PDA

View Full Version : Monster ECL fix?



RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-14, 01:11 PM
Question playgrounders,

I'm trying to think of ways to balance out the players wanting to play Monsters as player characters.

Well I think i may have a solution and i wanted to know what the playground thought.

If the monster in question has racial HD and no LA then
Use the racial HD as a base then add class levels as normal.

If the monster has LA but no HD then
Take the monsters current LA and convert that to Racial HD appropriate for
its type.

If a monster has both LA and HD:
If a monster has a greater LA then HD use the LA for the amount of HD
If a monster has a greater HD then LA use the HD and drop the LA.
If a monster has the same HD and LA use the HD and drop the LA.

I know that A monster will still be slightly behind a normal race. Which is ok in my book. But i wanted to here what people thought?

Oslecamo
2010-01-14, 01:23 PM
Monsters are just too damn varied for there to be a standard system that works well every time. They just weren't intended to be used by players.

Anything with powerfull SLAs at will for example. Greater teleport spam at level 6 with a Succubus will cause the DM headaches to no end.

So really, the best solution is probably to discuss with the DM and create a custom monster that will not wreck the campaign(or die in 1 hit) when in the hands of a player.


Altough giving free HD for the LA is a nice idea.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-14, 01:25 PM
Apply this to the Nymph.

Now we have a 7HD, 7th level druid (casting) with superior stats and several powerful SLA's, usable at will.

The Pixie? a 4hd perma invisible flyer. 1 level of rogue, and he's a better rogue, by far, than a level 5 rogue.

Gnaeus
2010-01-14, 01:31 PM
I don't think it will work as anything other than a starting point. You really need to look at these things on a case by case basis.

For example, under your system, a Lillend comes out as just a 7 HD creature. It has full BAB, good skill points, fly 70, +5 natural armor, +10 str, +6 dex, +4 con, +4 int, +6 wis, +8 cha, Immunity to poison, fire resistance, large size, natural attacks, spell like abilities and casting and music abilities as a level 6 bard. Who would ever play a humanoid bard if they can play that? With its listed +6 ecl it is pathetic. With 0 ecl it is broken good. You kinda need to eyeball things to see where they fall.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-14, 01:42 PM
Hmm...

Well one i am the DM, so I'm trying to figure out a standard ish system. I know there will be exceptions to the rules but im looking for some thing that will work 90% of the time.

The pixie example doesn't seem that bad to me...
The nymph is bad... i was worried about things with SLA's and what not...

Mabye there should be an amendment of some sort...
Like:
If a monster has an SLA add a HD per SLA.
or should instead we change the conversion to LA from HD. Though the problem with that i would worry about there squishyness factor... mabye allow an HP bonus equal to there LA * con bonus? that I would think would help there HP issue....


Actualy on that matter has any one even attempted to make a proper LA/HD guide or any thing along the lines of balancing it?


Oslecamo:

Hmm maybe some sort of Formula for converting existing LA to HD...

Duke of URL
2010-01-14, 01:51 PM
Giving RHD for LA is a bad idea -- the main reason it's LA, and not just more RHD in the first place is to make the monster physically weaker (HD, BAB, saves) than other creatures of the same ECL to compensate for its superior statistics and special abilities.

Frankly, I'd just make LA buyoff standard, and allow +1 LA buyoff per 3 class levels, period, instead of 1st buyoff at class level = 3 x current LA.

For example, the Pixie could buy off her +4 LA at CL 3 (ECL 7--> ECL 6), CL 6 (ECL 9 --> ECL 8), CL 9 (ECL 11 --> ECL 10), and CL 12 (ECL 13 --> ECL 12). Of course, this would put her quite a bit of XP behind as well.

Under the UA system, the same pixie would have to be ECL 31 (buying off to ECL 30) to be completely rid of LA, and suffer a greater total XP loss in doing so.

Gnaeus
2010-01-14, 02:41 PM
Hmm...

Well one i am the DM, so I'm trying to figure out a standard ish system. I know there will be exceptions to the rules but im looking for some thing that will work 90% of the time.

I don't think there is such a critter. My best guess would be take current ECL, subtract 1+(1/4 remaining LA rounded down) but I am sure it still doesn't work regularly.

The problem is, there are some monsters that are actually GOOD for their LA, at least for some builds. Pixie and Marrulurk are 2 examples of things that are actually strong for their appropriate builds with no modification. If you lump them in with all the stuff that was intentionally way over ECLed, they will shine.

Marrulurk has 3 Monstrous humanoid HD (D8 hp, full BAB). Normally +1 ECL. It gets 2 free feats, precise shot and Point Blank shot, + Martial weapon Longbow. +2d6 sneak attack. Poison use + Death attack like an assassin. Great stats. Natural Armor. Darkvision. A level of hearing that falls just below blindsense. Big racial + on a number of rogue skills. Fire resistance. A crummy breath weapon. No SLAs, so your SLA adjustment won't help.

At 3HD, Marrulurk is way superior to 3 levels of rogue for any sneak attack build, especially any ranged one. Heck, between its natural armor, full BaB and stat bonuses, it is probably better than fighter or barbarian for any fighter builds that don't need large size. Even at 3+1 LA, it is pretty darn good.



The pixie example doesn't seem that bad to me...
The nymph is bad... i was worried about things with SLA's and what not...

Mabye there should be an amendment of some sort...
Like:
If a monster has an SLA add a HD per SLA.
or should instead we change the conversion to LA from HD. Though the problem with that i would worry about there squishyness factor... mabye allow an HP bonus equal to there LA * con bonus? that I would think would help there HP issue....

So an Imp comes out at 7 hd because it has Detect Magic and Detect Good at will? I can't see playing a 7 HD imp in a party.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-14, 02:53 PM
I don't think there is such a critter. My best guess would be take current ECL, subtract 1+(1/4 remaining LA rounded down) but I am sure it still doesn't work regularly.

The problem is, there are some monsters that are actually GOOD for their LA, at least for some builds. Pixie and Marrulurk are 2 examples of things that are actually strong for their appropriate builds with no modification. If you lump them in with all the stuff that was intentionally way over ECLed, they will shine.

Marrulurk has 3 Monstrous humanoid HD (D8 hp, full BAB). Normally +1 ECL. It gets 2 free feats, precise shot and Point Blank shot, + Martial weapon Longbow. +2d6 sneak attack. Poison use + Death attack like an assassin. Great stats. Natural Armor. Darkvision. A level of hearing that falls just below blindsense. Big racial + on a number of rogue skills. Fire resistance. A crummy breath weapon. No SLAs, so your SLA adjustment won't help.

At 3HD, Marrulurk is way superior to 3 levels of rogue for any sneak attack build, especially any ranged one. Heck, between its natural armor, full BaB and stat bonuses, it is probably better than fighter or barbarian for any fighter builds that don't need large size. Even at 3+1 LA, it is pretty darn good.


So an Imp comes out at 7 hd because it has Detect Magic and Detect Good at will? I can't see playing a 7 HD imp in a party.

Hmm fair enough...

I'll have to see if there is a formula that seems to work when i get home from work...
I wonder if mabye the problem is with the way they are currently LA'ed and HD'ed? maby ea pixie needs a +1 la?

Starbuck_II
2010-01-14, 02:59 PM
Anothe decent one:
From Stormwreck, Nereid (3 HD, LA +3): they displacement always on (which is hard to gain pre-epic). Cha to AC, a couple spells, at will drowning touch ability, etc.

While aquatic they have an at will spell that lets them breath air in addition.
1/day, Summon multiple Water Elementals, etc.

They are almost too good for their ECL.

Starscream
2010-01-14, 03:04 PM
Frankly, I'd just make LA buyoff standard, and allow +1 LA buyoff per 3 class levels, period, instead of 1st buyoff at class level = 3 x current LA.

This is pretty much what I do. A slightly more generous application of LA buyoff can fix a lot of problems.

Another thing I've been known to do is give every player 1-3 "free" levels at the beginning. These levels can be used for the following:
1) Offsetting the LA of a monster
2) Applying a template
3) Taking levels in your race's Racial Paragon class

I started this out as a way to make a player's choice of race more important. At level one a human rogue and an elven rogue might be different, but by level 20 the abilities granted by their class and items have far outweighed any effects their race gave them, and they will be almost identical.

The racial paragon classes make picking your species have a much bigger long term effect, but are typically subpar for most builds, so few people bother with them. Giving it away for free helps diversify the characters, and also encourages them to play more exotic creatures.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-14, 03:06 PM
hmm i can see where you guys are going...

I'm also trying to think of things to keep balance at lower levels as i think only one of my games has gone past 15...

Gnaeus
2010-01-14, 03:22 PM
Oh, or almost any of the lycanthropes would be bad.

Take Natural Were Dire Badger for a melee type for example.
+4 Str, +6 Dex, +8 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Natural armor and DR 10 Silver, at the cost of 3 HD. Pretty much an unstoppable tank for anything without silver weapons at that level.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-01-14, 03:32 PM
I'll have to see if there is a formula that seems to work when i get home from work...

There is. Where were you all a few weeks ago for my last thread?? I even gave a way to double-check my original ECL rebalancing!

You will notice that the RHD is superfluous, dare I say, should be a bonus to the LA. The LA takes into account the SLAs. Racial HD casting has other caveats.

From BG:
ECL = Floor[HD/2-LA] + LA + Class levels

0) This variant is done on a character by character basis. Some in the party might use this but, not all must.

1) Racial HD does not normally add to ECL. This makes most races ECL = Class Levels + LA. For exceptions see below:

2) The racial HD does not get con bonus to HP as class levels do. DMs should be strongly encouraged to waive this exception if they want PCs with more normal amounts of HP - IMO PC HP is way too low compared to the damage they can receive.

3) If a race has racial spellcasting related to its racial HD, remove that abilities racial power source up to it's HD. For instance an psychic Illithid would have no psuedo psion levels but a Spellweaver would still have 2 psuedo sorcerer levels. Remember that this variant is done in a character by character basis allowing a psionic illithid to not use this variant while a spellweaver in the party does.

4) Skill points for the first level are not added twice. So a character with racial HD and one class level may choose either to have the 4x(_+int) for either according to the HD or the class level's skill point allotment.

5) Skill points from racial HD do not allow a character to exceed the normal 3+ECL max since the HD no longer count towards the ECL.

6) BAB still counts as long as the total BaB from HD and ECL is doesn't exceed 20 (if it would exceed 20 it is instead set to 20). However PrC prereqs may at DM discretion not use the racial BAB especially if it would not otherwise be possible for that PrC to be in the build later on.

7) Natural healing rate is based off of ECL and so is not affected by the free racial HD, though this might seem a bit counter intuitive.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-14, 03:43 PM
Ya templates are a whole other beast i wasn't thinking about... i was just talking strait up monsters Templates are another game/formula/what not.


There is. Where were you all a few weeks ago for my last thread?? I even gave a way to double-check my original ECL rebalancing!

You will notice that the RHD is superfluous, dare I say, should be a bonus to the LA. The LA takes into account the SLAs. Racial HD casting has other caveats.

From BG:

So would a bugbear have 0 HD and +1 LA or 1HD and +1 LA?

pres_man
2010-01-14, 04:09 PM
What I do is for each LA, the PC gets 1d4 HD, 1/2 BA, 1/3 Saves, 2+Int skills (racial skills are class skills or first character class if no racial HD). Basically for each LA, they get the equivalent of a commoner level. This way, they are little tougher than the standard rules, but hardly overpowered. Also it lets ECL = Total HD, which makes calculating feats and when you get ability adjustments easier.

Runestar
2010-01-14, 07:26 PM
You are probably just better off evaluating each monster individually on its own merits.

awa
2010-01-14, 07:42 PM
one way to evaluate at least for simple monsters is see if your monster charecter wins roughly 50 percent of the time in a fight against a standard class with the same specialty.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-14, 08:18 PM
Another bad one?

Dragons. Their RHD's are already top notch. Give em their LA for free? Busted.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-01-15, 04:14 AM
So would a bugbear have 0 HD and +1 LA or 1HD and +1 LA?Neither. The LA and RHD don't change, only their impact on ECL. So 2 free RHD (from the LA) but 1 RHD that counts normally and 1 LA. You have some minor boosts but you can still get ninth level spells in core :smallsmile:

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-15, 04:53 AM
The pixie example doesn't seem that bad to me...


Let's look:

4 HD (fey HD offer good skills)
-4 Str, +8 Dex, +6 Int, +4 Wis, +6 Cha
A pair of bonus feats (dodge, weapon finesse)
Several SLA's, usable 1-3/day
Permanent Greater Invisibility
Fly speed
DR 10/Cold Iron, SR 15+Class levels.

Let's make this a rogue 1 (ECL 5)...
Str 10, Dex 25, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 14, Cha 14 (32pb +1stat boost in dex)
HP: 23 (comparable to a level 5 rogue)
Damage on attack: 1d4+1d6(sneak attack) - -2d6 from rogue
DR 10/Cold iron (will likely get -10 damage)
SR 16 (50% failure rate on equal CL spells)

Now, while damage output is, on average 7 less, the stats are much better, the defenses are far better, and there's a host of fairly powerful magic abilities to go with.

Not as bad as Nymph, but still, quite strong, moreso than a halfling rogue. It's higher than that rogue would be able to get in Dex and Int, even if it threw all its points into 1 or the other.