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View Full Version : How powerful would a unarmed barbarian build be? (3.5)



Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 01:19 PM
A friend of mine has challenged me to a 3.5 D&D duel, he claims that an unarmed barbarian would be extremely powerful, he has already made his character, a 13th level ogre barbarian, I am planning on playing on the one weakness of the build: a laughable will save. I will be a enchantment-specialized wizard, how difficult should I expect the duel to be? I will be a 15th level wizard.

drengnikrafe
2010-01-14, 01:20 PM
Obligatory Wizard is always greater than Melee post. I think we usually have one of those.

Mongoose87
2010-01-14, 01:20 PM
Maybe he used a few monk levels? Not that that would actually make it good, or be legal.

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 01:21 PM
Maybe he used a few monk levels? Not that that would actually make it good, or be legal.

Nope. Straight barbarian.

jiriku
2010-01-14, 01:24 PM
He's assuming that you're going to allow him the opportunity to roll to hit. You're not, so you will win.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-14, 01:26 PM
A friend of mine has challenged me to a 3.5 D&D duel, he claims that an unarmed barbarian would be extremely powerful, he has already made his character, a 13th level ogre barbarian, I am planning on playing on the one weakness of the build: a laughable will save. I will be a enchantment-specialized wizard, how difficult should I expect the duel to be? I will be a 15th level wizard.

Grease + Will save spell. Also, use Superior Invisibility.

Narazil
2010-01-14, 01:28 PM
Can he actually do anything against Fly/Alter Self/Overland Flight? If not, you've already won.

If he can, you'll need to find another spell or two, such as Invisibility, then you've already won.

You can't really lose this, no matter what cheese he pulls. You can probably beat him with a Wizard a lot lower than level 15.

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 01:30 PM
Can he actually do anything against Fly/Alter Self/Overland Flight? If not, you've already won.

If he can, you'll need to find another spell or two, such as Invisibility, then you've already won.

You can't really lose this, no matter what cheese he pulls. You can probably beat him with a Wizard a lot lower than level 15.

Didn't think of that, he has no defense against an air-based foe.

Tehnar
2010-01-14, 01:30 PM
I'd say you are better hitting him with a reflex spell then a will one. In the group Im currently DMing, the 11th level barbarian has +17 on his will save while raging.

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 01:31 PM
I'd say you are better hitting him with a reflex spell then a will one. In the group Im currently DMing, the 11th level barbarian has +17 on his will save while raging.

This guy has a pathetic +4.

His saves:
Fort +12
Ref +5
Will +4

NEO|Phyte
2010-01-14, 01:32 PM
Not quite an ogre, but I made an unarmed barbarian once (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=22580) for a game I was DMing. Never got to use him, but eh.

Indon
2010-01-14, 01:33 PM
You don't really need to go that fancy, unless you know the guy to be an extremely effective optimiser, or you're opening up all sourcebooks or something.

First round of combat, cast Stoneskin. Barbarian runs up, has difficulty breaking your DR, let alone dealing damage. Each subsequent turn, take a five-foot-step back and blast the Barbarian with something. Say, metamagiced Scorching Ray.

You don't even really need to pump your Int, just have enough to cast your spells, pump Dex, and the Barbarian might not even be able to reliably hit.

Mongoose87
2010-01-14, 01:33 PM
Where is this duel happening? If it's PbP, I totally want to see what he tries.

EDIT: He's not using Bear Warrior, is he?

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 01:34 PM
Sounds like he'd want to get some grappling going. Dimension Door and Abrupt Jaunt will be your friends.

Narazil
2010-01-14, 01:35 PM
Wizard 8/Warlock 1/Commoner 6.

Spell list: Alter Self, Greater Invisibility.

Feats: Extend Spell

Cast Extended Alter Self, turn into something with wings. Cast Greater Invisibility, fly up 15', and shoot 1d6 Eldritch Blasts at the Barbarian.
What could possibly go wrong? :smallwink:

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 01:36 PM
Where is this duel happening? If it's PbP, I totally want to see what he tries.

EDIT: He's not using Bear Warrior, is he?

It is happening IRL.
He is not using any prestige classes.

Gnaeus
2010-01-14, 01:36 PM
He could probably beat a monk. Not a wizard.

jiriku
2010-01-14, 01:38 PM
Yeah, at 15th level, there are so many ways you could defeat a basic melee threat that we could make a multi-page thread just listing them all. The only important thing to keep in mind is that you do not permit him roll dice against you. Fly, greater invisibility, celerity, swift etherealness, contingency + dimension door, wall of stone, wall of iron, wall of ice, whatever. If he really presses you hard, greater mirror image, but it shouldn't come to that.

Honestly, I think you're going easy on him if you use enchantments. Those allow a save and can be blocked by a potion of protection from evil. My approach would be something like invisible spectral hand + maximized shivering touch + throw a warm blanket over the shivering wretch and call it a day.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-14, 01:39 PM
So, spells to prepare:

1. Superior Invis.
2. Fly
3. Grease, or other immobilizing spell such as Resilient Sphere
4 Will save or suck.
5. Dimension Door, or a lesser equivalent such as Dimension Hop.
6. Empowered Enervation
7. True Strike
8. Ray of Clumsiness
9. Prestidigitation

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 01:41 PM
He also has a pretty awful touch AC, a 16, but his flat-footed AC is a 30, standard is 31.

Mongoose87
2010-01-14, 01:41 PM
Better idea: build a Jumplomancer and force him to love you.

Narazil
2010-01-14, 01:42 PM
He also has a pretty awful touch AC, a 16, but his flat-footed AC is a 30, standard is 31.
It doesn't really matter. As long as he can't dispel magic, fly, have True Seeing or the likes, he's pretty much lost no matter what.

This isn't really a fair fight. At all.

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 01:42 PM
It doesn't really matter. As long as he can't dispel magic, fly, have True Seeing or the likes, he's pretty much lost no matter what.

He has none of those, so he is pretty much screwed.

Narazil
2010-01-14, 01:44 PM
Does he have any sort of ranged attack? What's his jump mod?

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 01:45 PM
Make sure that you take Improved Initiative too, in addition to having a Contingency set up. Maybe a Hummingbird familiar if you don't want Abrupt Jaunt. Absolutely positively use Quicken Spell metamagic to crank out Fly as soon as you can, because he will probably insist on starting the duel unbuffed. You want to fly before you go invisible, because while Listen can be used to pinpoint an invisible creature, an unarmed Barbarian can't do jack against a flier. Maybe Jump, but that's where Abrupt Jaunt comes in handy.

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 01:45 PM
Does he have any sort of ranged attack? What's his jump mod?

He has no ranged attacks, but his jump mod is a +10.

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 01:47 PM
He has no ranged attacks, but his jump mod is a +10.
It's a DC32 Jump check to jump 8 feet up, which means he'll never be able to make it. As long as you're a good 30 feet or so up (accounting for reach) he won't be able to hurt you at all.

Edit: Do you have access to his character sheet or something?

Narazil
2010-01-14, 01:48 PM
Any preparation time? If you can get just 1 round, you can pretty much beat him by level 4 without even trying.
Alter Self, get wings, fly up 30', start shooting Magic Missiles at him, maybe bring a bow or something.

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 01:50 PM
It's a DC32 Jump check to jump 8 feet up, which means he'll never be able to make it. As long as you're a good 30 feet or so up (accounting for reach) he won't be able to hurt you at all.

Edit: Do you have access to his character sheet or something?

Yeah, why? You wish to peruse it? He put it up on mythweavers.
Look to your hearts content. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=178955)

Narazil
2010-01-14, 01:51 PM
Yeah, why? You wish to peruse it? He put it up on mythweavers.
I think he's wondering why you know all his modifiers and stuff.
It's a lot easier to build a character when you know what the other is bringing: Ha, he doesn't have True Sight or See Invisibility? I'll just use Invisibility.

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 01:57 PM
Why's he adding his total melee attack bonus to his damage? Far as I can see, his damage bonus should be +15. An Ogre is also a Large creature, which he does not account for in his to-hit and damage calculations. He is wearing armour, so his speed is 40ft, not 50ft. Furthermore, an ECL15 Ogre Barbarian would only have 9 Barbarian levels because Ogres have 4 Racial HD.
I have a creeping suspicion that your friend doesn't understand D&D very thoroughly.
As a Large creature, an Orge has -1 to hit, a 1d4 unarmed strike and 10ft reach, meaning that on average he could reach you with a Jump check if you were 20 feet up, but no more than that, even 5ft more being an impossibility.

Xiander
2010-01-14, 01:59 PM
I looked through the spell list, and found three eigth level spells that could take him out of the fight without a saving throw...

Narazil
2010-01-14, 02:00 PM
Why's he adding his total melee attack bonus to his damage? Far as I can see, his damage bonus should be +15. An Ogre is also a Large creature, which he does not account for in his to-hit and damage calculations. He is wearing armour, so his speed is 40ft, not 50ft. Furthermore, an ECL15 Ogre Barbarian would only have 9 Barbarian levels because Ogres have 4 Racial HD.
I have a creeping suspicion that your friend doesn't understand D&D very thoroughly.
Yea, struck my eye aswell. Obviously he doesn't, seeing as he appearently agreed to duel a Wizard. As a melee class. With LA. Without any useful Magic Items.


I looked through the spell list, and found three eigth level spells that could take him out of the fight without a saving throw...
One ranged maximized Shivering Touch should do the trick. 18 Dex damage right there, against his pitiful 16 touch AC.

Gandariel
2010-01-14, 02:00 PM
mmh, if he says he can beat your 15 lvl wizard he MUST have a strategy...

so let's try to be careful

first round: Maze
he's blocked for some time
buff yourself, get greater invisibility and fly, and whatever else
then, when he comes back, you have maximum chances of facing whatever his strategy is.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-14, 02:00 PM
even with forgetting or "forgetting" do you really think this guy has a chance anyway Flickerdart?

Narazil
2010-01-14, 02:02 PM
mmh, if he says he can beat your 15 lvl wizard he MUST have a strategy...

so let's try to be careful

first round: Maze
he's blocked for some time
buff yourself, get greater invisibility and fly, and whatever else
then, when he comes back, you have maximum chances of facing whatever his strategy is.
Did you see his sheet? First round: Ranged (what's the right name? Turning touch into ranged touch?) Maximized Shiver Touch
Second round: Coup de grace.

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 02:03 PM
even with forgetting or "forgetting" do you really think this guy has a chance anyway Flickerdart?
If he was a Drunken Master with a 10ft pole as an improvised weapon, I could see him trying to snag the Wizard down from the air on the first turn and then grappling him to death, which, while an awful tactic, has a semblance of logic behind it. This guy couldn't hurt anything airborne or invisible no matter how hard he tried.

tyckspoon
2010-01-14, 02:03 PM
..that is.. really, really sad. He spent *all* his money on a +5 Breastplate of Spell Resistance.. and it's not even enough SR to make a difference. And the Bracers of Armor don't stack with it. And he's ignoring the actual rules for playing an Ogre (it should have 4 racial hit dice in addition to the +2 LA, making it a level 19 effective character.) And his unarmed strike damage is hilariously wrong (I.. can't even figure out what he's doing there.) And his speed is wrong, unless that breastplate is Mithral and he just didn't think that was worth mentioning...


Frankly? There are so many rules errors here that it's probably not worth doing a fight against this character as it exists. You will (a) completely smash it with any tactic you feel like using and (b) probably get accused of cheating because he will not understand what you did.

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 02:04 PM
Why's he adding his total melee attack bonus to his damage? Far as I can see, his damage bonus should be +15. An Ogre is also a Large creature, which he does not account for in his to-hit and damage calculations. He is wearing armour, so his speed is 40ft, not 50ft. Furthermore, an ECL15 Ogre Barbarian would only have 9 Barbarian levels because Ogres have 4 Racial HD.
I have a creeping suspicion that your friend doesn't understand D&D very thoroughly.
As a Large creature, an Orge has -1 to hit, a 1d4 unarmed strike and 10ft reach, meaning that on average he could reach you with a Jump check if you were 20 feet up, but no more than that, even 5ft more being an impossibility.

Yeah, he is a real newbie when it comes to optimization, still can't understand how druids and wizards are overpowered.

Narazil
2010-01-14, 02:04 PM
..that is.. really, really sad. He spent *all* his money on a +5 Breastplate of Spell Resistance.. and it's not even enough SR to make a difference. And the Bracers of Armor don't stack with it. And he's ignoring the actual rules for playing an Ogre (it should have 4 racial hit dice in addition to the +2 LA, making it a level 19 effective character.) And his unarmed strike damage is hilariously wrong (I.. can't even figure out what he's doing there.) And his speed is wrong, unless that breastplate is Mithral and he just didn't think that was worth mentioning...


Frankly? There are so many rules errors here that it's probably not worth doing a fight against this character as it exists. You will (a) completely smash it with any tactic you feel like using and (b) probably get accused of cheating because he will not understand what you did.
How can a person think "I fly 30' up into the air, and end my round" is a cheating move?


Yeah, he is a real newbie when it comes to optimization, still can't understand how druids and wizards are overpowered.
You could show him. I mean, buff yourself through the stratosphere, and then let him try and hit you. Use the Batman Wizard tricks, teleport around, fly, be invisible, summon, ect. until he gets the point.

Not saying it's a good idea, but. :smallbiggrin:

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 02:07 PM
Now that I look, his Touch AC is wrong as well. It would only be 10 (10+ 1 DEX -1 size). The bracers and the armour don't count for it. Also, he has some phantom +5 shield in there.

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 02:09 PM
Now that I look, his Touch AC is wrong as well. It would only be 10 (10+ 1 DEX -1 size). The bracers and the armour don't count for it. Also, he has some phantom +5 shield in there.

I am guessing that would be the character sheet device being confused, seeing as how he put his +5 bracer in his "Shield/protective item" section.

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 02:09 PM
I am guessing that would be the character sheet device being confused, seeing as how he put his +5 bracer in his "Shield/protective item" section.
Maybe, but that doesn't explain the Misc +5.

Oslecamo
2010-01-14, 02:11 PM
I would say that it would be much more profitable to clarify to that players the basic rules of optimization. You're not going to teach him anything by dropping a super optimized build when he can't even figure out his touch AC.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-14, 02:11 PM
I occasionally fit misc. bonuses in there and they add to touch AC as well.

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 02:11 PM
Maybe, but that doesn't explain the Misc +5.
Probably another goof-up from him, I will be sure to inform him of the numerous issues with the char sheet.

Narazil
2010-01-14, 02:12 PM
Maybe, but that doesn't explain the Misc +5.
Well, he most likely added either his armor or his bracers' AC bonus to his touch AC.

The sad thing is, even with the ECL 19 build, he can't touch a level 4 Wizard.

Mando Knight
2010-01-14, 02:12 PM
I could beat him with an evoker.

1.) Forcecage.
2.) Blast.
3.) ????
4.) Profit!

Crow
2010-01-14, 02:16 PM
You guys are making this much harder than it needs to be. Just use Hold Monster (even heighten it if you need to) and coup de grace him with a scythe. Keep doing it until he runs out of hitpoints or until he fails the fort save.

You don't even need to be proficient since you don't need to make an attack roll. Even with 25 point buy you can get an 18 in intelligence and a 14 in strength.

Narazil
2010-01-14, 02:18 PM
You guys are making this much harder than it needs to be. Just use Hold Monster (even heighten it if you need to) and coup de grace him with a scythe. Keep doing it until he runs out of hitpoints or until he fails the fort save.

You don't even need to be proficient since you don't need to make an attack roll. Even with 25 point buy you can get an 18 in intelligence and a 14 in strength.
Even that is not needed. Alter Self is 20 minutes duration at level 4, correct? Wizard 4 / Warlock 1, Alter Self to get wings, shoot Eldritch Blasts. Should be able to wittle him down in 20 minutes time.

AirGuitarGod32
2010-01-14, 02:20 PM
I hate to agree, but if he's unable to chuck a weapon, see invisibility, or dispel magic. You win.

However, I think you should taunt him, make him never want to duel you again. Only one thing can make an angry barbarian regret fighting you: Tibbit.

Be a Tibbit Sorcerer 5/Warlock 1/Eldritch Theurge 9

Stay in cat form, which gives you a bonus to AC, then become invisible, don't fly. While invisible, blast him with an Eldritch Blast spellwoven with your favorite damage touch attack spell (I personally think a Flesh to Stone would be HILARIOUS). Use your favorite blast invocations on top of this, and metamagic the spell to your maximum "One round, you die" effect.

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 02:21 PM
A tibbit? :smallconfused: What in the name of the 5(3.0 and 3.5 count as two different ones) editions of greatness is that?

AirGuitarGod32
2010-01-14, 02:22 PM
A tibbit? :smallconfused: What in the name of the 5 editions of greatness is that?

From Dragon Magazine Compendium, they are a halflilg-like race that can shapeshift into a kitten

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 02:23 PM
Nah, stick to straight Wizard. If you use a complicated race/multiclass, he's much more likely to yell foul than if you do this by the PHB or such.

AirGuitarGod32
2010-01-14, 02:26 PM
Nah, stick to straight Wizard. If you use a complicated race/multiclass, he's much more likely to yell foul than if you do this by the PHB or such.

Well EXCUSE me, Mr. "Fun Idea Police". I was simply submitting an option. What do you want? Maybe I should not have added a post and not enlightened a playgrounder on one of my favorite non-core races (Beaten by Tasloi and beats Warforged)

Narazil
2010-01-14, 02:31 PM
Well EXCUSE me, Mr. "Fun Idea Police". I was simply submitting an option. What do you want? Maybe I should not have added a post and not enlightened a playgrounder on one of my favorite non-core races (Beaten by Tasloi and beats Warforged)
He's just posting very relevant information, relax dude.

I agree, don't confuse/embaress him. I strongly suggest against using my build, as it would be a pretty lame strategy.
Yes, you can win in the first round, and show him one-trick ponies work, especially with knowledge of his bad saves ect. - or, you could simply build a Wizard with the same ECL and take standard choices, and.. Well, win in the first round, or extend the combat long enough for him to get the point (summons, fly away and buff, ect) .

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 02:31 PM
Well EXCUSE me, Mr. "Fun Idea Police". I was simply submitting an option. What do you want? Maybe I should not have added a post and not enlightened a playgrounder on one of my favorite non-core races (Beaten by Tasloi and beats Warforged)
Your suggestion is not inherently more valid than mine.

AirGuitarGod32
2010-01-14, 02:35 PM
Your suggestion is not inherently more valid than mine.

It just read like you were diminishing the build. Sorry.

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 02:38 PM
It just read like you were diminishing the build. Sorry.
I'm currently running a Tauric Thri-Kreen Monstrous Crab//Totemist, and planning to grab Vampire on top of that. I don't think you could top me for ridiculosity. :smallbiggrin:

Mystic Muse
2010-01-14, 02:40 PM
I'm currently running a Tauric Thri-Kreen Monstrous Crab//Totemist, and planning to grab Vampire on top of that. I don't think you could top me for ridiculosity. :smallbiggrin:

oh really?

alien Nazi Communist half-fiend celestial draconic vampire goblin ninja cyborg doppelganger fire necromental piranha ogre beholders from hell

AirGuitarGod32
2010-01-14, 02:41 PM
I'm currently running a Tauric Thri-Kreen Monstrous Crab//Totemist, and planning to grab Vampire on top of that. I don't think you could top me for ridiculosity. :smallbiggrin:

I once ran a half-troll pixie Ninja//Monk who later obtained the ability via a bite to become a Were-Panda

Narazil
2010-01-14, 02:41 PM
oh really?

alien Nazi Communist half-fiend celestial draconic vampire goblin ninja cyborg doppelganger fire necromental piranha ogre beholders from hell
Pretty sure that's not a viable build. I mean, goblin, ogre, beholder, doppelganger, piranha and fire necromental are all races and not templates, right?

Mystic Muse
2010-01-14, 02:42 PM
Pretty sure that's not a viable build. I mean, goblin, ogre, beholder, doppelganger, piranha and fire necromental are all races and not templates, right?

STOP STOMPING ON MY DREAM!

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 02:43 PM
This thread went off-topic fast...

And I just got word from him, he wishes to delay the fight, as he wants to test the build against a SWASHBUCKLER another friend made first, now he will get overconfident after curbstomping him and cry foul when I curbstomp him.

Narazil
2010-01-14, 02:43 PM
STOP STOMPING ON MY DREAM!
Maybe if you experiment enough with breeding crossed with Polymorph Any Object!


And sorry gamerkid - it didn't derail before you got a few solid answers, at least.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-14, 02:44 PM
Maybe if you experiment enough with breeding crossed with Polymorph Any Object!

yes......yes.......GHAHAHAHA!

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 02:45 PM
yes......yes.......GHAHAHAHA!

Another friend of mine has plans to create a half-beholder, BEAT THAT IN TERMS OF INSANITY!

Narazil
2010-01-14, 02:46 PM
Another friend of mine has plans to create a half-beholder, BEAT THAT IN TERMS OF INSANITY!
Half Dragon Living Unseen Servant? :smallcool:

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 02:48 PM
Half Dragon Living Unseen Servant? :smallcool:

Half-dragon zombie. THAT IS ALL!

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 02:48 PM
This thread went off-topic fast...

And I just got word from him, he wishes to delay the fight, as he wants to test the build against a SWASHBUCKLER another friend made first, now he will get overconfident after curbstomping him and cry foul when I curbstomp him.
Then you really should make sure he corrects his stats. A Daring Outlaw Swashbuckler/Rogue with a flanking partner (say, Wild Cohort) could brutalize the guy, and wrong stats will actually matter there.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-14, 02:48 PM
Half-dragon zombie. THAT IS ALL!

half dragon, half illithid half beholder zombie.:smalltongue: (yes that's one too many halfs. no I don't care)

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 02:51 PM
half dragon, half illithid half beholder zombie.:smalltongue: (yes that's one too many halfs. no I don't care)
Gheden Half-Troll Were-Dire-Shark Voidmind Half-Clay-Golem War Troll wins. Emerald Legion FTW!

But yeah. Make sure the guy fixes his stats.

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 02:53 PM
I will assist him in correcting his stats.

weenie
2010-01-14, 02:58 PM
What I would do in this scenario is I'd make a super powerful wizard(red wizard works wonderfully at this level, and so does Incantatrix, Initiate of the sevenfold veil, Swiftblade and even an Ultimate magus or Abjurant champion) and then challenge him to beat your in less than 10 attempts, between which your character doesn't get the chance to rest and for some reason decides not to teleport away. You'll probably make him cry, but he's challenging a high level caster with a weak melee character. He has to learn somehow..

Oh, and just to be cruel, tell him he did too much damage and his AC was too high AFTER you stomp him in the ground :smallamused:

Narazil
2010-01-14, 03:00 PM
What I would do in this scenario is I'd make a super powerful wizard(red wizard works wonderfully at this level, and so does Incantatrix, Initiate of the sevenfold veil, Swiftblade and even an Ultimate magus or Abjurant champion) and then challenge him to beat your in less than 10 attempts, between which your character doesn't get the chance to rest and for some reason decides not to teleport away. You'll probably make him cry, but he's challenging a high level caster with a weak melee character. He has to learn somehow..

Oh, and just to be cruel, tell him he did too much damage and his AC was too high AFTER you stomp him in the ground :smallamused:
This is pretty much word-by-word a guide to what not to do in a situation like this.

No one likes a smartass - especially not new players.

Melamoto
2010-01-14, 03:09 PM
What I would do is create a monk.

Utterly devastating someone with a Wizard is an Evil act (Probably detailed in the BoVD) because it takes away all of their innocence and optimism about the melee-caster debate. It's like causing a Kender to become Afflicted; it's heart wrenching, really.

weenie
2010-01-14, 03:15 PM
This is pretty much word-by-word a guide to what not to do in a situation like this.

No one likes a smartass - especially not new players.

That is probably true, but I get to participate in D&D duels so rarely, that I would go totally ballistic given the opportunity.

Oh, and if you go through with my suggestion, try to make yourself better than him at melee, and beat him at what his character is supposed to be good at! Polymorph does wonders for that. And if you have a ring of wizardy, introduce him to the world of hurt that is Arcane strike. Grapple him into submission in ent form, shred him to pieces in Hydra form, poop on him from above in pigeon form! MAKE HIM FEARAND RESPECT THE POWER OF THE ARCANE ARTS!!!! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Ok, I'll go sit in my corner and be good now :smallredface:

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 03:19 PM
That is probably true, but I get to participate in D&D duels so rarely, that I would go totally ballistic given the opportunity.

Oh, and if you go through with my suggestion, try to make yourself better than him at melee, and beat him at what his character is supposed to be good at! Polymorph does wonders for that. And if you have a ring of wizardy, introduce him to the world of hurt that is Arcane strike. Grapple him into submission in ent form, shred him to pieces in Hydra form, poop on him from above in pigeon form! MAKE HIM FEARAND RESPECT THE POWER OF THE ARCANE ARTS!!!! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Ok, I'll go sit in my corner and be good now :smallredface:
Then he'll think that melee is so good that the only way a Wizard can compete is by making itself go into melee as well.

Telonius
2010-01-14, 03:20 PM
If you really want to embarrass him, try a Halfling Monk with Confound the Big Folk.

Seatbelt
2010-01-14, 03:20 PM
oh really?

alien Nazi Communist half-fiend celestial draconic vampire goblin ninja cyborg doppelganger fire necromental piranha ogre beholders from hell

You can't apply the communist and nazi templates to the same creature.

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 03:21 PM
If you really want to embarrass him, try a Halfling Monk with Confound the Big Folk.
Then he'll think that Monks are overpowered, which would be like a crime.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-14, 03:21 PM
I got that part from another thread. blame them.

EDIT: beat him with a truenamer.:smallamused:

deuxhero
2010-01-14, 03:21 PM
Beat him at his own game. Make a Frostrager/runescarred zerker or something. A simple Horizon Tripper could also work.

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 03:23 PM
EDIT: beat him with a truenamer.:smallamused:

A what? :smallconfused:

deuxhero
2010-01-14, 03:26 PM
A class that gets worse as it levels up (Tome of Magic, the rest of the book has good stuff though). No, you didn't read that wrong.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-14, 03:26 PM
In tome of magic I bleve . It's called "the class without a tier" and is considered so bad it's ridiculous.

It's WORSE than Monk from what I've heard.

Gamerlord
2010-01-14, 03:27 PM
In tome of magic I bleve . It's called "the class without a tier" and is considered so bad it's ridiculous.

It's WORSE than Monk from what I've heard.

Worse then a samurai?

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 03:27 PM
A what? :smallconfused:
The worst class in the game, the tier-less class. Requires significant effort just to be able to reliably use its abilities, which aren't too hot to begin with. The class gets no love even in its own book, with no PrC advancing Truenaming and several major errors across the section. Tome of Magic.

Mongoose87
2010-01-14, 03:29 PM
A class that gets worse as it levels up (Tome of Magic, the rest of the book has good stuff though). No, you didn't read that wrong.

How does it get worse!?

deuxhero
2010-01-14, 03:31 PM
Worse then a samurai?

YES! At least they get more powerful as they level up A Samurai is better than a warrior anyways. At least commoners get chicken infested cheese, Truenamers do NOT.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-14, 03:31 PM
How does it get worse!?

because you can only put one more point into truenaming (it's a skill) per level but the DC increases by 2 every level.

Mongoose87
2010-01-14, 03:34 PM
because you can only put one more point into truenaming (it's a skill) per level but the DC increases by 2 every level.

Holy crap, that base DC of 15 (17, if you account for the unlikeliness of a CR 0) ain't so easy, either.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-14, 03:36 PM
So you have to pump a ridiculous amount of money into boosting the feature YOUR ENTIRE CLASS IS BASED ON.

jiriku
2010-01-14, 03:36 PM
Actually, I'll second a vote for the tibbit mage, and the melee wizard, both at once. Being slaughtered by an adorable little kitten that turns into a 12-headed werebear-pyrohydra is both rude, cruel, and hilarious all at once.

Xan_Kriegor
2010-01-14, 04:01 PM
Who the eff goes into a PvW (Player versus Wizard) fight at level 13 with 11 Potions of Cure Light Wounds?! If you're spending an action on it, I'd use at least Cure Serious Wounds.

As for a strategy against him, he has a Charisma score of 6. Get like 3 levels of Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm), cast Ego Whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/egoWhip.htm) on him a few times, and he's unconscious (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged) (therefore also helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless)) for the next day or so.

alisbin
2010-01-14, 04:04 PM
a few ideas, if you want to make it CLEAR your just toying with him, reverse gravity, basic SRD spell, reflex DC of MINIMUM 22 (with no optimization really), does lots of damage, humiliating AND gives you time to cast buffs :)
another option, Repulsion, no melee attacks for him, will save of 20+, again humiliating + buff time.
or you could go the "yeah i don't even need high level spells for you" route. Mirror image round 1, now he has a 1/8 chance of even targeting the right you. then a hideous laughter or 2 (heightened/extended if you feel mean). cast a flaming sphere on his position, now finish up with scorching rays. gives you somewhere in the neighborhood of 7d6 a round assuming he makes ALL saves, you can keep that up for all 15 rounds of hideous laughter so... 115d6 damage, i think that outta do right? well i suppose some of that would HAVE to be maximized and empowered but the effect is still the same, owned by level 1 and 2 spells :)

enjoy, and if you can get a photo of his reaction i'd love a copy.

ps
oh yeah, and for another fun and mean route, try a psion/telepath handy power called death urge, at 15th i think you could make his char be unable to do anything but try to kill himself for 3 rounds at a will dc of around 23ish. follow that up with energy rays or mind thrusts (15d10 typeless damage, dc also 23ish).

deuxhero
2010-01-14, 04:08 PM
Who the eff goes into a PvW (Player versus Wizard) fight at level 13 with 11 Potions of Cure Light Wounds?! If you're spending an action on it, I'd use at least Cure Serious Wounds.

As for a strategy against him, he has a Charisma score of 6. Get like 3 levels of Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm), cast Ego Whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/egoWhip.htm) on him a few times, and he's unconscious (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged) (therefore also helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless)) for the next day or so.


You can avoid multiclassing and go straight wizard. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm)

Melamoto
2010-01-14, 04:08 PM
Truenamer is considered pretty weak for the fact that the Skill Check DC is equal to 15+(2xTarget CR). But to be honest, that just means you have to find a few scaling bonuses; i.e. custom items. Putting it together, you get:

Skill Ranks = 3+level
Custom Item (Affordable even at level 1) = level
Skill Focus = 3
Total = 6+(2xLevel)

That alone gives you a 55% chance to succeed on a check against an opponent of equal CR, and that's without the Amulet of the Silver Tongue or Marshal/Illumian/Exemplar/Item Familiar etc thrown into the mix. Just add a few bonuses like that and you'll be able to go for quickening. If you build right, then the class becomes about Tier 5-6. Maybe 4 if you really know what you're doing (They have got some pretty nice abilities).


But it's only humiliating to be defeated by one if you know what it is. I still stand for beating him as a monk. Or a Fighter.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-14, 04:10 PM
Before you beat him with a Wizard:

Why not beat him at his own game?
Use a melee guy: a Multi-headed (Lernean) Lumi.
You become like Duncan McCloud the Highlander. You can't die unless they take your head and with it your power. There can only be one: let be a Lumi!

Like a Hydra if he sunders a head (you have 2, each has 1/2 max hp) 2 grow out of stump in 1d4 rdunless he applies fire/acid.

Eldan
2010-01-14, 04:14 PM
or you could go the "yeah i don't even need high level spells for you" route. Mirror image round 1, now he has a 1/8 chance of even targeting the right you. then a hideous laughter or 2 (heightened/extended if you feel mean). cast a flaming sphere on his position, now finish up with scorching rays. gives you somewhere in the neighborhood of 7d6 a round assuming he makes ALL saves, you can keep that up for all 15 rounds of hideous laughter so... 115d6 damage, i think that outta do right? well i suppose some of that would HAVE to be maximized and empowered but the effect is still the same, owned by level 1 and 2 spells :).

For that route, you start with Grease, then Mirror Image.

deuxhero
2010-01-14, 04:18 PM
Oh! Grease him, then make him a prison with stonewall.

Narazil
2010-01-14, 04:30 PM
Oh! Grease him, then make him a prison with stonewall.
Forcecage?

Critical
2010-01-14, 04:35 PM
Beat him with summons :smallbiggrin:

Telonius
2010-01-14, 04:40 PM
EDIT: nm, ninjad back on page 2

paddyfool
2010-01-14, 04:40 PM
One way to make your point (kind of jerky):
- buy no gear at all beyond a spell component pouch and some clothing for the sake of aesthetics
- don't bother filling out feats or skills,
- take no spells beyond, say, 3rd level, and stick entirely to the SRD. You'll still hand his posterior to him. (2nd level should do, but he has to learn the importance of flying, so, yeah, 3rd).

And then there are about a hundred others. All seem at least slightly jerky because the power imbalance is just too much, but it's up to you what you do.

deuxhero
2010-01-14, 04:40 PM
Forcecage?

Possible between the two, but Wall of Stone is instant, forcecage isn't.

Mongoose87
2010-01-14, 05:03 PM
Cast Grease on his boots.

deuxhero
2010-01-14, 07:21 PM
But then you just have a pissed off barefoot Barbarian.

AdalKar
2010-01-14, 07:51 PM
Just for the fun of it: while flying with your mirror images while he is on the ground shouting at you because of your grease spell cast a maximised empowered Ray of Enfeeblement for 13+1d3 Str penalty :smalltongue:
sure you have to roll a 4 on the caster level check vs SR but that shouldn't be a problem :smallbiggrin:
I know you don't have to because he can't hit you at all, but I just love that spell :smallwink:

if you find a typo you can keep it ^^
sorry if my english isn't the best :smallsmile:

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 08:54 PM
In fact, systematically reduce all his stats to zero, then level drain him, wait until he rises as a Wight and kill the Wight.

ericgrau
2010-01-14, 09:00 PM
This guy has a pathetic +4.

His saves:
Fort +12
Ref +5
Will +4

When he's raging his reflex save is worse. Try resilient sphere if anything. And wait wait wait. You already know his build? Play anything, heck even another barbarian tailored to his weaknesses. What's supposed to be hard about this challenge?

Zaq
2010-01-14, 09:05 PM
Truenamer is considered pretty weak for the fact that the Skill Check DC is equal to 15+(2xTarget CR). But to be honest, that just means you have to find a few scaling bonuses; i.e. custom items. Putting it together, you get:

Skill Ranks = 3+level
Custom Item (Affordable even at level 1) = level
Skill Focus = 3
Total = 6+(2xLevel)

That alone gives you a 55% chance to succeed on a check against an opponent of equal CR, and that's without the Amulet of the Silver Tongue or Marshal/Illumian/Exemplar/Item Familiar etc thrown into the mix. Just add a few bonuses like that and you'll be able to go for quickening. If you build right, then the class becomes about Tier 5-6. Maybe 4 if you really know what you're doing (They have got some pretty nice abilities).


But it's only humiliating to be defeated by one if you know what it is. I still stand for beating him as a monk. Or a Fighter.

Bolded for emphasis. They do not have that many good abilities. Trust me. They have a couple tricks, but so does a barbarian.

Now, yes, if you get your Truespeak check up, you could kill this thing without even trying, but damn near anything could kill this thing without even trying.

Take it from someone who's been there. Friends don't let friends Truename.

deuxhero
2010-01-14, 09:07 PM
I thought it was "friends don't let friends specialize in evocation"

Zaq
2010-01-14, 09:11 PM
I thought it was "friends don't let friends specialize in evocation"

...You're seriously comparing a Wizard, even an Evoker, to a Truenamer.

...Seriously.

...Wizard. Truenamer.

mabriss lethe
2010-01-14, 10:03 PM
wanna make it a fair fight? well, too bad, you probably can't.

Wanna be mean? Here are some suggestions that spring to mind.

He's got a +12 fort save mod. focus on that. Take his greatest defense and break it.

Use some of the earlier listed tactics to get airborne or otherwise make yourself inaccessible.

-Enervation. (no save for a -1d4 neg level penalty on all saves) save is now in the +8-11 range.Feel free to use enervation again if you have the extra slots available.
-Spectral hand + Bestow Curse(Touch attack +will save for -4 on attacks/saves/checks)(save is now at the +4-8 range
-Repeat Spectral Hand +bestow curse (-6 penalty to Con this time around) Save is now at the +1-5 range.
-Baleful polymorph the poor sap into something adorable and harmless, hit it with a touch of idiocy spell the next day and keep it as a trophy/pet when it fails the will save 24 hours later.

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 10:09 PM
A 15th level Wizard's spells have a DC of 17 + 1 or 2 (G/SF) + INT, which should be around 32 by that point (18+2 racial+3 levels+6 headband+3 tome) for a total DC of 28ish. Even with his strong save, he needs to roll a 16 or higher to pass the check, which means that you still hit 80% of the time, as opposed to 100% of the time otherwise (or I guess 80% because of SR but SR:No spells are plentiful).

oxinabox
2010-01-14, 10:53 PM
You're Screwwed!

it's a million to 1 chance that he'll beat you.
... You're higher lvl, playiung a more powerful class,
... He'ss lower lvl, playing a weaker class, (in what can be a nonoptimum way... unarmed damage sucks, grapples kinda deadly though (... unless you have... stilled freedom of movement prepared(is there any lvl 15 wizard who doesn't?))
You know everything about his character, he doesn't know yours and you're still building.

but million to 1 chances always occur.

THe weak old man will always beat the young strong warrior. (metaphorically).



Dare
Geas has a 100 round casting time (IIRC), I dare you to put a geas on him,

Krazddndfreek
2010-01-14, 11:36 PM
Honestly, you could bring a fifth level Wizard to the table and say, "I win." and have it be over with.

OverdrivePrime
2010-01-14, 11:40 PM
Okay, do you hate this guy, or want to make him never play D&D again? You're using a cruise missile to kill a beetle.
This guy is a total newbie, it's just mean to take an even minorly optimized wizard against him.

Try to make it at least slightly interesting - use a SRD-only bard. You'll still mop the floor with him, but at least he'll feel like he may have had even the slightest chance at winning.

Send him off chasing illusions while you summon and buff, and then, just when he thinks he might be able to get to you, bring out your real firepower and melt his brain.

This way you're teaching the valuable "bards kick ass" lesson while you teach him about the desperate plight of warriors against spellcasters.

Studoku
2010-01-15, 02:50 AM
1. Before the battle, cast shrink object and invisibility on an anvil.
2. Cast fly
3. Fly above him
4. Drop the anvil
5. As it is falling, dismiss shrink object and invisibility. NINJA ANVIL SNEAK ATTACK!

Not the most optimised way, but funny.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-15, 03:14 AM
Try to make it at least slightly interesting - use a SRD-only bard. You'll still mop the floor with him, but at least he'll feel like he may have had even the slightest chance at winning.

Praytell, how so?

Alex112524
2010-01-15, 03:22 AM
Praytell, how so?

Probably the same way that he thinks his character is good :smallbiggrin:

deuxhero
2010-01-15, 10:57 AM
Bards get a few SoDs, most of them are just [mind effecting].

OverdrivePrime
2010-01-15, 11:33 AM
Praytell, how so?

Eh, just keeping him happy fighting a few summoned allies can make it more fun for the poor barbarian. He'll probably manage to kill one or two and have some feeling of accomplishment, no matter how misplaced. But yeah, once playtime is over, it gets ugly for the brawler real quick.

Telonius
2010-01-15, 11:35 AM
Bards get a few SoDs, most of them are just [mind effecting].

A lot of the Bards' spells are SoS, for a Barbarian, especially one that doesn't have Tireless Rage. Basically any of his mind-affecting spells can cause the Barbarian to miss turns or actions. Even something as simple as Invisibility can let the Bard wait out the rage. After that, just UMD a Ray of Exhaustion, for an auto-exhaustion. Unless the Barbarian has spell resistance somehow, he's out of luck. -6 to Str and Dex, means effectively -3 to attack and AC.

Moving at half speed would normally mean the Bard can just move 30 and snipe with a ranged weapon, or cast a spell, or do whatever else he's going to do, with no danger from the Barbarian. However, since this is an Ogre with class levels we're talking about, there's a possibility that he'll be moving more quickly (mithral armor instead of hide would mean he can move 25 if exhausted), and he does have reach, so the Bard would still have to worry about that. Still, a Haste spell takes care of that.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-15, 11:39 AM
Playing nice is for people who aren't America. I suggest a healthy dose of Mind Crush.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-15, 12:09 PM
oh really?

alien Nazi Communist half-fiend celestial draconic vampire goblin ninja cyborg doppelganger fire necromental piranha ogre beholders from hell

Hey I saw that movie! It had that dude from Farscape in it, Right?

Also I had one of my group make the claim that a barby can smash a wizzy as well. I think I'll challenge him to both a duel and an endurance test. I think the most optimization I'll do is Imp. Init and a hummingbird. maybe a reserve feat for the endurance part. And Skill Focus: Stone cutting/basket weaving as well.

Hmm... what race would suck worse as a wizard, goblin or half orc?

Mystic Muse
2010-01-15, 12:13 PM
Hey I saw that movie! It had that dude from Farscape in it, Right?

no, it had that dude from Farside in it.

tyckspoon
2010-01-15, 12:22 PM
Hmm... what race would suck worse as a wizard, goblin or half orc?

Half-orc, no question. Goblins have the benefits of being Small, a Dex bonus, and penalties to irrelevant stats for a Wizard. Half-Orcs have an Int penalty.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-15, 12:25 PM
Half-orc, no question. Goblins have the benefits of being Small, a Dex bonus, and penalties to irrelevant stats for a Wizard. Half-Orcs have an Int penalty.

They don't get a Con bonus do they? Tis been so long since I looked at them...

If not then good. I might throw one together this afternoon.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-15, 12:28 PM
Strength bonus yes. Con bonus no.

Emmerask
2010-01-15, 12:32 PM
Hmm I donīt see any magic weapons(amulet of xyz) on his character that is fun indeed.

So lets have some good fun with him, flying and killing him with an orb or somesuch is pretty boring ^^

Ok at first cast starmantle(BoED 108) now you are completly immune to all his damage for 15minutes :smallbiggrin:
heart of water would be good too if he wants to hug you :smallwink:

now sit down and eat and drink something (would be nice if you could get heroic feast spell somehow)

now that you are properly nourished there is still that raging barbarian to deal with teleport away declare him the winner of this awesome duel and call it a day would be my idea :smallwink:

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-15, 12:34 PM
Bards get Irrisistable Dance.

"Dance, monkey, dance!"

Bagelz
2010-01-15, 04:41 PM
first off, you horribly gimp your damage as a barbarian if you don't use a twohander, and you cannot twohander unarmed strike.

i highly approve of beating him with another melee (power charger barbarian or fighter) but if his point is to have a melee that can beat a caster, then by all means, use a lvl13 no level adjuster wizard and a few will/refl spells and crush him. Or use nothing but magic missles.

actually go best 2 out of 3, do one round nothing but mm, one round polymorph/tenser's transformation gish, one round batman (this should only last 3 or 4 rounds of combat) if it gets that far, just to show him how gimped he is.

Haruspex_Pariah
2010-01-16, 03:40 AM
A friend of mine has challenged me to a 3.5 D&D duel, he claims that an unarmed barbarian would be extremely powerful, he has already made his character, a 13th level ogre barbarian, I am planning on playing on the one weakness of the build: a laughable will save. I will be a enchantment-specialized wizard, how difficult should I expect the duel to be? I will be a 15th level wizard.

From the character sheet you linked to I see three possibilities:

1) The sheet isn't finished yet (though you said it was already made),
2) Your friend has no idea what he's doing, or
3) Your friend is intentionally goofing

What you can gain from defeating a build of this dubious calibre, I have no idea. To answer your question: not very difficult. In fact, the opposite of difficult.

I noticed that he has Brutal Throw in an unarmed combat build. Is he planning on throwing his own head at you?

Gamerlord
2010-01-16, 08:00 AM
From the character sheet you linked to I see three possibilities:

1) The sheet isn't finished yet (though you said it was already made),
2) Your friend has no idea what he's doing, or
3) Your friend is intentionally goofing

What you can gain from defeating a build of this dubious calibre, I have no idea. To answer your question: not very difficult. In fact, the opposite of difficult.

I noticed that he has Brutal Throw in an unarmed combat build. Is he planning on throwing his own head at you?

The arena is a forest with a large temple in the center, I think he plans to throw trees and rocks at me.