ Invulnerable save against enemy shooting.
_____________

I'm sure we can think of more, but that's the gist of it. So, who wins? It's certainly a tough call, but I'm still going to call this one for the Custodes. They're just so much TOUGHER than the Jedi, and if their weapons are equal, then the Custodes armor is just BETTER, and I believe their physiques will enable them to win the day. In short, while the Custodes won't be able to out-FIGHT the Jedi, they'll simply out-KILL them.

Selrahc

2010-01-17, 07:04 AM

For the same reason they invest in power fists and thunder hammers: they're morons. The only time titans are effecient are against other titans. They've been one-shoted by single tanks, fighters and even bikers, are so slow that they've been blown up by artillery, and otherwise are a big waste of resources.

Also, baneblades. There are a lot more of these than titans.

There are a very few incidents of legendary heroes taking down Titans. In almost every large scale engagement in 40K where they have been involved Titans have owned the battlefield causing vast casualties until they are countered either by spaceships or by other titans.

If you have an example of titans performing poorly that isn't from the backstory of a special character then bring that up.

Storm Bringer

2010-01-17, 07:54 AM

noted examples off the top of my head of titans being taken out by convetnional forces:

forge world imp Aromour 3 (taros campgain, Tau vs IG) has an example of a specialised tau fighter bomber that was able to take out a Warhound in only one or two passes with ultra-heavy railsguns. This is stated to be Very Unusual in the book, and that the tau normally try to counter titans with thier Manta Missle Destoryers (a class of light starships, and probably the smallest warp capable ship in the canon)

the fluff for Shadowswords also includes titans being stopped by non-titan units, though in this case another purpose-built titan killer using titan scale weaponry. I can't quote any specfic examples off the top of my head, but they can are do kill titans.

thier aren't that many examples, but it does happen. 40K titans tend to hang back a little for the front lines, working as firesupport platforms rather than as line-breakers (though they can and do furfill that role at times)

Well, yes, that's the theory behind teaching them to dogfight. But the idea of leaving the aircraft carrier in the situation at the end of the film without even carrying your best weapon is idiotic.

what was thier ROE? were they cleared to enguage solely on radar contact or did they have to get a visual on the MiGs before they let loose? I havn't seen that movie for ages, so I don't know wether they were under free-fire orders or not.

a quick check on youtube makes it seem like they were operating under ROE requiring a visual check of thier targets before they opened fire. IIRC, they were flying cover on a US ship with engine trouble, near to a 'hostile' country. In that sort of situation, I can personally see the guys in charge not wanting to 'provoke an inicdent' and slapping a restrictive ROE on the pilots...one that costs them a F-14.

Texas_Ben

2010-01-17, 12:52 PM

So in the middle of a battle Inquisition Acolytes and heretic scum find a table and roll dice to decide who shoots whom in the chest or misses entirely.
+1 missing the point.

Otherwise I see your cannon and raise you Gameplay And Story Segregation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation). Um, go fish... check?
What, exactly, are you saying is gameplay and story separation? Throwing out random tropes with no explaination and expecting us to draw our own conclusions is all well and good, but isn't a great argument. You're going to need to specify exactly which mechanics are due to gameplay-story seperation if you want to be taken seriously.

Hmm yeah those don't square quite literally. I don't consider DH rules all binding and was more concerned with pointing out an incomplete answer based on rules someone else brought up then about using them in support of my own point. Also inconsistency with the straight 40k game rules.
There should be an inconsistency with the rules of the tabletop game, because in the RPG you can afford to put a lot more detail into the combat. The tabletop, by virtue of having a lot more guys on the field at a time, needs to resort to abstractions for the sake of expediency.

The point of bringing them up wasn't to say that they're "all-binding", but in order to compare 2 things, you need to have a common basis for comparison. Now, according to the framework of the thread laid out by the OP, power swords and lightsabers are equivalent. If lightsabers=power swords, it makes sense to use the rules for power swords as a basis for comparison.

And given equal numbers then a Jedi only has to block one at a time which is pretty well within their abilities. Jedi afterall aren't reacting to the weapon, but its wielder.
Yes, because in a fight between equal numbers of people, one side always lines up with the other side, and they exchange shots and/or blows on a one-for-one basis. There's cover, remember? That means that several custodes are going to be firing at a jedi when he exits cover. Which doesn't end so well for the Jedi.

Force Lightning - Streaks of electricity fly from the Jedi's outstretched fingers, flaying his enemies.

That's a pretty hardcore dark side power right there, I wouldn't grant it to your typical Jedi. Maybe replace it with something a little more jedi-like. Maybe battle meditation? Granting bonuses to allies within a certain radius?

skywalker

2010-01-17, 03:37 PM

what was thier ROE? were they cleared to enguage solely on radar contact or did they have to get a visual on the MiGs before they let loose? I havn't seen that movie for ages, so I don't know wether they were under free-fire orders or not.

a quick check on youtube makes it seem like they were operating under ROE requiring a visual check of thier targets before they opened fire. IIRC, they were flying cover on a US ship with engine trouble, near to a 'hostile' country. In that sort of situation, I can personally see the guys in charge not wanting to 'provoke an inicdent' and slapping a restrictive ROE on the pilots...one that costs them a F-14.

Your memory is correct. The quote is "if you witness a hostile act, return fire." I can understand not just blowing the MiGs the hell out of the sky as soon as you see them, but there are a number of situations (potential enemy reinforcements) where they could really use a few of those big ones. Then again, the only missile they're ever shown using is the sidewinder, not even the sparrow, and I'm pretty sure one plane actually fires more sidewinders than a real F-14 can carry.

Le sigh. The point was, we enjoy dogfight films. We probably wouldn't enjoy a film that featured realistic starfighter battles because it would be a lot of bizarre twisting, turning, and sudden changes of direction.

Soras Teva Gee

2010-01-17, 11:21 PM

@Texas_Ben: Which rules you ask. All of them. All gameplay rules are ultimately abstractions to one degree of another. Its why I never brought them up and only explored other people's use of them. Even match-ups entirely within a single system aren't particularly meaningful since stats versus fluff can be such a vast and wide margin. Never mind conflicts between editions or different media. Across fictional universes they are entirely meaningless because there is no true common basis for comparison. Because ultimately no rules system yet has been able to reduce the infinite possibilities of story to a coherent rule set.

(Though physics might, if any two creators ever paid more then selective attention to it)

Oh and yeah this isn't a colonial era firing line, but that works for each side as much as against them. Those Jedi not under massed fire enough to overcome their defenses can be advancing on the enemy to get to that melee fight. I'd rate the Jedi superior at being able to use cover, being among other things smaller and with less equipment to make noise, plus any Force tricks, but in this case the cover is crates in a ship so its effect is rather low. Given the complexities this could get into like where and how the cover gets placed and I think we'd be better off assuming that its a fairly neutral factor given the equal numbers of forces.

@skywalker: Well if we want to get technical its unlikely dogfights in space are ever going to be realistic. Unless someone develops Minovsky Particles, some similarly functioning equivalent, or we never develop better a dedicated sensor net in space. Its sad and no fun but realistic space fights are looking to be a series of missile duels determined by who's better equipped.

GoC

2010-01-17, 11:45 PM

Wait... Are these movie jedi, clone wars jedi* or EU jedi?
Clone Wars jedi will make mince meat of Custodes while Custodes will make mince beat of movie ones. And the EU fluctuates like mad when it comes to power (though there is a clear upward trend as time goes by).

*Mace DESTROYER OF ARMIES Windu against 1000 Custodes would be a cool fight.:smallcool:

Arcanoi

2010-01-18, 12:50 AM

Fights involving Samuel L Jackson are not interesting. He always wins. He is the SLJ, and none who would fight him can defeat him.

GoC

2010-01-18, 06:55 AM

Thing is, the disadvantage you cite for a TIE (poor cockpit visibility) could easily be offset by technology we know exists in real life. It's hard to justify arguing that no such offset is applied and that the TIE has huge blind spots simply because you don't think somebody thought to stick sensors around the rest of the plane.
So let me get this straight...
When you want to you can choose to say "well the movie said this" or "well common sense says this" depending of which is more convenient for your argument? I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way (if it did no conclusions could never be reached).
And if you choose the second in explaining away the massive inconsistencies and stupidities you'll change the universe beyond recognition (seriously, every mass battle would have to be rewritten assuming they still happen at all).

Though there's also the third option of considering how it was meant to be perceived by the audience. In which case the Empire loses the insane productivity that produced the DS2 as we can simply consider it a case of Rule of Cool.

We know that ordinary Jedi can be taken down by blasters. Blaster bolts are, at best, about the speed of a rifle bullet.
Not even that.
But recall that Jedi get precognition and I've heard* that Palpitane was clouding the force and preventing their senses from working properly at the time.

*Disclaimer: It was in a vs. thread and said by a group who always support the theory that gives "MOAR POWAA!!!1" to Star Wars.

Jedi are not soldiers. They are peacekeepers and diplomats. They have some combat training, and are certainly competent in a fight, but against super-enhanced dudes who have sat around for the past 10,000 years honing their combat skills? Well, they're quite out of their league.
Just a note: Combat experience is not linearly related to effectiveness. And there's definitely a tapering off point.
10,000 years is probably not noticeably different from 1000 years or 100,000 years.

Le sigh. The point was, we enjoy dogfight films. We probably wouldn't enjoy a film that featured realistic starfighter battles because it would be a lot of bizarre twisting, turning, and sudden changes of direction.
Very slow turning and twisting and changes of direction.:smallwink:

Texas_Ben

2010-01-18, 11:57 AM

Just a note: Combat experience is not linearly related to effectiveness. And there's definitely a tapering off point.
10,000 years is probably not noticeably different from 1000 years or 100,000 years.

Well yeah. The actual amount of experience wasn't what I was getting at, which is that while the Jedi are competent fighters, combat is not their primary specialty. The custodes are warriors first and foremost.

skywalker

2010-01-18, 06:31 PM

So let me get this straight...
When you want to you can choose to say "well the movie said this" or "well common sense says this" depending of which is more convenient for your argument? I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way (if it did no conclusions could never be reached).
And if you choose the second in explaining away the massive inconsistencies and stupidities you'll change the universe beyond recognition (seriously, every mass battle would have to be rewritten assuming they still happen at all).

Just to say, that in the original blueprints (yes, those pesky things that describe the spheres atop the Star Destroyer bridge as "sensor towers") the back of the TIE (frequently referred to as some sort of reactor) is actually the primary hatch, also containing a large window. So there is no need for sensors, since there is in fact a great window there. The idea that it is some sort of reactor is pretty laughable, since there is no space in that cockpit ball for anything of the sort.

Very slow turning and twisting and changes of direction.:smallwink:

How do you figure?

Well yeah. The actual amount of experience wasn't what I was getting at, which is that while the Jedi are competent fighters, combat is not their primary specialty. The custodes are warriors first and foremost.

Explain to me how a jedi knight is not primarily a combatant? How can you rectify the fact that the capstone of their training is building their own kickass laser sword with your assertion that combat is not their primary specialty?

A "peacekeeper" is no less skilled at war than a "soldier." The difference is only semantic. When Jedi are the most highly sought after and respected generals for armies literally bred for war, I should doubt they have lessened effectiveness merely on the grounds that they try to avoid conflict where possible.

GoC

2010-01-18, 06:44 PM

Just to say, that in the original blueprints (yes, those pesky things that describe the spheres atop the Star Destroyer bridge as "sensor towers") the back of the TIE (frequently referred to as some sort of reactor) is actually the primary hatch, also containing a large window. So there is no need for sensors, since there is in fact a great window there. The idea that it is some sort of reactor is pretty laughable, since there is no space in that cockpit ball for anything of the sort.
:smallbiggrin:

How do you figure?
j/k:smalltongue:

skywalker

2010-01-18, 08:01 PM

j/k:smalltongue:

I appear to have missed some inside joke?

Arcanoi

2010-01-18, 08:07 PM

skywalker

2010-01-18, 08:25 PM

Well, in relativistic terms compared to the distances in which the star fighters would be battling, they WOULD be very slow. They'd have a massive velocity, but their angular velocity would be extremely slow. Star Fighters can't turn on pins. They move far too fast.

On another note, someone mentioned something about Star Fighters being Aerodynamic. Star Fighters do not need to be aerodynamic. There is no air in space.

We are trying to make the same point. Starfighters don't need to be aerodynamic. This means that the optimal shape for one is likely to not be too familiar to us.

But I am hypothesizing that they can turn on pins, since all a starfighter needs to do to turn is fire a maneuvering jet to spin the ship, and then fire the main engine to slow rapidly to a stop. Like I said, once the pilots (and somewhat the ships as well, but less so) are insulated against g-forces, there's nothing stopping two fighters twisting and turning around each other inside the a very small space. The type of dogfighting we see currently is simply Earth style air combat translated to space, with swooping, diving, rolls, etc. that would never be used in space because it is way too inefficient in that environment.

Arcanoi

2010-01-18, 08:35 PM

warty goblin

2010-01-18, 10:21 PM

We are trying to make the same point. Starfighters don't need to be aerodynamic. This means that the optimal shape for one is likely to not be too familiar to us.

But I am hypothesizing that they can turn on pins, since all a starfighter needs to do to turn is fire a maneuvering jet to spin the ship, and then fire the main engine to slow rapidly to a stop. Like I said, once the pilots (and somewhat the ships as well, but less so) are insulated against g-forces, there's nothing stopping two fighters twisting and turning around each other inside the a very small space. The type of dogfighting we see currently is simply Earth style air combat translated to space, with swooping, diving, rolls, etc. that would never be used in space because it is way too inefficient in that environment.

There are a few things I find questionable about your formulation.

Starships don't need to be aerodynamic yes, but they still need to be structurally sound, and if you are using armor you'll want to reduce surface area as much as practical.

The second problem is that the time it takes to stop is a very simple function of how fast you are moving relative to that thing and how much acceleration your engine can produce. This is true if you have inertial compensators, reactionless drives, or pretty much anything else short of some form of (non-negligable) friction with space.

Thirdly there is no reason that I can really come up with for a fighter to actually dogfight anything. I can't come up with many good reasons for a fighter, but dogfighting is right out. Missiles, preferably fired from whacking great cannons, seem to me to be a much more sensible approach. Fire them from as far away as possible, then make tracks in the other direction.

.... There's a handy thing in Physics called F=MA. The 'optimal' Starfighter shape would indeed be a sphere. But they wouldn't be able to turn, or stop as the case may be, on a pin, as the ship would first have to apply a force to STOP the ship, and then another one to reverse direction, making the ship basically a sitting duck during this time, especially since it would be doing all of this along a single, inalterable axis to be effective. A starfighter in this sense wouldn't have an engine. It would have two things that would be SIMILAR to engines.

1). A Booster. This booster is always to the stern of the ship. It accelerates the ship(It is not PROPELLING the ship. It fires controlled bursts that accelerate the ship to the required speed, and then shuts off.).

2). An Gravitational Compensator. It can rotate along the ship to any position. It constantly applies a force, normal to the gravitational acceleration that the ship is experiencing, allowing the pilot to ignore gravity while dogfighting.
I agree that stopping is not a particularly good maneuver to be attempting in combat. Everything after that makes no sense to me.

1) How is accelerating the ship not propelling it? Also remember velocity is relative, acceleration is not.

2) The acceleration due to gravity on the ship is a vector originating at the vessel's center of mass and equal to the sum of all the gravitational vectors on the ship. In 3-space there will be an infinite number of vectors normal to the gravitational vector with origin in the center of mass. All that this construction allows you to do is to move within the plane containing the ship's center of mass and orthogonal to the gravity vector. Since you are applying force on a vector containing the ship's center of mass you cannot actually rotate it, only accelerate it to the sides or forwards/backwards.

In no way does this mean that the pilot does not need to worry about gravity.

skywalker

2010-01-18, 11:23 PM

There are a few things I find questionable about your formulation.

Starships don't need to be aerodynamic yes, but they still need to be structurally sound, and if you are using armor you'll want to reduce surface area as much as practical.

The second problem is that the time it takes to stop is a very simple function of how fast you are moving relative to that thing and how much acceleration your engine can produce. This is true if you have inertial compensators, reactionless drives, or pretty much anything else short of some form of (non-negligable) friction with space.

Like I said, structural problems will exist. It will stress the... "airframe" of the craft to be put thru rapid accel- and decelerations.

What I meant to say (I admit to mistyping/not making myself clear) was that if fighter A is behind fighter B in the atmosphere, fighter B cannot simply rotate about the axis and fire on fighter A. In space, it can.

Thirdly there is no reason that I can really come up with for a fighter to actually dogfight anything. I can't come up with many good reasons for a fighter, but dogfighting is right out. Missiles, preferably fired from whacking great cannons, seem to me to be a much more sensible approach. Fire them from as far away as possible, then make tracks in the other direction.

I agree, but was speaking from a position that if there were space fighters, they would behave very differently from what we are shown in Star Wars, etc.

1) How is accelerating the ship not propelling it? Also remember velocity is relative, acceleration is not.

The idea is that the engine need not burn continuously like it does on Earth, I think. That the ship is only required to make a short burn to propel the craft in the proper direction to go that direction for infinity.

I'm lost about point 2 as well. Like, more lost than you are. Like, failed trigonometry and thus was never allowed to take big-boy calculus or physics lost.

warty goblin

2010-01-18, 11:33 PM

Like I said, structural problems will exist. It will stress the... "airframe" of the craft to be put thru rapid accel- and decelerations.

What I meant to say (I admit to mistyping/not making myself clear) was that if fighter A is behind fighter B in the atmosphere, fighter B cannot simply rotate about the axis and fire on fighter A. In space, it can.

Ah yes, now I see. Indeed this makes sense.

Although it strikes me as being a better design to avoid having to rotate at all, and simply mount your guns on turrets so they can fire backwards. That way you can continue accelerating away from your enemy full burn while filling their lives with pain.

The best way I can come up with to handle this is to have a pilot and a gunner in seperate compartments. The pilot's compartment would be attached to gyroscopes so it would automatically face whichever way the ship was moving relative to a target when in combat. When out of combat set the facing to whichever direction the ship was accelerating. The gunner's compartment would be static. Note that both of these would be entirely inside the ship, and all flying/shooting would be done via instruments.

I agree, but was speaking from a position that if there were space fighters, they would behave very differently from what we are shown in Star Wars, etc.
Indeed. Babylon 5 has a better, but still not particularly good, version of space fighters.

The idea is that the engine need not burn continuously like it does on Earth, I think. That the ship is only required to make a short burn to propel the craft in the proper direction to go that direction for infinity.
Very true, but it still propells the ship. It just doesn't do it continuously. Still, that's my guess as to meaning as well.

I'm lost about point 2 as well. Like, more lost than you are. Like, failed trigonometry and thus was never allowed to take big-boy calculus or physics lost.
Suffice to say that it's pretty much useless insofar as I can make out.

Arcanoi

2010-01-19, 01:28 AM

1) How is accelerating the ship not propelling it? Also remember velocity is relative, acceleration is not.

2) The acceleration due to gravity on the ship is a vector originating at the vessel's center of mass and equal to the sum of all the gravitational vectors on the ship. In 3-space there will be an infinite number of vectors normal to the gravitational vector with origin in the center of mass. All that this construction allows you to do is to move within the plane containing the ship's center of mass and orthogonal to the gravity vector. Since you are applying force on a vector containing the ship's center of mass you cannot actually rotate it, only accelerate it to the sides or forwards/backwards.

In no way does this mean that the pilot does not need to worry about gravity.

1). A propeller continuously applies force to compensate for the fact that your craft is being decelerated by things like air resistance or friction. The booster does not continuously apply force, or the ship will just keep going faster, as the only force that affect a free body in space is gravity, which is compensated by the other device.

2). Yes. Gravity applies many, many vectors from the object's center of mass. But ultimately, when all of these are added up, the object accelerates in a certain direction that is a vector. The Gravitational Compensator applies a force normal to THIS vector, allowing the pilot to disregard gravity in his piloting.

Obviously, the ship would also need several boosters than allow it to spin, but these would not operate like engines.

warty goblin

2010-01-19, 02:01 AM

1). A propeller continuously applies force to compensate for the fact that your craft is being decelerated by things like air resistance or friction. The booster does not continuously apply force, or the ship will just keep going faster, as the only force that affect a free body in space is gravity, which is compensated by the other device.

Fair enough. I would have thought 'accelerates the vessel to a given velocity relative to a given object' a more clear summation, but whatever.

2). Yes. Gravity applies many, many vectors from the object's center of mass. But ultimately, when all of these are added up, the object accelerates in a certain direction that is a vector.

That's what I said.

The Gravitational Compensator applies a force normal to THIS vector, allowing the pilot to disregard gravity in his piloting.
'Normal' (and orthogonal) means perpendicular to. Firing your engines perpendicular to the force of gravity does exactly* nothing to overcome it. This can be proved with a very small amount of pretty basic linear algebra.

Since directionality is arbitrary, it makes sense to choose a set of axis such that vector of the force of gravity is of the form [0,0,g] g>=0. Call this vector G

A vector V normal to G will have the property that <G, V> = 0, where <G,V> is the dot product of the respective vectors. Let V = [a, b, c]. If <G,V> = 0, then a*0 + b*0 + c*g = 0, and it follows that c*g = 0. Since g =/= by hypothesis, c = 0.

Now let C be any vector normal to G. Then C = [a, b, 0], a, b arbitrary. This would represent the acceleration from your Gravitational Compensator. But watch what happens when you add C to G. C + G = [a+0, b+0, 0+g] = [a, b, g] =/= [0,0,0]. Therefore for any vector C normal to G, the sum is non-zero and therefore the space craft will have non-zero net force. Since the spacecraft can be assumed to have non-zero mass, it will experience net acceleration, and indeed just as much acceleration in the 'down' direction as it did before the 'Gravitational Compensator' came into action.

Short version: In order to get zero net force you need to add the addative inverse of the gravity vector. Since normal vectors are linearly independant there is no scalar multiple of C that will make it the addative inverse of G.

QED.

What you want is an engine that produces thrust equal in magnitude to the gravity vector, but in the opposite direction. And you really don't even want that, as it makes orbiting quite implausible, will burn a lot of fuel unneccessarily, and require a lot of moving parts.

*It's not quite exact, but over reasonably short distances it's a very good approximation. If you fired your 'Gravitational Compensator' hard enough you could increase the distance between yourself and an attracting object. That would decrease the force of gravity from that object, but it's hardly a practical means of course correction.

Obviously, the ship would also need several boosters than allow it to spin, but these would not operate like engines.
I'm deeply confused as to this distinction you seem to be making between engines and boosters. I'm not a rocket scientist, but isn't a booster just a supplimentary sort of engine?

Arcanoi

2010-01-19, 02:20 AM

warty goblin

2010-01-19, 02:30 AM

Dervag

2010-01-19, 12:58 PM

An engine continuously applies force to an object. A booster does not. A booster applies force for a limited time. In Star Wars, you see the engines on ships in space constantly firing, applying for in the direction they intend to go for absolutely no reason, as the ship is not decelerating. They have no engines pointed in the reverse to slow the ship down. Continuously-firing engines in space are an extreme waste of resources. Boosters use burns, controlled firings of definite and generally short lengths, to ensure the ship gets where it intends to go, either correcting minute course changes or actually accelerating the ship out of a planet's atmosphere.That's a semantic argument. There are plenty of devices for moving in space that can be called "engines" which are perfectly capable of being used for controlled burns.

Moreover, remember that while long, continuous or near-continuous burns are wasteful in normal space travel, that does not mean they are wasteful in space combat. Coasting ballistically for millions of kilometers in space is a great way to go to Mars... but also a great way to have an enemy pot you from extreme range because you've made your position so predictable.

The need to dodge incoming fire and reduce the enemy's effective range by limiting their ability to predict your future position makes continous engine burns more attractive.

I'll cede the other points to a limited amount of knowledge on my part. I'm only in my second semester of physics. I assumed that a force normal to another force works like the Normal force against gravity, in that it would be equal and opposite.That's a definition confusion. "Normal to" means "perpendicular to." The "normal force" you see in freshman physics is normal to the surface; it represents the force the surface exerts to stop you from being pushed or pulled through it. Thus, as you read this, you sit in a chair. The chair exerts a force normal to the chair (pointing up, whereas the seat of the chair is flat and points left/right). This force is applied to your rear, supporting you against gravity.

Lean against a wall and the wall will exert a normal force normal to the wall, pointing sideways, which will do exactly nothing to stop you from falling. Which is why you can't walk on walls but can theoretically walk on chairs.

At this point, I'd like to posit that any space combat near a large gravitational body would be impractical in the terms displayed in Star Wars, or just about any other series. Orbital combat would involve... lots of orbiting, as any other attempts at moving beyond minute changes would result in the use of resources ships simply couldn't contain while being combat-viable.At the acceleration and energy levels Star Wars ships have, you can afford to pretty much ignore orbital mechanics. In real life we can't, because our spacecraft are limited to a peak delta-V on the order of 10 km/s before they run out of fuel. In Star Wars they have much higher-density power sources, and engines that can hover against gravity for long periods of time. So they don't need to worry so much about the gravity of a planet, because their engines are powerful enough to compensate for gravity the way a plane's engine would compensate for a crosswind.

EvilSun

2010-11-11, 03:34 AM

Hello all, and bevore you ask yourself: Yes, i actually did sign up for this thread :smallbiggrin:

I just find it quite interesting, since I am a big SW and WH40k fan for quite some time (for some things you just never get too old xD )

ok, so we are discussing Jedi vs Adeptus Custodes:

These boys and girls:
http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs23/i/2007/326/4/8/JEDI_TANAKE_TRANG_by_rocketraygun.jpg

matching those boys:
http://hippiefreak12.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/constantin_valdor.jpg

So what do we know about both sides?
Jedi: A brotherhood (sisterhood) of warrior-mystics, composed of various races with vastly different individual skills whose powers vary a great deal from fluff source to fluff source - which is indeed a problem when wanting to compare them to anything... well, and on top of that, they are the "mojo" of the Star Wars universe, the thing that makes Star Wars... well, Star Wars.

Adeptus Custodes: It gets a bit tricky with those guys. First of all, WH40k fluff can change quite radical over the years. Secondly, there never has been much fluff about the Empys personal guard anyway, just indirect hints about what they actually are, what their powers are, how they are made and so on.
So, whatever I say now may be outdated/contradictory to other fluff past/current/future or simply the product of some bolter-porn lover.
The custodes are said to be amongst the first genetically altered warriors used by the emperor during the conquest of earth bevore the Primarch project. So, in WH40k, old is not "bad" or "weaker", quite the contrary. The Primarchs are wholly artificial human looking entities created by extremely advanced genetics and the use of warp - in the WH40k universe, Primarchs are about as powerful as a single individual can get - only gods and extremely powerful daemons topping them.
Constantin Valor, Chief Custodes, beat Horus, a Primarch, in a sparring match. :smallcool:
Whatever this says about the other Custodes is up for interpretation, but those boys are tough. Tougher by a few orders than Space Marines (who have problems even following the movements of an armoured Primarch, compare "Flight of the Eisenstein" with Garro in front of Rogal Dorn).

And a small goodie: Constantin Valor is still around in Wh40k, making him more than 10 millenia old - it is save to assume some of his buddies from the old days are still around. One point brought up was that they lack combat practice, because they stayd in the imperial palace for 10 000 years. Well, according to newer fluff, the following happened:
The emperor was trying to create a human webway - access, when the Primarch Magnus sent him a psychic message about Horus betrayal - which happened to damage the webway access, which resulted in hordes of Daemons attacking the Empy and his Custodes right under the palace. Thing is, the webway never got shut properly. So we can assume the Custodes see some action down there.

As you may notice, Wh40k operates in a bit different magnitudes than Star Wars - just think about space battles, a point brought up here. In Star Wars, ships fight up close to each other (if the movies are anything to go by), in Wh40k, laser lances need 3-4 seconds to cross the distance between battleships in a "normal" scenario, battles need hours to be won or lost.

So, a matchup between a group of Jedi and a group of Custodes...
We know what Jedi can do in battle: force speed, precognition, force push, force pull, force jump - did i miss any relevant force powers for combat? Beside that, they are normal humans/whatever, not different from any other non-force users in their Universe.

And custodes? Well, we know they should be better than Marines, and we know that they use Space Marine Power Armour. We do not know how they are /were created, but if they are anything like Space Marines, they are barely human anymore.

As for Power Armour: Fluff clearly states that it makes the wearer faster and stronger - they can move with it like it wasnt there. It looks bulky, but it is not.

Who would win? In confindes space, my bet is clearly on the Adeptus Custodes. Their bulk, resilence, strenght, speed and weapons give them a clear advantage that the force abilitys just cant negate - and yes, maybe lightsabers can cut through SM armour, but this armour is thick. Cutting it with 1 strike at critical location wont be possible - besides, the Custodes wont stand still and give them time to melt their way through.

Open space? it gets tricky here. If the Jedi can throw the custodes down somewhere - force push ftw. also, the more space the less effecive firepower becomes, especially if the Jedi can actually block bolter rounds and lasers. However, if the Custodes stay close to each other - those dudes are heavy and have incredible strenght - you need a major force push for one, and a group of them will need more force from the same angle - and they will move fast, trying to close the distance. SM will always try to close distance, because here their strenght, speed, superior reach, stamina, bulk and armour count the most. And in close combat.... ^^

Conclusion: Jedi can potentially win, however, their equipment is really unfit for this kind of opposition, they lack any kind of physical improvement that keeps them alive after a hit... I would go with the big dudes in that one.