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Akisa
2010-01-14, 09:23 PM
I was wondering if Arrogant elves are common for stereotype for people and if so where do people get the idea elves are arrogant?

taltamir
2010-01-14, 09:32 PM
they are prettier, smarter, more magical, and live for almost a thousand years...
henceforth they must be really arrogant. (because, apparently, recognizing your superiority means you are arrogant)

Drakevarg
2010-01-14, 09:33 PM
dey iz also squishier, whiches why da orcz think they stoopid.

leon666
2010-01-14, 09:34 PM
And I will call him Squishey and he will be my Squishey <3

awa
2010-01-14, 09:53 PM
its just something you see a lot in fiction. Although often its that the elves get to tell every one else how much better they are then humans (often times humans agree becuase the elves are just so super special awesome) This was often then subverted.
see
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitleukqnnj0yvqci?from=Main.CantArgueWithElves
and
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-14, 09:54 PM
{Scrubbed}

Dienekes
2010-01-14, 09:58 PM
The Silmarillion and Tolkien for me anyway.

It wasn't so much the authors intent that they were arrogant, it is only that there overall demeanor of being a superior people and mistrusting men comes into light when after reading the Sil you realize they've made bigger and worse mistakes than men ever have and still give them crap.

DabblerWizard
2010-01-14, 10:09 PM
I imagine Tolkien's influence as a staple magical-fantasy writer, has something to do with the notion that Elves are arrogant.

I like that D&D 4.0 divided elves into down-to-earth woodsy creatures, and left the tingly magical aloof aspect to their Eladrin brethren.

While it does make sense to say that Elves are arrogant for reasons X, and Y, it is also the case that any group of beings can have a strong bias towards their own qualities, on top of snobbery, leading towards arrogance.

The staple elf in my campaign world is more isolationist than pretentious, for instance. It's all in the flavoring.

[Edit]

Ninja'd apparently.

Mando Knight
2010-01-14, 10:19 PM
See, Tolkein's elves weren't so much "arrogant" as they were aloof. Then other people, having less finesse with their writing skills, make them arrogant because they can't handle not-arrogant aloof.

Flickerdart
2010-01-14, 10:24 PM
{Scrubbed}
The Fey, from which the concept of Elves descends, were incredibly powerful, selfish and downright malicious creatures. Discworld's Elves, for example, harken back to the days when Elves weren't hippies, they would gut you (with magic) for their own amusement. Asking why elves are arrogant is like asking why dragons fly or why Vampires are Always Evil. It's always been like that. Recent literature and "literature" has, perhaps, subverted that expectation, but that's no reason to lose the roots of the species.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-01-14, 10:28 PM
Obligatory TV Tropes Links

Our Elves Are Better (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter) because they are a Superior Species (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperiorSpecies).

If that doesn't give you enough background, I'm sure I can find more links :smallamused:

Optimystik
2010-01-14, 11:13 PM
Dragonlance was definitely a large source of the "elves are greater than thou" stereotype. And Lackey didn't help much either.

kentma57
2010-01-14, 11:17 PM
...should only be played with friends who appreciate RPing.

dragonfan6490
2010-01-14, 11:59 PM
Obligatory TV Tropes Links

Our Elves Are Better (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter) because they are a Superior Species (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperiorSpecies).

If that doesn't give you enough background, I'm sure I can find more links :smallamused:

CURSE YOU AND YOUR TV TROPES! :smalltongue:

Dimers
2010-01-15, 12:11 AM
A group that is not merely different but recognizably better, and doesn't deny their advantages, will come across as arrogant. Separatist cultures are often seen as a sign of arrogance. And elves are often portrayed with mild expressions, which many people infer to mean that they're intellectually arrogant and will look down on anyone emotional. Since any given elf has at LEAST one of those traits in any game system or world, on the whole they've got quite an arrogant vibe.

Oh, and arrogance is a survival trait within drow society.

It's funny ... orcs and dwarves are also often portrayed as arrogant, but less stylishly and intelligently so. Gnomes and halflings are pretty much immune to it, though.

Temotei
2010-01-15, 12:15 AM
Psh. Any race can be arrogant. Go play an evil arrogant gnome. And make sure they're really evil. Enough so to make me reconsider ever playing a gnome. :smallcool:

Optimystik
2010-01-15, 12:25 AM
Psh. Any race can be arrogant. Go play an evil arrogant gnome. And make sure they're really evil. Enough so to make me reconsider ever playing a gnome. :smallcool:

The trouble with arrogant gnomes - they are usually portrayed as very curious and open to other societies, where elves tend towards insularity and seclusion. A xenophobic gnome is like a xenophobic kender - possible, but highly unlikely.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-15, 01:24 AM
Another part of the issue is that they're wrongfully arrogant. They've got a society that has existed since the creation of the world and they're barely up to the same tech level as the inferior humans. They're magical...in no appreciable way. They're smarter than us, but they require 100 years to graduate high school. And they're generally the ones behind the ancient cataclysm, the evil warlord, or the sealed evil in a can. And yet they're pissed at us for cutting down trees. :smallamused:

JonestheSpy
2010-01-15, 01:36 AM
Elves seem arrogant to humans for similar reasons that adults seem arrogant, bossy, know-it-alls to teenagers.

The difference is that most humans don't live long enough to experience the shift in perspective most ex-teenagers do...

TheCountAlucard
2010-01-15, 02:14 AM
Dwarves, unlike elves, are awesome. According to the book, I've been a dwarf for a minimum of 140 years, and I've never had any complaints. And we have beards, and axes, and beards! And we invented booze.

Elves cause cancer. Yes, my grandmother died of elven cancer; it was given to her by an elven witch. Elves are liars as well; they'll go on and on about how they're not ruled by an immortal council of evil elven witches who drink the blood of dwarven children and spit it on each other, in villainous orgies of hellfire and hatemongering. Elves have leprosy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI)

Crow
2010-01-15, 02:19 AM
It wasn't so much the authors intent that they were arrogant, it is only that there overall demeanor of being a superior people and mistrusting men comes into light when after reading the Sil you realize they've made bigger and worse mistakes than men ever have and still give them crap.

Got that right!

Optimystik
2010-01-15, 02:19 AM
Another part of the issue is that they're wrongfully arrogant. They've got a society that has existed since the creation of the world and they're barely up to the same tech level as the inferior humans. They're magical...in no appreciable way.

This is generally the reason dwarves look askance at them, according to Races of Stone. They believe elves are irresponsible given the length of their lives and the perspective it should provide. Not to mention, few dwarves (or humans) understand the importance of venerating nature to the detriment of progress.

Although, on the flip side of the coin, an elf might argue that technological advancement is not the evolutionary path intelligent races should be striving for, but rather integration with nature - which has existed before, and will exist after, sentient life fades.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-15, 02:20 AM
I was wondering if Arrogant elves are common for stereotype for people and if so where do people get the idea elves are arrogant?

From Eragon.

Eldariel
2010-01-15, 02:22 AM
Dwarves, unlike elves, are awesome. According to the book, I've been a dwarf for a minimum of 140 years, and I've never had any complaints. And we have beards, and axes, and beards! And we invented booze.

Elves cause cancer. Yes, my grandmother died of elven cancer; it was given to her by an elven witch. Elves are liars as well; they'll go on and on about how they're not ruled by an immortal council of evil elven witches who drink the blood of dwarven children and spit it on each other, in villainous orgies of hellfire and hatemongering. Elves have leprosy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI)

I think this is a perfect example of why Dwarves have a racial Charisma-penalty.


From Eragon.

Yet another thing wrong with it.

FuegoAzul
2010-01-15, 02:22 AM
Its to balance out the fact that their freaking awesome, what with the immortality and magic affinity and all. They need some disadvantage.

Eldariel
2010-01-15, 02:23 AM
Its to balance out the fact that their freaking awesome, what with the immortality and magic affinity and all. They need some disadvantage.

Their disadvantage is living too long. Duh. I mean, you'd have some degree of detachment to other races too if you were three thousand years old.

golentan
2010-01-15, 02:26 AM
"Elves are not arrogant. As an elf, I can assure you of this from the perspective of my superior intellect and experience. Now, how about you take your army elsewhere and let the 15 of us deal with the orcish menace."

Quote from a game.

FuegoAzul
2010-01-15, 02:27 AM
Their disadvantage is living too long. Duh. I mean, you'd have some degree of detachment to other races too if you were three thousand years old.

That's true. Tolkien tried to balance that out with the sailing away from the world and all but that was more annoying then anything. its like "Oh look the world is getting screwed over... Whatever."

Longcat
2010-01-15, 02:28 AM
I was wondering if Arrogant elves are common for stereotype for people and if so where do people get the idea elves are arrogant?

I always assumed it was designer's intent to portray them as snobbish, better-than-though, wine-sipping aryans.

Dienekes
2010-01-15, 02:36 AM
Their disadvantage is living too long. Duh. I mean, you'd have some degree of detachment to other races too if you were three thousand years old.

Ah yes, the great disadvantage there, living too long (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CursedWithAwesome). It's a wonder anyone ever plays them with such a massive weight around their skinny necks.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 03:27 AM
I think this is a perfect example of why Dwarves have a racial Charisma-penalty.

Are you kidding? that was charisma up the wazoo! dwarves are awesomer then I ever imagined!


"Elves are not arrogant. As an elf, I can assure you of this from the perspective of my superior intellect and experience. Now, how about you take your army elsewhere and let the 15 of us deal with the orcish menace."

Quote from a game.

what game?


Although, on the flip side of the coin, an elf might argue that technological advancement is not the evolutionary path intelligent races should be striving for, but rather integration with nature - which has existed before, and will exist after, sentient life fades.

evolution isn't a path, nor does it have levels... evolution can result in a change occurring and then getting undone, because conditions change, evolution doesn't have a will or a desire or direction...
besides which, technology is the key to nature preservation and reacclimation.
unless a few billion people volunteer to die to prevent over consumption of "natural" growing food resources that is.

Coidzor
2010-01-15, 03:30 AM
I think this is a perfect example of why Dwarves have a racial Charisma-penalty.

Which is why they're pure comedy. Why else would he say he ruled ass? Crass comedy!


"Elves are not arrogant. As an elf, I can assure you of this from the perspective of my superior intellect and experience. Now, how about you take your army elsewhere and let the 15 of us deal with the orcish menace."

Quote from a game.

<_< Battle for Wesnoth, right?

Eldariel
2010-01-15, 03:32 AM
Are you kidding? that was charisma up the wazoo! dwarves are awesomer then I ever imagined!

Agreed, I think "his charisma is up in his wazoo" is a good way to put it. :smalltongue:

Thames
2010-01-15, 04:44 AM
Obligatory TV Tropes Links

Our Elves Are Better (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter) because they are a Superior Species (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperiorSpecies).

If that doesn't give you enough background, I'm sure I can find more links :smallamused:

Please do - You found one I haven't read before and I want MOAR

Zen Master
2010-01-15, 04:52 AM
It is important to point out that elves are clearly, and visibly, deeply flawed.

Despite all their 'obvious advantages', how little have they achieved? They did not build the dominant culture of the world, they did not conquer the world, theirs is not the music and literature and art of the world.

No - despite being clearly 'superior' in every way, the elves have in their souls or their culture or their entire racial make-up something that drags them down. All their potential goes to waste. Call it laziness, or lack of ambition, or disinterest - fact is, it is we humans who shape and mould the world, and the elves will either adapt or decline.

Because maybe elves are arrogant - but when it comes down to it, no one is as arrogant as a human.

Thames
2010-01-15, 05:00 AM
Yeah that depends on the setting you're in - In the one I play in humans have never achieved anything and elves and dwarves are responsible for almost all innovation; the only reason humans have any technology at all is the elves gifted them with it (or they stole it).

Alot of settings use this explaination to varying degrees for example The Realms had humans taught magic by the elves which was a huge leap forward provided for them with the partial exception being netheril which learnt basic magic from elves then learnt from another race in the form of the netherese scrolls; armour was learnt from the dwarves etc etc - humans very rarely innovate to the degree of "as good as you in 1 millionth the time" in fact I have never ever seen a setting where humans came up with everything they knew independently and not have some gifted upon them / traded to them by elves, dwarves, gods, spirits, creator races etc...

Finally in the realms humans being a creator race have only recently accomplished what all the other creator races did ages ago, and STILL havent matched them. So they really suck at innovation in some settings.

Zen Master
2010-01-15, 05:27 AM
Yeah that depends on the setting you're in - In the one I play in humans have never achieved anything and elves and dwarves are responsible for almost all innovation; the only reason humans have any technology at all is the elves gifted them with it (or they stole it).

Alot of settings use this explaination to varying degrees for example The Realms had humans taught magic by the elves which was a huge leap forward provided for them with the partial exception being netheril which learnt basic magic from elves then learnt from another race in the form of the netherese scrolls; armour was learnt from the dwarves etc etc - humans very rarely innovate to the degree of "as good as you in 1 millionth the time" in fact I have never ever seen a setting where humans came up with everything they knew independently and not have some gifted upon them / traded to them by elves, dwarves, gods, spirits, creator races etc...

Finally in the realms humans being a creator race have only recently accomplished what all the other creator races did ages ago, and STILL havent matched them. So they really suck at innovation in some settings.

The older races tend to draw a lot of pride and justification from the fact that they came up with things first, yes. But what difference does that make?

Yes, the elves created magic, then sat on it for millenia, doing nothing.
Yes, the dwarves invented mettalurgy, then sat on it for millenia, doing nothing.

And the goblins ate the dwarves, and the humans drove out the elves. And humans took one good, long look at the inventions of both races, thunk to themselves 'wow, that's neat - I'll do that too.' And generally did a lot more with those things than their original inventors ever did.

Also, being far faster, humans would have invented both in time. But being inquisitive, they discoved it by observation (of elves and dwarves) rather than experimentation first.

It's all fluff, and it's all opinion and perspective. If you like the old races, you will portray them in that light. If you like humans, vice versa.

The really important thing to remember is that none of it is real. There is no official yardstick for humans, elves or dwarves, so anyones opinion is equally valid.

Dixieboy
2010-01-15, 05:59 AM
I believe there was some youtube video of a D&D elf and dwarf arguing about this.

The elf gave up due to the impenetrable logic of the dwarf.
Something about eating children.

Eldan
2010-01-15, 06:46 AM
The trouble with arrogant gnomes - they are usually portrayed as very curious and open to other societies, where elves tend towards insularity and seclusion. A xenophobic gnome is like a xenophobic kender - possible, but highly unlikely.

See, in my last game world, there was a secret society of gnome illusionists and changelings (they were magically created by gnomes as a servant species). They only existed in legends, but were infiltrating society. Their stronghold was a flying, invisible fortress, up in the clouds.

Drakevarg
2010-01-15, 08:20 AM
At least in the DnD-verse, the idea of elves having a "better perspective" due to age is actually false. Elves don't live ridiculously long, becoming wiserer than mere mortals for it... they live their lives exactly like humans... IN SLOW MOTION. Consider :vaarsuvius: . Practiced for decades, if not centuries, simply to become a 1st level Wizard. Whereas a human doing the same thing would take about a decade.

As for physical superiority... hah. Their ability bonuses come out to 0. Leaving... Low-Light Vision, better hearing and sight, minor magical resistance, and the ability to meditate for four hours a day and convince everyone in the room they weren't sleeping.

And as mentioned before, they're still technologically on par with humanity and have smaller numbers. I think most of their arrogance is cultural. They are, after all, the brainchild of Corellon Larethian, and the only reason they weren't stomped out by the savage races, which are more populous AND don't take 60 years to graduate kindergarten, is because they have a GOD on their side.

And having a god backing you up is an entirely reasonable excuse for arrogance. Similarly, don't accuse a man sitting in a tank of being cocky.

Toric
2010-01-15, 09:08 AM
One reason that I see behind elven arrogance is the fact that they've lived so long and seen so many people come and go that they start to really not care about what you think. They've heard it all before. This is something I'd like to see tested in a campaign. Play for a few sessions, introduce some NPC's, complete a few adventures, and then time-skip about 30 years. The elves and dwarves of the party get to meet the next generation of NPC's, while any human PC's they've bonded with have likely retired from old age. Describe how the world has changed in this short time. Introduce new NPC's, kinda like the ones before, but with different minor qualities. Complete another few adventures, then time-skip another 30 years. Watch the players to see whether they become jaded at meeting yet another King of Scorfshagen who wants to talk about fishing or they are genuinely interested in talking to the great-great-grandson of the guy who gave them their very first quest.

When you've seen people grow up and make the same mistakes along the way about five or so times, wouldn't you start to assume you know better than the next group of saplings?

Optimystik
2010-01-15, 09:47 AM
evolution isn't a path, nor does it have levels... evolution can result in a chance occurring and then getting undone, because conditions change, evolution doesn't have a will or a desire or direction...
besides which, technology is the key to nature preservation and reacclimation.
unless a few billion people volunteer to die to prevent over consumption of "natural" growing food resources that is.

Hang on buddy. I'm on your side. I was merely pointing out the elves' perspective.

Elves, more than any other humanoid race, strive to integrate nature and civilization. They live in the forest, but build houses, keep books, make fires to cook their food and keep warm, and even forge steel.

Among other humanoid races, you will typically only find such an attitude among druids and clerics of nature deities. But this is a racial attitude of elves as a whole, and that sets them apart from the others.


It is important to point out that elves are clearly, and visibly, deeply flawed.

Despite all their 'obvious advantages', how little have they achieved? They did not build the dominant culture of the world, they did not conquer the world, theirs is not the music and literature and art of the world.

No - despite being clearly 'superior' in every way, the elves have in their souls or their culture or their entire racial make-up something that drags them down. All their potential goes to waste. Call it laziness, or lack of ambition, or disinterest - fact is, it is we humans who shape and mould the world, and the elves will either adapt or decline.

Because maybe elves are arrogant - but when it comes down to it, no one is as arrogant as a human.

I disagree - humans' ambition and strength does not come from being arrogant. Rather, they realize the other races have inherent advantages (such as longer lifespans), so humans have something to prove. Arrogance from a human would mean being convinced we are superior and resting on our laurels, but humans in fantasy do the exact opposite - we expand aggressively and subjugate the other races without even thinking precisely because we don't consider ourselves innately superior. That perceived weakness makes us try all the harder.

Yukitsu
2010-01-15, 12:29 PM
In my group, I most commonly play elves, and it irritates the other group members that I typically play people that aren't "looks down his/her nose" arrogant to other people. It irritates them even more because I still play them with a superiority complex, they just do it all by example and quick wit.

In sum, it's even more annoying when the elf isn't arrogant, but does in fact deserve the opportunity to be so.

Dienekes
2010-01-15, 12:43 PM
It is important to point out that elves are clearly, and visibly, deeply flawed.

Despite all their 'obvious advantages', how little have they achieved? They did not build the dominant culture of the world, they did not conquer the world, theirs is not the music and literature and art of the world.

No - despite being clearly 'superior' in every way, the elves have in their souls or their culture or their entire racial make-up something that drags them down. All their potential goes to waste. Call it laziness, or lack of ambition, or disinterest - fact is, it is we humans who shape and mould the world, and the elves will either adapt or decline.

Because maybe elves are arrogant - but when it comes down to it, no one is as arrogant as a human.

You're logic is flawed. Humans shape the world therefore they are arrogant. Shaping the world has nothing to do with direct personal arrogance, it has to do with cultural values and success.

Coidzor
2010-01-15, 01:06 PM
I disagree - humans' ambition and strength does not come from being arrogant. Rather, they realize the other races have inherent advantages (such as longer lifespans), so humans have something to prove. Arrogance from a human would mean being convinced we are superior and resting on our laurels, but humans in fantasy do the exact opposite - we expand aggressively and subjugate the other races without even thinking precisely because we don't consider ourselves innately superior. That perceived weakness makes us try all the harder.

<_< So humans are a race of determinators (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Determinator) and that's where that extra feat comes from, eh?

loopy
2010-01-15, 01:35 PM
In my group, I most commonly play elves, and it irritates the other group members that I typically play people that aren't "looks down his/her nose" arrogant to other people. It irritates them even more because I still play them with a superiority complex, they just do it all by example and quick wit.

We had an elf like that in our group. He ended up getting eaten when he tried to talk down to a Tiamat cultist riding a blue dragon. :smallbiggrin:

jmbrown
2010-01-15, 01:35 PM
Elves have always been better than everyone else. Even the Norse harped on this with their elves being divine, perfect humans that also happened to be aloof. The original concept of "elf" was basically an aasimar that could fly, become immaterial, charm people, and all sorts of crazy magical powers.

Personally I favor the Germanic rendition of elves as fae who can be malicious or manevolent based on the time of day, moon cycle, whether or not a brownish-red leaf landed on the third rock in the forest's smallest stream, etc.

Drakyn
2010-01-15, 01:35 PM
I disagree - humans' ambition and strength does not come from being arrogant. Rather, they realize the other races have inherent advantages (such as longer lifespans), so humans have something to prove. Arrogance from a human would mean being convinced we are superior and resting on our laurels, but humans in fantasy do the exact opposite - we expand aggressively and subjugate the other races without even thinking precisely because we don't consider ourselves innately superior. That perceived weakness makes us try all the harder.

I'd like to randomly pop in and remark that this specific type of trope always irritates me. If a nonhuman species is godmoding via author fiat, it's easy to see. Humans in a setting, on the other hand, get a lot more leeway before anyone suggests that there's some sort of bias (gee, wonder why? :D). Usually it pops up as us being more adaptable/aggressive/flexible/numerous or somesuch combination of any of the above. When there's an inversion (the ultra-fast-reproducing, incredibly adaptable Moties, for example), it's always neat to watch.

Grommen
2010-01-15, 01:48 PM
Another part of the issue is that they're wrongfully arrogant. They've got a society that has existed since the creation of the world and they're barely up to the same tech level as the inferior humans. They're magical...in no appreciable way. They're smarter than us, but they require 100 years to graduate high school. And they're generally the ones behind the ancient cataclysm, the evil warlord, or the sealed evil in a can. And yet they're pissed at us for cutting down trees. :smallamused:

Or when the Cataclysm is on it's way, they just pack up and leave the world :smallbiggrin:, head West, or duck under the world and hide.

snoopy13a
2010-01-15, 02:03 PM
Or when the Cataclysm is on it's way, they just pack up and leave the world :smallbiggrin:, head West, or duck under the world and hide.

Yep, because it isn't their problem anymore even though they likely had a hand in creating it :smalltongue:

No, the simple happy races like the Halflings are the ones who have it solve it :smallsmile:

As for incompentant fantasy races, how about the Valar? They have one job, to prepare the world for elves and men. Instead of defeating Melkor, they decide to hide in the westernmost corner of the world with their elf friends. Meanwhile, the first men are left alone in Middle Earth to deal with Melkor. Melkor then proceeds to corrupt men, thus tainting Illuvater's creation.

Optimystik
2010-01-15, 02:08 PM
<_< So humans are a race of determinators (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Determinator) and that's where that extra feat comes from, eh?

Quite so - it's All There In The Manual (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllThereInTheManual). (Specifically, Races of Destiny.)


I'd like to randomly pop in and remark that this specific type of trope always irritates me. If a nonhuman species is godmoding via author fiat, it's easy to see. Humans in a setting, on the other hand, get a lot more leeway before anyone suggests that there's some sort of bias (gee, wonder why? :D). Usually it pops up as us being more adaptable/aggressive/flexible/numerous or somesuch combination of any of the above. When there's an inversion (the ultra-fast-reproducing, incredibly adaptable Moties, for example), it's always neat to watch.

Oh, I'm a big fan of more aggressive, more adaptable races (e.g. the Zerg.) The problem is that those are usually distinguished from humanity via a hive mind, whereas humans draw strength from individuality.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 02:17 PM
to be fair, humans are innately superior...
They get a bonus feat, extra skillpoints, and have a favored class of "any".... and no LA.
Compare that to some useless things like "sleep only 4 hours and get a +2 vs mind effects" and you see humans are better. :)

Drakyn
2010-01-15, 02:40 PM
Oh, I'm a big fan of more aggressive, more adaptable races (e.g. the Zerg.) The problem is that those are usually distinguished from humanity via a hive mind, whereas humans draw strength from individuality.
I just had another random thought - writing a hive mind in a way that doesn't make it Obviously Evil or a big fat pile of "why aren't you enlightened" is probably very hard.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 02:43 PM
I just had another random thought - writing a hive mind in a way that doesn't make it Obviously Evil or a big fat pile of "why aren't you enlightened" is probably very hard.

its the failing of a human author of average intelligence trying to write for a mind orders of magnitude more complex... it is like a bee trying to write a realistic human.

hamishspence
2010-01-15, 02:47 PM
Simon R. Green did both types in the Deathstalker books (esper Oversoul falling into one category, the Mater Mundi falling into the other- in the same book (Deathstalker Destiny).

The two seem to be common Hive Mind tropes.

TheCountAlucard
2010-01-15, 02:49 PM
It is important to point out that elves are clearly, and visibly, deeply flawed.

Despite all their 'obvious advantages', how little have they achieved? They did not build the dominant culture of the world, they did not conquer the world...You're absolutely right about that... that would be the sahuagin. :smallcool:

golentan
2010-01-15, 02:51 PM
I just had another random thought - writing a hive mind in a way that doesn't make it Obviously Evil or a big fat pile of "why aren't you enlightened" is probably very hard.

It shouldn't be. Humans are just prejudiced by their focus on individuality.

Yukitsu
2010-01-15, 02:51 PM
We had an elf like that in our group. He ended up getting eaten when he tried to talk down to a Tiamat cultist riding a blue dragon. :smallbiggrin:

Ironically, mine got eaten by things a few times to solve problems, because in my words, "There aren't many problems you can't fix by getting eaten. <_<

chiasaur11
2010-01-15, 03:40 PM
You're absolutely right about that... that would be the sahuagin. :smallcool:

Or possibly Kobolds.

(They're just sneaky about it.)

jmbrown
2010-01-15, 04:12 PM
You're absolutely right about that... that would be the sahuagin. :smallcool:

Unless the world you live in doesn't have Earth proportions of water to land.

TheCountAlucard
2010-01-15, 04:22 PM
Unless the world you live in doesn't have Earth proportions of water to land.Shh! Do you want them to come up here? :smalltongue:

I wonder what ever happened to the Keebler Elves? They never seemed very arrogant to me, aside from assuming that baking cookies in a tree would never have any drawbacks...

Ormur
2010-01-15, 04:36 PM
If elves live the stereotypical treehugging, harmonious lifestyle then their density is probably much lover than that of human farming societies. That's fine, low density is less taxing on the environment and requires less effort to survive but more density usually results in a more complex and innovative society. Intensive farming spurs innovation to keep society fed and more people that live closer together discover new things faster. It's therefore not surprising that humans should caught up with the older and longer lived elves. But elves are usually still depicted as holding their own. On the other hand more density can result in Malthusian catastrophes when the strain on the environment grows to much or the climate changes, diseases are more easily spread and wars over limited land more common.

Neither elven or human societies can therefore be considered superior to the other. Elves are individually probably better off but there are more humans.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 04:45 PM
diseases are more easily spread and wars over limited land more common.
While as an individual, those are "bad things", from a species standpoint, both are great boon and advance your development (only those with the best immune system survive, only the most competent combatants).


Neither elven or human societies can therefore be considered superior to the other. Elves are individually probably better off but there are more humans.

If you bother to define superior, then by most definitions humans are vastly superior to elves. better tech development, better immune system development, etc etc...

absolmorph
2010-01-15, 05:01 PM
From Eragon.
To be fair, if I was an elf from Eragon, I'd be pretty arrogant, too.
At least I'd have a reason for it, though, unlike now.

paddyfool
2010-01-15, 05:50 PM
Tolkein's various races always seemed somewhat akin to the whole British class system, with his elves akin to the upper classes...

Later developments were basically trying to justify a balanced game-world ("So, elves are really, really long lived, and smart, and magically attuned... why aren't they in charge? I know, let's have them be non-materialistic/be hopelessly factionalised/be universally hated/have children no more than once every sixty years/be total dilettantes/be blinded by their arrogance/all of the above"). But yeah, the arrogance stems primarily from the long age, as said by earlier posters. If I'd been around since AD 1000, I'd probably be pretty arrogant as well.

Thames
2010-01-15, 07:19 PM
Yes, the elves created magic, then sat on it for millenia, doing nothing.
Yes, the dwarves invented mettalurgy, then sat on it for millenia, doing nothing.

Also, being far faster, humans would have invented both in time. But being inquisitive, they discoved it by observation (of elves and dwarves) rather than experimentation first.

It's all fluff, and it's all opinion and perspective. If you like the old races, you will portray them in that light. If you like humans, vice versa.

The really important thing to remember is that none of it is real. There is no official yardstick for humans, elves or dwarves, so anyones opinion is equally valid.

The elves didnt sit on it for millenia they came up with it over millenia as (just as it took human in real life to do) then they reached the peak of the world technological capacity (dnd worlds clearly having different physics to normal ones)

They didn't discover purely by obsevation pretty much every setting I've seen has them flat out given some cause they couldn't figure it out for themselves.

Your last point is true but your first post made no indication as such instead had a "human's are superior" air to it. Especially considering that having elves in stasis is fluff and no campaign setting has to use it (and none I've seen actually does). If you don't like a species acting superior but being in stasis but can't envision elves any other way (than superior) than you use different fluff (as every setting I've seen does but for some reason people ignore it)

One of my points is human AREN'T far faster or faster at all unless the fluff has it as such - and nearly no setting has them as faster unless they are also more reckless and screw up 10 times more often (and learn 10 times less from the error). In these settings the elves are right to act superior - stability isn't anything to sneeze at.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 07:36 PM
I think the big problem is that elves live close a 1000 years.
Imagine if einstein, neuton, galileo, and pretty much every other famous researcher did not die of age before the age of 100?
neuton invented calculus... he started working on physics and notice that there is not a math capable of doing what he wanted... so he just sat down and invented calculus... then he used that to practically invent physics. Imagine what he could do in 1000 years..

Heck, programmers, linguistics... you know there was a man who was inventing a mechanical computer in the 1700s? and a woman wrote the first program for it...
this reminds me, elves are also made to be immune to disease, which is another big issue... humans keep on dying from disease just as they are starting to do something great.

Humans have to be vastly superior to a race so slow that it takes 120 years to reach the mental maturity, intelligence, and educational background of an 18 year old human.

If you say elves live to the same age as humans, and are as fertile... all problems are solved. Elves are just pointy eared humans with a penchant for magic (please also change their class feature from "detect secret doors and traps automatically, not sleep, and +dex -con" to something good for wizards... elves make the perfect rogues but damn terrible wizards)

Yukitsu
2010-01-15, 07:42 PM
Technically, elves are mentally mature at 25. They are not emotionally mature until they are 100 or so, but who cares about that?

As for learning, think about priorities. Humans learn a ton to try and escape poverty, to gain recognition and to better human lives. Occassionally to hurt other people. When you have lots of magic, don't die of disease, but at an incredibly old age of boredom, and have a happy egalitarian society, you simply don't priotize what we have that highly.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 07:46 PM
elves don't have bordom?
heck, elves don't have CURIOSITY? I assure you most 10 year old geeks who study a lot about the natural world study because it is fun... not because they are trying to escape "poverty" or because they know their death is "imminent" (only 60-90 years at most; assuming a "natural" death). Not every human is like that, but a sufficient amount of our population is, we have insatiable desire for knowledge for the sake of knowledge, curiosity for the sake of learning.

If elves lack that then they are inferior creatures.

Optimystik
2010-01-15, 07:48 PM
If you say elves live to the same age as humans, and are as fertile... all problems are solved. Elves are just pointy eared humans with a penchant for magic (please also change their class feature from "detect secret doors and traps automatically, not sleep, and +dex -con" to something good for wizards... elves make the perfect rogues but damn terrible wizards)

Well, you forgot Grey Elves (Sun Elves in Faerun) but I agree with the rest.

taltamir
2010-01-15, 07:56 PM
Actually... I think I am gonna do that right now...
the remade elf...

Medium size.
An elf’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Magic Affinity: +1 racial bonus to effective caster level in any magic using class.
Automatic Languages: Common, Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan.
Favored Class: Wizard.

Elves are humans with pointy ears that are naturally attuned to magic. they sleep normally, see normally, hear normally, age normally, etc. Their only differences compared to a human are described above.

A half-elf half-human is born with either the human fast learning trait (bonus feat and extra skillpoints), or with the magic affinity.

Elves who live in the forst, seashore, the sun, the moon, the gray, etc are identical to the above template, although they might have different colored skin, hair, eyes, and subtly different facial features.
With the exception of Drow who gain infravision, but are blinded by light.

Ormur
2010-01-15, 08:45 PM
While as an individual, those are "bad things", from a species standpoint, both are great boon and advance your development (only those with the best immune system survive, only the most competent combatants).

That's why I said individual elves are probably better of but there are more humans which is probably the least subjective measure of a species success. The biomass of humans is greater than that of elves, hence they are more successful but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's better to be a human than an elf.


If you bother to define superior, then by most definitions humans are vastly superior to elves. better tech development, better immune system development, etc etc...

You can define superiority like that but if the elves can get by without those things there's nothing objectively superior to human society. In most settings humans aren't depicted as overrunning elven societies in the manner of Eurasians conquering the Americas. Perhaps the head start, magic, less isolation and the longevity, plus other factors that stem from them being another species (race, whatever) have been enough to keep the more numerous humans at bay. Low density societies in Eurasia managed to survive until the industrial revolution. We can't make direct comparisons between fantasy worlds and history.

Yukitsu
2010-01-15, 09:19 PM
elves don't have bordom?
heck, elves don't have CURIOSITY? I assure you most 10 year old geeks who study a lot about the natural world study because it is fun... not because they are trying to escape "poverty" or because they know their death is "imminent" (only 60-90 years at most; assuming a "natural" death). Not every human is like that, but a sufficient amount of our population is, we have insatiable desire for knowledge for the sake of knowledge, curiosity for the sake of learning.

If elves lack that then they are inferior creatures.

We have all those, but you'll note that it's generally directed to things such as weapons of war, medicine, the readily observable universe. Basically, at things that we prioritize because we're squishy mortals that would rather not be. Lately, we've been turning to other things, like unraveling the universe in a matter more objective than simply stating it is the way we want/our god wants it to be seen, but that's not really a part of the D&D setting either.