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DementedFellow
2010-01-14, 04:19 PM
Why is it that casters who prepare their spells ahead of time get higher spells earlier? It makes no sense. Can someone explain to me how a wizard who can channel arcane forces by reading a book gets more spells and higher spells earlier than someone who doesn't need a book and can reshape reality by the force of his personality?

Does it say that a sorcerer or a bard cannot read? No. So why are they denied the ability to gain new spells aside from DM fiat? So does this mean that sorcs and bards cannot write? No. So why can't they learn a new spell from a scroll?

Obviously spontaneous casting is a better system. Especially compared to having to pick your spells at the beginning of each day and being boned if you choose poorly. Bookkeeping is just a chore and doesn't particularly lend itself to fun.

It just seems that the system is out to unfairly punish players who don't like to spend precious time to choose spells daily.

Let's go even further. Wizards basically need one stat. The rest can be 10 and they're just fine. INT drives their spell power and their skills. CON is the only thing a wizard might need. The rest could even be in the negatives.

But Sorcerers and Bards need CHA and CON and then INT for skills. Why make spontaneous casters MAD? It's like the game designers saw the potential for a more fun (if only for the pew pew pew factor) class than the wizard and said, "We can't have that. We need to nerf the hell out of the class."

I guess I'm just venting. I don't see reading a book as giving someone power when they can cast cantrips and spells without having to touch one. Am I alone in this feeling?

deuxhero
2010-01-14, 04:24 PM
HOLD IT!

Wizards can benifit from dex (initiative is quite important from batman)

HCL
2010-01-14, 04:27 PM
Yes prepared casters are better off generally since they don't have problems using metamagic and they get higher level spells earlier

But on the other hand, a Great Wyrm Dragonwrought Child of Ebberron Kobold Warmage/Rainbow Servant can spontaneously cast anything off the warmage, druid, or cleric spell list :D

ghashxx
2010-01-14, 04:27 PM
Yay, another lover of spontaneous casting. I ran a sorcerer, and I've run a druid. While I will be the first to admit that a wizard is better than sorcerer because there are so many spells you will only need to cast once a day (rope trick, that one that lets you not be flatfooted, etc) that a sorcerer simply can't cover all those bases.

This makes me sad, but I still enjoyed the sorcerer a lot. I guess this is something they addressed in 4th, instead of having two different methods of spell casting you just get rid of sorcerers...grrrrr.

Homebrewing is always an option. Bonus feats like wizards, access to spells like wizards, and something I've been fiddling with is allowing a few slots to be used each day for one random spell you "know". In effect this would be like having a small pool of your spell casting be like a wizard. So maybe by 5th level you have one wizard 1st and 2nd level spells to fiddle with. So let's say you chose rope trick as your 2nd level, you can now cast that one spell once each day. Increased levels equals increased wizard like spell pools of the lower level spells, and access to the upper level spells.

It's a system I haven't really worked out yet, but it'd be to have. Still not the optimization potential of a wizard, but allowing a few of those "I only need this, at the most, once each day" spells to be used by sorcerers etc.

Narazil
2010-01-14, 04:28 PM
Being able to cast all your spells without choosing is obviously superior to choosing what spells you can cast at the start of the day - which is why Wizards get higher level spells earlier, I think.

Sorcerers and Bards use magic, they don't understand it. The power comes to them naturally.
A Wizard, on the other hand, studies and understands what he's doing - and is therefore able to understand the "language" of magic - a language mostly universal, which is why other Wizards are able to learn spells from your spellbook.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-14, 04:29 PM
Sorceror's get less spells known but they get more spells per day.

Somebody who does things by "instinct" is not generally going to be as good as the person who studies and such.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-14, 04:31 PM
Being able to cast all your spells without choosing is obviously superior to choosing what spells you can cast at the start of the day - which is why Wizards get higher level spells earlier, I think. Except all that matters is your high-level spells. On even levels, a Sorc only has one spell of their highest level. So the 'spontaneous' caster is choosing what they'll cast at level-up, while the prepared caster gets to repick daily. Yeah, WotC didn't think this through.

Ferrin
2010-01-14, 04:32 PM
While I agree that Wizards and other prepared spellcasters have to much to choose from at any time, there are still a lot of other people who like that system for some obscure reason. I prefer spontaneous casters as well, and psionics even more because the system just works better for me.

If you don't like it you can change it yourself if you're DMing, or can talk to your DM about it. No one forces you to play one, and if the reason is power then something is going horribly wrong. :smallbiggrin:

It's a choice of playstyle, love it or hate it. I myself would choose spontaneous casting over prepared casting any day.

Narazil
2010-01-14, 04:36 PM
Except all that matters is your high-level spells. On even levels, a Sorc only has one spell of their highest level. So the 'spontaneous' caster is choosing what they'll cast at level-up, while the prepared caster gets to repick daily. Yeah, WotC didn't think this through.
You're right - mechanically Wizards are stronger than Sorcerers. While being able to use all your spells known all the time is a great feature, having more spells known is better generally.
There are situations where a Wizard will be screwed, though. Coming up against Undeads with mostly mind-influencing spells is a pretty decent way of dying, a problem a Sorcerer will never encounter.
Getting to repick your spells as a Wizard requires you to survive the night, though. In combat, being able to cast Dismissal, but not having it prepared, is obviously as good as not being able to cast Dismissal at all.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-14, 04:41 PM
Apparently, you've never played a Kobold before. Starting at 6th level (possibly sooner), Kobold Sorcerers get their spells a level earlier than Wizards do. If built properly, you can get spells 4 levels earlier than normal.

Narazil
2010-01-14, 04:44 PM
Apparently, you've never played an optimized Kobold before. Starting at 6th level (possibly sooner), Kobold Sorcerers get their spells a level earlier than Wizards do. If built properly, you can get spells 4 levels earlier than normal.
Fixed.

And really, that shouldn't be needed. Min/Maxing to bypass a flawed design shouldn't be required.

Signmaker
2010-01-14, 04:45 PM
Apparently, you've never played a Kobold before. Starting at 6th level (possibly sooner), Kobold Sorcerers get their spells a level earlier than Wizards do. If built cheesily, you can get spells 4 levels earlier than normal.

If you don't mind the fix. =P

I honestly don't see the complaints. In core? Spontaneous casters have it hard. I can't deny that, and very few people will.

Open up a few key splatbooks, and the picture at high levels starts to change. Sorcerers start to get much better action economy via spells such as Arcane Fusion and Arcane Spellsurge. So while the wizard is traditionally on top, it shouldn't be assumed that the spontaneous caster is far behind. Far from it, often.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-14, 04:45 PM
You're right - mechanically Wizards are stronger than Sorcerers. While being able to use all your spells known all the time is a great feature, having more spells known is better generally.
There are situations where a Wizard will be screwed, though. Coming up against Undeads with mostly mind-influencing spells is a pretty decent way of dying, a problem a Sorcerer will never encounter.
Getting to repick your spells as a Wizard requires you to survive the night, though. In combat, being able to cast Dismissal, but not having it prepared, is obviously as good as not being able to cast Dismissal at all.LBut, and this is what you're overlooking, is that low-level spells don't matter. High level ones do. Say you're a level 10 Sorcerer. You have 3 5th level slots and 5 4th level slots(+Cha mod, so add 1 to each). You have 1 5th level spell known and 2 4th level spells known. How is that versatility? Meanwhile the Wizard has 4 5th and 5 4th slots, each of which has a different spell in it.

Narazil
2010-01-14, 04:46 PM
LBut, and this is what you're overlooking, is that low-level spells don't matter. High level ones do. Say you're a level 10 Sorcerer. You have 3 5th level slots and 5 4th level slots(+Cha mod, so add 1 to each). You have 1 5th level spell known and 2 4th level spells known. How is that versatility? Meanwhile the Wizard has 4 5th and 5 4th slots, each of which has a different spell in it.
Wait, what? Lower level spells don't matter? Only your current highest level spell does?


Uhm.. I guess we'll have to disagree on that.

Signmaker
2010-01-14, 04:48 PM
LBut, and this is what you're overlooking, is that low-level spells don't matter. High level ones do. Say you're a level 10 Sorcerer. You have 3 5th level slots and 5 4th level slots(+Cha mod, so add 1 to each). You have 1 5th level spell known and 2 4th level spells known. How is that versatility? Meanwhile the Wizard has 4 5th and 5 4th slots, each of which has a different spell in it.

It isn't versatility. But if the Sorcerer is Arcane Fusioning Orb of X with True Strike repeatedly, that's a noticable impact, versatility damn it. One shouldn't belittle the value of low-levelled spells, as they only 'don't matter' when one doesn't have the action economy to utilize them.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-14, 04:52 PM
Wait, what? Lower level spells don't matter? Only your current highest level spell does?


Uhm.. I guess we'll have to disagree on that.If the spell is capped, you're probably hitting that cap after 4 levels. If it offers a save, it doesn't do so at the highest possible. immunities become common, as do enemies that can simply ignore it. Yes, you can use lower-level spells, but you have to select carefully, and generally not in combat. Actions are too valuable to waste on something not level-appropriate.

taltamir
2010-01-14, 04:52 PM
WOTC of the coast assumed that everyone will be playing an extremely sub par AoO evocation blaster. aka, someone who spams fireball and lightening bolt and the like.
The sorcerer gets more of those per day, at the cost of spells know, slower progression, etc.
in reality though, sorcerers get the shaft. its worst for favored souls, whose cha determines their bonus spells, but wisdom determines save DC against their spells.

onthetown
2010-01-14, 04:55 PM
It's a poor attempt to try to balance the classes out, methinks. Nobody completely gets their own way.

In pros vs cons... Sorcs/bards can cast anything they know within the limits of their spells per day, where wizards are forced to do bookkeeping and pray they don't screw up their spell choices. So, wizards are able to learn anything, where sorcs/bards are confined in their choice of spells. Sorcs can cast more times per day but learn less, wizards can cast less times per day but learn more.

Unfortunately, by throwing in the wizards getting spell levels before sorcs, they've managed to unbalance it.

Pink
2010-01-14, 05:06 PM
Wow...did I actually see someone call a sorceror MAD? Really? I mean bard sure, but sorc?

First note, as far as being unable to learn spells 'cept through dm fiat, not true. There are feats. Granted the one from. Comp. Arcane sucks, but its there.

Also, clearly you aim this only at the core spontaneous casters. Warmages and beguilers and dread necros get plenty more spells known than sorc.

But really, the tone in this thread that sorcs get screwed, come on, it's like you're making it try and sound like a sorc is like a fighter.

Wizard is powerful. It is pretty much the best you can get with arcane, maybe the best class in the game period. If you're trying to compare anything besides the best class, you're gonna get flaws. Sorc is still a good class on its own.

Optimystik
2010-01-14, 05:14 PM
There was no reason for them to arbitrarily force sorcerers (and favored souls) to gain spells one level slower than their prepared counterparts. The limited spells known is enough of a drawback that it cancels out the ability not to prepare.

Psions (and Beguilers, Dread Necros, etc.) prove that spontaneity alone does not a gamebreaker make.

mostlyharmful
2010-01-14, 05:19 PM
yeah, I've been playing around with homebrew ways of gaining spells known and amalgamate the Sorc/Wizard classes. delay spell progression and in return allow a sexy cool way of becoming more versitile.

Would depend on the way you get it, maybe milking the xp gravy train for an xp hit every time you want to get a new spell, maybe cutting wbl to 'eat' scrolls to leave mages dependant on gear found, maybe just going the hell with it and letting them train in x months to give them something else to occupy their downtime rather than shanking the economy... work in progress...

DementedFellow
2010-01-14, 05:20 PM
There was no reason for them to arbitrarily force sorcerers (and favored souls) to gain spells one level slower than their prepared counterparts. The limited spells known is enough of a drawback that it cancels out the ability not to prepare.

Psions (and Beguilers, Dread Necros, etc.) prove that spontaneity alone does not a gamebreaker make.

This. This. This. A thousand times this. This should have been my OP.

HailDiscordia
2010-01-14, 05:29 PM
Sorcerers should at least get 4+ skill points a level. And Diplomacy is not even on their skill list! That's real crummy. If you want to spend your skill points efficiently you are sort of forced to put them into Bluff since it is their only CHA skill. The fact that Charisma is not really good for much outside (for a sorc) of their casting stat is a definite drawback. All of this aside, I still think they are more fun than wizards. And bards are more fun than either of them.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-14, 05:33 PM
WOTC of the coast.

:smallconfused: who's wizards of the coast of the coast?:smalltongue:

nightwyrm
2010-01-14, 05:33 PM
They overvalued spontaneous casting when WotC first made 3e, and everything else they made afterwards just followed the model. Or rather, every other spontaneous caster that came afterwards used the sorc as the benchmark rather than the wizard.

KurtKatze
2010-01-14, 05:37 PM
In our campaign (no powergaming :( ) I am playing a sorc. Me and our bard "share" the job of a wizard. She takes the fieldcontrol, I take the buffs and debuffs (and some blasting ;) ) so we 2 make 1 wizard... that really doesnt seem fair.

Sorc's can add meta magick on the fly, too. Which i think is very nice indeed. Of course you have to choose the Rapid Meta Magick feat on lvl 9 to overcome the increased casting time.

If you can get your dm to grant you earlier access to spells as well as some bonus feats the sorc makes a very good caster. Still inferior to the wizard but absolutely worthwhile playing.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-14, 05:59 PM
:smallconfused: who's wizards of the coast of the coast?:smalltongue:
Members of the Redundant Union of Redundant Redundancy, Numbered number #333.3333*3:smallamused:

Tokiko Mima
2010-01-14, 06:04 PM
If I'm the DM, I would take a cue from the Chameleon PrC's bonus feat Extra Spell trick.

At level 1, Sorcerers gain the ability, at the beginning of the day when they refresh their spells, to add a single spell to their spells known of up to level 3 or the highest level they can cast, whichever is lower of the two. They must possess a scroll or a spellbook with that spell in it, and the spell must be on the sorcerer's spell list. The scroll is not consumed if used this way and can still be consumed in the normal way.

When the Sorcerer refreshes his spells, this additional spell known is lost, but can be added again as long as the spellbook or scroll is still available.

At level 5, they gain another spell known in the same manner, that can be used up to level 5.

At level 10, they gain an additional spell known that can go up to level 7.

And at level 15, the additional spell known gained can be of any level the sorcerer can cast.

At level 20, as a capstone, the Sorcerer receives the ability to use Arcane Preparation (trade a spontaneous spell slot for a prepared spell) with any spell he has in spellbook or scroll form. He has to prepare them at the beginning of the day though, just like a wizard. He still has to have the Arcane Preparation feat if he wants to prepare spells from his normal sorcerer slots, however. This does not make the sorcerer a prepared spellcaster.

What I hope is that it might also make taking pure sorcerer levels worthwhile. :smallcool:

RebelRogue
2010-01-14, 06:21 PM
I guess this is something they addressed in 4th, instead of having two different methods of spell casting you just get rid of sorcerers...grrrrr.
Errm... where have you been since March last year?

As for the difference in spell level progression, it's a case of WotC overestimating the power of spontaneous casting. When it comes to gauging relative power level between classes in 3.5 this is surely one of their smaller failures.

taltamir
2010-01-14, 06:31 PM
:smallconfused: who's wizards of the coast of the coast?:smalltongue:

i can't believe i did that :)

ericgrau
2010-01-14, 06:35 PM
Assuming equal spell levels, comparing sorcerer with general purpose spell list vs wizard with general purpose spell list, the sorcerer wins hands down. At least as many options to choose from, and he can cast spell A 3 times, then spell B twice, then ignore spells C and D if desired. Metamagic adds many more possibilities that can be added on the fly. The on the fly part is why say, heighten spell and still spell are great for a sorcerer but often useless for a wizard. So then he's not just better than the wizard, he's head and shoulders above him... except in when the PCs are given 24 hours notice. That's an event that happens far more often in theoretical discussion than actual play. Boosting spell level is not the solution.

I like the Player's Handbook solution better. Make the party's first arcane caster the wizard, then make the 2nd a sorcerer with the general purpose spell list. So the sorcerer becomes a 5th wheel class. The sorcerer is always loaded with powerful spells, yet there's never a situation where you wish you could access a certain spell because the wizard can just get that one spell and let the sorcerer continue merrily casting the same spells with impunity. That's only for high level spells though. For low level spells either class should use scrolls.

Optimystik
2010-01-14, 06:44 PM
This makes me sad, but I still enjoyed the sorcerer a lot. I guess this is something they addressed in 4th, instead of having two different methods of spell casting you just get rid of sorcerers...grrrrr.

Wait, what?

Sorcerers are in 4th, and they are awesome.

Runestar
2010-01-14, 06:46 PM
The arcane spellcasting support in subsequent splatbooks also tend to benefit wizards more than sorcerors, IMO.

For instance, wizards tend to have an easier time qualifying for prcs due to the bonus feat they get at 5th lv, and having access to every knowledge skill as a class skill (while sorcs know only arcana). They are also less hindered by the requirement of being able to cast a certain spell (since they only need to have it in their spellbook, while a sorc must waste a slot learning it), and can usually enter a prc 1 lv earlier, though a case could be made for a wizard to stay until 6th lv for the +1 to all saves and +1bab.

Focused specialists end up giving wizards as many slots as a sorc, and to add insult to injury, wizards now actually get more every odd lv (eg: a 9th lv FS gets 4 5th lv slots with a high int, a sorc only gets those 4 5th lv slots at lv10.)

Sorcs also have to invest in a high cha, typically at the expense of int, which means inferior spellcraft and knowledge checks.

Then there are feats which give the wizard the ability to spontaneously cast spells, while sorcs have to contend with .... draconic-themed feats? Wizards can also take reserve feats up to 3 lvs earlier (getting 2nd lv spells at 3rd lv, but sorcs have to wait to 6th). Likewise, sorcs benefit less from feats like insightful reflexes, which let you apply your int mod to reflex saves instead of dex.

Spontaneous spellcasting is undeniably useful, but sorcs end up paying through the nose for this benefit, IMO.

Temotei
2010-01-14, 06:46 PM
Spontaneous casters can leave camp earlier. :smallconfused:

That means they don't get caught studying. It's just embarrassing to see someone studying and have to slit their throat while they're doing that. Do orcs even count that as a kill when they're bragging about owning that party of adventurers?

That is clearly an advantage. :smallsmile:

Tyndmyr
2010-01-14, 07:11 PM
Getting caught studying isn't really likely unless the wizard is terminally stupid.

I think the bonus feats are a significant factor in favor of the wizard too. Now granted, you usually PrC out after five levels, but still...thats a free MM or crafting feat of choice, plus a freebie Scribe Scroll. Pretty decent.

That, the slower spell progression, and the limited spells known are pretty harsh when combined. Not a bad class, mind you, just limited compared to wizard. I think at least one of those three downsides should be eliminated, and that'd likely help substantially. Possibly one of those weaknesses removed, and another somewhat mitigated.

Pink
2010-01-14, 07:15 PM
Getting caught studying isn't really likely unless the wizard is terminally stupid.

I think the bonus feats are a significant factor in favor of the wizard too. Now granted, you usually PrC out after five levels, but still...thats a free MM or crafting feat of choice, plus a freebie Scribe Scroll. Pretty decent.

That, the slower spell progression, and the limited spells known are pretty harsh when combined. Not a bad class, mind you, just limited compared to wizard. I think at least one of those three downsides should be eliminated, and that'd likely help substantially. Possibly one of those weaknesses removed, and another somewhat mitigated.

Why is the thought process so often to balance UP to the wizard, instead of bringing the wizard down a few pegs?

Tyndmyr
2010-01-14, 07:19 PM
Because balancing upward is easier and generally more fun.

It's much easier to tell the monk he gets a bunch of skills and goodies(pick your favorite fix), than to nerf others down to his level.

avr
2010-01-14, 07:23 PM
Wizards can leave spell slots open & prepare with only 15 minutes notice, not 24 hours if they like - this is often enough to totally negate the spontaneous caster's advantage.


When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.
Pink, you'd be amazed how many people will throw a hissy fit at the idea of nerfing the wizard. If you want to do this it may be safer to suggest replacing the wizard with a bunch of other classes (beguilers etc).

elonin
2010-01-14, 07:24 PM
One small thing to point out is that sorcerers don't have spell books to loose. It's a small consolation but a wizard whose had his book stolen may be stuck with yesterdays spells and as many read magic spells as he has slots for.

Narazil
2010-01-14, 07:25 PM
One small thing to point out is that sorcerers don't have spell books to loose. It's a small consolation but a wizard whose had his book stolen may be stuck with yesterdays spells and as many read magic spells as he has slots for.
But Wizards, like people with Lays Chips, can't have just one Spellbook. You'll have your real spellbook, your backup, your fake, your warded, your stolen ones, ect.

onthetown
2010-01-14, 07:26 PM
One small thing to point out is that sorcerers don't have spell books to loose. It's a small consolation but a wizard whose had his book stolen may be stuck with yesterdays spells and as many read magic spells as he has slots for.

And, I might be thinking of a totally different thing, but do sorcerers have to use spell components? It's always been a house rule that they don't in the campaigns I've played, but I'm not sure if it's actually a rule.

Runestar
2010-01-14, 07:29 PM
And, I might be thinking of a totally different thing, but do sorcerers have to use spell components?

Yes.


One small thing to point out is that sorcerers don't have spell books to loose.

So wizards waste a feat on eidetic spellbook (dragon 357, lets them record spells in their mind), gives up scribe scroll and familiar. :smallbiggrin:

Pink
2010-01-14, 07:30 PM
I won't necessarily argue that people generally enjoy getting gifts, but you didn't answer what I consider the important part of that. Why the wizard? Why are we trying to balance to the top tier? I mean, we're talking about a class that is already a full-caster, and the suggestions seem to be make them stronger? This doesn't seem a little silly considering you got Fighters and monks out there in the same party?

To prevent this from being twisted, I'm not saying nerf down to Fighter and monk levels, but rather being able to accept that, Sorceror is good already, however wizard is the best and it's also better than sorcerer, maybe instead of Changing sorcerer though, which is already nicely powered and fun, we change wizard so that it's not significantly more powerful.

What would happen if the wizard didn't get access to higher level spells until the same level the Sorc did?

Radiun
2010-01-14, 07:31 PM
And, I might be thinking of a totally different thing, but do sorcerers have to use spell components? It's always been a house rule that they don't in the campaigns I've played, but I'm not sure if it's actually a rule.

They do, because Sorcerors, who use magic due to hefty magical endowment instead of performing arcane rituals with bizarre components, share the odd habit of wizards: collecting bat poop and trying to turn it into magical flames

Kylarra
2010-01-14, 07:34 PM
So wizards waste a feat on eidetic spellbook (dragon 357, lets them record spells in their mind), gives up scribe scroll and familiar. :smallbiggrin:That's an ACF, not a feat.

Chaelos
2010-01-14, 07:57 PM
I love Sorcerers myself. There's so much flavor there that you don't get with other classes, and, for all its drawbacks, spontaneous casting has been generally more useful in the campaigns I've been in than prepared casting, even when an experienced player is playing the prepared caster.

That said, there are still some significant drawbacks, though, which will probably always persist in the absence of homebrew rules.
-Reliance on CHA, which WotC perpetually seems to consider a dump stat, while Wizards get tasty, tasty INT as their primary stat. This hurts especially for Sorcerers because CHA only synergizes with ONE of their class skills...
-No bonus feats (though they really should get at least Eschew Materials for free, in my opinion)
-Increased casting time for metamagic (can be negated with a feat that escapes me at the moment, but it still burns that they have to waste a precious feat on this)
-Longer wait for higher level spells, relative to wizards
-Very limited spells known (although, as noted above, Mage of the Arcane Order can negate this for the most part)
-Most arcane prestige classes, in my opinion, seem to more easily jive with the Wizard

Those are some heavy handicaps, especially at low levels. But, despite all that, spontaneous spellcasting is a potent-enough mechanism that, from my experience, sorcerers are a nasty threat to anyone. With certain prestige classes, you can even make a "Batman"-esque sorcerer yourself that will do most of what the Batman wizard can.

Ponce
2010-01-14, 08:01 PM
Play the Generic Class Spellcaster in stead of Sorcerer. Your life will change forever.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-14, 08:11 PM
I'm not sure how to power down a wizard, but eliminating the disparate rate at which the sorcerer and wizard learn spells might be a good start.

Doc Roc
2010-01-14, 08:25 PM
Mm..... Arcane fusion, Arcane Spellsurge...

Mmm. Dragonsblood pool.

Much to learn have you. Step into my dojo someday.

DragoonWraith
2010-01-14, 08:25 PM
It is a good start. Forcing Wizards to specialize, with no bonus spell slots, is also a step in the right direction. Rebalancing the schools to make this a harder decision is another very good idea.

Chaelos
2010-01-14, 08:42 PM
Even more than rebalancing the schools, cutting down the sheer number of spells available to the wizard would be tremendously helpful. Just as a minor example, everyone always says to ban Evocation right off the bat because, in large part, Conjuration has Orb of X going for it.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-14, 09:01 PM
It's not so much that the sorcerer is underpowered, it's that the wizard is overpowered.

Also, the dragon stuff is sort of overdone IMO.

dragonfan6490
2010-01-14, 09:49 PM
My small fix for Sorcerer's Spells Known is instead of the PhB way of handling it, I give them 2+Int modifier per level, with first level knowing 5 0 level spells and 3 1st level spells. This nets them 41 spells known besides cantrips assuming Intelligence of 10, which is 7 spells known more than the Core Sorcerer.

Runestar
2010-01-14, 10:04 PM
That's an ACF, not a feat.

Even better...:smallcool:


Even more than rebalancing the schools, cutting down the sheer number of spells available to the wizard would be tremendously helpful.

You will have to be extremely selective. Most of the spells present today aren't really worth the paper they are printed on, so banning them won't really represent any loss of power. My casters tend to favour a small selection of spells. most of which are from core, and the rest average 1-2 new spells from each splatbook.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-14, 10:05 PM
My small fix for Sorcerer's Spells Known is instead of the PhB way of handling it, I give them 2+Int modifier per level, with first level knowing 5 0 level spells and 3 1st level spells. This nets them 41 spells known besides cantrips assuming Intelligence of 10, which is 7 spells known more than the Core Sorcerer.

Shouldn't it be better to key that off their casting stat?

dragonfan6490
2010-01-14, 10:15 PM
Shouldn't it be better to key that off their casting stat?

Possibly, but my logic is that they are spells known. For me it seems to fit, but maybe not for you. I don't want to make them too powerful, I mean, any Sorcerer worth his salt at least a 16 Charisma at level 1, which would be 3 extra spells per level, which would net an additional 60 spells known by level 20. I'm thinking that the way it is, if someone has a 12 Intellligence, they get 20 extra spells known, since the Sorcerer still has to worry about Charisma, Constitution, and Dexterity before Intelligence.

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-14, 11:13 PM
Play the Generic Class Spellcaster in stead of Sorcerer. Your life will change forever.

This! it is everything the Sorc should have been. A true wild user of magic with no reguards if a spell is Divine or arcane.

Doc Roc
2010-01-14, 11:18 PM
It's not so much that the sorcerer is underpowered, it's that the wizard is overpowered.

Also, the dragon stuff is sort of overdone IMO.

Do you mean stuff from dragon magic?

2xMachina
2010-01-15, 12:04 AM
Merge them! Wizerers have to study their spell book each day, but can cast any of the spells spontaneously.

Temotei
2010-01-15, 12:09 AM
But Wizards, like people with Lays Chips, can't have just one Spellbook. You'll have your real spellbook, your backup, your fake, your warded, your stolen ones, ect.

I've had just one Lays chip. It was a dare. I was very tempted to take a second one, but I didn't. I'm a winner! :smallbiggrin:

:thog: nale proud of thog so thog go beat not-nale so nale proud of thog more

Runestar
2010-01-15, 12:13 AM
Does anyone remember the netherese arcanist class from the 2e netherese handbook? Uses spell point system, learns spells as a wizard, may cast any spell he knows spontaneously. :smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-01-15, 12:44 AM
Merge them! Wizerers have to study their spell book each day, but can cast any of the spells spontaneously.

That's too many positives. You would have all of the following in one class:

1) One of the game's "big 4" spell lists,
2) Uncapped spells known,
3) Spontaneous casting,
4) Full-speed progression.

Of the Tier 1, Wizards have 1, 2 and 4, as do Clerics, Archivists and Druids. Psions have 1, 3 and 4, whereas Sorcerers only have 1 and 3.

Only one base class has all 4 like you're suggesting - StP Erudites. (Artificers might as well, I don't know enough about them to be sure.)

2xMachina
2010-01-15, 12:54 AM
No! StP Erudite is weaker, cause of limited unique powers per day. It's the ultimate ACF/variant to break the wizard!

Actually no. Even better would be to give them at-will cast anything.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-15, 12:58 AM
so we're bumping wizard from tier one up to tier zero now?:smallconfused:

Soranar
2010-01-15, 01:53 AM
well wizards do have some drawbacks

getting all those spells and materials ain't cheap (high level scrolls can be really expensive) and all the batman gadgets they like also cost a bundle


in most campaigns , nerfing the wizard wouldn't help (since you usually have the one arcane spellcaster and maybe a bard), of course I'm talking about personal experience , some campaigns will have wiz/sorcerer groups

and if you do have both then you end up pissing off one player to help out another , which is not good in keeping your players happy and cooperating

my personal fixes to help out sorcerers (instead of nerfing wizards) and try to give them things consistent with their class

skillpoints 4x : they spend no time learning spells, logically they would have more time to learn other things

eschew material as a bonus feat level 1: the power comes from them, I don't get the logic of using dirt and bat poop to help them channel their soul

bonus metamagic feats as wizard : innate talents should become easier to use with experience

better spell progression than a wizard : same level spells yet with sorcerer uses per day to compensate your lack of diversity (essentially just make the sorcerer 1 level higher in spellcasting but use the same table)

diplomacy and intimidate as class skills: they're usually the prettiest , most impressive, people around, it makes no sense that they can't be a proper "face" or that calling lighting from their fingers doesn't make people wary

now, unless you're a venerable kobold dragon shenanigan, you're still not as strong as a wizard but you get enough minor boosts to give you an edge in certain situations instead of being completely weaker

Alcopop
2010-01-15, 02:02 AM
Races of the Dragon has some fantastic sorc only stuff, Versitile Caster (favorite feat in the game), the Wings of X line, Practicle Metamagic.

Plus you get to be sexy!

No amount of magic on a wizard will ever hide the ugly. No not even that.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-15, 02:11 AM
No amount of magic on a wizard will ever hide the ugly. No not even that.

Polymorph.

Alcopop
2010-01-15, 02:12 AM
Polymorph.

Congratulations, your now the worlds ugliest nymph.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-15, 02:16 AM
Congratulations, your now the worlds ugliest nymph.


*casts detect evil*
*senses that it is evil*
*noms*
GULP

Alcopop
2010-01-15, 02:24 AM
*casts detect evil*
*senses that it is evil*
*noms*
GULP

Hrwhat????????????

Eldariel
2010-01-15, 02:24 AM
Congratulations, your now the worlds ugliest nymph.

Considering you're a nymph, that's not saying much.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-15, 02:24 AM
Hrwhat????????????


I'm a Demon/Celestial Dragon Paladin.

I eat evil things.:smalltongue:

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-15, 02:25 AM
Races of the Dragon has some fantastic sorc only stuff, Versitile Caster (favorite feat in the game), the Wings of X line, Practicle Metamagic.

Plus you get to be sexy!

No amount of magic on a wizard will ever hide the ugly. No not even that.

Yeah but... What if you don't wanna have dragon fluff?:smalleek:

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-15, 02:28 AM
None of those were tightly tied to dragons.

Alcopop
2010-01-15, 02:29 AM
I'm a Demon/Celestial Dragon Paladin.

I eat evil things.:smalltongue:

Thats a lot of templates!

Hrm... now what would a Fox/Cancer Mages escape artist check be like...

Optimystik
2010-01-15, 02:32 AM
No! StP Erudite is weaker, cause of limited unique powers per day. It's the ultimate ACF/variant to break the wizard!

Nitpick: UP/D only matters if you manifest eleven different spells/powers in one day, and even then you're free to manifest those first eleven until you run out of power points. (Not to mention still having access to spell-trigger items, powerstones etc.)


Congratulations, your now the worlds ugliest nymph.

Isn't that like being the world's softest diamond?

Alcopop
2010-01-15, 02:36 AM
Isn't that like being the world's softest diamond?

More like being a lump of cold grey graphite. At least in my mind. As a Fact.

Soranar
2010-01-15, 02:40 AM
I wonder what a nymph with 6-8 charisma looks like?

stratch that I don't want to know

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-15, 02:45 AM
Technically, you're not ugly. Charisma is not just looks.

In fact, since Polymorph turns you into an average member of the race, it stands to reason that the Polymorphed Nymph is physically indistinguishable. It's in the interaction that the lack of charisma is evident.

Put a shy 32 year old chubby virgin in the body of a supermodel. Watch as he/she still fumbles his/her way through any social setting.

Optimystik
2010-01-15, 02:45 AM
More like being a lump of cold grey graphite. At least in my mind. As a Fact.

If said wizard wants to look fetching, that's pathetically easy to wrangle as well. Eagle's Splendor, various illusions, heck, even a Nymph's cloak.

Also, keep in mind that Charisma is not merely for looks, nor do looks solely depend on Charisma.

Alcopop
2010-01-15, 02:56 AM
Technically, you're not ugly. Charisma is not just looks.

In fact, since Polymorph turns you into an average member of the race, it stands to reason that the Polymorphed Nymph is physically indistinguishable. It's in the interaction that the lack of charisma is evident.

Say what you will bro, use your FACTS and RULES but true beauty ALWAYS SHINES THOUGH. and it's based off charisma.



Put a shy 32 year old chubby virgin in the body of a supermodel. Watch as he/she still fumbles his/her way through any social setting.

Actually I think they'd be too busy fumbeling with othe- WHOOPS!

2xMachina
2010-01-15, 05:01 AM
Char... I think it's based on a combination of looks and willpower. A low Char, but beautiful nymph would be very persuadable... (since a large part of the Charisma would be contributed by looks, leaving next to none for personality/willpower).

Rainbownaga
2010-01-15, 05:10 AM
Char... I think it's based on a combination of looks and willpower. A low Char, but beautiful nymph would be very persuadable... (since a large part of the Charisma would be contributed by looks, leaving next to none for personality/willpower).

Why does everybody keep saying that charisma = willpower?

...Oh yeah, they redefined all the mental stats until nobody really understands what they mean any more. Silly me.

Killer Angel
2010-01-15, 06:40 AM
Why is it that casters who prepare their spells ahead of time get higher spells earlier?


Bad design.
The ability to cast a greater number of spells, is balanced by a minor choice and versatility; no need to force sorcerers to learn high spells later than wiz.


It just seems that the system is out to unfairly punish players who don't like to spend precious time to choose cast spells daily.


Fixed for you. :smallwink:



Let's go even further. Wizards basically need one stat. The rest can be 10 and they're just fine. INT drives their spell power and their skills. CON is the only thing a wizard might need. The rest could even be in the negatives.
But Sorcerers and Bards need CHA and CON and then INT for skills.


:smallconfused:
It's true that Sorcerers need one more high stat than the wizard but...
seriously? Wizard don't need Dex?!?
Exceptions exist, but it's almost always considered their secondary stat.

Emmerask
2010-01-15, 06:49 AM
I agree that spontaneous casters are screwed compared to wizards.A dm can limit the spells known for wizards with not allowing the magic mart but that still does not close the gap.
I do agree that itīs bad game design but not on the sorcerers side (they are more balanced then wizards) but on the wizards design part :smallwink:



Apparently, you've never played a Kobold before. Starting at 6th level (possibly sooner), Kobold Sorcerers get their spells a level earlier than Wizards do. If built properly, you can get spells 4 levels earlier than normal.

Maybe thats because 99% of the dms wonīt allow such cheese?

Killer Angel
2010-01-15, 08:04 AM
I do agree that itīs bad game design but not on the sorcerers side (they are more balanced then wizards) but on the wizards design part :smallwink:


Sometime, i miss the old different xp advancement of Advanced D&D...

kvanever
2010-01-15, 11:49 PM
I think the reason that wizards get spells a level earlier is the same reason they start with Scribe Scroll and get bonus item creation feats. A wizard has huge variety, but fewer spells per day.

So wizards rely on scrolls, wands, and staves, not only to boost their casting per day for adventures that have multiple encounters between a full night's rest, but also to highlight their ability to prepare their more esoteric spells ahead of time and have them available as scrolls.

The cost is obviously a lot of experience points for item creation, so a wizard could very realistically be one or two levels behind the rest of his party, and so to match the spell level of the group, he gets his spells a level earlier. In many cases, he will also find himself one of the primary sources of magic items for the rest of his party, which can put a wizard as many as three or four levels behind very easily.

And wizards have great difficulty improving their spell pool. A sorcerer can reach his full potential just by gaining levels. A wizard gets two spells per level on his own, and if he wants more he has to find them in scrolls, spellbooks, or through expensive research. That, in my experience, means they have to track down and kill other wizards to get those spellbooks. Not always easy. Being a wizard is a hard life.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 11:55 PM
charisma is beauty AND other stuff... if your other stuff is terrible enough, you can be beutiful and still have low CHA.
EX: the typical vapid female celebrity.

Superglucose
2010-01-16, 06:45 AM
You know I want to point something out:

"No love for the spontaneous caster"

So we start talking about how it's only fair that Sorc casting progression should be faster?

Wrong direction! It's still 9th level casting, it's still more powerful than anything a fighter could dish out. Proposed fix:

Slow Wizard progression to the sorc speed.

The reason I don't like the idea of perking sorcs is this: saying "We ought to perk sorcs" is saying "Sorcs need a perk" when they don't: they need a nerf, to bring them in line with that massive sea of other classes known as tiers 7-3. So I'm going to say it: Sorcs need a nerf.

I will grant that they need less nerfing than a Druid does, but none the less, they definitely do not need to be any better than they already are.

DementedFellow
2010-01-16, 06:52 AM
You know I want to point something out:

"No love for the spontaneous caster"

So we start talking about how it's only fair that Sorc casting progression should be faster?

Wrong direction! It's still 9th level casting, it's still more powerful than anything a fighter could dish out. Proposed fix:

Slow Wizard progression to the sorc speed.

The reason I don't like the idea of perking sorcs is this: saying "We ought to perk sorcs" is saying "Sorcs need a perk" when they don't: they need a nerf, to bring them in line with that massive sea of other classes known as tiers 7-3. So I'm going to say it: Sorcs need a nerf.

I will grant that they need less nerfing than a Druid does, but none the less, they definitely do not need to be any better than they already are.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Basically the Sorcerer gets two class features. Spontaneous Casting and A familiar. No bonus feat or anything. What other base class has as many blank spaces as class features?

The spontaneous casting is nerfed by comparison to the wizard and they get fewer spells known. Metamagic hurts the sorc's damage cap in relation to the wizard. Did I mention fewer spells known? It's big.

And lets face it, familiars are more a liability at higher levels. Who wants an albatross around your neck?

Vizzerdrix
2010-01-16, 07:33 AM
I couldn't disagree with you more. Basically the Sorcerer gets two class features. Spontaneous Casting and A familiar. No bonus feat or anything. What other base class has as many blank spaces as class features?

The spontaneous casting is nerfed by comparison to the wizard and they get fewer spells known. Metamagic hurts the sorc's damage cap in relation to the wizard. Did I mention fewer spells known? It's big.

And lets face it, familiars are more a liability at higher levels. Who wants an albatross around your neck?

Clerics get just as few class abilities (spells and turning) but they also get ALL cleric spells.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-16, 07:34 AM
And wizards have great difficulty improving their spell pool. A sorcerer can reach his full potential just by gaining levels. A wizard gets two spells per level on his own, and if he wants more he has to find them in scrolls, spellbooks, or through expensive research. That, in my experience, means they have to track down and kill other wizards to get those spellbooks. Not always easy. Being a wizard is a hard life.

What are you talking about? At higher levels, the sorcerer gets 3 spells known per spell level, while the wizard is guaranteed at least 4.At mid levels, they both know 4 spells per spell level assuming nothing is done to add spells known A sorcerer can "reach his full potential just by gaining levels" because there's less potential to be gained.

Let me repeat: A sorcerer will know fewer higher level spells than a wizard who does not seek to add to his spell book, and as many mid level ones.

kvanever
2010-01-16, 07:41 AM
Let me repeat: A sorcerer will know fewer higher level spells than a wizard who does not seek to add to his spell book, and as many mid level ones.

Agreed. But, is one extra spell known per level worth two extra spells per spell level per day?

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-16, 07:42 AM
Agreed. But, is one extra spell known per level worth two extra spells per spell level per day?

Wizard is one behind if a specialist, and none behind if he's a focused specialist.

Superglucose
2010-01-16, 07:46 AM
I couldn't disagree with you more. Basically the Sorcerer gets two class features. Spontaneous Casting and A familiar. No bonus feat or anything. What other base class has as many blank spaces as class features?
By that logic Monk is the most awesome class ever, I mean it gets something every level!

I'm not saying that Sorc is as good as Wizard, I'm saying it's absolutely bananas to say "Sorceror is week and needs to be buffed."

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-16, 07:49 AM
And lets face it, familiars are more a liability at higher levels. Who wants an albatross around your neck?

Imps let you Commune.

kvanever
2010-01-16, 07:51 AM
Wizard is one behind if a specialist, and none behind if he's a focused specialist.

Specialist, I think, seriously weakens a wizard though. Losing access to two or three schools of magic cuts down on his main strength, which is versatility.

I think a focused specialist who gets the rules as written number of spells known per level is not that different from a sorcerer. Severely limited spell selection, higher spell levels per day, but unable to spontaneously cast.

But, I think we can both agree that it's unlikely for a wizard to reach high levels without getting access to at least some additional spells through scrolls and enemy spellbooks. In light of that, I think giving up three schools, and the ability to learn, craft, and use them even as scrolls, wands, or staves, detracts considerably from the wizard's main strength, which is item creation and variety.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-16, 07:54 AM
Specialist, I think, seriously weakens a wizard though. Losing access to two or three schools of magic cuts down on his main strength, which is versatility.
I think a focused specialist who gets the rules as written number of spells known per level is not that different from a sorcerer. Severely limited spell selection, higher spell levels per day, but unable to spontaneously cast.
But, I think we can both agree that it's unlikely for a wizard to reach high levels without getting access to at least some additional spells through scrolls and enemy spellbooks. In light of that, I think giving up three schools, and the ability to learn, craft, and use them even as scrolls, wands, or staves, detracts considerably from the wizard's main strength, which is item creation and variety.
Giving up schools you'd never use (Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy, for example), in exchange for more mileage out of your favored school (say, Transmutation) only makes you stronger.

Superglucose
2010-01-16, 08:13 AM
The only thing I can add is that the problem with spontaneous casting isn't just that Wizards can catch up (though even PP has to admit dumping Ench, Necro, and Evocation does give up a fair amount of versatility), but that at high levels you don't really run out of spells.

kvanever
2010-01-16, 08:19 AM
Giving up schools you'd never use (Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy, for example), in exchange for more mileage out of your favored school (say, Transmutation) only makes you stronger.

I agree, in any situation where you can solve the problem with Transmutation, but what if you really need to interrogate the boss mob you just subdued with your iron bands of bilarro? He's a mid level blackguard, basically immune to intimidation. Charm Person can do the trick.

It's not my most inspired example, but the best strength of the wizard is outside of battle. I think perhaps our disagreement is about the platonic wizard. A perfect wizard spends all his time, money, and effort collecting new spells. If he's good and the DM gives him free rein, he'll know dozens and dozens. So even if he didn't prepare it, he's put all his weird, very situational spells down onto scrolls. So for that one in a million situation where you really, really need someone to cast, I dunno, Magic Jar or something insane, he's ready to go. And for that to work, he can't have prohibited schools.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-16, 08:40 AM
I agree, in any situation where you can solve the problem with Transmutation, but what if you really need to interrogate the boss mob you just subdued with your iron bands of bilarro? He's a mid level blackguard, basically immune to intimidation. Charm Person can do the trick.




This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.

Good luck with that.

Runestar
2010-01-16, 08:53 AM
Specialist, I think, seriously weakens a wizard though. Losing access to two or three schools of magic cuts down on his main strength, which is versatility.

Only if you actually get to use them all. In reality, I think it is redundant knowing every spell in the game if you are going to be using less than a tenth of them.

Conversely, I have always been irritated by how quickly wizards run out of slots. I have tried out the focused specialist variant and find that I really don't mind giving up 3 schools for extra slots. And the playstyle is sufficiently different from a sorc that I don't view "why not simply play a sorc instead" as a viable alternative.

Superglucose
2010-01-16, 09:05 AM
Really? I find I have no need to specialize for slots beyond about 7th level. I specialize my wizards mainly to keep in the game at low levels.

Runestar
2010-01-16, 09:32 AM
Really? I find I have no need to specialize for slots beyond about 7th level.

While it is true that around that lv, a wizard will typically have ample spells still left uncast at the end of the day, I noticed the majority of these tend to be lower lv spells which I wouldn't be casting anyways simply because they are too crappy to make much of an impact in battle. So they are pretty much dead weight outside of buffing the party (if they need any).

Focused specialist, above everything else, gives me extra castings of a wizard's higher lv spells, which is really where his money is. For example, a 7th lv wizard with 18int has 2 4th lv slots; the same focused specialist has 4. By the 3rd encounter, the wizard would have to fall back on his 3rd lv spells, but the FS can still use 4th lv spells. This repeats for each lower lv of spells. :smallsmile:

Optimystik
2010-01-16, 09:46 AM
Specialist, I think, seriously weakens a wizard though. Losing access to two or three schools of magic cuts down on his main strength, which is versatility.

I think a focused specialist who gets the rules as written number of spells known per level is not that different from a sorcerer. Severely limited spell selection, higher spell levels per day, but unable to spontaneously cast.

But, I think we can both agree that it's unlikely for a wizard to reach high levels without getting access to at least some additional spells through scrolls and enemy spellbooks. In light of that, I think giving up three schools, and the ability to learn, craft, and use them even as scrolls, wands, or staves, detracts considerably from the wizard's main strength, which is item creation and variety.

This is a myth, pure and simple.

FS Wizard != "prepared sorcerer." There is no comparison between the two. An FS Wizard, no matter how many schools he gives up, still has two major advantage over sorcerers - unlimited spells known, and odd-numbered spell progression.

Please read Treantmonk's article (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864630/Focused_Specialist_is_better_than_you_think) on the subject, where he exposes these common FS misconceptions for what they really are: bunk.

taltamir
2010-01-16, 11:16 AM
You know I want to point something out:

"No love for the spontaneous caster"

So we start talking about how it's only fair that Sorc casting progression should be faster?

Wrong direction! It's still 9th level casting, it's still more powerful than anything a fighter could dish out. Proposed fix:

Slow Wizard progression to the sorc speed.

The reason I don't like the idea of perking sorcs is this: saying "We ought to perk sorcs" is saying "Sorcs need a perk" when they don't: they need a nerf, to bring them in line with that massive sea of other classes known as tiers 7-3. So I'm going to say it: Sorcs need a nerf.

I will grant that they need less nerfing than a Druid does, but none the less, they definitely do not need to be any better than they already are.

to be honest, maybe a combination of both. some things need to be nerfed, some things need to be buffed.
See 4e for reference. or heck, even pathfinder.